True East Murders /// Part 2 /// 166 | Forensic Files

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crime. 18-year-olds Sebastian Burns and his friend Atif Rafay, they were staying at Rafay's
parents' home. This is back in July of 1994. Atif had been off at college, and Sebastian was living up in Canada.
They're visiting with Atif's family in Bellevue, Washington, where his sister lives as well. They've
been there for a few days by this point. They go out for a night on the town. They go out to a light dinner followed
by a movie and then some drinks afterwards. They come back to Atif's parents' home, and they find that all
three members of Atif's family had been brutally murdered. They call 911. They run outside waiting for the police to
arrive. And shortly afterwards, we start to see some things that may or may not point to
Sebastian and Atif as the guilty party. Right, or at least the number one suspects.
Correct. Well, they are definitely, I think, we're seeing a lot of actions by the Bellevue Police Department that
would show them that they at least believe that Sebastian and Atif had committed these murders.
Right. And where we left off yesterday, the two had returned to Sebastian's parents home
in Canada where they would remain there. Right. And at first Atif and Sebastian are very cooperative with the police and
law enforcement, but now under the advice of a attorney, uh their lawyer, they say, "Hey, don't
cooperate anymore." Yeah, and but we do have Sebastian's family and the friends of both the boys,
they're kind of rallying around both of both of them believing them to be totally innocent.
Right. And so now that the they've stopped cooperating with the Bellevue Police Department, the detective there,
remember this is Detective Thompson who is leading the investigation, he decided
to keep digging into the boys' past. And he found what he thought was a bit of a
disturbing clue from their past. Yes. He discovered that that Sebastian was in drama club.
Yes. And that's disturbing. He was acting. He was I'm an actor. Actor. Uh yeah, he found that the the
disturbing clue was that Sebastian was in a high school play called Rope, uh about two kids who commit the perfect
murder. Yeah. The detectives believed that the fictional murder story inspired the
real-life crime. And even more chilling, the weapon used in the story was the same as what was used to kill the Rafay
family, a baseball bat. Right. Have you ever seen this play? No, I have not. I've not seen it.
So what's uh kind of interesting about it is they have um this murder victim, right? And they put
this murder victim in a box. Okay. And so you see this at the beginning of the play, and then there's this party
and they're inviting all the guests in. And as they're inviting the guests in, they know that there's a certain number
of guests. Mhm. Right? But what nobody at the party knows is the final guest that they're
waiting on is in the box. And in the victim is then revealed? Yeah, so it there's actually a very like
dark comedy aspect to this because based off of what people are saying makes sense. So when when you throw in
comedy, I'm thinking why are they showing why are they acting out a murder plot as a
a high school play. But But when you say comedy, I Okay, I'm with you now. Yeah, so there's there's all these
scenes in the play where the audience kind of laughs because they what's in the box.
what's in the box. Yeah, so it's very but you know, so one yes, this is odd that he's in this
play about this thing and it's odd that the weapon used in that case was a bat. That is odd. That's a pretty
weird coincidence. But it's also dark comedy play and it's like I don't know. Uh
to me this just seems like grabbing at straws. It's a stretch. It is a leap, my friend. I I mean
I I get it. It doesn't um It certainly doesn't rule them out. We can say that. rule them in.
But yeah, you're not going to get a guilty conviction off of That just makes no sense.
would be like some detective could now go into your past and my past and they could basically accuse of accuse us of
any crime in America because of our past. Well, Right. um We know that the murderer was a cannibal
and we do know that the second episode of True Crime Gay Ridge was on Jeffrey Dahmer. So, they must have killed these
people. No, it doesn't work that way. Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a stretch. It's a leap at best. Um as the investigation
continued Atif and Sebastian, they are living in Vancouver. They are spending some of the money that Atif inherited
from his parents' estate. Right, which They bought a convertible. Um they rented an apartment. Go ahead.
So, the police start thinking that, you know, Atif's motive and Sebastian's motive would be the fact that there'd be
insurance policy on Atif's family. And he was going to receive hundreds of thousands of dollars cuz like we said,
his family was definitely upper class. And like I said, they were renting an apartment, but also living at the
apartment with Atif and Sebastian is their old high school pal. This is Jimmy Miyoshi. Now they are living They are
living well, but they are hiding from the media up in Canada because the media they were in
constant pursuit of Sebastian and especially Atif because of their story. Yeah, so even though that their family
and friends believe that they were innocent because the the police went to the media and said, "Hey, these guys
fled America to not get charged with these crimes." Now in Canada, most people find them to be guilty.
Yeah, and I I think I read one newspaper article or maybe it was a magazine article that referred to Sebastian and
Atif as the most popular murder suspects in Vancouver. Right, or and some some people would
argue all of Canada. Yeah. Yeah. So, but speaking of stories, Atif and Sebastian were concocting their
own story. This was one that they started working on their very own screenplay about two best
friends accused of murdering a family and they called the screenplay The Great Despisers.
Right, and in the movie or in the script anyways, they're innocent. Okay. So, that's the screenplay. So, it's not
about these guys that uh that actually committed the murder, got away with it, and they're they're the
great despisers. Right, so it's basically a lot about what they were going through. And like I
said, there was this whole community that thought these guys were the number one
um you know guys that murdered people and got away with it and now they're in Canada.
And and most of these guys couldn't get a job or do anything. So at least they were trying to do something with their
time. Mhm. Well, this will take us to January of 1995. So roughly 6 months after the
murders. The Bellevue investigators they met with the RCMP the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
Just to clue some people in if you're curious the the RCMP is both a federal and national police force of Canada.
So it's basically like the CIA and the FBI all rolled into one. Yeah, I I guess you could say that. I
would I would consider it to be more like the FBI of of the great United States.
Sorry. America. Still got my coat on. The Bellevue detectives met with the RCMP's this is their serious crimes unit
to discuss the case of the Rafay a triple homicide. Right. Bellevue investigators were requesting
biological samples. They wanted hair, blood and saliva samples from Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay and they wanted the
RCMP to help get them those samples. Well, and one of the reasons why was they found a a single hair strand
on Atif's father on on the bed. bed. Which he was murdered from. So they wanted to test that.
Something to compare it to to either maybe make that arrest they were seeking or eliminate them as suspects.
Right. The RCMP the officers agreed to to do this to to obtain these biological samples for
them. And then they offered up what they referred to as the Mr. Big strategy to obtain a confession.
Right. So explain this because we don't actually have the Mr. Big strategy in Well, and that's what confused me
when I when Okay, so I'll tell you my knowledge of this case as it were a month ago, right? I had I
had heard of this case. I had probably seen it, I don't know on on Dateline or 48 Hours or one of those
shows many, many years ago. What we're talking probably 10 years ago, I would guess.
And so I remembered hearing of this story and it's a very interesting story. The the the thing is though, this Mr.
