True East Murders /// Part 1 /// 165 | Forensic Files

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[Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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to True Crim garage.com click on that donate button BW wi beer run so kind of interesting how we got this week's case
suggestion we went to go see the black belt of comedians Michael lenoi and he is known worldwide as the greatest
kicking standup comedian of all time and while we were there we got the chance to
speak with him and Captain this was not a suggested case he threatened us he threatened us with his black belt and
the kicking and the comedy the kicking Styles he also has a podcast called guys night out so check that out you can see
him on tour he's opening up for The Elder himself the Cuda the M want to fire him crystalia and Mike was not the
only one to suggest this case this is a pretty popular case we've gotten a lot of suggestions for because it's been
covered on the confession tapes on Netflix yeah and this is a case that's confusing and there's a lot of things
that aren't clear a lot of things to sift through it's going to leave you maybe a little angry but hopefully we
can get to the bottom of this and that's why you want to gather around cuz we're
going to break it down for you so we can break it down grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
[Music] cribe [Music] July 13th 1994 just after 2: a.m. the Belleview washhington Police Department are called
to a crime scene teenagers Sebastian Burns and Atif rafay returned to A's family's home
which is located in a quiet upper middle class area of Belleview when they arrive they stumbled
onto a horrific scene ati's parents and sister had been brutally attacked Sebastian Burns called 911
asking for an [Music] ambulance [Music] what you rep uh there's uh I need uh an ambulance what's the problem there there
some kind of freaking [Applause] okay just calm down what's the problem the two uh uh my friend his mom
and dad uh are we think they're dead just calm down I I don't think it's safe here I want we'll be outside okay
go ahead go outside please fast okay they're on the way they're on the way hold out side okay go
[Music] ahead as the young men waited for help to arrive ati's older sister bosma was
clinging to life moaning in her bedroom detective Bob Thompson was one of the officers that responded to the scene of
the attacks according to him it appeared A's mother was the first to be killed A's
father was the next to be murdered detective Thompson said it was Overkill and it looked like someone had hit the
man 40 or 50 times ati's sister died at the hospital just a few hours after the attack unable to tell the detectives who
had attacked her this is the true East murders [Music] the clip that was played there the 911
call that is 18-year-old Sebastian Burns calling to report that when he had returned with his friend Atif back to
their home back to A's home that they found A's mother and father very badly beaten to the point that they believe
them to be dead mhm they found A's sister very badly beaten um near death and they're calling in they're asking
for police they're asking for ambulance they're asking for help they're afraid that whoever did this whoever
perpetrated this attack may still be in the home and they decide to go and wait outside until the police arrive now I've
read some reports here that state that the police did have a little trouble finding the location of the crime scene
finding the home that they were calling about uh and as we stated Sebastian and Atif would have been outside waiting for
the police and they had to flag down the police to show them where in fact the house was a little background here
captain on the rafay family the rafay family was the the family that was attacked so the rafay family of four had
just moved to Belleview Washington from Vancouver Canada the father Tariq RAF was a very talented structural engineer
who had worked on buildings all over the world the mother Sultana she had a doctorate in nutrition
and but she devoted her life to raising her children this is bosma and Atif me similar to me I mean have my doctorate
but I I continue to work on the podcast I have many doctorates from many of the highest
um the highest of points like Mount Everest from some of the best universities on both the east and west
coast but enough about me right um Sebastian and Atif they had been best friends since high school both of them
were very I can you know I've I've seen interviews with these guys read stuff with these guys I can honestly say they
are very smart young men um probably more intelligent than me even though I hold all those doctorates from many very
distinguished universities now Sebastian was raised in a loving family with English roots and grew up playing
classical cello uh he became a member of the royal uh Canadian Air Cadets and was
given an award by Prince Edward like we said both of these guys are intellectuals but the other problem with
these two guys is they actually believe that they are smarter than probably what
they are and smarter than everybody they assume a lot lot of times that they are
smart they're the smartest guy in the room yeah that just kind of that kind of just bleeds through them
doesn't it when you when you when you see them speaking and everybody knows that kind of guy in high school where
where you know he's smart all your friends know he's smart but it's the fact that he puts himself on a pedestal
that you're just like yeah you know thisy there's an arrogance about both of these young men it stinks Atif attended
uh Cornell University so he he is in his summer year of college right Cornell is a Ivy League school but
it was the only Ivy League school that accepted him so it wasn't like he had a bunch of options so let's as far as Ivy
League schools go let's clean up this background information here a little bit before we move into the crime and the
crime scene um so the rafay family of four had just moved to Belleview Washington from Vancouver Canada during
this time three people were living in the rafay home Atif is away at college and his friend Sebastian still lives up
in Canada now during this night on this night when they find A's parents murdered and his sister attacked Atif
had been staying he had been visiting his family from college for a few nights and his best friend from high school
Sebastian came down to visit him while he was staying in Belleview Washington Washington obviously much closer to
Vancouver than Cornell University so the two friends Atif and Sebastian had been
out for a night out on the town when they returned to A's home and they discovered that this attack had occurred
so let's take a look at what went down in the crime scene is there any evidence to tell us who the perpetrator or
perpetrators are uh what are the investigator suspicions and what are they finding at the crime scene and we
can do that as we go through this uh sort of timeline here starting with with the 2 a.m. marker on July 13th 1994 so
as we said Sebastian and Atif discovered the bodies of ati's parents and they call 911 this is roughly at 2: a.m. and
we know this because the 911 call comes in at 2011 a.m. now ati's sister bosma she then shortly later dies in the
hospital from injuries inflicted from that attack from the time that the boys found the body
until 8:30 a.m. that morning Sebastian and Atif are up all night with police mostly at the Belleview Police
Department during this time they are each interviewed separately twice when asked where they had been that evening
the boys provided a full account stating that at 8:30 p.m. they drove to a place
called The Keg restaurant for a bite to eat they had a salad and they each had a
glass of wine then they went to a 950 p.m. showing of the movie The Lion King after the movie they stopped for uh they
stopped off at a club and they left the waitress a tip uh a $6 tip on a $9 tab mhm I've actually I've seen this these
numbers reported slightly different on this uh what their tab was and what their tip was the General thought is
that they left uh what would be considered to be a high a noticeably High tip for whatever they
purchased at that club MH Sebastian and Atif provided police with their clothing
that they wore that evening they were both examined by um an alternative light source for evidence of blood spatter and
examined for gunshot residue when both tests come up negative correct the first thing that troubled police was how could
