True East Murders /// Part 1 /// 165 | Forensic Files

itself [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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garage.com click on that donate button bwe Double R you win beer run so kind of interesting how we got this week's case
suggestion we went to go see the black belt of comedians Michael lanochi and he has known worldwide as the greatest
kicking stand-up comedian of all time and while we were there we got the chance to speak with him and Captain
this was not a suggested case he threatened us he threatened us with his kicking belt and the kicking and the
comedy the kicking Styles he also has a podcast called guys night out so check that out you can see him on tour he's
opening up for The Elder himself the Cuda the um want to fire him crystalia and Mike was not the only one
to suggest this case this is a pretty popular case we've gotten a lot of suggestions for it because it's been
covered on the confession tapes on Netflix yeah this is a case that's confusing and there's a lot of things
that aren't clear a lot of things to sift through it's going to leave you maybe a little angry but hopefully we
can get to the bottom of this and that's why you want to gather around because we're going to break it down for you so
we can break it down grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music]
thank you foreign [Music] foreign [Music] 1994 just after 2 A.M Bellevue Washington Police Department
are called to a crime scene teenagers Sebastian Burns and Atif for Faye returned to atif's family's home
which is located in a quiet upper middle class area of Bellevue when they arrive they stumbled onto a
horrific scene atif's parents and sister had been brutally attacked Sebastian Burns called 9-1-1 asking for
an ambulance [Music] [Applause] [Applause] as president I understand just calm down well I I don't
think it's safe here I want that we'll be outside okay go ahead go ahead now please fast okay they're on the way okay
we'll be outside okay go ahead foreign [Music] as the young men waited for help to
arrive atif's older sister basma was clinging to life moaning in her bedroom detective Bob Thompson was one of the
officers that responded to the scene of the attacks according to him it appeared atif's
mother was the first to be killed atif's father was the next to be murdered active Thompson said it was Overkill and
it looked like someone had hit the man 40 or 50 times patif's sister died at the hospital just
a few hours after the attack unable to tell the detectives who had attacked her this is the true East murders
[Music] the clip that was played there the 9-1-1 call that is 18 year old Sebastian Burns
calling to report that when he had returned with his friend Atif back to their home back to the thief's home that
they found atif's mother and father very badly beaten to the point that they believed them to be dead they found
atif's sister very badly beaten um near death and they're calling in they're asking
for police they're asking for ambulance they're asking for help they're afraid that whoever did this whoever
perpetrated this attack may still be in the home and they decide to go and wait outside until the police arrive
now I've read some reports here that state that the police did have a little trouble finding the location of the
crime scene finding the home that they were calling about uh and as we stated Sebastian and Atif would have been
outside waiting for the police and they had to flag down the police to show them
where in fact the house was a little background here captain on the rafay family the rafae family was the
the family that was attacked so the rafe family of four had just moved to Bellevue Washington from Vancouver
Canada the father Tariq rafay was a very talented structural engineer who had worked on buildings all over the world
the mother Sultana she had a doctorate in nutrition and but she devoted her life to raising her
children this is basma and Atif I mean similar to me I mean having my doctorate but I I continue to work on
the podcast I have many doctorates from many of the highest um the highest of points like Mount
Everest from some of the best universities on both the east and west coast but enough
about me right um Sebastian and Atif they had been best friends since high school both of them
were very I can you know I've I've seen interviews with these guys read stuff with these guys I can honestly say they
are very smart young men um probably more intelligent than me even though I hold all those doctorates
from many very distinguished universities now Sebastian was raised in a loving family with English roots and
grew up playing classical cello he became a member of the Royal Canadian Air Cadets and was given an award by
Prince Edward like we said both of these guys are intellectuals but the other problem with these two guys is they
actually believe that they are smarter than probably what they are and smarter than everybody they assume a lot of
times that they are smart they're the smartest guy in the room yeah that just kind of
that kind of just bleeds through them doesn't it when you when you when you see them speaking and everybody knows
that kind of guy in high school where where you know he's smart all your friends know he's smart but it's the
fact that he puts himself on a pedestal that you're just like yeah you know seriously there's an arrogance
about both of these young men it stinks Atif attended uh Cornell University so he he is in his summer year of college
right Cornell is an Ivy League school but it was the only Ivy League school that accepted him so it wasn't like he
had a bunch of options so let's as far as Ivy League schools go let's clean up this background information here a
little bit before we move into the crime and the crime scene um so the rafae family of four had just
moved to Bellevue Washington from Vancouver Canada during this time three people were living in the refae home
Atif is away at college and his friend Sebastian still lives up in Canada now during this night on this night when
they find atif's parents murdered and his sister attacked Atif had been staying he had been
visiting his family from college for a few nights and his best friend from high school Sebastian came down to visit him
while he was staying in Bellevue Washington Washington obviously much closer to Vancouver than Cornell
University so the two friends Atif and Sebastian had been out for a night out on the town
when they returned to atif's home and they discovered that this attack had occurred so let's take a look at what
went down and the crime scene is there any evidence to tell us who the perpetrator or perpetrators are what are
the investigator suspicions and what are they finding at the crime scene and we can do that as we go through this uh
sort of timeline here starting with the 2 A.M marker on July 13 1994. so as we said Sebastian and Atif discovered the
bodies of atif's parents and they call 9-1-1 this is roughly at 2 A.M and we know this because the 9-1-1 call comes
in at 201 am now a Chief's sister bossma she then shortly later dies in the hospital from
injuries inflicted from that attack from the time that the boys found the bodies
until 8 30 a.m that morning Sebastian and Atif are up all night with police mostly at the Bellevue Police Department
during this time they are each interviewed separately twice when asked where they had been that
evening the boys provided a full account stating that at 8 30 PM they drove to a
place called The Keg restaurant for a bite to eat they had a salad and they each had a glass of wine
then they went to a 9 50 p.m showing of the movie The Lion King after the movie they stopped for uh they
stopped off at a club and they left the waitress a tip a six dollar tip on a nine dollar tab
I've actually I've seen this these numbers reported slightly different on this uh what their tab was and what
their tip was the General thought is that they left uh what would be considered to be a high a noticeably
High tip for whatever they purchased at that club Sebastian and Atif provided police with their clothing that they
wore that evening they were both examined by um an alternative light source for evidence of blood spatter and examined
for gunshot residue when both tests come up negative correct the first thing that troubled police was
