The Forgotten WM3 /// Part 1 /// 386 | Forensic Files

foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] welcome to True crab garage wherever you are whatever you're doing thanks for
listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man with a closet full of
guns and a freezer full of meat but he's fresh out of toilet paper he is the captain no poo poo paper for you my
friend it's good to be seen and good to see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend
[Music] this week we are very very excited to be featuring one of my favorite beers we
have featured this before but there is great cause to bring it back ladies and gentlemen trumpets please five out of
five bottle caps for dortmunder gold from my friends at the Great Lakes Brewing Company this is an award-winning
Flagship logger that now as of just this month is available in a beautiful 12 ounce and 16 ounce cans
my how we have come a long way and today we are toasting with one of our favorites to some of our favorites first
up cheers to Amber and Humble Texas Amber says the beer that she's buying that she's providing to the Beer fun
Captain is for you because of your awesome takedown of Scott Peterson the cheating Turtle yeah Scott
piece of [ __ ] Peterson and a big shout out to Christy in Melbourne Australia next up we have
Jennifer in Salem New Hampshire and a big shout out to Lori in Dallas Texas next up we have Emily in Chicago and
last but certainly not least a big cheers and thank you to Catherine in Orlando Florida everyone we just
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and for that we thank you yeah we thank you and thanks for joining us we know it's tough times
[Music] tough here in the garage keep your distance keep your distance kernel or I'll sock
you in the mouth and that's enough of the business all right everybody gather round at a safe distance grab it too
close grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music] foreign [Music] the murders of Stevie Branch Christopher
Byers and Michael Moore all just eight-year-olds was the Genesis of a triple homicide
case that is typically known today as The West Memphis Three however the phrase West Memphis 3 refers
to the three teenagers convicted of killing the three little boys on May 5th 1993 in a town west of
Memphis and appropriately named West Memphis Arkansas the three eight-year-old boys were
reported missing initial police searches that night were limited a more thorough search for the boys
began the next morning at 8 am after 1 pm the boys were found but not to a good end
all were dead found submerged in muddy creek water each boy had been stripped and what has
been commonly referred to as hogtie each with shoelaces belonging to the boys the drainage ditch contained two of the
children's bikes and the clothing that the boys were wearing when last seen alive
the clothing was mostly turned inside out and twisted around sticks and stuck in the mud below the surface water
the Frank Peretti autopsies indicated that Christopher died from multiple injuries and possibly bled to death
Stevie and Michael died from multiple injuries and drowning they were murdered the bodies and evidence concealed in the
Muddy Waters located in a small patch of woods known as Robin Hood Hills almost one month later
on June 3rd at 2 44 in the afternoon detective Brian Ridge and inspector Gary gitchel got 17 year old Jesse Miss Kelly
to confess to being involved in the murders the confession filled with inconsistencies errors and statements
that go against some of the very basic known facts of this case Jesse implicated 16 year old Jason
Baldwin an 18 year old Damian Eckles as the assailants rapist and murderers the three boys
the next morning at a press conference announcing the arrest of the three teenagers inspector
gitchel was asked by a reporter on a scale of one to ten how solid do you feel your case is
Mitchell smiled and replied 11. legendary FBI profiler John Douglas later called this moment that Golden
Nugget of law enforcement theater in 1994 the three teens were convicted of the murders
David Burnett was the presiding judge Damien Eccles was sentenced to death Jason Baldwin was sentenced to life
imprisonment and in a separate trial Jesse Miss Kelly Jr was sentenced to life in prison plus two
20-year sentences the HBO documentary Paradise Lost the Child Murders At Robinhood Hills
documented the case in the two trials the now famous film which was followed by Parts two and three
inspired Justice Advocates to unite and take action an army was formed men and women some of them celebrities
some of them from far away all United for one common cause free The West Memphis Three
but if the West Memphis Three were innocent then who committed the murders many after watching the documentaries
grew suspicious regarding two of the parents Christopher's adoptive father John Mark
Byers and Stevie Branch's stepfather Terry Hobbs both look guilty for different reasons
following a successful decision regarding newly produced DNA evidence The West Memphis Three negotiated a plea
bargain with prosecutors in August of 2011 they entered Alfred please which allowed them to assert
their innocence while acknowledging that the prosecutors had enough evidence to convict them
after having served 18 years and 78 days in prison Judge David laser accepted the
police and sentenced the three to time served and they were released in a packed courtroom judge laser spoke
from the bench quote I am aware of the controversy that's existed I'm aware of the involvement of the
people in this case I don't think it will make the pain go away to the victim families
I don't think it will take away a minute of the 18 years that these three young men served in the Arkansas Department of
Corrections what I just described is tragedy on all sides and I commend the people in the case
that have assisted toward the end of seeing the justices served to the best that we can do
it took nearly 20 years to write just some of the many wrongs in this case but somewhere along the way of this long
journey that took the Valiant efforts of so many something was lost and almost forgotten
the three little boys that were killed and lost their lives that day the families of these three will never
get them back so this is not the best we can do because there's still time to get
Justice for Stevie Christopher and Michael the Forgotten West Memphis Three [Music]
foreign [Music] [Music] Bob how much did Paradise Lost one two and three play a part into your look
into the case was it any type of inspiration for selecting this case uh take us into to the Bob Ruff World a
little bit on why you chose the West Memphis Three yeah you know it's funny because
Paradise Lost the entire Trilogy did play a big role in why I selected the case for truth and justice but in a
weird kind of way um you know I would I I study wrongful conviction cases because that's what I
do for a living right so it's um I always go into these big famous ones and study them just to look for you
know patterns and things to look for because we get we get hundreds of cases every month submitted to us to look at
and so I like to see you know what you know is there a jailhouse Niche involved you know there's is there not much
physical evidence is there you know a potential wrongful or uh false false confession there's a lot of little
patterns that happen so I was just watching the documentaries just to get an idea of what the case was about and
what inspired me actually to to cover the case on truth and Justice was actually the fact that after I watched
the series and I was trying to talk to to Mike my producer and and co-host about it I couldn't remember the names
of the victims and and and it bugged me a lot and I really started to think about it and I
started to look you know to do a little more Googling and things and I just found that
all of the media attention always focused Around The West Memphis Three you know
Damien Jason and Jesse and and our show we try to be very victim-centric you know and based on the victims not only
