Ted Bundy and the Green River Killer ////// 66 | Forensic Files

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crime [Music] in Seattle this morning police are hunting a mass murderer believed to have
killed as many as 21 prostitutes in the last 22 months David burington reports been called The Green River
Killer ever since the first bodies five of them were pulled from this River since then seven more bodies have been
discovered nearby all those of young prostitutes according to police and the number of missing increases steadily two
were added to the list this week all the victims work this strip near the Seattle
Airport fr with hotels motels and strip joints angry residents are demanding police do more to stop the killings one
young prostitute who operates along the strip said she's terrified every time she's picked up I don't know I'm just I
guess I'm just lucky that I never came across that certain freak police say the victims are similar
runaways very young Disturbed most were strangled their bodies left d a police task force has little hard evidence but
it thinks a single Psychopathic killer is responsible however it would be illogical and improper from an
investigative perspective to become that tunnel vision and exclude the possibility of any copycat crimes or the
possibility of a multiple suspect police suspect other prostitutes might be able
to provide leads but because of their profession they've been uncooperative David Burrington NBC News
[Music] Seattle police in Washington state believe they found the remains of another victim of
the so-called Green River Killer the victim identified Monday as 17-year-old Cindy Anne Smith was last seen in March
of 1984 police believe that Smith is the Killer's 37th known victim all of them women ranging from 16 to 36 years of age
the murders began in summer of 1982 and since then an army of detectives and a multi-million doll computer system have
been unable to crack the case [Music] in this country in Washington state still another victim has been identified
in the nation's longest list of unsolved murders the Green River killings 37 women have died nine missing all thought
to be victims of the same killer John Sandifer of kgtv in Seattle has the [Music]
latest it was a familiar routine for the Green River task force sifting through any remaining evidence at a site where
someone in this case three young boys had stumbled across human remains after the passage of 3 years they would not
find much more than a skeleton late Monday the remains would be identified as those of 17-year-old Cindy Anne Smith
last seen in March 1984 hitchhiking from her mother's home to that of her sister
in Seattle she is victim number 37 Cindy disappeared from a strip of Highway south of Seattle where no fewer
than 18 other young women mostly prostitutes dropped out of sight beginning in the summer of
1982 the first Grizzly discoveries of their bodies was along the picturesque Green River hence the name that has come
to represent Untold horror to many in the Northwest the Green River Murders have included victims ranging in age
from 16 through 36 most of their bodies have been recovered in Wilderness dumping grounds in groups of two three
and up to seven the Green River task force has employed up to 50 full-time detectives and a multi-million dollar
computer system to crack the case they have served at least two search warrants but as of this morning the killer
remains unidentified and Cindy Smith's disappearance was the last one in this area 3 years ago John Sandifer for NBC
News in Seattle in Seattle in Seattle [Music] it's the early 80s and Ted Bundy is safe
let's say safe behind bars right he was convicted of killing the girls at the kai Omega sorority house Not only was he
seen in the area prior to the crimes but he was also seen fleeing the kai Omega sorority house with the uh weapon that
he used to attack the women yeah the oak log and then he goes on to represent himself in trial for these murders and
he thinks things are going his way but everybody else has a better perception of what's actually taking place well
everybody else is not a sociopath and a psychopath and not only do we have the eyewitnesses that see him fleeing but uh
one thing that's presented in court is he had bit one of the girls while he was in the sorority house one of the young
women that he attacked he bit her and they were able to use the his dental records to show that it was he in fact
who had caused that wound you mean Theodore Bundy yeah not him but Theodore Bundy yeah so let's say he's safe Behind
Bars and he's on death row in Florida but Bundy's never safe Behind Bars because this like this guy is a slippery
cat right yeah he escaped twice uh prior to this and thank God he never escaped again and finally they must have taken
him seriously and saw him for exactly what he is and what we described him as the Devil in Disguise and he is behind
bars on death row in Florida well in early uh in the early 80s this would be July 15th 1982 there is a body that is
found floating in the Green River this is near uh Seattle Washington and this is where Bundy is from yeah he started
his murders in the state of Washington and very close to this site as well now this body is spotted um by a civilian
and it's underneath a bridge but it's a river you know this is moving water so you wouldn't always expect to see
something just floating there you would think the water would carry it however this body was snagged on growth U you
know things that were growing in the river at the time mhm and this would end up being Wendy Lee Coffield um and she
disappeared July 7th 1982 so she disappeared just 8 days before her body is found now in a very short time they
would end up finding five bodies in the same river and again this is the Green River and this is how this unknown
serial killer gets his name the Green River Killer now this killer would have to be killing with such frequency with
with with an an exceedingly quick frequency because short after they find the body of Wendy colfield they find the
these other four bodies well in one situation they find two bodies uh in the water and then in another situation
there's a body that is spotted and the police go down to investigate to pull the body from the river and try to
figure out what's going on well in the course of pulling that body from the river one of the officers uh and this is
uh Lieutenant rker he he actually practically steps on another body as he's going to as they're working to get
this other body out so as said they pull five bodies uh within a short time period in the 1982swagger
[Music] runaways uh so people that might have been living a higher risk style lifestyle um and yeah but you hear in
the trailer I mean even back then um they viewed the sex workers as almost this low lower level human I mean there
were they said some degrading stuff just in the news broadcast yeah and I think at in that area of the country you know
there are a lot of sex workers well there were back then I don't know currently what's going on uh but this
was it was something you know when they found a dead woman somewhere whether it be on the side of the road or in in the
river or near the woods or in the woods there were so many sex workers that they
almost kind of just have assumed immediately that this is another you know another sex worker that's been
killed now shortly after this the killings would not stop with these five but what would take place is they
stopped finding bodies in the river and started finding them near the river in wooded areas right October 1st
1984 there is a man on death row that is Theodore Bundy that we talked about in Florida and he writes a letter to what
is now the Green River task force um and let's keep in mind one of one of the people that were involved in Ted's case
that was hunting Ted Bundy and couldn't get to him fast enough right was Robert Keele and now he would I think I may
have misspoken one of our earlier Ted episodes and said that he was a FBI agent but he in fact he was a a
detective for King County and he would go on to work for the Attorney General's office in uh in the state of Washington