how could Sebastian and Atif provide so much detail about where they had been that evening but not recall key moments
at the murder scene well I mean I think one of the explanations would be you know you got
fight or flight and you know anytime and they flew yes yes they flew and I think
then it's the idea of what can you remember because you're in shock I mean it's like the 9-1-1 call and we can
break that down later but uh some people see somebody that's trying to lie or put
on a show and some people see um somebody that is in complete shock and has no clue what to do well here's
my thoughts on their I personally I think this is a weird thing for the police to say that this drew some
suspicion for them how could they provide so much detail about what they had been doing that evening but not
recall key moments at the murder scene and and I need to be a little more clear but about what they mean by that but
let's get into that here because first of all we we see that they're at a restaurant at 8 30 p.m they're not
according to their story they do not return home till 2 A.M okay so that's five and a half hours yeah you can
provide a lot of detail of something you were doing for five and a half hours right when they returned to the crime
scene when they found atif's parents it would have been a matter of minutes by the time they would have called 9-1-1
and went to that fight or flight mode and flew out of the home and and remained out by the curb to wait for
police to arrive so you're talking about a comparison of five and a half hours to
a matter of minutes of course you're going to get more detail from something that you spent that amount of time on
yeah so the story is that they got home roughly about two o'clock and then when they entered the home they're probably
only in the home for about three minutes until the 9-1-1 call was placed right so
I personally for me I don't see anything weird about not knowing that this is where it does get a little weird though
when when they are taking when they're going through the crime scene and they're going through the home
they're asking a thief and Sebastian if if they had touched any of the victims and Atif can't remember like most the
time he's saying I might have touched my mom I don't think I did no I don't think I did and that's
basically how he answers when he's he's questioned about his mother and his father I may have but I don't think I
did no I probably did not I understand that we have a situation where he's probably very much in shock
um I have a hard time believing that he wouldn't be aware if he touched his if he touched any of the victims
and why would this be a key thing for the police well and this is why I think he could be
vague about it if he is trying to hide something you would rather be vague about whether you touched one of the
victims than to give a definitive answer because they're going to be able to do tests on you like we said testing for
blood spatter testing for gunshot residue they're going to do tests on you that will determine whether you are
being honest about having touched the victims or not sometimes the honest answer is I don't know now detectives
also point out that the killer or killers may have known the victims and obviously
we come across this with the every case that we cover that's always a possibility and usually it's a
likelihood they could find no signs of forced entry and that is going to be something that
could be key here because remember on the 9-1-1 call the first thing that Sebastian says is there
appears to have been some sort of break-in there the police are unable to find any
signs of forced entry so what does that mean well could could the killer or Killers have gained access to the home
without breaking in possible possible people leave their doors unlocked people figure out ways to
get into homes could The Killers or killer have known the victims and were let into the home
that's a possibility as well gained access to the home through one of the victims themselves
right or they got lucky and there was this the door was unlocked or did the killer killers were they already inside
the home when the attack went down they didn't need to gain entry into the home so those are your options there if you
cannot find a sign of of obvious break-in this the thought that the perpetrators may have known the victims
also comes up in this fact of the crime scene so detective Thompson would say that the mother atif's mother was
attacked first she was downstairs and then we have the father who was upstairs presumably sleeping
that he was attacked second in his bed and how were these individuals attacked um it it had appeared that it would have
been with with the thief's mother anyway that it would have been a like a blitz attack that she probably was surprised
and struck with a heavy object right so a hammer or a baseball bat or something like that yeah board anything like that
um that same weapon was used again on atif's Father upstairs in the bedroom as he lies sleeping that would be a sneak
attack pretty much that he was unaware that he was being attacked probably did not hear his wife having been attacked
just before him so the father though was was brutalized I mean he was hit Thompson said 40 or 50
times let's go back to the mom real quick okay because she was hit she was dead her face was covered somebody
covered her face probably afterwards and she was Facing East which uh this is a Muslim family so that would be the
direction in which they pray so then let's go to the father so she was kind of killed but almost shown some
kind of respect after the murder I guess uh if that makes any sense and then the father is just bludgeon not
only bludgeoned he was he was destroyed the killer didn't want to just to to kill atif's father
that person wanted to destroy him like I said detective Thompson saying it looked
like he had been hit 40 or 50 times and whatever object was used to kill the man
had sprayed matter yeah there's blood everywhere yeah not just blood we got we got blood we got teeth we got pieces of
bone skin flesh there's there's matter all over sprayed all over that room from wherever he was hit and then pulled back
up again struck again and every time you do that it's bringing a little bit with
it when you pull it back up and it's spraying it on the walls and the ceiling of this bedroom then we have the sister
the older atif's older sister basma who is attacked last and we haven't brought it up yet but his sister is uh she's
autistic yeah and I don't know the I don't know the severity of her autism and I bring that up because of a
statement that the police made I want to be very clear this is the police statement that's different there's
different spectrums yeah so the police's statement would be that this points again that the killer knew
the family that knew the family well to the point that they would have attacked the parents first and killed the parents
first attacking the sister last knowing that she would be unable to call 9-1-1 right that's what the police had stated
now to the 9-1-1 call Captain remember we had stated Sebastian said there was some type of break-in and I
want to talk about what the detectives say that they are seeing at the home not only no sign of forced entry but also
just looking at the room and rooms of the home they're stating that it appears to the detectives
that boxes were okay so the home they had recently moved there right so you have a lot of boxes that have not been
unpacked and put away these items have not been put away yet right so whoever broke into this home quote unquote broke
into this home they didn't appear to have sifted through items that were still in
the boxes um the detective said that it looked like they just tipped over boxes yeah
that they didn't really go through anything the drawers were open but nobody it just looked like so people
open up the drawer maybe looked inside didn't didn't rummage around didn't pull anything out
yes so go ahead right Atif is the one that's going to say well my walkman's missing I think
the VCR is missing yes but this is also individual yes he is the son of the the parents that were murdered but he hasn't
lived in this property for a long time you know he's been away at school so like you said first of all the house
isn't put together you know fully yet yeah from the move and then you have an individual that's
only been there for a couple days so now you're trying to say hey what's missing
