West Memphis 3 /// A Harvest of Innocence /// Part 1 | Forensic Files

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Android or iOS device or play on PC through Facebook games [Music] West Memphis 3 West mempis
[Music] 3 Damen Eckles and Jason Baldwin Jesse Miss Kelly West Memphis [Music] 3 they were just 8 years old Steven
Branch Michael Moore and Christopher Myers found murdered honked hide and naked in a drainage dit in West Memphis
West Memphis [Music] 3 the state stands behind the convictions I am very excited for this
upcoming conversation this evening I am joined in the garage by a one Dan stum a man who
has been an attorney currently a judge a true crime author on a case that he worked for most of his life and a case
that many people out there listening know very well that's the West Memphis 3 case the case from Arkansas
1993 Dan Mr sidm welcome to the show thank you I'm glad to be here it's an honor would you tell us a little bit
about your journey you know just your life's journey from being a young man becoming an attorney and now a judge uh
sure um I'm was born in Chicago wanted to be a lawyer uh my entire life according to my mother I used to stand
on tree stumps in the yard and and give closing arguments to juries um I guess You' have to rely on my mom for her uh
credibility but that's what she says anyway I've always wanted to be a criminal lawyer I had no interest in and
uh anything else and um that's why I became a a judge is because uh 99% of what I do as a judges
uh involves criminal law so I feel like I'm in where I'm supposed to be did you always want to represent defendants or
did you ever see yourself as maybe on the other side as a prosecutor no I've always felt like I belonged in the
defense uh category and and I'm not sure where that comes from I've been told that I have a savior complex by some
people and I'm not sure exactly what that means but um I just feel strongly about the Constitution and not the most
recent interpretations of it but the the original you know the Fourth Amendment and the Fifth Amendment and the sixth
amendment and it's very important to me that that people have and and they deserve a zealous defense despite the
how gruesome the case may be or how simple it may be it's uh it's very important to me I I'm became a public
defender because of that I thought it was a great way to get experience as a young lawyer uh after saying what
everybody says after they graduate from law school I'm never going back to my hometown again uh except to visit my
parents and and uh naturally I ended up right back in parag Gold Arkansas so um here I am still looking back back
uh on this I I I see my life as having two segments one that was normal and one that became uh I'd hate to use the word
abnormal but the the other end of the stick uh sort of because uh on May the 7th I believe it was 1993 my life
changed forever and I had no idea what I was getting involved in um or how long it would take or that I would end up
writing a book about it that's a great question so why the book now the book came out late last year it's a fantastic
it's a fascinating read but why do you choose to break what's referred to as your self-imposed silence after all
these years and that is a very good question and and it's got a pretty simple answer um number one um in 2008
when I became a full-time judge and was no longer able to work on the case I became a witness uh in the case um with
the with the issue being ineffective assistance of counsil and in my book I'm very candid about this was my first jury
trial and most people are shocked by that uh a triple homicide of 38y olds uh not exactly a perfect fit for your first
jury trial it's like going to the Super Bowl in your uh rookie year I expected fully when I accepted the case thought
my wife or now ex-wife Kim would talk me out of it but she encouraged me which surprised me so I took it even though my
father had admonished me not to I was 30 years old and and I thought it was a good idea so I did it I don't have any
regrets um it's been a long hard run and um I've suffered from it I lost my marriage because of it it affected my
children affected my health uh stole my faith uh which has now been restored it was a very very uh rough trip and I
think as I said in the book I I uh was on a long journey and I didn't have time to
pack cuz things were happening so quickly there's that line in my life the the first 30 years and now I'm in my
61st year and I realized uh back on March 3rd when I turned 61 that I was an old person all of a sudden so I'm older
than dirt and I didn't realize that at 60 but the day I woke up 61 I'm at everything hurt everything my knees hurt
my my back hurt and so U I guess it's official I'm I'm old that part I can't change so um it is what it is the title
of the book is a harvest of Innocence what does that phrase mean to you well there's no winners in this case first
because of the the way that it it unfolded and the um treachery that was involved in obtaining the convection uh
in the first place uh there were things such as jury misconduct prosecutorial misconduct
police misconduct which is imputed to the prosecutor which I firmly believe and um and I speak of it freely in the
book but to get back to your original question the second prong The aler Plea was not my doing I was a witness in my
own ineffective assistance since a council hearing which wasn't a pleasant thing to do but it it was something that
I had to do of course and and I told the truths which most lawyers don't uh they
always say I it was trial strategy that's why I did it this way they never admit that they did anything wrong
because their ego won't permit it but I don't have an ego I have an an absolute obligation and duty to my client and so
I told the truth and I was very unprepared prepared to have this be my first jury trial it violated the
American Bar Association standards that um that were in place at the time even though I thought it was going to be for
plea simply getting my client ready to testify against the other two it didn't turn out that way and ended up being a a
jury trial so uh I had been involved in a couple capital murder cases uh in law school conspiracy to commit capital