so naturally this would bring him after Ted's locked up and and put away in Florida this this puts Robert Keele in a
situation where he's assisting in the Green River uh case and he's a part of that task force now there were a lot of
people involved in this case and a lot of detectives this this almost mirrors bundes investigation remember we talked
about all these officers yeah the Ted murders yeah working together and they're they're taking in all these tips
and all these Clues and then they had to figure out a way to categorize everything so that they could
efficiently go through the information and try to link things together well this is similar where when they found
one body you might have one detective on the the case and then there's two more bodies well we've got to pull in some
more detectives and after you find body after body after body then you you have this whole group uh assisting in it and
and you know largely this is the Green River task force yeah and well well and the fact that with the Ted murders you
know especially when there's a murder taking place in one area of the country and then there's a murder taking place
in another area of the country you have now multiple task force not just detectives yeah and so he he writes this
letter Theodore Bundy writes this letter to the Green River task force and he's basically saying you know what I'm from
that area and you know who I am and maybe I can offer some some insight sorry to laugh well I I only say that
because I don't know what at the time what he is willing to say of him and his crimes mhm but clearly they know who he
is and things he's been capable of and he knows that they've hunted him for so long long and he's saying you know maybe
I can offer some insight to help you find this person and maybe at this point you know you know Ted denied his
involvement then he defends himself and now he's in jail he's on death row maybe
at this point he is just coming to the terms that this is who I am this is what I've done I might as well just accept it
yeah I see I go back and forth with where I think Ted's head was at at this time because remember we said there was
that rumor that he had spoken to his attorney and asked about you know what state would they put most likely put you
to death right and they the attorney said Florida and then Ted ends up in Florida commits murder CRI yeah and and
also crimes that he wasn't that careful about all the other stuff it seemed like
he was these this seemed like a a murderous Rampage yeah the kyoga or Kaya uh killings it seemed like just a crazy
Rampage and that said it he said set himself up to you know for people to be able to find weapon the the the murder
weapon and for them to have eyewitnesses so it really did seem like I'm just committing this crime so then this state
can put me to death yeah possibly I mean that that's the thought is if he did in
fact go there with that intention then he was a man that had a death wish um I personally think that beforehand you
know he was he was kind of dabbling and killing he was killing one at a time and
then this was like an addict that that ends up binge killing uh once he gets to Florida uh he offers his assistance and
he went in the beginning you know they're especially Keele he's a little he's a little concerned about talking to
Ted they definitely all the investigators do want to talk to him however they know how how manipulating
and what a liar in in con man yeah that Ted Bundy is so their first thought is you know what he he's just going to try
to play us one more time he just wants us to go all the way to Florida I mean you couldn't get any more further in the
United States almost when you talk about Washington State all the way down to Florida yeah he just wants us to stop
what we're doing go all the way down to Florida and talk to him and he's just going to BS us and give us the runaround
for you know days and days and days and however there's this thought that you know what even if he does try to play us
maybe we could go down there and even if we don't learn anything about the Green
River Killer maybe we can learn some things about Ted Bundy because now keep in mind there are still B to this day
there are bodies of bundies that have never been found mhm and so they thought you know very least case scenar worst
case scenario we go down there and maybe we can recover some of these victims of
Ted Bundy yeah on record it seems like he confessed to about 30 some sites some uh sources will say 35 is roughly the
Ted bunny murder count but you know you know we're not at the point where but he's he was confessing all the way up to
his death sentence and was that was some of those [ __ ] who knows but he he was constantly confessing I mean his
kill count could be in the 40s 50s who knows well and the the thing that makes me wonder about the death wish is I
always thought that this was a way for Ted Bundy to delay his death sentence that okay now he's on death row and he
you know the the end day is coming it's it's approaching and I could only imagine how fast that seems to approach
for somebody that can you imagine knowing the day and time that you're going to die mhm that would be awful so
well he deserves every right definitely he definitely deserves every minute of it but it's a strange situation to try
try to put yourself in that mindset so he's down there and now you know what how can he delay his death sentence
right so is he just talking to this task force you know in order to delay than than inevitable yeah and I mean he could
say you know I can I can help you with this case uh I can also assist you with finding some of the bodies that that I'm
in charge of that were you know things that I have done now um but but Ted ever being the con man you know he's going to
when you start talking to him about bodies and stuff like that he's he's never really willing to fully divulge
everything that he knows he's always got to keep something to himself you know one of his confessions States now we got
to keep in mind here when he's on death row in Florida MH and to this date you know even before he was executed he was
never convicted of every single one of his crimes um so one thing he would do there's there's one confession he gave
which I always found interesting was he would say you know in Washington I killed 11 women and young girls right I
killed 11 girls and young women uh here's eight of their names you know that's the kind of confessions Ted Bundy
would give he's never going to give you everything he's going to hold on to something um and the other thing too is
well then the question also becomes did he even know all the victims names well and the other thing he would do is you
know I oh I can help lead you to these bodies but you know I was driving a lot back then I committed these crimes in
multiple States you know you're going to have to give me something you're going to have to provide me with some maps and
I'm going to need some information from you and maybe you could show me some of the case File and I could I that might
help uh jog my memory so I can I can tell you where this body would be located and help you find it and maybe
he was also using this you know even if he wasn't involved in the case I mean you know he he had this love of reading
the detective books and stuff like that maybe some of this was just a way to have resources you're in this cell and
you're for entertainment hey I I keep talking to these police and they keep writing me and they keep visiting me and
they keep calling me and it's something to do well and one thing that he did when he was younger you know before the
well probably when these crimes first started for Ted back in Washington was he you know we talked about him working
on the crisis hotline you know people could call in that or suicidal or or having you know a crisis um but he also
worked on some form of uh it wasn't like a task force but he did like paperwork for uh rapes and sexual assaults and
things like that so he was kind of studying these these attacks as he was out committing them well and he might
