Mind Hunter: John Douglas /// Part 2 /// 446 | Forensic Files

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crime [Music] We are continuing our discussion with John Douglas retired FBI special agent
John Douglas you know him from the Behavioral Science unit you may know him from the wonderful show mind Hunter
picking up where we left off we were discussing one of my favorite books law and disorder and in particular the West
Memphis 3 case Mr Douglas when you met Mark buers there was a dramatic contrast to your meeting with Terry Hobs at first
Mark buers was off-put and not very welcoming to your conversation but he very quickly warmed up to you and then
became very much an open book whereas Terry Hobbs put on the facade of being welcoming and interested in talking to
you however as the conversation went along he became aggressive and became dodgy to your questions he want yeah he
very much so he a word got out that you know that that the he wanted to get have
somebody uh get rid of me uh and uh contract have me me killed uh but buyers you're exactly right I when I sat on
that porch of his hot as heck down there sweating and and he got angry as hell and his wife was there and uh initially
I started talking I was on the porch like an hour or so then finally I was invited into the house and I spent hour
hours on hours you know you know with him and just assessing him and I mean I mean he's not the most uh uh stable
person uh at that certainly but he he he didn't kill he didn't kill his you know
his his child a different feel too that I had when I spoke when I spoke to Terry
Hobs and uh initially spoke with him at a shopping Center trying to get gain his
Trust and then when I started gain information on him and he got really pissed off at me when I we were able to
track down uh years earlier uh how he uh broke into a house a neighbor's house and uh as she was taking a shower and he
tried to molest her try to molest this woman he thought that record was purged and it wasn't available and so he had
that he also shot his brother his brother-in-law and he was also extremely violent to his to his children his son
and his young son and daughter and to his you know to his uh his wife uh his his wife is a believer that uh that he
is responsible for that crime but no one's going to really you know you know do it no one's really working it uh as
far as they're concerned it's Sals they don't have to pay they don't have to pay
any money uh to uh you know to uh Daman eckel and Jesse and Jason Baldwin uh any
state money uh because they had the pl the AL Alfred plea uh and uh so to this day there they're sex offenders these
these three I I did a presentation with Amanda Knox and Jesse Miss Kelly about a
year and a half ago up in uh up in New York and uh you can see we just they took a chunk out of their lives it's
like they're it's like they're they're behind developed mentally emotionally because
of the time that would they spent a period of time in their lives in uh in prison particularly uh uh
Damian and and it was the same too with Amanda it's the same same thing speaking
of interviewing parents of victims and also parents that may be considered suspects you were directly involved in
the still unsolved homicide of six-year-old John Benet Ramsay for those who are yet to read the cases that haunt
us can you explain how you became involved in the case yeah I was in um I happened to be in Utah at the time
speaking at a university when I got a call from an investigator who's working on a defense team I didn't know who he
was and uh asked me that if I would like to participate in in the investigation and I and uh I told a colleague of mine
who used to work for me in in the unit I I accepted it and and I said uh this family is guilty you know in the back of
my mind I'm thinking that you know they're guilty because what I was reading in the papers what was being
presented on on television so I I go over and I meet the uh the attorneys at in in Denver and U an old mansion they
have as a uh as an office and inside of what would be the living room there a is
an enclosed ENC casement of a like a fiberglass room within the room and go in there so I'm thinking in the back of
my mind what are these guys going to do they're going to they're going to like offer me money or something they're
going to pay me I'm going to give them a rash of crap man walk right out on them
but I got in there and and I sat down and and they said John we don't know we really don't know we don't know just so
we don't think they did it uh but we we'd like you to take a look what we have can we present to you what what we
have and I said yeah he says but you know uh and they are going to pay me they're going to pay me but to pay
people think I was became a millionaire $1,500 I spent a lot of time I test if IED out there and everything uh and
because once I realized I'm I was not working for I was working for victims I wasn't working for offenders I was
working for victims of a violent crime who had been go who are now in the process of being
revictimized uh by being accused of killing the child but once I saw how how she was how she was murdered and the
things that was done to her that was wasn't all made made uh public uh and and uh parents kill believe me we have had
plenty of cases parents killed but not like this not like this not in this uh with this family this this type of
family you know either uh they don't kill like like this so I did the analysis I I met with the the family uh
and uh went uh first thing I did I went to the house and kind of re reenacted reconstructed things to see where they
were uh their bedroom was was their bedroom was up like an attic that was made into a master bedroom and the
children are on the next floor down and you can't hear anything with the Air Conditioning Heating units going you
really can't hear anything if anyone was down below you uh there uh but I looked