Sebastian and Atif provide so much detail about where they had been that evening but not recall key moments at
the murder scene well I mean I think one of the explanations would be you know you got
fight or flight and you know anytime and they flew yes yes they flew and I think
then it's the idea of what can you remember because you're in shock I mean it's like the 911 call and we can break
that down later but uh some people see somebody that's trying to lie or put on a show and some people see um somebody
that is in complete shock and has no clue what to do well here's my thoughts on their I personally I think this is a
weird thing for the police to say that this drew some suspicion for them how could they provide so much detail about
what they had been doing that evening but not recall key moments at the Mur scene and and I need to be a little more
clear about what they mean by that but let's get into that that here because first of all we we see that they're at a
restaurant at 8:30 p.m. they're not according to their story they do not return home till 2:
a.m. okay so that's 5 and 1 half hours yeah you can provide a lot of detail of something you were doing for 5 and a
half hours right when they returned to the crime scene when they found A's parents it would have been a matter of
minutes by the time they would have called 911 and went to that fight or flight mode and flew out of the home and
and remained out by the curb to wait for police to arrive so you're talking about
a comparison of 5 1/2 hours to a matter of minutes of course you're going to get
more detail from something that you spent that amount of time on yeah so the story is is that they got home roughly
about 2:00 and then when they entered the home they're probably only in the home for about 3 minutes until the 911
call was placed right so I personally for me I don't see anything weird about not knowing that this is where it does
get a little weird though when when they are taking when they are going through the
crime scene and they're going through the home they're asking Atif and Sebastian if if they had touched any of
the victims and Atif can't REM like most of the time he's saying I might have touched my mom I I don't think I did no
I don't think I did and that's basically how he answers when he's he's question about his mother and his father mhm I
may have but I don't think I did no I probably did not I understand that we have a situation where he's probably
very much in shock um I have a hard time believing that he wouldn't be aware if he touched
his if he touched any of the victims and why would this be a key thing for the police well and this is
why I think he could be vague about it if he is trying to hide something you would rather be vague about whether you
touch one of the victims than to give a definitive answer because they're going to be able to do test on you like we
said testing for blood spatter testing for gunshot residue they're going to do tests on you that will determine whether
you are being honest about having touched the victims or not sometimes the honest answer is I don't know mhm now
detectives also point out that the killer or Killers may have known the victims and obviously we come across
this with the every case that we cover that's always a possibility and usually it's a
likelihood they could find no signs of forced entry and that is going to be something
that could be key here because remember on the 911 call the first thing that Sebastian says is there appears to have
been some sort of Breakin there the police arable to find any signs of forced entry so what does
that mean when well could could the killer or Killers have gained access to the home without breaking in possible
possible people leave their doors unlocked people figure out ways to get into homes could The Killers or killer
have known the victims and were let into the home that's a possibility as well gained access to the home through one of
the victims themselves right or they got lucky and there was just the door wasn't
locked or did the killer kill were they already inside the home when the attack went down and they didn't
need to gain entry into the home mhm so those are your options there if you cannot find a sign of of obvious Breakin
this the thought that the perpetrators may have known the victims also comes up in this fact of the crime scene so
detective Thompson would say that the mother ati's mother was attacked first she was downstairs and then we have the
father who was upstairs presumably sleeping mhm that he was attacked second in his bed and how were these
individuals attacked um it it had appeared that it would have been with with the t's mother anyway that it would
have been a a like a blitz attack that she probably was surprised and struck with a heavy object right so a hammer or
a baseball bat or something like that yeah board anything like that um that same weapon was used again on thief's
father upstairs in the bedroom as he lies sleeping that would be a sneak attack pretty much that he was unaware
that he was being attacked probably did not hear his wife having been attacked just before him so the father though
was was brutalized I mean he was hit just like Thompson said 40 or 50 times let's go back to the mom real quick cuz
she was hit she was dead uh her face was covered somebody covered her face probably afterwards mhm and she was
Facing East mhm which uh this is a Muslim family so that would be the direction in which they pray mhm so then
let's go to the father so she was kind of killed but almost shown some kind of respect after the murder I guess uh if
that makes any sense and then the father is just bludgeon not only bludgeon he was he was destroyed the killer didn't
want to just to to kill A's father that person wanted to destroy him like I said
detective Thompson saying it looked like he had been hit 40 or 50 times and whatever object was used to kill the man
had sprayed matter yeah there's blood everywhere yeah not just blood we got we got blood we got teeth we got
pieces of bone skin flesh there's there's matter all over sprayed all over that room from wherever he was hit and
then pulled back up again struck again and every time you do that it's bringing a little bit with it when you pull it
back up and it's spraying it on the walls in the ceiling of this bedroom then we have the sister the older Atif
older sister bosma who is attacked last and we haven't brought it up yet but his
sister is uh she's autistic yeah and I don't know the I don't know the severity of her autism and I bring that up
because of a statement that the police made I want to be very clear this is the police statement not there's different
there's different spectrums yeah so the police's statement would be that this points again that the killer
knew the family that knew the family well to the point that they would have attacked the parents first and killed
the parents first attacking the sister last knowing that she would be unable to call
911 right that's what the police had stated now to the 911 call Captain remember we had stated Sebastian said
there was some type of Breakin and I want to talk about what the detectives say that they are seeing at the home not
only no sign of forced entry but also just looking at the room and rooms of the home they're stating that it appears
to the detectives that boxes were okay so the home they had recently moved there right
so you have a lot of boxes that have not been unpacked and put away these items have not been put away yet right so
whoever broke into this home quote unquote broke into this home they didn't appear to
have sifted through items that were still in the boxes um the detective said that it looked like they just tipped
over boxes yeah that they didn't really go through anything the drawers were open but nobody it just looked like
people open up the drawer maybe looked inside didn't didn't rumage around didn't pull anything out yes so go ahead
right and Atif is the one that's going to say well my walkman's missing I think the VCR is missing yes this is also an
individual yes he is the son of the the parents that were murdered um but he hasn't lived in this property for a long
time you know he's been away at school so like you said first of all the house isn't put
together you know fully yet yeah from the move and then you have an individual that's only been there for a couple days
