Delphi Murders /// 4 Years Later /// Part 1 /// 468 | Forensic Files

when it comes to Quality sleep Ashley has you covered with top mattress brands at winning prices and with special
financing options available you can snooze now and pay later plus your mattress purchase helps give the gift of
better sleep to children in need and US Special Operations forces visit your local Ashley store or shop online today
and make every snooze count financing is subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for d details dreaming of
overseas Adventures or connecting more deeply with family from afar Rosetta Stone Bridges the language Gap I've
tried others but Rosetta Stone's immersive lessons and voice feedback technology are gamechangers dive into 25
Languages by learning intuitively just like when you were a kid and here's the holiday Sparkle grab a lifetime
membership now and save 50% gift yourself the world head to rosettastone.com now and save 50%
[Music] % [Music] welcome to True cribe garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who gives you the power to put True Crime Garage in your
radio ladies and gentlemen the captain that's right you True Crime addicts it's Power Hour it's good to be seen and it's
good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a [Music] friend this week we are very happy to be
featuring High Pines by the absolutely fantastic Brewers creating magic over at Highland Brewing Company cheers to Eva
and the Highland team High Pines is a big IPA not too bitter a little sweet medium bodied with fruit flavor that
lingers on the pallet garage grade four out of five bottle caps and let's give some thanks and praise to our good
garage friends first up cheers to Wanita in Clarksburg California I Wanita beer and a big we like your JY to Jennifer in
Toronto and here we have Anna who's sending a big cheers from Denmark and a big shout out to Alicia in Schwarz Creek
Michigan next up we have a shout to Wendy down in San Antonio Texas and last but certainly not least we have a big
Ron Swanson please and thank you to our friend Kathleen o in Laguna Nill California everyone we just mentioned
went to truecrime garage.com and contributed to this week's beer fund and for that we thank you say it with me bwe
r n beer run for everything True Crime Check out true Crim garage.com also check out our bonus show
off the record only on Citra premium and that is enough of the business all right
everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime
[Music] [Music] guys [Music] still tonight four years later and no arrest in the deli case as the days
continue to pass on we keep asking Indiana State Police are they getting any closer to a break in this double
homicide case it's been four years since the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German and still the voice of of
the suspected killer continues to haunt Deli Indiana that audio clip of the Killer's
voice telling the girls to go down the hill was released by Indiana State Police investigators say Libby recorded
the suspect's voice and snapped this photo on her cell phone before her young life was taken away
guys tonight the killer still on the Run being chased down by many of the investigators who've been out there
since day one like Carol County Sheriff to lesen seems like it was just yesterday when we started this thing
13-year-old Abby and 14-year-old Libby were out on a walk on the deli historic Trails on February 13th of 2017 when
investigators say they were approached by this man the girl's bodies were found the next day in the woods about a mile
off of the main trail in 2019 Indiana State Police released an updated sketch of the suspect that composite looked
nothing like like this previous sketch which had been the face of the investigation for 2 years it's like wait
a minute now we got to start all over and we got to explain why they're doing what they're doing they've obviously
received enough information on the first sketch to realize that that person isn't
the right one several agencies still working this investigation all of them were having like a team weekly meeting
in doai the Carol County Sheriff dedicated two detectives in his small Department to follow up on leits basic
footwork leg work so to say phone calls what was this individual um doing on February 13th 2017 you know were they at
work were they traveling for the past four years police have served search warrants questioned Persons of Interest
and received thousands of tips still no arrest we still have those up and down days I guess is the easiest way to put
[Music] it [Music] the general statement across the board from law enforcement and the Press is
that there is no new news in the 4-year-old Deli murders case and Captain I say we got to get rolling we got to
jump right in because no new news heck we got a whole bunch of stuff to talk about here first it was announced that
there would be no press conference on the 4th anniversary of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams the
two middle school students who went for a hike on the monan High Bridge Trail in
2017 and did not return alive a questions about the case from both the local community and across the nation
and Beyond have been escalating for more than two years years so a few weeks ago
the local newspaper the Carol County comment ran the following readers invited to submit questions about double
homicide Carol County Sheriff Tobe lesen agreed to answer questions solicited by
the comment from readers and others all right Captain let's Dive Right into this
I actually submitted some questions myself hoping that they would be chosen and we might get some answers to these
questions so the questions I sent in are as follows first I did a little butt kiss and it it always helps to do a
little uh you know Grease the wheels a bit here well it's better to do butt kissing than butt sniffing there you go
so I started off by saying dear Sheriff lesby thank you for your hard work and continued efforts on this very difficult
case I truly appreciate the dedication shown by you in the Caroll County Sheriff's department now for the
brilliant questions is there any reason to believe the killer had some kind of help or assistance and is this making
this difficult case even more complicated than normal by help or assistance specifically I mean a second
perpetrator or maybe someone who dropped the man off or picked him up or do you think someone is providing a false Alibi
well I also think people lean to the idea that there's two individuals because there's two sketches and they
look so dramatically different from each other yes and you've often heard me say
that I believe that the bridge guy has some kind of help I don't know what that is and again it could be someone
unknowingly helping this guy or even willingly the second question I submitted was if the man on the bridge
was totally alone where do you think he parked his vehicle if a vehicle was used
at all again a great question and this is is something that law enforcement pointed out as one of kind of their
updates was they were looking for a vehicle they never tell you the color the make or the model they don't tell
you if it's a sedan or if it's a truck but there is a vehicle that they wanted people to come forward if they saw it I
believe on the 13th uh no update from law enforcement on that vehicle I would have to go back
to our previous Deli murders shows which we've done seven of of them so far the first was Deli Murders episodes one and
two parts one and two I'm sorry episodes 110 and 111 this is back from May 2017 so we've been there since the
beginning and we've continued to cover this case and look into it when something new comes out and one of the
great things about this case about the True Crime community and this case is right from the beginning people were
