Mind Hunter ///John Douglas /// Part 2 | Forensic Files

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[Music] [Applause] [Music] We are continuing our discussion with John Douglas, retired FBI special agent
John Douglas. You know him from the behavioral science unit. You may know him from the wonderful show Mind Hunter.
Picking up where we left off, we were discussing one of my favorite books, Law and Disorder, and in particular, The
West Memphis 3 case. Mr. Douglas, when you met Mark Buyers, there was a dramatic contrast to your meeting with
Terry Hobbs. At first, Mark Buyers was off-put and not very welcoming to your conversation, but he very quickly warmed
up to you and then became very much an open book. Whereas Terry Hobbs put on the facade of being welcoming and
interested in talking to you. However, as the conversation went along, he became aggressive and became dodgy to
your questions. He wanted Yeah, he very much so he a word got out that you know that that uh he wanted to get have
somebody uh get rid of me uh and uh like contract to have me killed uh but buyers
you're exactly right. I when I sat on that porch of his hot as heck down there sweating and and he got angry as hell
and his wife was there uh and uh initially I started talking. I was on the porch like an hour or so and then
finally I was invited into the house and I spent hours upon hours you know you know with him and just assessing him and
I mean I mean he's not the most uh uh stable person uh at that certainly but he's he he didn't
kill he didn't kill his you know his his child the a different feel too that I had when I spoke when I spoke to Terry
Hobbs and uh initially spoke with him at a shopping center trying to get gain his
trust and then when I started gain information on him and he got really pissed off at me when I we were able to
track down uh years earlier uh how he uh broke into a house, a neighbor's house and uh as she was taking a shower and he
tried to molest her tried to molest this woman. He thought that record was purged
and it wasn't available and so he had that. He also shot his brother, his brother-in-law, and he was also
extremely violent to his to his children, his son and his young son and daughter, and to his, you know, to his
uh his wife. Uh his his wife is a believer that uh that he is responsible for that crime, but no one's going to
really, you know, you know, do no one's really working it. Uh as far as they're concerned, it's solved. They don't have
to pay they don't have to pay any money uh to uh you know to uh Damon Eckl and Jesse and Jason Baldwin uh any state
money uh because they had the pled the Alfred plea uh and uh so to this day they're they're sex offenders these
these three I I did a presentation with Amanda Knox and Jesse Miss Kelly about a
year and a half ago up in uh up in New York And uh you could see we just they I took a chunk out of their lives. It's
like they're it's like they're they're behind developmentally, emotionally because of
the time that was they spent a period of time in their lives in uh in prison. Particularly uh uh Damian and and it was
the same too with Amanda. It's the same same thing. Speaking of interviewing parents of victims and also parents that
may be considered suspects, you were directly involved in the still unsolved homicide of six-year-old John Benet
Ramsay. For those who are yet to read the cases that haunt us. Can you explain how you became involved in the case?
>> Yeah, I was in um I happened to be in Utah at the time speaking at a university when I got a call from an
investigator who's working on defense team. I didn't know who he was and uh they asked me that if I would like to
participate in in the investigation and I and uh I told a colleague of mine who used to work for me in in the unit I I
accepted it and I and I said uh this family is guilty you know in the back of my mind I'm thinking that you know
they're guilty because what I was reading in the papers is what was being presented on on television. So, I I go
over and I meet the uh the attorneys at in in Denver and u an old mansion they have as a uh as an office. And inside of
what would be the living room, there's a is an enclosed enc casement of a it's like a fiberglass room within the room
and go in there. So, I'm thinking in the back of my mind, what are these guys going to do? They're going to they're
going to like offer me money or something. They're going to pay me. I'm going to give him a rash of crap, man.
Walk right out on him. But they I got in there and and I sat down and and they said, "John, we don't know. We really
don't know. We don't know. Just he said, "We don't think they did it. Uh we but we we'd like you to take a look what we
have. Can we present to you what what we have?" And I said, "Yeah." He says, "But
you know um and they are going to pay me. They're going to pay me, but the pay people think I was became a millionaire.
$1,500. I spent a lot of time. I testified out there and everything. Uh and because once I realized I was not