get some kind of sexual gratification or sexual stimulus oh he definit from reading this stuff yeah he he had all
kinds of motives for wanting to quote unquote help the police he he definitely had all kinds of weird Ted Bundy motives
for why why he was doing this I mean like I said before and and I'll say it again I mean not a not I never found him
that interesting and then we started diving into him and he is complete he's a complete monster and
he's super fascinating you know and that's not to try to glorify him because I think he's scum of the Earth but I
mean this guy had some layers well they went down there with the expectation that maybe we'll talk you know we'll go
down there we'll talk with them once or maybe over the course of a day or two and just see what's going on and then if
if it is what we think it is where Ted's trying to play us and just you know mess
with our minds then we're just going to get out of there and ignore it however we have a duty to do and if there is
somebody that knows this person definitely knows more about murder than the investigators that are investigating
murder so we we would be a disservice to our investigation and the people of this
community if we don't to and furthermore as said Ted was from the area he knew the area this was a guy that was
constantly driving and he was putting bodies in the woods as well and that's what happened with the Green River
Killer he started off putting the bodies in the water and then he started putting
them in the wooded areas near the river well let's get into that right after a quick beer break this show is sponsored
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into the garage cheers the investigators that are researching The Green River Killer and trying to apprehend this man
uh they are down in Florida and they're going to be talking with Theodore Bundy somebody that knows murder better than
most um and and they want to well here's they're going to sit down and they want
to approach him and explain to him that we are only here to talk to you to see if you can help with this investigation
we're not going to put up with any of your Shenanigans we're not going to play any of your games we don't want to hear
a whole lot of Bundy talk we are here to see how you can help us apprehend this guy and they they almost come off a
little like they they give him the impression of we don't really believe you can help us like what can you offer
us which which I think is smart I think that's how you challenge somebody like a
Ted Bundy you know because Ted likes to show his bravado and he likes to show how intelligent he is and how smart he
is and so to challenge him almost makes him well he's a narcissist well it corals him a bit right it corals him a
bit and it and it makes him uh he's going to have to talk about the things that you want he's going to have to hold
your interest or you're going to leave you have you have no reason to talk to him other than this
investigation um they they would talk for hours and hours and hours and we're not going to talk for hours and hours
and hours so I will sum up some of the yes we are that's what we do that's what that's our our job well I'm going to sum
up for you uh some of the some of the bits of information that Theodore Bundy offers to the Green River task force now
the first thing that they he says to them now keep in mind the GRE the river man we have to talk about the river man
right because that's what Bundy starts to call the Green River Killer he refers to him as the river man right and the
investigators talking to Bundy they will they will adopt this nickname and refer
to him as the Riverman just not a fan of nicknames you know so Bundy says that that the Riverman MH his firsto was that
he would get these girls and again most of them are sex workers or presumed runaways and he would get these girls
pick them up on the Strip somewhere and then he would take them we don't know where and he would kill them and they
would end up in the river well after the first five we start to see him he's changed what he's adapted a little bit
he's now putting the bodies in the woods and near the river and they were having
a hard time finding these bodies but when they would come across one they would usually come across a second or a
third as well so he's dumping them in what what Bundy would refer to as clusters now Bundy it it's been
speculated that Bundy probably did the same thing uh when he would when he would un unload a body or two that they
would end up in these cluster dumps yeah and if you if you're watching The Killing season they talk about this with
the Gilgo Beach murders mhm and one thing that Bundy says is that you you may want to uh know that he is probably
the Riverman is probably returning and visiting these victims after death right and he's and he wouldn't say why but
he's saying that they probably would visit them and spend some time with the body well what we know about Bundy is he
would and this this is going to be graphic but he would have sex with the victims after they're dead uh he was
also known to sometimes put makeup on them um so that's where Bundy's coming from on this idea again if you know I
don't mean to bring up The Killing season again but some people use it as like a trophy room here's my cluster of
bodies so when I come back to visit I don't have to you know go a mile here and a mile there to see two different
victims I put them close enough to each other so when I go I can go look at my trophies MH well the the other thing too
is that the killer can return to the dump site not only to have sex with the corpse but to also kind of see what's
going on has the is the body gone is has it been moved has there been any activity in this area since the last
time I've been here and so it's kind of a way of checking on what's going on as well as doing these other activities now
at the time this really was some helpful insight to the investigators because this is not something that they
considered with the Green River Killer and it also taught them something about Bundy at the same time that's when they
started figuring out Bundy was returning to his victims and he was spending time
what he called spending time with the bodies and one thing to to kind of underline what the captain was saying
that we know about Ted Bundy was one of the sisters of of his victims a sister of one of of his victims identified the
body and noticed that there was makeup and finger paint on on the girl's nails andish yeah nail polish sorry and finger
paint well actually the book I was refe reading referred to it as finger paint they call it finger paint yeah uh well
these were written by by police officers that written by a man he's like hey honey are you over there finger painting
yourself but there was there was lipstick and there was makeup and there was fingernail polish that did not
belong to the victim and even though her belongings disappeared with her it you know he didn't use the he used some
other you know fingernail polish some other makeup that wasn't her so we know that he was doing these things another
method of detection that Ted Bundy was offering to the police was he was saying that this person this killer is obsessed
with sex and violence and so if you are desperate you know if you are in act as desperate as you are telling me you are
in this investigation you may want to set up some kind of surveillance operation outside of of uh pornography
theaters or um theaters that are showing these these horrible uh horror flicks you know where there's a slasher film
because back in the day you would actually have to go to a theater in most cases to watch this kind of material
yeah they had the trip X theaters that you could go to and again but we know with these type of killers that they
have this this mental uh proclivity about them that where they have it's sex and violence and it's violence and sex
and it's all wrapped up in one it's all in one big convoluted mess for them some
of them cannot cannot get it up without the violence in the sex some of them cannot they they cannot achieve whatever
they're looking for they can't be gratified without the sex and the violence all mixed up into one and this