promoting pictures that law enforcement put out the sketches that they put out then we've had some updates a big change
2 years after the murders when they released the new photos but we've also had some big Publications on this a
podcast that was pretty huge down the hill and then just recently released around the 4-year anniversary the down
the hill documentary on HLN yeah we Revisited the case in July of 2019 and this would be after that big press
conference with the news updates when they changed to the new sketch and said the old sketch would now become
secondary it was during that news conference that they also released information about the vehicle that you
just mentioned I do believe there was some very brief and vague description I would have to refer back to those
episodes but our first two episodes there was really nothing as far as good information the timeline was much
shorter than what we now know it to be so really we were able to lay out a really good detailed timeline with much
speculation in those later Deli episodes which again we did four parts in July of
2019 so again sticking with the vehicle idea my third question is is there still
reason to believe that the vehicle previously mentioned in news releases is in fact involved or has that vehicle
been cleared as you said Captain they asked for tips about this vehicle we've received no update as to if it's still
information that they're even looking for at this point right and in some interviews I've seen law enforcement
still state that they believe they're one tip away from solving this case so without the long lead in I'm now going
to go through through the questions that were selected and the answers provided to those questions by the sheriff in
charge Tobe lesen the Carrol County comment starts off by saying there are five sections of
questions to this story that's pretty interesting they broke them down into a few different sections to keep it nice
and neat and easy to follow for the reader and the five sections are as follows those specific to the double
homicide case questions concerning internal and external Communications questions about the crime
scene and adjacent terrain questions about the command center and questions about the overall safety of Carol
County the first question Captain is do you consider this a cold case and why and Sheriff Tobe lesen responds
absolutely not a true Cold Case provides no leads no information to follow into this is not the situation with the Abby
and Libby investigation our investigators are still on a daily basis receiving information which can be
looked into in essence the well has not gone dry he says well what's really interesting about the down the hill HLN
documentary is when they talk about the early involvement with the FBI how they didn't hesitate they got him involved at
one point the FBI agent said there was hundreds of Agents working this case next question how would this case be
handled from the beginning had there not been any audio slide of the person of interest answer obviously we would have
had to rely on other evidence gained from all sources is there any area that you can see like I just said there was
hundreds of FBI agents work in this case is there anything that sticks out at you
that you would have done differently if you were in charge of the investigation that's very difficult to answer because
I don't know what information they know to be fact right that that we are uncertain of stuff that's probably just
been speculation and rumored about so far in this investigation I did recall hearing Tobe
lesen be say you know he was asked one of course he's asked this question here but uh he was asked a similar
question some different words involved but very similar question and one thing he did say was you know we called some
dogs in some blood hounds that were going to come in and help us search for the girls when they were still missing
right and he says you know if I could go back and do it again what they did was when they found the girls Unfortunately
they find them dead when they found the girls these dogs were being brought in from out of town if not out of state we
called that off and he says if I could go back and change at least one thing I would have
changed that I would have still let the dog show up because maybe they could have provided a a trail maybe not
necessarily to the killer but at least the dogs may have been able to follow the Killer and we might have been able
to learn some of his movements or at the very least what way he he left this area
right because I I think the difficult thing here is I don't think there's any clear going back over all the interviews
going back over different podcast episodes and the documentary I don't think there's any clear definitive
eyewitness that can say I absolutely saw bridg man enter or leave the park I think there's people that believe they
saw Bridgeman but then they say uh I think I saw Bridgeman but he didn't have his jacket on at that point so again I
think this is a big misstep and one of the the things when you look at the crime scene we know that this
perpetrator took these victims down across the river to the other side did he come back across that River leave the
park entrance or was his vehicle parked somewhere else or did he leave on foot and I think if you look at the two in
the close proximity of the crime scene there's multiple locations on that river that look like you can cross like a a
bed of rocks or where it's just very low water and there's Pebbles and stuff around so I think that dogs would have a
really good shot at keeping the scent of the perpetrator and one thing that the sheriff is on record as saying is that
look we have a lot of what he calls very good speculation about what direction and how the perpetrator would exit this
area but he said it's just that it's just very good speculation we do not know for certain how he left this area
did one or more than one set of footprints lead Searchers to the area where the girls were found and lesen
gives the following answer this speaks to an evidentiary aspect of the investigation and I would respectfully
prefer not to answer this is interesting because I I don't know if you've seen this or heard this before about the
potential of footprint that being from bridge guy and or the victims or both that may have led the
people looking for liby and Abbey to their bodies I I had not seen this speculation before it's it's certainly
not out of bounds it's something anybody would have thought of I had always heard
the rumor that there was something that alerted one of the Searchers and kind of
got their attention MH and at the same time they very quickly saw what they thought could be one of the victims and
then they they walked in that direction and confirmed it was what they thought they were seeing well what we do know is
confirmed with law enforcement is like I said the perpetrator took the victims across water so even if the ground is
hard and not leaving footprints around the Water Area there could be some muddy spots and if the perpetrator CR that
water multiple times good possibility that somewhere he left a footprint is there partial DNA or a full DNA profile
of the suspect if there is DNA has it been run against a genealogy DNA database and his answer is very similar
this also speaks to evidentiary aspect of the investigation so he declines to answer however he is on record saying we
do have DNA now is it it that of The Killers we don't know yeah it's very difficult here there's a lot of
Rumblings online that I've heard that they do have DNA I obviously can't confirm that but the other rumor that I
hear is that this individual was at one of the searches and from people being at
the search they said well look there was tons of people in the community searching and what were they doing they
were smoking cigarettes they were drinking bottled water so does dipping what do you say after
