Mind Hunter: John Douglas /// Part 2 /// 446 | Forensic Files

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supporting the show this year big things happening as this is our last show big things are happening because we're
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everybody made it through 2020 and that is enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a chair
grab a beer let's talk some true crime [Music] [Applause] [Music] We are continuing our discussion with
John Douglas retired FBI special agent John Douglas you know him from the Behavioral Science unit you may know him
from the wonderful show mind Hunter picking up where we left off we were discussing one of my favorite books law
and disorder and in particular the West Memphis 3 case Mr Douglas when you met Mark Byers there
was a dramatic contrast to your meeting with Terry Hobbs at first Mark Byers was
off put and not very welcoming to your conversation but he very quickly warmed up to you and then became very much an
open book whereas Terry Hobbs put on the facade of being welcoming and interested
in talking to you however as the conversation went along he became aggressive and became dodgy to your
questions he won yeah he very much so he a word got out that you know that that he
wanted to get have somebody uh get rid of me uh and uh like contract at me I mean killed uh but
buyers you're exactly right when I sat on that porch of his for the hot as heck down there and sweating and and he got
angry as hell and his wife was there and uh initially then I started talking I was on the porch like an hour or so
and then finally I I was invited into the house and I spent hours on hours you know you know with him and just
assessing him and I mean I mean the he's not the most the uh stable person at that certainly but he's he he didn't
kill he didn't kill his you know his his child a different feel too that I had when I spoke when I spoke to Terry Hobbs
and uh initially spoke with him at a shopping Center trying to get gain his trust and then when I started gain
information on him and he got really pissed off at me when I we were able to track down uh years earlier uh how he
broke into a house or a neighbor's house and uh as she was taking a shower and he
tried to molester try to molest this woman he thought that record was purged and it wasn't available and so he had
that he also shot his brother his brother-in-law and he was also extremely violent to his to his children his son
and his young son and daughter into his you know to his uh his wife uh his his wife is a believer that that he is
response possible for that crime but no one's going to really you know you know do it no one's really working it uh as
far as they're concerned with the child they don't have to pay they don't have to pay any money
to uh you know to Damon eckel and Jesse and Jason Baldwin uh any state money because
they had the pled the Alfred plea and uh so to this day they're they're sex offenders these these three
I did a presentation with Amanda Knox and Jesse Miss Kelly about a year and a half ago up in uh up in New York and uh
you could see we just they I took a chunk out of their lives it's like they're it's like they're they're behind
developmentally emotionally because of the time that we they spent a period of time in their lives in uh in prison
particularly uh uh Damien and and it was the same too with Amanda the same same thing speaking of
interviewing parents of victims and also parents that may be considered suspects
you were directly involved in the still unsolved homicide of six-year-old JonBenet Ramsey for those who are yet to
read the cases that haunt us can you explain how you became involved in the case yeah I was in uh I happen to be in
Utah at the time speaking at a university when I got a call from an investigator who's working on the
defense team I didn't know who he was and uh asked me that if I would like to participate in in the investigation and
I and I told a colleague of mine who used to work for me in a unit I accepted it and and I said this family is guilty
you know I'm in the back of my mind I'm thinking that you know they're guilty because what I was reading in the paper
is what was being presented on on television so I I go over and I meet the the attorneys in in Denver and uh an old
mansion they have as a as an office and inside of what would be the living room there's a is a closed encasement of a of
like a fiberglass room within the room and go in there so I'm thinking in the back of my mind I'm one of these guys
going to do they're gonna they're gonna like offer me money or something they're
gonna pay me I'm gonna give them a rash of craft man walk right out on them but I got in there and and I
sat down and they said John we don't know we really don't know we don't know just so we don't think they
did it uh we but we we'd like you to take a look or what we have can we present to you what what we have and I
said yeah he says but you know uh and they are going to pay me they're going to pay me but the pay people thank God I
was became a millionaire fifteen hundred dollars I spent a lot of time I testified out there and everything uh
and because once I realized I'm I was not working for I was working for victims wasn't working for offenders I
was working for victims of a violent crime who had been who are now in the process of being re-victimized uh by
being accused of killing their child but once I saw how how she was how she was murdered and the
things that was done to her that was wasn't all Nate made uh public uh and and uh
parents kill believe me we have had plenty of cases parents killed but not like this not like this not in this uh
with this family this this type of family you know either uh they don't kill like like this so I did the
analysis I I met with the family uh and uh what actually uh first thing I did I went to the house and kind of
reenact and reconstructed things to see where they were lit uh their bedroom was