well that's a lot easier to do when the house is put together but when the house isn't put together it
all looks like stuff's missing yeah here's the thing though I I kind of I'm gonna go with the and if if for
anybody out there that is unfamiliar with this case you can see what road we're going down here it's starting to
look like the police have suspicions regarding Atif and Sebastian right okay and that's why we're going
through these crime scene items one at a time now I have to kind of go with the the places if they're being honest if
they're being unbiased in their opinion I have to go with their belief when they
say you know it looks like people kind of staged this break and I because they would have seen robberies and and
burglaries a hundred times you know you you you're a detective you've been on the force for quite some time by the
time you're a detective and you've seen break-ins you've seen uh this kind of thing go down and when it doesn't look
right when it doesn't pass the smell test it it looks like a setup to these guys
it looks like a staged burglary well like I said there's a couple problems first problem is they just moved into
the property and the stuff is not put away so yeah you might have seen a bunch of you know break-ins and burglaries
before but how many times have you seen one where somebody's just moving in my other issue with the police going down
this road is the idea that you don't know what this person that might have you know they might have broken to kill
you but there was a reason why they was rummaging through your stuff and that reason could be a stack of papers or
something that you would have no there'd be no clear evidence that this item is now missing
you bring up a very good point there Captain so we have a chief stating that his Walkman was was taken a VCR was
taken from the home which seems crazy to have three people murdered just to take a vcr and a
Walkman um but you bring up a very good point we have three of the four family members are
dead these people had just moved there you're right there are items they could have
had that if if a teeth can't say okay this item's missing that item's missing this
stack of papers is missing we had um some jewelry that was missing if he doesn't report something as not being
still at the home the detectives are going to have no clue that other additional items are actually missing
from the home right like you said I mean you know his father was an engineer and
he was working on some uh pretty interesting stuff so we'll get back to that after the break but you know again
with the mother he's not going to know if a piece of jewelry is missing or something like that I tell you what I I
lived with my father in my teenage years I lived with my mother before that and I
couldn't have told you you know if somebody broke in our home and stole half my mom's jewelry I wouldn't be able
to tell you what any of it was you know my father had guns in the home when we grew up and right machine guns all kinds
of cannons cannons um hand cannons I and you know what he um fancies himself a bit of a collector I I wouldn't be able
to tell you if the guy's got two guns or if he has 10. you know what I mean I just don't
know it's not my personal belonging so um yeah I would have no clue you bring up a very good point there well we'll
get right back to my amazing points and the point on your head right after this quick beer break
[Music] all right we're back cheers mates cheers to you Captain so we have the 9-1-1 call
to talk about um anything that you find anything that jumps off the page to you immediately
regarding the 9-1-1 call no uh and I wish we had a clearer version I hate when we have a kind of crappy audio but
I think you can decipher it enough uh again I think this is a weird situation you know either you think
Sebastian is lying or you just think he is uh Disturbed or he's out of his mind so Sebastian's the one making the call
Atif presumably is in the home with him when this call is going down and we hear
immediately Sebastian sounds to be confused or stuttering um in a state of panic or shock
that's what I hear that's my you know that's my general thought on his behavior now I have seen several
interviews with with Sebastian I've also seen a videotape footage of him speaking
several times he does on occasion have a little bit of a stutter a little bit of
a stammer um so that's not doesn't it doesn't seem to be my thing is Captain I was trying to
figure out was this a put on was he putting this on this this act so I have to give him the benefit of the
doubt there and I don't feel like it's a total put on now one thing that I did find weird is several times he starts to
say something and then kind of stops and re kind of re-gears himself you know where
he'll start to say [Applause] um the two which it sounded like he was about to say the two adults or the two
parents um and then he says uh my my friend's parents both of them he's he struggles
to find the right words and then he says we think they're dead he just we think they're dead very fast like that right
which I don't know maybe I'm maybe I'm putting this under the microscope too much here
because I don't know it's hard to say how anybody would react in this situation but I do feel like where where
the stutter and where the stammer might not be a put on I question is he choosing his words and why would you
take the time to choose your words especially when you end the call saying right very fast fast right but he might
not be actually choosing his words it might just be he's in the moment of speaking but because he's in such shock
he he is trying to edit himself and his brain because his brain is not functioning correctly and uh you know
the interview with him is he said I was out of my mind when I was making that call so
possibly you know you might not even remember the call the the fact of the matter is you got two boys that walk
into a situation this is their accounts they see the dead mother they go up now now you have to check on
the father he is brutally murdered unrecognizable he would be unrecognizable maybe even as a
you might not even recognize him as a person at that point right um and then you and yeah and that room's
completely covered in blood and then you gotta check on your sister but before you get to the point where
you're checking on your sister you can hear her and you know so one would assume that
you would run to her Aid to help her but uh also you might again it's the fight or flight mentality and if your
body tells you to to fly out of there there's nothing you can do yeah so let's be clear about that his
Atif sister was still alive during the the call of the 9-1-1 she didn't die until they got her back to the hospital
right um but how much the boys the boys and I keep calling them boys they're 18 year
old young men at this point right um but they're very sheltered this is uh this is upper middle class and online
they're offered would often report uh referred to as the boys as well so I think that's why that seeped into my
psyche here but so so Sebastian and Atif well hold on I was saying that their upper middle class I think that's
important here yeah because these are 18 year old kids that were sheltered very sheltered and uh I'd argued to say that
they're just upper class kids yeah yeah I found I found that we're weird when they described them as upper
middle class and then I saw the neighborhood and the homes in the neighborhood and I thought well if
that's upper I always thought I was middle class and when they said their upper middle class I thought wow I'm
poor as dirt we have a we have a podcast in the garage yeah yeah you know the homes were very nice and that's a very
nice neighborhood so to me that looks like an upper class let's all right let's get it right and thief's dad was
an engineer so I mean he has his Doctorate I mean he's doing well for himself but they did
not help his sister they did not help his dying sister right but it wasn't again that's
you know so and sometimes you can say that and makes it seem so bad I didn't help the dying sister
she was in a state that neither one of them could have done anything without they they had no medical training
so it wasn't like they could really do anything to help her do you think they even opened the door to her room
me I I think they did that's one thing I question because I I couldn't find I could find parts of