every episode don't Litter mhm these individuals were littering all over so is it possible that from one of these
items they have DNA but it's not actually at the crime scene it's just with inside the park yeah so let's take
that a step further I I believe if I'm going to kind of read between the lines here and try to figure out what what it
is that he is saying or what it is that he isn't saying uh because these are two very different
answers when asked in person he says yes we have DNA we just don't know if it belongs to the killer or not keep in
mind the questions we're going through here today I believe that these questions were submitted to the sheriff
and he's able to sit down read through them and think very clearly he doesn't have to think on the Fly he can pick and
choose which ones he's going to answer and that's why I think you get different answers at different times when he's
interviewed in person he's a little more forthcoming and I think it's because it
shows his General nature he wants to be a little more transparent he wants his agency to be the the heroes for this
community this community is in desperate need of a hero or Heroes to find bridg guy and and hold him responsible for
this terrible act what we have here Captain I I have to look at his words and say okay well what what does that
mean as far as the DNA goes well it means a few different things to me one the DNA has to be of a type that you can
immediately go I can't connect this to the killer because we've reviewed enough cases that there are certain types of
DNA that if found you know the likelihood of it belonging to the Killer is like 99% chance right if if we were
to find Sean in the direct area or of the victim are on the victims M you would expect that to be from the killer
if you found blood that didn't belong to the victims on the victims or near the victims you would believe that that came
from the killer so I don't think we're talking about that type of DNA I think we're probably working with either touch
DNA or like you said saliva or DNA that would have been transferred to an item that would have been discarded in the
area the problem with this doesn't necessarily have to be the Searchers themselves that certainly can add to it
but this is a this is outdoors this is a public place there could be beer bottles
or cigarette butts or any type of debris that they could find someone's DNA on they just don't know if it's related to
that case to to this double homicide was that debris discarded there on the day that the victims were killed I think
ultimately that's the Crux of this case and the the downfall of this case is most cases don't get a spotlight this
one did the evidence that they do have they have to keep close to their chest but they keep getting the
spotlight so they they're trying to give the information out but again they have
to keep things close to the chest and I think that's because it's getting such a
big Spotlight that's what leads to rumors conspiracy theories and and a bunch of other stuff the public has been
given two sketches is the thought there is more than one person involved or is the second sketch the suspected killer
please clarify the two sketches this has been a point of confusion since the second sketch was released and his
answer is these were produced by information gained from Witnesses near the area during the time frame the
primary focus by invest ators is on the second sketch well and Kelsey Libby's sister I think 3 weeks ago in an
interview that I was listening to they were asking her about the second sketch she never mentioned that they got it
from eyewitnesses she said law enforcement told her new technology is the reason why that there was a second
sketch and what a frustrating thing and maybe a misstep in this investigation to
spend 2 years of your life doing nothing but promoting this picture to turn around and and try to go back to those
same resources and outlets and say oh by the way that picture is not correct here's the one that we want you to
present to the public and that's certainly a possibility but I want to Echo what what the sheriff is saying
here because that's been their stance from Jump Street and it's been the the The Stance of the sheriff's office as
well as the Indiana State Police both agencies have always said that the second sketch was based off of witnesses
that were near the area during the time frame and they're really they're really honing in on the day that the the two
girls went missing and that's the information that they are very strong on and really looking for more information
regarding that day not as much the second day the day that the two were found the next question is was video
collected throughout Deli from February 13 2017 including video from the building across from the abandoned CPS
building multiple pieces of evidence including anything technologically based have been gained at least information
followed into or brought to the attention by the investigators at least information followed into or brought to
the attention by the investigators is the second part of his answer which seems a little bizarre to me if you can
get surveillance footage from anywhere surrounding the park the bridge those private properties right any way in and
out I'm hoping that they didn't just sit back and wait for people to bring that to their
attention the investigators need to be out pounding on doors pounding the pavement and collecting that information
themselves they They Knew by noon or 1 on the 14th MH this is a double homicide I I guess maybe he's
just giving a a um a PC answer I don't know but it seems a little weird the wording brought to the attention of the
investigators well again we have zero evidence or zero confirmation that any eyewitness or surveillance was caught of
a guy covered in blood and I believe this indiv would have been covered and blood I think it would been absolutely
impossible for him not to be and then I don't really understand this question I'll read it though captain and if you
uh can figure it out just uh throw something at me and and tell me what's up question no matter how distant do you
have the man walking on the bridge videoed by Libby on any other video okay I see what they're saying now do do we
have video of him doing anything else or is there any other another video of this
man I guess walking elsewhere or seen elsewhere his answer is this is close to an evidentiary information question and
I prefer not to respond this is interesting because we we know his statement of however Bridge guy left the
area is all speculation it might be very good and very informed speculation but we can't safe or certain how he left the
area if you had other video of this guy of bridge guy on any type of surveillance footage or or anything
that's in this question here you think that would help them pinpoint that down a little
better I I have a hard time though believing that there's no other footage of this guy anywhere else I I probably
would lean more towards the the thought that there is video of this dude someplace else they just don't know that
it's him like if you have some bad distant grainy footage of of of random people walking somewhere you might be
able to go well he might be in this footage but we have six people 10 people 18 people in this footage that are all
unidentified what we do know about the bridge guy picture it's coming from video that Libby took the speculation at
first was that it didn't come from her nobody knew that a lot of people thought it came from like a trail cam or
something so maybe that's also why people are going hey well if if we thought the original picture came from a
trail cam there must be a bunch of trail cams out there and did one of them pick
up and take a picture of the murderer mhm well this goes to that same thought why have no other pictures from Libby's
