West Memphis 3 /// A Harvest of Innocence /// Part 2 | Forensic Files

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visit dve Thomas foundation.org SL learn [Music] moreis West Memphis [Music] 3 Damen Eck Jason Baldwin Jesse Miss
Kelly West Memphis [Music] 3 they were just 8 years old Steven Branch Michael Moore and Christopher
buers found murdered hog hi and naked in a drainage dit in West Memphis West Memphis
3 the state stands behind the conviction for my understanding there were two Jason bals I've always wondered
When Miss Kelly's giving this coerced confession do do you think that that he was speaking speaking of the Jason
Baldwin that that that they arrested or you think he was just speaking to the whatever persons they were going to try
to no we he he knew exactly what he he was saying and the reason he said it was because that's what the cops wanted him
to say and Jason and Damian were inseparable they were like a joined twins literally I mean they did
everything together and but they weren't very much alike but it doesn't forgive those attorneys for not putting on an
alibi defense had an alibi are you able to take us through that a little bit the
AL yeah because I that was the one day I was at trial uh when the jury after the
jury went in the uh Jury Room I I wanted to see what was going to happen obviously because I was thinking there's
no way surely to God they're going to convict these guys because there's no evidence and um so uh I was stunned when
they came back you know and the judge read the verdict and asked Damian if he had anything to say and my recollection
was he said No in fact I think he just shook his head no and the judge made him say it out loud I remember very clearly
Jason saying yeah I'm innocent right that was the only two or three words that he got to say during
the entire trial and he begged his lawyers to let him testify and they wouldn't do it they didn't put on any
defense it's like they were scared to have their own trial the jury would have seen like you were talking about between
the the the contrast between Baldwin and Eckles that that would have been apparent and obvious to the jury that
these are two very different personalities had had baldman taken the stand for people who it's sort of like
having a losing a child it's it's something if you've never experienced it um it's hard to understand but let me
try to make it understandable and it's probably it's it was one of my goals in the book to do
that and I may have failed miserably but uh I wanted to explain to them just how
bad the satanic Panic was and in this day and age of fake news and the Deep State theories and all these crazy
Notions on on the internet uh um back then it was devil worshiping and this was a Satanic ritual and U that was
their Theory and and uh they stuck with it until they uh found their scapegoats and Damian was the prime suspect because
he was the standout he if it was 101 degrees and 100% humidity outside he wore a black trench coat black pants and
uh combat boots and a black t-shirt underneath the way that that persons try to tell this story on the Internet or on
different podcasts that that claim to have a great understanding of the cas is they they make it sound like Jesse just
willy-nilly all sudden decided oh I'm just gonna I'm just talking and telling and having a good time and telling a
telling the story how it happened and no a lot of that was people pulling this out of him and setting him up to fail
miserably our psychologist called it cheating to lose Jesse will agree with anything you say just because he's
trying to hide his uh intellectual disability um I started out as I stated in the book I got first person I call
was Park DEET because of the dmer case uh he was the The Shining Star in criminal psychology at the time and I
knew if he read this confession that that um he would be able to punch holes in it but he wouldn't even talk to me
till I wrote him a check for $155,000 right and I didn't have 1500 uh to do that or 150 probably at that time
so we ended up with um not the best but the worst if I had been smart enough to read John grisham's book A Time to Kill
I would have thought to ask my psychologist if he had a damn license or not and he didn't so it was like a
nuclear bomb going off in the courtroom the guy lied to us when we confronted him about it brunette wouldn't give us a
continuance to find somebody else to evaluate him naturally the kids never had the best of anything in his life
except for Richard offet and Warren Holmes and some may say myself but but um uh I started at the top everywhere I
went and I'm I got the best person on the planet for false confessions and I got the best person on the planet for
polygraph which Miss Kelly passed but brette wouldn't let in even though there was case law from the Supreme Court
including an Arkansas case that said any evidence tending to show the innocence of the client is admissible but he
wouldn't let it in naturally well and you were outside of being an attorney you were you were teaching law for a
period right um yes um I I taught criminal justice and the Constitution and a Sociology class uh to and and I
think that's how you know you had to once you take your anger out I think think that that's how you have to kind
of deliver the story of like a teacher would standing in front of the class it's this is this is the way it was yeah
what happened thought of that uh that's a good point um very astute uh and and you know the day the Alfred plea even
though I didn't understand it I felt like the world have been lifted off my shoulders um and then Pam Hobs and and
um uh Mark buers Mark buers I'm sorry U it's been a long week and a long day but
um they both came up to me in the courtroom and made me promise that I'd find the real killer so I went from
