Mindhunter /// Part 1 /// 868 | Forensic Files

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In late 2017, creator Joe Penhal, executive producer Charliss Theon, and director David Fincher delivered to the
world the Mind Hunter TV series. It's a Netflix original based on the 1995 book Mind Hunter inside the FBI's
elite serial crime unit by legendary FBI agent John Douglas and co-authored by Mark Olshaker. The show was a hit for
fans of true crime. Because much of the show comes directly from Douglas's FBI career, the Minehunter book, and news
stories from national headlining stories. Much of Mind Hunter is very real and in fact true crime, but some is
crime fiction. Now, regardless if you have watched this show or not, we are going to be talking a lot of true
crime, especially true crime stories, killers, crimes, and events from the late 1970s
as season 1 is said to take place in 1977 and focuses on the initial establishment
of the FBI's behavioral science unit led by fictional characters Holton Ford and
Bill Tench as they conduct early interviews with serial killers like Ed Keer to develop criminal profiling
techniques and coin the term serial killer. Catching a criminal often requires the authorities to get inside
the villain's mind to figure out how he thinks. FBI agents Holden Ford and Bill Tench attempt to understand and catch
serial killers by studying their damaged psyches. Along the way, the agents pioneer the development of modern serial
killer profile. This is a deep look at the Mind Hunter series and this is True Crime Garage.
[Music] Mind Hunter season 1 episode 1 opens up on Brodic, Pennsylvania. We have Holden
Ford, our John Douglas character, is arriving to a hostage situation. The officer at the scene tells Douglas that
the perp, who has a gun to a woman's head, thinks that he is invisible, stole a shotgun, robbed a liquor store. He was
talking to people that are not there. The wife said that she would leave him if he doesn't go to see a doctor. He is
supposed to be taking medication. The per here in this scene, Captain is Cody Miller. He is asking where is my wife?
Holden Ford again our John Douglas character is trying to arrange it so that this man can talk with his wife on
the phone. He insists that she be there. Holden says, "Maybe I can help." And the
man, Cody Miller, puts the shotgun to his chin and blows his head off right in front of Holden, the police, Cody
Miller's wife, and some onlookers, and the female hostage. Is this story real or made up for the show? While the name
Cody Miller may be made up for the show, the incident is very much real from Douglas's book Minehunter inside the
FBI's elite serial crime unit where Douglas writes, quote, "In one case, somewhat more straightforward than the
Jacob Cohen extravaganza, a guy robbed a bank, then led police on a high-speed chase, ending up barricaded
in a warehouse." That was when we were called in inside this warehouse. He takes off all of his clothes, then puts
them back on again. We see this in the show as well. He seems like a real nutcase, Douglas adds. Then he asks to
have his wife brought to the scene, which they do. In later years, when we' done more research into this type of
personality, he's talking about the perpetrator, we'd understand that you don't do that. You don't agree to this
type of demand because the person they ask to see is usually the one whom they perceive as having precipitated the
problem in the first place. Therefore, you're putting that individual in great danger and setting them up for a murder
suicide. Fortunately, in this instance, they don't bring her inside the warehouse, but have her talk to him on
the phone. And sure enough, as soon as he hangs up, he blows his brains out with the shotgun. So, this incident,
however, did not take place in Bradock, Pennsylvania, but it actually took place
in Milwaukee, sometime before 1975. I'm piecing some of this together because I know Douglas's general history and
timeline and he was working at the field office in Milwaukee as an agent for a little more than 5 years during the
early '7s >> or like the natives say Bill Walk. Douglas discusses this incident on pages
85 and 86 of Mind Hunter. And the situation is, as said, it's a little bit different, but you can see how it was
molded from a real life situation that Douglas wrote about to open up the series and to kind of show you. They
have to show us Douglas or Holden Ford in a different position, which Douglas was before he gets roped into the
behavioral science unit. >> Well, wasn't the idea that if if the gunman didn't have his clothes on that
he was invisible to the outside world? >> Yes. Something to that effect. And I think just like in real life, the
perpetrator on the show takes off his clothes, says something like, "Do you see me?" and then puts the clothes back
on. >> We've all been there. >> We all can see you. The next scene is Holden Ford at his apartment in
Fredericksburg, Virginia. He's washing blood from his white button-up shirt. This is supposed to like signify
Holden observing this very bizarre hostage situation of a very sick man who is clearly needs some strong mental help
here. I think that's where he starts putting thought into this of like these crimes and these perpetrators, these
violent offenders can be much more complicated than just bad guy versus good guy. One, we have to be concerned
about the mental state of the person and understanding that we don't all think the same. We aren't all on the same
level. And that may that may be why some people react the way that they do or behave the way that they do.