working for I was working for victims, wasn't working for offenders. I was working for victims of a violent crime
who had been go who are now in the process of being revictimized uh by being accused of killing a child.
But once I saw how how she was how she was murdered and the things that was done to her that was wasn't all made
made uh public uh and and uh parents killed believe me we have had plenty of cases parents killed but not
like this not like this not in this uh with this family this this type of family you know either uh they don't
kill like like this so I did the analysis I I met with uh uh the family uh and uh went actually uh first thing I
did I went to the house and kind of re reenacted reconstructed things to see where they were uh their bedroom was was
their bedroom was up like in an attic that was made into a master bedroom and the children are on the next floor down
and you can't hear anything with the air conditioning heating units going you really can't hear anything if anyone was
down below you uh there um but I looked at when I look at a case like that Okay,
you're looking at then I'm looking at pre-offense behavior, post-defense behavior. What's going on in their
lives, you know, and I didn't see anything in pre-offense behavior that it would that I it was out of the ordinary
or unusual. It's Christmas time. They're going to Charavoy, Michigan for the holidays, and I think they're going to
work their way down to Disney World. Uh, and I don't see anything there. Uh, now
we perpetrate the crime. Okay, the crime has been perpetrated. Let's take a look
at that. And then I saw where the investigators asked uh John and a neighbor, Fleetwood,
to take a look around, see if anything's out of the ordinary. Take a look downstairs in this basement. So they
they go down there. Usually when a parent kills, what we found over the years that the parent the parent who did
the killing, it won't be the one to find the body. He'll get somebody else, the person with them. or if it's searching
in a yard or something with a s or a search party, they may they are not going to be the one to find the child.
In this situation here, Fleet White goes down. John goes into this room, checks,
it's a it's a wine celler, but there's no wine. They don't even drink. And there he finds uh uh his daughter, "Oh
my god, my baby," he he shouts out. And uh she has tape over her mouth, her hands are over her head. Uh uh tied uh
together. Uh he doesn't know it yet, but she is gared. Uh and uh he then picks her up, carries her upstairs, lays her
down in the eventually in the I guess it's in the the living room. Bunch of people are up there. Everything's
contaminated. Uh and uh they're trying to bring her back to life, rubbing her body that's in rigger. And uh there's a
little bruise on her on her forehead. So, she has a bruise on her forehead. She uh has been gared. They can't even
see the garage. She's been gared and a piece of the the paintbrush is used to to for as a handle to gar with a rope
that in this this nylon rope that they never found where this rope was that Ramsey didn't have and they didn't find
any other pieces of it. uh they find wood fibers from uh from a uh from the same paintbrush in a vaginal uh vaginal
area. She was been penetrated with uh believe now with that with that stick. That's how that that uh you know got
there. uh when they they start the autopsy and they remove uh the skull or the the skin on the skull uh
surprisingly they find that the skull has been uh cracked open like a like a coconut like 8 8 and 1/2 in in length
but why is there just a little red slight red mark on her forehead and my gosh to break your skull you'd think
there'd be some kind of edema there'd be swelling and blood And uh well why is because the she was dead or on her last
breath when when uh the person responsible wasn't satisfied enough uh with uh w with the uh uh with the death
itself. So he he does her in with it wasn't necessary for the to kill. She's already you know dead from from the uh
the garat. Uh and so uh and then the letter the other thing the letter right the famous two and a half page letter
and the FBI was against me. Police hated me around the country and and you know never saw a 2 and 1/2 page letter and
yeah that's right they're right about that. However, when would the letter have been written is the question. You
mean to tell me that after the the RA tell me the Ramsies have been murdered, now you're going to write a two and a
half page letter uh uh this threatening letter asking for money and the money coincides roughly to what a bonus that
John Ramsay have. But you're you're going to be pulling in into this letter different different verses that are
coming right out of movies out of out of movies like Ransom uh and uh and you're
going to have the presence of mind to you know to do something like that after after uh the crime. No, you're you're
not you're not going to have that that kind of presence of mind. So I just saw so many different different things and