being done with this nightmare to the nightmare starting over again but what could I say so here I am all these years
later looking for a killer I've actually got a suspect well and let's let's go down let's table that for a second but
because we brought Mark buers he in my opinion I you know I hate that I mean the whole let's let's let's try to
I'll try to make light of the situation as best one can given the the severity of everything obviously but Mark buers
to me is somebody that could have had his own reality TV show you know you could just put cameras and follow this
guy around and he he's you can't take your eyes off of him for whatever reason he's a kind of stole the show if you
would during the paradise loss stuff but you met him several times what was your first encounter with Mark buers
like well it was still in the day when I was convinced absolutely convinced that
he was the one who killed the kids and um I was doing a live feed uh from New York on court TV about uh Daman Eckles
rule 37 hearing I completed my segment and buyers was next and so this was the first time I'd been within you know 50
ft of him uh Striking Distance yeah exactly or shooting distance yeah yeah might be a better way to put it um he
came up to me and um took my hand and uh I thought he'd broke my hand I really did um and I took that as a warning to
back off to say he's a big boy would be an understatement I'm a very large human
[Music] being uh but I'm a dwarf compared to him and it felt like his hand wrapped around
mine twice when he squeezed it and uh I literally thought he had broken my hand and I took that as a warning to back off
and of course I didn't back off and wouldn't because I had a duty to my client he and I actually you know by the
time we met again we were on the same team um and um I think he realized that you know that was pretty stupid of me to
act like the the clown on Paradise Lost too because it drw a lot of attention towards me I think they I think they
kind of wound him up a little bit though I'm sure they did and the second film was no there's no question about it
there was an advocacy film for the West Memphis 3 by then and which almost didn't happen HBO was threatened to be
sued by the Hobs family for for uh making another film and uh they they almost canned it to make the third one
no the second one the second one what why would why would the Hobs family go after them to cancel the second because
this makes them relive it every time uh something else comes out and and I'll go
ahead on the record and apologize for that happening again um and I don't completely understand their pain because
they had 8-year-old who passed away my kid was 34 but I do understand better than I did then and um it's it's
horrible and and I but I remember because I found it in my file when I was writing the book I didn't put it in the
book but uh I actually remember writing a letter to the executive producer at HBO uh Sheila nans
begging her to let this come out let the truth come out and let let the film come
out and of course uh as it turns out I ultimately determined buyers couldn't have done it because I could account for
every second of where he was uh at the time of the murders when when I saw that in your book I jumped off of my couch in
celebration because he was an easy he didn't do himself any favors like he looked guilty camera and but but one
thing we did when we covered this case on True Crime garage back in 2016 and we did everything we could in
two weeks time to pull together all the information on the confirmed timelines of the night that they went missing up
until past the the time that the boys were found and and we pulled all several sources to confirm everything and one
thing that we said at the end of those three hours of our coverage of the case we said we can't tell you who did it we
can tell you who didn't do it and one of those persons is Mark buers because we could not find a we could not find more
than a three or three to five minute Gap anywhere that timeline that he was that
he was alone and and so as guilty as he looked on camera in Paradise Lost 2 he just
simply couldn't have done it and and and and to hear somebody of your level and expertise to say the same thing I felt I
felt pretty proud of myself in that moment well you nailed it you definitely did uh for sure and one of the best
parts of Paradise Lost 3 um Purgatory I believe was the name um y was the David Letterman's top 10 reasons
why I didn't do it and Terry Hobs did uh why do you think that that this is something I've always struggled with why
the hell didn't West Memphis PD pull in a bigger outfit to take on this case in your opinion this I I get
this will strictly be opinion but well mar mar lever has pointed that out and I don't know if it was in Devil's not I
think it was there was might have been her subsequent book potential Shady activity
going on yes there was um not potential it was actual uh the FBI set up a sting uh the
Greyhound uh Park uh in West Memphis and someone faked a 911 call and said there's a drug deal going down in the
parking lot and the drug task force that Brent Davis had exonerated earlier one of the prosecutors uh the chief
prosecutor and um he had said he looked into it and everything was fine and dandy uh but the feds came in
and set up this thing and all these guys show up and what what do you know some of the
money doesn't get reported to the evidence uh locker and some of it was found in uh a shoe box under an
officer's bed that the bills were marked and uh so at the time of the murders the
Arkansas State Police police who who are much better equipped to handle major crimes because that's what they
do um The West Memphis Police wouldn't let them in because they were pissed off they were being investigated and there