>> But I also find it fascinating how when he's cleaning off the blood, it's it's
almost a normal action for him. So I think it also kind of shows that the deeper that law enforcement get into
these situations that they might not behave in ways that we find normal either. To me, I I look at that and I
see him. It's almost like he's attempting to scrub off the blood and it's maybe an attempt to try to forget
how dramatic that night had been or to try to forget like it seems like that that night damaged him or greatly
affected him and he maybe worried that it would haunt him and and therefore trying to scrub out and erase the blood
is almost like scrubbing out erasing the memory of that night. >> Well, and it starts off the series with
a bang, >> literally. The next scene is FBI headquarters. At the FBI headquarters in
Virginia, while Holden is waiting in the lobby, he sets his cup of coffee on an end table next to a copy of Time
magazine that has a picture of David Burkowitz on the cover. And the cover reads, "David Burkowitz, son of Sam,
meets his fate. Now, you don't have to have watched the series. You don't have to have watched
Mine Hunter at all to be tuning in with us this week because we're going to be talking about a lot of true crime that
is all brought up throughout this series. And a lot of these will be cases that you have heard of, maybe some cases
that you're even familiar with, but there will also be some cases that you have not heard of at all. And then for
those of you that have watched the series and wondered, well, what portions of the series are fact or based on real
killers and how they may have morphed and altered some of that information to tell the story to dramatize
the Mine Hunter series, th this will add a lot of clarity. Now, one thing I did because I'm I'm a sick individual
myself, >> super nerd. >> Have not been diagnosed yet. still waiting on a qualified doctor. But
>> you have been diagnosed as a super nerd though. >> I was even looking for stuff in the
background like this like this David Burkit son of Sam meets his fate time magazine cover sitting on this end table
at the FBI headquarters in some lobby there in their in one of their buildings. So I wanted to know more
about that magazine cover. David Burkwitz and Time Magazine. Now, Time magazine extensively covered the case of
David Burkowitz, also known as the son of Sam Killer, who terrorized New York City with a series of shootings between
1976 and 1977. We know that he murdered six young people and wounded seven others using a 44 caliber revolver.
Times reporting captured the public fear in the media frenzy surrounding the case. For example, the magazine noted
how David Burkowitz sent letters to newspapers, including the Daily News using the pseudonym Son of Sam, and
referencing demonic themes. Time also described how the police investigation was going, how it was initially hampered
by misleading eyewitness accounts and fragmented descriptions, was eventually aided by a personality profile of the
likely killer and then ultimately tracked down via a parking ticket that was issued to David Burkowitz to his car
near a crime scene. This leading to his arrest in 1977. So, the Burkowitz stuff,
all very true. However, Time magazine did document the relief and the anger that followed David Burkowitz's capture
and then his subsequent confession. He initially claimed that his killings were ordered by a demon inhabiting the body
of his neighbor's dog, a story he later recanted. Times coverage of this story included analysis of the psychological
aspects of the case, describing Burkowitz as a psychopath with early signs of paranoia. The magazine also
discussed the legal implications, noting that Burkowitz was sentenced to six consecutive life sentences and that his
case spurred the creation of Son of Sam laws designed to prevent criminals from profiting from their crimes.
Some of Time magazine's coverage on the Son of Sam includes the following with the headline nation Son of Sam returns.
This is from June 5th, 1978 and it reads Burkowitz rants in court. When David Burkowitz stood before Brooklyn Supreme
Court Justice Joseph Corso, he admitted that he acting as son of Sam had terrorized New York City in a long
series of killings with his 44 caliber revolver. The former male clerk appeared so placid and reasonable that the judge
agreed with a panel of psychiatrists and found him mentally competent to stand trial. Burkowitz then pleaded guilty to
the murder of Stacy Moscowitz, age 20, and to to five more counts of secondderee murder. This flat and
anticlimactic appearance in court was entirely free of the seemingly psychotic rantings that had filled Burkowitz's
letters in earlier conversations with police. They go on to say as Burkowitz returned to court to be sentenced, it
was son of Sam's turn to put in an appearance. So almost like Burkowitz is one person and the son of Sam is another
person all trapped in the same body here. And it goes on to say, "In a packed courtroom sat Stacy Moscowitz's
mother, and Robert Vilante, Stacy's date, the night of the murder, who is partially blind from the gunshot wounds
he received. While the spectators waited for an hour and a half, guards struggled
to bring the killer into the courtroom. He scratched and bit them, trying to rush for a window. Finally disheveled
and handcuffed, he was pushed into the room. His face was flushed, his eyes bulging. Turning towards the spectators,
he began a singong chant. Stacy was a [ __ ] Stacy was a [ __ ] The spectators, angry, jumped to their feet.
You animal, you animal, screamed. Mrs. Moscowitz. And then the other victim, Robert
Vilante, yells, you should get killed, you creep. As the guards rushed the struggling David Burkowitz out of the
room, he cried, "That's right. That's right. I killed her. I'd kill her again. I'd kill them all again."
>> It was a catchy tune, but it never broke the top 100 in the United States. But I
have a question on the on the profiling because did the profiling start with the
behavioral science unit or did it start before then? >> Um, that's a great question. I know we
talked about the profiling when we covered Son of Sam, which was what, seven, eight years ago. It was a long
time. >> Million years ago. >> A million years ago. But we I also remember we talked a little bit about
this uh these outbursts that took place in the courtroom. Why I hone in on this one is this was a particular article
from Time magazine where he says, "That's right. That's right. I'd kill her again. I'd kill them all again. that
that statement was powerful then and scary then, but also powerful and scary now because David Burkowitz is up for
parole. By the way, I'm hoping at these parole hearings that somebody is sitting
there bringing up that while he has found God sitting in his prison cell all these years and while he's mildmannered
and very polite today, I've spoke to people that have spoke to David Burkwitz, a couple, and they all say
he's very polite. He's very religious. He won't talk about his crimes. >> Yeah, but BTK was very polite and very
religious. I wouldn't want him out on the streets. >> Well, that's what I'm pointing out. With
BTK, it was obviously a facade. With Burkowitz, even all these years later, it could just be that. It could all be
fake. What I'm asking the parole board is to see the man that committed the crimes, not the man that stands before
you 40 years plus later. >> Yeah, I agree. It's probably a facade, but >> yeah, you can't be religious and out
murdering men, women, and children. It just you can't >> Well, well, but >> you can you can pretend to be religious.