phone been released to the public and he gives a similar answer this is close to
an evidentiary information question and I prefer not to respond but again when he's interviewed in person we get a
a slightly different answer to a slightly similar question and it was look we have additional video we have
additional audio however there's nothing and I believe his exact words were something
like there's nothing Earth shattering that would be on there that would help anybody in the public go okay well now I
know who this is I think that Echoes what something we've said before we have to believe that they've provided us with
probably the best portion of that video for us to look at they've probably provided us with the best portion of
that audio for us to hear that's the best chance that the public can help to identify this guy or submit the right
tip that will lead to an arrest in the deli [Music] case [Music] this show is sponsored by better help do
you look forward to the holidays maybe you struggle with seasonal Blues this time of year can be a lot and it's
natural to feel some sadness or even anxiety about it but adding something new and positive to your life can
counteract some of those feelings therapy can be a bright spot something to look forward to to make you feel
grounded and to give you the tools to manage everything going on if you're thinking of starting therapy give better
help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to
your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapist
at any time for no additional charge find your bright spot this season with better help visit betterhelp.com
Garay to get 10% off your first month that's better help hp.com dreaming of overseas Adventures
or connecting more deeply with family from afar Rosetta Stone Bridges the language Gap I've tried others but
Rosetta Stone's immersive lessons and voice feedback technology are game changers dive into 25 Languages by
learning intuitively just like when you were a kid and here's the holiday Sparkle grab a lifetime membership now
and save 50% gift yourself the world head to rosettastone.com now and save 50% you can live out your Master Chef
dreams when you find a professional on Angie to tackle your dream kitchen remodel connect with skilled
professionals to get all your home projects done well visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie
[Music] that [Music] all right welcome back cheers mates you always make us feel so welcome there
Captain well I just want to go back again it's the Crux of the case you ask for a bunch of
questions all your answers are going to be well we can't share that information mhm I
mean again a lot of cases don't get the spotlight that this one 's getting I I'm
so happy that 4 years later we're still talking about it we still care we we still want answers we still want Justice
and people are trying to do everything they can it's it's almost like here's my other issue you collected the questions
you sat down and took the time to answer them why not just every question that you're going to answer is the ones that
you put out to the public the ones that you say well well we can't answer that we have it's there's evidence there and
we can't release that you don't need to print that well I think you got to keep in mind we got two different entities at
work here we have the the newspaper who collected all the questions decided which ones would be asked to the sheriff
submitted them to the sheriff and then he's he's answering the questions back to the newspaper and then they're the
ones printing them so they would have had hundreds of these questions if not maybe a thousand or two and they're the
ones that are kind of curating if you will the questions that are submitted to the the sheriff and I think in you know
just to be jally responsible right they're trying to be transparent correct so the next question is why have you
never released the FBI's suspect profile to the public and Toby's answer is it has been discussed with the FBI but
again it is currently felt it is too close to the evidentiary element now we talked earlier about what would I have
done different or or you or or anybody else out there this is something I would pivot from I would I would pivot to if
you do have an FBI profile pivot if you if you have one and you think that it's good that needs to be released pivot
that should be released to the public I I well I think the profile might be more
important than the actual sketch because I think a lot of the sketch is coming from that F that video and that is so
grainy that I look the guys down the hill audio was cleaned up and as a audio engineer I would tell you that clip is
completely dirty and that's cleaned up by people that are connected to the FBI so I think the these sketches especially
after four years have done a lick of good other than maybe create some speculation on the internet if they
would have released the profile with the sketch people would have started eliminating people right away and not
set in as many tips and maybe not sent you on as many wild goose chases are there regrets about not securing the
morning Heights Cemetery as a possible part of the crime scene and then they go on to say I.E possible exit route of the
killer or Killers his answer is at the time it was uncertain exactly what the totality of the circumstances were yeah
I get that and I and I'm on his side you they didn't know exactly what they were
dealing with and right it's it's hard to go back in time you can't and and change
certain aspects of your investigation question do investigators believe the bridge photo and voice
belong to the same person and this is a question that keeps good question it's a
good question it keeps recycling this question over and over again though throughout the the years here and his
simple answer is yes uh we believe the bridge photo and voice belong to the same person right which makes me believe
that it's one perpetrator right and we have Doug Carter from the Indiana State Police who said in the the famous press
conference the 2-year press conference he said you know the voices you hear remember before it was just down the
hill right and then it became guys down the hill he specifically said before releasing that
audio that the voice you are hearing is one person the day the girls were found how
quickly were you personally on the scene how quickly was the crime scen secured how many police and emergency response
individuals were physically present at the crime scene what departments were represented at the scene his answer as I
recall a very short amount of time less than an hour by law enforcement immediately I do not recall without
referencing reports mainly Sheriff's Office Indiana State Police and the FBI well I think at one point there's a
statement in the documentary again it's a documentary so it might not be factual
but they claimed that there was at least four crime scene technicians investigating the crime scene and
basically saying that there was tons of evidence that they were able to collect at the crime scene and I can't recall
100% Captain but I think that the person that gave that statement was from Deli Police Department or Indiana State
Police it was a member of law enforcement that said that that there were four crime scene technicians on the
scene and that I think he said they worked the scene for about 4 days alog together so a lot of time spent there
and you wouldn't spend that long of time at the crime scene if you weren't continually finding new pieces of
evidence or just pieces of anything really because you don't know what is evidence and what is just what was just
already there I think that because the murders took place Outdoors because the victims are found
outdoors and this is an area that uh while very remote where the bodies were found this is also parts of this area
are high traffic as far as foot traffic goes I think that that complicates things and that that adds to the list of