was their bedroom was up like in an attic that was made into a master bedroom and the children on the next
floor down and you can't hear anything with the Air Conditioning Heating units going you really can't hear anything if
anyone was down below you uh there uh but I looked at the when I look at a case like that okay you're looking at
then I'm looking at pre-offense Behavior post-defense Behavior what's going on in
their lives you know and I didn't see anything in pre-defense behavior that it would that I I was out of the ordinary
or unusual it's Christmas time they're going to Charlevoix Michigan for the holidays and I think they're going to
work their way down to Disney Disney World uh and I don't see anything there now we perpetrate the crime okay the
crime has been perpetrated let's take a look at that and then I saw where the investigators asked John and a
neighbor Fleetwood to take a look around see if anything's out of the ordinary take a look downstairs in this basement
so they they go down there usually when a parent kills what we found over the years that the parent the parent who did
the killing it won't be the one to find the body you'll get somebody else the person with them or if it's searching in
the yard or something with a cert or a search party they may they are not going to be the one to find the child
in this situation here Fleet white goes down John goes into this room checks it's a it's a wine cellar but there's no
wine they don't even drink and there he finds uh uh his daughter oh my God my baby he he shouts out and uh she has
tape over her mouth her hands are over her head uh uh tied together uh he doesn't know it yet but she is garotted
uh and uh he then picks her up carries her upstairs lays her down in the eventually
and they I guess it's in the the living room a bunch of people are up there everything's contaminated uh and uh
they're trying to bring her back to life rubbing her body that's in rigor and uh there's a little bruise on her on
her forehead so she has a bruise on her forehead they should she uh has been garotted
they can't even see the girl she's been garotted and a piece of the the paintbrush is used to to as a handle to
garat or with a rope at in this nylon rope that they never found where this rope was that Ramsay
didn't have and they didn't find any other pieces of it uh they find a wood fibers from uh from a uh from the same
paintbrush in their vaginal vaginal area she's been penetrated with uh I believe
now with that with that stick that's how that that uh you know got there uh when
they they start the autopsy and they remove uh the skull or the the skin on the skull uh surprisingly they find that
the skull has been uh cracked open like a like a coconut like eight eight and a half inches in length but why is there
just a little red slight red mark on our forehead and my gosh to break your skull
you think it would be some kind of Edema to be swelling and blood and uh well it's why is because the
she was dead or on her last breath when when the person responds wasn't satisfied enough uh with uh with the
uh with with the death itself so he he does are in uh it wasn't necessary for the the kill like she's already you know
dead from from the uh the garage uh and so uh and then the letter the other thing the letter correct that's famous
the two and a half page letter and the FBI was against me if police hated me around the country and you know never
saw a two and a half page letter and yeah that's right they're right about that however when would the letter have
been written is the question you mean to tell me that after the rain tell me the
Ramses have been murdered now you're going to write a two and a half Page Letter uh uh this threatening letter
asking for money and the money is coincides roughly to what a bonus that John Ramsey has but you're gonna be
pulling in into this letter different different verses that are coming right out of movies out of movies like Ransom
uh and uh and you can have the presence of mind to you know to do something like
that after after uh the crime no yeah no you're you're not you're not going to have that kind of presence of mind so I
just saw so many different different things and you know the bureau if they were angry you know you know
like I I may be you know I like when I saw Alex Hunter talking before the public we know you're out there right
now there's going to be there's more than one of you I know I knew that he was coached by without anyone telling me
I mean I I invented this stuff that that he was being told by by the Agents of of
what to say but I'm not telling that I'm not still telling the the uh the defense
what they're doing here what the what you know what their tactics are I'm not doing it I would have loved to have been
you know been able to solve that case if it was then just come up and get a confession out of them but that was not
that was you know not the case and and it was as a broken man I met John several times uh and uh a broken a
Broken Man uh Patsy Ramsey's the stage she was in remissions cancer returned she died everyone was waiting
for a dying declaration there was no dying declaration she didn't kill her I killed her daughter John is sensory
married CBS comes out with a a TV show with these so-called FBI some form of agent
expert experts in quotes and and uh forensic experts and and they and they come up with this Theory more than a
theory but a can accusation that that uh Burke Ramsey is responsible for the uh you know the death I mean I I was I was
watching that I'm thinking holy Mackle you can't say something like that I mean here Burke is yeah he's I'm not going to
say where he lives but I've come across him over the uh the years I mean he he did not uh hit his sister
accidentally or whatever or on on purpose in fact if if the parents knew that they never would allowed him to
talk to the police alone without even the parents the parents in the presence of of Burke so that's another one of