You can pretend, you can work as an officer for the church as BTK did, but you're not you're
you're not god-fearing. >> Yeah. But some people have very perverse versions of religion and how it applies
to their existence, >> which makes them completely wrong. So, while the Time magazine looked cool in
the waiting area at the FBI headquarters, the son of Sam David Burkowitz was not featured. He was never
featured on the cover of Time magazine. While the Son of Sam case was a major news event and the subject of much media
attention, obviously Time magazine did not dedicate a cover story to him or his crimes. The magazine focused on the
broader societal issues and major news events, not on individual criminals. But of course, because it's on TV, we can't
see what's inside the magazine. they have to put it on on the cover. >> But it's fascinating because if if it
wasn't for him, how long would these killers go on with profiting from their crimes and watching these new
documentaries that are coming out? The the new documentary on the Deli murders, uh the new documentary on Long Island
serial killer. You wonder if that should extend to some of the family members that are basically advocates for the
killers. >> And there are people advocating for some of these very, very evil killers.
>> Mhm. >> Uh Holden, our character, is told by his superior at the FBI that he will be
teaching hostage negotiations at Quantico. Then we see Holden standing at the podium in a classroom setting,
teaching hostage negotiations to a room full of students. Holden is telling the students about a real hostage situation
that he has personally experienced. He says to the room, "This is where we find ourselves completely out of control. A
fugitive has already killed a police officer that morning in Austin. He's taken two 9mm rounds to the ass, grabbed
a 10-year-old boy as a hostage. He's holding up in a suburban neighborhood crawling with women and small children.
Now, we must focus on one thing, and that thing is deescalation. San Antonio's chief of police arrives
and starts using a bullhorn, which more than effectively intimidates our hostage
taker. This incident is also true. However, just as with the previous story, this too took place in Milwaukee.
And this I actually found on FBI.gov. This was a fugitive hunt by Milwaukee agents in February of 1974 that turned
violent and deadly. And they write there that after Milwaukee was notified that a
murder suspect named Jacob Paul Cohen was likely living in the city, the special agent in charge and another
agent were wounded when they attempted to arrest him. After Cohen took a teenage boy hostage, he was shot and
killed by a special agent marksman. While Douglas in his book Minehunter in the city of Milwaukee tells slightly
different versions of this true crime story, it's real. Jacob Paul Cohen mur murdered two Chicago police officers
during a bank robbery and he fled to 256 North Terrace Avenue in Milwaukee. The hostage was a 14-year-old boy his name
Danny Brady who was shoveling snow before he was snatched up by the wanted man Jacob Cohen. After the incident the
boy was fine but the suspect was dead. He was shot and killed at the scene. The special agent marksman was Douglas's
partner at the time. His name was Joe Delcampo. Holden tells the class, "Our goal is no
body bags. That is the hostage negotiator win-win." After this, Holden leaves the classroom and while in the
hallway, he overhears another class where the instructor is telling the class, "Robert Volante and Stacy
Moscowitz, our two Son of Sam victims that we've already discussed, were making out in their car when David
Burkowitz walked up and shot them both point blank." Burkowitz killed six people over two summers, wounding seven
more. "Why?" he asked the classroom. "Because a dog told him to do it." And as we know this is this portion is true.
David Richard Burkowitz, born Richard David Falco, also known as the son of Sam and the 44 caliber killer, committed
a series of stabbings and shootings between 1975 and 1977 in New York City, killing six people and wounding 11
others. He was armed with his 44 special caliber bulldog revolver. During most of
his crimes, he terrorized New Yorkers with many letters mocking the police and promising further crimes leading to
possibly the biggest manhunt in the city's history. We know that Burkowitz was arrested on
August 10th, 1977 and indicted for eight shootings. He confessed to all of them and initially
claimed to have been obeying the orders of a demon manifested in the form of a black dog named Sam, which belonged to
his neighbor. After being found mentally competent to stand trial, he plead guilty. As we said, he is now up for
possibility of parole after he So, part of his sentence here, captain, was he he
gets six concurrent life sentences in the state prison with the possibility of parole after 25 years. So, he's been up
for parole for considerable amount of time, >> right? >> He did admit eventually that the dog and
the devil story was a hoax. Burkowitz has been denied parole several times and his next hearing is scheduled for May of
2026, which will be here faster than we know it. >> But don't you think it's more
complicated than that? Because we assume he made up this tall tale, but is it possible that part of the tale is true,
but he's telling us what he thinks we want to hear? Now, I think that when you have a city, a whole city, especially a
city as large as New York City, saying before the guy is identified and caught, that whoever's doing this must be a
madman, must be completely crazy. And maybe on some level, Burkowitz did think he was crazy. Sometimes these serial
killers don't understand themselves and don't are not able to have a great comprehension,
>> right, >> of why they do what they do. Burkowitz. I don't think he I mean I don't think he
believed that story because later he tells us that that was a hoax. And what we do know is that working with his
attorneys he they were working on a an insanity defense. They they wanted to get an insanity defense. This was a very
violent man. And and I'm look I apologize because we are very mental health forward on this show and we do
recognize the importance of identifying that and and working on that on all levels, right? No matter what our what
our place in this world is, it's something to be concerned with and something to work on. But so I I kind of
hate to say this next part, but with some of these guys, they're so violent that I don't really care where they end
up. And really in the hardest place for him to escape is where he belongs. I mean, he's incredibly violent. Uh I
don't I can't recall exactly how much of this we discussed when we covered it, but he was a serial arsonist before he
became a serial killer. And he got so much pleasure out of murdering these people that he didn't know, pulling a he
he wanted to be somebody important. He wasn't important. He was nobody. And and really that's part of the why reason why
he taunted police and the public was he wanted to be known. He wanted to go around and hear the the term son of Sam,
the 44 uh caliber killer. He wanted to hear that because they were talking about him,
>> right? >> And so he wanted to be something important. He wasn't important. So he
murdered other people to become important in his mind. If that makes him crazy, then then I agree. Well, you have
to be sensitive to mental health issues, but you also have to be sensitive. >> We have to protect the public.