their interview where they where Atif was being asked if he had touched the body of his mother or his father I
couldn't find any parts of the actual interview where he was being asked questions directly about his sister yeah
well I think he said he knew there was nothing he could do to help her right that's that that's the only part I
couldn't find you know well his statement was I don't even know how to put it you know I don't even know how to
put a Band-Aid on or something like that which I think was kind of a dumb statement but this was also in a
situation where it's like if I came into the garage and somebody bludgeoned you and you're hanging on to dear life I
can't do nothing so I have two options uh sit there in the room I could call and sit in the room with you
and you know lose my appetite or I call the police and I step in the other room and you know pray to God that the
ambulance gets there quick enough to save you because I don't have the means in order to save you yeah I I just
wanted to hear from his from his mouth that they had in fact opened the door and in some form checked on her now
here's the other thing yeah I I don't know if I definitively ever saw him or heard him say that I also wanted to hear
him say definitively that he touched the body of his sister because you here's what I'm what I'm getting at for him to
to lay out the assessment that I could there was nothing I could do there's nothing we could do to help her or to
save her I want there to be some kind of uh investigation by him to arrive to that
conclusion right but there was also the statement by uh Sebastian that we think that somebody is in the house or
possibly is in the house So based on their story these two guys go in they find the mom they find the dad then
there's the sister they hear the sister or maybe they see the Sister We're Not really clear on that
but for whatever reason when they go outside to make the 9-1-1 call they don't flee the scene
right they say we're here we're gonna flag you down and we're staying outside because we think that maybe this killer
is still there and then police want to come out and say well that's a little odd don't you think why would you just
hang out outside if you think the Killer's in the house well look again there might be 18 year
old uh young men but they're naive and they they could be as intellectual as they want these guys are not street
smart at all these guys are very sheltered so uh if it's me and I walk into the house
and there's this attack and I call the police and I say hey you get here the police probably should tell you hey you
might want to go outside the person might still be in the house and there might be some evidence some noise that
they heard that they were they went oh [ __ ] oh [ __ ] do you hear something in
the basement somebody might be in the house I'm finding a weapon and I'm going outside
and I'm giving myself some space and I'm going to keep my eyes on that house and
if somebody comes out of that house you know it's go time You Gotta Fight for Your Life at that point you have three
dead people inside well and you you've made the right call essentially because remember you know when I worked security
for years one thing that they taught us was if you are trying to protect someone
okay let's say there's a break-in kung fu let's say there's a break into the garage right now okay and let's pretend
that this garage has many different rooms and we keep pretending the garage this episode in a couple different
levels as well wouldn't it be great if the garage actually did have several levels anyway
one day my friend um four levels so if somebody came into the garage and they wanted to harm or
kill you okay right doubt it but let me tell you what what my training what what we were
taught during this training was that unless you have unless you have some kind of setup where you have like a
Panic Room which most homes would not have a Panic Room not not a real legit Panic Room not telling you if I have one
or not but what I'm saying is that if my job is to protect you from anything I'm
I'm your security you have to listen to this all right I hope my security works out a little bit
more no but what the training taught us or has big weapons was that if my job is
to protect you against anything and somebody breaks into this home or to a place where you are staying and I am
guarding you my number one object my number one [Applause] um objective is to get you outside
unless there's a legit Panic Room the numbers say that as soon as I get you outside out of that building rather than
trying to hide you in a closet somewhere or rather than try to hide you in a room
that's far away from the break-in point right that your your numbers of living and surviving that break-in and that
attack significantly increase if I get you outside so you in fact did the right thing and they in fact be it that they'd
be naive 18 year olds in fact did the right thing the the thing that I keep going back to though is what how much
information did they collect regarding the sister before they decided that the the one there's nothing we can do
for her before we flee the home and two we can't flee the home with because there's a chance that if if
she's in a certain State you might be able to bring her with you out of the house right and and that didn't happen
as well and and I think where the police are questioning their moves are they're
saying well yes you went outside but you were you're like you're like 20 feet 20 25 feet you know
uh from the home right but what do you want them to do run you run a couple blocks away what what do you want them
to do well actually thank God they didn't because they wouldn't have been there to flag down the police right
um so no I'm not saying that that's I'm not questioning what they did I'm bringing up the police in the in the
investigators thoughts and suspicions on their moves throughout that evening right and that's just their opinions of
what they think this means or that means oh what was his demeanor on the 9-1-1 call what was their demeanor when we got
there this is all speculation do we have any actual evidence yeah well uh bust out the luminol this whole place is a
crime scene so they're going to use the luminol to spray down uh the crime scene
they're looking for evidence of blood that's been washed away don't ever say that at a party hey
the luminar it's time to party um but what they find here and this is very troubling they when they conduct
this test it showed an enormous amount of Blood on the shower walls so the killer had used the shower before
leaving the killer popped in the shower washed himself herself off and then left
the scene and now the police are wondering this okay this is a very this is not a
normal thing to go down at a at a murder scene at a triple homicide scene right um so this again is going to lead them
back to the thought that the the attacker knew the family and knew the family intimately knew them to the point
where they could they would have access to the home and they would also not be in such a hurry to leave the home that
they would clean themselves up before leaving the home right and like you said this is not very typical but we have
tons of blood in the room that the father was killed in tons of blood we have tons of splatter everywhere yeah so
if the killer had left the home in the clothes that they arrived in that they wore during the attack and didn't bother
to wash themselves off you would see a person covered in blood from head to toe leaving the crime scene right and
leaving evidence as they went so possibly this is this is something that could be considered like a hit type
move Killer goes in kills its victims cleans itself cleans themselves up um and we have hairs found in the shower as
well and those hairs that they're going to find they're going to find over 20 some hairs in that shower and that's
going to be of Sebastian Burns but he was staying at the house for three days prior right so there's your reason
why if there is going to be any hairs in that shower that's reasons why well let's let's talk about why the I
mean we are it's obvious why the killer would take a shower but let's talk about like what you said
if this was a hit or if somebody had came in to kill the family for some reason it it has happened in other crimes
there's other crimes that I've read about where the killer has in fact done something that was totally unnecessary
