Off The Recording /// Making a Murderer /// Part 2 | Forensic Files

[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] welcome welcome welcome what is up what
is up with you what's up with that what's up with that that's the greatest talk show of
all time I think uh yeah a little behind the scenes when it comes to uh off the Record or not even off the Record off
the Record off the Record behind the scenes True Crime garage sometimes when we're discussing these cases they get a
little heavy and uh gets me down a little bit so I'll start I we get on the YouTube we get on that YouTube and we
start watching some funny stuff and uh well I think the the especially the what's up with that skit on Saturday
live always like it's if anybody's familiar with it it's it there's no way it can't put you in a good mood like it
it just it puts a smile on my face immediately as soon as I think of I never know that guy's name the the guy
that's pretending Ken Williams I don't think that's right might not be right no but it's it's also similar to
the scene and super bad when he's singing These Eyes yeah these eyes are crying These Eyes
going was you I mean every time I'd be working at the bank and just get down on life I just put that on crack up and
then I'd be laughing for about an hour afterwards thinking about about it so yeah what's up with that what's up with
that so a couple weeks ago I I believe we talked about the Steven Avery case right and more so the documentary Making
a murderer well making a murderer too specifically um you well no no we didn't actually talk about to it oh we didn't
it really was more that I binge watch the first one okay and then I was reading a lot of these um papers that
were being submitted by Stephen's new lawyer uh zelner Katherine zelner which is
basically the main character in making a murderer too which I haven't I didn't see at that point right and I was kind
of speculating on what I thought part two was going to be about talking about a lot of the allegations that were made
against Ryan hillas oh you're you're no you're right because you and I have actually talked making a murder to
off the Record actually off the Record over the phone we should say um a couple that's going to be our third show over
the phone over the phone we've talked making a murder or two a couple times over the phone since and so I'm getting
a little confused as to all the conversations we've had but you are exactly right because we talked here
making a murder the week before the second one was coming out mhm CU I think it came out on the 18th or the 19th of
OCT October which would have been a Friday right what did you do did you try to binge the whole thing so basically I
binged making a murder and then a week later I was binging uh part two which was kind of interesting and I think on
that show I stated that Brendan was released which is not true and I don't know why I I don't even know why I said
that because I I I had no I remember it was there was a lot of posts saying that he was going to be
released uh once you start watching H spoiler alert turn off your turn off your um podcast if you haven't seen part
two but he has not been released and I don't know why I said he had been released they did talk about him being
released um yeah there was a lot of news reports saying that he was going to be released and then he wasn't and I think
at one point you actually agree agreed with me oh yeah yeah he's been released yeah I for some reason I thought that um
either he had been released or he was granted a second trial and maybe the second trial is more correct than well
obviously he's not been released so we know that's not correct well it's really interesting about this case again one
when you go into it never watching it for two years because I I knew a lot about the case or I thought I knew a lot
about the case and basically the way everything was reported I mean you have a mountain of evidence against this guy
this guy seems 100% guilty then you watch the first one and again now people can say this is skewed that this is you
know just going based off of the you know watching the trial Through The defense's Eyes yeah but they did give
some chances to the prosecution I think once you watch that you realize yes there's some evidence
but how did they get this evidence and things start looking a little shady as far as police work
prosecution and really what I think their point was was can you get a fair trial if you don't have money well what
was interesting was Steven was awarded a settlement as far as his wrongful conviction so he actually had money to
fight his case his nephew Brendan did not have money and we saw how well that went for him uh I think that is a case
that could have easily been won then obviously um it wasn't won he's Behind Bars and now you know now it's
this whole tough process to get him out of jail which is almost impossible but it's like if you're going to make it
like I said before if you're going to make it impossible for somebody to get out or nearly impossible make sure you
put the right person there you know when you have somebody that denied being involved over 70 some times and then you
take their confession I just I I this is a practice that doesn't make any sense to me you denied it 70 some sometimes
and then you started confessing and now we're going to put you in jail for that I mean frankly just
ridiculous well I'll tell you what and I'm not going to fake it Captain but I have actually not finished season two
yet yeah at some point you started watching but you got mad about something well actually okay so three things have
happened I've given it a good try okay and I will complete it I will finish it uh oh yes it will be mine um so the
first night it came out I was kind of stoked because I was like I'm going to watch a movie and then I'm I'm going to
do one or two episodes of uh making a murder or two and I think I got either halfway through the second episode or
maybe I made it into a third episode yeah and I got angry and it it was a combination of alcohol and anger like
right and probably sleepiness so you know I had the the the trifold the tribunal going on there right now tired
drunk and angry and the thing that made me angry was there were Parts where and forgive me if I got this wrong I already
disclaimed I already told you I was drunk right um there were Parts I think in episode 2 or three where some people
