True East Murders /// Part 2 /// 166 | Forensic Files

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GameChanger [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime 18-year-olds Sebastian Burns and his
friend Atif RAF they were staying at rti's parents' home this is back in July of 1994 Atif had been off at college and
Sebastian was living up in Canada they're visiting with A's family in Belleview Washington where his sister
lives as well they've been there for a few days by this point they go out for a night on the town they go out to a light
dinner followed by a movie and then some drinks afterwards they come back to A's
parents home and they find that all three members of A's family had been brutally murdered they call 911 they run
outside waiting for the police to arrive and shortly afterwards we start to see some things that may or may not
point to Sebastian and Atif as the guilty party right or at least the number one suspects correct well they
are definitely I think we're seeing a lot of actions by the Belleview Police Department that would show them that
they at least believed that Sebastian and Atif had committed these murders right and where we left off yesterday
the two had returned to Sebastian's parents' home in Canada where they would remain there right and at first Atif and
Sebastian are very Cooperative with the police and law enforcement but now under
the advice of a attorney uh their lawyer they say hey don't cooperate anymore yeah and but we do have Sebastian's
family and the friends of both the boys they're kind of rallying around both both of them believing them to be
totally innocent right and so now that the they've stopped cooperating with the Bellevue Police Department the detective
there remember this is detective Thompson who is leading the investigation he decided to keep digging
into the boy's past and he found what he thought was a bit of a disturbing clue from their past yes he discovered that
he discovered that Sebastian was in drama club yes that's disturbing he was acting I'm an actor actor uh yeah he
found that the disturbing clue was that Sebastian was in a high school play called rope uh about two kids who commit
the perfect murder yeah the detectives believed that the fictional murder story inspired the real life crime and even
more chilling the weapon used used in the story was the same as what was used to kill the rafet family a baseball bat
right have you ever seen this play no I have not I've not seen it so what's uh kind of interesting about it is they
have um this murder victim right and they put this murder victim in a box and so you see this at the beginning of the
play and then there's this party and they're inviting all the guests in and as they're inv inviting the guests in
they know that there's a certain number of guest mhm right but what nobody at the party knows is the final guest that
they're waiting on is it in the box and and the victim is then revealed yeah so it there's actually a very like dark
comedy aspect to this because based off of what people are saying okay that makes sense when when you throw in
comedy I'm thinking why are they showing why are they acting out a murder plot as
a high school play but but but when you say comedy I okay I'm with you now yeah so there's there's all these scenes in
the play where the audience kind of laughs because they know what's in the box they know what's in the box yeah so
it's very but you know so one yes this is odd that he's in this play about this thing and it's odd that
the weapon used in that case was a bat that is odd that's a pretty weird coincidence but it's also dark comedy
play and it's like I don't know to me this just seems like grabbing at straws it's a stretch it is a leap my
friend I I mean I I get it it doesn't um it certainly doesn't rule them out we can say that no but it doesn't rule them
in but yeah you're not going to get a guilty conviction off of that just makes no sense that would be like some
detective could now go into your past and my past and they could basically accuse of accuse us of any crime in
America because of our past well right uh we know that the murderer was a cannibal and we do know that the second
episode of True Crime gay Ridge was on Jeffrey dmer so they must have killed these people no it doesn't work that way
yeah yeah it's a it's a stretch it's a leap at best um as the investigation continued to tth and Sebastian they are
living in Vancouver they are spending some of the money that Atif inherited from his parents' estate right they
bought a convertible um they rented an apartment go ahead so the police start thinking
that you know ati's motive and Sebastian's motive would be the fact that there'd be an insurance policy on
A's family and he was going to receive hundreds of thousands of dollars cuz like we said his family was definitely
upper class and like I said they were renting an apartment but also living at the apartment with with the T and
Sebastian is their old high school pal this is Jimmy MOSI uh now they are living they are living well uh but they
are hiding from the media up in Canada because the media they were in constant pursuit of Sebastian and especially Atif
uh because of their story yeah so even though that their family and friends believe that they were innocent because
the the police went to the media and said hey these guys fled America to not get charged with these crimes now in
Canada most people find them to be guilty yeah and I I think I read one newspaper article or maybe it was a
magazine article that referred to Sebastian and Atif as the most popular murder suspects in Vancouver right or
and some some people would argue all of Canada yeah yeah so uh but speaking of stories uh Atif and Sebastian were
concocting their own story um this was one that they started working on uh their very own screenplay
about two best friends accused of murdering a family and they called the screenplay the great despisers right and
in the movie or in the script anyways um they're innocent okay so that's the screenplay
so it's not about these guys that uh that actually committed the murder got away with it and they're they're the
great despisers right so it's basically a lot about what they were going through
and like I said there was this whole community that thought these guys were the number one um you know guys that
murdered people and got away with it and now they're in Canada and and most of these guys couldn't get a job or do
anything so at least they were trying to do something with their time mhm well this will take us to January of 1995 so
roughly 6 months after the murders uh the Belleview investigators they met with the RCMP the Royal Canadian Mounted
Police Ju Just to clue some people and if you're curious the the RCMP is both a federal and National Police Force of
Canada so it's basically like the CIA and the FBI all rolled into one yeah I I guess you could say that I would I would
consider it to be more like the FBI uh of of the great United States sorry America still got my cat on
uh the Belleview detectives met with the rcmp's this is their serious crimes unit
to discuss the case of the RAF triple homicide right uh Belleview investigators were requesting biological
samples they wanted hair blood and saliva samples from Sebastian Burns and Atif rafay and they wanted the RCMP to
help get them those samples well and one of the reasons why was they found a a single hair strand on A's father on on
the bed in the bed and which he was murdered from so they wanted to test that something to compare to to either
uh maybe make that arrest they were seeking or eliminate them as suspects right uh the RCMP uh the officers agreed
to to do this to con to obtain these biological samples for them um and then they offered up what they refer to as
the Mr Big strategy to obtain a confession right so explain this because we don't actually have the Mr big uh
strategy in America well and that's what confused me when I when okay so I'll tell you my knowledge of this case uh as
it were a month ago right um I had I had heard of this case I had probably seen it I don't know on on Dateline or 48
hours or one of those shows right many many years ago we're talking probably 10 years ago I would guess and so I