things that you collected during that time when you're when you're trying to piece everything together what you what
you do is you collect everything you can possibly find mhm and then later determine if it has anything
the crime at all now when you say high foot traffic areas the bridge well yes I would guess
the uh the moanin high trail system itself um the bridge maybe but uh yeah the the other side of the bridge is not
going to be have the same level of foot traffic you know and and again certainly
where the girls are found is not going to have nearly the amount of foot traffic as you would expect on the trail
system itself yes and and there was also some foot traffic some people instead of
taking the trails they would follow the river line so there would be some foot traffic along the River Line yeah and
the the other issue too becomes that you have such a big area to cover as far as
the crime scene techs go right because we know that at least an article of clothing was found in the creek itself
the bodies were not found in the water so I mean you can and then the we know that the bridge guy was on the bridge
and the victims were on the bridge we know that they were dropped off at the trail head and walked the trail system
to get to the bridge so you can see if you close your eyes and try to imagine as you hear the words coming out of my
mouth you can see this crime scene just growing and growing and growing uh very quickly for investigators well and we
also know that we have a a shoe that was found and we know that her phone wasn't
found at the the the crime scene so you have to take those pieces of information
and triangulate all of that together where was the phone found that's not clear but it it's clear that it wasn't
like connected to the the crime scene maybe it was on the other side of the river I'm not really for sure it's just
the statement they made they found the phone because of it pinging off the towers when they found the bodies and
when they found the phones were separate times so that is what leads me to believe that the phone was not in the
same location as the bodies right that's why what I wanted to clarify because the
whole place is a crime scene right so it found at the crime scene just not right
with the bodies is what what we believe in the public domain there have been descriptions of the crime scene
descriptions of items found and the positioning of the body do you feel there was an excessive
number of persons present once it was determined to be a crime scene I guess there the simplest form of this question
would be were there too many people involved in the search that they have contaminated the crime scene and once
you go from looking for two girls that are alive and well or or maybe injured or just lost to you now know you have
two murder victims mhm how quickly were you able to to secure the scene to make sure that it wasn't trampled all over
and his answer is once secured by law enforcement as a crime scene no I would surmise that Searchers did not
immediately know what they had come upon that's interesting because when we had the former prosecutor come out and I I
think this is a little irresponsible but whatever I'm irresponsible myself I'm I'm not I'm no saint captain but when
the former prosecutor came out and said that there were signatures left by the killer at the crime scene and and
specifically where the bodies were found and he said that he he would label that as three or four signatures and
then another person from law enforcement asked a very similar question provi once
provided with that information from the former prosecutor pretty much confirmed that that there would have been about
three or four different signatures now I've seen the public hears this and they go crazy they go crazy trying to figure
out what those signatures could be and of course a lot of people's minds go to something very bizarre that you would
see in some not so great thriller movie out there one of the things that that I saw that was speculated and and maybe
continues to be to this day was that the killer wrote a word or words at sever places in the crime scene and one that
gets a little difficult because they're Outdoors so where is he writing this did
he bring things with him to leave leave a note or more specifically I've seen it
discussed that it was one word in particular that was just written over and over again and to me that seems
very very much like a psychological Thriller Vita cheesy type movie thing here and what we do have though is we
have the sheriff who's saying look law enforcement got there as soon as we could obviously the Searchers found them
first but we got there as soon as we could and as soon as we were there it was a crime scene and it was secured and
we pushed everybody out of the area and he goes on to say that he would surmise that most of the Searchers were
not really aware of what they had come upon the Searchers coming upon two victims and not really understanding
what they've come upon kind of contradicts the idea that there was some kind of display made of the crime scene
yeah I think that if if you they were able to see writing all over the place one one you'd have to if if there was
writing the obvious spot that it would be would be on the victims or their clothing because you're outdoor I think
it's it's actually very telling that that whatever these signatures are probably most of the people people in
that search party would not recognize this type of stuff to be quote unquote a signature right and like you said
there's no there probably is not some bizarre display going on at the crime scene either if if we're to believe
these words to be fact then what that means to me is that someone probably spotted a body MH and then very quickly
told people not to I'm going to walk a little bit closer to confirm that I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing and we're
calling it in we're not we're not venturing into this area well based on the HLN documentary they were saying a
Searcher actually spotted them by zooming in you know like they were looking through their phone and zooming
in on the camera mhm so maybe they spotted them from a distance so they wouldn't be able to see the signatures
also if you're around around the creek bed you wouldn't be tall enough to see over the brush to actually see the
victims because they're kind of in a dip correct and often in these search parties you know it's still very early
on that they're looking for these girls they're looking for them on the second day when they're found less than 24
hours after they went missing MH so you might have a different speech that is given but often there are you know
everyone's instructed usually in these situations to if you see this then then behave this way if you see this behave
this way and you often especially when they believe that they're looking for a victim or for evidence which is not what
they would have believed at the time they would be instructed to not approach anything if you as a Searcher if you see
this do not approach the scene do not approach this item or this article you have said you recognize the voice on the
video this is this is probably the most scary SL haunting portion of these questions you have said you recognize
the voice on the video do you recognize it as a jail inmate other law enforcement team or person you know
outside your employment sphere and lesen B says I still have not been able to pin
it down in my 30 plusy year career or even as with most of us meaning law enforcement we have heard certain voices
but have difficulty in recalling exactly who it is well a couple thoughts right away is when they're asking the parents
about what they hear or did they recognize the voice how they point out how calm the individual is and I never