Big strategy that they used that that we're going to talk about, I thought this was like a one-time deal. And then
once we got we started looking at this case and throw it under the microscope 2 weeks
ago and diving into this thing, found out that this is something they've used multiple time I mean time and time again
to the to the point where it's just like a common it's a common thing that Canada
does and it is it's going to sound strange. So, here's the the general idea of the Mr. Big operation is this.
You you have some law enforcement that will pose as mobsters, basically. And what they're going to do is they're
going to try to employ a suspect and they're going to give this person jobs. They're going to have them
commit crimes and get paid for the for their actions. And through the course of building what they're going to do is try
to build a relationship. You're going to build a employee-employer relationship.
And through the course of building that relationship, because they're both criminals, well, you, my employee, you
can confide in me things that you've done in your past and your dark past, Right.
things that you're not proud of, things that you've gotten away with so that I know that you're a legit criminal like I
am. And therefore, I'm going to eventually get this information on tape, uh whether
it be audio or visual, and I'm going to be able to use that against you for your
previous crimes. Right. And so, that's a form of entrapment. And we don't use that in the states.
This is not admissible in courts. So, this is how it's going to go down in this particular incident. On April 10th,
1995, the RCMP investigators, they intercepted a phone message confirming a salon appointment with Sebastian Burns.
And we should probably point out that at this point, the RCMP have already tapped
their phones from my understanding. And that's how they they acquired this phone
message, right? So, they're going to use this information to make their move. When
Sebastian left the salon, someone approached him. The person, a man, asked Sebastian for a ride somewhere. The
stranger then took Sebastian to a bar and bought him a drink, you know, for his trouble, for driving him.
Right. He claimed that his car broke down. He's from out of town. He's staying in this hotel.
Can I get a ride? Give me a ride to the hotel. They probably have a lobby bar. I'll buy you
a nice drink for the for the gesture. Right. Uh Sebastian told the stranger that he
and his buddies, they were working on a screenplay. And Sebastian said that he didn't have a job
and he needed financing to get this screenplay to to the big screen. Uh the stranger said he knew someone who
could help Sebastian. Now, of course, ultimately, the goal here, like we said, is to get Sebastian to meet with the
next guy up the chain. You know, this is going to be the the mobster or the boss guy.
Right. So, but initially, they kind of played this guy off as not that he's going to get you jobs, but this guy
possibly might just invest into your film. And so, when he meets, you know, this
next guy, which is not higher up or lower, I think it's kind of a side step, but it's more like, well, yeah, I can't
really finance this, but I'm going to give you some jobs. Yeah, and I think that the way that they
described this person to Sebastian is that he was a connected businessman that we're going to introduce you to. But
who he actually met was Sergeant Haslett of the RCMP working undercover, posing as a mobster.
And their first meeting that he had, that Sergeant Haslett had with Sebastian, was in a strip club.
Yeah. So Which is look, again, this is not uncommon, you know, as far as you know, a lot of artists know this or
musicians know this, guys that are quote-unquote businessmen that want to help out artists or whatever.
Uh sometimes they just want to be around it, you know, I've worked with a lot of
you know, executive producers or guys that ran small rec- record companies that they they were just fans of music.
Mhm. But they were but as equally fans of music, they wanted to be at the after-party after the show.
Right. You know, they wanted to be like play rock star without actually being one. So
you you know, trust me, there's been a million trips I've taken to Nashville or somewhere to audition for a record
company. And where does the manager take you out afterwards? A strip club, you know, whether or not you want to go.
That's where they take you. Avoid the ones that have a buffet. Now, I'll tell you
I well, the other thing though the chicken. The other thing though, Captain, is so it's he's supposed to be a mobster,
right? And um Right. It's very very Sopranos, I think, to take him to a strip club for for the
initial meeting. very Hollywood. It kind of sells the part a little bit in it in a very cheesy way, in my
opinion. Anyway, so this this quote-unquote crime boss, he tells Sebastian that um he has cash to invest
in his screenplay, but Sebastian would have to earn it. He's got to earn his trust.
Right. So, the crime boss said that he had some jobs for Sebastian. He also had jobs for
a thief and Jimmy Mayoshi as well. Right, if they wanted them, yeah. So, Sebastian's first job
would be driving a stolen vehicle from point A to point B. Mhm. And Sebastian agrees to this. He does
the job and he gets paid $200 for that job. The next job was was a bit better. Well,
Or more lucrative. Go ahead. Because Sebastian, you know, and his uppityness, that's what he is. I mean,
he's you know, when you see interviews with him, he comes off so cocky sometimes.
And I I don't think he knows that he's doing it. I don't think he knows it's as bad as it is. But, you know, he was kind
of upset, you know, and I did something illegal and I got paid 200 bucks. Like, I'm
taking a risk. I need there needs to be a bigger reward. Right? Right, he he feels like it's a bit grimy
that that he has to do take such a big risk for such little reward. Right, so then what they do is the next
one is they're going to launder money. They're taking money from one bank to another bank. And uh Jimmy Mayoshi,
right, is going to be with him Yeah. Yeah, so and the idea is pretty simple instructions here. I think
they have Sebastian going into one bank, Jimmy going into the next one, so forth
and so on. At the end of the day, they're doing a pretty easy job laundering this money, just visiting
banks, making bank stops, and they're paid two $2,000 cash for one day's worth of work.
That is not bad money. Cash money. You know, I but don't launder money. Don't do that. I'm not suggesting that
any listener launders money. So, through the early part of this relationship between Sebastian and this
Mr. Big, I think he Did he go by the name Al or something like that, A L? I'm the one who wants to be with you.
Oh, I I I get what you're saying. Okay. Okay, so anyway, uh during the course of this, Sebastian
did not He didn't admit to any guilt in the triple homicide. Right. Uh but at some point, he does confide in
the mobsters that if police did find something that could potentially tie him to the crimes, that he might want them
to destroy that evidence. Yeah, kind of what happened was they're talking about, "Hey, you guys are the
most famous people in Canada for, you know, {quote} {unquote} getting a, you know, away with murder."
Mhm. And they're just like, "Yeah, well, they don't have any evidence." And then the
guy, you know, when they say that, you know, Sebastian was saying, "Oh yeah, well, if
they found evidence, we'd want you to get rid of that." That was implied by the Mr. Big op
operation. Mhm. They're the ones that were saying, "Hey, yeah, but you know, like if they did
find something, would you want us to get rid of that? We have that ability." that ability. We know some people.
Well, they're going to up the stakes here. Um and what they do is they present a
memo to to Sebastian. And this thing is it's not real, but it looks very real. It's on Bellevue police letterhead
detailing the evidence linking Sebastian to the murders. And the mobsters offer to destroy this
evidence, the the evidence that's listed in this memo. Well, and again, they're also not saying
that they found it, that the Bellevue Police Department found this evidence. They're saying that this is a part of
the evidence that they're claiming that they found cuz they're going to frame you.