were were picketing outside of one of the cour houses right and I saw the hallback family like her parents and it
freaking broke my heart man like it made me and look should we have the right person
behind bars absolutely nobody's arguing that situation you know we're not going to try to make a family feel better just
by locking any old person up right but the thing that really I really had trouble with especially in that moment
sitting on my couch just watching just being a casual Observer was these poor people not only did they lose their uh
intelligent driven professional beautiful young daughter who was you know just coming into adult life and and
you know probably just a year or two out from setting off on her own completely but they lost her and now
this this thing just doesn't seem to end you know it's like there was a trial that they had to sit through and I and I
tell you what there two trials yeah and a lot of these victims families will tell you you know it's horrible that our
our our son daughter brother sister mother father was murdered taken away from us but it was it was brutal to sit
through the trial and then they have to sit through two trials and then essentially making a murder the first
season wi which is like what took like 9 10 years to film mhm so once that comes
out it's like now there's a whole TV trial a whole Netflix trial going on it's like a third trial for these poor
people right and this this case became a real Hot Topic and and whether you thought he was innocent or guilty there
was arguments on both sides and and that is really kind of what stem the conversation and and like you
said now you have this conversation that's happening worldwide and it's almost like the
events are happening all over again and you've known me longer than most and I think you back me up on stating this
that I'm I'm always have been a backer for freedom of speech a backer for uh the right to assembly you know so I
don't want to I don't want to say hey the picketing really pissed me off or these people have no right to shout
their chance or hold their signs I don't want to say that at all it just I think it could have been done a
little more with with respect to the victim's family regardless regardless of who
murdered her they are the victim's family right the what's happening though is that you're you're having a situation
where people feel so adamant about his innocence that they're going to stand outside and pick
it and if you feel that adamant really essentially you're going okay look we understand that you're daughter died but
we have this guy that is losing his life there should not be a second life lost right and and so I I don't know I mean
it's it's like it's a touch touchy thing and I think when um when the filmmakers
are asked you know about you know the first season not having her story that much involved in the telling of their
documentary I mean they come out they're honest they said look we we gave them every opportunity to be involved MH and
they didn't and this time there was uh I believe a friend and maybe a couple other people that were involved that
gave them some pictures and some videos and and they get to talk about her a little bit more but
um you know I think it's it's really about trying to find the truth and it's interesting to me CU I I really want to
know one has the family seen these documentaries has this persuaded them at all um
because we've seen this with other documentaries where they're calling for the heads of the West Memphis 3 and then
by the second or Not by the second but by the third documentary they're coming out saying hey we believe these kids are
innocent and now we need to find the real killer Yeah well yeah that's a good question and I would I would wager that
probably some have some haven't that that's what my gut says because you know there's got to be some people in the
family that are saying I'm not watching that regardless because I I've seen maybe I've read an article or I've heard
the chatter and the chatter seems to be that they're trying to paint a picture of Stephen Avery being innocent now I
tell you what the the second season to me so and I will finish it like I said I've sat down and watched a couple more
episodes since that night that I got angry Well here here's what it's really good for I mean by following Katherine
zelner you really get to understand what the appeal process looks like and how the lawyers have to go about it I mean
she breaks it down into sections I need to do this and then after I do that we're going to have to do this and
what's really interesting about her one she is she is definitely a badass and she's definitely very
intelligent now what I don't know very intelligent is is a is correct it might be an understat right I think extremely
intelligent yeah or just maybe she's just really extremely intelligent in this one area I don't know but but like
you said badass and for me I was going to say I think the second season is quite a bit slower to me than the first
season and I think that might be because there's not as many aha moments like the
first season had well actually I think there's more a moments in this one it's just the stuff in between I think the
first documentary when you would see his mother sitting alone at the table like you're willing to kind of sit through
that uh the second time around you're like okay we've seen this scene before move on right let's let's I mean they
could have cut it down I think it was 10 parts or whatever it was I mean they could probably cut it down to six um and
there's already talks that there's going to be a maker and a murder three mhm and
but one one of the things I really liked about her and I don't think it's been talked about enough is is I actually
don't think that she really gives a [ __ ] about her client when she's taking a case and what I mean by that is I think
she gets wrapped up in the case and then she want and then she wants to know what
happened so well why not take the case right because if you take the case you're going to find out really quickly
whether or not you think stepen did did it or not yeah and then after she did her initial testing and her initial
interviews and all that stuff she comes out on the other side and goes okay this
guy I believe is innocent so now I need to find the truth and I actually think she's more interested in finding the
truth than she is getting this guy out of jail and that I actually applaud her for that because I just think that's