were convictions now I will say this out of fairness the the officer who had the
money under his bed must have had the best lawyer and he is a good lawyer because I know who it is it Bill Bristo
uh from Jonesboro he got acquitted of that even though the money was under his P
so how about hats off the bill uh is everybody knows he's a great lawyer but uh I I don't know how he pulled that one
off and meanwhile we say you know then calling a bigger better outfit with more resources
which they should have done I mean th this type of crime is extremely rare I mean I that's all I do for the last
eight years is cover Crime Story stories and I cannot think offhand of another situation where there's well other than
the yogurt shop case down in Texas Yeah Austin that's anything similar and so it's extremely rare but but meanwhile
they do contact the FBI John Douglas Ken Lanning and the two of the experts I mean if there was a mountain of experts
these guys are at the top of it and these guys are saying Satanic ritual killing no doesn't doesn't really exist
doesn't truly happen and yet they pursued this Avenue instead well they had to CU they were stuck was mis kill's
confession they couldn't come in and say oh we made a mistake we're still going to try them anyway and that's
fascinating because um that that's that is in my book and and um sitting here at
my desk probably writing the book um a couple years ago and I get this text message
from a friend of mine uh um actually it was my Prosecutor's wife Kimberly warmouth and she said I can't even
listen to an honorable audible book without your name being mentioned and I said what are you talking about and she
text back and said John Douglas uh talks about you in his book and I said what are you talking about and I didn't know
the cases that haunt us I believe is the one uh it's sitting right here in my bookshelf let's see law and disorder law
that's correct law and disorder and I think you're probably mentioned in the cases that haunt us as well well I need
to look that up I because I didn't know about that one either you know John Douglas worked on the case with us uh he
was brought in primarily by Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh um who spent Millions probably their own money to to
uh basically give the West Memphis free the trial they never had that was the purpose of their
documentary the story goes according to uh because I ordered the book immediately and it took about three or
four days to get here and and I opened it up I didn't read the whole book I just read the part about the West
Memphis 3 and and he talks about uh going returning from Arkansas and I think he mentioned since about how hot
it was there uh which was true and he ran into Ken Lanning and he said hey Ken uh I was told that the prosecutors in
the west Memphis case actually called for help and uh do you remember anything like that and Ken Lanning who had
debunked the the theory of Satanic ritual homicide told him that if you try the case that way you'll be laughed out
of the courtroom and of course they didn't get laughed out of the courtroom because we're in the middle the Bible
Belt and everybody takes the Bible literally and believes in Satan I'm not I'm not mocking anybody's religion but
I'm just saying people in the Bible Belt react differently than other people other other places so um which added to
the satanic panic but but uh and he said Ken said the next thing I knew I'm reading in the paper they were all
convicted Douglas thought that was hilarious that the the prosecutors uh had called and and um and
Ken Ken said he said well did they ever call you back he said no they didn't call me back and uh they did the same
thing in the John Benet Ramsey case uh they the FBI told them what they thought and they didn't like the FBI's uh the
prosecution didn't like what the FBI was saying exactly just the same thing as in
the west Memphis case so and to put it in perspective a little bit and this may not re this a lot of persons listening
today especially the younger audience may not know what this means but you know I was looking up a lot of the local
newspaper articles going on at the time in early May and early June of 1993 in your area and I couldn't help but notice
coming across a June 3D 1993 big advertisement for Billy Graham TV special titled the value of a soul
was going to be on that night at 7 p.m on W channel 3 and and that's what three four days before Jesse M Killy gives the
the so-called confession to the police and you know you have Billy Graham TV evangelist on on the local network there
delivering the special the value of a soul so it yes I mean it's it we had a little bit of that uh in the early 990s
here in Ohio again I was very young so I don't have great understanding of it but
uh I could only imagine how much stronger that was in the South it was palpable and it's like I told Eddie
veter at our meeting our first meeting um you know somebody like Daman Eckles if you go to New York or La there's aund
of them on the sidewalk walking down the street Gothic and you know the dark makeup and all that jazz and and uh but
that doesn't happen in Northeast Arkansas not even in Memphis um so uh he he stuck out like a swore of thumb
and he was the perfect py well and he and he was young and dumb enough that he liked kind of sticking out oh he he
toyed with the cops like he played with him and said asked him what what do you think the killer would be thinking at
the time that he was doing this and the answer was real spooky and and it's just
you know the kid did not do himself any favors and he understands that now and and I haven't seen him since Bruce sow's
Memorial um at the Lincoln Center uh back in 2015 I believe um gosh it didn't seem like it was that long ago but it
was he's changed a tremendous amount um and of course you know how could you not