Mhm. You see what I'm You know what I'm Mhm. So, a lot of people think it's this
clear-cut thing where Mr. Big said, "Hey, they got this evidence. You're busted." No, cuz Sebastian was like,
"They don't have evidence cuz we didn't do the crime." Do you know what I'm saying?
Right. And so, then they were saying, "Well, it doesn't matter if you did the crime or
not. This is what they're going to use. This is what they're going to say they have.
they're setting you up. Mhm. So, let's be clear about that. Mhm. Um so, they're offering to destroy this
this evidence. Mhm. They're offering to make this problem go away for for Seba- Sebastian, sorry.
But, in order to do so, Mr. Big, he wants Sebastian to tell them exactly what happened in the Raffay
house the night of the murders. So, now this takes us to July 18th, 1995, just about 1 year after the
murder. Sebastian meets with Haslett. He meets with Mr. Big, the quote-unquote undercover mob dude.
Right. At the Ocean Point Resort, at some hotel. And they have hidden cameras rolling
here, set up to film this whole thing. And Sebastian walks into the hotel room. He takes off his shoes. He gets
comfortable on the couch or love seat. And he's a he's a cocky SOB. And he starts talking. And I'm not sure
if it's if it's both videos, uh but on on one at least one of them, he's having it looks like he's drinking a beer while
he's talking with this Mr. Big. Well, I think they filmed him for a few hours. Yeah. And he he starts confessing to the
murders. And we will not get we'll get into what was said in just a minute, but um
and we'll go through some of the questions and the answers as well. But, the key thing here is after he's done
confessing to Mr. Big, the next day he returns. The next day Sebastian comes back to the mobster. This time he's
bringing his buddy Atef with him to the crime boss to tell his side of the story.
Right. Which ends up being recorded as well. Their buddy Jimmy Myoshi takes uh ends up talking with the crime boss
as well. And this seals it. This seals the deal. Sebastian, Atef, and Myoshi, they end up
being arrested for things that they said to Mr. Big on tape. When arrested, immediately Sebastian is going to say
that he was lying. Right. And that undercover officers um had intimidated him into making a false
confession. All right. Bloody hell. Cheers me, matey. All right, Captain. Let's get into this
confession, and we got a lot of stuff to get to. I want to kind of give a quick little um short version of how they
confessed to the murders, what they actually did according to their confession that was videotaped in front
of this Mr. Big character, right? Um so, what what Sebastian is saying is that we
know that they went out to dinner. They go to a movie, and then they go out to another club afterward. And we have
these people that can confirm having seen them at the restaurant, having waited on them at the restaurant, having
taken their drink order at the movie after I'm sorry, at the club after the movie.
Mhm. But basically what what Sebastian's going to say is that the time that they
were supposed to be in the movie theater watching the movie is when they returned
to the Refaay home and killed Atef's parents and sister. Right. And he says that he he was the one that
used the bat, that he attacked the teeth's mother first and then he went and killed the father and then he killed
well attacked the teeth's sister to the point where she was left for dead. Right, and he claims that Atif was
basically in another room the whole time. Yeah, he's he's kind of setting up and
making the break-in thing look like it actually happened. He he would be the one I'm guessing tipping over the boxes
and opening drawers. Mhm. They clean themselves up, Sebastian took a shower and then they make sure that
they get back to that location where they are then seen again after the movie. So their whereabouts are
accounted for. They have alibis for what they were doing that night making them look like they would have been
impossible for them to have killed the Refay family. Mhm. That's their confession.
Let's go let's go through let's go through this a little bit more because we obviously this is very
obvious that it makes them look guilty, but what we have now we have a lot of people screaming that no, there are
portions of that confession that that actually point to their innocence. Okay. And because
we have Sebastian saying all this stuff is a lie. Yeah, we confessed to Mr. Big and to his crew, but all this stuff was
a lie. Well, right and just to give a you know, so they're going to question and have
Sebastian confess, but then they're going to have Atif confess as well. And if you take those two stories, there are
a couple things that don't line up between Atif's story and Sebastian's story. And then when you take their
buddy Jimmy comes in um his story he doesn't really cooperate much at all. He doesn't really say much
at all. He basically You almost could say he doesn't confess. I mean he he's he doesn't confess to any
wrong wrongdoing himself and I think at the most that he confesses for as far as
Atif and Sebastian are concerned, I think he kind of points to one. Right. And And says, you know, who did it? Well,
that guy right there. Right. And it's again important to know that once they're arrested, Sebastian,
Atif, and Jimmy all will state, "Hey, we lied. We're We're innocent." So, the first thing that is pointed out
by by all the people stating that these young men are innocent and this confession is not real is Sebastian's
clothing and what he says in his confession regarding his clothing. Now, this is all taken from the RCMP's
transcription of the actual uh confession. Okay. So, regarding the clothing, Sebastian's first explanation to Al, I
was right, Mr. Big is going by Al, uh is that he disposed of his clothes he wore
when he murdered the Rafay family. Uh they point out that this is false. Uh police confirmed that Sebastian wore the
same clothes both before and after the murders were committed. Uh during the transcription, during the confession, he
says, uh Al asked, "Bloody clothes. Blood on your clothes. Why not? Why didn't you have any blood on your
clothes?" Burns states, "Because they were gone. He had disposed of these clothes." "Where did you get rid of
them?" "In like a dumpster downtown." Right. So, we know that part of his story is a
lie. But the other thing too is at some point he also states that he committed the
crimes naked. Yes. So, again, maybe he's lying that he got rid of them. Maybe he's not. Maybe he
took the clothes off, killed them in the underwear. There was two sets of underwear that were found in
a washing machine Mhm. uh in Atif's house, supposedly belonging to Atif and Sebastian. There was no
um physical evidence on those clothings. They weren't washed. Mhm. So, uh to me that was placed there by
somebody. Yeah, and then when he tells, he being Sebastian, when he tells his story to Al
changing his story that he committed the murders without any clothes on, that's when he says, you know, that's what the
shower was for. He took Burns states that he took a shower to clean off and his exact words are, "Took a shower to
clean off, you know, blood and that kind of stuff. Um, yeah." Right. Yeah, and and then the thing about Atif
when they talk about the clothing with Atif, he's saying, "Oh, yeah, well, some of the stuff we threw in dumpsters, but
some of the stuff we threw out the window." Now, we should talk about the blood the window, but threw out the window of
a moving car. Right. And what we should really talk about is the evidence that was in Atif's
father's room. Uh, based off of the the blood splatter or spatter Spatter. Um, evidence, there's possibly two
definitely two individuals, but most likely three individuals in that room, which again, we have three suspects, so
that wouldn't rule them out, but again, when Sebastian is telling his confession, he's saying, "Well, Atif is
not even in the room at the time." So, certain things just don't line up. But we also have Sebastian stating that
Jimmy Myoshi did not participate in the murders. Right. So, according to Sebastian's confession,
there's only two people committing those crimes. Right, and like I said, there's evidence
There's evidence to suggest that there could be three people in the room. I want to be clear about that because
here's one thing that I have Right, here's one thing that I here's one big problem I have with
with this case in particular and we see this with other cases. When you get a whole mob of people claiming that
somebody's innocent, they start skewing things just as much as we've seen police skew things and media skew
things. They skew it in a way that's going to be presented to you that that they totally got this wrong and here is
why. And there there are websites, there are newspaper articles, there are um there's plenty of stuff out there on
this case that have presented that it's factual that three people had to have been in that room.