>> Exactly. >> This guy would This guy would shoot two people in a car and then later return to
that area and masturbate. That's how that's how disgusting and gross and violent this individual was. So, if I
mean, if that makes him crazy, I agree. But I also think he ended up exactly where he should be. Now,
>> he was sick. I mean, he even used lubrication. Now we have standing by a vehicle. This is just outside of one of
the FBI buildings. We have Holden Ford. He's asking that instructor that was teaching the class right about and
talking about Burkowitz. And he says to the instructor how, you know, he the instructor's clearly been
doing this for a while, but Burkowitz is a a recently apprehended killer. And so he asked the the instructor if he
was teaching this stuff before Burkowitz and the instructor replies, "Yes, a version of it." The headline sort of
fell in my lap. So the character, I believe his name is Peter Wrathman. Holden asked Peter Wrathman, "What got
you started?" And he replies, "Starkweather, Whitman, Manson, and of course Son of Sam kind of epitomizes now
is his response." Of course, we know that all of those other people mentioned are all real killers. We have Charles
Raymond Starkweather. He was a an American spree killer who murdered 11 people in Nebraska and Wyoming between
November 1957 and January 1958. He was 19 years old. Starkweather was executed in the electric chair at the Nebraska
State Penitentiary in Lincoln, Nebraska at 12:04 a.m. on June 25th, 1959. That's how things worked back then. He
was he was executed a year less than a year and a half after after the murders. Uh he committed these murders.
Starkweather gave no last words. Fans of legendary songwriter Bruce Springsteen may know this killer well. We discussed
Starkweather briefly in our coverage of the I5 killer. Also mentioned there, Charles Joseph Whitman, somebody that
the captain knows well from doing an episode. The captain along with Justin Evans from the Generation Y podcast
covered the case in True Crime Garage episode 229 this back in August of 2018. one of the
one of the best episodes of True Crime Garage. Some say >> Justin would tell you that.
>> Charles Whitman was a a mass murderer and Marine veteran who became known as the Texas Tower Sniper. On August 1st,
1966, Whitman used knives to kill his mother and his wife in their homes. Then he went to the University of Texas and
with multiple firearms, he began indiscriminately shooting at people below. He fatally shot three people
inside UT's Austin's main building and then accessed the 28th floor observation deck
on the building's clock tower. there. He fired at random people for 96 minutes, killing an additional 11 people and
wounding 31 others before he was shot dead by the Austin Police Department. Whitman killed a total of 17 people. The
17th victim died 35 years later. This from injuries sustained during that attack.
>> Austin has some very infamous shocking crimes. >> Yes. And Columbus, Ohio has shocking
missing person cases. >> Yeah, you'll see that when when we hop around the country and we do these
different cases. There's some states that stand out and Florida, Texas, and Arkansas certainly fall into that
category. And here where we live in, Ohio falls on that list at some point as well.
[Music] [Music] All right, good people. We are back. Cheers, mates. Talk hands in the air.
>> Talks in the air. We love it. We love it. We love it. We love it. >> Mhm. >> We love the tall cans in the air. We
don't love these these killers. The other killer mentioned here is Charles Manson, born Charles Maddox. He was uh
born in Cincinnati, Ohio. We were just talking about >> [ __ ] >> [ __ ] >> [ __ ] Another one.
>> That's okay. We can cut this part out of the show. Yeah. Born in Cincinnati, Ohio. Of course, he was a cult leader
and and musician to some degree who led the Manson family, a cult based in California in the late 60s and early
70s. Some cult members committed a series of at least nine murders at four locations in July and August of 1969.