so now you're trying to say hey what's missing MH well that's a lot easier to do when the house is put together but
when the house isn't put together it all looks like stuff's missing yeah I here's
the thing though I I kind of I'm going to go with the and if if for anybody out there that is unfamiliar with this case
you can see what road we're going down here it's starting to look like the police have suspicions regarding Atif
and Sebastian right okay and that's why we're going through these crime scene items one at a time now I have to kind
of go with the the police's if they're being honest if they're being unbiased in their
opinion I have to go with their belief when they say you know it looks like people kind of staged this break in I
because they they would have seen robberies in and burglaries a hundred times you know you you you're a
detective you've been on the force for quite some time by the time you're a detective and you've seen break-ins
you've seen uh this kind of thing go down and when it doesn't look right when it doesn't pass the smell test it it
looks like a setup to these guys it looks like a staged burglary well like I said there's a couple problems first
problem is they just moved into the property and the stuff is not put away so yeah you might have seen a bunch of
you know break-ins and burglaries before but how many times have you seen one where somebody's just moving in my other
issue with the police going down this road is the idea that you don't know what this person that might might you
know they might have broke in to kill you but there was a reason why they was rumaging through your stuff and that
reason could be a stack of papers or something that you would have no there would be no clear evidence that this
item is now missing you bring up a very good point there Captain so we have a stating that his walk
was was taken uh a VCR was taken from the home which seems crazy to have three people murdered just to take a vcr and a
Walkman um but you bring up a very good point we have three of the four family members are dead these people had just
moved there you're right there are items they could have had that if if Atif can't say okay this item's missing that
item's missing this stack of papers is missing we had um some Jew jewry that was missing if he doesn't report
something as not being still at the home the detectives are going to have no clue
that other additional items are actually missing from the home right like you said I mean you know his father was an
engineer and he was working on some uh pretty interesting stuff so we'll get back to that after the break but you
know again with the mother he's not going to know if a piece of jewelry is missing or something like that I I tell
you what I I lived with my father in my teenage years I lived with uh my before that and I couldn't have told you you
know if somebody broke into our home and stole half my mom's jewelry I wouldn't be able to tell you what any of it was
you know my father had guns in the home when we grew up and right machine guns all kinds of cannons cannons um hand
cannons I and you know what he um fancies himself a bit of a collector I wouldn't be able to tell you if the
guy's got two guns or if he has 10 you know what I mean I I just don't know it's not my personal belonging so
um yeah I would have no clue you bring up a very good point there well we'll get right back to my amazing points and
the point on your head right after this quick beer break this show is sponsored by better
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today all right we're back cheers mates cheers to you Captain so we have the 911
call to talk about um any anything that you find anything that jumps off the page to you immediately regarding the
911 call no uh and I wish we had a clear version I hate when we have a kind of crappy audio but I think you can
decipher it enough uh again I think this is a weird situation you know either you think
Sebastian is lying or you just think he is uh Disturbed or he's out of his mind so Sebastian's the one making the call
Atif presumably is in the home with him when this call is going down and we hear
immediately Sebastian sounds to be confused or stuttering um in a state of panic or shock that's what I hear that's
my you know that's my general thought on his behavior now I have seen several interviews with with Sebastian I've also
seen uh videotape footage of him speaking several times mhm he does on occasion have a little bit of a a
stutter a little bit of a stammer um so that's not doesn't it doesn't seem to be my thing is Captain I was trying
to figure out was this a put on was he putting this on this this act so I have to give him the benefit of the doubt
there and I don't feel like it's a total put on now one thing that I did find weird is several times he starts to say
something and then kind of stops and re kind of rears himself you know where he'll start to say um the two which it
sounded like he was about to say the two adults or the two parents um and then he says uh my my
friend's parents both of them he he struggles to find the right words and then he says we think they're dead he
just we think they're dead very fast like that right which I don't know maybe I'm maybe I'm putting this under the
microscope too much here because I don't know it's hard to say how anybody would
react in this situation but I do feel like where where the stutter and where the stammer might not be a put on I
question is he choosing his words and why would you take the time to choose your words especially when you end the
call saying hurry fast fast right but he might not be actually choosing his words
it might just be he's in the moment of speaking but because he's in such shock he he is trying to edit himself in his
brain cuz his brain is not functioning correctly mhm and uh you know the interview with him is he said I was out
of my mind when I was making that call so possibly you know he might not even remember the call the the fact of the
matter is you got two boys that walk into a situation this is their accounts they
see the dead mother MH they go up now now you have to check on the father he is brutally
murdered unrecognizable he would be unrecognizable maybe even as a you might not even recognize him as a person at
that point right um and then you and yeah and that room's completely covered in blood and then you got to check on
your sister but before you get to the point where you're checking on your sister you can hear her
mhm and uh you know you know so one would assume that you would run to her Aid to help her but uh also you might
again it's the fight ORF flight mentality and if your body tells you to to fly out of there there's nothing you
can do yeah so let's be clear about that his Atif sister was still alive during the
the call of the 911 she didn't die until they got her back to the hospital right
um but how much the boys the boys and I keep calling them boys they're 18-year-old young men at this point
right um but they're very sheltered this is this is upper middle class and online
they're offered often report uh referred to as the boys as well so I think that's
why that's seeped into my psyche here but so so Sebastian and Atif well hold on I was saying that they're upper
middle class I think that's important here yeah because these are 18 year-old kids that were sheltered very sheltered
and and I'd argue to say that they're just upper class kids mhm yeah yeah I found I found that Weir weird when they
describe them as upper middle class and then I saw the neighborhood and the homes in the neighborhood and I thought
well if that's upper I always thought I was middle class and when they said they
upper middle middle class I thought wow I'm poor as dirt we have a we have a podcast in the garage yeah you know the
homes were very nice and that's a very nice neighborhood so to me that looks like an upper class let's all right
let's get away from ke's dad was an engineer so I mean he has his Doctorate I mean he was doing well for himself but
they did not help his sister they did not help his dying sister right but it wasn't again that's you know so in some
terms you can say that and it makes it seem so bad it didn't help the dying sister she she was in a state that
neither one of them could have done anything without they they had no medical training so it wasn't like they
could really do anything to help her do you think they even opened the door to her room may I I think they did that's