you know the bureau they were angry you know you know like I I may be you know I
like when I saw Alex Hunter talking before the public we know you're out there we know there's going to be
there's more than one of you I knew I knew that he was coached by without anyone telling me. I mean, I I I
invented this stuff that that that he was being told by by the agents of of what to say, but I'm not telling I'm not
so telling the the uh the defense what they're doing here, what what you know, what their tactics are. I'm not doing
it. I would have loved to been, you know, been able to solve that case if it was them to come up and get a a
confession out of him, but that was not that was, you know, not the case. And and it was it was a broken man. And I
I'd met Janna several times. Uh and uh a a broken a broken man. Uh Paty Ramsay's
stage. She was in remission. Cancer returned. She dies. Everyone was waiting for a dying declaration. There was no
dying declaration. She didn't kill her kill her daughter. John is since remarried. CBS comes out with a a TV
show with these so-called FBI, some former agent expert experts in quotes and and uh forensic experts and and a
and a come up with this theory that more than a theory, but an accusation that that that uh Burke Ramsey is responsible
for the uh you the death. I mean, I was I was watching that. and think, "Holy mackerel, you can't say something like
that." I mean, here Burke is, you know, he's I'm not going to say where he lives, but I I've come across him over
the the years. I mean, he he did not uh hit his sister accidentally or whatever on on purpose. In fact, if if the
parents knew that, they never would have allowed him to talk to the police alone
without even the parents the parents in the presence of of Burke. Uh so that's another one of these cases where you
know they they what they did what they did Nick is they and you see this sometimes on cases you you let they let
a theory drive an investigation and they let certain evidence that supports the theory in and they disallow some
evidence that doesn't fit the theory out you know so so they let that theory you
know drive it not being driven by evidence of any kind or uh forensic or uh evidence or whatever uh eyewitness
testimony. No, the letting a letting a theory. Uh and you know why? Because two because you had a you didn't have a
homicide investigator work in that case. You had a drug investigator uh work in that narcotics officer work in that
case. And because they have so few cases, they rotate them out there in Boulder. And so the mindset of a a
narcotics officer is different than a homicide officer. A narcotronics officer knows comes knows you're dealing, knows
it's you. I know it's you. I'm going to make a case on you. I'm going to make it, you know, on you. I'm going to build
a case all around you. Informants, whatever. We're going to get you. Well, you get that mindset in the homicide
case. I know he did it. I know the the certain behavior. Paty, when they brought the child up, uh Paty was there,
her fingers were spled across her face, peeking through her eyes, and all that other other nonsense stuff. No, you let
you let a uh uh you you let a theory drive your investigation. You you you're into a narcotics investigation mindset,
not a homicide investigators. And that's why who's the investigator from Colorado
Springs? Uh L. Smith. >> Yeah, that's what I was going to say. As soon as you are brought in to take a
look at the case and as soon as the famous homicide detective, the late great Lid is brought in to take a look
at the case. The two of you separately come up with very similar conclusions. It's the famous L. Smith intruder
theory. >> I when I when I testified with the grand jury and then uh he test he testified I
guess before I did some a different day and I I testified uh uh afterwards they said that L Smith wanted to speak with
me and over in Colorado Springs. Great guy. Really great guy. And uh so they drove me over there and and uh I knock
on his door and he comes to the door and he said introduce ourselves. He said, "John," he said, "I don't know. I don't
know how you did it. It took me 10 months or 10 months. You came up with this in four days, four or five days,
whatever, whatever it was." And he said, "And you didn't see everything. And I've
got everything. I got everything here. I'd like to go through the case or PowerPoint presentation and and with
you." I said that'd be great. So I went down in his basement. He went through the whole case and I hadn't seen even
everything but things I didn't see. I just I I I just uh certain case I had to make assumptions. Uh everything just fit
and uh then they were coming out that you know that uh that that Lou and myself that the family was religious
that that we were that we were being pulled into the Ramsies because of uh our fa because of faith and no
we've both of us have been in and investigators of all types we'll we'll arrest religious people. We don't don't
don't uh you don't care. But but if we don't like, you know, wrongful convictions and and destroying the lives