>> Yeah, I've heard his music, but I you know I prefer Dylan. >> In 1971, Manson was It would be weird if
you if you went that in reverse, right? In 1971, Manson was convicted of first-degree murder in conspiracy to
commit murder for the deaths of seven people, including the film actress Sharon Tate. Manson died in prison on
November 19th, 2017. While True Crime Garage, our fantastic show, the only people pumping out true
crime out of a garage, has never covered Charles Manson. I did discuss him and follower Tex Watkins with John Douglas
himself in our TCG John Douglas the Mind Hunter episode, uh, episode 302 from May
of 2019. I personally have spoken with former Manson family member Diane Lake >> and I think that conversation ended up
on Off the Record. That would be back in the Stitcher premium days. One thing that I thought interesting here, while
it doesn't really mean anything at all when Holden's talking to Peter Wrathman, the three killers that he rattles off,
Starkweather, Whitman, and Manson, the all their names are Charles. They're all Charles. Yeah, that's probably on
purpose. >> So, a bit of a theme there with some of the uh midcentury killers there. Next,
we have we go to the bar captain where Holden meets this young woman. Her name is Debbie. This is going to become his
love interest. I love I love this scene because it it shows the two very different
personalities between Holden Ford, kind of buttoned up, stuffy FBI agent, and Debbie, who's equally smart, maybe even
more intelligent than Holden Ford, but she's she's willing to cut loose, right? She's willing to to be a little more
college student. And she tells Holden that he dresses like a Mormon. And Holden tells Debbie that his dad bought
him the suit that he was wearing, but he had to buy his own sneakers. While there
is a picture, you want to talk about things in the background. While there is a picture of young John Douglas visiting
his folks home from the bureau in his book Mine Hunter, we have a caption below that picture saying, "Posing with
my badge in one of the new suits that my father bought me." Douglas says when he
started at the FBI, he didn't have any civilian dressup clothes. So, my father bought me three regulation dark suits, a
blue, black, and a brown. He also bought him white shirts and two pairs of wing tips, one black, and one brown. So, the
suit statement rings true, but we'll need further research. Further research is needed to confirm that John Douglas
buys his own sneakers. You can send him that email. >> Yeah, I'll I'll I'll ask him.
>> Hey, John, question for you. Do you buy your own sneakers? >> A little interesting detail here as
well. Debbie explains that she is at the bar to watch a band from Detroit. >> And then she asks Holden if he has ever
been to Detroit. And he says, "Yes, I was an agent there for a couple years." When asked where is he from, Holden says
all over, but I was born in Brooklyn. This is all true. John Douglas was born in Brooklyn, New York City in 1945. At
some point, his folks moved out to Long Island. Douglas was in the veterinarian veterary program at Montana State
University for about two years, but in 1966, he began a 4-year enlistment in the United States Air Force.
While in the military, Douglas finished his bachelor's degree at Eastern New Mexico University. So, at one at some
point in one of the episodes, he says when asked where he's from, he says New York or Brooklyn, but it's a bit of a
mixed bag. Well, you can see why it's a mixed bag because he's in Montana for a while in his early life. He's in New
Mexico for a while. He's in Long Island. But we do know that Douglas joined the FBI and his first field office
assignment was in fact in Detroit, Michigan. Douglas was assigned to the reactive crimes unit. The reactive
crimes unit stuff is absolutely fascinating which meant that basically meant reacting to crimes that were
already committed. How do we react to those? So mostly this is bank robberies and extortion. Then we see Debbie and
Holden. They go to the movies. They see Dog Day Afternoon starring Alpuccino. The feature chronicles the 1972 robbery
and hostage situation at a Chase Manhattan branch in Brooklyn. The movie came out in September of 1975 with a
budget of 3.8 million. Dog Day Afternoon took in between 50 and 56 million at the
box. Holden then shows this movie to his students at Quantico. Later afterward, his supervisor suggests that he talk to
someone from the FBI's behavioral science unit. Following this, in the cafeteria, we are introduced to Bill
Tench. Bill Tench is a fictionalized version of Robert Wrestler. Robert Kenneth Wrestler was an American FBI
agent and author. He played a significant role in the psychological profiling of violent offenders in the
1970s and is often credited with the co with coining the term serial killer. Robert Wrestler grew up in North Marura
Avenue in Chicago, Illinois. At an early age, he became interested in killers as
he followed the Chicago Tribune's articles on the lipstick killer. His fascination with serial killers would
later be bolstered by John Wayne Gasey, who had actually grown up in the same neighborhood as Robert Wrestler and was
in the Boy Scouts with him. >> Wow. >> Robert Wrestler was in the US Army. At one time, he served as a marshall of a
platoon of military police. He was in charge of solving cases such as homicides, robberies, and arson. He
studied criminology and police administration at Michigan State University. Later he was reassigned as
the commander of the Criminal Investigation Division, better known as C. He ended his career with the Army as a
major and moved on to the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Wrestler joined the FBI in the same year
as Douglas in 1970. I found this quite interesting. and was recruited into the behavioral science unit, which deals
with drawing up psychological profiles of violent offenders such as rapist and serial killers who select victims at
random. While Mind Hunter on the show presents a significant difference in age between partners Holden Ford and Bill
Tench, there's only an 8-year difference in age between Douglas and Robert Wrestler. And as said, they joined the
FBI in the same year. >> Yeah. But I think, and it might not be true to real life,
but I think in the in the show, not a huge age difference, but they're living different lives. One's single, one's
married, one seems to be more stoic, one seems to be more uh erratic with their behavior. But I also find this series so
fascinating because like you said coining a phrase serial killer but they had terms before that. They just came up
with better terms like they used to say sequence killer and then they >> which they came according to the show
they came up with as well and then at some point it >> evolved into serial killer. It's in this
scene here, Captain, that we see Bill Tench smoke cigarette number one. This is during a lunch scene. During this
scene, Holden tells Tench that he is 29 years old. According to a previous scene, we are to believe that this is
all taking place in 1977 as far as the story's timeline goes. But we know in real life Douglas was
actually 32 in 1977. So if Holden is 29, Tench should be 37. But as I had said previous, it's my belief that
Tench appears to be much older than Holden Ford where we have I I think Tench looks to be somebody in his early
to mid4s, >> but in fairness, he also smokes a pack of cigarettes during every scene. And we
do know that the Douglas character tells Tench that he's 29 years old in that scene. So Tench talks with Holden about
his traveling road school. That's what they call it. They're hitting police departments across the country, teaching
them, as he puts it. They want to know what we know. So the next day, he's kind of recruiting him for this road school.