remembered hearing of the story and it's a very interesting story the the the thing is though this Mr Big strategy
that they use that that we're going to talk about I thought this was like a one-time deal and then once we got we
started looking at this case in um throw it under the microscope two weeks ago and diving into this thing found out
that this is something they've used multiple time I mean time and time again to the to the point where it's just like
a common it's a common thing uh that Canada does and it's it's going to sound strange so here's the the general idea
of the Mr Big operation is this you you have some law enforcement that will pose
as Mobsters basically and what they're going to do is they're going to try to employ a suspect and they're going to
give this person jobs they're going to have them commit crimes and get paid for the for their actions and through the
course of building what they're going to do is try to build a relation ship you're going to build a employee
employer relationship and through the course of building that relationship because they're both criminals well you
my employee you can confide in me things that you've done in your past in your dark past right things that you're not
proud of things that you've gotten away with so that I know that you're a legit criminal like I am and therefore I'm
going to eventually get this information on tape uh whether it be audio or Visual
and I'm going to be able to use that against you for your previous crimes right and so that's a form of
entrapment and we don't use that in the States this is not admissible in courts so this is how it's going to go down in
this particular incident on April 10th 1995 the RCMP investigators they intercepted a phone message confirming a
salon appointment with Sebastian Burns and we should probably point out that at this point the RCMP have already tapped
their phones from my understanding and that's how they they acquired this phone message right so they were going to use
this information to make their move when Sebastian left the salon someone approached him the person a man asked
Sebastian for a ride somewhere The Stranger then took Sebastian to a bar and bought him a drink you know for his
trouble for driving him right he claimed that his car broke down he's from out of
town he's staying in this hotel can I get a ride give me a ride to the hotel they probably have a Lobby Bar I'll buy
you a nice drink for the for the gesture right uh Sebastian told this stranger that he and his buddies they were
working on a screenplay and Sebastian said that he didn't have a job and he needed financing to get this screenplay
to to the big screen uh The Stranger said he knew someone who could help Sebastian now of course ultimately the
goal here like we said is to get Sebastian to meet with the next guy up the chain you know this is going to be
the the mobster or the boss guy right so but initially they kind of played this guy off as not that he's going to get
you jobs but this guy possibly might just invest into your film and so when he meets you know this next guy which is
not higher up or lower I think it's kind of a s side step but it's more like well
yeah I can't really Finance this but I'm going to give you some jobs yeah and I think that the way that they described
this person to Sebastian is that he was a connected businessman that we're going
to introduce you to but who he actually met was Sergeant Haslett of the RCMP working undercover posing as a
mobster and their first meeting that he had that Sergeant Haslett had with Sebastian was in a strip club yeah so
which look again this is not uncommon you know as far as you know a lot of artists know this or musicians know this
guys that are quote unquote businessmen that want to help out artist or whatever
uh sometimes they just want to be around it you know I've worked with a lot of you know executive producers or guys
that ran small Rec record companies that they they were just fans of music but they were but as equally fans of Music
they wanted to be at the Afterparty after the show right you know they wanted to be like Play Rockstar without
actually being one so you you know trust me there's been a million trips I've taken to Nashville or somewhere to
audition for a record company and where does the manager take you out afterwards
a strip club you know whether or not you want to go that's where they take you avoid the ones that have a buffet now
I'll tell you well the other thing the chicken the other thing though Captain is so it's
he's supposed to be a mobster right and um right it's very very Sopranos I think
to take him to a strip club for for the initial meeting yeah it's very Hollywood
it kind of sells the part a little bit in it in a very cheesy way in my opinion anyway so this this quote unquote Crime
Boss he tells Sebastian that um he has cash to invest in his screenplay but Sebastian would have to earn it he's got
to earn his trust right so the crime boss said that he had some jobs for Sebastian he also had jobs for Atif and
Jimmy MOSI as well right if they wanted them yeah so Sebastian's first job would
be driving a stolen vehicle from point A to point B MH and Sebastian agrees to this he does the job and he gets paid
$200 for that job the next job was was a bit better well or more lucrative go ahead because Sebastian you know and his
idess that's what he is I mean he's you know when you see interviews with him he
comes off so cocky sometimes and I I don't think he knows that he's doing it I don't think he knows it's as bad as it
is but you know he was kind of upset I did something illegal and I got paid 200 bucks like I'm taking a risk I need
there needs to be a bigger reward right right he he feels like it's a bit grimy that that he has to do s take such a big
risk for such little reward right so then what they do is the next one is they're going to launder money they're
taking uh money from One bank to another bank and uh Jimmy mioshi right is going
to be with him on this one yeah so and the idea is pretty simple instructions here I think they have Sebastian going
into One Bank Jimmy going into the next one so forth and so on at the end of the
day they're doing a pretty easy job laundering this money just visiting Banks making bank stops and they're paid
two $2,000 cash for one day's worth of work that is not bad money Cas money you know but don't launder money don't do
that I'm not suggesting that any listener launders money so through the early part of this relationship between
Sebastian and this Mr Big I think he did he go by the name Al or something like that Al I'm the one who wants to be with
you oh I I get what you're okay okay so anyway uh during the course of this Sebastian did not he didn't admit to any
guilt in the triple homicide right uh but at some point he does confide in the Mobsters that if police did find
something that could potentially tie him to the crimes that he might want them to
destroy that evidence yeah kind of what happened was they're talking about hey you guys are the most famous people in
Canada for you know quote unquote getting a you know away with murder mhm and they were just like yeah well they
don't have any evidence and then the guy you know when they say that you know Sebastian was saying oh yeah well if
they found evidence we'd want you to get rid of that that was implied by the Mr Big op operation MH they're the ones
that were saying hey yeah but you know like if they did find something would you want us to get rid of we have that
ability we have that ability we know some people well they're going to up the stakes here um and what they do is they
present a memo to to Sebastian and this thing is it's not real but it looks very
real it's on Belleview police letterhead detailing the evidence linking Sebastian
to the murders and the Mobsters offer to destroy this evidence the the evidence that's listed in this memo well and
again they're also not saying that they found it that the Belleview Police Department found this evidence they're
saying that this is a part of the evidence that they're claiming that they found cuz they're going to frame you
you see what I'm saying mhm so a lot of people think it's this clear-cut thing where Mr Big said hey they got this