murder case capital murder case as a public defender I should say an apprentice to the public
defender our County public defender at the time so I mean I I had some experience but it wasn't you know the
experience that you need to conduct a a jury trial everybody tells me I did a wonderful job um and despite how sure I
am that it really must have hurt judge brunette sadly to Proclaim me as the best lawyer That Ever Walked the planet
the truth of the matter is I wasn't ready for this task and I didn't uh pull any punches I I uh I criticized
everybody for their mistakes in the book including my own it is what it is and my
fear in life my greatest fear in life was um I didn't know the aler plea was happening until the night before I got a
courtesy phone call from the prosecutor so I had no idea why it was happening because during the rule 37 hearing we
had completely and totally destroyed the state's case I mean it made them look like idiots and that's a tough word but
uh the truth that uh Miss Kelly's confession made absolutely no sense there's no such thing as a Satanic
ritual homicide despite the fact that some people go to seminars in 2024 to learn about Satanic ritual crimes
there's just it's a fairy tale I just don't hold back and and um but the Alfred plea itself is is a oxymoron as
my former colleague uh the late um Dennis Reen from San Francisco who was Damian's attorney one set of his he had
East Coast attorneys and West Coast attorneys that's how Dennis Reen who passed away a couple of years ago he
described it as an oxymoron and it is because I don't let people in my courtroom plead guilty to something they
didn't do so why are we doing this even though we're maintaining our innocence it's still going to be a conviction in
the light of the law so why are we doing this when we're going to get a new trial
and we're going to win straight up in the courtroom which has been my dream for many many years most of my adult life as
you pointed out uh I was shocked and I didn't understand it it was good for Damian because he'd been on death row
for 18 years and 78 days and he was ready to get out of there and I don't blame him and it was good for Jesse
mkelly because he's intellectually challenged and whether he has a felony conviction or not it's not going to
affect the outcome of his life because his disability is permanent there's no cure for it it's not going to help him
get a job it's not going to help him in life so or or create any problems for him in life so um but Jason Baldwin is
the one who took it on the chin and basically sacrificed himself and his demand uh for for justice and to be
declared innocent like which was my dream as well part of the aler ple was that um all three defendants who
maintain their innocence had to stay out of trouble for 10 years or they would um
end up having to serve the rest of their terms which I cannot remember the the number of years it's been 12 years ago
had they committed another crime which they never did then they would have had to go back to prison so I wanted to wait
10 years before I came out with my book because I did not want to piss anybody off that would that would create a
problem for these three young men whose lives had been destroyed uh just for the
sake of uh having somebody to blame it on have an a scapegoat and I wanted to get past that 10-year period And so uh
during that 10-year period I started riding and I had been riding for a number of years even before finally uh I
came to terms with uh what it cost me and what it cost me selfishly was the right to walk back into that courtroom
and win uh a case that I should have won at trial and I should have won on Direct
appeal to the Arkansas Supreme Court we were going to win after the ryal 37 hearing so I'm sitting here wondering
why are we doing this but at the time it seemed like a win for at least for my client and Damian but uh Jason is the
one who suffered the most and it took me a while to be able to talk about some of
these deep dark things that I had to endure and getting back to your original question um the Harvest or a harvest of
Innocence there's two reasons for that one there was a a journalist uh who he I don't know if he still has a column with
the largest newspaper in Arkansas the Democrat Gazette or not but he wrote an article and that was the title of the
article and essentially he said I don't know what they proved but uh the only thing I know for sure is is that this
was uh can't remember the exact towards a cruel Harvest of Innocence or a terrible Harvest of innocence and so
that just kind of stuck in my mind and and when I was exploring ideas for the title to the book that's what I came up
with and when I contacted uh my co-author and we began in Earnest writing the book in
2014 uh he hated the title he could because he couldn't understand it because he didn't he was one of the few
people on the planet that didn't know anything about the West Memphis case so I had to bring him up to speed which was
of course a a difficult task to do and after we got near the end uh he said I like the title because it's it rings
true it uh this was uh the the actually Philip Martin who wrote the article called it the evil Harvest of Innocence
but I didn't want the book to sound like a you know some kind of uh what is the word I'm looking for something that
wasn't true crime something that was I didn't want to make it into a monster movie I guess what I'm trying to say
yeah and I mean the case itself there's already enough evil in it yeah we've we've been through that part of it
certainly now I'm glad that you refer to it as an oxy [ __ ] because that's exactly as I saw and I I remember all
those years ago when the news broke it was like during the week at some point and I was meeting a friend of mine for
lunch and I said to him you said the person you just mentioned was one of the few people on the planet that had never
heard of the West Memphis 3 case well my my friend that I was meeting for lunch that day knew almost nothing about it as
well and I said and I was angry and I said he goes what are you so angry about I said well this case and he goes I
don't know nothing about the case Nick but what is what is this Alfred plea thing and I said look I said I don't