of, you know, of of people, I mean, it's terrible to to lose your child, but now
to be to be accused of killing uh killing your child and and uh and that's where when you get into Nick the like
social media where it can be dangerous. A lot of social media could be good where you can develop help and actually
can help law enforcement with leads and people discussion and there's been some websites that been very very successful
but then you got others you know which can totally could jeopardize uh investig investigation and shape the attitude of
of people. I remember right after that too I'm on a train going up to New York and and there's a guy in front of me and
and this is after I did an anal analysis. back and and and on the night of the crime it was like the head on the
night of the crime py was with with was without her lover and I'm thinking what the hell so I when I get to New York I
call I said I was did was was Py having an affair with some guy you not telling me what are you talking about and I said
this guy it's one of these rag tabloid things you I saw this on a train no it's garbage it's garbage but you can see how
people see that that kind of crap you know and and and and start believing, you know, start believing in it. And you
can't you can't sway their their their opinion at all. [Music] [Applause] [Music]
[Applause] [Music] Do you think we will ever know who killed Jean Benet? >> I hope so. I mean, I don't know. You
hear different things of a, you know, if they brought in They've had some good suspect. They had
one good suspect there. They had several. I mean, uh, the the place was full of, uh, sex offenders all around
the areas where where Paty and John were living there. But then there was one guy
who, uh, who committed suicide. Uh, he had access to a stun gun. See the police discount that SL Smith went over the
stun gun and showed me they did they did test with a uh a medical doctor on pigs
uh using a stun gun showing the marks of similarities here. I mean hopefully you
know DNA familial DNA or something will you know will solve that uh that case one one day but I don't know if they're
they're working and I hear once in a while you hear like a new attorney general come in. we're going to take a
new look at the case or the the uh a prosecutor uh wants to take a look at the case. But, you know, hopefully I
mean uh it can look at the Golden State case. I mean, after all these years, I mean, we worked that case the unit I
just worked the I worked when it was the East Area Rapist, the rapes, uh that that he was he was doing and uh we
didn't wasn't responsible. was just DNA. DNA got him, which was uh after so many
years a police officer uh was responsible. >> We're all very excited for the release
of your new book, The Killer's Shadow: The FBI's Hunt for a White Supremist serial killer. Can you tell us a little
bit about your latest book? This is a is a different kind of serial killer and it was a case that uh the
first case that the bureau would give me only because they've uh of an supervisor
on the civil rights division uh uh squad up at headquarters knew we knew each other from Milwaukee division. We're on
the same SWAT team together and I he knew I was doing this research on serial murders and going into prisons and he
calls me to see if I could be of uh be of help. So this would be different Nick. would not be a profile so much as
it would be an assessment. Uh like so you got to kind of do your old show years ago was called this is your life
you know and uh and they would do this background of total background of a guy. So I would go up to headquarters and uh
yeah it and there was a lot of pressure because if I screw this thing up I'm just starting to get going here and not
not everyone is supportive within the organization of me doing any of this this research. uh uh they just don't
understand, you know, what the purpose of it is, even though we're helping local police and the later international
police departments here. So, so the assessment is is that the the latest thing with Franklin is is that he's
linked to over 20 homicides. He travel he's a he's prolific bank robber. Uh he unlike serial killers that have a
particular comfort zone for the crimes, this guy is all over the place. He's all
over the map. Uh uh he's a bomber. Some of his cases are a bombing. Uh he is a uh bank bank robber, prolific bank
robber. Uh he is a it turns out to be an excellent shot with a rifle uh uh in in
in fact excellent shot with only one eye because when he as a youth he lost the side of eyes in his right eye uh in an
accident. People think it's said it was a bicycle. No, it wasn't a bicycle accident. It was a shade, an old window
shade with a spring inside. And he was playing with his brother. The spring came out, popped him right in the eye.
Mother took him to the hospital. A mother who is extremely abusive to him. A father extremely again very very
abusive uh to him and and his brothers and and sisters. Mother takes him to the hospital. The doctor says, "We can't do