these cases where you know they what they did what they did Nick is they and you see this sometimes on cases you you
let they let a theory drive an investigation and they let certain evidence that supports the theory in and
they disallow some evidence that doesn't fit the theory out you know so so they let not Theory you know drive it not
being driven by evidence of any kind or uh forensic or uh evidence of whatever I
witnessed testimony you know they're letting letting a theory uh and you know why because two because you had it you
didn't have a homicide investigated working out case you have a drug investigator working a Narcotics officer
at work in that case and because they have so few cases they rotate them out there in Boulder and so the mindset of a
Narcotics officer is different than a homicide officer a Narcotics officer knows comes knows you're dealing knows
it's you I know it's you I'm going to make a case on you I'm going to make it you know on you I'm going to build a
case all around you informants whatever we're going to get you well you get that
mindset in the homicide case I know you did I know a certain Behavior Patsy when
they brought the child up to pass he was there fingers were splayed across her face peeking through her eyes and all
that other other nonsense stuff no you let you let uh uh you look you let us Theory drive your investigation you you
were you're into a Narcotics investigation mindset not a homicide investigators and that's why who's the
investigator from Colorado Springs uh Lou Smith yeah that's what I was going to say as soon as you are brought in to
take a look at the case and as soon as the famous homicide detective the late great Lou Smith is brought in to take a
look at the case the two of you separately come up with very similar conclusions it's the famous Lou Smith
Intruder Theory when I testify for the grand jury and then uh he tests he's testified I guess
before I did some a different day and I I testified afterwards they said that Lou Smith
wanted to speak with me and over in Colorado Springs great guy really great guy and uh so they drove me over there
and and uh I knock on his door and he comes to the door and he said and introduce ourselves he
said John I said I don't know I don't know how you did it like it took me 10 months 10 months you came up with this
in four days four or five days whatever whatever it was and he said and you didn't see everything and I've got
everything I got everything here I I I'd like to go through the case of PowerPoint presentation and with you and
I said that'd be great so I went down in his basement he went through the whole case and then seen even everything but
things I didn't see I just I I just uh showcase had to make assumptions uh everything just fit and uh then they
were coming out that you know that uh that that Lou and myself that the family was religious that we were that we were
being pulled into the Ramses because of uh fate because of faith and now we've both of us have been in an
investigators of all types well best religious people I mean we don't don't you don't care but but if we don't
like you know a wrongful convictions and and destroying the lives of you know of
of people I mean it's terrible to lose your child but now to be to be accused of killing uh killing your child and and
uh and that's when you get into Nick the like social media where it can be dangerous
a lot of social media could be good where you can develop will help them actually can help law enforcement what
leads people discussion and there's been some websites that have been very very successful but then you get others you
know which can totally could jeopardize uh investigate investigation and shape the attitude of of people I remember
right after that too I'm on a train going up to New York and and there's a guy in front of me and this is after I
did an announcement analysis I'm back and and on the night of the Cross it's like the head on the night of the crime
Patsy was with was with out with her lover and I'm thinking what the hell so I when I get to New York I call I said I
was did was Patsy Haller an affair with some guy you're not telling me what are you talking about and I said this guy
but it's one of these rag tabloid things I saw this on a train no that's garbage
it's garbage but you can see how people see that that kind of crap you know and uh and and and start believing you know
start believing in it and you can't you can't sway their their uh their opinion yeah at all
[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] do you think we will ever know who
killed JonBenet I hope so I mean I don't know you hear different things of a yeah if
they brought in a they've had some good suspect they had one good suspect there they had several
I mean the place was full of uh sex offenders all around the areas where where Patsy
and John were living there but then there was one guy who uh who committed suicide uh he had access to a stun gun
see the police discount that because Lou Smith went over the stun gun and showed
me they did they did test with a medical doctor on pigs uh using a stun gun showing the marks and
similarities here I mean hopefully you know DNA familial DNA or something will you know we'll solve that that case one
day but I don't know if they're they're working and I hear once in a while you hear like a new attorney general come in
we're going to take a new look at the case or the the uh a prosecutor wants to take a look at the case but you know
hopefully I mean uh you can look at the Golden State case I mean after all these
years I mean we worked that case the you know I just worked the I worked one was
the East area rapist the rapes uh that that he was that he was doing and uh but we didn't
it wasn't responsible it's just DNA DNA got him which was after so many years a police officer
was responsible we're all very excited for the release of your new book The Killers Shadow the FBI's hunt for a
white supremacist serial killer can you tell us a little bit about your latest book