I don't think that this was was so helpful as much as the returning to the bodies yeah but it gives you right well
well you got the returning to the bodies but you it gives you a a place to start
looking uh the the officers and Ted Bundy are not always going to agree on everything and actually one of the
arguments they got into was the Green River task force they they reached a point in the investigation where they
thought that the killings had stopped because they were finding bodies with such frequency and then all of a sudden
they're not finding finding bodies and they wanted to know you know Ted Bundy why would this guy stop why would he
stop killing we're not finding anybody and Ted says you know he's not stopped killing and they said yeah we know that
he has we haven't found any new bodies no they've not stopped he's not stopped killing Ted insisted that what had
actually happened is that the killer had adapted and that either he was dumping them in places where you just couldn't
find the bodies or he's slightly changed his victimology where he's no longer focusing on sex workers maybe he's gone
after a younger victim or now he's only going after delinquents or people that are you know young runaways well we also
see with serial killers also they they get invested in their own life family life or personal matters work sometimes
they get involved in different things and that that's also a reason why sometimes there's breaks the killings
and later on we would learn that two of those statements were in fact true uh that the Green River Killer did in fact
start seeking out younger victims for a period of time the other thing this is this is where the police thought they
were going to get their big break and I really think that they would have however there's there's outside factors
that can screw things up in an investigation now you know remember Bundy gave him the tidbit of the the
Killer's probably returning to the crime scene and he's probably returning to the
crime scene in in spending time with the bodies yeah which is sick so Ted says if
you really want to catch this guy this is what I would do the next time you find a body do not announce it to
anybody do not tell anybody that you found a body furthermore don't even remove the body don't move it at all
because if you if you move it at all he will know what you should do is is leave the body
alone and you should stake out the area and wait for him to return now this might take this might take days it could
you know it could take months yeah and he and he may not be coming back there just to spend time with that body it
could take months he could be coming back to put another body there right it could be the start of a cluster yeah
well the police are going to use this tactic and I really think this would have worked however there was there's an
outside factor involved in this investigation and as with most investigations especially one of this
size it's the media well what had happened was they had found a body and they had every intention of just staking
out the area and waiting for the killer to return however once they started their stake out and surveilling the area
media somehow got a hold of it I don't think that they knew in fact that there was a body there but they saw police
activity out out in these areas that were were compatible with what the Green River Killer was doing right and they
basically the the police are trying to surveil the area and the media is trying to surveil them yeah they're trying to
figure out why the cops are there so unfortunately this is going to shut down that operation they're not going to be
able to sit there and watch this body and watch this area as they're being watched by the media and you know how
the media are if if there's one person from the media that starts watching you well then they you know it's they're
like vultures they you start seeing the second and then a third and it kind of kind of gives you away it kind of calls
your bluff there right uh so real quick here these are some things that that uh Ted Bundy was able to assist the Green
River task force with uh he had mentioned that the person would return to the dump site and that he would
potentially spend time with the bodies he's going to come back there to dump other bodies because he's using using
this cluster dump uh as Ted would call it and later we would hear other serial killers call this as well as a cluster
dump um he had also suggested that the sex and violence is all one big thing for this guy and this is really all this
guy thinks about and fantasizes about and so if you are desperate then maybe you check out who's coming and going
from trip XX theaters or slasher films um the other thing he would he would talk about and this is something that we
talked about when we were discussing Ted Bundy in the last episode is he said you
know you are looking for somebody that drives a lot that is constantly in their vehicle you're looking for somebody that
that might have to acquire new vehicles more often than one would be expected because he's putting so many miles and
so much wear and tear on a vehicle you're looking for somebody that might need to replace the tires very often in
in their vehicle uh or has access to multiple Vehicles the other thing and now this was something that the Green
River task force already knew and they had already implemented in their investigation was that Bundy said this
is somebody that is very comfortable around sex workers meaning that he was a Jon that he was probably a Jon before he
started killing and at other times he might be a JN and not pick up a woman and kill her he he might he might return
her to where he picked her up from right uh that sometimes he's killing and sometimes he's not but he's somebody
that they are they're not afraid of seeing him on the strip and seeing him where he's picking up these young women
which is a statement that we knew to be true something that we knew would hold water because the task force they
believed you know once once the uh TV started telling everybody the the news and the media and the newspapers started
announcing that these sex workers are being picked up and they're being killed and they're being dumped in the river
and then in the woods they really believed that the killings would stop why because at some point the the
working girls would quit getting into vehicles and they yeah but that's not going to happen well you and I know that
and back then they didn't know that that this was just something they expected because they thought well this is this
is as bad as it can get and so what they did these workers are already living a super high-risk life anyways but the
investigators even took it a step further where they went down to the strip and they were were telling the
other they were telling the workers what was going on you know this is the stuff
we're seeing we're looking for a very bad man it could be two you know they at the beginning they didn't even rule out
the possibility of there being two killers because the killings were happen happening so fast and so often and they
thought you know once we once we inform the community as to what's going on that
this is going to slow the killer or it's going to scare the killer or it's going
to scare the victims the potential victims that would get in his vehicle it becomes obvious to the
investigators that after a while that while they're asking Ted Bundy to help them look for the Green River Killer
they also start to figure out that sometimes Bundy's referring to himself and what we mean by this is that you
know it it's not Bundy saying oh you're looking for a 5 foot 10 white guy and he
lives in this neighborhood and he's married or he's divorced or whatever he's not giving a specific profile of
the person he's just saying you know judging by the victims the number of victims and where the bodies are located
this is what I think this guy is doing and he can only he can only surmise what this guy is doing by either guessing you
know what the what the Killer's movements might be or by going back in his own history and referring to things