you know to try to give them a voice but at the same time that is you know critical to any real investigation
should always start with a very thorough study of victimology to help develop a profile and it just seemed like that was
never done in this case and certainly in the media you know while those documentaries were amazing and so was
west of Memphis and and they accomplished an amazing goal of freeing The West Memphis Three that never would
have happened without them they I didn't feel like there was enough Justice given to the victims and that's
why we you know we named our our season five on the podcast and the TV series The Forgotten West Memphis Three because
they seem to have gotten lost in a lot of the shuffle what do you think you learn by studying
these three victims well the biggest thing that I learned by studying them is that my perception and
the perception of I'll say casual observers of the case because there are certainly people that
have been digging into like documents for for decades now but but the general consensus always seem to be that there
were three boys who were just out playing having a great afternoon and then they
ended up kind of stumbling into however they were killed uh you know and of course back in the 90s with the satanic
Panic they assumed they stumbled into a Satanic ritual killing but then then later it became they stumbled into
something else or they look at like the the Bojangles man or you know maybe it was some you know some transient trucker
or somebody uh but what I found when I studied the victimology I was shocked and we spent I think three full hour
episodes going through the 140 page door-to-door notes in the case from the the canvassing after the bodies were
found and what I found when we start to piece all of those sidings together is that
the boys actually weren't together most of the day first of all you know you had
Stevie and Michael were together for a minute or for a little while and then Christopher was alone and then maybe
Christopher and Michael and Stevie was gone there's definitely a big gap in time when Stevie was was missing in
action when I was when I believe he actually returned to his house for a short time uh and you know and then they
they only became got together right before they went into the woods and then and then of course the revelation we
find in the notes that one of Chris's friends reported that that uh Chris straight told him that you know he was
upset because his daddy whipped him and that he was running away and so the the big I think the the thing that I learned
most was that these boys didn't stumble into anything they were running away from something and that dramatically
changes the course of the investigation now obviously you are covering this case
many many years after the fact but when the initial uh doc documentary was planned to do the first Paradise Lost
and they received permission to film or record both of the trials that were to take place the documentarians went in
there with the idea that these three teenagers were guilty like that was a juicy enough story in itself and then
once they're viewing the the trials they start hearing the evidence and and the uh eyewitness testimony and so on and so
forth and they start going well there's something that's not right here this this doesn't appear to be the actual
case and then of course Paradise Lost turns into almost this movement to try to free The
West Memphis Three when you went into this and of course we understand it was years later but did you go into it with
with the idea of okay these guys are completely innocent or maybe Mark Byers had something to do with this sir Terry
Hobbs or I mean did you go into this with anything uh prior thought uh of what knowledge you had of the case or
did you not really have an opinion of it at all until you started looking into it
oh I definitely had an opinion but I tried to yeah I tried to approach it from a
really unbiased perspective because now you both of you guys I I know um uh definitely Captain I don't know
Nick were you were you a big Fan's not the right word but were you really interested in the case for for
years to come or was that more just Captain's thing yeah I mean it's always been one of my uh pet cases I guess it's
it's one that's so easy to get sucked into um and actually just knowing that we were going to talk today
pulled me right back in I mean it's one of the most fascinating cases out there right it really is so when you watch and
and I guess I'll I'll ask uh you and Captain because I wanna I wanna know if I'm alone in this
after you watched if you watch them in order after you watch part two of The Paradise Lost series
who did you think was probably the most likely suspect so that's what's so interesting to me
about Paradise one and two is and I might have had a different opinion after watching the first one than maybe most I
watched that first one on HBO when I was a kid I don't know how many times and I
always walked away from the first one going you know what I actually think these three teenagers did it and then of
course you watch Paradise Lost two and it looks like Mark Byers he just time and time again comes up
looking guilty and more guilty and that he was the one that did it and of course
he's also this large loud imposing man uh he's also an authority figure to Chris and the other boys as well
he might know the area I mean there's just so many reasons why you can go all right well maybe maybe he looks good for
this right and that was exactly my experience I was born Captain do you have did you think the same after you
watched part two well after I watched part one my first thought was that I feel Jason Baldwin is very transparent
he's very believable in everything he's saying I I believe a hundred percent that he had nothing to
do with the crime than when you look at the confession with Jesse Miss Kelly it doesn't really
line up with what the crime actually was but I could never get over the boogeyman
comment from Damien Eccles oh yeah at the end at the end of part one he's like well now I'm going to be
known as like the boogeyman of West Memphis and kids are going to say well maybe Damien's under my bed or he's in
the closet and that to me didn't seem like something a innocent person would say oh for sure I mean really kind of
spot on with what you think happened when I watched part one I thought maybe they're innocent
um definitely I felt like Baldwin was innocent but Damien I wasn't so sure about and then after I watched part two
I was convinced that Mark Byers was that was the murderer I mean 100 I remember coming in because I watched these late
it was just three years ago I remember coming to the office and telling Mike I was like dude holy [ __ ] that that this
this guy this guy killed him the the adopted father killed him that he had his teeth removed and blah blah you know
all the different things from there I was convinced after part two that it was that it was Mark Byers and that's you
know that's kind of why I was you know when you asked if I had to kind of an opinion
That Swing from there then of course after three everybody thinks Terry Hobbs did it right you know that's that's kind
of what they left you with and then west of Memphis and so for me it was like okay I need to
approach this from a completely unbiased perspective because Joe Berlinger just just [ __ ] me up in three documentaries
in a row because you know I didn't watch them as it came out I watched all three
of them back to back over the course of a week and I watched you know based on the way
they were produced I went from thinking oh maybe they're guilty Jason's probably
innocent to oh my God it has to be Mark Byers it's obvious to part three he was like oh no it has to be Terry Hobbs it's
obvious I was like man if I'm being swayed that much by the media there's got to be a lot more to this case than
the way they're presenting it and so that that really led me into taking a completely unbiased approach and try to