evidence you're busted no cuz Sebastian was like they don't have evidence cuz we
didn't do the crime you see what I'm saying right and so then they were saying well it doesn't matter if you did
the crime or not this is what they're going to use this is what they're going to say they have right they're setting
you up MH so let's be clear about that mhm um so there offering to destroy this this evidence they're offering to make
this problem go away for for Sebastian sorry but in order to do so Mr Big he wants Sebastian to tell them exactly
what happened in the rafay house the night of the murders so now this takes us to July 18th
1995 just about one year after the murder Sebastian meets with Haslett he meets with Mr Big the quote unquote
Undercover mob dude right at the Ocean Point Resort at some hotel and they have hidden cameras
rolling here set up to film this whole thing and Sebastian walks into the hotel room he takes off his shoes he gets
comfortable on the couch or love seat he's he's a cocky so and he starts talking and I'm not sure if it's if it's
both videos uh but on on one at least one of them he's having it looks like he's drinking a here while he's talking
with this Mr Big well I think they filmed him for a few hours yeah and he he starts confessing to the murders and
we will not get we'll get into what was said in just a minute but um and we'll go through some of the questions and the
answers as well but the key thing here is after he's done confessing to Mr Big the next day he returns the next day
Sebastian comes back to the mobster this time he's bringing his buddy Atif with him to the Crime Boss to tell his side
of the story right which ends up being recorded as well their buddy Jimmy Moshi takes uh ends up talking with the Crime
Boss as well and this seals it this seals the deal Sebastian Atif and MOSI they end up being arrested for things
that they said to Mr Big on tape when arrested immediately Sebastian is going to say that he was lying right and that
undercover officers uh had intimidated him into making a false [Music] confession this show is sponsored by
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2023 all right bloody hell cheers me mate all right Captain let's get into this confession and we got a lot of
stuff to get to I want to kind of give a quick little um a short version of how they confess to the murders what they
actually did according to their confession that was videotaped in front of this Mr Big character right um so
what what Sebastian is saying is that we know that they went out to dinner they go to a movie and then they go out to
another club afterward and we have these people that can confirm having seen them
at the restaurant having waited on them at the restaurant having taken their drink order at the movie after I'm sorry
at the club after the movie mhm but basically what what Sebastian's going to say is that the time that they were
supposed to be in the movie theater watching the movie is when they returned to the RAF home and
killed ati's parents and sister right and he says that he he was the one that used the Bat that he attacked A's mother
first and then he went and killed the father and then he killed um well attacked A's sister to the point where
she was left for dead right and he claims that Atif was basically in another room the whole time yeah he's
he's kind of setting up and making the Breakin thing look like it actually happened he's he would be the one I'm
guessing tipping over the boxes and opening drawers mhm they cleaned themselves up Sebastian took a shower
and then they make sure that they get back to that location where they are then seen again after the movie so
they're whereabouts are accounted for they have Alibis for what they were doing that night making them look like
they it would have been impossible for them to have killed the rafay family that's their
confession let's go let's go through it let's go through this a little bit more because we obvious this is very obvious
that it makes them look guilty but what we have now we have a lot of people screaming that no there are portions of
that confession that that actually point to their innocence okay and because we have Sebastian saying all this stuff is
a lie yeah we confess to Mr Big and to his crew but all this stuff was a lie well right and just to give her you know
so they're going to question and have Sebastian confess but then they're going to have Atif confess as well and if you
take those two stories there are a couple things that don't line up between Atif story and Sebastian's story and
then when you take their buddy Jimmy comes in um his story he doesn't really cooperate much at all he doesn't really
say much at all he basically you almost could say he doesn't confess I mean he's
he doesn't confess to any wrong wrongdoing himself and I think at the most that he confesses for as far as
Atif and Sebastian are concerned I think he kind of points to one right and and says you know who did it well that guy
right there right and it's again important to know that once they're arrested Sebastian Atif and Jimmy all
will state hey we lied we're we're innocent so the first thing that is pointed out by by all the people stating
that these young men are innocent and this confession is not real is Sebastian's clothing and what he says in
his confession regarding his clothing now this is all taken from the rcmp's transcription of the actual uh
confession okay so regarding the clothing Sebastian's first explanation to Al I was right Mr big is going by Al
uh is that he disposed of his clothes he wore when he murdered the rafay family uh they point out that this is false uh
police confirmed that Sebastian wore the same clothes both before and after the murders were committed uh during the
transcription during the confession he says uh I'll ask bloody clothes blood on your clothes why not why didn't you have
any blood on your clothes Burns States because they were gone he had disposed of these clothes where where did you get
rid of him in like a dumpster downtown right so we know that part of his story is a lie but the other thing too is at
some point he also states that he committed the crimes naked yes so again maybe he's lying that he got rid of them
maybe he's not maybe he took the clothes off killed him in the underwear there was two sets of underwear that were
found in a washing machine mhm uh in A's house supposedly belonging to Atif and fion there was no um physical evidence
on those clothings they weren't washed mhm so uh to me that was placed there by somebody yeah and then when he tells he
being Sebastian when he tells his story to Al changing his story that he committed the murders without any
clothes on that's when he says you know that's what the shower was for he took Burn states that he took a shower to
clean off and his exact words are took a shower to clean off you know blood and that kind of stuff um yeah right yeah
and and then the thing about Atif when they talk about the clothing with a teeth he's saying oh yeah well some of
the stuff we threw in dumpsters but some of the stuff we threw out the window now
we should talk about the blood threw out the window but threw out the window of a
moving car right and what we should really talk about is the evidence that was in A's father's room uh based off of
the the blood splatter or spatter spatter um evidence there was possibly two definitely two individuals but most
likely three individuals in that room which again we have three suspects so that wouldn't rule them out but again
when Sebastian is telling his confession he's saying well Atif is not even in the
room at the time so certain things just don't line up but we also have Sebastian
stating that Jimmy MOSI did not participate in in the murders right so according to Sebastian's confession
there's only two people committing those crimes right and like I said there's evidence there's evidence to suggest
that there could be three people in the room I want to be clear about that because here's one thing that I have not
definitive right here's one thing that here's one big problem I have with with this case in particular and we see this
with other cases when you get a whole mob of people claiming that somebody's innocent they start skewing things just