the FBI going about and teaching these local police departments about different crime trends and suspects and some of
the psychological aspects to crimes and the perpetrators of such. The next day, they go off to Fairfield, Iowa. I
couldn't help but notice in the car as they're driving, the song Hold the Line by Toto comes on the radio. This song
was actually not released until 1978, by the way. Somebody screwed up. >> Well, I do think that while most of the
information out there says that that season 1 takes place in 1977, I think that it would probably be more
accurate to say that it starts off right >> in 1977. >> It's kind of ambiguous. >> Yes. During the car ride, we see Bill
Tench enjoying cigarette number two. Upon arrival, the local media seems to be alert that persons from the FBI are
visiting their local law enforcement. The news wants to know if they are there to assist in the Ada Jeff investigation.
The reporters say, quote, "The woman found behind the church." End quote. Another speaks up and says, "The woman
and her little boy." Tension informs them that they are instructors and that they and then they make their way into
the sheriff's office. While discussing motives with the officers, Bill Tench is smoking
cigarette number three. So, they're trying to teach these officers about motives. Afterward, the agents are
chilling by the pool at the hotel. This is during their downtime. Tench is drinking a beer and working his way
through cigarette number four. back and then they go back to the lesson the following day.
>> Yeah. >> Holden shows the officers a slide of Charles Manson's Ventura, California booking photo. He is
telling them about Manson's life and how he was quote, "Here we have a child who
is unwanted, unloved, regularly beaten, and rep repeatedly institutionalized." Of course, all of this about Manson is
true. the officers mistake Holden's information. So he he's not asking the police for sympathy for Manson. He is
discussing what he believes made Manson. He is saying that we need to do better to understand the criminal during which
Tench has cigarette number five. So now they go to a restaurant after this road school day and we have inspector McGraw
sits down with Holden intent and informs them about the unsolved Adah Jeff murder. He tells them that the land lady
found the bodies. They had been dead for 4 days. Both were bound and sodomized with a broom handle. They attended the
Methodist church. They were devout. Ada was found cuffed and lynched to the bed.
The killer made the boy watch. Tench says that it's a lust murder, but much less about sex or rape, but getting
gratification from the annihilation of someone. McGraw says that there was semen found on a throw cushion, type O
blood. Holden says the killer may have a problem with sex, to which McGraw says that would be a good bet. Yeah, I'm
Look, we all know I love this series and it starts from the first episode to the
theme music, but I think the theme music really captures the essence. This is dark. The I'd say the tone visual the
visual tone is almost gray. But I also like that they don't stray away from the gruesome details, but they ne they never
have anything go too low or too high. It's kind of middle of the road, but I think that shows the realness of the
series and and obviously the the realness and the uh severity of the of these crimes. I'm glad that you point
that out because the longer you watch it or for me anyway that you become so immersed in the whole series that that
kind of gets lost on me at some point. Not to mention I'm focusing in on these really minor details in the background.
But you're right that that delivery is obviously meant to be dark and cold and it has that dark and cold feeling
throughout which is what us lay people kind of think of when we think of serial killers or people that are capable of
this level of of violence or deviency that the dark and cold nature of that. Then Inspector McGraw also informs the
agents that they don't have any suspects, no fingerprints, no shoe prints, and not a single hair. Holden
explains that there is some premeditation here that the killer brought gloves. He then pers out loud,
"Is this about the woman or the child?" Holden, when pressed by the inspector, admits that he does not know what any of
the specifics of the unsolved case means and that we are in the dark. Now, Ada Jeffre, many have wondered, is this
another real life case? And if so, was it solved? So, I couldn't find anything out of Fairfield, Iowa with an
outstanding case of Adah Jeff and her son's murder, but I did find some speculation online about this from a
couple of blog posters. So, the first one reads, "I think it may have been BTK's first and had found out how hard
it is to get clean, keep a clean murder scene when blood's involved. Or maybe the blood part turned him off, which is
why he may had not been so brutal afterwards in his killings. And if he did go back, which is what I assume the
killer the kill aroused him, so he went back and that's when he could finally get his climax. The poster says, "I
don't know. Just a thought really, but I think the mess of the blood is where he
learned it's hard to cover up clean up the crime scene." interesting thought. I think uh that this was a fictionalized
version of BTK's first kill. >> It wasn't, but that certainly makes sense why someone would suspect that as
the show does not clearly inform us very well about BTK Dennis Dennis Rider, a real life serial killer. In fact, one of
the most infamous and recognizable serial killers to this date. Now, we do have a Reddit poster.