look at the investigation which is what we did in season five when we covered through the uh The West Memphis Three is
to go all the way back to ground zero and just basically start a brand new investigation and see where it leads us
well I became a big fan of yours when you were covering cereal and I really like the approach that you
took there where you you had a thought process and then you kind of try to prove yourself wrong and I always I
always like taking that approach but to me West Memphis Three is very similar to
the addonside case where people look at the case and we are presented from these documentaries we're
presenting all these cast of characters and people always see like you said are the teenage boys
guilty yeah or is it one of this the stepfathers and everybody seems to have strong opinions of the characters that
are cast for us it seems like not too many people look outside that cast of characters and it it seems like there's
no new cast of characters in West Memphis Three in the last 20 years right well when you
see the uh I know we're recording this before you see the series um and you're airing it after
um but but hopefully you'll you won't have that opinion after this weekend because we have you know I hate to you
know it you're right in the term cast of characters I I don't you know it makes it seem like it's a story but one of the
things I want to do was get away from the The Sensational you know the cameras are always on Damien right and you know
through Paradise Lost it's Damien and John Mark Byers are are key characters and it's because they're the most
interesting right when you're watching it you know you you know Damien is saying things like well I'm gonna be the
boogeyman under their bed and Mark Byers is blowing up [ __ ] pumpkins and and you know
light and bonfires at the at the discovery site uh but there's there's a lot more
important characters I think that that you've never seen on on TV before you've never seen it in the
documentaries you've never seen it anywhere you know we have you know I don't know how you want you want me to
uh mention do you want me to spoil some of what's coming up since they're gonna hear it after or no well how about we
just since since it's going that route how about we just dive into some of the details of the case and get your opinion
on some of those okay question marks and if it comes up it comes up if it doesn't
we'll force you into it here at the end um sure I'd hate to spoil it too early in our discussion uh because we got a
lot of questions a lot of things on our mind it's rare for us we we think we know the case very well we covered it on
True Crime garage a long time ago um we it's way too big to cover it in in just a few episodes we tried in three
but all we really thought that we achieved was we pointed out a timeline that came from from very credible
sources and from police reports and and eyewitness statements and so on and so forth that seem to indicate that it
would have been very difficult almost impossible on the timeline for John Mark buyers to have
committed the crime especially by himself we we found a timeline that seemed to be that he was with somebody
else and and a whole different batch of people along the way pretty much most of
that evening and night so um I think the first thing and this is really good for people that don't know
the case very well um but but we're excited to get to talk to you because we feel you know this
case really well and that's why we want to get your opinions on these things but
for the people that don't know the case well one thing I think the public may have trouble grasping but they do need
to understand as it's very important to how things played out the way they did so
I think if you could kind of talk to this a little bit but we need to have an understanding of the level of poverty
here in regards to the three boys that were arrested for the murders and in regards to the lifestyle of the three
young victims because the the three that were arrested they were extremely poor unfortunately
and the three victims were a little more middle class um could you talk and expand on that a
bit yeah the what's interesting really is that a little more middle class I guess is a
good way to put it but the the entire you know Captain used the term cast of characters earlier and
if you look at it like that the entire cast of characters here they're all you know at the poverty line
or below the including the victims families you know you see you have definitely the the three convicted you
know they're they're living in very uh low low rent trailer parks you know and I've been out to these places they
haven't changed much since then um definitely on the lower income scale uh but but even the three the three
victims you know you had you know the the the buyers everybody was working they had jobs and they were getting by
but these people definitely weren't thriving and you had an interesting situation in just about every family you
know you had you know we had on our show we had Don Moore who's Michael Moore's sister who had never been interviewed
before and she was on the podcaster in season five and she gave us a whole new look into the uh the household of the
Moors right so their issue their scent seemed like it was alcoholism she said that you know both her mom and dad were
alcoholics it was an abusive situation and so that wasn't the you know the the picture I had when the studying
victimology of what that household looks like you know you go across the street to the buyer's household and you know
again they're getting by but they're they struggle a little bit financially and you have uh you you have some drug
addiction both on um Chris buyer's mother's part and his adoptive father and then you go down to the the Stevie
Branch's household the Hobbs household you know you did Pam and Pam and Terry were both working they seemed on the
surface to be the most stable but then we find out later that there's possibly allegedly some abuse that's going on
there and then also maybe some some drug use down there as well so you had nobody
was in nobody was in good shape so to speak as far as in their household either they're struggling financially
they're struggling struggling with substance of substance abuse or they're struggling with physical abuse in in all
these different communities but but most but definitely the three that were convicted uh Damien Jason and Jesse they
they were throwaways for sure and when I say that I mean that they were as you said they were extremely poor much more
so than the three victims and once they were targeted by police whether they actually believed they did it or if they
were in fact targeted that's up for speculation but once they were targeted there was there was nobody there to to
fight for them they didn't have any money they didn't have lawyers they just you know they were they were throwaways
there were people that I think the powers that be in in particularly the West Memphis Police Department thought
you know we can lock these people up close this case everybody's gonna be happy and no one really cares what
happened to these three kids well I'm back to one of the things you were saying before that when you're looking
at the victimology like you said it changes from here's these three boys hanging out and they
stumble upon something as you were saying you were getting into the idea that they're running from something uh
what evidence did you find could you find evidence to back that up yeah well I mean a a big part of it is
the fact that we we find some weird anomalies throughout the sightings of them throughout the day where they're
not together they disappear and then when you when you we study so let's look at at Stevie branch in particularly
Stevie was probably the most well-behaved of the three based on what we see from you know school reports you
know we had sounds like you know what we would call today Chris Byers and Michael
Moore both suffered from from ADHD which I can relate to I have a nine-year-old that has the same issue