be affected by 18 years and 78 days in a 10x1 concrete tomb uh with nothing to do one hour of
being outside with nothing to do uh I don't know how he survived it but um he he U he said something about
uh I was wearing a tie and he said he said hey Dan are we supposed to get dressed up for this and and and I said I
said I I don't know this is just the way I dress when I go places and because I didn't want to embarrass him um
and um but I could tell it it freaked him out so I mean it just um and who wouldn't be I really genuinely feel
sorry for him and uh I hope some of these people are right and and maybe maybe my book did have some impact on
Arkansas Supreme Court's decision to send it back to the trial court for rethink the concept of uh testing the
the evidence with new DNA technology and of course what's good for Damian Eckles
is good for Jesse Miss Kelly and Jason Baldwin so we've got a partial DNA in fact um there's just not enough markers
to put it in codus we can exclude people but not include them so maybe this will
get us to where we need to be and here we here we still have the state of Arkansas fighting us tooth and nail I
say us because I considered all all of us in this together even though you know I'm a judge I don't practice law anymore
but here they are their first story was uh the evidence was lost in a flood and then the second story was it
burned up in a fire and then suddenly it magically reappeared um and the evidence room of
all places um and so I mean they just they will not accept the fact that these kids didn't do it because it's going to
make them look like what they are and that is people who put the wrong people in prison and don't want to admit
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said the flood and I don't know if this is the situation there but I've run into
this situation many times talking to detectives on cases that we cover especially old cases cold
cases why does the evidence room always seem to be in the basement of the building right the the the the location
that would be most affected should there be a flow blood well they said that they
moved it to a different location to store it which really they didn't have any obligation to keep it at all because
the case is legal conclusion so um so they said it was off site and then then they suddenly found it uh in in the
evidence room and they moved the police station after the trials in '94 sometime
after that uh to an old Bank building that had gone out of business and so the evidence room was actually the bank
vault so uh it was well protected in there but they denied they had it because they didn't want to deal with it
I'm still speaking without having had the benefit of reading the full opinion but um it looks like they're going to
get to test the evidence to me and that could have huge ramifications for the case to give those people out there who
are on the fence or who are or who are completely convinced that they're guilty let me ask them a question and that
question is do you think that three kids accused of murdering three eight-year-old kids would not roll over
on each other right that doesn't happen in real life right and and in confession
air quotes confession aside that's the thing that I try to point out because there's people that that do say well
Jesse Melly can confessed five six seven however many times he but as far as I'm
and yes that does that does muddy the waters a little bit but he could as far as the as far as courts go
he could he could have confessed a thousand different times but he never was willing to do it in court when he
was offered deals and the reason for that was is people who have Mr U have this and it's a sort of unique
trait for people that have Mr they believe they cannot tell a lie in a courtroom they can lie on a Bible
sitting at the assistant warden's office at prison in front of me um U I've seen
people ly on the Bible before he wasn't there he never was there because when I showed him the the police map of where I
had him I told him I needed a Bible and I needed a crime scene map and to Wi out
where the bodies were located and I finally got that and I asked Miss Kelly to point to where the bodies were
located and he pointed to the large pipe that goes across the 10mile Bayou because that came up so many times
during the trial he was just guessing again all he was doing and so um but when it got down to to are you going to
testify or not he said I I can't lie on those boys no more cuz uh he he couldn't
lie in court because mentally handicap people think that that's a mortal sin it's like a little child right the child
the child wants to please the person they're interacting with and it's almost like he wants to provide an answer
that's the answer that you are seeking rather than the true answer exactly and and uh Tim dering who was our
postconviction forensic psychologist he's the one who interviewed Miss Kelly and and provided
his findings which changed my whole impression of what Jesse Miss Kelly was capable of intellectually I mean it
shocked me because I had no experience whatsoever in dealing with people who had Mr or who were intellectually
challenged I I you know I couldn't understand and it actually frustrated me that I couldn't understand why can't
this kid get the story right and according to um Dr dering people with Mr believe they can't tell lie in the
courtroom but they can lie anywhere else they want to but they can't do it in the
courtroom and in reading that in the transcript I uh I called Jason Baldwin one night he didn't answer but he called
me the next day and he said I said I heard they offered you five years to testify against Damian and he said yep
they did a a prison sentence of five years yes they offered me five years to testify against Damian but I told him