one thing I question because I I couldn't find I could find parts of their interview where they where Atif
was being asked if he had touched the body of his mother or his father I couldn't find any parts of the actual
interview where he was being asked questions directly about his sister yeah well I think he said he knew there was
something he could do to help her right that that that's the only part I could find you know well his statement was I
don't even know how to put a you know I don't even know how to put a Band-Aid on
or something like that which I think was kind of a dumb statement but this was also in a situation where it's like if I
came into the garage and somebody bludging you and you're hanging on to dear life I can't do
nothing so I have two options uh sit there in the room I could call and sit in the room with you
and you know lose my appetite or I call the police and I step in the other room and you know pray to God that the
ambulance gets there quick enough to save you because I don't have the means in order to save you yeah I I just
wanted to hear from his from his mouth that they had in fact opened the door and in some form checked on her now
here's the other thing yeah I I don't know if I definitively ever saw him or heard him say that I also wanted to hear
him say definitively that he touched the body of his sister because you here's what what I'm getting at for him to to
lay out the assessment that I could there was nothing I could do there was nothing we could do to help her or to
save her I want there to be some kind of uh investigation by him to arrive to that
conclusion right but there was also the statement by Sebastian that we think that somebody is in the house
or possibly is in the house so based on their story these two guys go in they find the mom they find the dad then
there's the sister they hear the sister or maybe they see the Sister We're Not really clear on that but for whatever
reason when they go outside to make the 911 call they don't flee the scene right
they say we're here we're going to flag you down and we're staying outside because we think that maybe this
killer is still there and then police want to come out and say well that's a little odd don't you think why would you
just hang out outside if you think the Killer is in the house well look again there might be 18y old uh young men but
they're naive and they they can be as intellectual as they want these guys are not street smart at all these guys are
very sheltered so uh if it me and I walk into a house and there's this attack and I call the
police and I say hey you get here the police probably should tell you hey you might want to go outside the person
might still be in the house and there might be some evidence some noise that they heard that they were they went oh
[ __ ] oh [ __ ] do you hear something in the basement somebody might be in the house I'm finding a weapon and I'm going
outside and I'm giving myself some space and I'm going to keep my eyes on that house and if somebody comes out of that
house you know it's go time you got to fight for your life at that point you have
three dead people inside well and you you've made the right call essentially because remember you know when I worked
security for years one thing that they taught us was if you are trying to protect someone okay let's say there's a
Breakin K Fu let's say there's a break into to the garage right now okay and let's pretend that this garage has many
different rooms and we keep pretending the garage this episode and a couple different levels as well wouldn't it be
great if the garage actually did have several levels rul anyway one day my friend four levels so if somebody came
into the garage and they wanted to harm or kill you okay right doubt it but let me tell you
what what my training what what we were taught during this training was that unless you have unless you have some
kind of setup where you have like a Panic Room mhm which most home would not have a Panic Room not not a real legit
Panic Room not telling you if I have one or not but what I'm saying is that if my
job is to protect you from anything I'm I'm your security you have to listen to this all
right I hope my security works out a little bit more no but what the training taught us was or big weapons was that if
my job is to protect you against anything and somebody breaks into this home or to a place where you are staying
and I am guarding ing you mhm my number one object my number one um objective is to get you
outside unless there's a legit Panic Room the numbers say that as soon as I get you outside out of that building
rather than trying to hide you in a closet somewhere or rather than try to hide you in a room that's far away from
the break-in point right that the your your numbers of living and surviving that Breakin and that attack significant
increase if I get you outside so you in fact did the right thing and they in fact be it that they be naive
18-year-olds in fact did the right thing the the thing that I keep going back to
though is what how much information did they collect regarding the sister before
they decided that that that one there's nothing we can do for her before we flee
the home and two we can't flee the home with because there's a chance that if if
she's in a certain State you might be able to bring bring her with you out of the house right I and that didn't happen
as well and and and I think where the police are questioning their moves are they're saying well yes you went outside
but you were you're like you're like 20t 20 25 feet you know uh from the home right but what do you want them to do
run run a couple blocks away what do you want them to do well actually thank God they didn't because
they wouldn't have been there to flag down the police right um so no I'm not saying that that's I'm not questioning
what they did I'm bringing up the police and the and and the investigators thoughts and suspicions on their moves
throughout that evening right and that's just their opinions of what they think this means or that means oh what was his
demeanor on the 911 call what was their demeanor when we got there this is all speculation do we have any actual
evidence yeah well uh bust out the luminol this whole place is a crime scene so they're going to use the
luminol to spray down uh the crime scene they're looking for evidence of blood that's been washed
away don't ever say that at a party hey break out the luminol it's time to party
um but what they find here and this is very troubling they when they conduct this test it showed an enormous amount
of Blood on the shower walls so the killer had used the shower before leaving the killer popped in the shower
washed himself herself off and then left the scene um and now the police are wondering this okay this is a very this
is not a normal thing to go down at a at a murder scene at a triple homicide scene right um so this again is going to
lead them back to the thought that the the attacker knew the family and knew the family intimately knew them to the
point where they could they would have access to the home and they would also not be in such a hurry to leave the home
that they would clean themselves up before leaving the home right and like you said this is not very typical but we
have tons of blood in the room that the father was killed in tons of blood we have tons of splatter everywhere yeah so
if the killer had left the home in the clothes that they arrived in that they wore during the attack and didn't bother
to wash themselves off you would see a person covered in blood from head to toe leaving the crime
right and leaving evidence as they went so possibly this this is something that could be considered like a hit Type move
Killer goes in kills its victims cleans itself up cleans themselves up um and we
have hairs found in the shower as well mhm and those hairs that they're going to find they're going to find over 20
some hairs mhm in that shower and that's going to be of Sebastian Burns but he was staying at the house
for 3 days prior right so there's your reason why if there is going to be any hairs in that shower that's reasons why
well let's let's talk about why the I mean we already it's obvious why the killer would take a shower but let's
talk about like what you said if this was a hit or if somebody had came in to kill the family for some
reason it it has happened in other crimes there's other crimes that I've read about where the killer has in fact