know much about it either I said but here's my understanding of it that if you if you beg and plea that you are
innocent they will keep you locked up in prison for 18 years but but if you tell
them that you're guilty and yeah I did it they'll let you go free like that's that was my interp my my novice
interpretation of it in in Anger that moment there there's a very compelling chapter in the book about me trying to
gain access to my client before The Plea and and the Hoops I had to jump through
to to be able to do that and I don't want to give anything away but but uh I didn't realize it at the time but they
thought that I was there to stop the Alfred play and like I said at the time I thought it was a win cuz my client was
going home I promised him uh after he was convicted that I would never give up until he got to go home and be with his
dad and and I I was keeping my promise so I thought this is good the world's been lifted off my shoulder um I can
write my book when it's time and but it's more complicated than that it's very complicated to that and the younger
the audience that I speak to the harder it is to explain because they don't understand and you know to give you an
example someone in my court just the other day said well I'm not guilty but I'm ple guilty just to get this over
with and I said no you're not I'll see you in July for trial we're going to have a trial because I got to be able to
sleep tonight um you either did it or you didn't and if you didn't I'll acquit you and if you did then I'll set your
punishment we don't do Alfred Polie in my courtroom because I don't believe in them so it took me literally eight of
those 10 years before we published to really dig down deep enough to understand then a why B how did it
happen who whose idea was it and who who uh came up with the idea and and um because I Nick I'd always imagined
myself all these years and during these 18 years and 78 days of being Russell Crow walking into the Coliseum with a
large sword cutting the heads off my enemies and I was really looking forward to that right and all of a sudden they
pulled the rug out from under me I was not exonerated so my innocence was harvested my innocence was harvested
because of what did to my family and my marriage and my life um but that pales in comparison obviously to the Innocence
that was Harvest from the 3 eight-year-olds the their their parents and grandparents and family uh and
siblings and it's horrible and I lost a child myself a couple of years ago it'll
be 3 years in October an adult child and I just got a phone call one day and says
your son's dead and so suddenly I'm in the club and and it's a club you don't want to be in and so I actually went
back um and poured the rough draft of the book through that filter of being the parent of a deceased child and and I
think it helped the tone and the particularly the ending of the book and then my also my wife lost her second
born uh who was 39 years old it um it changed things uh you look through it through a
different set of glasses than you did before so and also it harvested the innocence of the West Memphis 3 and
their parents and their families I used to have nightmares of going to jail for something I didn't do and of course I
knew why I was having the nightmares but uh it didn't make it any more pleasant uh it was tough didn't deal with the
stress appropriately of losing a child so I understand understand better their situation two of the three sets
appearance ended up on our team at the end um which was um certainly feather in our cap why would we give up a case that
we were going to win that's been the thing that's been bugging me for the last 10 years I decided uh I say I
decided Tom McCarthy my co-author uh who who eventually fell in love with the with the title he um and I agreed to to
tell the story differently than it's ever been told MH there's two reasons for that cuz number one it's it's never
been told with this sort of uh narrative and second it's the truth it it's the truth that's never been told so people
who choose to go out and buy Harvest of innocence and read it they're going to be shocked especially if they've kept up
with the case over the years or their newbies who weren't even born yet that's our highest audience uh on Facebook is
18 to 30y old old who weren't even bornn yet when when this happened so everybody
says the the OJ trial was the trial of the century and I disagree of course I'm a little bit biased this case has never
ever been on the headlines for the last 31 years yeah and I don't know that it's
that it goes away unfortunately no I I I agree I agree completely and um there's
so many things similar to what happened in Salem Massachusetts and and I mean it
happened almost exactly a hundred years apart and here we are still burning witches at the state in
1993 um and we continue to do that because people can't wrap their minds around what a false confession is and um
that was my biggest enemy besides the judge and the prosecutor themselves um who prosecutors are all about winning
good prosecutor is interested in justice but a right but a bad prosecutor is winning at all cost I guess that's why
I've always been been a defense attorney um and you know I was afraid when I ran for
judge that uh people were going to be afraid of former public defender being a judge they thought I was going to turn
everybody loose but I call them as I see them just like an Umpire in a ball game
that's a bad metaphor I suppose but but uh it's the truth I'm glad I waited those 10 years not just for the sake of
the West Memphis 3 but I needed that 10 years to let all this soak in and read the transcripts of the rule 37 hearings
which I was excluded from because I was a witness and was not allowed to be in the courtroom I knew you know in a basic
format because of they provided affidavits of what the Witnesses were going to testify to but there were
things that shocked me in those transcripts that uh made me start asking questions and that I wanted the answer
to but nobody wanted to talk about it right it's like hey we we got out of this with and saved face we got off the
boat before it sunk back to the narrative that we chose for the book we chose the Titanic is the best example in