um tend to be a little more mischievous but you know Stevie was a rule follower and he pretty much stayed out of trouble
and he was told that he needed to be home by you know before 30 4 45 um and and so you had to believe that
he's going to do his best to make that happen and then the sightings seem to indicate that that did happen you know
they disappeared and then you have there's some medical evidence that Stevie has partially digested green
vegetable like food in his stomach well that that can only occur for about an hour hour and a half before it moves
past that stage in the stomach which means somewhere along the lines he went and ate some vegetables which would be a
good indication that he he did go home but then he left again so then so then why is he leaving now we don't know but
it it seems like and then if you take Jamie Clark Ballard's statement which you know I don't necessarily think is
entirely credible but she she reports that she sees Terry yelling at him to to get back down there and and just the
fact that Stevie leaves again after dinner and then what we learn later in his victimology study that we have there
there has been reported abuse from uh his stepdad Terry Hobbs and that's come from some family members but also uh and
and people that I've interviewed outside of the family uh have have told us the same thing that you know that they were
always kind of afraid for Stevie because of some beatings that he would take from
Terry so so there's some indications with Stevie Christopher is easier because we he literally went to the
kid's name is Bobby Posey's house in the door-to-door notes and I've spoken with
Bobby Posey we hear from him in the TV series you know and and he he goes to tell Bobby that his daddy had just
whipped him and he's running away so there's no we don't have to speculate about if Chris Byers was running away
because he he told told his friends that he was running away we have other witnesses that we hear from in the TV
series that say that they saw them with sleeping bags heading towards the woods uh and and and Michael Moore was always
kind of the leader of the group there's not so much with him as far as direct evidence other than some things his
sister told us about you know the the situation in the household and and some potential abuse that could have been
happening in the household again that's according to her that's not verifiable so I would say alleged abuse that
happens in the household so all that together and then with the sightings that put them in different places at
different times and then kind of coming together and then going to a place where
where they know they're not supposed to be and the fact that Stevie would go there when he really knows he's supposed
to be at home at that point to me is those are all great indicators that they were running away from something they
weren't they weren't just in that that scary woods across the pipe just to play foreign
[Music] [Music] [Music] s was it Michael Moore that was known to be afraid of those woods uh Chris Byers
Chris Byers yeah yeah he was terrified of the woods according to his uh to Mark Byers and to
his brother who we also hear from in the TV series so what you're saying is it's
not just one of the victims that was quote unquote running away but possibly all three of them or
friends trying to help their friend out oh you're dead whooped you you can't take this anymore I'll help you out I'll
I'll run away with you yeah you know this is kind of somewhat speculation on my part but my theory is that it's kind
of a stand by me type of deal you know where the you were you know the kids are kind of rising up against the you know
the grown-ups and taking matters into their own hands I think that you know again this is my theory is that Chris
was fed up and running away I think that something I I think that Stevie I'll be
honest with you I think Stevie did go home and eat and I think that he left and he was scared and I think that
Michael more than likely was the one that said hey I because we have we have note in the door-to-door notes Michael
actually told the little girl that lived up near the pipe bridge that he's going
to go over to the other side of the bridge to the woods behind Mayflower to his secret hideout so I think I think
Michael becomes the kind of the Savior the leader that says you know these the the other two are they want to run away
and get away from their parents and and Michael says well here I can I know a spot let me lead the way and takes him
over there in John Mark Byers he he admits that he hit Chris that day that afternoon
um that he he disciplined him right yeah and then we have hold on I'm kind of trying to uh digest
all this as we as we go through this here so that's that's what I find very interesting at least about the the Robin
Hood Hills portion of it like do you believe that the boys were killed at Robin Hood Hills I mean from the autopsy
it appears that two of the boys drowned so of course two of them likely died there but
um this is a pretty brutal attack do you think that from the evidence that we see that you've reviewed anyway did
this all take place in Robin Hood Hills uh 100 I I don't think there's any there's a million theories out there uh
but after the thorough studying we've done of the case and the new team of experts we brought in for the TV series
it seems you know as a matter of fact uh Dr Rebecca shoe that was our new uh forensic pathologist that came in and
looked at the autopsy you know her determination was that that all three boys died of drowning
um that that you know there were some other injuries a couple of head injuries but basically all of the brutality that
we see on the boys was all postmortem animal activity that this was a this was not is is complicated as a crime as we
think but the the another big misconception is for people that and you know in one of our episodes I just
mentioned it's funny that my my perception of those woods and where the boy's bodies were found mostly came from
the the the movie adaptation of Merle Levert's book The Devil's not when we see the I'm sure you guys have probably
seen that right yeah yeah it's you know you know at the beginning when it shows them riding their bikes and they kind of
they go around the barrier and go into the woods and it shows them going through this remote Forest back to this
Creek in the middle of this huge Forest well that's where I thought this thing occurred the crime occurred but the
reality of it is this was a tiny little patch of woods about the size of a football field you can literally I've
done it I've stood there and done it stand in the backyard of a house on the other side of the Bayou and throw a rock
to the place where the boy's bodies were found I mean this crime occurred right in the
middle of there's a operating truck wash to the West there's a there's a major Interstate to the north to the South is
the Mayfair apartments and then there's a row of uh of houses with backyards to but right up to the Bayou
so the idea that this could have occurred anywhere besides there is is really in my opinion Preposterous
because that means I mean this is where the search efforts are focused right not
necessarily across the pipe but in the Robin Hood Woods just south of the Bayou south of the pipe some people were in
the woods north of the pipe where the bodies were actually found so the idea that if someone killed these boys or
captured them somewhere else and they need to either a hide the bodies or go you know take them somewhere else to
finally kill them that they would just the the place they would choose is this tiny little patch
of woods where the only way you can get to it is either to park on the highway and walk in to park at the truck wash
and walk in or walk across the pipe bridge in front of the Mayfair apartments carrying these bodies to
conceal them right in the heart of the search efforts is is is bananas there's just no way that would have happened I
think the only reason the boys bodies were concealed where they were found is because that's where the crime occurred