really thought about the energy that the person was using that this perpetrator was using but when you listen listen
back to it the energy is very calm and I really like the idea of people pointing
out when he says you guys down the hill it's not a command it's not angry it's very authority
figure or parental figure and I think that's very important when I hear guys down the hill and exactly the the
mannerism and the tone you're right it's very quick and to the point and instructional at the same time
I to me my mind jumps to somebody that's used to directing a a group of of children or a
group of young adults MH and my mind immediately jumps to teacher and I don't know why captain please don't anybody
ston me to death in the in the center of town here but my mind jumps to gym teacher I don't know why that's always
like popped in my head of of I I think it's really the tone and the mannerism of something that's kind of a laidback
quick to the point and instructional guys down the hill yeah quick to the point point no fak and cooking MC's like
a pound of bacon um I agree with you Jim teacher look into that aspect but I think you can broaden her your horizons
a little bit somebody that might have coached Little League baseball what I would like to know because the girls
were out of school that day and that's why they were out on the trail to begin with and I do not want emails from
people that look we got a lot of people that are teachers in our audience and our listeners a lot of them are
fantastic teachers I only want to know specifically to that that school system because you know Captain everything
changes from area to area right and even even on the calendar year for a school in particular but for that direct
community and that direct school system I would love to know because the girls were off of school that day were the
teachers off as well or was that a day where the teachers would have been working in some capacity but without
students next question the families of the deli victims have appeared on countless shows and internet videos for
interviews Libby's grandfather Mike Patty stated he called cop buddies and asked if they could ping Libby's phone
were you or one of your deputies the cop buddies he called some of you will remember that when the girls were
missing Mike Patty at some point I think when we again I'd have to refer to our old episodes but I think we put this on
our timeline like in the 6:00 hour of the day that they were missing could you could you look into their phones and
Les's answer is I would suggest he was referring to someone in law enforcement and it could have been even dispatch
initially the ultimate decision was a law enforcement decision so I think what to blz and be saying here is just
because it's a cop buddy doesn't mean that it has to be somebody at his Department that Mike Patty was reaching
out to Libby's grandmother Becky Patty with whom she lived and who is the mother of her biological father Derek
German stated during an interview there were countless cars at the trails that day not all of them looking for the
girls did the Patty family post on social media the girls were missing before contacting the sheriff's
department this is interesting because I would liked a better answer here it's I
do not recall but I know we were not immediately contacted because the family did not suspect anything negative and
were simply conducting their own search right so you're like me what I'd like to know and somebody from the
community probably could let me know was this information distributed through Facebook and were people reposting this
or sharing this with uh people in the community on social media from my understanding a couple things happened
one I believe that they were on the night news now some areas that's 11:00 or 10: p.m.
I believe they were on the nighttime news with hey we got a couple missing girls and we're still out here looking
for them Mike Patty in particular is is interviewed briefly in that statement that is released to the public via the
news I do believe that Mike Patty's family somebody in the family did put something on Facebook kind of calling to
action people to come help look for the girls so this this would be an easy way to get that information out to all of
your friends and family hey if you're available can you come and help us look for these girls we don't we don't think
anything terrible has happened here we just we know that they were dropped off near the uh moan and high bridge and the
trail system there we got a lot of ground to cover it's getting dark it's getting late it's getting cold all hands
on deck we need some people to help us look for these girls so I don't know exactly what was sent out but we have St
ments by the family that they were using those methods to try to rally some troops into helping them look and just
so we're clear do you remember what time they found the bodies well it was right
around noon the next day and do you know what time the search started that day on
the 14th I believe it was at 6:00 a.m. next question is who notified Anna Williams that her child Abby was missing
and when did that that notification take place his answer is I would have to reference earlier reported information
so we don't really get an answer there question it has been stated in a press conference that quote it was all over by
3:30 on February 13th end quote this statement was based on what information his answer evidence I do not recall a
specific time though but rather a timeline this is curious to me because it doesn't really answer the
question 100% it was all over by 3:30 on February 13th I see our timeline that we've put
together and I've seen everything else that's been brought up in this case and it does in fact look to me like this is
very likely the situation that they were abducted and killed in the same area in
a very short period of time we do know from statements from law enforcement in interviews and the documentary The
Bodies were found less than a quar mile away from where the bridge ended has it been determined the girls were killed
where they were found again this is a question that keeps kind of recycling through over the years answer yes based
on information known yes question why did you and the prosecutor choose to do an interview
with headline news HLN yet ISP Indiana State Police said there would not be a press conference this year again who is
leading the case the state police the county sheriff FBI or the County prosecutor you can see the confusion for
the public and the mixed signals so to speak expand on who runs what parts of the investigation who determines when
there's a press conference this is an interesting answer in a general sense the leading agency is
the agency who routinely patrols and responds to calls for police services in a given
jurisdiction so in this case in his professional opinion the crime occurred in the county of Carol County so they
are considered to be the lead agency his Sheriff's Department the state police the FBI the prosecutor's office and the
investigators from the prosecutor's office and other agencies are considered assistant agencies coming on board to
assist the Carroll County Sheriff's Department he does go on to say being a small agency we frequently rely on
larger agencies who have many more resources to help with investigations this is commonplace throughout the
United States smaller agencies will sometimes relinquish an investigation to a larger assisting agency such as the
state police but I feel strongly that since this crime occurred in the county I feel we are the lead but with many
partners additionally when decisions which we feel are major to the case are being looked at our investigative
partners are consulted like a huge Think Tank and we all reach a decision which we all agree upon next question the
public has heard for 4 years the investigation is one puzzle piece from being solved what is that one piece