the Titanic the movie starts out with um recovery vessel or the the vessel that was sending the subd down to the wreck
for the first time and one of the very few survivors left at the time and then the story morphed into her telling her
story sort of the background which was compelling I thought that's what we need to do and it took me a while to convince
Tom of that but I didn't want you know Mar's book which was outstanding and um Devil's not and um I keep expecting my
thank you card from her cuz she selling a lot of books these days because of my book my book kind of comes in and
finishes the story and all those things that I couldn't tell Mar about or and all the things that I couldn't tell the
documentarians about you know I'm sure they're not happy with me because um you don't want to call the 800 lb gorilla uh
names or poke him with a stick uh and expect them to later rule in your favor on a case that you've sworn to overt and
so I couldn't write the book I couldn't tell the documentarians about the what I knew because I had to depend on
the Arkansas Supreme Court to do the right thing and ultimately they did and it wasn't a coincidence that judge
Bernett was finally off the case and happened months later that they overturned his decision and send it back
for consideration for a new trial which we were going to get not just because of
my inexperience as a lawyer in 1993 and 1994 when the trial was held but because
judge had committed some ethical violations and he should have recused himself from the case but refused so we
were going to win on that issue alone so I started digging and um trying to figure out how this all came about it
took years trying to convince people to talk about it some of them wanted to talk about it but wouldn't for political
reasons some of them knew why but wouldn't tell me on the record because they were afraid that they wouldn't be
able to work in in our baileywick here in Northeast Arkansas and I understand that because I I've had the same
feelings for for years you know I wanted to talk about these things but I thought
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if you would have went down that road I mean you have the fiduciary duty to keep
your client's best interest at at heart in mind at all times and that was my Guiding Light through throughout and and
had you gone down that road you would have been no better than the prosecutor who was just looking for a win and and
Bernett who decided that this was his his case and this was good and wanted things his way and so I applaud you for
doing that Bernett was a prosecutor before he was a Circuit Judge but he never forgot he was a prosecutor one of
the Legends I learned as of early on is uh I don't know if it's true if it was a
myth or what it was but it certainly circulated prolifically uh was that one time a prominent lawyer from Jonesboro
uh during a jury trial in a criminal case said judge why don't you and the prosecutors wear jerseys with your names
on the back so there won't be any confusion on the part of the jury that you're on the same team and and that's
pretty much the way it was throughout our trial as well I'm glad that you mentioned Mar leverett's book The
Devil's not because I was telling somebody the other day that it's the the it's so sad that this is a true story
because her book's almost a perfect book A A Perfect Crime mystery book and then
there's been no shortage of books to come out about this case over the years but so many of them
are largely opinionated pieces biased and mythological yeah and then your book comes out and the reason why I was so
excited about your book was knowing that you are an officer of the court that you
would be holding yourself to a a different standard than those other books that were coming out and I knew
when when I got the opportunity to read it that I better keep my eyeballs open and be paying attention at all times
because the information in those pages is going to be far superior to that than books that have come out since we've
self-published and the reason that we self-published is we spent a couple of years shopping this thing around
Publishers and their response was always H this story's been told and several books and four documentaries and a
feature film and one of the things that people don't understand or realize that I didn't feel like I needed to put it in
the book uh and well maybe I did I don't remember I worked on that thing so many
times and read it a million times that sometimes I'm surprised when someone asked me about paage such and such and I
said oh well yeah I did say that didn't I but but um I actually turned down potentially
$100,000 for not being uh in Devil's KN as the main character um because I didn't want to be a part of a horror
flick and I wanted to retain my story right so I could write this book so one of the myths surrounding this case is
that I'm a millionaire that HBO paid me millions of dollars to participate in those documentaries I'm just the average
Joe I work paycheck to paycheck and hope I got enough money at the end of the month to pay the bills which reminds me
today's the third and my house payment was due on the 1 and that that kind of stuff really gigs me because I mean it
just it's ridiculous I I never made a nickel yeah other than what the court paid me and and they didn't even pay you
what they said they were going to pay you no judge brette said you're going to get paid $40 an hour for you know
investigation and and witness preparation and Discovery and things of that nature and then $60 an hour for in
court and we ended up not only getting was $19 and change $21.73 per hour to be exact I made a
note earlier today um and we had over 2,000 hours in the case more TW almost twice as much as
some of the other lawyers legal teams and we also received the least amount of all three legal teams I I feel like that
was out of spite oh it was I mean I agree completely and I asked judge brunett can you explain to me how you
came to these calculations and he refused to answer the question math is not his strong suit
but you know and it's funny because you know maybe not not so funny but people see people on TV and they just make this