at when I look at a case like that okay you're looking at then I'm looking at pre- offense Behavior post- offense
Behavior what's going on in their lives you know and I didn't see anything in pre- offense behavior that would that
was out of the ordinary unusual it's Chris time they're going to charoy Michigan for the holidays and I think
they're going to work their way down to Disney Disney World uh and I don't see anything there uh now we perpetrate the
crime okay the crime has been perpetrated let's take a look at that and then I saw where the
investigators asked uh John and a neighbor Fleet wood to take a look around see if anything's out of the
ordinary take a look downstairs in this basement so they they go down there us when a parent kills what we found over
the years that the parent the the parent who did the killing it won't be the one
to find the body you'll get somebody else the person with them or if it's searching in the yard or something with
a or a search party they may they are not going to be the one to find the child in this situation here Fleet white
goes down John goes into this room checks it's a it's a wine seller but there's no wine they don't even drink
and there he finds uh uh uh his daughter oh my God my baby he he shouts out and uh she has tape over her mouth her hands
are over her head uh uh tied uh together uh he doesn't know it yet but she is gaded uh and uh he then picks her up
carries her upstairs lays her down in the eventually in the I guess it's in the the living room bunch of people are
up there everything's contaminated uh uh and uh the trying to bring her back to life rubbing her body that's in riger
and uh there's a little bruise on her on her forehead so she has a bruise on her
forehead she uh has been GED they can't even see the G she's been gaded and a piece of the the paintbrush
is used to to for as a handle to Gat her with a rope that in this this nylon rope that
they never found where this rope was that Ramsey didn't have it they find any other pieces of it uh they find wood
fibers from uh from a uh from the same paint brush in a vaginal vaginal area she's been penetrated with uh believe
now with that with that stick that's how that that uh you know got there uh when
they they start the autopsy and they remove the skull or the the skin on the skull uh surprisingly they find that the
skull has been uh cracked open like a like a coconut like 8 8 and 1/2 in in length but why is there just a little
red slight red mark on her forehead and my gosh to break your skull you'd think there'd be some kind of EMA to' be
swelling and blood and uh well why is because the she was dead or on her last breath when when uh the person
responsible wasn't satisfied enough uh with uh with the uh uh with the death itself so he he does her in with it
wasn't necessary for the to kill she's already you know dead from from the uh the garat uh and so uh and then the
letter the other thing the letter right the famous two and a half page letter and the FBI was against me police hated
me around the country and and you know never saw a two and 1 half page letter and you that's right they're right about
that however when would the letter have been written is the question you mean to
tell me that after the the rain tell me the ramies have been murdered now you're
going to write a two and 1 half Page Letter uh uh this threatening letter asking for money and the money coincides
roughly to what a bonus that John Ramsey have but you you going to be pulling in
into this letter different different verses that are coming right out of movies out out of movies like Ransom uh
and uh and you could have the presence of mind to you know to do something like that after after uh the crime no yeah no
you're you're not you're not going to have that that kind of presence of mind so I just saw so many different
different things and you know the bureau they were angry you know you know like I
I may be you know I like when I saw Alex Hunter talking before the public we know
you're out there we know there is more than one of you I know I knew that he was coached by without anyone telling me
I mean I I invented the stuff that that he was being told by by the Agents of of
what to say but I'm not telling I'm not still telling the the the defense what they're doing here what what you know
what their tactics are I'm not doing it I would have loved to been you know been
able to solve that case if it was them to come up and get a a confession out of them but that was not that was you know
not the case and and it was it was a broken man I I've met J several times uh and uh a a broken a Broken Man uh py
Ramsay's stage she was in remission cancer returned she died everyone was waiting for a dying declaration there
was no dying declaration she didn't kill her kill her daughter John is s remarried CBS comes out with a a TV show
with the F so-called FBI some former agents expert experts in quotes and and uh forensic experts and and they and
they come up with this Theory more than a theory but an accusation that that that uh Burke Ramsey is responsible for
the uh you the death I mean I was I was watching that I'm think holy marel you can't say something like that I mean
here Burke is you he's I'm not going to say where he lives but I come across him
over the the years I mean he he did not uh hit his sister accidentally or whatever on on purpose in fact if if the
parents knew that they never would allowed him to talk to the police alone without even the parents the parents in
the presence of of Burke uh so that's another one of these cases is where you know they they what they did what they
did Nick is they and you see this sometimes on cases you you let they let a theory drive an investigation and they
let certain evidence that supports the theory in and they disallow some evidence that doesn't fit the theory out
you know so so they let that theory you know drive it not being driven by evidence of any kind or uh forensic or