at a crime scene where they've they've killed people and then they they decided to sit in the kitchen and drink a few
beers before they left or they had a bowl of cereal or they took a they took a shower to clean themselves up or
I'm just joking but but you would have think about this if somebody was planning if someone had
planned this murder and somebody had watched the family because the first thing you got a question is your
immediate thought would be as soon as you kill this family that you would want to flee the scene as fast as possible to
evade capture right that's your immediate first thought but if I had been watching this family
and I had been planning to kill this family now keep in mind maybe I did my surveillance on the home and on the
family the week before in my in my surveillance ended I watched them for a a course of three or four
days the week before well according to my surveillance my belief would be my knowledge
would tell me that only three people live in that home right and so having just killed all three of them I may not
be in a huge hurry to leave the home I I might take a bunch of noise right I might take the time to clean myself up
if I brought a duffel bag with a with a change of clothes in that duffel bag annihilated this family hopped in the
shower threw my bloody clothes in the duffel bag put on the fresh clothes walked out of there all you would see is
one very handsome very clean man walking out with the duffel bag right that's um
it's opinion but so what I'm getting at is it's not impossible it doesn't have to be a thief
or Sebastian or the two of them having lived there or staying there that took the shower right so the the cops are
again and let's reiterate the fact that the cops then questioned them for hours they do test there's no trace of blood I
mean one would argue that oh well they took a shower so that's why there's no blood because they washed it all off
there's a lot of blood a lot of blood I would I would actually have to argue that some might have to take quite a
long shower to make sure they didn't have any any blood on them and so again these guys are not Mastermind
killers that we know of so would they would they even know uh if they had any residue left on them who
knows well I think but I think therein lies the problem is that let's say Atif and Sebastian are totally innocent and
all they did was stumble onto a crime scene the problem here is you find nothing on these guys you would actually
if they were just victims that had stumbled onto a crime scene you would I would actually believe that I would find
something on them and and to me that is why it looks very suspicious it's not so much that why would you find
something on them because some of those rooms were covered in in blood the the father's bedroom was
covered in in matter right and I'm sure whatever shoes they're wearing had evidence on them but because they were
at the crime scene cops never reported that but if you just walk into rooms and you
don't touch anything then what are they going to find on you I just other than your shoes I do have a
hard time believing that they wouldn't have touched anything and I don't necessarily mean a victim
um again but this is these are upper class kids they're sheltered I'm talking about who cares about sheltered or not
sheltered I'm talking about if I walk into a room and I see a dead body whether I choose to run up and hug it
what no what I'm saying is whether whether I choose to to investigate further and touch the body or not I
probably wouldn't what I'm saying is if I walked into a room and I found someone
dead whether it be a family member or not there's a good chance I might have to grab a wall to brace myself from
falling over I might have to go down to one knee because I'm I'm in total shock right but who says that it that they
didn't the blood evidence says that they didn't no you just they didn't touch the
evidence you know I mean so and then the other thing well they wouldn't have they
didn't do it in the father's bedroom right but that could be as simple as them walking in and I mean you don't
have to walk into that room to see that guy's dead no I I know that I know that but what I'm saying is I I find it very
strange that given the description of the crime scene and how much blood there was that these guys had nothing on them
but they're in the house for how long or so probably three probably three to four
minutes so right so within three three to four minutes you're making a call to 9-1-1 and they're waiting outside on the
curb right but I don't have to convince you I'm just telling you my suspicions this this seems very suspicious to me no
no I I get the Leaning that way but look I like I'm saying I think there's that there's an OB
there's a explanation for that because one the first person you're seeing is not so brutal and then the next I think
you know if they're telling this truth that once they got to the father's room that that was it that was the Tipping
Point this is awful and we need to get out of here but it but to add to your point with
them being uh you say sheltered I actually think with them being sheltered that they would be even more shocked and
even more unable to control themselves at the at the crime scene yeah but I think that's what led them to the flight
mentality you know what I mean they I think it was quickly let's get the hell out of here
we don't know what's going on here and if somebody is um the Killer is still here we need to get out of here
uh way more so than and then maybe somebody else the initial questioning of Sebastian and Atif ends at 8 30 a.m that
day when an officer takes the two men to buy clothes they go remember they provided the clothes to the detectives
so they need something to wear they take them to buy some clothes and they take them to eat breakfast afterwards the
officer takes Sebastian and Atif to the Bellevue motel and the two having been up all night they're now at the hotel
they presumably sleep until about 2 p.m that afternoon right at 2 pm they are picked up again by detectives and taken
back to the Bellevue Police Department for further questioning this also during this time they also conduct
fingerprinting and photographing of the two young men they are let go at about 6
PM they are released from this uh at 6 PM from there the two go to a video store and Sebastian and Atif rent a VCR
in several movies at 9 00 PM Blockbuster at nine PM Sebastian calls his father to tell the
tell him what has happened right so a couple things here um so they're staying in a hotel that's
being furnished for them by um the police right so and that that makes sense you you
have these kids if they're not involved they're definitely victims and this kid's whole life has changed because his
whole family's been murdered but there also our number one suspect slash lead that we have so we need to keep them
close so you sleep all day then you get questioned and then you probably don't want to go out or do anything no so a
lot of people have really kind of speculated that well these guys are definitely guilty they went to
Blockbuster and rented some movies uh I don't know look you're you're two 18 year old boys
this tragic event just happened you were up all night being questioned you were then questioned again
um maybe you're sitting in the hotel room hey the hotel room might not have cable or maybe it has cable and there's
just nothing on and you go hey let's just go rent some movies Public Access channel was all it had I'm joking I
don't know I don't know that but but it's just funny to me that you know people will sit there and speculate oh
you know they rented some movies their their murderers like I don't know I think that stuff is a
stretch nobody you would not know what you would do in those circumstances if it you know until it happens well I
agree with that 100 I do have to call into question myself because when I saw this report that they
had done this I founded a I didn't find it particularly like overboard weird or strange I did question it a little bit
but then I remembered uh way back when when we covered Casey Anthony and she had gone to the video store and I'm
probably I I don't know that I can't recall my reaction but my guess what my gut tells me I probably held her feet to
the Flames for going to the video store so I should do so I guess in this case as well