something that everybody law enforcement prosecutors detectives defense attorneys
that's they should be focusing on is the truth and and and as much as we can sit
there and say these Piers you know are harmful to the family of Teresa well so are the prosecutors if they're getting
it wrong so are the detectives if they're doing something unethical to get evidence MH so I mean I think there were
again spoiler alert there's some pieces of evidence that are very interesting like once you get to the mapping of the
scent dogs and the caver dogs all the hits that were made were not on the stepen Avery property were not on the
Avery uh junkyard basically is what it is and it's all on this other property behind the Aver's property and that to
me is one it just proves again the prosecution went into the case saying this is how the how the murder took
place it is Def not how the murder took place she was not killed in that room I can say that with 100% certainty why
can't I say that there's no DNA evidence that she was actually in the trailer there's no blood evidence that she was
in the trailer so if you're going to tell me that she was raped and murdered in his bedroom well where's the evidence
of it so and they kind of changed that story when they were at trial anyways and then they said well that didn't it
didn't happen there it happened in the garage well interesting thing about the garage
is there's bullets everywhere they found bullets everywhere on this property why
because the person that was the landlord of the trailer shot 3,000 to 5,000 bullets and then they they do these
ballistic tests and they can if you shoot a bullet through the garage it looks exactly like the bullet that they
claim killed Teresa and what's interesting is there's no bone fragment on the on the the
bullet there's no blood on the bullet there's something red it's called Paint there's no DNA evidence well there is
DNA evidence but what's really strange is when they're they're Lo they're showing two bullets side by side they
they they walk you through this test what's interesting these bullets look exactly the same except for one has a
waxy film all over it and the guy doing the test is like just never seen that doesn't make a lot
of sense to me so we have Teresa's DNA evidence on this bullet and then you find out that there's a list of items
that they collected from Teresa's house Combs toothbrushes chapstick mhm and there's
this huge list and what is funny to me is where did they take these pieces of things from Teresa's house did they take
it to the police station no did they take it to some crime lab no they took it to the Avery auto
junkyard now why would you take that stuff while you're doing a search that is just unethical to me
right so now you have this bullet that you're trying to tell me was used to kill this girl and there's no evidence
of it and if there is DNA evidence well it doesn't take a rocket science doesn't
take a rocket scientist to make the leap that possibly you took that ChapStick and rubbed it all over that bullet MH
and there's and even if you didn't you can't you should not and cannot bring items of evidentiary value that
could have DNA or anything else on hairs fibers anything else on them to to the crime scene to what you claim to be the
crime scene right and these are items that you went to her house knowing that you're trying to collect DNA evidence
then you bring it back here it's ridiculous and the other thing too is it's logic people with these cases what
I'm so sick of is when I'm getting feedback from individuals where it's like logic goes all out the window look
explain to me a better way that there becomes a waxy substance all over our bullet
and a scientist that studies ballistics says I don't I don't know I've never seen this before could
chapstick be the reason for that yes could be now is there another reason possibly but by watching these things
and and doing the research on what evidence they have I can't come up with another explanation off the top of my
head so logic tells me that there's something fishy here the other thing too is when you have a key that is
supposedly trees's key that they find days later after they didn't find it and it only has Stephen
Avery's DNA evidence on it what did he do did he clean the did he clean the key off MH and wipe all of her DNA away I
mean we're talking about a key that has little cracks and cices you'd have to get in there to make sure you clean all
those it's stuff like that that just doesn't add up or the fact that the cadav dogs or the scent dogs do not hit
on the property I mean they'll hit on like bordering bordering areas of the property but the main areas that they
hit is where Bobby dassie claims to be hunting and they also found this pelvic bone the and this is the stuff that
drives me nuts you find this pelvic bone but you can't prove that it's hers I mean that that stuff is strange to me
and and not just just on the def not whether or not he's guilty or Innocent but just on the idea that we have this
evidence and we can't prove what it's from you know is it what was the size of the item though I mean it was relatively
small but had the same markings of the bones that they found in the fire pit but
again this barrel uh you probably haven't seen this part but there's this Barrel um so they think there was a one
burn burn sight and that would have been down where Bobby was saying that he was
hunting so they claimed that there was a burn sight then they think at some point
that there was these big metal barrels that they think they somebody put the remains because the body wasn't burning
hot enough that they took the remains and they put it into one of these barrels and then they burn longer right
in the barrel and then from from there they took the barrel put the rest of the room remains into the fire pit behind
Steven Avery's house now if you would have told me this before I watched both the documentaries I'd go you're full of
[ __ ] that didn't happen but when they can scientifically prove that there was a burn here burn in the barrel burn you
know uh I don't know if they can prove that there was that any of the remains were actually burned from the fire pit
also when you do one of these when you have a fire pit and you're going to collect the evidence of
that you take picture upon picture and there's no pictures taken by law enforcement now again I don't want to