done something that was totally unnecessary at a crime scene where they've they've killed people and then
they they decided to sit in the kitchen and drink a few beers before they left or they had a bowl of cereal or they
took a they took a shower to clean themselves up or I'm just joking but but you would have think about
this if somebody was planning if someone had planned this murder and somebody had
watched the family because the first thing you got to question is your immediate thought would be as soon as
you kill this family that you would want to flee the scene as fast as possible to
evade capture right mhm that's your immediate first thought but if I had been watching this family and I had been
planning to kill this family now keep in mind maybe I did my surveillance on the
home and on the family the week before mhm and my and my surveillance ended I watched them for a a course of three or
four days the week before well according to my surveillance my belief would be my
knowledge would tell me that only three people live in that home right and so having just killed all three of them I
may not be in a huge hurry to leave the home I I might make a bunch of noise right I might take the time to clean
myself up if I brought a duffel bag with a with a change of clothes in that duffel bag annihilated this family
hopped in the shower threw my bloody clothes in the duffel bag put on the fresh clothes walked out of there all
you would see is one very handsome very clean man walking out with the duffel bag right that's
um that's opinion right but so what I'm getting at is it's not impossible it doesn't have to be Atif or Sebastian or
the two of them having lived there or staying there that took the shower right so the the cops are again and let's
reiterate the fact that the cop then question them for hours they do test there's no trace of blood I mean one
would argue that oh well they took a shower so that's why there's no blood cuz they washed it all off there's a lot
of blood a lot of blood I would I would actually have to argue that somebody would have to take quite a long shower
to make sure they didn't have any any blood on them mhm and so again these guys are not Mastermind killers that we
we know of so would they would they even know if they had any residue left on them who knows well I think but I think
there in lies the problem is that let's say Atif and Sebastian are totally innocent and all they did was stumble
onto a crime scene the problem here is you find nothing on these guys you would actually if they were just victims that
had stumbled onto a crime scene you would I would actually believe that I would find something on them and and to
me that is why it looks very suspicious it it's not so much that why why would you find something on them because some
of those rooms were covered in in blood the the the father's bedroom was covered
in in matter right and I'm sure whatever shoes they were wearing had evidence on
them but because they were at the crime scene cops never reported that but if you just walk into rooms and you don't
touch anything then what are they going to find on you I just other than your shoes I do have a hard time believing
that they wouldn't have touched anything and I don't necessarily mean a victim um
again but this is these are upper class kids they're sheltered I'm talking about
who cares about sheltered or not sheltered I'm talking about if I walk into a room and I see a dead body
whether I choose to you're going to run up and hug it what no what I'm saying is
whe whether I choose to to investigate further and touch the body or not I probably wouldn't what I'm saying is if
I walked into a room and I found someone dead whether it be a family member or not there's a good chance I might have
to grab a wall to brace myself from falling over I might have to go down to one knee because I'm I'm in total shock
right but who says that they that they didn't the blood evidence says that they didn't no you just the they didn't touch
the evidence you know what I mean so and then the other thing well they wouldn't
have they didn't do it in the father's bedroom right but that could be as simple as them walking in and I mean you
don't have to walk into that room to see that guy's dead no I I know that I know that but what I'm saying is I I
find it very strange that given the description of the crime scene and how much blood there was that these guys had
nothing on them but they're in the house for how long or three probably 3 to four
minutes so right so within three 3 to four minutes they're making a call to 911 and they're waiting outside on the
curb right but I don't have to convince you I'm just telling you my suspicions this this seems very suspicious to me no
no I I get the Leaning that way but I look like I'm saying I think there's that there's a ob there's a explanation
for that because one the first person you're seeing is not so brutal and then the next I think you know if they're
telling this truth that once they got to the father's room that that was it that was the
Tipping Point this is awful and we need to get out of here but it but to add to your point with with them being uh you
say sheltered I actually think with them being sheltered that they would be even
more shocked and even more unable to control themselves at the at the crime scene yeah but I think that's what led
them to the flight mentality you know what I mean they I think it it was quickly let's get the hell out of here
we don't know what's going on here and if somebody is um if the Killer is still here we need to get out of here uh way
more so than than maybe somebody else the initial questioning of Sebastian and Atif ends at 8:30 a.m. that day when an
officer takes the two men to buy clothes they go remember they provided the clothes to the detectiv so they need
something to wear they take them to buy some clothes and they take them to eat breakfast afterwards the officer takes
Sebastian and Atif to the Belleview motel and the two having been up all night they're now at the hotel they
presumably sleep until about 2:00 p.m. that afternoon right at 2: p.m. they are picked up again by detectives and taken
back to the Belleview Police Department for further questioning this also during
this time they also conduct fingerprinting and photographing of the two young men they are let go at about
6:00 p.m. they are released from this uh at 6: p.m. from there the two go to a video store and Sebastian and Atif rent
a VCR in several movies at 9:00 p.m. Blockbuster at 900 P p.m. Sebastian calls his father to tell the tell him
what has happened right so a couple things here um so they're staying in a hotel that's being furnished for them by
um the police right so and that that makes sense you you have these kids if they're not involved they're definitely
victims and this kid's whole life has changed cuz his whole family has been murdered mhm but they're also our number
one suspect SL lead mhm that we have so we need to keep them close so you sleep all day then you get
questioned and then you probably don't want to go out or do anything no so a lot of people have really kind of
speculated that well these guys are definitely guilty they went to Blockbuster and rented some
movies uh I don't know look you're you're two 18-year-old boys this tragic event just happened you were
up all night being questioned you were then questioned again um maybe you're sitting in the hotel room hey the hotel
room might not have cable or maybe it has cable and there's just nothing on and you go hey let's just go rent some
movies so Public Access channel is all it had I'm joking I don't I don't know that but but it's just funny to me that
you know people will sit there and speculate oh you know they rented some movies they're they're murder MERS like
I don't know I think that stuff is a stretch nobody you would not know what you would do in those circumstances if
it you know until it happens well I agree with that 100% I do have to call into question myself because when I saw
this report that they had done this I found it a I didn't find it particularly like overboard weird or strange I did
question it a little bit but then I remembered uh way back with when we covered Casey Anthony and she had gone
to the video store and I'm probably I I don't know that I can't recall my reaction but my guess my gut tells me I
probably held her feet to the Flames for going to the video store so I I should do so I guess in this case as well um