as much as we've seen police skew things and media skew things they skew it in a
way that's going to be presented to you that that they totally got this wrong and here's why and there there are
websites there are newspaper articles there are um there's plenty of stuff out there on this case that have presented
that it's factual that three people had to have been in that room right yeah and
and we should be clear it's evidence suggests the possibility of three people being in the room definitely two
possibly three well and also we we talked about the hair that was found on the bed that did not match any of these
individuals and it didn't match any of the victims it didn't match any of the suspects so but you could argue one
could make an argument that uh that's either the actual killer or this is some piece of DNA evidence that was that
randomly got there well right because they didn't there were new to the area so you know there was there's going to
be DNA of whoever's been in that house you know and whoever lived in the house before them well and I think um I heard
one one expert pointed out the best when it when to me anyway regarding that hair
and he stated that you know could this been a hair that A's father uh somehow it got you know he sat down in his car
seat and this hair was on the car seat got transferred to his pants and then got transferred to the bed right that's
a possibility could this hair have been a hair that was on the movie theater the
movie theater seat that Sebastian was sitting in transferred to his pants and then somehow transferred to the bed
either during the course of the attack or during the course of finding the bodies well and I think it's back to the
original point that you're trying to make though if we have eyewitnesses claiming they saw Sebastian and a teth
in this certain outfit and then after the movies you see them in the same outfits M that you would think that this
would be part of their master plan and that Sebastian would remember this so when he was telling Mr Big hey this is
how it went down he would have said oh and I came up with this clever thing where I will take off my clothes I'll
kill them in the nude I'll take a shower and I'll put these clothes back on that
would be pretty simple to remember he obviously didn't remember that or it didn't happen and that and that's where
the stories start not making a lot of sense yeah and I and I wanted to be clear and point out how random that hair
could have been how possibly random that hair could have been according to that expert's opinion um so that doesn't
necessarily rule them out either correct it doesn't rule them out but it also could point to an unknown unknown
suspect right the next thing we need to talk about in regards to the confession is the baseball bat the weapon that was
believed to have been used to kill the rafay family mhm and the concern with this is Al Mr Big wants to know what
happened with the bat right uh and where did you get the bat well in their confession Sebastian and Atif have a
hard time explaining where they got the bat right I think at one point Sebastian
says uh I may have been the one that purchased the bat yeah and uh I believe Atif says that the bat was just lying
around right and I think the Disposable uh how they dispos the bat was also a little
fishy yes because this is where they're talking about those dumpsters where they
state that the they won't find the bat uh because we put it in one of those dumpsters dumpsters that were downtown
to which Mr big is going to explain to them well you know what day did you commit these murders he says well was a
Tuesday so we're dumping these items on Tuesday night in these dumpsters and Mr Big says well you just hope in that
situation that they they didn't empty those dumpsters that Tuesday morning because then they wouldn't come back
until the following Tuesday and that evidence could sit there and could be found through the course of the the the
week right um same thing with the the VCR as well what did you do with the VCR We buried it in a dumpster and what do
we mean by buried it's like they they got in the dumpster amongst the trash and rubbish inside and they buried these
items in the trash right and then and then you come back and you make a 911 call and the police come and but you
don't look dis shoveled and you're so fresh and so clean clean mhm Al is worried about Mr big is worried about
fingerprints and this is when sebas says there will be no fingerprints because he
wore gloves Mr Big continues to Express concern that later the bat could be located and that Sebastian's Prince
would be on that bat right or that they'd be able to trace how he bought the bat to this point Sebastian tells Mr
Big that the bat was shrink wrapped in plastic wrap during the murders which this is scientifically incorrect this
this could not have happened because there were small pieces of the bat that were lodged in the wall at the scene of
the murder and there was no right there would be r that would be have been found with that and that was
not the case before we move on from this item of discussion while we're talking about gloves we should point out that
later a fingerprint expert testified that the murderer did not wear gloves that that this person this expert
would have found glove marks right at the scene so just another part of his confession that doesn't make a sense one
thing that will be pointed out time and time again is that the stories change okay whether it be that you're speaking
with Sebastian one-on-one during this confession tape or whether you be it that you're speaking with the teth that
that Sebastian's story will change as he goes along and Atif story will change as
he goes along I agree with this because there is some different information that
each of them are putting out from time to time there's one thing that I have a big
problem with though when people want to point out that the stories change right is if anybody has watched this
videotaped confession and if for those of you who have not just to to explain it and
describe it and you know better for you it's not like tuning into the garage and
the captain and Nick are going through a story we're going through a murder and how it happened from from the very
beginning all the way through the end right it's not like that at all that's not this confession this confession is
we have Sebastian sitting on a couch and he's being asked questions he's being asked a question sometimes he's giving
one or two Word answers and other times he might give you a sentence but he at no point is giving expansive answers
right he's at no point giving a whole a complete story rarely does he even get through one point completely and Mr Big
who is the one that is the expert in drawing out these confessions confessions that he he knows is going to
be videotaped and later shown to investigators and then potentially to a jury once this thing goes to
trial he's jumping all over the place with his questions in my opinion he's like hey what what happened to the bat
and it gets like a two word answer and he's like okay so why no blood on your clothes and gets a a short answer then
he's like okay what about fingerprints on the bat yeah and it's what what I hear to me what I'm hearing in this
confession especially with Sebastian is not so much a story that is changing completely I almost feel like on most of
the points not all I want to be clear not all the points but on most of the points I feel like what I'm getting is a
little bit of the truth and then later I might be getting a little more of the truth on that exact point yeah possibly
and it's a weird thing too because you have a cocky individual with Sebastian which is you know thinks he's you know
holier than thou maybe one of the smartest people in the world and then you have these cops that also think that
they're brilliant as well trying to Corner him and uh you know is the whole confession is just is really hard to
watch because the acting of the police officers are so or law enforcement is so awful they they try to come off as you
know these mobster member guys and it just comes off so poorly I mean everything is [ __ ] this and [ __ ] that