and once it happened I think that the individual and I do think it was a single individual once the boys were
dead they knew I've got to get I've got to hide these bodies and I need to create distance I've gotta I've gotta
I've got to make sure nobody finds these bodies at least long enough for me to get out of here and then appear to be
doing something else that's the only reason I think the bodies were concealed where they were is because there was no
other choice no one's going to choose that spot it's a terrible it couldn't be a worse place to choose to dispose of
body when that's where everybody's looking for those boys especially considering a mile down the road is the
Mississippi River there's a million places you could drop those bodies and they'd never be seen again so you're
saying and I and I hope I got this correct but you're talking about that there's evidence that Stevie ate
something before the crime occurred yeah so in the autopsy there is a notation that's the
other um so the boys from their parents reported that none of them had eaten since their meal in school their lunch
you know 11 12 o'clock in the afternoon or 12 o'clock well so Christopher and Michael's
stomach contents are empty which is what you would expect it takes you know there's a there's a range of time but
for you know active eight-year-old boys with healthy metabolisms the average is like an hour and a half to two hours it
takes for food to move you know to become digested and move out of the stomach or Lumen as it's as it's noted
in the autopsy into the intestines so Stevie they when they when they open up his stomach there's there's quite a bit
of what they call partially digested green vegetables in his stomach which means so he you know I believe that our
window of when the boys were killed is between 6 30 and 7 30 PM which would mean so on the front end of that 6 30 if
you go back hour and a half two hours that means that no later than no earlier than 4 30. Stevie had to have eaten some
vegetables and it could have been as late as as 5 30 6 o'clock even that he ate some vegetables do you think his
family members are just misremembering or do you think that's more nefarious on on stating he he never ate anything I
don't think it's nefarious on saying he never ate anything but but the issue is so he he leaves at 3 30 right with with
Michael Moore is when Michael comes down to get their bikes and go and so the issue is even if Pam Hobbs is or Pam
Hicks now is incorrect she says he didn't eat any snacks he didn't eat anything after school let's say she's
wrong and let's say he did he decided to eat some broccoli as a snack after school
that still because it's 3 30 is the time he leaves if he never returns Home Again
by 5 30 that's that food's gone from his stomach so even if she's wrong about that it still wouldn't be partially
digested in his stomach you know what I mean so so at some point he had to return so
I believe I'll say this that I'm very very confident in in stating I I 100 believe that Stevie Branch contrary to
what's been stated by his stepfather at the time Terry Hobbs I believe absolutely that he did at some point
after five o'clock return home and eat and then he left again now I don't I do not know if Terry was there and knows
that he did that so I'm not saying that Terry's lying in the fact that he said that he never returned home in eight I
don't know that but what I do know or I feel very confident in saying is that Stevie did in fact return home and eat
at some point and then leave again and In fairness to the victim's families it's my understanding that they weren't
properly interviewed from my understanding actually it may appear even in 1993 a couple of them
were not sat down and you know they didn't participate in a thorough interview oh that's 100 correct
and that's that's another part of why I decided to take the case because I feel like if we go back to the beginning and
do this thing right that maybe the answer's been there all along we do a proper investigation and that's why we
took it on the podcast and the TV series but as I mentioned you know that that starts with a proper investigation
starts with victimology and then you start with the people closest to the victims and you work your way out in
concentric circles that was never done in this case so Mark Myers was interviewed multiple times gave recorded
interviews but that was because he went to the police he he's the one that initiated that Pam Hobbs has spoken to a
couple times uh you know you have you have cursory conversations with with Dana Moore and
Melissa Byers uh Todd Moore was never interviewed by police and Terry Hobbs was never interviewed by police at all
not not like a little bit at all which which is which is baffling that they would and it's because they jumped to an
a a a conclusion they jump to an assumption when they when they saw the boys come out and they saw how mutilated
their bodies were which we now know was due to animal activity but back then they didn't know and they decided this
was that Satanic ritual killing they knew was coming Damien Nichols is is the kid that that would do something like
this then they got such tunnel vision that they never did the basic basic steps of a proper investigation
including not just not interviewing the family but in the door-to-door canvassing they never even went door to
door in Stevie Branch's neighborhood at all not as neighbors no one around there we
know now uh Pat we know now uh Captain had asked earlier about uh uh evidence indicating that
that they are actually running from something you know we know now that that Stevie was seen by a woman named Betty
Johnson on 16th Street riding his bike South that afternoon alone that's one of the reasons we know that he went home it
well the only reason we know that wasn't because of the West Memphis Police Department it was because of a newspaper
reporter that started knocking on doors in that area asking people if they had seen the boys and she said yeah I saw
Stevie by himself on his bike riding South on 16th Street that afternoon the police had no idea that happened because
they never asked anybody in the area tell me if I'm wrong about this but there's I've seen where there were
sightings of you know one boy two boys three boys on their bikes and possibly even four boys on their bikes
and a lot of people think that fourth boy could have been uh Vicki hutchison's son
right which I I don't believe that by the way but did you see any reports of of four
boys together yeah there were there were a few Point reports with four boys together as a matter of fact in our
timeline that we put together based on all those door-to-door notes I I showed that I called a mystery boy but they're
you know one of the big sightings was when Darlene Hollingsworth sees the boy and sees you know that she says she sees
three boys on bikes and so people think oh that's the West Memphis it's the three boys except for Chris didn't have
a bike especially not that time in the afternoon he wasn't on a bike so that third boy is actually a fourth
boy and she describes him as being heavy set with dark hair well that doesn't describe either of the
any of the three victims were all thin so so that siding along with a few others is who you know we deemed mystery
boy and you actually hear from you know we figured out who that was and actually
interviewed him on the the TV series who the mystery boy was um and then there's another you know
other sightings where there's four boys going into the woods right before they're killed
so there's another potential uh fourth boy but I don't think that it's I mean well for example for starters as I said
we we know who that fourth boy was now um but I've never believed it was it was um Aaron Hutchison because the the
evidence now it's been a little while you may know more about it than me now because it's been a couple years since
I've studied it but it seemed to be pretty clear that Aaron Hutchison went home that day after school he wasn't in