um yeah but she's a crazy [ __ ] I mean so uh one thing I did find strange is the 9 pm phone call
from Sebastian to his father this seems like a very traumatic event to somebody to anybody obviously I I
feel like I I really wonder the delay for that phone call um and obviously Sebastian's not here
with us to to explain why there was what I would call a delay maybe that maybe he
felt that was his only and first opportunity to actually make that phone call and it was something he had wanted
to do all day long however I see that there's some windows of time where that phone call could have been made and did
not happen yeah yeah and look I think uh again there's all these little actions that people put on to people to go hey
they're guilty they rented movies they they watch The Lion King first of all what 18 year old boys are going to go
get salad and some wine and watch The Lion King together that's how I spent every Friday night
we're gonna have to get another coat that's how I spent last Friday night no um here's the thing Captain though the
the but but I I got a harp on this phone call for a little bit because had I been
with you or with any of my other friends and discovered right their friends let me finish
the reason why you know like I was saying everybody harps on this or that for all we know
they go right from the murder scene the crime scene to questioning and the cops might have told him since
they're 18 they're on that cusp they might have said look um they might ask do you need to call your
dad or you need to call your parents or maybe they didn't or maybe they called them for them I mean there could
be some little tiny piece of information that we don't know that's why I'm not going to harp on a harp on it too much I
don't know if it leads either way he either it was the first opportunity he felt
that he could call or he knew that he had to wait a a time period before he was able to call his father again though
there there are clear windows of time that he would have been able to call them but
we have to factor in some other things we don't know what his parents schedules were maybe during those windows of the
time he he believed he would be unable to get a hold of either his father or mother the other thing too is
I guess I'm questioning why he delayed calling his parents and the reason being is
um what I should probably question is his relationship with his parents you know I'm kind of looking at it in my
shoes I'm looking at it like look I'm in my 30s if something that traumatic happened to me probably the first thing
I would probably want to do is call somebody that that makes me feel some kind of
sense of Safety and Security and that would be one of my parents the thing though is I have a good relationship
with my parents I'm I shouldn't assume that he has a good relationship with his yeah and but also we have Sebastian
hanging out with the teeth and Atif is his best friend and how much consoling is he doing for our teeth that just lost
his father his mother and his older sister that's true he could be tending to his his good friend now on the day
after the bodies were found in the early afternoon Sebastian and Atif go to Barnes and Noble bookstore at about 3
P.M the detectives locate the two men at the bookstore and they request another meeting with each of them a chief
participates in a three-hour taped interview and Sebastian does an hour and a half taped interview with the
investigators and at no point these guys are asking for a lawyer well not only that they're cooperating
they've handed over their clothes anytime these investigators and detectives are asking for interviews
they're doing that and they're allowing the interviews to be taped they're probably writing things uh writing
statements as well during this time they've submitted to fingerprints to other forms of tests they're they're
cooperating in every form and fashion that you would ask of a person expect of a person and they're doing that now on
July 15th in the morning the Canadian consulate calls to obtain permission from the Bellevue Police Department to
return Sebastian and Atif to Sebastian's parents who live in Vancouver right okay
so to make this a little more clear so when Sebastian ends up talking with his father
his father starts going okay they're questioning these 18 year old boys they need to come home this is not right
so what they do like we said they're in a hotel room that is being they're being
put up by the police department so they have their their contact even though that they had contact with the
detectives and stuff themselves and had their numbers they didn't call it's kind of like when
you call into work sick you know you'd be like 16 and you're sick and you but you don't want
to call in so you just try to get your parents to call in for you I mean it's kind of the same thing I think they
didn't want to talk to the detectives I think they were also nervous they're being told by Sebastian's father
hey come home you need to come home if they're questioning you multiple times you need to come home
and so they have their counselor call they say hey it's fine they're allowed to go they're they're not doing anything
wrong so they leave and then what does the police department do they run to the press and then tell the
press that these two individuals they're fleeing yeah and the funny thing is when
you go back and you find newspaper reports uh from July of 94. it's obvious that that's the what the
media believed as well that's what's reported that the two fled to Canada and that's why I wanted to point out that a
consulate employee called Bellevue police asking for permission stating that you know basically they're saying
is it okay if these two young men leave is it okay that they return to Canada and you got to keep in mind here
Sebastian that's his family that's where he lives that's where he's from he was just visiting and then furthermore Atif
his family's been killed Sebastian's family might be the closest thing he has to family at this point right but I'd
also say at this point in his life you know Canada does more his home you know he's a he's a citizen of Canada yeah he
I don't think he's an American citizen he had lived in Canada for the majority of his life they had lived in multiple
countries but but he lived in Canada for the majority of his life one the thing that's going to happen once he gets to
Canada is he misses his family's funeral and that becomes a big deal yeah so we have at approximately 10 a.m on July 15
1994 the lead detective on the case in Bellevue learns that the rafay funeral will take place that day and then that
evening Sebastian and Atif they are now at the Burns residence in Canada and they're watching the evening news and
that is when Atif discovers from watching the news that his family's funeral was planned and took place that
day without him being there well I guess in the traditional Muslim uh Traditions I guess you have to be
buried within a certain time period okay so it's like I want to say three to four
days so the argument here is that he would have known uh based on tradition but again here's what's weird is we
don't know we don't know this Dynamic we know that his family's Muslim but we don't know how
Orthodox or unorthodox they are but his his uh surrounding family is the one that that took care of the the
funeral arrangements so he might not have known right um it's a little odd though I mean I think
I could totally see Sebastian's Dad saying you guys need to come home um you know does the teeth come with you or
not well I say I say yes bring them with us but what I thought was interesting was
when uh Sebastian's dad was talking about this and said we're watching The Evening News
and we see that uh not only there was a funeral but they're going hey a thief missed a funeral what's up with that
right that that the mom said off camera if you watch this uh this was on the confession
tapes uh Netflix confession tapes it's episode one and two she's off camera and she says hey it wasn't that he was just
upset he literally like yelled at the TV and like almost like Dove towards the TV
and anger well and and in all fairness too I don't know Muslim tradition well enough to say that
you know how many days is the rule right but I just want to point out to the listeners that are that are wandering so