you know like it's it's just so it it it's like this it's basically like they tell them at Parts uh of the
investigation that I killed people right but instead of saying well you know I've
killed people too they're like I killed that mother [ __ ] and I stabbed in his [ __ ] face and I shot him right
in his face and I butt [ __ ] him with his [ __ ] gun I mean it's just so over the toop that one how can Sebastian if
he was so smart not see through this [ __ ] well and it's weird because I know that these officers have I
shouldn't say that I know I wasn't there with them but I'm assuming that they've
received extensive training in this area it's so bad but really and I know I reference Sopranos earlier I I love that
show I miss that show but I really think you could have you could have sat a few
people down and had them watch a season of Sopranos give them a leather jacket and a and a handgun and send them into
this hotel room and they could have pulled off the same they could have pulled off the same um act let's say mhm
well and let's let's be devil's advocate for a second so why would a te why would
Sebastian confess to a crime that they didn't commit what's their motivation well the motivation is they
want to get financed for this screenplay they want to they want to put their art
on the big screen and they need dollars to do so and they really believe and I think Sebastian's even quoted as saying
you know we believe that if we were in fact found innocent for this crime well then our our movies going to make
millions and millions of dollars right and so 20 to 30 million is what he said is that what he said and you know it's
funny that you you say that uh he Sebastian may think that he's not only the smartest guy in the room but
possibly one of the smartest people on the planet I think he even says that at some point during the confession right
when he's asked if he's how smart he thinks he is he says well one of the most smartest
people most intelligent people on the plan yeah I said that because I did the research um keep up
uh anyways that's I don't know if that's their motivation cuz I I really think their
motivation from the interviews that I was listening to with a a that he's been doing lately um I think he did one with
uh The Fifth Estate their motivation more was hey I got involved with these bad dudes and now they for me to do more
stuff for them they need to know that uh we're we're reliable people that they we
believe them and so as much as they're going okay so now you need to tell me about these
murders they were afraid that if they didn't or this is what they claim Sebastian and Atif were afraid that if
we don't say we committed these murders that these guys will think that we're just some Chumps that are going to rat
them out and they have given us example after example that we've killed people and a lot of times when he's saying that
they killed people he's saying oh well this guy crossed me so I killed him or this guy tried to turn me in so I killed
him so it's it's really um one is nefarious and one it's irresponsible for when Mr Big when you hear them talk and
they say did you ever threaten these guys mhm they say no we we never threatened them no but during the
confession you just keep brining up that you killed people that hold on you you know what I mean and that you've killed
all these people so it's not wrong to have these young adults that aren't not that they're not so Street Smart
to believe that and to believe that you're capable of murder and if I did you know I'm just going to tell you this
to get you off my back if does that make sense well they they made every attempt
to sell that point and they being Mr Big and the people working for him or supposedly working for him and I'll give
you some more specific detail regarding this intimidation Factor because I I wholeheartedly agree with the
intimidation Factor here I think this is I think this is wrong and you and I had
a conversation last week and one thing we were talking about was you know when we talked about the yogurt shop murders
from Austin uh Texas mhm they got confessions from a couple of those from two of those four guys and one of the
confessions was obtained after an officer took an unloaded handgun and put it to the back of the head of of one of
the people he was trying to get confess mhm this to me while not that dramatic this to me is borderline the same thing
right but they got guns on the table right and that's what I'm going I'm going to get into that this is
borderline the same thing we we have um Sebastian a direct quote from Sebastian is I believe that if if I crossed them
they would have killed me and so we have Mr Big we also have this character named
Gary Gary can be seen yeah he can be seen on and off camera during the confessions and at one point Gary tells
Sebastian that he was a murderer and that Mr Big had hired him to contract uh some kills Gary also says you want to
know what I did my time for Gary Tell Sebastian that he toasted a guy oh Gary yeah and he he says you want to know how
solid Mr big is well when it came time for Gary to go to court and there was a person that could testify against him
putting him in prison he States well that person ain't around anymore so you know that business gets taken care of
Gary further explained that to Sebastian that Mr Big had paid $80,000 to kill this Witness right then at one point you
have a third undercover officer pretending to be an employee of Gary and Mr Big he enters the room to where and
then he throws down two handguns on the table in front of SE Sebastian and indicated that a person had just been
shot with one of those guns so when we when we reference the intimidation Factor here it's real this I mean this
is some yeah it's and it's more real for like said not StreetWise young adults it's more real for any two people
sitting in that room and but here's where I have a problem with right but what I'm saying is if you had a couple
guys that are a little more StreetWise like within a few conversations you'd go something's up with this you know so I
see what you're saying that that this is a ruse something's not right here right
I smell I smell bacon even as smart as Sebastian thinks he is he he he certainly was outsmarted in this
situation he's a real dumbass the problem that I have with Sebastian saying I agree I agree with the
intimidation to some extent what what I have a problem with is when I see you on camera and his I
mean his mannerisms at no point at no point on camera does he appear to be nervous does
he appear to be intimidated at times s he's smiling when he tells the order of of who he killed and and how he killed
the individuals yeah but again you can't read too much into that because I mean the absurdity of what he's saying could
be hilarious to him so it's really hard to like go you look if he didn't do these crimes and look everybody says
well how can you even say this stuff you knew them but you're you're in a hotel room you just did Money laundry you just
you what the hell are you doing anyways but now you're sitting there explaining that you killed these people and the
Ridiculousness of it like just because you're smiling or even laughing I mean Atif did the same
thing you know it's hard to comment on that stuff because we don't know what's going on inside their head I don't know
what's going on in his head but I'm going to read into it I'm going to comment on it because I one thing that
we've both agreed upon is that one thing that Sebastian's very proud of self proud of is how intelligent he thinks he
is and when he's when he's answering these questions he's lighting up in a way where he's like I'm to me this is
what it looks like the guy that thinks oh here I am the guy that pulled off these three murders and now I'm the one
that's getting to school this hardened criminal I'm getting to school this career Criminal on how I pulled this off
and why I'm so smart oh I did it without any clothes on so I wouldn't get any blood on my clothes why didn't you have
blood on you took a shower why you know what when did the deed go down during the movie you know
and you see him light up when he says these things that's sorry but that's my opinion that's what I see on on the tape
and the sad part too is that I see that from Atif as well when he's when he's asked to give his story he's speaking