the and he didn't live in that neighborhood he lived out in the trailer park so he wasn't even around that
afternoon right and he gives dozens of different stories as to what he says he witnessed or saw
when he supposedly saw the kids being killed right which is it's it's awful what what the police did to that poor
boy you know what they put him through and I mean he he names different suspects in
each one of the stories too the the suspects don't even remain the same um and then he he says certain things
took place on the victims or to the victims that we know just by the the autopsies did not
did not occur at all regarding the timeline that you're piecing together one thing that's always stood out
is that Pam Hobbs uh you said now Pam now Pam Hicks her and Terry hobbs's timeline for that
night never really seemed to match up 100 percent we it's my understanding that Pam Hobbs
worked that evening and that Terry drove her to her place of employment and then
picked her up at the end of her shift right that evening with your with your movement of Stevie branch
do we have him leaving their house if he fact it did return to the Hobbs household do we have him leaving before
Pam goes off to work before Terry has to drive her to work no I don't think there's any question that he hadn't
returned yet uh before Pam went to work I mean that was is pretty obvious from you know from Pam statements herself
that you know she was upset because Stevie wasn't there that Terry was upset when he got home because Stevie wasn't
home when he was supposed to be they left and then she first finds out something had happened when Terry picks
her up from work I don't see any you know I'll say this I believe her 100 that that's what happened there's no
reason for her to to lie about that and and sadly we've all saw Pam's reaction which you found out what happened to
Stevie you know it was you know it was it was on you know the news it was on the paradise law series
um so yeah I I don't think Stevie I think that was the issue I think that personally this and again I'm I'm giving
you a theory here but I believe that Terry and Pam left to take Pam to work and Stevie probably ended up coming home
shortly thereafter you know kind of missed him and and then the question is did Terry ever come home then after he
dropped Pam off and and have some interaction or communication with Stevie or did Stevie leave again before Terry
got back now when you watch these documentaries and when you study the case which
and I'll I'll keep going with our theme of characters which character were you most interested in and
and what did you what do you think you learned by talking to them as a suspect or as a like a personality well not a
not as a suspect but just just anybody uh as far as the documentaries Go I mean like if I was you know I rewatched a
Paradise Lost one two and three recently and I'd go if if I could talk to anybody
I'd like to talk to uh Damien I like to talk to Terry Hobbs I would like to talk to Mark Byers those
are the first three individuals I'd I'd want to interview right yeah and I've interviewed all well I haven't
interviewed Terry but um I I don't know if I can if I can point one out but I guess I can walk through a
few of those like you mentioned so um Damien uh I really like Damien you know when I went to go meet him at first
and interview him I was I I shockingly I was or stupidly I guess I was surprised to find out that he's a
pretty normal guy you know because he's you know his his character so that we've seen on TV and
and kind of his character we see in his social media and stuff like that you know he's into this ceremonial magic
stuff which seems very Mystic and and very artsy but you know I've sat around talking about football Damien every
anytime I'm in New York I usually try to catch up with him and Lori and we'll go
off for pizza and you know last time we were there we went you know we went we went to a pizza place Damien's favorite
place we had pizza we hung out for a couple hours and then he he took me to a place called insomnia cookies because he
swear they had the best cookies in the world and they were the best cookies in the world uh and so I guess what was
interesting to find out with him is that he's he said Damien's a normal guy like
he's he he he's interested in something that a lot of people don't necessarily relate with which is you know his uh I
don't even call the faith of religion but his the serial ceremonial magic that he's that he's into
but you know regardless whether you can relate with that or not he's a very personal very normal guy doesn't like
talking about the case just likes just chatting about life and I I enjoy Damien's company whenever when I'm
around him um Jason Baldwin it's kind of surprised me the other way he seemed like very a
very much a vanilla kind of character but then when I when I went down and actually met with him and and you know
we went out to lunch and then interviewed in person he's he's full of fire actually we just I don't know if
you listen to it uh if either one of you guys did but we just aired two-part uh uh two episodes of an interview I did
with Jason back in 2018 that nobody had heard before and and he's he's got fire in his eyes
that I didn't know was there um he seems he seems extremely interested in finding out who actually
did this very much so of of the three where to me it feels like Damien is more involved with his causes uh I think he's
involved with the um the innocent people being on death row or I don't know the name of it offhand but
um he seems to be very driven toward that where Baldwin seems fully vested uh invested in
finding out who did this clearing his name and he's one of those people that I mean the interview is great but you know
the captain and I have always kind of thought this if Jason and Damien would have been tried separately and Jason
would have been tried first we find it very difficult that that they would have found him guilty a lot of that based off
of his character and his personality and of course that there just was no evidence but
um to hear your interviews with him really takes his character as you said to the extreme because he does seem very
vanilla on the surface but when he starts talking about the case or talking about
things that were going on in West Memphis at the time that they were charged with the crimes he's one he's
fascinating and two he's very dialed into what he was doing and I found his very detailed alibi
to be incredibly one interesting and Incredibly believable yeah I agree on all on all
counts I agree and especially the fact that if he wasn't tried with Damien I think he for sure would have been
acquitted you know he was he was uh he was collateral damage really well and I think that's one thing that gets lost in
the shuffle there is that we we have Jesse Miss Kelly who gives this this bad confession he's offered a bit of a
reduced sentence because they want him to testify against Baldwin and Eckles at trial one simply just to introduce the
confession to that trial he says look I'm not going to testify against them basically because it's not
true and then Baldwin gets the opportunity to testify against Eccles and he turns it down as well where
that shows something to the character of these still very young men these teenagers at the time
you know there's a lot of meta that you see in the documentaries when that part when the trial is happening in Paradise
Lost one and Baldwin's reaction to when uh when when his attorney I think was Paul Ford
asks him after Damien testified on camera he asked Jason so do you think that he's guilty
and if you watch that scene that scene right there is what convinced me that Jason Baldwin has no clue what actually
happened because you watched you could see it in his eyes that he was thinking and then I think his response was
you know I they sure made him seem like he did and it was like holy [ __ ] he really
doesn't know that kid does not know who killed those boys yeah he does not know and and he's thinking it through because
you see his it's almost his reaction you can read his mind and it's like he wasn't with Damon that that evening he