serial killer and it was a case that the first case that the bureau would give me
only because they've uh of a supervisor on the Civil Rights division uh Squad up
at headquarters we knew each other from Milwaukee division we're on the same SWAT team
together and I he knew I was doing this research on serial murders and going to prisons and he calls me to see if I
could be a be of help so this would be different Nick this would not be a profile so much as it would be an
assessment uh yeah like so you got to kind of do your own show with years ago it's called this is your life you know
and uh and they would do this back ground of a total background of a guy so I would go up to headquarters and uh
yeah and there was a lot of pressure because if I screw this thing up I'm just starting to get going here and now
that not everyone is supportive within the organization of me doing any of this this research uh they just don't
understand you know what the purpose of it is even though we're helping local police on the later International police
departments here so so the assessment is is that the the latest thing with Franklin is is that he's linked to the
over 20 homicides he travels he's prolific bank robber uh he unlike serial killers that have a particular
comfort zone for the crimes this guy is all over the place he's all over the map
uh he's a bomber someone's case are a bombing uh he is a bank bank robber prolific bank robber uh he is a it turns
out to be an excellent shot with a rifle in in fact he's excellent shot with only
one eye because when he as a youth he lost the sight of eyes in his right eye in an accident
people think it said it was a bicycle now it wasn't a bicycle accident it was a shade an old a window shade with a
spring inside and this thing was playing with the brother the spring came out popped them right in the eye mother took
him to the hospital a mother who was extremely abusive to him a father extremely again a very very abusive uh
to him and and his brothers and and sisters mother takes him to the hospital the
doctor says can't do anything right now well it's temporary bringing back in a couple of months we'll do some surgery
and we'll make his eye good as new she doesn't do that she doesn't take them back as a young child to the hospital he
ends up losing his sight and he then uh what a way to overcompensate the loss of
his side is to be an excellent shot uh he wanted to be a police officer too another one he said oh another guy wants
to be an officer and uh when he when he heard through a neighbor who was a police officer that he couldn't join
because of the loss of of one eye he extremely angry and bitter again towards his uh you know towards his mother hate
it hated his mother and his father that's why he would he would he would change his name to Joseph his name was
James Vaughn he would change his name to Joseph Paul Paul Franklin and then uh uh he then was gravitated to these uh
KKK different uh these radical hate groups uh American Nazi party passing out literature today he would have a field
day with the internet uh access uh but then what he realized was because he was paranoid that these organizations were
pretty much uh infiltrated By FBI by FBI informants and they were keeping good tabs on them
uh on these organizations back there back then and they were primarily you know talking the talk but not walking
the walk and he got became frustrated and uh decided to go out on his own and and the so-called birth of the the Lone
Wolf Lone Wolf uh criminal and it just started by tailing interracial couples first one was up in Maryland uh he mace
them but then that was after the Mason then that was the last time he used mace from then on in he would uh
he would start using uh various Firearms he he shot the Larry Flint uh the of uh
Flint uh Hustler magazine he shot he shot him uh he shot uh Vernon Jordan uh civil rights leader uh you know at the
time he wrote a threatening letter to uh to Jimmy Carter uh Secret Service was uh
when he wasn't identified yet was was trying to figure out you know who done it so I what I said was with him the
long short of it is I came up with an assessment that predicted where he would go in the in the country and that would
be now now that he's a fugitive he's a top 10 uh yeah he committed these crimes all around these other areas but he's
gonna it's gonna be a homing pigeon now he's going back to mobile it's going back to mobile into Florida he may not
be robbing banks because we will have a lot of these Banks be notified staked out and but
the teletype then was teletypes was an internet teletype goes out he spotted in Mobile Alabama the agent in charge of
the office calls me and wants to know the name of the bank or savings a loan do I think this guy is going to be
robbing it I said what I said I can't I don't know I you didn't even know what city he was in I I told you what city
he's in so he was there temporarily uh they spotted him surveillance camera and a blood bank and then they they uh
passed out flyers on him through all these different blood banks and in this deep south out in Florida and that's
where he would be he would be spotted uh in a blood bank so uh got him there coached they'll see they'll coach the uh
the agent on the interview a little bit uh but then I got to interview him uh later on in the uh in the late 80s 90
90-ish with with a secret service agent you would have thought Nick that secret service would have had a behavioral
science unit over the years they did not have a unit like we had they did they had not done research like we were doing
with violent crimes uh at all and so I did a couple of cases for secret service over the years that turned out pretty
good and so then they sent down a guy great a great guy he's passed away uh Ken Baker Secret
Service and and uh we we conducted some research on Assassin interview like squeaky from who shot Ford Sarah J Moore
shot Ford Arthur baremma who shot George Wallace James Earl Ray Dr Martin Luther