specifically about his family whether he was involved or not he's smiling at times he seems to be enjoying confessing
to to this again you have to take into account that these are edited versions of the confession tapes I mean multiple
times before the confession starts Sebastian still denies that they had anything to do with it multiple times I
think it was something ridiculous like 10 15 times where he said they had nothing to do with it m when Atif is
brought in it's to hey these guys uh basically said like they would kill me and kill everybody else if we like we
got they need to know we're on the up and up again it's an edited confession what a lot a lot of stuff you don't see
is how much he's fishing for answers you see it a little bit on the confession tapes he being Sebastian or Atif Atif
but both of them because there's times that they're both in the room together and when they have a question and
they're like well the bat was there or no I bought the bat there's like discrepancies within the conversation
mhm like that they don't know oh I think we threw those out I don't know what we
did with those oh I hope these guys don't figure us out because if they figure us out we're dead so I think
there's some acting that had to go along whether they're telling the truth or they're lying I think uh they were in a
in a situation where they tried had to act a little tougher than what they were now to in all fairness you know I there
was some mannerisms that I saw that could have pointed towards innoc I should point that out if I'm going to
point out the other right so um you referenced Atif there are several times where you know Atif is sitting in a
chair and then to his left is Sebastian who's on the love seat right and there are several times where Atif is giving
an answer and he's kind of slow giving the answer and I see his eyes they're not wandering they're looking at
Sebastian and it's almost like help me out here is he looking yeah is he looking for help with his answer or is
he looking for approval whether he got it the information correct or not and like you pointed out by the time that
Atif is confessing to this he's had a whole night of talking with Sebastian the night before before he's brought
back the next you know before he's brought there the next morning to tell his side of the story so reasons why
they would give this confession but yet still be innocent that that persons point out often are that they're
factually inaccurate statements that they gave that they do not contain realistic detail that the confessions
are based entirely on media reports and various prompts and suggestions from Mr Big
himself um but one thing that's pointed out is that the confessions contain absolutely no holdback evidence evidence
or information that only the killer would have known I would I want to address that last that last little uh
box there MH before we check that one off my concerns with that is is there any hold back evidence you know I they
couldn't they couldn't give a confession that would contain holdback evidence if
there is none and and we know that in cases that police like to do that that you would ideally have hold back
evidence that only the killer or Killers would know but we also know from having
looked at plenty of these that sometimes there just nothing got held back everything was out there everything was
reported everything was in the media all right on July 31st 1995 this is after having the confessions Sebastian Burns
and Atif rafay they are charged with three counts of aggravated first-degree murder and Jimmy MOSI is charged with
conspiracy to commit murder right they are incarcerated in Vancouver Canada between the years of 19 95 and 2001 they
remained incarcerated in maximum security pre-trial facilities in British Colombia that's six years now why would
they stay in prison for that long well there's several reasons but one being that they're probably facing the death
penalty once they return to the United States there's usually some negotiation that goes down between the countries
before they're willing to send somebody back if they are in fact going to face the death penalty right and some
interesting things here is so they argue and basically the state of Washington says hey we're not going to seek the
death penalty MH so therefore send them to us so right and basically you know Canada um outlawed the death penalty a
while ago so okay that makes some sense so now we're sending our citizens down there but the weirdest thing about it
was the way they got these confessions were based on Canada law it's not legal here in the United States right as you
pointed out the Mr Big strategy so so when they go into trial pretty quickly they know that these confession tapes
are going to be you know allowed in the courtroom after having been incarcerated
in the fall of 1995 Jimmy Moshi he obtains immunity for his charge of conspiracy to commit
murder in return for statements that would incriminate Sebastian Burns and Atif rafet now the trial begins in
Seattle Washington this is in November of 2003 on the stand MOSI he recounts a discussion with Sebastian and with Atif
regarding how they would commit the murders he states that he remembered hearing something about gassing the
house and remembered a discussion about using a baseball bat when asked why a baseball bat he says I guess that it was
it's a quick and painless way of killing someone a part of moshi's statements and
testimony that I think is the most damning and I'm sure the jurors felt the same way is when he's asked about a
conversation of of their plan a big part of their plan was that Sebastian and Atif wanted to be in the rafay home and
stay there for a few days before committing the murder because this would explain away any fingerprint evidence
any hair evidence any fibers any DNA that may have been found of theirs at the crime scene yeah that's kind of
fishy but um I think the point that people forget about Jimmy is that when he was arrested when he didn't have
pressure on him when the death penalty wasn't hanging over his head his friends were innocent they were lying about
these confessions his to me his demeanor during his tape confession was that he did not want to say this that he didn't
want to go along with this idea and that he didn't believe that his friends were
guilty of this crime that's my gut feeling so now that he's being pressured that hey if you don't cooperate you're
going to be facing the death penalty which we all knew was a lie anyways again another tactic of you know strong
arming somebody into saying something that I don't know if it's true or not so just because that there was that thing
hanging over his head the death Pony hanging over his head I don't know if I believe anything this guy says on May 26
2004 Sebastian and Atif are convicted of three counts of first deegree murder yeah and they both give kind of
different statements um their final statement Sebastian's final statements like over two hours long yeah it's a
fair it's at least two hours long and uh his is more that this was unfair and this was unjust and and um blah blah
blah blah and Atif is more like you know you know saddened by all this yeah his is I loved my family I loved my father I
loved my mother I wouldn't have killed them um I don't know why anybody else would have killed them um so his his
statements sound remorseful um and Sebastian's don't sound remorseful but if you believe what he's saying they
don't need to sound remorseful because he's not guilty of anything yeah everything Sebastian says makes him
sound like a dick face you know so do you think that they got it right do you think that the jurors got it right well
how about you start this one off H this is a if if I start to tail spin out of control reel me back in here
okay so I don't know I look Captain I don't know I really don't know and that's full
disclosure complete y I don't know because here's what chicken butt my gut tells me m that they they probably did
it that's what my gut tells me the problem is I can't find evidence to support that gut feeling right um here's
the thing I I do want to go through a couple of a couple of things that that may or may not point to their guilt yeah