just just so everybody out there listening completely understands he's facing what life in prison or the death
penalty or the death penalty and instead he's offered five years to turn on his friend for something that the state or
at least the prosecutors are convinced that he is guilty of and we know he doesn't five years he doesn't take the
5year deal I told Jason after he confirmed that I said you do understand that would have basically been time
served he goes yeah that's what they told me and I didn't take it and he was willing to spend another five years
waiting to get a new trial if necessary so that he could be exonerated but instead he sacrificed himself just like
I did when I fell on my sword at the rule 37 and told the truth the other lawyers said oh no we did this because
it was strategy and we did a good job and uh but I was the only one that told the truth let me ask you this while
we're talking about doing the wrong thing and you can give me a short answer long answer or you can say Nick I'm a
judge I don't feel comfortable answering that question okay this sounds like it's
going to be exciting do you think or have evidence of that somebody at the West Memphis Police Department sold
Jesse Miss Kelly's so-called confession to the commercial appeal the newspaper no I could never find it uh I firmly
believe that it happened I looked for it I did how I mean how else could they got
there's no way that they I so I did a word count on the newspaper article of of Miss Kelly's confession on the June
June 7th 1993 Commercial Appeal it's the headline on the front page it's 1627 words about it's practically his
whole damn conf ession printed in the news it taints the jury pole any possibility jury absolutely so you're
confident saying you we we think I think somebody sold it right there's probably
some money that exchanged the only motive for doing that other than money was to get that information out there to
taint the jury pool oh that's true and the only people who would have had that motive would be G somebody who just
walked by and saw setting on the transcripts that on a table uh maybe a secretary or somebody at the police
department or even a victim's parent which I don't believe I think it was a cop but I can't prove that I wish I
could the closest I ever came was uh I was involved in a panel discussion with Mara Levert and the former editor of the
Midsouth uh Commercial Appeal uh and um which is now def F they're out completely out of business newspapers
are a thing of the past pretty much I asked him directly I said did you purchase that from a police officer or
anybody else and he looked at me and his body language is the answer he did buy it
from uh somebody a cop but he wouldn't answer the question but um uh of course he didn't have to answer the question
but just asking it and seeing his response was enough for me to know that he bought it from somebody otherwise it
wouldn't have been copyrighted it's very rare for a true Crim store to be copyrighted Yeah by a newspaper in fact
I've never seen one to be honest with you they're like unicorns we already talked about Mark buers but obviously
you've met all six I'm guessing all six of the parents of the victims I've never met or
spoken to Mr Moore or his wife um they seem to be the two that are most kind of removed from everything right
yeah and you got to remember and of course um you're in Ohio I'm in Arkansas but you know the OJ trial I I use as an
example here is a case that they changed the venue to a larger courtroom to accommodate the press and the live
coverage of the trial by doing so they increased the number of uh African-Americans uh in the jury pool
mhm the riots were I think the year before 92 and and um I guess that was Rodney
King and all that stuff Y and so you had a jurry pool in in La who were very distrustful of the
police and in Arkansas saw people will buy a cop their lunch or uh restaurants will give them free coffee or food uh
and everybody believes that the cops are your best friend and for the most part they are but there are some who aren't
so we you know to to compare those juries um we had a jury that was distrustful of the police then we had
Mark Ferman who uh said he didn't use never use the nword but they had him on tape saying it repeatedly m in our case
we had a jury pool who believed everything the police would tell them the sky was green and had yellow polka
dots right so it's two different situations and I think I pointed it out in the book that I think both juries got
it wrong for the wrong reason yep it's it's just um and of course in any case whether it's high-profile or not a jury
is only as good as the evidence in front of it and berett would not let us put on our
case because he knew what would happen uh we almost won the case we had five votes for AC quiddle in the first round
of voting in the Jury Room wh- which is amazing considering the circumstances yeah exactly had Dr as been permitted to
testify you and I might be having the same conver conversation but it would have been 30 years ago
now and I and I would be a killionaire with the yeah oh yeah of course but with the parents of the
victims from my general understanding it sounds like of the six that likely maybe three of them were
swayed the other way of thinking that the West Memphis Three were innocent eventually mark buers his wife is hard
to say because unfortunately she passed away years ago Pam Hobs of course uh has
been very vocal at times saying that she believes that the the West Memphis 3 are
Innocent but the Moors seem to from my understanding still believe that they're guilty and of course Terry Hobbs as well
maybe Dana mo may have wavered on that a little bit at times I I don't know she did um but I never spoke to her I did
speak to Terry Hobbs one time I've I've actually spoken to Terry Hobbs uh couple