assumption that that equals a lot of money and I've I've been fortunate enough to be a part of a few different
documentaries myself and you know I was going to say if your paycheck was anything like mine uh that I received
from those documentary we should just hold hands and feel bad for each other ask my kids about their student loan
payments they'll tell you ex exactly now this the the thing here though too that
I feel like this is one of those cases that and to say it's polarizing would be the understatement of the year but with
this case I think that it gets lost on some people that there are so many victims in this case but it really truly
starts with the three boys Chris Michael and Stevie sure and I really Lov the way
that you chose to start your book at the very beginning of the book I could feel
your anger when you said the Killer is alive today I am sure of it he had breakfast today maybe he checked his
mail went to work watched TV or took a drive he's been doing whatever he's been doing since May 5th 1993 tell us exactly
what that what that means to you and why you chose to to put those words on that
page cuz I'm still looking for a kill killer and I'll never stop looking until I I take my last breath and that sounds
Noble and maybe too Noble for some of those people who don't believe uh the innocence of the West Memphis 3 but uh I
always think about what Mark T wants Mark Twain once said never argue with a fool cuz onlookers will not be able to
tell the difference I choose not to engage people who don't have the intellectual capacity to understand
science and and facts um and uh and if people are upset about that then they can be upset send me an email uh knock
on my door or whatever uh but it's the truth if if you read my book and you don't come to the conclusion that these
three kids are inocent there's something wrong with you and I I know that sounds
harsh but uh after 30 something years of this these few people who some people refer to them as
nons some people um referred to them as the intellectually challenged I have referred to them as just a pain in my
ass um I hope I can say that on your podcast there's no sense arguing with them because you're never going to
convince them anyway so I just avoid them but you know my my goal is in writing the book which I have to answer
the narrative question a little bit with a little more detail I didn't go into Damian and and uh Jason's trial for a
reason because I wasn't their lawyer later on I became a ninja and was Jason's lawyer and in the bushes but um
I wanted to talk about the book is my story right and sometimes I felt like force Gump I just kind of happened to be
there when everything happened and the narrative is the same as Abraham Lincoln the movie and Titanic uh we all know the
the boat sank and thousands of people died and we know that President Lincoln got shot in Forge theater and and died
but while we're watching the films we're all praying and hoping to get up get out
of that bed and be president again we need you it was very important for me to not let the record be set with the
outred plea that nobody understands I wanted to tell the goals of my book were to a tell my story which is the least of
my goals for the book uh second I wanted to explain to everybody what a uh false
confession was and why Jesse misskelly gave one and if you actually look at the science involved then it's easy to see
but if you're not willing to look at it or understand it or even consider it then you're never going to understand
that but I didn't write it for money I wrote it because I wanted the truth to be out there I wanted people to really
have a true understanding in of what took place why it took place and the motives behind it I think you've earned
the right to be as harsh as you want I mean you've had to you've had to watch you've had to watch so many people be be
bullied and wronged for so long and it it's not just the the defendant that you represented and he and the other two
young men that were prosecuted as well but also Chris's Christopher's family and Michael's family and Stevie's family
and it's I mean you've you've had to have regular interaction with people that were wronged and bullied for so
long I don't know to be frank with you I think you're overly polite I don't you know you
you're you're incredibly polite for for having to endure that for so long well as I've stated at the at the beginning
of the book um even though I've earned the right to be angry um I'm no longer angry because the the the truth is
coming out and uh there's an old saying and I can't remember it and I shouldn't be trying to say something I can't
remember but uh the truth starts out is something that is uh people are angry about and won't accept and then it
eventually is accepted as the truth and that's kind of what took place here to give an example of of why I I think it's
funny that some of these people just won't come off of the not believing their innocence uh one silly person uh
on Amazon wrote very harsh um review that I didn't even talk about a Bible confession or I didn't talk about this
or I didn't talk about that I can't even remember them and I addressed each and every one of them yeah the person
couldn't have read the book you absolutely address the Bible confession the state of Arkansas would love nothing
better than this thing to go away and I would be damned if I would let that happen without a true accounting of of
the story well and they they they clearly don't I mean obviously in any case the state Arkansas Texas Ohio what
have you no state would want to compensate but they don't want to compensate these three men for spending
18 years in prison well that they offer will always be there so that'll that means no compensation but they deserve
exoneration yep and uh Jason Baldwin would like to go to law school but he can't because he's a convicted felon and
he could go and get his decree but they' never be able to practice law they probably can't vote own a firearm a few
different I would think there would be a few different restrictions on them well
he told me not too long ago that he doesn't go out of the country anymore because every time he gets strip
searched and cavity searched and and um feels like he's in prison again he's stained for the rest of his life yeah