wasn't with Echols that writing so he doesn't he's he's kind of clueless as to he's not asked did you
in Eccles do this together he's just asked did Damien Eccles do this and he's going
well they sure made him look guilty you almost see that he is about to say well I don't know and I think he was smart
enough to go well they see they sure made him look guilty because that I don't know statement would have just
been a an odd one for for the argument against uh Damien anyway yeah and it just to me it was like I
could see you know for me I I would see in his mind him thinking Jesus Christ did he do it
like like maybe he did I don't know I wasn't with him you know maybe he did do it I don't know they made him seem like
he did but you know again like for me what you know what I'm looking at is not necessarily what that means for Damien
but what does it mean for Jason and it was like obviously he didn't have anything to do with it was it which
again is just one more thing that even if that was the case if it was just that Jason was innocent it just again tears
the stage case down their entire Theory down because it was supposed to be them together and the confession had all of
them together well and how did his how did Baldwin's Alibi Fall Apart because doesn't he claim to he he went
with with a different friend that's that's not really known to most the people that have taken a quick look at
the case he went with a different friend to uh cut his uncle's lawn and then I think I and correct me if I'm wrong
because I'm going off a memory here but I believe that he he and the friend went
and did something afterward and Baldwin is saying hey I remember this date because I sold him a cassette tape
um that day and that you know as we discussed already these kids are dirt poor he remembers that day because he
one he probably did a chore that may have earned him some money and if he didn't get paid from the uncle he had
he at the very least received some money for that cassette tape from his friend yeah the the friend that was with him
was uh Ken Watkins uh and I think the issue is that alibi was and I'm working for memory too on this part of it you
know because when I did the case and we I looked at okay if I take this investigation from the beginning and do
it properly where does it take us well the problem with that is it never takes you anywhere near the direction of the
West Memphis Three so we had to kind of force that in to go like okay well let's see how they got
here and why so I I've never really focused a whole lot on their trial since then but if if memory serves it had to
do with the fact that when they questioned Ken Watkins because you know because Jason says tells his lawyers that yeah I
was with Ken Watkins after the lawn mowing Damien left with domini and then Ken and I went to Walmart and we played
video games and then he said yeah you should there was an Asian kid there too you should ask him whose name ended up
being Don NAMM uh was the Asian kid that was there and he's like these guys can verify my alibi but then you know months
and months and months later when when Watkins and Nam get interviewed uh before trial they they don't confirm his
Alibi they don't remember it or they don't give the right information I don't remember the details exactly about it
but basically they didn't they didn't corroborate what what Jason had said so I don't think they ever ended up
testifying well just to play a little bit of a devil's advocate here after I watched Paradise Lost One
I started thinking well is is it as simple as they had Damian on a list and that's it
and they just went with this and this kid had long black hair listened to heavy metal and he's kind of a freak
Show and we believe that this was done by a freak Show or was there is there a little bit more to it like you said if
you if you investigate it properly then you're going through the proper channels but you're still going to have
a juvenile officer come forward and say look out of all the people in the town that I think possibly could have done
this here here's a kid's name on the list that you might want to look into yeah but the problem with that is that
like that's [ __ ] crazy I mean you know I mean imagine in your town there's a murder in the entire
investigation is based on some dude's hunch like oh I know a guy that would do this
you know it's crazy no but I I still think there that's reason to look into an individual and then when you hear
statements that this individual also which maybe he said it maybe he didn't you know at a at a a softball game
saying that he that he killed these two boys and that he's going to kill more or
two two more when uh before he was done yeah I I think it's it's reason to believe that you should look into this
individual I'll give you that I think that you know it if someone's got this hunch or at
least when that information comes forward like the softball information sure you look at them but then there's a
there's a there's a big chicken and egg problem with Damien too in the fact like
say say that statement if the softball whether it happened or not yeah I I tend to think that maybe some version of it
did happen uh but but it's because I think it's because you know he was in he was targeted he was interviewed within
hours of the boys being found he was harassed the police were asking all of his friends all of his family they were
calling him in repeatedly to the point where this rebellious teenager is like screw these guys you know and and so I
my opinion I think you know Damien says he doesn't really remember that happening and he says he certainly
wouldn't have confessed something he didn't do but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilities if he was at
a game or whatever there and you know somebody's like dude I heard that you did it and he's like oh yeah I did it I
killed them and I'm gonna kill some more similar to his Boogeyman comment um but certainly once
that you hear that that you heard this guy confess to it yeah you interview him but would he ever would any of that have
happened if they weren't offering rewards to a bunch of poor people and harassing Damien and spreading the word
around town that it was Damian who did it then would any of these statements have
ever come out I personally don't think they ever would have I think if they took this case and they and they said
and they they waited until they had the proper medical evaluation and said okay these kids were hit over the head
drowned and and buried there okay so that's that every indication there is that this is
someone with a known personal relationship with the boys the FBI was offering to help with profiling
so let's go interview and they should have already done so let's interview every single parent every brother every
neighbor and let's start let's start piecing things together and I think that if you
I'm dancing here but if I think that if you did that if you start at the center and work your way out very quickly the
person or people whose Alibis don't check out that aren't where they said they were that have unaccounted for time
and behavior would would have become very apparent very quickly we're in this mess we're in
now 27 years later because that was never done and if you do that I think that you never end up even
if some juvenile probation officer is like well I think that Damon Nichols was a Satanist well if you waited for the
proper evidence you know that there was nothing about this crime scene that indicated it was a Satanic ritual
whatsoever well and there was what's weird about that that statement of oh I heard Damian Echols say this at a
softball game or or whatever I think it was a Mara leverett's book The Devil's not where there's some some
evidence to suggest that even at times maybe investigators were going around town with a photograph of Damien Eccles
and they're asking individuals about the case if they know anything about the the
murders and they're also showing this Photograph that's almost implying that this man this boy is is in somehow