he he said that he would do an interview with me if I sent him the questions in advance and I sent what I did was I sent
him the same questions that the FBI said to ask every every person that you interview to the West Memphis 3 because
because I thought well I'm sorry to be laughing but that's that's hilarious is that well I thought it was a good idea
because no I think it's brilliant like I'm not trying to put any of the parents through anything but it's like well
these were the questions we were asking people that we knock on the doors of but
we I've been doing this long enough to know that the younger the victim the smaller their Social Circle the Le you
know the the less suspects you have and so I and he told me I'll answer any question you give me so I sent him the I
sent them the same ones that the FBI told the West Memphis PD to ask everybody they encounter the same
questions that Jesse Melly would have answered and Damen Eckles would have answered and well I I was going to say
between me and but there's going to be 100,000 people that hear this all of a sudden a family emergency came up and he
we never did the interview he couldn't make it yeah yeah but anyway you you said you you talked to Terry I did I had
I had a strange encounter with him during the second trial I I didn't go in the courtroom because there was a live
feed in the hallway and so I was just kind of watching uh just because I was curious obviously and I stepped out of
the courtroom to go back to parag where I live um and and um he approached me and at first I thought uhoh I'm going to
fixing to get cussed out here uh right he's not a very big fellow I wouldn't worry about my safety but um he came up
to me and quite graciously said hey I think you did a good job for Miss Kelly and I know you're just doing your job
and uh was actually very kind and I and I was stunned by that not stunned surprised I was stunned when his DNA
link showed up on the shoe strings of Michael Moore that that that was that was a shock well let me interrupt you
here for a second because I was trying to find this the other day and and you you probably won't know it off the top
of your head but I was I remember six seven years ago when I was looking at this case that the the boys
of course they're tied up with the shoelaces but they're not necessarily up with their own shoelaces right like some
of them were tied up with with another boy's shoelaces I only go down that road because I think obviously like it
wouldn't be out of bounds to find something of Terry hobb's DNA at that scene especially when Stevie
Branch who lives with him 247 in the same house but then it's a different victim
Michael Moore but I I don't call offand whose shoelaces tied up Michael Moore I do
recall it was Michael Moore's okay percentagewise less likely that you would find Terry hobbs' DNA on Michael
Moore shoelaces let me answer the question this way and um there's more evidence against Terry Hobbs than any of
the West Memphis 3 yes and uh but do I think Terry Hobbs did it no without some proof I don't I think we're dealing with
a serial killer I get why a lot of people have kind of turned on Terry Hops and and I know you said you were kind of
surprised and yes you're surprised because I don't think you're saying you're you were surprised by his
demeanor toward you because he's under suspicion I think you're saying that because you were surprised by his
demeanor because he you're helping trying to exonerate the persons that were accused of of the cribes yeah I
mean that that's that that whole that whole encounter has really kind of haunted me all these years um he he was
very nice when he spoke with me and not that that means anything but well he he does have a History of Violence he shot
Pam's sister or her brother I think right or her her sister her brother yes uh his
brother-in-law and and he got out of it of it by essentially saying well I'm a victim of the West Memphis 3ks and but
those two had a volatile relationship don't you think they did they did and and um there's no doubt about that but
you know I'm I'm I'm not going to point the finger at Terry Hobs at this stage in the procedings
because I don't think there's enough there not yet there may be after we get some more DNA testing done well let's go
down the serial killer route all right you want to expand on that do you feel comfortable expanding on that a little I
mean there were other child murders in the area and obvious and what what is so bizarre is some of them took place in
May and I'm not a big believer that these that it's like on TV or the movies where these killers operate on a
calendar so to speak or or fascinated by numbers or anything like that but do you
think that it that this really involves the the Blue Beacon and the traffic through the air
or do you think it's somebody very local if you look at the crime scene overhead
map um or this the sketches that were made by the police um that truck stop was immediately adjacent to the place
where they found the bodies in the wooded area you could literally throw a baseball so if you parked up against the
back and in the photograph that HBO took um it shows the the trucks backed up as
far away from as they could get from anybody else in the parking lot which is someone like 10 acres or or maybe more
and uh which means they didn't want to be bothered for whatever reason I don't remember whether I addressed this in the
book or not I've slept a couple times since then not many but a few those shoelaces were tied in such a
way that I don't think they were designed to keep them from running or getting away I think they were designed
as carrying handles because you had left foot to left ankle right or what am I saying left wrist left to left right to
right you think you think they were killed elsewhere I do I do there's uh there no blood at found there would had