Luther King and other assassination style of killings and that's why we interviewed Franklin because he had that
Fascination style of killing and the problem is is uh is that and we come up with this killer Shadow is that to this
day he still cast a shadow a long Shadow because there are others like him out there he's now he's been executed 2013
but uh uh there are others who in fact the law enforcement come across and now and then who uh are emulating people you
know like him who who are being influenced today not so much like the old days where it would be in a some
some hall room we're meeting or somebody someone's basement now it's on the internet where you can have uh you could
have and there's hundreds and hundreds of sites these uh racist sites anti-semitic sites where where someone
can gravitate to that and not everyone will go out and perpetrate acts of violence but but someone may and someone
will will see that and and take action like a you know like this uh uh Joseph uh Paul Franklin uh you know character
and so it's and so it's much it's difficult today to investigate them in the old days you had an organization now
you have you have someone who could be influenced saying others but it's not they're not tied into there's no
hierarchy there's no leader and soldiers you know none of that lieutenants like an organized crime even you don't have
you don't have anything like that so it makes it extremely difficult for law enforcement and law enforcement
resources are very skimpy particularly after 9 11 the emphasis was on uh it was on
International terrorism a little bit de-emphasis on because of resources on domestic domestic terrorism
so it's uh it's not over he'll they'll be others other cases unfortunately uh yeah
hopefully we can what we we can rely on is is information from the public when they see someone who's becoming obsessed
with with hatred and anti-semitic uh anti-everything or African-Americans and it's becoming uh
obsessed with weapons and other maybe weapons of Destruction uh law enforcement can't be everywhere
at every time so they rely on public information from Anonymous sources that's what they need to follow up the
leads to see if this person you know if they can it will carry out a uh you know
this you know a violent act it's kind of like a school shooter I mean you have certain indicators but you can't always
predict for 100 you can interact interest or intercede and take some action family or
yeah yeah and give this person counseling or whatever but it's very very difficult it's very very difficult
for law enforcement so they're gonna that's what they'll see in this book they'll see the evolution
of him how and and uh kind of like the the uh Sonny Bono and Cher the beat goes on and the beat goes on it'll be more
unfortunately there'll be more probably cases like this in the future Mr Douglas thank you again for your time
today and for doing the interview you've been more than generous with us here in
the garage thanks a lot have me again and we're working on another one for next year next year we'll be doing one
they want us to do like kind of like an Ann Rule thing like one case case that sometimes be a case
that I've worked or maybe case to take a look at you know a new case uh investigate uh try to come up with a
solution or so so have me back yes sir as soon as you're done with this next book we'd
love to have you back thank you so much enjoyed it keep up the good work thank you Mr Douglas for joining us in the
garage foreign [Music] thank you so much for joining us here in the garage letting us be a part of your
week letting us be a part of your holidays Colonel do we have any recommended reading this week we have a
lot to recommend today first off the True Crime garage every single episode archive is available for your listening
pleasure when you download the free Stitcher listening app on your device that's right over 440 episodes to listen
to for free including the last time Mr John Douglas was on the show back in May of 2019 in the John Douglas mind Hunter
episode number 302 also we will be recommending a batch of John Douglas's books we recommended The Killers Shadow
last week and you heard us reference in our discussion this week some of his other great books including the cases
that haunt us law and disorder and the killer across the table we will have all of those great titles listed on our
recommended page at True Crime garage.com here's us wishing all of you and yours a very safe and Happy
Thanksgiving be good be thankful and please don't live [Music] foreign

Mind Hunter: John Douglas /// Part 2 /// 446

Part 2 of 2 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

This week we are joined once again by Legendary F.B.I. Profiler John Douglas, the Mindhunter. Nic ask questions regarding some of the cases that haunt us. Listen in as we discuss The Zodiac, The West Memphis 3 and JonBenet Ramsey.

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Brief Summary

John Douglas discusses the West Memphis 3 and JonBenet Ramsey cases, plus his new book on a serial killer.

Key points

Thanksgiving Cheers. The hosts toast to listeners and contributors, celebrating community and support.
John Douglas on JonBenet. Retired FBI agent John Douglas discusses his involvement in the JonBenet Ramsey case.
The Unsolved Mystery. Douglas reflects on the ongoing mystery of JonBenet's murder and potential suspects.
The Killers Shadow. John Douglas discusses his latest book about a white supremacist serial killer.
The Lone Wolf Criminal. Exploring the evolution of a criminal who operates independently.
The Challenge of Modern Law Enforcement. Douglas highlights the difficulties faced by law enforcement today.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's good to be seen and it's good to see you.

Host welcomes listeners.

0:59WatchNov 11, 2022

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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