that he done or things that he would do in this situation so at some point they realize that that in some form he's
talking about himself and that's how you know they they really find out some more
of the details about you know Bundy with the uh necrofilia and uh where he you know and
why he left the areas that he left and in searching new areas and the way that he would find new victims they're able
to study a lot of Bundy's movements from Bundy's own words and at some point too
they they need to start having Bundy tell us where these other victims are of his you know where can we find some of
these bodies and he will start to tell the the investigators where to find them and tell as much as he can well I think
that's because he couldn't help himself yeah yeah I think and you can see it pretty clearly you know when you watch
some of these old interviews that he does enjoy talking about himself he enjoys the FaceTime he likes sitting
down and he likes people hanging on his every word mhm um and at some point there's you know he's he's got to you
know speak about specific victims and mention their names and where they can be found and things that he did to them
and how he abduct abducted them and that's why when you have these situations with these victims that were
not found at the time or the victims that uh were unable there no eyewitnesses and they didn't Escape so
they can't give us an account of what happened this is why we know that you know he was using things like uh
pretending to have a broken arm you know uh and things that he would do to his vehicle and ways of abducting these
young women so we have Ted Bundy trying to help this uh law enforcement with the
capture of the Green River Killer he was not successful but he gave him a bunch of information and some leads he also
talks more about himself and his crimes but we still have this thing looming over Ted Bundy he's going to be
sentenced to death by the state of Florida but before doing so he does a lengthy interview MH um with a lawyer I
believe or I believe this was with James Dobson yeah yeah and so what what was interesting about this was about 20 30
minute interview maybe longer but the what they actually tape the footage of it they released to all media Outlets
but there was a stipulation you had to show it in its entirety but we're going to play a little clip from that so you
can hear uh a little bit of this interview but also just uh Ted Bunny's demeanor and and kind of hear his own
words yeah you know if I were able to ask you the questions that are being asked out there uh one of the most
important as you come down to perhaps your final hours are you thinking about all those victims out there in their
families well who are so wounded you know years later their lives have not returned to normal they will never
return to normal absolutely are you carrying that load that weight is the remorse
there again I I know that people will accuse me of being self- serving but we're beyond that now I mean I'm just
telling you how I feel but through God's help I have been able to come to the point where
I much too late but better late than never feel the hurt and the pain that I am responsible for yes absolutely in the
past few days myself and a number of investigators have been talking about unsolved
cases murders that I was involved in and it's hard to it's hard to talk about all
these years later because the revives in me all those terrible feelings and those
thoughts that I have steadfastly and and diligently dealt with I think successfully with the
love of God and yet it's reopened that and I felt the pain and I felt the horror
again of all that and I can only hope that those who I have harmed those who I've caused so much
grief even if they don't believe my expression of sorrow and remorse will believe what I I'm saying now that there
is loose in their towns and their communities people like me today whose dangerous impulses are being
fueled day in and day out by violence in the media in its various fors particularly sexualized
violence and what scares me and let's come into the present now because what I'm talking but happened 30 20 30 years
ago that is in my forist stages and what scares and appalls me Dr Dobson is when
I see what's on cable TV some of the movies I mean some of the violence in the movies uh that come into
homes today with stuff that they they wouldn't show in x-rated adult theaters 30 years ago this stuff the slasher
movies that you're talking about that stuff is I'm telling you from personal experience the most that is graphic
violence on screen particularly as it gets into the home to children who may be unattended or or unaware that they
may be a Ted Bundy who has that that vulnerability to that that predisposition to be influenced by that
kind of behavior by that kind of of movie that kind of violence that was Ted Bundy's last interview with James Dobson
and it took place as you heard James say you know in the final hours leading up to your death that's because several of
his death sentences had been delayed because he was helping investigators and he was giving them information at some
point he was no longer able to buy additional time and he he was executed the next day and one thing you should
look up or or look into if if you want to dive further into this case but there was when the date that he was killed
this was in January of 1989 that you I have never seen in my opinion a time where more people were
backing the death penalty than in this situation it was you know it was like a nationwide almost celebration uh that
they were going to finally put this horrible man to death right and it's actually been referred to as the Bundy
barbecue because back then in in Florida I don't know what means of of death sentence that they use nowadays but uh
back then they were prob probably lethal injection yeah they were using the electric chair back then so they
referred to it as the Bundy barbecue but there was a party going on outside of the prison and you can look this up
there's you know people holding signs that were were celebrating the death of this horrible man and it almost looked
like a football tailgate uh outside of the prison at that time a big a big party of people getting to together
drinking beer cooking food and and like rallying around together well it's kind of sad in a way because here's this guy
that is even confessing to crimes on the way to the chair and and the reason why
I think it's sad is you know maybe extend the time a little bit further and maybe get some closure for the other
victim's families yeah I I can see your point of view with that and and I would agree with that most of the time I but I
do think that at times he was refusing information right right and he was he was playing them at times you know we
had said that you know he would say things like well I can help you find this body but I'm going to need you to
provide me with maps and and some information on the case and these were things of him of of him saying you know
I can help you but you're going to have to go away for a few days and come back with some information for me and then
let's see what I can give you um so he wasn't always willing to just outright answer everything like we said he
confessed to the deaths of 11 women in the state of Washington and was only willing to give the names of eight of
them right um and we have some curiosity to who some of those other victims could
be you know there was a a a what's been referred to as his neighbor um her name was Anne Burr uh and uh she had lived
with within a few miles of Bundy when he was 14 or 15 years old and he's often been suspected of killing her you know
yeah she was the one that um her piano instructor was actually his uncle was his uncle or or his Uncle
lived in the neighborhood no I believe she she took piano lessons from the uncle so there was this direct link so
he may may have even met her or have slightly known her but basically somebody came into their home in the
middle of the night the parents were home they someone came into the home in the middle of the night slipped through
a window and when they woke up the next morning couldn't find their daughter an and I don't believe that her body has