been a tremendous amount of blood different location or in the back of empty 18wheeler or in the cab of an
18wheeler the best job to have if you're a serial killer is a truck driver so that you can be six states away by the
time they find the bodies and there's no connection and the FBI has told us that
for for years since the 90s in fact and and so you think it was somebody you lean toward the idea that it would have
been somebody that was not local that that would have had the ability to move on very quickly yes I do and and do you
have anybody in in particular I do but I don't want to share that because I don't
want uh to comped my investigation but but it would be a name that persons that that would be it it would be a name that
what is not in the Paradise Lost movies or not in West Memphis 3 books I've never spoken anyone about it without an
NDA agreement right um and and um but I I can place a over the road truck driver
in the area the immediate area who confessed to killing someone and told the police exactly where the body would
be found and it was found exactly where he said it was in 1992 do you does it have anything to do
with the Bojangles no I don't think so at all do you think that's one of the biggest missteps in this whole I think
it was and and I'm not saying this because I for the truth of the matter asserted I'm saying it because I believe
that is why that blood never made it to Little Rock to the crime lab because uh they didn't want it to uh match anything
because they already had their three guys wrapped up that's just my belief but um I find it strangely coincidental
and I really don't believe in coincidences you on the night that the kids come up missing
and the patrol is out uh looking for these three kids and uh they get a call from a fast food
place saying hey this guy just stumbled into our lady's restroom and bled everywhere in there and saturated a roll
of toilet paper with blood Left Behind Some bloody sunglasses which would have had fingerprints on them and the cop
pulls through the dter and says n throw it away we don't care and so by the time
they found the bodies the next day they suddenly cared enough to come and take the blood sample but Brian rids
testified that lost it and never got sent to the crime lab because by then they had their guys and they had their
story and they had to stick to it even though the FBI told them they were full of however you want to phrase it again
I'll if if you give me the answer Nick I'm a judge and I don't feel comfortable answering this question I I I'll be fine
with that but what do you think and I know this is pure speculation complete absolute speculation and it's probably
not fair that I'm asking this but you're you're you I I've met Jason Baldwin very
briefly so you you are the person that is the closest to this case that I've had this level of interaction with what
would be your speculation as to what maybe Regina officer Regina Meeks might have
seen had she brushed off the mosquitoes and walked into the woods that night well I mean it's obviously speculation
um she wouldn't get out of the car to walk into the uh fast food restaurant and uh she could have at least at the
very least bagged up the toilet paper roll saturated with blood and and the sunglasses um but she told the manager
to throw them away and they were gone by the time that they they got there the next day and suddenly were interested
somehow again for reasons unknown that I can't prove other than what the testimony of the
officer was he says I just lost it how do you lose that I mean that that could be the most important evidence in
the case and how do you just lose something like that and and and the reason she wouldn't get out of her car
to walk into the woods is because if you've ever been to Arkansas in May um the mosquitoes are uh horrible they're
hungry and very hungry and um and several the officers stated that they quit searching because of the mosquitoes
but potentially could have seen well they could have seen bodies floating you know whoever dumped those bodies there
and you know one person could have with with those liers uh carried a kid that weighed 50
lbs in each hand and Carri two of them at once and dump them in of course they make this big deal about the clothes
being stuck in the mud after all the things they've said that weren't true how do you believe them on
that of course they did everything wrong at the crime scene they they didn't drain the water first they they felt
around and after they removed the bodies but they should have drained it before they lifted the bodies out but but but
instead they trampled it before they did the right thing so I mean it was out of
their league and just like this case was out of my league in 1993 and uh but I'd love to have the chance
to try it again but the offered plea has deprived me of that so do you think that
that that it's one killer or multiple Killers well if you if you believe the handle Theory I mean I've never tested
it but I mean it seems logical you know cuz if you're if you're a truck driver the last thing you want
to do is dump the body somewhere other than nearby because you don't want be pulled over three dead
8-year-olds in the back of your truck um so that's why that uh it was a dumpsite
um and also you'd want to be getting the heck out of there before they were found
so you could get to the next Blue bacon truck war and clean out your truck yeah and disappear into you only need them to
be concealed long enough for you to get at a do exactly exactly you know Terry hobbs' Alibi is weird and yep suspicious
to say the least but again until we have some evidence that a prosecutor would actually use to prosecute um it's not
going to happen and and the sad truth of the matter is even if they did prosecute