and and um which reminds me I owe him a phone call he and I've been playing phone tag
for the last week or so um well and and he's somebody that I would love to talk to because I know that like and you put
it pointed out so clearly in concisely in your book and I appreciated this because that Alfred was an All or
Nothing deal it was all three of you say yes or all three of you you know one no
in the group and we're not doing this thing and like you said earlier Jason he had the least amount to gain and the and
and the most to lose by agreeing to that plea deal and I I would I would love to
hear it from him exactly and I can't speak for him but I did interview him and he provided some great information
some of which I wasn't even aware of uh because I I wasn't at his trial nor did I represent him and I explained how I
did that in the book because his lawyers had abandoned him and I couldn't stand to see him not be on board the train
that led to uh hopefully exoneration someday um maybe the governor who's going to Pardon them is in junior high
right now I don't know but uh I may not be around when when that happens but eventually it's going to happen because
somebody's going to do the right thing well and I want to tell the people out there listening I've here was my
takeaway from the book I've read just about everything I can get my hands on about this case I've watched listened to
just about everything that I could get my hands on about this case over the years I pick up your book and I as I
said earlier I was excited because of your position you being an officer of the court I knew that it was going to be
I was expecting a different a higher standard and you certainly delivered on that like your word I I can take you for
your word where these other opinion pieces I can't because I don't know who those people or are or their background
or how much time they've actually spent looking at the case so I was excited for
the book to come out and I one thing I do when I'm reading these true crime books just by the nature of my job by
hosting the show is I take notes and usually I'm only going to write down something if it's new information to me
or expanded information to me and your book I I have a note here to mention 97 notes I made wow uh from your book and
so and I this is what I I I want everybody to understand this book is for people that think that the West Memphis
3 are guilty this is for the people that think that they're innocent most importantly this is for the people that
sit on the fence that can't decide are they guilty are they innocent this is the this is the the eyeopener the way
that you delivered it and what you witnessed and the back door dealings and behindth scenes stuff that is explained
in your book Paradise Lost was an entertaining show right there's there's not a whole lot of concrete
information in those documentaries to really sway somebody one way or the other in my opinion it was a setting on
the fence narrative and it was but it was good and it was necessary and we we probably only ended up at this
result because of paradise L you and I wouldn't be having this conversation right now exact been for that well and
and you know what frankly I I didn't want to be rude earlier but uh judge Bernett would not have had to agree to
pay $40 an hour for you to investigate the case if West Memphis PD would have done a good job investigating the
case I want the listeners to know that a lot of the stuff that we're talking about here today is not you know we're
kind of jumping in and out of the book so don't walk away from this conversation thinking that you don't
need to this is an absolute must read so let me hit some things that are not in the book here if you allow me to D all
right one thing that you know and you you do touch on this a little bit but I want to get I want to get your manto man
answer here representing a teenager defendant certainly has to present its own unique set of challenges for a
defense attorney so what challenges did you have representing 17 year-old Jesse Melly the
best way to describe that is it's like not having a client at all no assistance from your client no he uh he didn't even
know what a lawyer was he thought we were cops he tried desperate to tell the the same story that he told the West
Memphis Police to us but he would get things so wrong and of course the confession itself is so ridiculous I
mean the the time that it happened uh and um they were tied up with a big brown rope and the boys skipped school
that day and so did Jason Baldwin none of that was even possible it didn't happen that way but the cops just keep
on going on on like you know nothing ever happened just you know so what he's telling us that things that are aren't
aren't true but um uh they acted like they didn't care and at one point mentally handicapped or not if you have
to ask a 17-year-old boy what a penis is that should be telling you that you're dealing with somebody who's
intellectually challenged they had to ask him if he knew how to tell time and then and that's another great um U
something that you know do not and and at no point do they go at no point do they go all right we have to ask this
guy does he know how to tell time oh wait maybe we should stop this interview because it's kind of pointless at this
point right if you have to ask a 17-year-old if they know how to tell time and imagine the frustration of
these officers uh who spent the the better part of 12 hours uh it wasn't the 12th hour that he
gave the first confession you know what this is one thing that intrigued me so I
I think Dan that I'm not going to lie to you I struggled with this case and yes there's so many obvious signs that
they're Innocent but there's also there are some gray areas and question marks and and and you will agree that it is
difficult for a lot of people to get over the fact that somebody may have offered up a false confession to
something so heinous and multiple false confessions to something so heinous it it it is hard for a lot of persons to
get over that and and I'm in that camp but one of the one of the things for me trying to play detective from a thousand