beat beat the drum of law enforcement they have a million things to do they're going to get a couple things wrong
but it's just weird stuff like where they they they check these barrels for example and there's no human remains
found there's no bones found and then 3 days later they check it again and all of a sudden they have
remains they have bones it's like that stuff is what drives me nuts how how can you check something on a
Wednesday and then on a Saturday you check it again and now you found something mhm like too many times of
that that's very fishy and I really thought that part two was going to go after this Ryan
hos I mean interesting stuff like I said before he had bruising on his right hand
uh the way Katherine zelner believes that the crime happened was somebody was striking her uh you know behind the SUV
that the SUV's door would be open the rav four and so could somebody get bruising on their hand by using a weapon
like that definitely then you have claw marks on his left hand that's suspicious
and the other thing what kind of weapon sorry um the they're saying you know something like a hammer or a you know
like a blunt object with the rear RAV four door open yeah because of the way the blood uh where they found blood yeah
and the castoff there's the cast off and the way they believe it now look I don't
know I mean that could they could be wrong on that the other weird thing about Ryan hos
is he has her day he has her planner he has at least a page of her planner mhm now now if if you believe anybody's
story on how this happened she would have had her planner with her so how he got this planner and this information is
extremely odd um and maybe there's a logical explanation maybe when he was searching
and they found the vehicle maybe he took the planner I mean this guy's lawyered up and he's not talking to anybody but I
really thought that part two was going to be really going after this Ryan hos guy and he was also involved in the
search just like I said on the last episode he was on I believe I said that if we're repeating anything it's because
we just have these long conversations and then we just sent them out to the universal no you you did talk about the
search But but so but but he was searching the property with In Cahoots with law enforcement they're not finding
stuff one day two days later finding something in the same spot they looked this guy has access to the property and
then then the other thing about it too is like uh there was eyewitness that claims that they saw the Rav 4 driving
with a white Jeep um there's there's that but there's also what I said before when they're doing
these searches you have to check in and there are several times that Ryan hos did not check in so he didn't it that
seems suspicious and also when people ask you if if you're doing parts of the search and you state no but you actually
are a part of the search you're lying uh I so that's where I thought they're going to take this but I actually again
what's so interesting about Katherine zelner I don't think she cares about anything I think she only cares about
the truth and that's it and I think she even if she loses a case I don't even know how much she cares if she loses the
case I think the loss to her is if she doesn't know how this took place and who was responsible for it and so I really
thought again like I said to go out after Ryan but this they really go after Bobby dassy and uh Scott which would be
Scott would be the stepfather of the dassy boys now Brendan's in jail for falsely confessing to the crime I
believe he falsely confessed but you have his brother Bobby dassie and Bobby there's just certain things you
know when I watched the first part one what stuck out like a sore th is when you see this
ex-boyfriend acting weird gumping during interviews that stuck out like a sore thumb when I'm
watching part two The Stepfather starts talking about this has been hard on the whole family there's Vic there's victims
upon victims here you have the victim of you know tce is the victim if you're wrongfully convicted of something you're
a victim the family's become victim VI IMS the friends become victims so Scott is kind of talking
about that saying man you know our whole family's been affected by this but nobody more so than Bobby and then at
this point Bobby has never visited his brother now his brother's slow right that's probably the best word to
use and you believe that he didn't commit the crime he denied it over 70 some times
and youve never once visited your brother in prison that's what that's what they
state that he he believes that he's innocent or or do all we know is that he's not visited the brother all we know
is that this has hit him really hard he's really depressed about it so he's so upset about it that he has never
visited his brother and prison and for whatever reason that stuck out as like a sore thumb and
we I'm going to try to pull it up um we can kind of talk about something else as
I I try to pull it up because I don't want to spend uh my my final review on it is it's a little slower than the
first one takes a little bit little more work to get through but you'll have a way better
understanding I feel like I I went through a class on how the appeal process works how difficult it is um but
also you I think zel is so interesting to watch and just the fact that she's interested in the truth um I think
is so interesting so well the thing that I like and like I said I I haven't found the so far the second series to be
as entertaining as the first series now I should throw this out there I don't seem to share the popular opinion in
this case and maybe I will at some point but I don't yet and I haven't all along um so I'm not as fired up about it
as some are now I will say this the person carrying the show for me the entertainment factor for me is Kathleen
zelner I mean she's she's brilliant to watch uh she's tactful smart and the thing that that I like about Kathleen
zelner so much is it seems and I don't know for certain cuz I haven't finished the second series but
it seems like like just what you said she's more concerned about the truth than anything else but not only like you
know I've praised other defense attorneys on this show before stating hey look it it's really truly their job
to make you at the end of the day question the guilt of their client and it seems like zelner not only will make
you question the guilt of Steven Avery it seems to me like she is dead set on going going after someone not only