specifically is it a name is it John Doe told me he killed the kids or are you looking for confirmation of what you
know John Doe was not at work he has a blue jacket he cut his hair on February 14th or I saw a guy with a bloody jacket
at 400 p.m. on February 13th at the gas station you are not giving the public a lot to work with yet no
arrest in 4 years aren't you worried about more victims is the suspect dead or incarcerated so that is why no press
conference or additional information is being released his answer is the person specifically responsible for Abby and
Libby's death our team of trained experienced and professional investigators will know that one piece
when they see it I think that's a very clever answer by Mr lesby there yeah definitely and I and I think he's right
if if they know more than we know and they're working this case as much as they're telling us that they are that
one piece when they have it they'll they'll recognize it immediately and they will act on that information as
soon as it's presented to them I get the feeling that they know who it is or have
a good idea of who it is I think they've got a lot of tips they've ruled I think people out
they've had a lot of people that the True Crime Community has said oh we need to look into this guy this guy just
created this murder this guy is a rapist this guy is a pedo in the area well all
their DNA would be on file I believe they have some form of DNA and it's not matching those people but also these
people are not matching the signatures the profile other things I think they have a small list of people maybe if
it's not just one that they're focused on it's a small list and I think some of them I keep hearing from Kelsey that
this will be solved one day and she said in the last interview I listened to her
she said something to the the point of that this individual will slip up and I also kind of heard that you you almost
get that feeling I don't know if it was said directly like that in the documentary but you get that feeling
from from law enforcement too and so that makes me wonder if they're like well if it's not one person that they
have a small list of people and they're waiting for something to slip up I think
based off of information that we currently have where we have the sheriff saying we have DNA we just don't know if
it belongs to the killer or not we have fingerprints we don't know if they belong to the killer or not what that
would tell me is that you can't really clear anybody 100% unless they have a rock solid Alibi for the time in
question right and based off of evidence they're other than than an alibi they're
not able to clear some of these people or potential suspects however you're exactly right
Captain what they're going to do even though they cannot clear a specific person they will
prioritize these individuals and they will put some on a high priority list and some on a lower priority list
because the people on the lower priority list they may have compared things with
that individual and things at the crime scene and such and said you know what we
can't clear him but he's not a high priority for us because of a and C he doesn't fit exactly what we're
looking for because of a and C maybe it is his DNA doesn't match any that we found maybe it is that his fingerprints
do not match any that were found and even if we don't know if we have either of these things of the killer we do
suspect that we would find this person's fingerprints Andor their DNA at the scene and we don't so we make them a low
priority suspect I think the problem with the signatures is we got to take that and
look to it for future evidence because look this this guy let's say he is a serial killer there's very likely
that these might be his first two murder victims he may have committed some other
crimes along the way they usually ramp up to this but if these were his first two
murders then these signatures at the murder scene may not be signatures that would be present at at any of the other
crimes he ever committed or thought about committing and so these signatures are more something that we would use for
a future murder that oh if you saw these three or four signatures then law enforcement might believe that it's the
same guy I do like that statement by by them saying those same words that I just
used if if law enforcement recognize these same three or four signatures at a future murder we would probably
recognize immediately that it's the same guy that makes me believe that these have to be fairly specific signatures
yeah now signatures themselves can be very simplistic they don't have to be these you know crazy wild things it
could be something posing the bodies is a signature okay posing the bodies could
be mean something as little as they face them in the same direction or laid the victims out so and put their feet
together and then their arms over top of their chest it doesn't have to be anything grandiose like you would see in
Hannibal the TV show it it's it could be something as simple as they were posed in that manner they were both placed
face down and the the detectives have determined that this was they didn't fall that way that he chose to
manipulate the crime scene and place them that way and I don't want to get too much into the signature aspect of it
because these are child victims and and I I have some very strong suspicions of what I believe those signatures to be
and maybe we'll talk about that sometime on off the Record or another show but um
the thing I keep going back to Captain is what doug Carter says when he's speaking directly to the
killer around the two-year anniversary when he says I can promise you that those two girls are not in the
same way that you left them that day meaning I I feel like he manipulated the crime scene specifically the the
victim's bodies in some way and that's Doug Carter and he says that at probably one of the most emotional parts of his
press conference and I think that's his way of saying whatever image you have of your
victims in your head that's burned into your brain of how you left them that day
and the things you chose to do with the victims and the ways that you chose to manipulate the crime scene none of that
exist anymore that those victims are not the same way that you left them they're
not your victims anymore you don't hold any kind of power over over them or whatever
degrading actions you took that no longer exist you've not won we we will find you yeah which is interesting
because they're saying that the crime was sexual but they're not saying if there was assault or rape we would
assume if there was we'd have some kind of seen DNA but they're saying this is about
power and about control and that was said in the the two-year press conference so by letting them know that
this is not your crime scene anymore you don't have control over this we we gave
the victims back the power next question can you elaborate about your reference to this case as having a twist that you
have never seen before is it something more than Libby's audio recording and videotaping of their as salant or asants
and his answer is one of the main twist is that Carol County has had a high success rate of finding missing persons
for this case to have the initial outcome was nothing we even as seasoned veterans
experienced [Music] thanks so much for joining us here in the garage do not hesitate if you have a
tip no matter how small you think it is please call 844 459 5786 and please join us back here in the
garage tomorrow until then be good be kind and don't Lar [Music] you can live out your Master Chef
dreams when you find a professional on Angie to tackle your dream kitchen remodel connect with skilled
professionals to get all your home projects done well inside to outside repairs to
Renovations get started on the Angie app or visit angie.com today you can do this
when you Angie that