This is Time Protection 9775 posted this about the Ada Jeffre case. This poster says, "I've always suspected that the
Ada Jeff case was loosely based on the Priscilla Lee Stroll murder. The incidents seem pretty similar, although
in the show Ada's son was also murdered. In reality, Stroll's son wasn't home at
the time of the attack and he was actually the one who found her body. Right. >> So, looking into this case, if it's a
real case or if it's not or if it's been solved, we have this from the sfgate.com.
A 48-year-old Fairfield man committed suicide after cold case investigators used DNA evidence to link him to the
sexual assault and killing of his childhood friend's mother. So, he was 17 when this murder occurred. This article
is 30 years after the murder. The suspect was Robert Hathaway, who hanged himself and alluded to the 1983 slaying
of 40-year-old Priscilla Stroll in a suicide note, acknowledging that he quote took the coward way out, end
quote. His death happened 4 days after Fairfield detectives interviewed him about the killing and took a DNA sample
from him. This was a court-ordered DNA sample. The case began August 31st, 1983 when the victim's son, 15-year-old Kyle
Straner or Strraner, left his home on the 900 block of Buchanan Street in Fairfield to suspend time to spend time
with friends. He returned about 9:45 p.m. and found his mother naked on the floor. The boy climbed through an
unlocked window, confirmed that his mother was dead, and ran to a neighbor's house for help. officers determined that
Stro had been sexually assaulted and beaten to death. Without going too far into details, it was very extremely
violent, just like the case that they're talking about on Mine Hunters, >> right?
>> Fingerprints and DNA found on the victim's body did not match anyone back in 1983.
But after this guy who was questioned and made to give a DNA sample after he commits suicide, the Fairfield
detectives. So, so what led them to him was they they ran the fingerprints again and
eventually it comes up with a match to this suspect. Then they go to his home. They serve the warrant authorizing them
to collect the DNA sample. He denies any involvement in the murder. And then after the suicide, the state department
of justice lab matched the DNA sample collected from him to the DNA from the slang. So it it was solved, just not in
the manner that we would hope for. Well, back to the first post when they're talking about, well, maybe this is a a
killing from BTK and maybe he learned something from it. So you have organized killers and disorganized. But I also
find it fascinating that some of these killers almost take notes and and change their
behavior. They're trying to commit the perfect crime or they're trying to or they're trying to alter their actions so
they're less likely to get caught. But then it seems like some of these other killers, they get sloppier and lazier as
they go. So, I know we have a category for organized and disorganized. Do we have a category for ones that pay more
attention to detail as they go and killers that get lazier as they go? >> Well, and sometimes they can do both as
well. Like it's really the people that become serial killers. One thing, you know, we always talk about, well, how
can you identify them? How what are their similarities? What do they have in common? Well, one of the things that
they have in common is that they have these fantasies that are all wrapped up in that where sex and violence and and
murder, right, a lot of times are all wrapped up into the same fantasy. >> And so they play out this fantasy in
their minds. They think about it during the day. They think about it throughout their lives. At some point, some of
these people decide to act on it. And what they're what they're attempting to do is live out that that sexual fantasy.
The thing is though, they just have to find some other people to play the roles of persons involved in that fantasy.
>> Yeah. >> What typically will happen is I mean there's a lot could happen, but but two
things that are fairly common. One, that they go out, they they abduct somebody,
they kill them, and they attempt to live out that fantasy, but it's not as good as the fantasy. So now they have to go
back out and try to perfect it. perfect it, meaning getting closer and closer to
that fantasy, trying to get to to it where it's it's like a script and it plays out from top to bottom exactly how
they've scripted it out in their minds over the years. The other thing that can happen is sometimes the first kill or
one of the early kills is the best, meaning it's closest to that fantasy. Things go wrong. It's I know it sounds
like a lot of dumb statements here, but it's difficult to kill people. They're not going to go willingly. they're not
going to play along willingly. And so, a lot of things can go wrong. There's a there's a lot of variables in in the
commission of these types of sexual homicides that you can you can only plan for so much. So sometimes one of the
earlier kills or the first kill will be closest to that fantasy and then things go off and they they're trying to
they're always chasing that dragon trying to get back to back to the first one or the one that was
>> like that initial sexual high. >> Yeah. That takes us through episode one. Episode two opens up in Witchah, Kansas
at the ADT office. So ADT is a security company for both homes and businesses. Here we have the ADT serviceman. See,
he's he's actually referred to as the ADT service man. When you see the uh credits, we believe, of course, in in
the captain and I have seen both series 1 and two, and it's quite obvious that the ADT serviceman is Dennis Raider or
also better known as BTK. >> Well, don't tell me what happens. since I didn't finish season two yet.
>> There you go. So, in this scene, the ADT serviceman is giving the other serviceman the
business. The the man is searching for more electrical tape. >> Yeah. >> And Dennis Raider BTK says that he would
like the cardboard core for the empty roll before he is willing to replace it with a new one.