proving not only suggesting or proving that he might be innocent and not guilty but also pointing the finger as to who
done it you know or or leading you to a better suspect or at least somebody that
has as much evidence as her client I right but I think if you watch the rest of two I mean it's not at least she like
she says no no no matter what we're doing she said we're we're looking for evidence right if we're going to appeal
something in court today we're still looking for evidence then you get on these stupid sites I'm I just pulled
this up I'm trying to look for Bobby dass's uh Google searches but it's it's stuff like this where it goes you have
to weigh the state's motive with Bobby's motive again this idea that the cops killed her then planted all all the
evidence says stuff like Bobby couldn't get a key uh if Bobby followed trees off the
property he could get her key Bobby didn't plant the bullet fragment no he didn't but again I've said this before
Stephen could be guilty and the police planted evidence right he doesn't have to be
innocent for them to plant the evidence it could be both but again in this case well if Bobby did it the police could
have still planted evidence to try to get a conviction on Stephen Avery but what I okay we covered a case Kim wall
right that is invited onto the Submarine by this lunatic mhm he might be very smart he might be an
inventor but he is a lunatic oh there's smart and dumb evil out there he yeah no
this is beyond dumb evil this is this is the worst kind of evil this is smart evil to me he was smart enough to get
this intelligent person onto the the submarine but this person had such a sickness with what they were searching
and what it took for them to be sexually gratified however you want to look at it but in that case the
searches get darker and darker and darker throughout the years and what happened we have a dismemberment and I
think when you have a dismemberment of the victim you're talking about a whole another level of sick I think the the
motive becomes sexual becomes you know also their motive is uh to be to to rape to torture and then the
dismemberment I think that is what their motive is and when you look at some of the stuff that Bobby dassi is searching
on his um on Google it's pretty clear that you're dealing with a a very sick individual well somebody that has and
that and unfortunately you know you there's often that question of what what are some similar traits that you
can find in serial killers there's always that question people always want to know that now one similar trait then
they don't all share all the same traits you can't just look at a person and and
observe them for a short period of time and and figure out if they are are a serial killer or have the potential to
be one uh just by looking at a brief window into their life you can't do it but what I can say this is is this that
the ones that have been honest or upfront with a lot of their childhood their teenage years and
their adulthood and have confessed to crimes murders and and even you know some of
the worst atrocities we've we we have discussed on the show one thing a lot of them will say is that at some point in
their life violence and sexual fantasy got all wrapped up in to one right and at some point the sexual fantasy didn't
exist without violence and violence didn't exist for them without sexual fantasy they all become one at some
point and Peter mson the guy from um the submarine who killed Kim wall he I believe was probably a Serial murder in
the making right that was we were lucky unfortunately for Kim she was the first victim I believe um but you know and I
don't I don't know with him you know cuz all of their their sexual violent fantasies are different they are unique
to them I don't know that dismemberment is a is a sexual fantasy for all of them
because dismemberment also is a means of concealing what you've done or hiding the body which may have been the case
with Kim wall we can't be certain we there's no way for us to know exactly what pet Madson
thinks um and maybe in Teresa hallback's case I think I mean you you have some interesting things that this individual
was searching for on his computer um but hers could be the same thing it could be that could be part of
the violent murder sex fantasy or it's you know you have the the murder sex fantasy and then the dismemberment as
just a means of concealing the body yeah and or in this case is it framing somebody you know well and you had this
um CD ROM with all this information on it and basically when you go to trial you go through points of evidence and if
you have something and I have something and we both have knowledge of it but we don't think that it matters to the case
that I will agree not to bring it up if you agree not to bring it up right and they do that so your your your right to
a speedy trial now in this case what the prosecution did was kind of lump this all together they claimed that it was
the dassi family computer again here here's my issue is when you start lying you have internet
at the time the authorities know you have internet at the time when the mother of Bobby and Brendan dassy is
lying and saying we didn't have internet at the time we didn't have a computer at
the time well if you didn't then why would law enforcement seize information off your computer that's not how it
works you had one so they seized the information off of it he was looking up stuff and and in the documentary you'll
see a list and they'll go through it and I slowed it down just to look at some of
the stuff but not only was he watching violent porn he was watching women being tortured but he was also downloading
these images and it seemed to get darker and darker I mean I I don't want to say these things out loud but
once you see some of the list I'm trying to actually find the list but I can't find it
on I just found it the other day and for whatever reason I cannot nope that's not it either um but
some of the the searches that he did was just horrifying horrifying is the only way to
put it it's stuff that you would never think to search yourself but on top of that you would never think that anybody
else would bother to search for those things or even have any desar decapitated women or drowned women uh
deceased women drowned women um drowned girl drowned girl nude drowned [ __ ] fast car accident gun to head uh knife
goes through Skin Rotten girl now that's just a list that's just a couple right there there could there's