yeah but she's a crazy [ __ ] I mean so uh one thing I did find strange is the N9 PM phone call from Sebastian to his
father this seems like a very traumatic event to somebody to anybody obviously I
I feel like I I really wonder the delay for that phone call um and obviously Sebastian's not here with us
to to explain why there was what I would call a delay maybe that maybe he felt that was his only and first opportunity
to actually make that phone call and it was something he had wanted to do all day long however I see that there's some
windows of time where that phone call could have been made and did not happen yeah
yeah look I think uh again there's all these little actions that people put on to people to go hey they're guilty they
rented movies they they watch The Lion King first of all what 18-year-old boys are going to
go get salad in some wine and watch The Lion King together that's how I spent every Friday night H we're going to have
to get another Co that's how I spent last Friday night no um here's the thing Captain though the the but but I I got
to harp on this phone call for a little bit because had I been with you or with any of my other friends and discovered
their friends let me finish thought though go ahead the reason why you know like I was saying everybody harps on
this or that for all we know they go right from the murder scene the crime scene to
questioning and theop cops might have told them since they're 18 they're on that cusp they might have said look um
they might have asked do you need to call your dad or you need to call your parents or maybe they didn't or maybe
they called them for them I mean there could be some little tiny piece of information that we don't know that's
why I'm not going to harp on harp on it too much I don't know if it leads either
way he either it was the first opportunity he felt that he could call or he knew that he had to wait a a time
period before he's able to call his father again though there there are clear windows of time that he would have
been able to call them but we have to factor in some other things we don't know what his parents schedules were
maybe during those windows was a time he he believed he would be unable to get a
hold of either his father or mother the other thing too is I guess I'm questioning why he delayed calling his
parents and the reason being is um what I should probably question is his relationship with his parents you know
I'm kind of looking at it in my shoes I'm looking at it like look I'm in my 30s if something that traumatic happened
to me probably the first thing I would probably want to do is call somebody that that makes me feel some kind of
sense of Safety and Security and that would be one of my parents the thing though is I have a good relationship
with my parents I I shouldn't assume that he has a good relationship with his yeah and but also we have Sebastian
hanging out with Atif and Atif is his best friend and how much consoling is he doing for Atif that just lost his father
his mother and his older sister that's true he could be tending to his his good friend now on the day after the bodies
were found in the early afternoon Sebastian and Atif go to Barnes & Noble bookstore at about 300 p.m. the
detectives locate the two men at the bookstore and they request another meeting with each of them Atif
participates in a 3-hour taped interview and Sebastian does an hour and a half taped interview with the investigators
and at no point these guys are asking for a lawyer well not only that they're cooperating they've handed over their
closed anytime these investigators and detectives are asking for interviews they're doing that and
they're allowing the interviews to be taped they're probably writing things uh writing statements as well during this
time they've submitted to fingerprints to other forms of test they're they're cooperating in every form and fashion
that you would ask of a person expect of a person and they're doing that now on July 15th in the morning the Canadian
consulate uh calls to obtain permission from the Belleview Police Department to return Sebastian and Atif to Sebastian's
parents who live in Vancouver right okay so to make this a little more clear so when Sebastian ends up talking with his
father his father starts going okay they're questioning these 18-year-old boys they need to come home mhm this is
not right so what they do like we said they're in a hotel room that is being they're being put up by the police
department mhm so they have their their contact even though that they had contact with the detectives and stuff
themselves and had their numbers they didn't call it's kind of like when you call in to work sick you
know you'd be like 16 and you're you're sick and you but you don't want to call in MH so you try to get your parents to
call in for you you know I mean it's kind of the same thing I think they didn't want to talk to the detectives I
think they were also nervous they're being told by Sebastian's father hey come home you
need to come home if they're questioning you multiple times you need to come home
and so they have their CS call they say hey it's fine they're allowed to go they're they're not doing
anything wrong so they leave and then what does the police department do they run to the press and then tell
the press that these two individuals they're fleeing yeah and the funny thing is when you go back and you find
newspaper reports uh from July of 94 it's obvious that that's the what the media believed as well that's what's
reported that the two fled to Canada and that's why I wanted to point out that a
consulate employee called bellw police asking for permission stating that you know basically they're saying is it okay
if these two young men leave is it okay that they return to Canada and you got to keep in mind here Sebastian that's
his family that's where he lives that's where he's from he was just visiting and
then furthermore Atif his family's been killed Sebastian's family might be the closest thing he has to family at this
point right but I'd also say at this point in his life you know Canada is more his home you know he's a he's a
citizen of Canada right I don't think he's an American citizen he had lived in Canada for the majority of his life they
had lived in multiple countries but but he lived in Canada for the majority of his life well and the thing that's going
to happen once he gets to Canada is he misses his family's funeral and that becomes a big deal yeah so we had have
at approximately 10:00 a.m. on July 15th 1994 the lead detective on the case in Belleview learns that the rafay funeral
will take place that day and then that evening Sebastian and Atif they are now at the Burns residence in Canada and
they're watching the evening news and that is when Atif discovers from watching the news that his family's
funeral was planned and took place that day without him being there well I guess
in the traditional Muslim uh Traditions I guess you have to be buried within a certain time period okay so it's like I
want to say three to four days so the argument here is that he would have known uh based on tradition but again
here's what's weird is we don't know we don't know this Dynamic we know that his
family's Muslim but we don't know how Orthodox or unorthodox they are but his his um surrounding family is the one
that that took care of the the funeral arrangements so he might not have known right
um it it's a little odd though I mean I think I could totally see Sebastian's Dad saying you guys need to come home
um you know does Atif come with you or not I say I say yes bring him with us but what I thought was interesting was
when uh Sebastian's dad was talking about this and said we're watching the evening news and we see that uh not only
there was a funeral but they're going hey a teeth missed the funeral what's up with that right mhm that that the mom
said off camera if you watch this uh this was on the confession tapes uh Netflix confession tapes it's episode
one and two she's off camera and she says hey it wasn't that he was just upset he literally like yelled at the TV
mhm and like almost like Dove towards the TV and anger well and in all fairness too I don't know Muslim
tradition well enough to say that you know how many days is the rule right but I just want to point out to the
listeners that are that are wandering so we have the bodies are discovered at 2 a.m. on July 13th the date we're talking