go go with what you know leads you to that cuz I do I do like chopping down some of these things that people were
like they're innocent they're innocent you know and some of like we said about uh how things are presented and I'm
going to go back to the there had to be three killers situation in the room with
Mr rafay when he was killed and the reason why they state that there would have been three kill three people in
that room is there's one person swinging the murder weapon mhm there is a pillow
that because of blood spatter evidence we know was moved it would have been on the bed during the early part of the
murder and it would have been moved to the floor later while the murder is still
being committed right so there's no blood for a while then there's some blood evidence why there would be a third
person is because in a location where a person would not have been able to move that pillow there is a there's a shadow
almost an outline of a person right and there's blood spatter around that shadow
around that silouette so that would put one creating the silouette one moving the pillow one swinging the murder
weapon I I don't believe that to be the situation at all I absolutely believe all this points to me is that there were
two people in that room right and reason being is okay think about when you're top CPR the first thing that they tell
you is that if you find somebody unresponsive and they are in a bed well you need to get them and place them on a
hard surface before you start performing this CPR why because as soon as you do that once you start pushing down on the
victim they're going to the bed is going to create them so they start bouncing or
pushing back up it's just natural it's just going to happen so you put them on a hard surface think about if somebody
were swinging a bat on the on a victim laying in a bed it's going to to create the same motion a quake effect that
would move the pillow from the bed to the floor so I don't know that there had to have been a third person in the room
for that to take place the other thing that I question is we know the order of who was attacked we know that the mother
was attacked first and then the father and then the sister again I don't know I don't have a full understanding of her
autism but here's one thing that I I wonder and I hope that they checked this with the blood spatter
evidence but is there a chance that the second person in the room didn't have to
be a killer is there a chance that she for some reason came into that room and witnessed a portion of that murder
before she was attacked there's a there's a likelihood that you have this evidence out there there may have only
be one guilty person in this situation so what you're saying is that you think there's a possibility that this crime
was committed by one individual and there was only one individual at the crime scene possibly I I wouldn't rule
that out I hope that they checked Atif sister for certain evidence DNA evidence of her father if that makes
any sense yeah I think the other thing here though too is if there was two individuals right we
have a lot of blood in that shower that to me could could have been one person but it
also makes sense that if there was multiple people there and they decided to clean up before they left then that
would explain the amount of blood yeah that was washed off yeah I'm just simply stating that for people saying that
three people had to have Commit committed this crime and that therefore rules out Atif and Sebastian I'm saying
I don't believe that one bit I I need more proof that that more than two people were there was it committed by
one person or two people I don't know but that that's the most I've gotten to as far as as number of perpetrators go
the other questionable thing that I have here so those items might Point towards
more towards their guilt you know if if there were only two people there MH um but one thing that might Point towards
their innocence and this is one thing that I H that I can't get over is the amount of overkill on the father mhm
okay so they point out they being the Poli that this is this points to somebody knowing the victim that that
that a lot of times in crimes we will see see Overkill because there's a deep hatred from the person killing the
person to the the victim there's a deep hatred well not necessarily in this case
the the the the perpetrator May in fact have known them it doesn't have to be somebody close on their Inner Circle if
Sebastian was in fact the one that was swinging the murder weapon what evidence do we have that he hated this man so
much that he hit him 40 or 50 times right what why would he go to Overkill it seems to me like they if if in fact
they killed the rafay family they simply did it for money that they simply did it
to uh live together and have some money to finance their their goal their dream right I I guess Overkill is not
necessary that's just to remind you that that's what uh Atif kept on saying in his confession
was uh yeah we did this for money I guess right he like to end everything with right and that's what I mean there
there would be no reason for Overkill now let me throw this at you we had those three tips all three of those tips
involve some form of of what you could say is an easy leap to religious hatred that somebody could hate another person
for religious reasons why would there be Overkill on one victim the father and not overkill on the other two victims if
you had somebody that was just busting into a place for a Thrill Kill you would see overkill on all three of these
individuals right they're trying to make a statement if you were looking and believe that monetary it it this was
just a money that money was the motive you wouldn't see overkill on any of these victims whoever killed Mr raay
hated that man very badly right which those which to me I need I need you would have to point out reasons
why that would mean why that would implicate Sebastian right or and I don't see those I just don't see those and I
don't have a problem with the jury I don't have a problem with their final conclusion with with the guilty verdict
on both of these guys and the reason being is I think the way that this case was presented to them and what was
presented to them in court it I think it would be hard for me not to have given a
guilty verdict as well what I do have a problem with is this whole confession to
begin with I don't think it should have ever been allowed in the courtroom and I
think without this confession you you have no way to convict these guys there's no way
there's no way you could get me to go Yep they're guilty right he just couldn't do it I think I think this
confession is there's there's parts of it that do not ring true to me there are parts of it that I think can are
probably bogus it's one of those weird cases captain my gut tells me one thing the
evidence shows me another and without this this is not legal in the United States this the way they obtain this
confession is not legal in the United States how can they use it in our court of law I I I don't understand yeah and
what what the government argued for years about this case and what they rightfully decided was
this crime took place in Washington it will be tried in Washington because that's where the crime took place and so
you should have to go off of that set of rules MH so if somebody goes over to the Middle East
and they're in a country where it's okay to rip toes off or cut hands off to get
somebody to confess and uh they get somebody to confess to a murder that took place in New York City and they
transfer the person from the Middle East over to New York City are we going to go
with that confession right are we going to allow that in and I think um in this case these guys should be whether you
think they're guilty or innocent or whether they're guilty or innocent these guys should be set free for the fact
that you made up the rules as you went along and that's not something that we should be doing as a system a justice
system it's supposed to be uh truth and Justice and you didn't try to find either the other thing that's really
disturbing about this case is that there was a jury member that was highly against this confession and took notes