likely more right if look if you're searching for drowned girl nude you got some
problems use a piece of [ __ ] use a horrible piece of [ __ ] in the making now why wouldn't you go visit your
brother maybe because you committed the crime and now your slow brother is in jail because of this he's in prison he's
wasting his life away because of a horrible thing you did you know and then the can they prove
that it's his computer yeah I mean cuz I mean if it if it was the family computer I mean
technically BR could have been looking up some of this stuff right or or or a whole bunch of people were looking up
things and making the list you know what I mean like right maybe somebody's looking up a few different things and
somebody else is looking up a few of these other things that that you mentioned but the the thing that's crazy
too Captain is well I just want to stick on this point for a second though we have situations where Scott the the
stepfather has lied and we know that for certain and we same thing with Bobby dassi the same thing there's little
parts of his story that don't line up what he told police and then what he told on the stand they don't line up to
make any logical sense and so look I'm not saying he he he's the murderer what I'm saying is it's interesting that
we're looking into him they're to try to find who the real killer is what I also
find interesting is there's a phone call between um Stephen and his sister and she's gone you need to tell them to stop
and what this [ __ ] is doing okay what she is doing is she says multiple times on this call you're going to end up with
a dead sister and what and this is the fact that you would even threaten that makes you a horrible person
basically what she's saying is you tell zelar zelner sorry zelar from from Pluto
um you tell zelner to stop going after my family basically telling her just look
somewhere else don't look at us right don't try to find the truth and what does Stephen Avery say over and over on
the phone he says hey she's just going to go where the evidence takes her she goes oh so my my my life can be
ruined blah blah blah right right and at some point Stephen's like well that's that's what happens you know
why was he searching this stuff on the internet now whether you think he's guilty or innocent one of the things I
find interesting about Stephen Avery is he's confessed to a bunch of his crimes that he's been caught for there's two
crimes that he's never confessed to one that he was wrongfully in prison for and
this one I find that fascinating um but to be fair to to make that statement completely Apples to
Apples I'm just saying I'm just saying it's interesting to me I'm not saying that I it makes me believe him anymore
I'm just saying I just find that interesting no it's interesting but I mean to be to those of the people there
are people listening to this that don't know exactly what we're talking about and so to to be fair and make that
statement Apples to Apples those are none of those crimes are rape or murder right
CRI and there they nothing near they're nowhere near the the end of the spectrum where you would find rape
and murder yeah yeah and uh yeah and look again you know to play Devil's Advocate I mean Bobby could have
tried to tell him what he knew he was also pretty young at the time could he misspeak when he talked to the police
could he misspoke a little bit when he talked on the stand possibly that doesn't mean he's necessarily a liar
again are these searches his maybe they're not his maybe they're Scotts there's somebody in the house that's searching
that maybe it's Brendan's maybe Brendan has me fooled maybe he denied it 70 sometimes and then finally he told the
truth um do they have a date did they ever put include a date of when that those searches occurred so um was it
before and after the killing I'm not for sure I think it was mainly before because you would you're talking about
the this stuff is seized pretty quickly so it would have probably just been before the murder but what's interesting
too so he's on the phone Stephen Avery's on the phone with his sister and they're
going back and forth and Stephen's not really raising his voice he's just saying hey we're going to you know
Katherine's trying to get to the truth wherever the evidence takes her she's going to go and she's going to keep
trying to find the truth and if and if your son has nothing to hide she shouldn't be worried about this right
cuz she's going to find the truth and then she keeps on bringing up stuff he goes well I don't know cuz I didn't do
it then all of a sudden Scott comes on in the background yelling screaming and at some
point he's like I'll put you in the ground he's making death threats you have a guy that's accused of torturing
raping and murdering by strangulation slash slitting the throat slash shooting in the head that's what he's convicted
of and this guy doesn't raise his voice once the guy starts saying hey we're going to put you in the
ground step doesn't raise his voice now for some people they would go who who cares man I think there there's
little points that I think people casually Miss and I think that's a big deal you know um but Stephen is making a
case for his innocence and always aware that his conversations are being recorded right but they also know that
their conversations are being recorded as well right but they they have nothing to prove he does well but that's what's
also interesting to me because two people are behind bars for a murder and you start pointing the finger
at me maybe I did it right mhm should I get nervous you got a long ways to go you
can't try me for something when there's two people behind bars mhm they have to get out first doesn't even look like
they're ever getting out so why would I be nervous why would I be trying to prove
something the person that's trying to Pro prove something is the one that starts talking the one that starts
defending themselves Stephen Avery wasn't defending himself on the call what he was saying was zard is trying to
get to the truth wherever the evidence takes her that's where the it'll be the truth right and then you have another
individual on the phone that starts screaming starts shouting starts stating his case why waste your time you don't
need to State your case you got two people in jail for this crime so what that they're throwing a little