ever been located she could be one of those three people that he was refusing to name in his confessions I believe she
was eight and he was possibly around the age of 15 or so I could be wrong yep so
uh you know check out the Bundy barbecue uh if you want to see those pictures but
let's let's go back and let's talk about the Green River Killer okay uh who was the Green River Killer well this
investigation is as much as Bundy tried to help them or or was pretending to help them uh this investigation
basically took about 20 years you know it was almost 20 years looking for the Killer and it was about 20 years to uh
put some of these cases to to bed because they were still looking for bodies in the early 2000s now and what
took place was in the late summer of 2001 they started going back and testing a lot of the evidence they found at some
of these crime scenes and on some of the victim's bodies right for DNA and stuff
like that correct and the first the first link that they find they're using they're testing sperm and they they
determined that this man Gary Ridgeway uh he had left his DNA uh inside and on some of these victims bodies okay now
they were they were also able to collect other evidence at the crime scenes that
they were able to link him to some of the bodies where he did not leave DNA now what what's interesting here is that
back in the early 80s they are these investigators and we got to take our hats off to these guys and girls because
they're out there collecting evidence that they don't even know if they're ever going to be able to use it for
anything but not only collecting it but PR preserving it properly for for decades and it ends up coming back and
it ends up finding the guy that they've been looking for for so long mhm in 2001
Gary Ridgeway he confessed to killing 71 young women and girls now as we said most of these were SE sex workers some
of them were thought to be runaways and other type of delinquents however he confesses to 71 he's only ended up
convicted of 49 now they would spend the next approximately two years with the assistance of Gary Ridgeway to locate
some of these bodies as we said a lot of these bodies were not located at the time and actually still to this date uh
last you know they haven't found all of these supposed 71 bodies um is he just coming up with the number is he wrong um
he could be he could be he he's actually said several statements where he has killed so many women that he cannot
remember their names or where he found them or where he left them um so it's possible I do believe that that
personally I believe that that number is going to be high than 49 now last I heard local law enforcement King County
Law Enforcement they are no longer looking for these bodies as said they spent about two years with his assistant
assistant locating a lot of these bodies they are no longer doing that part of that comes down to you know it's the
it's the economy of the whole thing at some point you don't have enough money to be spending that amount of resources
and that amount of time looking for these bodies which is unfortunate for a lot of the victim's families and the
victims themselves but you know these these investigators and the King County Police Department they have other cases
on their desk today that they're looking into now there was um there is a gentleman uh he's retired uh I believe
retired military investigator and he has opened up his own um search team and they are working to find some of these
other bodies and they've actually been able to work with Gary Ridgeway himself he has he has tried to give them some
Clues and some tips as to where they might find these bodies and yeah and it's not like he's sitting there holding
the information hostage he just doesn't remember a lot of the stuff right well and actually or that's what we can
assume actually I came across a list that he provided to these uh to these Searchers and to this group uh where he
basically has listed as many names as he can recall and approximate dates that he
believes that he abducted these women as well as you know did he leave them nude
did he leave them with any clothing on um I don't know his I don't know the his reasoning for wanting to help um I I
don't think that he feels bad about any of this stuff I don't think that he's found God uh and wants to become right
with God or anything like that I actually think that I think that it's a numbers game for him because in in a
later even though he has confessed to 71 killings he did say you know when when asked why he is helping in this search
he has said because he wants to prove that there are 80 victims out there so now his number's gone up even higher
he's now saying 80 and I think for him that he wants to be he is technically America's most prolific killer of all
time and I think he's proud of his number and I think he wants that number to be as high as possible right and he's
trying to prove Pro it by doing you know it's like right now it's like oh well just we're just speculating that this is
the number he's like no no we can prove it now what were some things that that Ted Bundy got right about Gary Ridgeway
uh well he was right Gary was returning to the victims and he was spending time with the bodies um now how Gary started
off and we don't have you know we're we're coming towards the end of our show here uh but to give you a little
background on the Green River Killer you know he starting killing back in 1982 this was after his second marriage he
was divorced uh two you know the first time and then after the second marriage he was divorced again he would later say
that he believes that had he just killed his second wife that he might not have killed any of these women I don't
believe that for one no for one minute um it's it's it's just a way for these guys to blame their actions on somebody
else and on other things out of their control well and just like you heard in the interview I mean like Bundy you know
blames these murders on you know soft porn and stuff like that that's not the reason why you're killing people you
don't watch you know I I would just argue that you know how many people millions and millions of people watch a
a soft uh softcore porn or something they're not going to go out and start murdering people and so G Gary does the
same thing it's always coming up with these excuses you know I was well if I would have just killed my second wife
then everything would have been fine you you killed 80 women mhm you idiot like you know oh well if I would have just
killed her I'd be fine but but Gary Gary was always that way and he will always be that way I mean when he was when he
was young when he was just out of high school now this is a guy he he's not a brilliant guy you know Ted might be one
of the smarter and more intellectual serial killers that we've had to deal with but that wasn't the situation with
Gary Ridgeway he W he was good at what he was doing he was good at alluding detectives in the investigation but he's
not a brilliant mind I mean he's got an IQ of about 80 to 85 depending on uh which source you check but he graduated
high school at the age of 20 and immediately after high school he goes into the Navy and now when he's off in
the Navy he starts uh having sex with um with Filipino sex workers when when he's
out in the Navy now he he contracts the narial disease because of this and he we
know this because we can see this in his Navy records however what how does he react to this he he blames it on the
girls you know this oh it's their fault that he got this disease and then in 1972 he comes home from the Navy to find
his wife and his wife is being unfaithful and had been unfaithful to him while he was in the Navy and they
get a divorce and he blames the divorce on her well guess what yeah she might have been unfaithful but you weren't
being very faithful yourself right um in the second uh the second marriage that he has that he ends up having a son uh
he's not very happy about this situation I don't know why uh but they eventually
divorce in 1981 and again this is the the woman that he said he should have killed rather than all of these other