uh evidence or whatever uh eyewitness testimony Lettin a Lettin a theory uh and you know why because too because you
had you didn't have a homicide investigator work in that case you had a drug investigator uh working a Narcotics
officer working that case and because they have so few cases they rotate him out there in Boulder and so the mindset
of a a Narcotics officer is different than a homicide officer a Narcotics officer knows comes knows your dealing
knows it's you I know it's you I'm going to make a case on you I'm going to make
it uh you know on you I'm going to build a case all around you informance whatever we're going to get you well you
get that mindset in the homicide case I know you did I know the the certain Behavior py when they brought the child
up uh py was there her fingers were splayed across a face peeking through her eyes and all that other nonsense
stuff no you let you let a uh uh you you let a theory drive your investigation you you were you're into a Narcotics
investigation mindset not a homicide investigators and that's why who's the investigator from Colorado Springs uh L
Smith yeah that's what I was going to say as soon as you are brought in to take a look at the case and as soon as
the famous homicide detective the late great Lou Smith is brought in to take a look at the case the two of you
separately come up with very similar conclusions it's the famous L Smith Intruder Theory I when I when I
testified for the grand jury and then uh he test he testified I guess before I did some a different day and I I
testified afterwards they said that L Smith wanted to speak with me and over in Colorado Springs great guy really
great guy and uh so they drove me over there and and uh I knock on his door and he comes to the door and he said and
introduce ourselves he said John I said I don't know I don't know how you did it it took me 10 months 10 months you
came up with this in 4 days four five days whatever whatever it was and he said and you didn't see everything and
I've got everything I got everything here I'd like to go through the case of PowerPoint presentation and and with you
and I said that'd be great so I went down in his basement he went through the whole case and then seeing even
everything but things I didn't see I just I I just uh certain case had to make assumptions uh everything just fit
and uh then they were coming out that you know that uh that that Lou and myself that the family was
religious that we were that we were being pulled into the Ramses because of uh our faith because of faith and
no we've both of us have been in and investigators of all types will will arrest religious people we don't don't
don't uh you don't care but but if we don't like you know wrongful convi convictions and and destroying the lives
of you know of of people I mean it's terrible to to lose your child but now to be to be accused of killing uh
killing your child and and uh and that's when when you get into Nick the like social media which can be
dangerous a lot of social media could be good where you can develop help and actually can help law enforcement with
leads and people discussion and there's been some websites that been very very successful but then you got others you
know which can totally could jeopardize uh investig investigation and shape the attitude of of people I remember right
after that too I'm on a train going up to New York and and there's a guy in front of me and and this was after I did
an anal analysis I'm back and and and on the night of the crime was like the head
on the night of the crime py was with was with out with her lover and I'm thinking what the hell so I when I get
to New York I call I said I was did was py having an affair with some guy you you're not telling me what are you
talking about and I said this guy but it's one of these rag tabloid things you I saw this on a train no it's garbage
it's garbage but you can see how people see that that kind of crap you know and uh and and and start believing you know
start believing in it and you can't you can't sway their their their opinion at [Music]
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[Applause] today do you think we will ever know who killed Jean Benet I hope so I mean I
don't know you hear different things of a yeah if they brought in they've had some good suspect they
had one good suspect that there they had several I mean uh the the place was full
of uh sex offenders all around the areas where where py and John were living there but then there was one guy who uh
who committed suicide uh he had access to a stun gun see the police discount that L Smith went over the stun gun and
showed me they did they did test with a uh a medical doctor on pigs uh using a stun gun showing the marks of
similarities here I mean hopefully you know DNA familial DNA or something will you know will solve that that case one
one day but I don't know if they're they're working and I hear once in a while you hear like a new attorney
general come in we're going to take a new look at the case or the the uh a prosecutor wants to take a look at the
case but you know hopefully I mean uh it can look at the Golden State case I mean
after all these years I mean we work that case the unit I just worked the I worked when was the East area rapist the
rapes uh that that he was that he was doing and uh we didn't it wasn't responsible it just DNA
DNA got him which was after so many years a police officer uh was responsible we're all very excited for
the release of your new book The Killer Shadow the FBI's hunt for a white supremist serial killer can you tell us
a little bit about your l this book this is a is a different kind of serial killer and it was a case that uh the
first case that the bureau would give me only because they've uh of an supervisor
on the Civil Rights division uh uh Squad up at headquarters KN we knew each other
from Milwaukee division we're on the same SWAT team together and I he knew I was doing this research on serial