shade on your name what does it matter MH your life's already messed up anyways you're you know what I mean I just think
um well there's one thing to say a little shade what I'm saying it's it's telling it's like yes do you want to
be do you want any evidence or any conversation saying hey it could have been could have been
you Scott could have been you Bobby MH no you don't want that obviously but you're going to get that when you lived
on the property so and I'm sure they got it before so I just find it funny that you
have somebody you know acting a fool you know when he doesn't have to Pro like you said he doesn't have to
prove anything the one that needs to try to prove their innocence is the guy that's saying hey let the evidence tells
tell us what happened mhm and I find that I just find it interesting I'm not saying it makes me lean towards innocent
or guilty or whatever but I'm just saying because a lot of people out there like they want to know do you find him
innocent or guilty what's wrong with saying I don't know you know oh there's there's nothing wrong with that and
here's the other thing too um you know I obviously I lean toward him being guilty
and and probably in In fairness to the documentary I I leaned further that way before um I do think like like you there
are some interesting things in season 2 that look there there's questions that have been raised all along since since
this trial the original trial or the second trial actually I don't I don't think if I remember correctly now mind
you again I apologize I watched the first one when it came out so it's been a long time and I've not Revisited the
uh first series but if I remember correctly the first trial didn't go Avery's way at all and
it wasn't until the second trial that there was really some questions being presented uh that may have favored Avery
rather than the state's Theory the state's case yeah well again when the state starts off with the idea and then
Midway through the trial changes it it's kind of something's wrong with that theory
you didn't you didn't have you didn't have anything right before you started the trial you know so now you're just
changing your story I mean some of the stuff that the prosecution did I mean they should all have been fired for it
you can't go out there you have no evidence if she was raped or tortured you have no evidence of this and you're
going to go out on TV and start saying that this is what happen I mean you want to talk about you
want talk is that right though because you do have the confession of dassie right but anybody
with I even think with the level of intelligence that Brendan dassi has with that level of intelligence you would be
able to understand that that confession is nothing but a bunch of horeshit and I'd argue with anybody about that one
there's no piece of evidence no I know I know but what I'm just I'm playing the other side side of the fence no I
understand that but all I'm stating is you say there's no evidence that there was a rape or a torture but what I'm
saying is they but in their possession they hold a uh confession that states that that that was the
case but no evidence of it so we have a confession I mean one of your jobs is when but the confession is the evidence
no no the that the you're that's heay that's here pH you're stating physical evidence is
you you to be clear you should say physical evidence because when you say there's no evidence here's there is you
have a confession right right you have an eyewitness statement saying that there was rape and torture right which
any statement that you receive is going to be hearsay until you can back any of it up but guess what you can't back any
of it up because you you have a guy saying that her her feet were bound with uh shackles metal shackles no evidence
of this her arms were uh tied with rope no evidence of this her throat was slit no evidence of this there's blood
everywhere no evidence of this not we don't even have evidence we don't even have DNA evidence that she was in the
trailer so therefore everything he said was here say because you can't back it up and that that's my issue so yeah I
mean if you want to say that's evidence my next thing would say well that would be evidence if you could
prove what he was saying was correct and you and they C it and then on top of that all that information that was given
was given to him in the confession and then he had to sit around and guess what they want I mean where what did he do
with the gun he shot her in the leg no he shot her in the stomach no he shot her he couldn't guess the head so then
the detective has to come out and say who shot her in the head head that's not evidence
so I don't know I mean so I think it's but you want to talk about being horrible to the family they have a
freaking press conference where you sit there and talk about how their their daughter was raped and tortured when you
have no evidence of this I mean it's ridiculous you know and they basically told the whole confession the whole
[ __ ] confession that they got that they manufactured once they manufactured it
they get release it to the public that's just it's ridiculous so I don't know I mean I would be
surprised I I just find it very interesting I'm not one to change my mind often but to walk into a situation
where I find this person to be guilty of sin and you know you get burned to death
for all I care you know I just say these nonsense stuff at at crime con never watched the
documentary then I watch the first one I start going okay well there's something
here and there's this confession is complete Malarkey it's complete horseshit okay then you get to the
second one and by the end of the second one I can't stick with the I I can't even lean towards that he's guilty not
saying I lean towards innocence I can't even lean towards guilty anymore so I'm really interested to see what
happens uh with this case but where does it stand today well I mean I think Brendan has
exhausted most of his appeals if not all of them so I don't even know what's next
for him I know that coming soon there's a a evidence trial I think that's happening in December maybe for Stephen
Avery's case so an appeal or a whole new no I think it's an appeal but I think she'll be able to
argue she'll be able to present new evidence yeah which she already has I mean she's been you know presenting page
upon page but most of the time it just gets um and here's what's kind of funny about it is I I do think with