miles away was was that confession and when he mentioned noon the time of noon I believe and I I think it might have
been Mara leverett's book Devil's not where she's talking about she you know she's so in depth with the timeline of
everything and the movements of everybody on in early May and then in early June I think that it she says in
her book and you know Jesse Miss Kelly better than most so correct me if I'm wrong was he working his roofing job the
day that the boys were found he did but at noon he decided he didn't like it it wasn't any fun so he didn't go back
after lunch and he here has always been my thought my thought on Jesse's perception of everything I think that
when he was leaving the roofing job that day that he heard on the radio that the
boys had been found or saw the news shortly later at sometime later that day and I think that
he thought he was giving the police the correct answer because he I think he thinks that that's when they truly were
killed no he told it's in the officer's notes that he he told him at first he he
thinks Damian did it but but there actually the next day that the bodies were found right uh now in relationship
to the the confession was about a month later but but uh yeah me the you're right in in the confession everything's
so wrong the officers just acted like you know so what we got a confession and then I wish all these years one of the
things I wished I could have been there when it happened is when John fogman walked over to the police station in
West Memphis and either listened to the confession tape which was only like 29 minutes long I believe yep get back in
there and fix this this this couldn't have happened this way I'm just guessing that's what he said I don't but he sent
him back in and gel walks back in the interrogation room and he says now Jess you told me earlier this happened at 5
or 6 is it 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 and of course what does someone who has Mr what do they say they say what their
interrogator wants them to say and he said seven or eight so when you can hear the gasp in in gel's voice like finally
okay that and I think he actually said on the transcript well that clears that up then and then it's pretty much over I
think it was 12 12 minutes and not not that it it excuses any of that poor police work but do you think as somebody
who's met these individuals had conversations with these individuals do you think that that any of their actions
were they done out of desperation or do you think they really thought deep down that they were doing the right thing
that is a very good question and I did address that briefly probably one or two sentences in the book and I
said essentially I can't quote exactly what I said um but I I said you know the satanic Panic was very real and palpable
and I can give you a couple examples here in a moment but and in the in the book I said you know once it became
apparent and obvious and clear that these kids were innocent they could have just said hey we screwed up uh we're
going to let you out of jail we're going to have a new trial we're going to do something to fix this but what do they
do they dig in deeper even if they were Spellbound that's a bad metaphor for a Witch Hunt right right
but uh it even if they thought in their heart of hearts as fogman once told me we got I think we got the right guys and
even if they believe that once the wheels fell off the wagon they they didn't give up they just kept digging in
deeper because they didn't want egg on their face and that's where it turns from you know uh I'm sorry I made a
mistake to damn I got to make sure this doesn't come out and that's why I wrote the book because I was not going to let
this this true story and let let um the documentaries or Burnett's version or uh
Brent Davis's version be the final version because um and I think I quote Churchill in the book I Churchill said
that history will be kind to him because he intends to write it and so I kind of
took that to heart you know somebody wants to write a book and claim I'm mentally ill or whatever that's their
prerogative I but I had to tell the truth and I had to do it in such a way that it didn't pose a risk uh to my
clients or the other two well and you getting the phone call to represent Jesse Miss Kelly one thing that people
need to truly understand here is you didn't have to take that case you had and not only did you not have to take
that case you could have said no you had other irons in the fire at the time you
were busy practicing law and getting your career going and and I mean you were busy with other things and I'm sure
that yes you know the young man the fighter and you wanted to take the case but I'm going to ask you for a second
you know we talked about the challenges the unique challenges of representing somebody like 17-year-old
Jesse mkelly what would be your perceived a from from someone who's worked as a defense attorney for so many
years what would be your perceived challenges when it would come to representing somebody like Damen Eckles
wow um you know of course Damian did go through a metamorphosis of uh being someone
who naively believed that he couldn't be convicted because he was innocent and flipping off the TV cameras and the
victim's parents and news media the local media uh would not show on television the parents calling Damian
names and and spurring him on and then he would just react by flipping the bird or uh saying something stupid that was
news that's how they created news um Damian had no idea no concept that that was going to affect his trial and his
lawyers probably had about the same success keeping him under control as I did Jesse mkelly Senor who just
continued to screw up our case um and uh of course this will blow your mind and probably everyone else who's listening
but at first I thought he was guilty it took me 90 days into the case for me to realize oh [ __ ] uh this there's
something wrong here bad wrong and then we switch from you know how are we going
to get this kid to testify against the other two to how are we're going to defend an innocent client and there's
nothing worse for a defense lawyer than to have an innocent client so U that's the problem with being a criminal
defense lawyer is you cannot control the narrative and and echles it it certainly