we have the bodies are discovered at 2 A.M on July 13th the date we're talking about is the funeral would have been on
July 15th so two days later now was it tradition that it's three days four days I don't know but what I'm getting at no
no no what I'm saying is the the the protocol is that they have to be buried within that time period within a certain
amount of time right right right what I'm what I wanted to point out here was that we're stating that there's a good
chance that Thief would have known what the tradition would be and should have had an idea of what was going to happen
right if that's even if that is the case if he does have that knowledge what I'm
put pointing out here is they left the morning of the 15th and took a bus back to Vancouver I don't know how many hours
it took them to get there what I'm getting at is this was only two days later so if Atif thought that they had
three or four days whatever it is maybe he thought that somebody would contact him and he could just hop on a bus and
go right back down and attend the services I don't know what the the time frame is on that but obviously he took
this bus and it only took him a few hours to or took hours to get there right now a lot of this stuff they're
going to say why did this happen or why did this happen and Atif and Sebastian always kind of come back to this same
explanation We Were Young we're just kids yeah you know there's there's certain times in in your life that you
have to kind of Step Up and and be more adult like I think whether it was a thief's fault or his family's fault that
he wasn't at the funeral I think there's evidence that shows that he was upset about it and so I would I assume that
that's not his doing if why would you be upset about something that you decided not to be at
um so either here nor there there's no uh this is just all speculation this this
is not real evidence yeah and obviously the Bellevue police department they are putting a thief in Sebastian through the
ringer here and it looks like these two well it looks like they're the main suspects uh if you follow this
investigation now we should point out that the detectives they did have other suspects or they should have had other
suspects and who were these people and how did they get this information well within just days following the murders
the Bellevue police department they received three tips through other law enforcement agencies regarding the
horrific triple homicide one was from a constable with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police the RCMP
one from an FBI informant and one from the Intelligence Division of the Seattle Police these tips are significant too
Captain because they provided names addresses phone numbers and the correct murder weapon and motives for the
murders as well the Bellevue Police Department discarded all of these leads well let's let's go through these leads
shall we so the first one from the RCMP a confidential informant contacted Constable galinas of the RCMP this
informant told the Constable that a man and we don't have the name of this man but the name was provided from the
informant to the constable this man told the informant that he had been offered twenty thousand dollars to
kill an East Indian family that had previously lived in Vancouver Canada and had moved to Bellevue Washington right
galinas decided that this information was regarding the rafae killings the informant told galinas he had heard this
two days before the murders were committed officer galinas contacted the Bellevue police department and the lead
investigators on the rafe murders and communicated this information to them the Bellevue investigators traveled to
Vancouver so I I guess I wasn't fair when saying that they didn't follow up on these leads because they attempted to
with this one they traveled to Vancouver and they knocked on the man's door uh they attempted to speak with this man on
two occasions however the man was either not home or just simply did not answer the door
uh for the police department so the Bellevue police they ultimately returned to the United States without having made
any contact with this tip with this tipster I mean he called at least he called in the evidence right but maybe
that's it hey this is what I heard that's all I know don't show up at my house because
obviously if people are putting out you know twenty thousand dollars on a hit on
a family you think they're not going to kill this guy well the other thing too is uh we have
to be clear that the the offering was for twenty thousand dollars to kill an East Indian family it
didn't specifically name the rafe family however you have to wonder is this lead
in fact talking about the rephase because it's I think it's very likely if not exactly the right family who fits the
description that the informant provided I mean I don't know how many people fit the description of an East Indian family
that had previously lived in Vancouver Canada and moved to Bellevue Washington right recently recently right
so uh is this the person who murdered the rafay family well what's the motive well the motive would be the twenty
thousand dollars that you're offered to no what's that why would you put the head out for are you paying twenty
thousand dollars to have this family killed well we haven't got to that point yet we're we're still discussing if this
person actually carried it out and the the thing is obviously no this This Confidential informant did not say who
had murdered the rafay family when giving this information right right he just simply said somebody was offered a
contract to murder a family right uh it's possible this man didn't accept the contract or the money
however since he talked about the contract before the rafe family was murdered at the very least investigators
could have discovered who wanted the Rave family killed and that's what you're getting at
right who who was if you had bothered to speak with this man you could at least find out who was the person offering up
the money offering up the contract because if this guy didn't accept it somebody else could have right or he or
he or she could have found other means of carrying out this these killings well there's another uh lead as well which is
pretty solid it comes from the FBI yeah the an FBI informant this is about five days after the homicides the Bellevue
Police Department received a call from the FBI advising that one of their informants had come forward providing
information about the murder of the buffet family the FBI informant and again we the name has been withheld from
this information do you want to reenact this call no told a detective of the Bellevue police
that a militant Islamic faction said that Tariq rafay this action yeah this is uh atif's father should die because
of his beliefs and teachings about the Quran the FBI informant also said that several
days after the homicides a member of this militant Islamic faction came to his house
and was worried that the FBI informant had seen a baseball bat that he and some other men had been carrying around in
their car so because of this the the FBI informant believed that the murder weapon used to
kill the rafae family was in fact the baseball bat which they didn't know at the time there was you know they had to
do some uh tests to make sure that it was a baseball bat that they believed was the murder weapon and But ultimately
that's where their investigation took them right but they find out that all right that they think it was in fact the
baseball bat that had killed the family and this is where the the Bellevue investigator's ears should perk up you
know because this this should be considered a credible lead because the informant knew the murder weapon before
this information was was common knowledge before it was made public and first of all it's the [ __ ] FBI
FBI it's not like so like Tony down the street told me about this guy with the baseball bat it's the FBI
you listen to them you know what I'm saying well in the the informant working for the FBI provided like we said
provided names addresses and phone numbers of these people to the police so they could follow up on this lead
instead of following up on the lead they basically said that the investigators basically thought that
this FBI informant was crazy right like oh this this person that came forward with this information is crazy therefore
we are not going to follow up on this why are they crazy um I don't know I I mean that that's how