murders and go into prisons and he calls me to see if I could be uh be of help so
this would be different Nick this would not be a profile so much as it would be an assessment uh like so you got to kind
of do your an old show years ago was called this is your life you know and uh and they would do this background of
total background of a guy so I would go up to a headquarters and uh yeah it and there was a lot of pressure because if I
screw this thing up I'm just starting to get going here and not not everyone is supportive within the organization of me
doing any of this this research uh they just don't understand you know what the purpose of it is even though we're
helping local police and the later International police departments here so so the assessment is is that the the
latest thing with Franklin is is that he's linked through over 20 homicides He travel he's a he's prolific bank robber
uh he unlike serial killers that have a particular comfort zone for the crimes this guy is all over the place he's all
over the map uh uh he's a bomber some of his cases are bombing uh he is a uh Bank
bank robber prolific bank robber uh he is a it turns out to be an excellent shot with a rifle uh uh in in in fact
he's an excellent shot with only one eye because when he as a youth he lost the sight of eye in his right eye uh in an
accident people think it's said it was a bicycle no it wasn't a bicycle accident
it was a shade and all when window shade with a spring inside he was playing with
his brother the spring came out popped him right in the eye mother took him to the hospital a mother who's extremely
abusive to him a father extremely uh again very very abusive uh to him and and his brothers and and sisters mother
takes him to the hospital the doctor says can't do anything right now well it's temporary but bring him back and
couple of months we'll do some surgery and we'll make his eye good as new she doesn't do that she doesn't take him
back as a young child to the hospital he ends up losing his sight and he then uh
what a way to overcompensate the loss of a sight is to be an excellent shot uh uh
he wanted to be a police officer too another one he said oh another guy wants to be an officer and uh when when he
heard through a neighbor who was a police officer that he couldn't join because of the loss of of one eye he
extremely angry and bitter again towards his uh you know towards his mother hated
hated his mother and his father that's why he would he he would change his name to Joseph his name was James ju he would
change his name to Joseph Paul Paul Franklin and then uh uh he then was gravitated to U these uh
KKK different uh these radical hate hate groups uh American Nazi party passing out literature today he would have a
field day with the internet uh a access uh but then what he realized was because
he was paranoid that uh these organizations were pretty much uh uh infiltrated by FBI by FBI informants and
they were keeping good tabs on them uh on these organizations back there back then and they were primarily you know
talking the talk but not walking the walk and he got became frustrated and uh decided to go out on
his own and and the so-called birth of the the Lone Wolf wolf uh criminal and it just started by tailing interracial
couples first was up in Maryland uh he ma them but then that was after maing them that was the last time he used mace
from then on in he would uh he would start uh using uh uh various Firearms he he shot Larry Flint uh the of uh Flint
uh Hustler magazine he shot he shot him uh he shot uh Vernon Jordan uh civil rights
leader uh you know at at the time he wrote a threatening letter to uh to Jimmy Carter uh Secret Service was uh uh
when he wasn't identified yet was was trying to figure out you know who done it so I what I said was with him the
long and short of it is I came up with an assessment that predicted where he would go in the in the country and that
would be now now that he's a fugitive he's a top 10 uh yeah he committed these crimes all
around these other areas but he's going to it's going to be a homing pigeon now he's going back to mobile it's going
back to mobile and and to Florida he may not be robbing banks because we we'll have a lot of these Banks be notified
staked out and uh but the teletype then was teletypes uh was an internet teletype goes out he's
spotted in Mobile Alabama the agent in charge of the office calls me wants to know the name of the bank or savings a
loan do I think this guy is going to be robbing I said what I said what do he I can't I don't know I you didn't even
know what city he was in I I told you what city he's in so he was there temporarily uh they spotted him
surveillance camer blood bank and then they they uh passed out flyers on him through all these different blood banks
in the in this deep south out in Florida and that's where he would be he would be
spotted uh in a blood blood bank so uh got him there I coached the they'll see I coached the uh the agent on the
interview a little bit uh but then I got to interview him uh later on in the H late 80s 90 90ish uh with with a secret
service agent you would have thought Nick that secret service would have had a behavioral science unit uh over the
years they did not have a unit like we had they they had not done research like we were doing with violent crimes uh at
all and so so I did a couple of cases for secret service over the years that turned out pretty good and so then they
sent down uh a guy great a great guy he's passed away uh Ken Baker Secret Service and and uh we we conducted uh we
some research on Assassins interviewed like squeaky FR who shot Ford Sarah Jane Moore who shot Ford Arthur brema who
shot George Wallace James R Ray shot Dr Martin Luther Luther King and other assassin ation style of per killings and
that's why we interviewed Franklin cuz he had that assassination style of killing and uh the problem is is is that
and we come up with this killer Shadow is that to this day he still cast a shadow a long Shadow uh because there