Delphi Murders /// 4 Years Later /// Part 1 /// 468

Part 1 of 2

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

February 13 marked four years since two middle school students Liberty German and Abigail Williams went for a hike on the Monon High Bridge Trail and did not return alive. It was announced that there would be no press conference on the fourth anniversary. Many are looking for an update and some more information on this case. Well here it is. Join Nic & the Captain in the Garage as they take a look at the now four year old investigation. This week TCG explores some new information coming out of Carroll County, Indiana. This is a case that the Garage has followed from the start and will be there when it is finally over.

Beer of the Week - High Pines by Highland Brewing Company Garage Grade - 4 out of 5 Bottle Caps

Our show - True Crime Garage “Off the Record” is available only on Stitcher Premium. For a FREE month of listening go to http://stitcherpremium.com/truecrimegarage and use promo code GARAGE

Beer Fund: https://truecrimegarage.com/home

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com (https://pcm.adswizz.com) for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Brief Summary

The Delphi double homicide case remains unsolved four years later, with ongoing investigations and community support for the victims' families.

Key points

Quality Sleep with Ashley. Ashley offers top mattress brands at winning prices, helping children in need with every purchase.
Four Years Later: No Arrest. The investigation into the murders of Abigail Williams and Liberty German continues with no arrests after four years.
Sheriff's Insights on the Case. Sheriff Tobe Lesen discusses the ongoing investigation and the importance of community tips.
Investigation Missteps. Frustration mounts over the investigation's handling of sketches and eyewitness accounts.
Surveillance Footage Questions. Questions arise about the lack of additional footage of the suspect.
Importance of the FBI Profile. Discussion on the potential impact of releasing the FBI's suspect profile.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

The killer still on the run!

Discussion about the ongoing investigation

5:26WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

More from True Crime Garage TV

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.