MindHunter Season 2 /// Off The Record | Forensic Files

[Applause] [Music] [Applause] Oh, you can feel the excitement in the room. Way to be excited.
No, I was thinking I was bored on Saturday. Mhm. Saturday night. Um I had an exciting Saturday day which
led into a boring Saturday night. I like the old um saying uh if you're bored then you're boring. Mhm. So I always
penal I try to penalize myself when I'm bored. It's it's my fault I'm boring. Start yelling at yourself. smacked
yourself in the face. But I was like, I want to watch, you know, I'm super stoked as you are, as everybody else is
for Mind Hunter season 2. It feels like it's been 5 years in the making. Yeah. And I know it's coming out this month.
We're in August now, and it's coming out. Do we know that for sure, though? on on my Netflix. I don't know about
anybody else's, but on my Netflix, when I when I go over to uh and click on Minehunter, it it immediately says new
season starts and I think it says August 16th. I'm going off of memory here because I I think it's a Friday.
Yes. Yeah. And I was like I I even said I'm I was alone in my family room and I even said it out loud cuz I knew it was
starting in August but I was like very hopeful that that and I was sitting there going I have nothing to do
tonight. Why is it not starting tonight? Cuz I would have burnt through that thing pretty good. I could have I could
have gave a good uh I watched instead I watched the breakup and I watched Bill and Ted's excellent
adventure. I started the breakup uh last week just like randomly like had nothing
to do put it on just to be in the background. Have you seen it before? Yes. The first half is super funny I
think. Any just like Vince Vaughn's character Gary he's you know he's a talker right? But I I I remember like
the first time I watched it thinking, "Oh, this is really funny." And then the second time I was watching it, just like
I said, in the background, I kept on thinking, "Man, Gary is a dick." He is. Yeah. He's such a dick. But that's what
makes him funny. Like if if if you're willing to roll along with that character, you know, much like like uh
Danny McBride's character in Eastbounded Down, Kenny Powers, if you're willing to
accept that that the guy at his core is an [ __ ] that really only cares about what he
wants, then then you can you can roll with it and find him to be very funny, I think. Right. Yeah. I remember thinking
that when I watched it before, like they're both at fault here. And then the second time thinking, "Wow, this guy is
really a dick. Maybe just get maybe get that 10 piece, you know, get get the 10 lemons for the 10 piece lemon
centerpiece." 12. Was it 12 or whatever it was? Baby wants 12 lemons. 12. But I think my favorite part though, one of my
favorite parts anyway, is when they're at the at the opening scene where they're at Wrigley Field and Vince
Vaughn orders six hot dogs and he's with the purpose of giving one to Jennifer Aniston who he's going to try to hit on.
Yeah. Yeah. He's wooing. Yeah. And uh and he's he's eating the hot dog and he's like, I'm just going to sit here
and enjoy my hot dog. And the guy sitting next to him, he doesn't know him. The guy sitting next to him like
gives him a weird look and he Van looks at him and goes, "What? You have a problem with me eating a hot dog guy?"
And his buddy his buddy John Far. Why can I never know that guy's last name? John Farrell. Yeah, something like that.
The the chef. Uh he's like the director of like Iron Man. Super successful famous guy. Anyway, John's character, he
goes, "I'll slap him right in his head. I'll smack him right in his head. Well, we're just talking about this, too, cuz
Crime Con posted a video of this guy tossing trash out his car window, and uh this guy is cleaning it up, and
eventually a bigger guy comes over and takes the the pile of trash and tosses it back in the dude's car. Dude tries to
get out. The dude kicks the door a couple times. If you want to see that, that's on our on our Twitter profile.
But um yeah, being that guy that just is not afraid to say, "Hey, what are you doing?" Right? Stop doing that. Stop
being an [ __ ] You have a problem with me eating a hot dog guy? So, no baseball games this
weekend. I went on Thursday. The Clippers are terrible. Uh they've they've dropped a whole bunch since the
All-Star break. They were number one in minor league and then the All-Star break
happened and they they might as well have just lost every game since then. They've they've won very few games.
Yeah. Or maybe they'll turn it back around. Yeah. But yeah, so uh Saturday it's only I'm always on YouTube
and and it always suggests things to me. That's where I get down these weird rabbit holes. And I I think it might
have been because I was looking up some stuff. There's some controversy over um I think it's called Once Once Upon a
Time in Hollywood, which is the new Brad Pitt. Mhm. Um Leonardo DiCaprio movie and it's
loosely connected to Sharon Tate. And but what I love about it is I have not seen the movie
yet. So, but I've seen enough and watched enough interviews to know that that's in the story of these guys, but
it's not what the movie is about. And the article that I was reading or there were somebody was talking trash about
the article was article was basically saying you know you know they didn't really talk
much about the story and they and and they could have focused more on on Sharon Tate and what happened the Tate
Labiano murders. Yeah. the Charles Manson murders. And my my issue with it though,
uh, and what this guy was saying too was that's not what the movie was about, right? So, you're you're trying your
argument is the movie should have been more about that. Well, you don't go watch like a movie like B uh Bull Durham
and go, why don't they talk more about football? or you don't go watch Varsity Blues and say, you know, they didn't
really talk about the World Series at all. It makes no sense. It's like the dumbest argument I I've seen. Oh, yeah.