are others like him out there he's now he's been executed 2013 but uh uh there are others who that
the law enforcement come across of course now and then who uh are emulating people you know like him who who are
being influenced today not so much like the old days where it would be in a some
some hall room or meeting or someone someone's basement now it's on the internet where you can have uh you can
have and there's hundreds and hundreds of sites these uh racist sites anti-semitic sites where where someone
can gravitate to that and not everyone will go will go out and perpetrate acts of violence but but someone may and
someone will will see that and and take action like a you know like this uh uh uh Joseph uh Paul Franklin uh you know
character and so it's and so it's much it's difficult today to investigate them in the old days you had an organization
now you have you have someone who could be influencing others but it's not they're not tied into there's no
hierarchy there's no leader and soldiers you know none of that lieutenants like an organized crime even you don't have
you don't have anything like that so it makes it extremely difficult for law enforcement and law enforcement
resources are very skimpy particularly after 9/11 emphasis was on uh was on International terrorism a little bit D
emphasis on because of resources on domestic uh domestic terrorism so it's uh you it's not over you'll they'll be
others other cases unfortunately uh you know hopefully we can what we we can rely on is is
information from the public when they see someone who's becoming obsessed with with hatred and anti-semitic uh anti-
everything or African-Americans and it's becoming uh obsessed with weapons and other maybe
weapons of Destruction uh law enforcement can't be everywhere at every time so they rely on
public information from Anonymous sources that's what they need to follow up uh the leads to see if this person
you know if they can if will carry out uh a uh you know this you a violent act it's kind of like a school shooter you
mean you have certain indicators but you can't always predict for 100% you can interact inter or intercede and and uh
uh take some action the family or yeah and give this person counseling or whatever uh but very very difficult
very very difficult for law enforcement so they're could to that's what they'll see in this book they'll see the
evolution of him how and and uh kind of like the uh Sunny Bono and Sher the beat
goes on and The Beat Goes On there'll be more unfortunately there'll be more of probably cases like this in in the
future Mr Douglas thank you again for your time today and for doing the interview you've
been more than generous with us here in the garage thanks for having me again and we're working on another one for
next year next year we'll be doing one they want us to do like kind of like an an rule thing like one case that
sometimes be a case that I've worked or maybe case to take a look at you know a new case uh investigate uh try to come
up with a solution or so so me back yes sir as soon as you're done with this next book we'd love to have you back
thank you so much I enjoyed it keep up the good work thank you Mr Douglas for joining us in the
[Music] garage thank you so much for joining us here in the garage letting us be a part
of your week letting us be a part of your holidays Colonel do we have any recommend recomended reading this week
we have a lot to recommend today first off the True Crime garage every single episode archive is available for your
listening pleasure when you download the free Stitcher listening app on your device that's right over 440 episodes to
listen to for free including the last time Mr John Douglas was on the show back in May of
2019 in the John Douglas mind Hunter episode number 302 also we will be recommending a batch of John Douglas's
books we recommended The Killers Shadow last week and you heard us reference in our discussion this week some of his
other great books including the cases that haunt us law and disorder and the killer across the table we will have all
of those great titles listed on our recommended page at truecrime garage.com here's us wishing all of you
and yours a very safe and Happy Thanksgiving be good be thankful and please don't
[Music] live you can start your day off right when you find a professional on Angie to get
your plumbing right first connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well
visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie that

Mind Hunter: John Douglas /// Part 2 /// 446

Part 2 of 2

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This week we are joined once again by Legendary F.B.I. Profiler John Douglas, the Mindhunter. Nic ask questions regarding some of the cases that haunt us. Listen in as we discuss The Zodiac, The West Memphis 3 and JonBenet Ramsey.

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Brief Summary

John Douglas discusses the West Memphis 3 and JonBenét Ramsey cases, sharing insights from his investigations and his new book on a serial killer.

Key points

Quality Sleep at Ashley. Ashley offers top mattress brands at winning prices, helping children in need.
True Crime Garage Introduction. Nick and the captain welcome listeners and share a drink for Thanksgiving.
John Douglas on the Ramsey Case. John Douglas shares insights from his investigation into the JonBenét Ramsey case.
The Discovery of JonBenét. A father finds his daughter in a wine cellar, leading to a shocking revelation.
The Impact of Social Media. John Douglas discusses how social media can jeopardize investigations.
The Killer Shadow. A deep dive into the FBI's hunt for a white supremacist serial killer.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

We're quitting? No, just joking!

Nick humorously addresses the end of the year.

3:27WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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