Right. Yeah. And and we should be clear, it's evidence suggests the possibility of
three people being in the room. Definitely two, possibly three. Well, and also we we talked about the
hair that was found on the bed. That did not match any of these individuals and it didn't match any of
the victims, it didn't match any of the suspects. So, but you could argue, one could make an
argument that uh that's either the actual killer or this is some piece of DNA evidence
that was that randomly got there. Well, right, because they didn't they were new to the area. So, you know, there was
there's going to be DNA of whoever's been in that house, you know, and whoever lived in the house before them.
Well, and I think um I heard one one expert pointed out the best when he when to me anyway regarding that hair.
And he stated that, you know, could this been a hair that Ateef's father uh somehow it got
you know, he sat down in his car seat and this hair was on the car seat, got transferred to his pants, and then got
transferred to the bed. Right. That's a possibility. Could this hair have been a hair that was on the movie
theater thea- movie theater seat that Sebastian was sitting in, transferred to his pants,
and then somehow transferred to the bed either during the course of the attack or during the course of finding the
bodies. Well, and I think it's back to the original point that you're trying to make though. If we have eyewitnesses
claiming they saw Sebastian and Ateef in this certain outfit, and then after the
movies you see them in the same outfits that you would think that this would be part of their master plan and that
Sebastian would remember this. So, when he was telling Mr. Big, "Hey, this is how it went down." he would have said,
"Oh, and I came up with this clever thing where I'll take off my clothes, I'll kill them in the nude, I'll take a
shower, and I'll put these clothes back on." That would be pretty simple to remember.
He obviously didn't remember that or it didn't happen, and that and that's where
the story start not making a lot of sense. Yeah, and I and I wanted to be clear and
point out how random that hair could have been, how possibly random that hair could have been according to that
expert's opinion. Um So, that doesn't necessarily rule them out, either. Correct. It doesn't rule them out, but
it also could point to an un unknown suspect. Right. The next thing we need to talk about in regards to the
confession is the baseball bat, the weapon that was believed to have been used to kill the Rafe family.
Mhm. And the concern with this is Al, Mr. Big, wants to know what happened with the bat.
Right. Uh and where did you get the bat? Well, in their confession Sebastian and Atif have a hard time
explaining where they got the bat. Right. I think at one point Sebastian says uh I may have been the one that
purchased the bat. Yeah. And uh I believe Atif says that the bat was just lying around.
Right. And then I think the disposal how they disposed the bat was also a little
fishy. Yes, because this is where they're talking about those dumpsters, where they state that the they won't find the
bat uh because we put it in one of those dumpsters, dumpsters that were downtown.
To which Mr. Big is going to explain to them, "Well, you know, what day did you commit these
murders? He says, well, it was a Tuesday. So, we're dumping these items on Tuesday night in these dumpsters. And
Mr. Big says, well, you just hope in that situation that they they didn't empty those dumpsters that Tuesday
morning because then they wouldn't come back until the following Tuesday and that evidence could sit there and could
be found through the course of the the the week. Right. Same thing with the the VCR as well.
What did you do with the VCR? We buried it in a dumpster. And what do we mean by
buried? It's like they they got in the dumpster amongst the trash and rubbish inside and they buried these items in
the trash. Right. And then and then you come back and you make a 911 call and the police come and you but
you don't look disheveled. so fresh and so clean clean. Al is worried about Mr. Big is worried
about fingerprints. And this is when Sebastian says there will be no fingerprints because he wore gloves. Mr.
Big continues to express concern that later the bat could be located and that Sebastian's prints would be on that bat.
Right. Or that they'd be able to trace how he bought the bat. To this point Sebastian tells Mr. Big
that the bat was shrink wrapped in plastic wrap during the murders. Which this is scientifically incorrect. This
this could not have happened because there were small pieces of the bat that were lodged
in the wall at the scene of the murders and there was no Surrounding. Right. There would be wrap that would be
have been found with that and that was not the case. Before we move on from this item of discussion, while we're
talking about gloves, we should point out that later a fingerprint expert testified
that the murderer did not wear gloves. That that this person this expert would have found glove marks
Right. Okay. at the scene. So, just another part of his confession that doesn't make a lot of sense.
One thing that will be pointed out time and time again is that the stories change, okay? Whether it be that you're
speaking with Sebastian one-on-one during this confession tape Mhm. or whether you be it that you're
speaking with the chief, that that Sebastian's story will change as he goes along. And the chief's story
will change as he goes along. I agree with this because there is some different information that each of them
are putting out from time to time. There's one thing that I have a big problem with though, when people want to
point out that the stories change. Right. Is if anybody has watched this videotaped
confession and if for those of you who have not, just to to explain it and describe it
in, you know, better for you, it's not like tuning into the garage and the captain and Nick are going through a
story. We're going through a murder and how it happened from from the very beginning all the way through the end.
Right. It's not like that at all. That's not this confession. This confession is we
have Sebastian sitting on a couch and he's being asked questions. Mhm. He's being asked a question. Sometimes
he's giving one or two word answers and other times he might give you a sentence, but he at no point is giving
expansive answers. Right. He's at no point giving a whole a complete story. Rarely does he even get through one
point completely. Mhm. And Mr. Big, who is the one that is the expert in drawing out these confessions,
confessions that he he knows is going to be videotaped and later shown to investigators and then potentially to a
jury once this thing goes to trial. He's jumping all over the place with his questions and in my opinion it's He's
like, "Hey, what what happened to the bat?" And he gets like a two-word answer and he's like, "Okay, so why no blood on
your clothes?" And gets a a short answer then he's like, "Okay, what about fingerprints on the bat?"