dismissive they were of the lead they don't say this person's crazy because of a b and c or we went and spoke to this
person face to face and have figured out that they're not a credible Source right
and so instead they just dismiss it and say the person's crazy and and it's not a foreign faction right you didn't say
foreign faction right right right okay so but what is their motive it's not just his
what were they trying to kill him for um the way that it's described is that his his teachings about the Quran and
his beliefs about the Quran and I'll let you go into that so I I think the main thing was he was an engineer he did some
number figurines and realized that true East where they prayed to was actually off by like three degrees
or something like that by a minuscule amount very small amount so and this guy was uh engineer but also did a lot of
stuff with architecture and so it was one of those things where you know essentially you go well now all these
mosque and all these places in uh Canada need to be turn you need to jiggle them a bit right
we need to pick up all these buildings and move them and obviously you can't do that but I think it was pretty vocal
about that and again I I you know murdering is stupid for one but to you know to take somebody you're a
Muslim and you got another Muslim and there's just a couple things he disagrees with you on
and so you want to kill him that makes absolutely no sense to me it makes zero sense well and you know when
I read this information about how dismissive they were the they being the investigators regarding this lead you
know what popped in my my pee brain immediately your pointed head yeah was uh was art art who we spoke to regarding
the mara Murray case right and he's retired U.S Marshal and the first thing that he told us is in any investigation
to work it properly you should go where the evidence takes you right or even you
know they didn't even follow up on this lead is what I'm getting at right you know
the lead that gave you what the murder weapon is correct correct so even if it just investigate it
even for for some point to the point where you can find out and make a correct determination if it's in fact a
credible lead or not and the third and final lead is when the Seattle Police Intelligence Division called the
Bellevue police department and told them that they had information that the faqua
now I'm not saying that right f u q r a focra any dropping those f-bombs on the show oh crap I like the
chakra of the fakhra you're a real [ __ ] rat today there it's a it's a radical militant organization
that they may have been involved in these homicides and this is how the U.S state Department describes the focra
it's an Islamic sect that seeks to purify Islam through violence established sometime in the early 1980s
most cells are located in North America and the Caribbean fakra members have attacked a variety of targets that they
view as enemies of Islam including Muslims themselves in addition to uh not following up on this lead
the Bellevue police department they did not question any members of the Islamic community in Bellevue
to find out if if Dr rafay atif's father had conflicts with any Muslims in the area oh well and like we
said I mean let's think about this okay one you you have this engineer coming out and saying hey
true ease might not be true East going against you know your Holy Grail the the Quran right
so then you have this other informant saying hey there was this hit put out well maybe that hit was put out that
anybody in this extreme group right this extreme religious group that that that money goes to you if you
create this hit you see what I'm saying so it could be connected they could both
be connected both leads well not only both and here's here's one thing I question
and this is one thing that I think that the the Bellevue Police Department messed up on is that I think when they
receive this information you're you're talking about these are potentially huge leads all three of these are complicated
leads at that they're receiving all these leads within days of each other and here's what I'm guessing went down
I'm guessing that the the investigators probably thought well How can any of these leads be creditable
when we're receiving another lead that's so complicated just like the one we just
received meaning that even if one of them is true then two of them are false no and that's why you point out a good
thing that two of them could be connected hell all three of these could be connected and then with the [ __ ]
background they there was another murder that took place where they were responsible for the death uh of a family
a Muslim family and that father also was an engineer and was speaking up against
different things of the Muslim faith so I think we should leave you with that thought that's the thought that we're
leaving you with today is the possibility that not only one of these tips could be right all three of them
could be correct and they could be connected and I think some some of that too with the Bellevue Police Department
with when something is that big and also let's just be frank about it this happened before 9 11. and so I believe
if it happens after 9 11 maybe they take these leads a little more serious but these are also leads that are they're
bigger than you you would need to get somebody like the FBI involved well and that's another part where they messed up
think about this one of the tips is coming from an informant that is working with or helping the FBI in some form
right so therefore if you relay that information to me and you work for the FBI that's when I'm going I got this
triple homicide seems pretty complicated we're getting weird complicated leads and tips coming in uh guess what Mr FBI
agent thank you for bringing this information to our attention however this information came from you from your
division we need you to step in here and and oversee this or at the very least oversee that one tip yeah oversee that
one lead or please contact your higher ups and have them get involved so yeah I mean there's there's a lot
more to get into this case and uh let's do that uh tomorrow thanks to everybody for joining us in
the very cold wintry garage today I still got my coat on cat I'm freezing my fuckra off I hope
everybody out there stays warm and enjoy the rest of your day until tomorrow be good be kind and don't litter
[Music] [Applause]

True East Murders /// Part 1 /// 165

Part 1 of 2

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July 13th, 1994- just after 2a.m. The Bellevue Washington Police Department were called to a crime scene. Two teenagers, Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay returned to the Rafay family home. The house is located in a quiet upper middle class area of Bellevue. When they arrive, they stumbled onto a horrific scene. Atif's parents and sister had been brutally attacked. The young men called for help. Sebastian called 911 asking for police and an ambulance. First responders arrived on scene very quickly. Atif's older sister died at the hospital just a few hours after the attack. She was unable to tell the Detectives who had attacked her. This week in the Garage we discuss the triple homicide of the Rafay family and the investigation that followed.

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the brutal 1994 Rafay family murders and the ensuing police investigation, focusing on suspects and ignored leads.

Key points

The True East Murders. A horrific crime scene unfolds as Atif and Sebastian discover the attack on Atif's family.
The Attack Details. Detective Thompson describes the brutal nature of the murders, indicating a personal motive.
The Confusing 9-1-1 Call. Sebastian's call raises questions about his state of mind and the situation's urgency.
The Brutality of the Scene. The detectives grapple with the gruesome details of the crime scene.
The Shower Aftermath. The killer's use of the shower complicates the investigation, suggesting familiarity with the family.
Suspicion Arises. Doubts about Atif and Sebastian's innocence grow as evidence seems lacking.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

This case is confusing and there's a lot of things that aren't clear.

Introduction to the case

3:30WatchNov 27, 2022

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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