>> What a doucheber burger. >> Yeah, super douche. um >> super douche. >> But of course we know that this is is
true. Um or at least some aspect of it, some form of it is true because when Raider is eventually
identified and apprehended, we start learning all these things about his personal and work life. And they had a
they actually had a nickname for him >> that wasn't Doucheberger. No, Doucheberger would have been more
spot-on, but I think they were trying to be fly a little under the radar here. And I can't remember. I can't recall the
his I think he was called the blue book man >> because he went he did everything by the
book, >> right? he wasn't at work. And you know how some of us may try to buddy up with
a couple people or we find some people that we really identify with and like and maybe we we have some kind of
outside relationship with them. That's not him. No, he's he's there to do everything by the book. He's also there
to rise through the ranks and become in charge. And he he likes that. He obviously likes having that control and
power over others, especially in a very structured setting. >> There might be some psychology to the
idea of, well, if I act this way, nobody's going to get too close with me, nobody's going to want to be my friend,
and so instead of putting myself out there and possibly being rejected, I act this way. Therefore, I know the reason
why nobody here likes me. Then we go to a plane touching down in San Francisco. Here we see Bill Tench crush out cigar a
cigarette on the plane. That is cigarette number six for those keeping score. And clearly we are. Holden is
trying to convince Bill that while they are in San Francisco, they should visit Charles Manson at Vakavville. Holden
says Manson is 30 miles away at Vakavville. During this episode, they are also in and out of Sacramento, which
is 30 miles from Vakavville. Then they are off to Santa Cruz on their road school stop at the Santa Cruz
Police Department. Bill tells the students in California each year 35% of murders go unsolved.
And he says that's more unsolved murders than any other state. He adds that it has to do with ge with geography, the
woods, the mountains, ravines, and the water and so on. That percentage sounds right. In fact, according to project
cold case, from 1965 to 2019, there were around 128,787 murders in California alone. Over the
years, roughly 79,967 of those murders were solved or saw a conclusion, leaving more than 48,000
unsolved murders in the state of California. Here, this is where Holden first learns about serial killer Edmund
Keer, also known as the co-ed killer. The officer tells Holden to talk to Keer because he likes to talk to cops.
The officer tells Holden that Keer is quote like 6'9", 285 pounds. Holden says, "Kingsize." The officer replies,
"Super king size." The officer tells Holton that Keer killed co-eds, cut off their heads, and had sex with the
corpses. Then he killed his mother, cuts off her head, and has sex with the head
and her mouth. The officer informs Holton that Keer was in a mental institution up until then, up until the
killings started. This for killing his grandparents, but somehow managed to convince everyone that he was
rehabilitated enough to get out. >> It's very surprising that this was never advertised as a family show.
>> Exactly. Now, folks that listen to our episodes, our True Crime Garage episodes
261 and 262 know that that information is all true regarding the giant killer. >> Yeah.
>> Keer was convicted of murdering seven women and one girl between 1972 and April, sorry, May 1972 and April of
1973. years earlier at the age of 15, Keer had murdered his paternal grandparents. And Keer was nicknamed the
co-ed killer as most of his non-familial victims were female college students hitchhiking in the vicinity of Santa
Cruz County, California. Most of his murders included necroilia, decapitation, dismemberment, and
possibly cannibalism. But in the first interview, doesn't he tell Holden that he tried to be a police officer, but
they claimed he was too tall? >> He does. He does. And I believe that is in my my notes for either later this
episode or episode three. >> Always ruining things. >> That's all right, babe. Well, these are
as said >> consistent >> as said, most of these are true stories. So, it's unfortunately dark parts of
history, but it's it's not it's not anything new to anybody that's cut that that's that's following true crime,
especially these these cases, especially the state of California. [Music] Want to thank everybody for joining us
here in the garage. So much more to get to until tomorrow. >> Be good, be kind, and don't litter.
[Music]

Mindhunter /// Part 1 /// 868

Part 1 of 4

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

Tried, tested, and true - one of our favorite Crime series of all time is the Netflix original Mindhunter. Mindhunter is mostly real true crime tales from the F.B.I. Season One kicks things off in 1977 with legendary agents John Douglas and Robert Ressler partnering up and stepping into the minds and the madness of serial killers. Join Nic & the Captain as they celebrate this great series by exploring the true crime tales from the Mindhunters and the F.B.I.

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Brief Summary

Mind Hunter's first episode discusses real-life serial killers and FBI profiling techniques, focusing on the Son of Sam and Ed Kemper cases.

Key points

Mind Hunter TV Series Introduction. Exploring the origins of the Mind Hunter series and its connection to true crime.
Cody Miller's Tragic Hostage Situation. A chilling hostage scenario leads to a shocking suicide in front of FBI agents.
David Burkowitz and the Son of Sam. The infamous Son of Sam killer terrorized New York City in the 1970s.
The Son of Sam's Crimes. Between 1975 and 1977, the Son of Sam terrorized New York City, killing six and wounding eleven.
Burkowitz's Arrest and Confession. David Burkowitz was arrested in 1977 and confessed to eight shootings, claiming a demon made him do it.
The Complexity of Burkowitz's Mind. Discussion on whether Burkowitz's claims of a demon were a hoax or a reflection of his madness.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Maybe I can help.

6:14WatchSep 10, 2025

Tension

45/ 100Some tension

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