Yeah. And it's it what what I hear to me, what I'm hearing in this confession, so
especially with Sebastian, is not so much a story that is changing completely. I almost feel like on most
of the points, not all, I want to be clear, not all the points, but on most of the points, I feel like what I'm
getting is a little bit of the truth and then later I might be getting a little more of the
truth on that exact point. Yeah, possibly and it's a weird thing too because you have a cocky individual
with Sebastian which is, you know, thinks he's, you know, holier than thou, maybe one of the smartest people in the
world and then you have these cops that also think that they're brilliant as well trying to
corner him. And uh you know, is the whole confession is just is really hard to watch because the acting of the
police officers are so or law enforcement is so awful. They they try to come off as you know,
these mobster member guys and this comes off so poorly. I mean, everything is [ __ ] this and [ __ ] that, you know, like
it's it's just so it it's like this. It's basically like they tell them at parts
uh of the investigation that I killed people, right? But instead of saying, "Well, you know, I've killed people,
too." They're like, "I killed that [ __ ] and I stabbed him in the [ __ ] face and I shot him right
in his face and I butt [ __ ] him with his [ __ ] gun." I mean, it's just so over the top that one, how can
Sebastian, if he was so smart, not see through this [ __ ] Well, and it's weird because I know that
these officers have I shouldn't say that I know. I wasn't there with them, but I'm assuming that
they've received extensive training in this area. It's so bad. But really and I know I referenced
Sopranos earlier. I got I love that show. I miss that show. But I really think you could have you could have sat
a few people down and had them watch a season of Sopranos, give them a leather jacket and a
handgun and send them into this hotel room and they could have pulled off the same
they could have pulled off the same um Right. act, let's say. Mhm. Well, and let's let's be devil's
advocate for a second. So, why would Atif why would Sebastian confess to a crime that they didn't commit? What's
their motivation? Well, the motivation is they want to get financed for this screenplay. They want
to they want to put their art on the big screen and they need dollars to do so. And they really believe and I think
Sebastian's even quoted as saying, you know, we believe that if we were in fact found innocent for this crime, well,
then our our movie's going to make millions and millions of dollars. Right. And so
20 to 30 million is what he said. Is that what he said? And you know it's funny that you you say that
he Sebastian may think that he's not only the smartest guy in the room, but possibly one of the smartest people on
the planet. I think he even says that at some point during the confession. Right.
When he's asked if he's how smart he thinks he is, he says you know, well One of the most smartest people on the
people on the planet. Yeah. I said that because I did the research. Um keep up. Uh anyways, that's I don't know
if that's their motivation cuz I I really think their motivation from the interviews that I was listening
to with a T that he's been doing lately. Um I think he did one with the fifth estate. Their motivation more was, "Hey,
I got involved with these bad dudes and now they for me to do more stuff for them, they need to know that uh
we're we're reliable people that they we can believe them." And so as much as they're going okay, so now
you need to tell me about these murders. They were afraid that if they didn't or this is what they
claim. Sebastian and Latif were afraid that if we don't say we committed these murders, that
these guys will think that we're just some chumps that are going to rat them out. And they have given us example
after example that we've killed people. And a lot of times when he's saying that
they killed people, he's saying, "Oh, well, this guy crossed me, so I killed him." Or this guy tried to turn me in,
so I killed him. So it's it's really um one is nefarious and one is irresponsible for when Mr. Big when you
hear them talk and they say, "Did you ever threaten these guys?" Mhm. They say, "No, we we never threatened
them." No, but during the confession you just keep bringing up that you killed people that told on you. You know what I
mean? And that you've killed all these people. So it's not wrong to have these young adults that are not they're not so
street smart to believe that. And to believe that you're capable of murder. And if I did you know, I'm just going to
tell you this to to get you off my back. Does that make sense? Well, they they made every attempt to
sell that point and they being Mr. Big and the people working for him or supposedly working for him. And I'll
give you some more specific detail regarding this intimidation factor. Because I
I wholeheartedly agree with the intimidation factor here. I think this is I think this is wrong. And you and I had
a conversation last week and one thing we were talking about was, you know, when we talked about the Yogurt Shop
Murders from Austin, Texas. They got confessions from a couple of those from two of those four guys. And
one of the confessions was obtained after an officer took an unloaded handgun and put it to the back of the
head of of one of the people he was trying to get confessed. This to me, while not that dramatic,
this to me is borderline the same thing. Right, but they got guns on the table. Right, and that's what I'm going to I'm
going to get into. This is borderline the same thing. We we have Sebastian A direct quote from Sebastian
is "I believe that if I crossed them, they would have killed me." And So, we have Mr. Big. We also have this
character named Gary. Gary can be seen Yeah, he can be seen on and off camera during the confessions. And at one
point, Gary tells Sebastian that he was a murderer and that Mr. Big had hired him to contract
some kills. Right. Gary also says "You want to know what I did my time for?" Gary tells Sebastian that he
toasted a guy. Oh, Gary. Yeah. And he he says, "You want to know how solid Mr. Big is? Well, when it came
time for Gary to go to court and there was a person that could testify against him putting him in prison he states
"Well, that person ain't around anymore. So, you know that business gets taken care of." Gary further explained this to
Sebastian that Mr. Big had paid $80,000 to kill this witness. Right. Then at one point you have a third
undercover officer pretending to be an employee of Gary and Mr. Big. He enters the room
to and then he throws down two handguns on the table in front of Sebastian. And indicated that a person had just
been shot with one of those guns. So, when we when we reference the intimidation factor here, it's real.
This I mean this is some Yeah, and it's more real for like I said, not street wise young
adults. It's more real for any two people sitting in that room. And but here's where I have a problem with
Right, but what I'm saying is if you had a couple guys that are a little more street wise, like within a few
conversations you'd go something's up with this, you know? So I see what you're saying. That that this
is a ruse, something's not right here. Right, right. I smell I smell bacon. Even as smart as Sebastian thinks he is,
he he he certainly was outsmarted in this situation. He's a real dumbass. The problem that I have with Sebastian
saying I agree with I agree with the intimidation to some extent. What I what I have a problem with is
when I see you on camera and his I mean his mannerisms. At no point at no point on camera does
he appear to be nervous. Does he appear to be intimidated? At times he's smiling
when he tells the order of of who he killed and and how he killed the individuals.
Yeah, but again, you can't read too much into that because I mean the absurdity of what he's saying could be hilarious
to him. So, it's really hard to like go you know, look if he didn't do these crimes and look everybody says, well,
how can you even say this stuff? You knew them. But you're you're in a hotel room, you just
did money laundering, you just What the hell are you doing anyways? But now you're sitting there explaining
that you killed these people. And the ridiculousness of it, like just because you're smiling or even laughing. I mean,
Atif did the same thing. I you know, it's hard to comment on that stuff cuz we don't know what's going on
inside their head. know what's going on in his head, but I'm going to read into it. I'm going to
comment on it because I One thing that we've both agreed upon is that one thing that Sebastian's very proud of,
self-proud of, is how intelligent he thinks he is. And when he's when he's answering these
questions, he's lighting up in a way where he's like I'm To me, this is what it looks like.