public opinion and perception that you can put pressure on the system mhm but I actually think that now that there's was
one documentary and the second one again it's more about the system it's more it's it's harder to watch you're going
to learn a lot it's like taking a class and and appeals right right that alone if you're interested in True Crime
should make you want to watch it I give it um two thumbs up right but I would say it's a slow bur so take your time
with it it's not going to be something that you're going to watch one episode and go well crap I can just get through
another three today uh I didn't find it that interesting I thought there was too many
points and this crazy the crazy lady that that was his fiance it was just she was nuts but uh
there's Parts like that where it's like they could have left that out cuz it really doesn't have anything to do with
the truth or the story I I'd recommend it but where I sit right now is I just don't know I mean it's like that Meme
that everybody was going around with saying free you know free Stephen Avery and then parentheses underneath it said
I think right right and and that's what it is I mean would it be that far-fetched
for somebody on that property to commit the crime and that not with the help not that the not
that law enforcement knew who killed her mhm but is it possible that these people
that are being sued for 36 million is it possible that're they're going to place
a couple pieces of evidence definitely and I believe that in the OJ I mean we said that all along
there was a mountain of evidence against OJ I believe he was guilty but at the same time I also believe that some of
the evidence was planted and in this case you know if I had to lean one way I actually lean to
yeah this this murder took place I don't know if it was by this guy yes I believe it was by somebody on that
property and then I think there was a lot of pieces of evidence that were moved or altered you know it's
just I don't know it it but it's so frustrating but when I heard there might be a making a murder number three I was
like well I'm I'm all in on that because I to me now I feel strongly about it like like zelner
right I just want to know the truth and if you're going to go through all this Malarkey and you're going
to every time this stuff comes out every time every time that the h boach family
has to they're watching The Today Show and it comes on and they have to turn the channel right mhm every time that
that happens hopefully we're going through this for a reason and hopefully at the end of the day would say we know
what happened we we have the right people in jail for it and and and it's the case will be solved
you know officially um and not not just in the court size but in the public size and I
think if so they will feel grateful for the process if if Stephen Avery and Brendan whether they did it or didn't do
it once the process is done I think they'll be grateful for it well Captain I'll tell you what for
me the second series like I said I find it slower than the first it's moving slower at a slower
Pace than the first one but the Kathleen zelner portion of it is fascinating I think she could have a show a docu
series all by herself regardless of what case she is working on um and if people
need more um on this case if they can't wait for season 3 which you know we waited years
between one and two so who knows how long it will be before season 3 comes out if in fact it does but if people
need more there is a book out called Wrecking Crew demolishing the case against step Avery uh this is not by
Kathleen zelner but I believe that it's um um a a strong Focus uh a microscopic view of what she has done in her hard
work and her team's work on this specific case yeah and one thing that I challenge you and anybody that's
watching this yes I believe she's awesome do I I believe she's in it for the right reason like I said I don't
think she's in it to get Stephen Avery out she's in it to find the truth she doesn't believe what what the
prosecution said is the truth she doesn't believe what the jury found to be true and she's trying to find the
truth that's one thing I love about her but this is what I challenge you when there's parts of the documentary these
little aha moments where she goes see and she presents she'll say this is what they presented and this is probably what
happened right pause pause the documentary right then and think about what she said for a
second and this is what my only argument about my only gripe with her would be that sometimes she thinks she found an
answer answer so she goes well here's what we we've believed before but here is the
simpler more logical path right to whatever she's talking about m i just argue that if you
pause it and think for about 2 minutes you'll come up maybe even two seconds you might come up with another just as
simple just as logical explanation mhm to whatever she's talking about and for whatever reason there at an all hom
moment I got a phone call I hit pause I start talking on the phone and in seconds I'm going well yeah she thought
that but this could be true too right so don't let yourself get fooled by that stuff and uh and I don't think swept up
in the moment as they say yeah [Music] yeah [Applause]

Off The Recording /// Making a Murderer /// Part 2 Episode: 28 Recorded: 11-5-2018 Nic and the Captain discuss: Making a Murderer (Part 2) www.truecrimegarage.com

Brief Summary

The episode analyzes the Steven Avery case and Kathleen Zellner's pursuit of truth amid evidence concerns.

Key points

The Greatest Talk Show. A lighthearted introduction to the podcast, reflecting on the joy of humor.
Binge-Watching 'Making a Murderer'. The hosts discuss their binge-watching experience of the documentary series.
The Weight of Evidence. A deep dive into the evidence against Steven Avery and its implications.
The Role of Money in Justice. Exploring how financial resources affect legal outcomes in high-profile cases.
Suspicious Evidence Discovery. Law enforcement finds remains days after initially reporting none. Why the sudden change?
Katherine Zelner's Pursuit of Truth. Zelner's relentless quest for the truth drives the investigation, regardless of case outcomes.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

This guy seems 100% guilty.

Initial impressions of Steven Avery's case.

5:03WatchMar 8, 2024

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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