I went I went to see this movie Titanic and they But they never once talked about submarines.
Yeah, cuz that's not what The breakup could have focused more on the Cubs game, right? And hot dogs and Bill and
Ted's excellent adventure could have Why didn't they dive more into the story of
Jon of Arc? I mean, that's a brilliant story. Yeah, but it's because they're white males. But, uh, yeah, I didn't see
the criticism, but it sounds sounds silly. It's just Yeah, I mean, I understand. Why didn't they focus more
on this? Why don't you go write a movie, right? You're allowed to focus on whatever you want to focus on. Got a
problem with me writing a movie, guy? Yeah, it'd be like somebody saying, "Hey, I I listened to your latest
episode on the Deli murders. interesting stuff, but why isn't why isn't the episodes more about John Benet
Ramsay? It's just kind of a dumb argument and I understand that there, you know, there's um, you know,
there I think it's more by putting this and again, I haven't seen the movie yet,
but I think more it's about putting a time stamp on things. A lot of people when you talk to people
that lived in California or even people that followed a lot of true crime that was kind of
a and not even just true crime but I I was watching this some stuff on on Woodstock and sometimes when you're
watching these music documentaries and they talk about what was happening in California and what's what was happening
in New York that the Manson murders were a timestamp and they felt like everything kind it changed once that
happened. So, I think that's probably why the director said, "Hey, let's use this um as kind of an interesting
backdrop to what what is happening." So, anyways, I I need to watch that movie, but I think it's like 2 hours and 40
minutes long. Like that's a that's a whopper of a movie. But yeah, so Saturday I see the
clip trailer for Mine Hunter season 2. If you haven't seen season 1, use a dummy and you need to get on
it. But and then I sent you the clip. Mhm. And normally I don't get normally I don't get replies when I send you these
clips, but uh but yeah, I think you're pretty stoked about it. So, we're going to just play the audio of the clip. And
it's only a minute long, but there's a lot of what do they call those? Easter eggs in the trailer. So, we'll kind of
talk about those. So, let's play the trailer now. Have you got somebody holding someone you can't catch?
[Music] Darkness I feel you right by my side. I'm inside. This person you're after, he has an
overwhelming fantasy life. Fantasies of what he's done, what he wants to do. [Music]
These dreams will consume him. Soon the real world won't even compare. [Music] How do we catch a fantasy? If he's any
good, you can't. [Music] So, obviously the audio does not do that justice. No, we just you and I just
watched it uh a little bit ago and it was awesome to to listen to and then we play it there and it didn't sound so
great on my headphones and then I'm like and then on top of that I'm like that singer is not very good either. I
thought it was okay. I don't think it's a I don't think it's a bad choice for music. No, I think it's a good choice. I
just I I didn't realize it when we watched the clip, but how bad the singer was, right? listening to it, I'm like, I
I don't think she's hitting the notes there. So, there's a couple things happening. The first the scene that you
see is Ed Keer talking to talking to Holden and he's basically saying, "Hey, is there a guy that you can't
catch and that kind of sets the whole scene for season two?" Mhm. Well, that's what that to
me. Okay. So, so we know some things that are going to happen in season two. Well, things because of season 1, we can
assume, but that doesn't mean that they're not going to stray away from that, right? But I mean I'm more so from
the clip that we just watched, we know that there are some things that are going to happen too. Not not just but we
also anybody that has read the book Mind Hunter or followed John Douglas's career, you you know about where the
story has to go. I mean it's this the story is his story, his life, right? So, we know some things that are going to
happen, but for me, that that little conversation right there with Ed Keer is that is going to be the the entree, man.
That's going to be the big meat and potatoes. Yeah, that's going to be the big deal for me cuz I didn't anticipate
that. And what what's interesting about that is it appears that they may be having some kind of conversation where
before Holden and Bill Tench. Bill Yeah. So Holden and Bill are trying to learn about these individuals that they are
interviewing. Yeah. In this conversation, it sounds like they are telling him about somebody that they're
trying to catch, somebody they're trying to apprehend and wanting to get insights from Ed Keer
about who they may be looking for and how to catch him. So now we have a very we have a very
um Jack Crawford Hannibal Lecter type situation going on. Yeah. Meat and potatoes.