The guy that thinks, "Oh, here I am. The guy that pulled off these three murders,
and now I'm the one that's getting to school this hardened criminal. I'm getting to school this
career criminal on how I pulled this off and why I'm so smart. Oh, I did it without any clothes on so I wouldn't get
any blood on my clothes. Why didn't you have blood on you? Took a shower." Why you know, what When did the deed go
down? During the movie. You know, and you see him light up when he says these things. That's Sorry, but that's my
opinion. That's what I see on on the tape. And the sad part two is that I see that from
Atif as well. When he's when he's asked to give his story, he's speaking specifically about his family, whether
he was involved or not, he's smiling at times. He seems to be enjoying confessing to
to this. Again, you have to take into account that these are edited versions of the
confession tapes. I mean, multiple times before the confession starts, Sebastian
still denies that they had anything to do with it. Multiple times. I think it was something ridiculous like
10-15 times where he said they had nothing to do with it. Mhm. When Atif is brought in, it's to hey,
these guys basically said like they would kill me and kill everybody else if we like we got it they need to know
we're on the up and up. Again, it's a edited confession. What a lot of a lot of stuff you don't see is
how much he's fishing for answers. You see it a little bit on the confession tapes.
He being Sebastian or Atif? Atif. But both of them because there's times that they're both in the room
together and when they have a question and they're like, well, the bat was there or no, I bought the bat. There's
like discrepancies within the conversation. Mhm. Like that they don't know. Oh, I think we threw those out. I don't
know what we did with those. Oh, I hope these guys don't figure us out because if they figure us out, we're dead. So, I
think there's some acting that had to go along. Whether they're telling the truth or they're
lying, I think uh they were in a in a situation where they tried had to act a little tougher than what they were.
Now, to in all fairness, you know, I there was some mannerisms that I saw that could have pointed towards innocence. I
should point that out if I'm going to point out the other, right? So, um you referenced Atif. There are several
times where, you know, Atif is sitting in a chair and then to his left is Sebastian who's on the love seat.
Right. And there are several times where Atif is giving an answer and he's kind of slow giving the answer and I see his
eyes they're not wandering, they're looking at Sebastian and it's almost like Help me out here.
Is he looking Yeah, is he looking for help with his answer or is he looking for approval whether he got it the
information correct or not? And like you pointed out, by the time that Atif is confessing to
this, he's had a whole night of talking with Sebastian the night before before he's brought back the next morn you
know, before he's brought there the next morning to tell his side of the story. So, reasons why they would give this
confession, but yet still be innocent that that persons point out often are that they're factually inaccurate
statements that they gave, that they do not contain realistic detail, that the confessions are based entirely
on media reports and various prompts and suggestions from Mr. Big himself. Mhm. Um but one thing that's pointed out is
that the confessions contain absolutely no holdback evidence. Evidence or information that only the killer would
have known. I would I want to address that last that last little uh box there before we check that one off.
My concerns with that is is there any holdback evidence? You know, I mean they couldn't
they couldn't give a confession that would contain holdback evidence if there is none. And and we know that in cases
that police like to do that that you would ideally have holdback evidence that only the killer or killers would
know. But we also know from having looked at plenty of these that sometimes there
just nothing got held back. Everything was out there. Everything was reported. Everything was in the media. All right,
on July 31st, 1995, this is after having the confessions, Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay, they are charged with three
counts of aggravated first-degree murder and Jimmy Myoshi is charged with conspiracy to commit murder.
Right. They are incarcerated in Vancouver, Canada. Between the years of 1995 and
2001, they remained incarcerated in maximum-security pre-trial facilities in British
Columbia. That's six years. Now, why would they stay in prison for that long? Well,
there's several reasons, but one being that they're probably facing the death penalty once they return to the United
States. There's usually some negotiation that goes down between the countries before they're willing to send somebody
back if they are in fact going to face the death penalty. Right. And some interesting things here
is so they argue and basically what the state of Washington says, "Hey, we're not going to seek the death penalty.
Mhm. So therefore, send them to us. So Right. and basically, you know, Canada um outlawed the death penalty a while
ago. So, okay, that makes some sense. So now we're sending our citizens down there.
But the weirdest thing about it was the way they got these confessions were based on Canada law.
It's not legal here in the United States. Right. As you pointed out, the Mr. Big
strategy. So So when they go into trial, pretty quickly they know that these confession
tapes are going to be you know, allowed in the courtroom. After having been incarcerated in the
fall of 1995, Jimmy Miyoshi, he obtains immunity for his charge of conspiracy to commit
murder in return for statements that would incriminate Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay.
Now, the trial begins in Seattle, Washington. This is in November of 2003. On the stand, Miyoshi, he recounts a
discussion with Sebastian and with Atif regarding how they would commit the murders.
He states that he remembered hearing something about gassing the house and remembered a discussion about using a
baseball bat. When asked why a baseball bat, he says, "I guess that it was it's a quick and painless way of killing
someone." A part of Miyoshi's statements and testimony that I think is the most damning
and I'm sure the jurors felt the same way is when he's asked about a conversation of of their plan. A big
part of their plan was that Sebastian and Atef wanted to be in the Rafay home and stay there for a few days before
committing the murder. Mhm. Because this would explain away any fingerprint evidence, any hair evidence,
any fibers, any DNA that may have been found of theirs at the crime scene. Yeah, that's kind of
fishy, but um I think the point that people forget about Jimmy is that when he was
arrested, when he didn't have pressure on him, when the death penalty wasn't hanging over his head,
his friends were innocent. They were lying about these confessions. His to me, his demeanor during his taped
confession was that he did not want to say this, that he didn't want to go along with
this idea, and that he didn't believe that his friends were guilty of this crime.
That's my gut feeling. So, now that he's being pressured that, "Hey, if you don't
cooperate, we're you're going to be facing the death penalty." Which we all knew was a lie anyways, again, another
tactic of you know, strong-arming somebody into saying something that I don't know if it's true or not. So, just
because that there was that thing hanging over his head, the death penalty hanging over his head, I don't know if I
believe anything this guy says. On May 26th, 2004, Sebastian and Atef are convicted of three counts of
first-degree murder. Yeah, they both give kind of different statements. Um their final statements, Sebastian's
final statement's like over 2 hours long. It's a fair It's at least 2 hours long.
And uh his is more that this was unfair and and was unjust. And um blah blah blah blah. And Atif's is more
like, you know, you know, saddened by all this. Yeah, his is I loved my family, I loved
my father, I loved my mother, I wouldn't have killed them. Um I don't know why anybody else would have killed them. Um
so his his statements sound remorseful. Um and Sebastian's don't sound remorseful,
but if you believe what he's saying, they don't need to sound remorseful because he's not guilty of anything.