women uh this is when he starts killing is in 1982 shortly after his divorce and
his his noce operandi back then is he would go pick up these girls off the strip now mind you he was just like
Bundy had said in the task force uh had expected he was already frequenting sex workers before he started killing them
but once he starts killing them what he would do is he would bring them back to his home and he would kill them in his
home and now he lived in a house that is much like most people's homes where you
are surrounded by other houses and homes and so there's no no reason why uh you know somebody shouldn't have seen this
activity going on but he would walk in the walk in his home he didn't have a garage he would walk in his home with
with a woman that he picked up and then he would kill her and bring her back to his vehicle and drive off and he would
dump them in the river now as said he started dumping them in the wooded areas nearby in these cluster dumps remember
that period of time where the they thought that the killings might have stopped because they were no longer
finding bodies and and Bundy was saying no they haven't stopped yet and Bundy was slightly right on a couple things
you know he said he's either changed where he's dumping them or he's changed his victimology well he did do both of
those things in a sense uh at one point he did think that he would stop picking up sex workers and killing them he
wanted to he did want to find runaways and delinquents and but one thing that he definitely did was was he stopped
using these cluster dumps where he would take one of the victims out into a wooded area and he was even driving
further and further away as these killings continued and just leaving them you know independently individually so
you think after two marriages he would just stop right but doesn't he get married a third time yeah he did get
married a third time and this is when he has to change and adapt once more he stops killing in his home and now he's
killing in his vehicle and he's doing this either late at night when his wife is asleep or very early in the morning
he would get up and leave hours before he was supposed to go to work and go off and pick up a girl kill her dump her and
then go to work now there were some strange things that happened with this case but they're also similar to what we
saw with the Ted murders in Ted Bundy's case where any time you have a large investigation that spans months and
months and months that has this number of victims this number of potential eyewitnesses remember how many suspects
they believe that they had in the Ted killings they they said like 3500 suspects and they were trying to narrow
it down to the best 100 suspects well very much like the Ted murders they had the same situation in the Green River
killings where they had thousands of suspects thousands of suspects but usually in an investigation of this type
and just like in Ted Bundy's they have usually spoke to or or have heard the name of the actual killer at
some point in the investigation now they were led to Gary Ridgeway on more than one occasion somebody had spotted his
vehicle and they had spoke with him every time Gary Ridgeway was able to kind of convince them that he was not in
fact the Green River Killer and actually just to show you how far gone this dude
is they actually at one point hooked him up to a lie detector test because at some point they're like wait we we've
seen this guy's name before and now we're seeing it again and there's got to be something here but every time we talk
to him he leaves us convinced that he's not the guy mhm so let's hook him up to a polygraph and see what how that goes
down he passes a polygraph test because he feels No Remorse because he feels no guilt for these killings he he's not
ashamed on the inside of what he's done he's not even nervous that you're going to catch him in a lie because to him
he's not done anything wrong he does not see these women as people and he doesn't
have the same feelings and emotions that you and I have and this is a reason why
we put we shouldn't put a lot of weight into polygraphs in the first place well especially with people of this nature
because again he he doesn't feel and think the same way that you and I do and an Evidence of this is he actually had
his 8-year-old son present with him on one of the killings at some point if you look if you look up his his victim list
and see when they disappeared uh you will see a frequency that is so disturbing it I mean it will
freak you out this guy was killing roughly about three women a month uh during during his Peak now at one of
those points he had his son for the weekend and he was coming back from his brother's birthday party and he decides
to pick up a a woman on the way home while his son is in the vehicle and he walks with the woman out into the woods
they're gone for a while he comes back she does not and his son ask where did the girl go and he says oh she lives
near here and she decided to walk home but he actually used his son as a ruse to to let these women's guard down and
that specific situation he had the son with him but he talks about because remember we said that the the sex
workers would have had a heightened state of awareness now keep in mind these women probably have more Street
smarts than the police invest inating the crimes to begin with you know so these are not people that are easily
tricked now they're they're getting into vehicles and they understand that there's a maniac out there that's
killing women so they start doing things on the street to kind of watch each other's backs and to watch their own
backs right but he did things like where he would you know the he said that at some point the women started asking to
CID because they want to see you know are you a cop or you know show us your ID so we know that you're a regular dude
uh and he would show his ID and he would purposely take his finger and cover up his name when he would but he would hold
open his wallet so that you could see pictures of his son in the wallet so it would let their guard down and he oh
right right like he has a little boy and so so he's a family man not going to hurt me uh and he would purposely leave
some of his son's belongings in his vehicle as well now another thing that's one messed up dude another thing that
Ted was absolutely right on and and anybody that studied this stuff long enough it doesn't take any you know
Sherlock Holmes to figure this out but Ted was right that Gary Ridgeway was driving constantly much like Ted was
doing you know it we've talked you know people always ask what do these serial killers have in common you know is it is
it they had a head injury or was it that they wet the bed until they were 15 or that they uh I'm going to go with what
the bed or that they were strangling cats or setting things on fire when they were children what are what's the
identifier to figure out who these guys are to separate these monsters from the rest of society well in my opinion it's
much like what we talked about in the last episode their number one killing tool and killing weapon in my opinion is
their vehicle well with these two gentlemen with these two but you will see this time and gentl these two
[ __ ] so but you will see this time and time again with a lot of killers they are people that prow constantly
they're driving constantly they will go to Great dist es to hide their crimes these are people that are tearing
through tires and tearing through vehicles at at a large rate now one thing that Gary did to help elude
detection was he had multiple Vehicles over the course of this investigation but he also worked as a painter he he
was a tape guy at the at the uh Kenworth Factory now what was Kenworth they would
paint vehicles so he was often able to change the color of his vehicle because he would just paint it a different color
now the strange thing here is we we had said that the investigators had spoken to Gary on more than one occasion now
his co-workers knew this because he was actually picked up at work one on one of
these occasions so his nickname at work now and you can you can look this up but