him it doesn't mean that it's an automatic exoneration or pardon from Memphis 3 they're already out of prison
so even if they found the right guy and and corroborated the confession or corroborated through DNA or whatever uh
and nobody has the ambition to do that every the authorities here in Arkansas think this is a closed deal and that's
why I wrote the book so that I could reopen the case uh to some extent and uh get people's minds thinking I had two
retired FBI profilers visit with me at the crime scene uh and they both agreed that this was a serial killer lust crime
because of the being adjacent to the U crime scene the the truck warh and the truck stop and I know John Douglas's
theory is different I think he's a firm believer that somebody these kids knew were responsible and and he's he's a
much better profiler than I am I uh I when I got called to quano I turned turned it down uh sometimes I
wish I hadn't uh cuz my life would have been dramatically different now I'll give you one last question and I'll let
you go judge and and I so appreciate your time tonight and thank you for all of your insights into this case I know
that the audience is going to enjoy it and even more reason for them to go out and pick up the book but a a question
that that constantly comes up in this case is there's several eyewitness in the neighborhood with the young boys
that say that you know at times when they were kind of running through the neighborhood and having a good old time
Christopher Stevie and Michael that they were spotted with a fourth boy I anything that you've reviewed in this
case or your investigation was that fourth child ever identified I believe the closest that we anybody's ever come
to uh finding out who that was was Aaron Hutchinson that it might have been Aaron
Hutchinson and then he he had departed from the group before probably that 6:30 timeline well I don't think so that day
I think that mother Victoria had moved into a different school district and so I think
that they hadn't been friends in a while but used to be close friends but it had
been quite some time since they had hung out and and uh not they weren't in the same school district anymore and so that
that fourth child that that may have been hanging out briefly with the boys that evening as far as we know has not
been fully identified or could be a Mis you know misremembering by well I'll be honest
with you and this is a 32y old memory um I don't recall there ever been a mention
of a fourth boy other than Aaron hutchesson making the claim that uh he witnessed the murders from their Fort
that they had built in the patch of woods but there was no Fort um even the prosecutors were skeptical enough not to
call him to the stand in fact they they hid him out so nobody else could exactly
exactly because the things he was saying was so Fantastical they didn't make it any sense at all I mean at all so judge
SDM I appreciate your time this evening it's been a fascinating conversation the
book is the best book about this case since uh Mar leverett's book in 2002 it's a must it's a must own it's a must
read for everybody out there that has been intrigued about this case all of these years later and I appreciate your
cander and your optimism that maybe that we could find who was in fact responsible one day well if I may end on
with two quotes one being Churchill is and became my Mantra throughout this entire process was never ever ever give
up perseverance does pay off in the end no there's no question about that John Douglas told me to find the artist look
at the artwork West Memphis 3est [Music] 3 Damen Eckles Jason Baldwin Jesse Miss
Kelly West Memphis [Music] 3 they were just 8 years old Steven Branch Michael Moore and Christopher
buers found murdered hog tied and naked in a drainage ditch in West Memphis West
Memphis 3 the state stands behind the [Music] convictions West Memphis 3 West Memphis 3
[Music] West Memphis

West Memphis 3 /// A Harvest of Innocence

Part 2 of 2

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After taking a listen once again to our West Memphis 3 case coverage from 2016 we have decided to revisit the case and get some additional thoughts from a perspective not yet heard on TCG. Today we welcomed in Dan Stidham, the Defense Attorney for Jesse Misskelley Jr. Mr. Stidham represented Jesse for many years and at some points was assisting Jason Baldwin as well. He has since gone on to become a highly respected Judge in Arkansas. While he is not a fan of the Alford plea, he remains one of the key figures in this case that helped the West Memphis 3 to finally get released from prison after serving 18 years.

This week’s recommended reading is - A Harvest of Innocence; the untold story of the West Memphis Three murder case by Dan Stidham

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the West Memphis 3 case, focusing on wrongful convictions and the search for the real killer.

Key points

Mrs B's Clearance Sale. Explore today's must-have trends and unique finds at Mrs B's clearance and outlet shop.
Ellie's Adoption Journey. After significant abuse, Ellie was adopted and is now planning for college.
The West Memphis 3 Case. Three boys were found murdered, leading to a controversial conviction of three teens.
Confession Controversy. The coerced confession of Jesse Miss Kelly raises questions about the trial's integrity.
Mark Buers Encounter. A tense first meeting with Mark Buers left a lasting impression.
The Evidence Reappears. Evidence that was thought lost suddenly reappears, raising questions about its handling.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It was like a nuclear bomb going off in the courtroom.

6:19WatchMay 8, 2024

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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