Yeah, but everything Sebastian says makes him sound like a dick face, you know. So do you think that they got it right?
Do you think that the jurors got it right? I don't know. How about you start this one off?
Uh this is uh if if I start to tailspin out of control, reel me back in here. Okay.
So uh I don't know I Look, Captain, I don't know. I really don't know. And and and that's full
disclosure, uh complete honesty, I don't know because here's what. Chicken butt.
My gut tells me Mhm. that they they probably did it. That's what my gut tells me. The problem is I
can't find evidence to support that gut feeling. Right. Um here's the thing. I I do want to go
through a couple of a couple of things that that may or may not point to their guilt.
Yeah, go go with what you know, leads you to that. Cuz I I do I do like chopping down some
of these things that people are like, "They're innocent. They're innocent." You know, and some of it like we said
about uh how things are presented. And I'm going to go back to the there had to be three killers situation in the room
with Mr. Rafeay when he was killed. And the reason why they state that there would have been three kill three people
in that room is there's one person swinging the murder weapon. Mhm. There is a pillow
that because of blood spatter evidence we know was moved. It would have been on the bed during the early part of the
murder and it would have been moved to the floor later while the murder is still being
committed. Right. So, there's no blood for a while, then there's some blood evidence.
Why there would be a third person is because in a location where a person would not have been able to move that
pillow, there is a there's a shadow, almost an outline of a person. Right. The and because there's blood spatter
around that shadow, around that silhouette. So, that would put one creating the silhouette, one moving the
pillow, one swinging the murder weapon. I don't believe that to be the situation
at all. I absolutely believe all this points to me is that there were two people in that room.
Right. And reason being is Okay, think about when you're taught CPR. The first thing that they tell you
is that if you find somebody unresponsive and they are in a bed, well, you need to get them and place
them on a hard surface before you start performing the CPR. Why? Because as soon
as you do that, once you start pushing down on the victim, they're going to the bed is going to
create them so they start bouncing or pushing back up. It's just natural. It's just going to happen. So, you put them
on a hard surface. Think about if somebody were swinging a bat on the on a victim laying in a bed,
it's going to create the same motion, a quake effect that would move the pillow from the bed to the floor. So, I don't
know that there had to have been a third person in the room for that to have take
place. Mhm. The other thing that I question is we know the order of who was attacked. We
know that the mother was attacked first and then the father and then the sister.
Again, I don't know I don't have a full understanding of her autism, but here's one thing that I I wonder.
And I hope that they check this with the blood spatter evidence. But is there a chance that the second
person in the room didn't have to be a killer? Is there a chance that she for some reason came into that room and
witnessed a portion of that murder before she was attacked? There's a There's a likelihood that you have this
evidence out there. There may have only be one guilty person in the situation. So, what you're saying is that you think
there's a possibility that this crime was committed by one individual and there was only one individual at the
crime scene. Possibly. I I wouldn't rule that out. I hope that they checked uh the chief's sister for certain
evidence, DNA evidence of her father. If that makes any sense. Yeah, I think the other thing here
though too is uh if there was two individuals, right? We have a lot of blood in that shower.
Mhm. That to me could could have been one person, but it also makes sense that if
there was multiple people there and they decided to clean up before they left, then that would explain the amount of
blood Yeah. that was washed up. Yeah, I'm just simply stating that for people saying that three people had to
have commit committed this crime and that therefore rules out the chief and Sebastian. I'm saying I don't believe
that one bit. I I need more proof that that more than two people were there. Was it committed by one person or two
people? I don't know, but that that's the most I've gotten to as far as as number of perpetrators go. The other
questionable thing that I have here So, those items might point towards more towards their guilt, you know, if if
there were only two people there. Mhm. Um but one thing that might point towards their innocence, and this is one
thing that I had that I can't get over, is the amount of overkill on the father.
Mhm. Okay, so they point out, they being the police, that this is this points to
somebody knowing the victim. That that that A lot of times in crimes we will see see overkill because there's a deep
hatred from the person killing the person to the the victim. There's a deep hatred.
Well, not necessarily in this case. It they the the the perpetrator may in fact have
known them. It doesn't have to be somebody close on their inner circle. If Sebastian was in fact the one that was
swinging the murder weapon, what evidence do we have that he hated this man so much that he hit him 40 or
50 times? Right. What Why would he go to overkill? It seems to me like they if if in fact they killed the Refae
family, they simply did it for money. That they simply did it to uh live together and have some money to
finance their their goal, their dream. Right. I I guess. Overkill is not necessary.
That's just to remind you that that's what uh Atif kept on saying in his confession was
uh yeah, we did this for money, I guess. Right. to end everything with Right, and that's what I mean. There
there would be no reason for overkill. Now, let me throw this at you. We had those three tips. All three of those
tips involve some form of of what you could say is an easy leap to religious hatred.
That somebody could hate another person for religious reasons. Why would there be overkill on one victim, the
father, and not overkill on the other two victims? If you had somebody that was just busting into a place for a
thrill kill, you would see overkill on all three of these individuals. Right, they're trying to make a
statement. If you were looking and believed that monetary this was just a money that money was the motive, you
wouldn't see overkill on any of these victims. Whoever killed Mr. Rifaat hated that man
very badly. Right. Which those Which to me I need I need you would have to point
out reasons why that would mean why that would implicate Sebastian. Right, or And I don't see those. I just don't see
those. And I don't have a problem with the jury. I don't have a problem with their final conclusion with with the
guilty verdict on both of these guys. And the reason being is I think the way that this case was presented to them and
what was presented to them in court I think it would be hard for me not to have given a guilty verdict as well.
What I do have a problem with is this whole confession to begin with. I don't think it should have ever been allowed
in the courtroom. And I think without this confession you you have no way to convict these
guys. There's no way there's no way you could get me to go, "Yep, they're guilty."
You just couldn't do it. I think I think this confession is there's there's parts of it that do not ring
true to me. There are parts of it that I think can are probably bogus. It's one of those weird cases, Captain.
My gut tells me one thing, the evidence shows me another, and without this This is not legal in the United States. This
The way they obtained this confession is not legal in the United States. How can
they use it in our court of law? I I don't understand. Yeah, and what what the government argued for years
about this case and what they rightfully decided was this crime took place in Washington. It
will be tried in Washington because that's where the crime took place. And so you should have to go
off of that set of rules. Mhm. So, if somebody goes over to the Middle East and they're in a country where it's
okay to rip toes off or cut hands off to get somebody to confess and they get somebody to confess to a
murder that took place in New York City and they transfer the person from the Middle East over to New York City.