Now what's interesting though is is so we kind of know from before and some of the little scenes. And one of the things
I thought was so brilliant about Mine Hunter season 1 was every episode they would have these little clips maybe a
minute long, maybe 30 seconds long of this individual and you just kind of didn't know what his deal was. But but
they'd always tell you where he was from and it was Kansas City. So you do a little bit of the research even if you
haven't read the book, you would go, "Okay, this is the BTK killer." Yeah. Kansas City, Park City. Yeah. You It's
always Kansas. Yeah. So, knowing that, knowing that he was never really in season one other than these little
clips, which I just thought was art artistically I just thought was brilliant. And then then you see this
scene where there's this rope that is tied to something that is tied to a door handle and the door is shaking a little
bit and it is freaky. Mhm. And then there's another scene where you see an individual that is wearing the now
infamous um BTK mask. Mhm. And and he had multiple masks, but there was one that that probably is the scariest one.
The one that looks more like human uh flesh tone like as far as cuz some of his mask would be like bright, you know,
bright white with, you know, kind of clown makeup almost. Mhm. This one was more like, you know, skin tone with
lipstick. And you see a clip of somebody wearing that mask. A lot of those masks,
from my understanding, were always that skin tone, that flesh color, but he would he would apply makeup to the mask
at different in different ways. And he would some of that was he would try to apply makeup to the mask to mimic one of
his victims. Yeah. And the way that the victim would wear their makeup or makeup
that he may have stole from their their house or their purse or something like that. But uh and one of the victims was
found with a with a mask on. And it's believed, I don't know if it's if I should say if it's believed or if we
know according to Dennis Rder's words, he he did return to the body because it wasn't discovered. He this
was one of the rare ones that he placed out in the uh wilderness somewhere out in the woods. And so he returned to the
body to photograph the body. And I don't remember if he when he placed her there
if he if the mask was already on her or if when he returned he applied the mask to the body and then took the
photographs. But yeah, so that that scene that you're seeing there is something we heard directly from John
Douglas when when I spoke with him on the phone when he was saying, "Hey, you know, Dennis Rder told me that he was
almost caught a couple times." And the times that he was almost caught was because his wife walked in on him when
he was, you know, playing dress up and Yeah. uh you know tying himself up and something like that and and his wife
caught him I think twice according to John Douglas. So what we're seeing there is what Raider was saying was you know I
wasn't almost caught by police. I was almost caught by to the point of my wife either leaving me and I'm certain some
paranoia of well my wife might figure out who I am. You know, BTK was certainly a big deal in that area for a
long time. A and he he was able to live undetected underneath the same roof as this lady. And you know, I was actually
talking with somebody on our blog last week about Deli and we were talking about the um trading back some thoughts
on the audio clip that they have, you know, of of the killer saying guys down the hill. And one thing that I brought
up, and I don't think that I brought this up when we were talking about it, but sometimes when I listen to
it, that clip of the deli killer, sometimes when I listen to it, when they don't when they don't tell me at the
bottom of the screen what he's saying, guys, down the hill, and I'm allowed to use my own
imagination or use just my ears to determine what I think that I'm hearing. Sometimes I think I hear guys get down
the hill. Guys get down the hill. And I brought this up on our blog with in talking with several people for for just
the simple fact that we know Dennis Rder was recorded when he called to report one of his crimes, one of his murders.
He was recorded when he called the operator and they played that audio clip. I mean, how weird, right? these
these cases and investigations, a lot of them have have some similarities. Yeah.
Mimic each other. Yeah. And so they played his the the audio clip of him talking to the the operator on like the
the night nightly news that night and he and his wife were sitting there in the family room watching the news together.
She hears the audio and she says to Dennis, "Hey, you know, you sound a lot like the BTK killer." And Dennis in just
in the heat of the moment, probably on the inside, he's he's going crazy, right? Sweating bullets. But on the
outside, he's like he he shrugs it off. He's like, "Ha, you're not the first person to tell me that or or you're not
the only one that has told me that." He says something very just in the moment and his wife didn't think twice about
it. And that's one thing that and then he said, "Can you go make me some meat and potatoes?" But then that that makes
you think about Deli and the bridge guy and has the people closest to him heard.
Well, question for you because I I don't um know offhand and you probably know being the true crime expert.
Um Dennis Raider, how long did it take for them to catch him? several decades. Three decades. Yeah, let's say a little
more than three decades. So, he started killing what was that 7374. Just pardon me, I'm going off in
memory here. But one thing that's interesting about BTK and the FBI and John Douglas and uh Robert K wrestler
who who Bill Tet tench t what his last name is. I don't know what that character's name is, but he's supposed
to be Robert K. Wrestler. Okay. So, uh, wrestler and Douglas did have some loose involvement
with BTK back in the day, but but it was very, it's weird that it's mixed up in this whole Mine Hunter story
because because you're saying they're not the guys that hunted hunted him down. Yeah, they weren't really actively
searching for BTK. That was more on the local level, more on the state level, not so much on the federal level. And it
wasn't because that they didn't want the the uh behavioral science unit involved.