about is the funeral would have been on July 15th so 2 days later now was it tradition that it's 3 days 4 days I
don't know but what I'm getting at is what I'm saying is the the the protocol is that they have to be buried within
that time period within a certain amount of time right right right what I'm what
I wanted to point out here was that we're stating that there's a good chance that t would have known what the
tradition would be and should have had an idea of what was going to happen right if that's even if that is the case
if he does have that knowledge what I'm pointing out here is they left the morning of the 15th and took a bus back
to Vancouver I don't know how many hours it took them to get there what I'm getting at is this was only 2 days later
so if Atif thought that they had three or four days whatever it is maybe he thought that somebody would contact him
and he could just hop on a bus and go right back down and attend the services I don't I don't know what the the time
frame is on that but obviously he took this bus and it only took him a few hours to or took hours to get there
right and now a lot of this stuff they're going to say why did this happen or why did this happen and Atif and
Sebastian always kind of come back to this same explanation We Were Young We're Just Kids N you know there's
there's certain times in your life that you have to kind of Step Up and and be more adultlike I think um whether it was
A's fault or his family's fault that he wasn't at the funeral I think there's evidence that shows that he was uh upset
about it and so I would I assume that that's not his doing if why would you be upset about something that you decided
not to be at um so either here nor there there's no uh this is just all speculation this this is not
real evidence yeah and obviously the Belleview police department they are putting Atif and Sebastian through the
ringer here and it looks like these two well it looks like they're the main suspects uh if you follow this
investigation now we should point out that the detectives they did have other suspects or they should have had other
suspects and who were these people and how did they get this information well within just days following the murders
the Belleview police department they received three tips through other law enforcement agencies regarding the
horrific triple homicide one was from a constable with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police the
RCMP one from an FBI informant and one from the Intelligence Division of the Seattle Police these tips are
significant too Captain because they provided names addresses phone numbers and the correct murder weapon and
motives for the murders as well the Belleview Police Department discarded all of these leads well let's let's go
through these leads shall we so the first one from the RCMP a confidential informant contacted Constable galenus of
the RCMP this informant told the Constable that a man and we have the name of this man but the name was
provided from the informant to the Constable this man told the informant that he had been offered $20,000 to kill
an East Indian family that had previously lived in Vancouver Canada and had moved to Belleview Washington right
galenus decided that this information was regarding the rafay killings the informant told galenus he had heard this
two days before the murders were committed uh officer galenus contacted the Belleview police department and the
lead investigators on the rafay murders and communicated this information to them the Belleview investigators travel
to Vancouver so I I I guess I wasn't fair when saying that they didn't follow up on these leads because they attempted
to with this one they traveled to Vancouver and they knocked on the man's door uh they attempted to speak with
this man on two occas however the man was either not home or just simply did not answer the door uh
for the police department so the Belleview police they ultimately returned to the United States without
having made any contact with this tip with this tipster I mean he called at least he called in the evidence right
but maybe that's it hey this is what I heard that's all I know don't show up at my house mhm because obviously if people
putting out you know 20 $1,000 to on a hit on a family you think they're not going to kill this guy well the other
thing too is uh we have to be clear that the the offering was for $20,000 to kill
an East Indian family it didn't specifically name the raay family however you have to wonder is this lead
in fact talking about the rafes because it it's I think it's very likely if not exactly the right family who fits the
description that the informant provided I mean I don't know how many people fit the description of an East Indian family
that had previously lived in Vancouver Canada and moved to Belleview Washington right recently recently right so uh is
this the person who murdered the rafay family well what's the motive well the motive would be the $20,000 that you're
offered to no what's the why would you put the head out for why you paying $20,000 to have this family killed well
we haven't got to that point yet we're we're we're still discussing if this person actually carried it out and the
the thing is obviously no this This Confidential informant did not say who had murdered the raay family when giving
this information right right he just simply said somebody was offered a contract to murder a family right uh
it's possible this man didn't accept the contract or the money however since he talked about the contract before the
raay family was murdered at the very least investigators could have discovered who wanted the r family
killed and that's what you're getting at right who who was if you had bothered to
speak with this man you could at least find out who was the person offering up the money offering up the contract
because if this guy didn't accept it somebody else could have right or he or he or she could have found other means
of carrying out this these killings well there's another uh lead as well which is
pretty solid it comes from the FBI yeah the an FBI informant this is about 5 days after the homicides the Belleview
Police Department received a call from the FBI advising that one of their informants had come forward providing
information about the murder of the raay family the FBI inform it and again we the name has been withheld from this
information do you want to reenact this call no told a detective of the Belleview
police that a militant is Islamic faction said that Tariq RAF this is faction yeah this is A's father should
die because of his beliefs and teachings about the Quran the FBI informant also said that
several days after the homicides a member of this militant Islamic faction came to his house and was worried that
the FBI informant had seen a baseball bat that he and some other men had been carrying around in their car so because
of this the the FBI informant believed that the murder weapon used to kill the rafay family was in fact the baseball
bat which they didn't know at the time there was you know they had to do some uh tests to make sure that it was a
baseball bat that they believed was the murder weapon and But ultimately that's where their investigation took them
right that they find out that that they think it was in fact the baseball bat that had killed the family and this is
where the the bellw investigator's ears should perk up you know because this this should be considered a credible
lead because the informant knew the murder weapon before this information was was common knowledge before it was
made public and first of all it's the [ __ ] FBI mhm FBI it's not like some like Tony down the street told me
about this guy with a baseball bat it's the FBI you listen to them you know what I'm
saying well and and the informant working for the FBI provided like we said provided names addresses and phone
numbers of these people to the police so they could follow up on this lead instead of following up on the lead they
basically said that the investigators basically thought that this FBI informant was crazy right like oh this
this person that came forward with this information is crazy therefore we are not going to follow up on this why why
are they crazy um I don't know I I mean that that's how dismissive they were of the lead they don't say this person's
crazy because of a b and c or we went and spoke to this person face to face and have figured out that they're not a