there's plenty of co-workers that said you know he was a weird dude he wasn't the kind of guy he wasn't scary but he
wasn't the kind of guy that you would go get a beer with after work you wouldn't
invite him over to your party or to your family get together so he's like Nick no but they nicknamed him Green
River Gary at work that's what they kind of called Green River Gary Green River Gary they would kind of call him that
behind his back why because because the the police showed up to question him about the killing right so then work and
they're well yeah because from now on anytime you're taking a Spoke break or you're at lunch break the conversation
is well is Gary really the killer or is he not you know and everybody had a different opinion but they all agreed
they didn't want to hang out with him uh and after that why I wouldn't want to hang out with the dude either but Gary
is always the type of of person to get even too as well now one thing he did he would hear the co-workers snickering and
calling him Green River Gary and and you know but one thing that he did was he would often keep some of the women's
jewelry these women that he killed um and one thing he did at work on at least one occasion was he would take the
jewelry and he would place it somewhere like somebody had dropped it you know or
somebody had lost it and a coworker picked it up and would wear it and he would have this thing in his mind every
time that he would pass that coworker in the hall or walk by her like if you only
knew what I know you know you you guys goof around and you call me these names yet you're wearing a dead girl's jewelry
around you know around the office some of that jewelry that he had would end up in his and his wife they would have
these uh garage sales and they would sell some of the jewelry as well as shoes of of some of the
victims in in all you know as said he ended up confessing to 71 and he's convicted of 49 now part of that he he
is not on death row you know he's serving a life sentence and part of that life sentence was that he would confess
to these these murders and he would help assist with the finding of those bodies
so with the Green River Killer case um we still have a task force looking for these bodies
still working with Gary um Gary has to work with him that's his sentence and and hopefully more victims they find
more of the bodies and more evidence MH yeah well he he did have to work with law enforcement this is a separate uh
situation going on where this is a basically a company you know that uh they don't work for the police
department but he is offering them some of some assistance yeah right okay but uh yeah yeah it's a it's an interesting
case was Bundy right on on things yes he was certainly right on a handful of things um and then other things you know
were were just guesses or he was talking about himself MH you know sad with Ted Bunny's help that they couldn't catch
Gary sooner MH yeah you know and I've often wondered had Ted Bundy been able to help them like right out of the right
out of the gate there and they would have been able to catch Gary Ridgeway a lot sooner especially what you know when
Bundy was still alive within the first couple of weeks that he was helping them would they have kept him alive longer do
you think and used him as some kind of investigative tool you know through for these other big cases going on
throughout the country I I've wondered where that would have gone had that worked out differently and that's Ted
Bundy yeah well Ted Bundy is one of the uh you know he's one of the more interesting and more fascinating serial
killers monsters that we've had to deal with and one that we've learned about through Tri True Crime and through his
crimes uh but one thing that makes him so interesting is you know his willingness at the end to
discuss these crimes his crimes and other people's crimes with law enforcement and with the media that he
is truly one that that is the best to study uh how about some recommended reading before we wrap up season 3 here
we don't worry don't worry we'll be coming right back for season 4 pretty quickly back in the garage we'll come
back in like uh 6 months yeah so we we're taking a six Monon break we'll be back in six months don't worry about
us so we've recommended some pretty good Ted Bundy books so far we had uh um the
Bundy murders by Kevin Sullivan and last week we recommended I survived Ted Bundy
uh this week uh one of my favorite one of the arguably one of the best True Crime authors of all time somebody that
knew Ted Bundy of course an rule we're talking about an rule and her book The Stranger Beside Me So if you want to
check out any of our recommended books if you want to pick one up I'm actually writing a book with the same title
Stranger Beside Me if you want to pick up any of our recommended books go to True Crim garage.com click on the
recommended page and we have a whole smattering of books there for you to check out and you can just click on the
Amazon banner and pick up your true crime books or anything else that you want to buy for the holiday season yeah
you can buy anything uh I just bought a nice bass fiddle not a bass fiddle bass guitar slap in the bass and you can buy
anything just go to True Crime garage.com click on the Amazon Banner buy all your gifts and they give a
little kick back to us with no charge to you that's right and we will see you back here in six months in the garage
and until next time two years and 6 months yeah and until next time be good be kind and don't
live [Music] Angie's List is now Angie and we've heard a lot of theories about why I
thought it was an Eco move few your worse less paper no it was so you could say it Master no it's to be more iconic
must be a tech thing but those aren't quite right it's because now you can compare up front prices book a service
instantly and even get your project handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us so much more than
just a list get started at angie.com that's ngi or download the app today

Ted Bundy and the Green River Killer ////// 66

TrueCrimeGarage.com

With Ted Bundy neatly tucked away in a Florida death row cell we can all just relax now right? Wrong! In 1982 the bodies of several young women were found in Washington state's Green River. Authorities unleash an investigation and manhunt almost the same size and scale of the "Ted Murders." With little to no real strong leads police are not optimistic. October 1, 1984 the Green River task force receives a letter from Mr. Theodore Robert Bundy offering his assistance to their investigation. Can one killer catch another and why would he want to help? We will ask these questions and many more tonight in the garage.

Beer of the week - Green by Tree House BrewingGarage Grade - 4 1/2 bottle caps out of 5Thank you all for a great season 3 we can't wait for season 4, see you in the garage!

Nic & The Captain

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Brief Summary

Nick and Captain discuss the Green River Killer, Ted Bundy's involvement, and the investigation's challenges in solving the case.

Key points

The Green River Killer. Police are hunting a mass murderer believed to have killed as many as 21 prostitutes.
Ted Bundy's Manipulation. Ted Bundy offers insight to the Green River task force from death row.
Ted Bundy's Insights. Bundy offers chilling insights into the mind of a killer, suggesting he may return to his victims' bodies.
The Media's Impact on Investigations. Media interference disrupts police plans to catch the Green River Killer, showcasing the challenges of high-profile cases.
Bundy's Final Interview. In his last interview, Ted Bundy reflects on his crimes and expresses remorse.
The Bundy Barbecue. The public's reaction to Bundy's execution was almost celebratory, dubbed the 'Bundy barbecue.'

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I guess I'm just lucky that I never came across that certain freak.

A young prostitute expresses her fear of the killer.

6:13WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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