connected to the murders themselves and you can almost see a situation where because he knows he's being looked at
and he's being harassed during this whole time that that he's overheard discussing that with somebody and and
they misconstrue it completely and you point out something that's very very big here is the reward the all these people
are poor and now we got this money sitting on it on a table up for grabs if you have any information tell us and
let's put these put these devil worshipers Behind Bars and and here's your your your pot of gold
that that money was never officially paid out to anyone that we know of right it no one knows where it went
they've been able to keep that pretty pretty tight-lipped uh well yeah I might have went to Vicki Hutchinson who knows
um question for you you said something that I find very interesting a lot of people
that think that the West Memphis Three are guilty of this crime a lot of people will cite that well this
is a crime that couldn't have been done by one individual and you you stated earlier that you believe it was done by
a single individual what makes you believe that there there's a there's a lot of things
I have to do with the the profile of the crime scene you know we've worked with with Jim Clementi doing crime scene
reconstruction and and studying the behavior exhibited here um in my own analysis was the same
people think that one you know how would one person kill three boys but that's that's part of why the profile indicates
that this is someone not only with a known personal relationship but also an authority figure to these eight-year-old
boys which is pretty much about any adult right uh it's very easy to see say one boy gets punished and which results
in him being unconscious and the other boy's freaking out and for that that single figure to to yell you know you
get your butts back here or come back or I'm gonna do this or whatever and and you could literally you know as a I've
said this before on the podcast the you know as a grown man myself I could easily grab three eight-year-old boys by
the you know by the Naps of their neck by the collars of their shirt you know one one hand and two in the other and
grab them and hold them underwater all three at the same time you know it's not you know I've wrestled around with my
with my boy in his in his friends you know it's it's so it's definitely not necessary for there to be three
the forensics and the crime scene seem to indicate that there was one you know that it's the same kind of patterns
happening on all of them people like to cite well this knot was tied differently
than this knot but they were all a series of half-hitches basically you know some of them were double triple
whatever but it's basically the same type of knot the boys are all tied up in the same way you just don't see that
that happen with three different people right so so the boys were tied up in a very unique way with ankles to to wrists
so what you're stating is with the the knots the the knots were the same type of night knots It's just sometimes there
were multiple knots instead of just yeah so I have hit a half hedge knot as a basic like the first knot you tie in
your shoes you know over under and pull it tight yeah and you know a double knot
and a triple knot and a quadruple knot they're all they're all different variations of that knot
but what's more important is to look at the very unique way of how the boys were
tied right ankle to right wrist left ankle to right wrist that that was done you know no one would
direct someone to tie them in that particular way because there's no utility in it right it doesn't stop
someone from running it doesn't it doesn't keep them from being able to untie themselves it's not hog tying like
like some would say it's it's pretty clearly this was done post-mortem or at least post you know when someone's
unconscious I think Michael Moore did you a little bit of bruising from one of the ligatures which could mean he still
had some amount of heartbeat left when that was put on but the others show none so you know if there's multiple people
and you're directing them you know do you say hey when you tie them up make sure you tie right wrist to right ankle
left wrist to right ankle you wouldn't do that you know you're just gonna you're trying to tie them up
in my opinion the reason they were tied that way was to create a smaller package
to keep them under the water uh so that they didn't they didn't reveal themselves I think it was probably a
trial and error I think they're probably put down it didn't work and then they took the clothes off and tied them up
that way um but that's kind of really getting into the weeds but the point is in my
opinion looking at that that crime scene the same person tied all three of those
boys up the same person uh put all three boys into the water in the clothes everything is too uniform for there to
have been multiple people there and also I mean plain and simple two people can't keep a secret like this
for that long it's impossible the only way a secret like this gets kept is if only one person knows what happened
[Music] [Music] all right thank you guys so much for joining us in the garage we know it's
difficult times weird times strange times and we appreciate you and we're going to keep going with the flying
garage ship and if you want to listen to our coverage of the West Memphis 3 download the free Stitcher app we have
all of our shows on there and you can go all the way back to July of 2016. listen
to episodes 40 41 and 42 those are the West Memphis Three episodes also we've talked about West Memphis Three I don't
know how many times on our other show off the Record available on Stitcher premium go to our website and you can
click on off the Record and get a free month of listening until tomorrow be good be kind and don't litter
thank you [Music]

The Forgotten WM3 /// Part 1 /// 386

Part 1 of 2 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

This week we are very excited to be joined in the Garage by friend of the show Bob Ruff! Bob is the host of the very popular Truth & Justice podcast and Executive Producer and star of Oxygen’s The Forgotten West Memphis 3. Beer of the Week - Dortmunder Gold by The Great Lakes Brewing Company Garage Grade - 5 out of 5 Bottle Caps Don’t miss out for a chance to check out the Garage sponsors and these awesome deals! www.LightStream.com/TCG - Get a low rate on a credit card consolidation loan from LightStream! www.Grove.CO/Garage - For a limited time get a FREE Five Piece set, plus FREE shipping and a FREE 60 day VIP trial! www.ThirdLove.com/Garage - Get 15% off of your first order! The full archive of True Crime Garage is available on the Stitcher listening app - for FREE. Our show “Off the Record” is only on Stitcher Premium. For a FREE month of listening go to http://stitcherpremium.com/truecrimegarage and use promo code GARAGE

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the West Memphis Three case, focusing on the murders of three boys and the wrongful convictions of three teenagers.

Key points

The West Memphis Three. A tragic triple homicide case involving three young boys and the wrongful conviction of three teenagers.
Confession and Controversy. Jesse Miss Kelly's confession raises doubts with inconsistencies and errors.
The Fight for Justice. After years of advocacy, the West Memphis Three negotiate a plea bargain to assert their innocence.
The Case Overview. A deep dive into the socioeconomic backgrounds of the victims and the accused.
The Crime Scene Reality. Revealing the actual size and location of the crime scene, challenging popular beliefs.
The Mystery Boy. Sightings of a fourth boy complicate the investigation into the murders.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

The three little boys that were killed and lost their lives that day.

Reflection on the victims

9:24WatchNov 15, 2022

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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