anything right now. We'll it's temporary, but bring him back in a couple months. we'll do some surgery and
we'll make his eye good as new. She doesn't do that. She doesn't take him back as a young child to the hospital.
He ends up losing his sight and he he then uh what a way to overcompensate the loss of sight is to be an excellent
shot. Uh uh he wanted to be a police officer too. Another one. He said, "Oh, another guy wants to be an officer." And
uh when when he heard through a neighbor who was a police officer that he couldn't join because of the loss of of
one eye he extremely angry and bitter again towards his uh you know towards his mother hated hated his mother and
his father. That's why he would he would he would change his name to Joseph. His
name was James Vaughn. He would change his name to Joseph Paul Franklin. And then uh uh he then was gravitated to uh
these uh KKK different uh these radical hate hate groups uh American Nazi party passing
out literature. Today he would have a field day with the internet uh access. Uh but then what he realized was because
he was paranoid that uh these organizations were pretty much uh uh infiltrated by FBI by FBI informants and
they were keeping good tabs on them uh on the these organizations back there back then and they were primarily you
know talking the talk but not walking the walk and he got became frustrated and uh decided to go out on his own and
and the so-called birth of the the lone wolf lone wolf uh criminal and it just started by tailing interracial couples.
First one was up in Maryland. Uh he maceed them, but then that was after the macing them that was the last time he
used mace. From then on in, he would uh he would start uh using uh uh various firearms. He he shot Larry Flint uh the
of uh Flint uh Hustler magazine. He shot he shot him. Uh he shot uh Vernon Jordan
uh civil rights leader. Uh you know at at the time he wrote a threatening letter to uh to uh Jimmy Carter. Uh
Secret Service was u uh when he wasn't identified yet was was trying to figure out, you know, who done it. So I what I
said was with him the long and short of it is I came up with an assessment that predicted where he would go in the in
the country and that would be now now that he's a fugitive he's a top 10 uh yeah he committed these crimes all
around these other areas but he's going to he's going to be a homing pigeon now he's going back to Mobile it's going
back to Mobile and then and to Florida he may not be robbing banks because we we'll have a lot of these banks be
notified I'd staked out and uh but the teletype then it was teletypes uh was an internet teletype goes out he's
spotted in Mobile Alabama the agent in charge of the office calls me and wants to know the name of the bank or savings
alone I think this guy is going to be robbing I said what I said what do you I can't I don't know I you didn't even
know what city he was in I I told you what city he's in so he was there temporarily uh they spotted him
surveillance camera and blood bank and then they they uh passed out flyers on him through all these different blood
banks in the in the deep south out in Florida and that's where he would be he would be spotted uh in a blood blood
bank. So, uh, got him there. I coached, they'll say, I coached the, uh, the, uh,
agent on the interview a little bit. Uh, but then I got to interview him, uh, later on in the, uh, the late ' 80s, 90
90ish, uh, with a with a Secret Service agent. You would have thought, Nick, that Secret Service would have had a
behavioral science unit uh, over the years. They did not have a unit like we had. they they had not done research
like we were doing with violent uh crimes uh at all. And so I did a couple of cases for Secret Service over the
years. Turned out pretty good. And so then they sent down uh a guy great a great guy he's passed away uh Ken Baker
secret service and and uh we we conducted uh we some research on assassin interviewed like squeaky from
who shot Ford Sarah Jane Moore who shot Ford Arthur Bremer who shot George Wallace James Earl Ray shot Dr. Martin
Luther, Luther King and other assassination style of per killings. And that's why we interviewed Franklin
because he had that assassination style of killing. And uh the problem is is that and we come up with this killer
shadow is that to this day he still cast a shadow a long shadow uh because there
are others like him out there. He's now he's been executed 2013 but uh uh there are others who the law
enforcement come across now and then who uh are emulating people you know like him who who are being influenced today
not so much like the old days where it would be in a some some hall room or meeting or some someone's basement. Now
it's on the internet where you can have uh you can have there's hundreds and hundreds of sites these uh racist sites,
anti-semitic sites where where someone can gravitate to that and not everyone go will go out and can perpetrate acts