to me and I've met personalities similar I believe in my my life of the defiant till the end types he certainly like you
said and and this is one thing that I struggled with in this case was some of the his statements that he made was like
my God man don't you realize you're on trial here and and you're saying you're saying that you're you you're fine with
people in West Memphis thinking you're the Boogeyman and like you said flipping the bird and but but it's it it's very
much like another very famous trial where on the news all we got to see was Michael Jackson Standing On Top of the
car on top of the limousine and everybody cheering him on what we didn't hear or see was the persons in court his
accusers in saying what they're accusing him of you know you only got to see that
those those moments in and in like the things that eeko was saying and doing in the spotlight and in front of the
cameras they weren't showing what happened what happened 10 seconds prior or what went down 10 seconds after you
only got to see the bad guy there's your bad guy he's on camera and this is a guy
that we're going to convict now I I would guess and I think you'll agree with me that out of the three Jason
Baldwin would probably have been the easiest to represent as I think he would be more of the type of you could tell
him how to act and behave and he would probably fall in line with that no he did exactly what his lawyers told him to
do and and it's really a shame that he I always thought it was was terrible that
that he had to sit through because really it was the trial of Damen Eckles and the but the two of them are sitting
there together at the table and it's kind of like well if they convict Eckles you're going too buddy and this is I
guess another this phrase is overused but it's oxymoronic for Jason's lawyers and their
efforts to get a separate trial neutered themselves and wouldn't say the magic words we have antagonistic defenses and
at one point during a pre-trial hearing this is not in the book but I actually elbowed one of them in the ribs and said
for God's sake say it MH why do you want to be tried with echles and of course there was no response and so then they
had the audacity to argue in closing that Jason's only here because it's guilt by association you wouldn't have
that problem if You' have had your own trial especially if you could have got your trial scheduled before Eckles and
then as I understand it they had just watched my trial 3 weeks earlier and they couldn't have helped but notice
that I put in lesser included offenses in the jury in instructions and wanted judge brunette to put it all give me an
instruction on manslaughter which he wouldn't do but I got him down to second degree murder and the jury convicted him
on two counts of second degree murder and they just watched me do that and they they went all or nothing and on
capital murder and of course for the jury to find Jason guilty which they had to do because a satanic Panic he got
life without parole so they def they wouldn't give him a separate trial when all they had to do was say the magic
words then they said he shouldn't be held Guilty By Association but they put him in the same room with Damian uh in
his Antics um which he's now very repetive of I just find it crazy that that that's the way they did it it is
what it is it's not the way I would have done it and they just seen me do it with
some success I mean I he did not get convicted my client even though he he was the one who confessed if you want to
call it a confession but um I call it nonsense but uh you want to believe that it's a confession how come he didn't get
convicted of capital murder so if you give the jury options then that gives you options and it
spared my client from the death penalty West Memphis West Memphis Damen Eckles and Jason Baldwin Jesse
Miss Kelly West Memphis [Music] 3 they were just 8 years old Steven Branch Michael Moore and Christopher
buers found murdered hog hied and naked in a drainage dit in West Memphis West Memphis
[Music] 3 the state stands behind the [Music] conviction West Memphis 3 West Memphis 3
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West Memphis 3 /// A Harvest of Innocence

Part 1 of 2

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After taking a listen once again to our West Memphis 3 case coverage from 2016 we have decided to revisit the case and get some additional thoughts from a perspective not yet heard on TCG. Today we welcomed in Dan Stidham, the Defense Attorney for Jesse Misskelley Jr. Mr. Stidham represented Jesse for many years and at some points was assisting Jason Baldwin as well. He has since gone on to become a highly respected Judge in Arkansas. While he is not a fan of the Alford plea, he remains one of the key figures in this case that helped the West Memphis 3 to finally get released from prison after serving 18 years.

This week’s recommended reading is - A Harvest of Innocence; the untold story of the West Memphis Three murder case by Dan Stidham

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Brief Summary

Dan Stum discusses the West Memphis 3 case, his legal journey, and the impact of wrongful convictions in this revealing episode.

Key points

June's Journey: A Thrilling Murder Mystery. Immerse yourself in a captivating mobile game where you help June Parker uncover hidden clues.
The West Memphis 3 Case. A deep dive into the infamous case that changed lives forever, featuring insights from a key attorney.
A Harvest of Innocence. Explore the emotional journey of a judge turned author reflecting on a controversial case.
A Personal Journey. The speaker shares their personal commitment to seeking justice for the victims, stating they'll never stop looking.
The Truth About the Case. The speaker emphasizes the importance of revealing the truth behind the case, despite public skepticism.
The Book's Purpose. This book is for everyone—guilty, innocent, or undecided about the West Memphis 3.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

My life changed forever on May 7th, 1993.

4:47WatchMay 8, 2024

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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