credible Source right and so instead they just dismiss it and say the person's crazy and and it's not a
foreign faction right you didn't say foreign faction I said Islamic faction faction yeah right but isn't it like a
isn't that the John Benet Ramsay thing well that claims to be a foreign fact action Comm okay so but what is their
motive it's not just his what were they trying to kill him for um the way that it's described is that his his teachings
about the Quran and his beliefs about the Quan and I'll let you go into that so I I think the main thing was he was
an engineer he did some number figurines and realized that true East where they pray to was actually off M by like 3° or
something like that by a minuscule amount very small amount so and this guy was uh engineer but also did a lot of
stuff with architecture and so it was one of those things where you know essentially you go well now all these
mosque and all these places in uh Canada need to be turned you need to jiggle them a bit right we need to pick up all
these buildings and move them and obviously you can't do that but I think he was pretty vocal about that and again
I I you know murdering is stupid for one but to you know to take somebody you're
you're a Muslim and you got another Muslim and there's just a couple things he disagrees with you on and so you want
to kill him MH that makes absolutely no sense to me it makes zero sense well and
you know when I read this information about how dismissive they were the they being the investigators regarding this
lead you know what popped in my my PE brain immediately your pointed head yeah was uh was art art who we spoke to
regarding the mara Murray case right and he's retired US Marshal and the first thing that he told us is in any
investigation to work it properly you should go where the evidence takes you right or even you
know they didn't even follow up on this lead is what I'm getting at you know the
lead that gave you what the murder weapon is correct correct so even if it it just investigate it even for for some
point to the point where you can find out and make a correct determination if it's in fact a credible lead or not and
the third and final lead is when the Seattle Police Intelligence Division called the Belleview police department
and told them that they had information that the FAA I'm not saying that right fq R A fakra he those F bombs on the
show fakra I like the chakra of the fakra you're a real fakra today the it's a it's a radical militant organization
that they may have been involved in these homicides and this is how the US state department describes the fakra
it's an Islamic sect that seeks to purify Islam through violence established sometime in the early
1980s most cells are located in North America and the Caribbean fakra members have attacked a variety of targets that
they view as enemies of Islam including Muslims themselves in addition to uh not
following up on this lead the Belleview police department they did not question any members of the Islamic community in
Bellevue to find out if if Dr rafay A's father had conflicts with any Muslims in
the area oh well and like we said I mean let's think about this okay one you you
have this engineer coming out and saying hey true East might not be true East m going against you know your Holy Grail
the the Quran right so then you have this other informant saying hey there was this hit put out well maybe that hit
was put out that anybody in this extreme group right this extreme religious group that that that money goes to you
if you create this hit you see what I'm saying so it could be connected they could both be connected both leads well
not only both and here's here's one thing I question and this is one thing that I think that the the Belleview
Police Department messed up on is that I think when they received this information you're you're talking about
these are potentially huge leads all three of these are complicated leads M at that they're receiving all these
leads within days of each other and here's what I'm guessing went down I'm guessing that the the investigators
probably thought well how can any of these leads be creditable when we're receiving another lead that's so
complicated just like the one we just received meaning that even if one of them is true then two of them are false
not necessarily no and that's why you point out a good thing that two of them could be connected hell all three of
these could be connected and then with the F the f fak they there was another murder that took place where uh they
were responsible for the death uh of a family a Muslim family and that father also was an engineer and was speaking up
against different things of the Muslim faith so I think we should leave you with that thought that's the thought
that we're leaving with you with today is the possibility that not only one of these tips could be right all three of
them could be correct and they could be connected and I think some some of that too with
the Belle view Police Department with when something is that big and also let's just be frank about it this
happened before 9/11 and so I I believe if it happens after 9/11 maybe they take
these leads a little more serious but these are also leads that are they're bigger than you you would need to get
somebody like the FBI involved well and that's another part where they messed up
think about this one of the tips is coming from an informant that is working with or helping the FBI in some form
right so therefore if you relay that information to me and you work for the FBI that's when I'm going I got this
triple homicide seems pretty complicated we're getting weird complicated leads and tips coming in uh guess what Mr FBI
agent thank you for bringing this information to our attention however this information came from you from your
division we need you to step in here and and oversee this or at the very least oversee that one tip overse that one
lead or please contact your higher ups and have them get involved so yeah I mean there there's a lot more to get
into this case and uh let's do that uh tomorrow thanks to everybody for joining us in the very cold winry garage today I
still got my coat on C I'm freezing my fakra off I hope everybody out there stays warm and enjoy the rest of your
day until tomorrow be good be kind and don't [Music] [Applause] litter Angie's List is now Angie and we've
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True East Murders /// Part 1 /// 165

Part 1 of 2

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July 13th, 1994- just after 2a.m. The Bellevue Washington Police Department were called to a crime scene. Two teenagers, Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay returned to the Rafay family home. The house is located in a quiet upper middle class area of Bellevue. When they arrive, they stumbled onto a horrific scene. Atif's parents and sister had been brutally attacked. The young men called for help. Sebastian called 911 asking for police and an ambulance. First responders arrived on scene very quickly. Atif's older sister died at the hospital just a few hours after the attack. She was unable to tell the Detectives who had attacked her. This week in the Garage we discuss the triple homicide of the Rafay family and the investigation that followed.

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Brief Summary

The episode examines the Rafay family murders, police investigation, and suspects, highlighting missed leads and the 911 call's significance.

Key points

Suspicion on Atif and Sebastian. Police begin to suspect Atif and Sebastian in the case, as evidence points to a staged break-in.
The 911 Call. Sebastian's 911 call raises questions about his state of mind and the situation's urgency.
The Killer's Behavior. The killer's actions, including showering after the murders, suggest a personal connection to the family.
Suspicious Behavior After the Crime. The suspects' actions raise questions about their innocence, especially their calm demeanor post-crime.
Questioning the Suspects. Sebastian and Atif cooperate fully with police, but their actions are scrutinized by the public.
The Funeral Discovery. Atif learns from the news that his family's funeral occurred without him, adding to his trauma.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It looks like a staged burglary.

Discussion about the crime scene and police suspicions.

25:16WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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