of violence but but someone may and someone will will see that and and take action like a you know like this uh uh
uh Joseph uh Paul Franklin uh you know character And so it's and so it's much it's difficult today to investigate
them. In the old days you had an organization. Now you have you have someone who could be influencing others
but it's not they're not tied into there's no hierarchy. There's no leader and soldiers you know none of that
lieutenants like an organized crime even you don't have you don't have anything like that. So it makes it extremely
difficult for law enforcement and law enforcement resources are very skimpy particularly after 9/11 the emphasis was
on uh was on international terrorism the deemphasis on uh because of resources on domestic uh domestic
terrorism. So, it's uh you it's not over. You'll there'll be others other cases. Unfortunately, uh,
you know, hopefully we can what we we can rely on is is information from the public when they see someone who's
becoming obsessed with with hatred and anti-semitic uh, anti- everything or African-Americans
and it's becoming uh, obsessed with weapons and other maybe weapons of destruction. uh law enforcement can't be
everywhere at every time. Sometimes they rely on public information from anonymous sources that that's what they
need to follow up uh the leads to see if this person you know if they can if we'll carry out uh a uh you know this
you a violent act. It's kind of like a school shooter. You may you have certain indicators but you you can't always
predict for 100%. you can interact inter or intercede and and uh uh take some action with the family or
yeah and give this person counseling or whatever. Uh but very very difficult very very difficult for law enforcement.
So they're going to that's what they'll see in this book. They'll see the evolution of him how and and uh kind of
like like the the uh Sunny Bono and Sher the beat goes on and the beat goes on. There'll be more, unfortunately.
There'll be more of them, probably cases like this in in the future. >> Mr. Douglas, thank you again for your
time today and for doing the interview. You've been more than generous with us here in the garage.
>> Thanks for having me again and we're working on another one for next year. Next year we'll be doing one. uh they
want us to do like kind of like an end rule thing like one case that sometimes be a case that I've worked or maybe case
to take a look at you know a new case uh investigate uh try to come up with a solution or so so have me back.
>> Yes sir. As soon as you're done with this next book we'd love to have you back.
>> Thank you so much. I enjoyed it. Keep up the good work. >> Thank you Mr. Douglas for joining us in
the garage. [Music] [Applause] Thank you so much for joining us here in the garage, letting us be a part of your
week, letting us be a part of your holidays. Colonel, do we have any recommended reading this week?
>> We have a lot to recommend today. First off, the True Crime Garage every single
episode archive is available for your listening pleasure when you download the free Stitcher listening app on your
device. That's right, over 440 episodes to listen to for free, including the last time Mr. John Douglas was on the
show back in May of 2019 in the John Douglas Mind Hunter episode number 302. Also, we will be recommending a batch of
John Douglas's books. We recommended The Killer's Shadow last week, and you heard
us reference in our discussion this week some of his other great books, including
The Cases That Haunt Us: Law and Disorder, and The Killer Across the Table. We will have all of those great
titles listed on our recommended page at true crimegar.com. Here is us wishing all of you and yours
a very safe and happy Thanksgiving. Be good, be thankful, and please don't live.
[Music]

Mind Hunter ///John Douglas /// Part 2

Episode:446

Part 2 of 2

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

This week we are joined once again by Legendary F.B.I. Profiler John Douglas, the Mindhunter. Nic ask questions regarding some of the cases that haunt us. Listen in as we discuss The Zodiac, The West Memphis 3 and JonBenet Ramsey.

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Brief Summary

John Douglas discusses the West Memphis 3 and JonBenét Ramsey cases, plus his new book on a white supremacist serial killer.

Key points

Thanksgiving Cheers. The hosts toast to their listeners and contributors, celebrating the spirit of Thanksgiving.
John Douglas on the Ramsey Case. Retired FBI agent John Douglas discusses his involvement in the unsolved JonBenet Ramsey case.
The Killer's Shadow. John Douglas discusses his latest book on a white supremacist serial killer.
The Evolution of Violence. Douglas explains how modern influences complicate law enforcement's ability to predict violent acts.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's good to be seen and it's good to see you.

Captain's introduction

0:55WatchSep 5, 2025

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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