of over 250 maybe 300 pages of notes this jury member was uh before the verdict was taken place they were
excused from the trial and I feel like this is um this was a tactic yeah but I think from the
beginning I mean it was like we're going to get this Mr Big op operation in we are going to get them to confess then
we're going to get them down to you and then we're going to make sure that this goes through and um cuz they they
allowed in so much stuff uh that I think they just shouldn't have and I don't think they got a fair trial and it's sad
that these guys are in jail again whether they did it or not that's not the point it's a justice system all
right Captain what are your other thoughts all right so I think um my gut feeling is that they are innocent that
they they they didn't do this I don't think it was enough of a motivation you have a pretty wealthy family that seems
to be helping you out doing things you're in a nice College what's this yeah I know it's a few hundred, and you
think that's like a really big deal but how much is that going to change your life mhm I don't know if it's enough of
a motivation to kill your whole family for a few hundred, now one of the points of
evidence to me other than the fact that we have so many eyewitnesses that claim that they saw them right mhm one of the
major points for me that I I can't really get over and so I can't say that they're guilty is the sister now I think
a lot of people see that oh well we came home and we noticed the mom's dead and we noticed my dad's dead and I could
hear my sister and I think a lot of people go well he needed her to die that's why he didn't help her right so
that would point to him being guilty but you call the police you know she's not dead there's a chance that the
police are going to get there in time and by the way when the police can't find the house what are you doing hey
we're over here mhm if you need her to die so you can get this money [Music] right and then you don't have her to you
know you're not going to be responsible for her then you don't need the cops to get there right away and you can let it
the time elapse even more mhm you know what I mean so yeah you show up after the movies and after you get done at
this club mom's dead dad's dead sister's Not Dead Yet now you got an option you can finish her off or you can just wait
an hour or so and then call police or when police are coming there you don't flag them down mhm so that's the one uh
piece of evidence that that I can't say that they're guilty because of that piece of evidence all right so these two
pieces of evidence to me that I can't say that they're 100% innocent are this during Sebastian's confession he says
these murders took place during when they were supposed to be in the movie theater and then the forensic evidence
matched that so out of all the things that he might have got wrong or might have not
remembered he got the time of death of when they had to be at the house right he got the time frame right a small
window of time he got that exactly right right and what is super odd here is that
he has done this before and high school he wrecked his car and when he wrecked his car he decided that he was going to
to try to create an alibi and he did so by saying he moved the pieces that of the wreckage moved his car moved him to
a movie theater right then got tickets or whatever and so to kind of claim like well I wasn't involved in the crash now
this is a big lie this is fraud this is a big deal this is this is Criminal stuff and I know that his father and so
many other people have said but these were just little kids at the time yeah but sometimes little kids create murders
and that makes them awful pieces of [ __ ] right so this this is a bad thing this
is lying this is fraud um what however you look at insurance companies who cares it's the fact is it's a big deal
and he's tried to do this Alibi before I think that's very fishy so not only does
he get the time correctly he also tried to use this as an alibi earlier in his life and because of those two things uh
this is going to become a red light case for me I mean it already has where I I have thought oh well see but this makes
them look innocent but all you see this makes them look guilty I've changed my opinion four or five times in the past
two weeks yeah but we both agree that the way they got these confessions were was wrong wrong just wrong and they
shouldn't have been used at trial and if they weren't used that trial I don't think they would have been able to get a
conviction all right Captain how about a little recommended reading for this week
all right mes we're recommending beautifully cruel so lovely so Twisted by award-winning journalist M William
Phelps this is heart pounding story storytelling at its best Phelps gives us a chilling account of the last person
anyone would assume to be a cold-hearted killer a beautiful devoted mother and housewife in a small town this housewife
seemed to have it all but beneath the happy facade was a woman who used lies manipulation sex and even murder to to
serve her own selfish needs check out beautifully cruel so lovely so Twisted by m William Phelps yeah you can check
out all of our recommended reading since the beginning since we started doing the
recommended reading just go to our website truecrime garage.com and click on the recommended page and while you're
at the website go to the blog page because I want to hear if you think that these guys are guilty if they're
innocent so join in the conversation all right now we want everybody out there yeah all right we want to thank
everybody for Join one more time we'll try three four more times we want to thank everybody for joining us in the
garage we give you a cheers whether it be a long distance or one nearby close how about a little Shiner holiday cheers
right to warm the heart this cold this cold cold week that we've had my feet are freezing right now all right until
next time friends be good be kind and don't litter [Music] [Applause] [Music] you can live out your Master Chef dreams
when you find a professional on Angie to tackle your dream kitchen remodel connect with skilled
professionals to get all your home projects done well visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie that

True East Murders /// Part 2 /// 166

Part 2 of 2

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July 13th, 1994- just after 2a.m. The Bellevue Washington Police Department were called to a crime scene. Two teenagers, Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay returned to the Rafay family home. The house is located in a quiet upper middle class area of Bellevue. When they arrive, they stumbled onto a horrific scene. Atif's parents and sister had been brutally attacked. The young men called for help. Sebastian called 911 asking for police and an ambulance. First responders arrived on scene very quickly. Atif's older sister died at the hospital just a few hours after the attack. She was unable to tell the Detectives who had attacked her. This week in the Garage we discuss the triple homicide of the Rafay family and the investigation that followed.

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Brief Summary

Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay confess to a triple homicide under duress, raising questions about their guilt and the validity of their confessions.

Key points

Rosetta Stone Holiday Deal. Get 50% off a lifetime membership for unlimited access to 25 languages.
True Crime Garage Introduction. Join hosts Nick and the Captain as they dive into a chilling true crime story.
The Great Despisers Screenplay. Sebastian and Atif write a screenplay about two friends accused of murder.
Confession Under Pressure. Sebastian confesses to the murders while being recorded by an undercover mobster.
Innocence Claimed. After their arrest, Sebastian, Atif, and Jimmy all claim they lied and are innocent.
The Mystery of the Bat. Sebastian struggles to explain the origin of the murder weapon, the baseball bat.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Sebastian was in drama club? That's disturbing!

Discussion about Sebastian's past.

5:39WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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