Are we going to go with that confession? Right. Are we going to allow that in? And I think um
in this case, these guys should be whether you think they're guilty or innocent or whether they're guilty or
innocent, these guys should be set free for the fact that you made up the rules as you went along. And that's not
something that we should be doing as a system, a justice system. It's supposed to be uh truth and justice and you
didn't try to find either. The other thing that's really disturbing about this case is that there was a jury
member that was highly against this confession and it took notes of over 250, maybe 300 pages of notes.
This jury member was uh before the verdict was taking place, they were excused from the trial.
And I feel like this is um this was a tactic? Yeah, but I think from the beginning, I
mean, it was like we're going to get this Mr. Big Op operation in. We are going to get them to confess, then we're
going to get them down to you, and then we're going to make sure that this goes through and um cuz they they allowed in
so much stuff uh that I think they just shouldn't have and I don't think they got a fair trial
and it's sad that these guys are in jail. Again, whether they did it or not, that's not the point. It's a justice
system. All right, Captain, what are your other thoughts? All right, so I think um
my gut feeling is that they are innocent. That they they they didn't do this. I don't think it was enough of a
motivation. You have a pretty wealthy family that seems to be helping you out doing
things. You're in a nice college. What's this Yeah, I know it's a few hundred thousand dollars and you think
that's like a really big deal. But how much is that going to change your life? Mhm.
I don't know if it's enough of a motivation to kill your whole family for a few hundred thousand dollars.
Now, one of the points of evidence to me other than the fact that we have so many
eyewitnesses that claim that they saw them, right? Mhm. The one of the major points for me that
I I can't really get over and so I can't say that they're guilty is the sister. Now, I think a lot of people see that oh
well, we came home and we noticed the mom's dead and we noticed my dad's dead and I could hear my sister. And I think
a lot of people go, well, he needed her to die. That's why he didn't help her. Right? So, that would point to him being
guilty. But you call the police. You know she's not dead. There's a chance that the police
are going to get there in time and by the way, when the police can't find the house, what are you doing? Hey, we're
over here. Mhm. If you need her to die so you can get this money, right? And then you don't have her to
you know, you're not going to be responsible for her, then you don't need the cops to get there right away and you
can let it the time elapse even more. Mhm. You know what I mean? So, yeah, you show
up after the movies and after you get done at this club, mom's dead, dad's dead, sister's not
dead yet. Now, you got an option. You can finish her off or you can just wait an hour or so.
And then call police. Or when police are coming there, you don't flag them down.
So, that's the one uh piece of evidence that that I can't say that they're guilty because of that
piece of evidence. All right, so these two pieces of evidence to me that I can't
say that they're 100% innocent are this. During Sebastian's confession, he says these murders took place during when
they were supposed to be in the movie theater. And then the forensic evidence matched that. So, out of all the things
that he might have got wrong or might have not remembered, he got the time of death of when they
had to be at the house. Right. He got the time frame right. A small window of time, he got that
exactly right. Right. And what is super odd here is that he has done this before.
In high school, he wrecked his car. And when he wrecked his car, he decided that he was going to try to create an
alibi. And he did so by saying he moved the pieces that of the wreckage, moved his car, moved them to a movie theater,
then got tickets or whatever. And so, to kind of claim like, well, I wasn't involved in the crash.
Now, this is a big lie. Yeah. This is fraud. This is a big deal. This is This is criminal stuff. And I know
that his father and so many other people have said, "But these were just little kids at the time." Yeah, but sometimes
little kids create murders and that makes them awful pieces of [ __ ] Right? So, this this is a bad thing. This is
lying. This is fraud. Whatever you look at insurance companies, who cares? It's The fact is it's a big deal and he's
tried to do this alibi before. I think that's very fishy. So, not only does he get the time correctly, he also tried to
use this as an alibi earlier in his life. And because of those two things, uh this
is going to become a red light case for me. I mean, it already has where I I have thought, "Oh, well, see, but this
makes them look innocent. But, oh, you see, this makes them look guilty." I've changed my opinion four or five
times in the past 2 weeks. Yeah, but we both agree that the way they got these confessions were
was wrong. Wrong. It's just wrong. And they shouldn't have been used at trial, and if they weren't used at
trial, I don't think they would have been able to get a conviction. All right, Captain, how about a little
recommended reading for this week? All right, me mateys. We're recommending Beautifully Cruel, So
Lovely, So Twisted by award-winning journalist M. William Phelps. This is heart-pounding story storytelling at its
best. Phelps gives us a chilling account of the last person anyone would assume to be a cold-hearted killer, a
beautiful, devoted mother and housewife in a small town. This housewife seemed to have it all, but beneath the happy
facade was a woman who used lies, manipulation, sex, and even murder to serve her own selfish needs. Check out
Beautifully Cruel, So Lovely, So Twisted by M. William Phelps. Yeah, you can check out all of our
recommended reading since the beginning, since we started doing the recommended reading. Just go to our website
truecrimegarage.com and click on the recommended page. And while you're at the website, go to
the blog page because I want to hear if you think that these guys are guilty, if
they're innocent. So, join in the conversation. All right, now we want everybody out there.
Mhm. Yeah. we want to thank everybody for join Now, look one more time. We'll try it
three four more times. We want to thank everybody for joining us in the garage. We give you a cheers,
whether it be a long distance or one nearby. Close. a little shiner holiday cheers, right?
Yeah. To warm the heart this cold This cold cold week that we've had. My feet are freezing right now.
All right. Until next time, friends. Be good. Be kind. And don't litter.

True East Murders /// Part 2 /// 166

Part 2 of 2

www.TrueCrimeGarage.comJuly 13th, 1994- just after 2a.m. The Bellevue Washington Police Department were called to a crime scene. Two teenagers, Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay returned to the Rafay family home. The house is located in a quiet upper middle class area of Bellevue. When they arrive, they stumbled onto a horrific scene. Atif's parents and sister had been brutally attacked. The young men called for help. Sebastian called 911 asking for police and an ambulance. First responders arrived on scene very quickly. Atif's older sister died at the hospital just a few hours after the attack. She was unable to tell the Detectives who had attacked her. This week in the Garage we discuss the triple homicide of the Rafay family and the investigation that followed.

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Brief Summary

Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay are accused of murdering Rafay's family, leading to controversial confessions and a complex trial.

Key points

Chilling Coincidence. Detectives find a disturbing clue linking Sebastian's play to the murders.
The Great Despisers. Sebastian and Atif start working on a screenplay about their situation.
Mr. Big Strategy. The police use an undercover operation to extract a confession from Sebastian.
The Confession Begins. Sebastian meets with Mr. Big and begins to confess to the murders.
The Evidence Discrepancy. Conflicting stories arise regarding the clothing worn during the murders.
The Bat's Mystery. Sebastian struggles to explain the origin and disposal of the murder weapon.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It certainly doesn't rule them out.

Discussing the implications of Sebastian's past.

6:50WatchNov 27, 2022

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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