And it's actually called something different in real life, but that's what the general public thinks that it's
called. Uh the it's not that they didn't want them involved. They certainly sought out their expertise and wanted
their opinions on some things. But it was more so that there were they were so actively working these other
cases. Yeah. And there was also the problem with BTK too was there was times when he was not actively killing people.
And so they were that confused law enforcement and confused the FBI to the point where they thought, "Oh, he went
away. He moved. He died. He's in prison for something else." So unfortunately when you have other
cases it also makes it seem like that's not a priority. You know I hate to say it that way but that's the truth. Um so
they weren't super active. They did give a lot of of thoughts and opinions on BTK
and we went through a lot of that information when we covered BTK in what three episodes. Yeah.
And one of the the most interesting things about BTK was the relationship with the FBI and the on the state level
when they would analyze his writings and the things that he would send to newspapers and what what information
they tried to gain and gather about this killer from the stuff that he was providing to them. Right now, what you
can see in the clip for Mine Hunter season 2 is okay. So, they've returned to talk to Ed Keer. We know from talking
to John Douglas ourselves that he he said that Keer was one of the more fascinating, more interesting killers
that he spoke to. One, because Keer liked to talk so much and Keer was extremely smart. So he could articulate
things in a way that other killers could not to the to him and to Robert Kay wrestler. Well, and also I think you
know you have you know artistic license to kind of shift the series however you want. Doesn't have to necessarily go
with the books and and that's where I'd kind of be interested to know from the writer standpoint. Uh you know what was
Ed's involvement like going to be? Was that predetermined before season 1? Was season two even wrote yet? You know,
um because if I'm writing season two and we're not writing till after season 1, Ed's character is so great that you
almost want to How can we write him in? Yeah. He's the star of season one. Yeah.
And so I I so that I would be interested just on a creative level. Is is this was
this planned uh in advanced or or did we know uh that Ed was going to be coming back? And and maybe Ed's going to be a
guy that kind of, you know, kind of like Holden and Bill kind of continues throughout the
season or throughout the series, you know, as they develop more u seasons on this. So, the other couple things that
we see that are interesting, uh, speaking of Sharon Tate was that you see a, um, a frame that looks like Charles
Manson. Mhm. So, there's We're going to see something about him in this one, I would assume.
Yeah, they they interviewed Charles Manson. Um, I think the dude that's playing Manson actually played Manson in
something else as well, right? So, I think like I mean he looks a lot like pictures that we see of Manson from that
time period. Can you imagine though? I mean, you know, poor guy gets casted in a thing and you're probably h happy to
have the work, but it's like it's cuz I look a lot like him. And then you get cast in another thing. Hey, who's the
guy that played Charles in the other thing? Let's just get him. I I think though the way that I read the read this
was it was like a um it was kind of an attab boy like you did such a good job the first time that now now you're
you're that guy and and yeah, nobody wants to look like Charles Manson, but you can you can just shave and get a
haircut and then you don't look like Charles Manson. Well, that would be almost as if
um somebody said, "Look, Ed Keer is so interesting in this Mine Hunter series. Let's do a spin-off and do a eight-part
series with Ed Keer." Um, I could see a lot of people interested in watching something like that. But again, it's
just the fact that you look enough like this individual, this this awful individual. So, you see Ed Keer, you
also see Burkowisk. Am I saying that correctly? David Burkowitz. Yeah. And um Be elabub, the chubby bohemoth. The
chubby bohemoth. Yeah. Um so you see Son of Sam and and that's interesting. And again that that just puts a giant
timestamp if you if you haven't seen Son uh Summer of Sam I think is the name of
the movie um with John Leguisama which was also in the chef. Um but yeah, so um it's it's a timestamp
of the the 70s and then you pointed out uh something that I um I think I got the
second time or the third time that I watched, but the scene that I got was you kind of see a car driving along
going slow and uh there's a little black boy maybe um 10, 12 years old, something like
that. Mhm. And when I saw that image, I thought, "Oh, Atlanta child murders." But I didn't I didn't know that for
sure. And then when we were talking about the trailer just, you know, seconds ago, you you brought that up.
Uh, which is a good point, you know, good pointing that out. But there's also other scenes in the trailer that once
you set it and we rewatch the trailer, you go, "Oh, that that could be actually, you know, you can't tell from
a trailer obviously cuz you don't know why they picked which clips or what they're trying to do." But it's only a
minute long trailer and there's more clips of that than there are of Charles Manson. So again, maybe they just show a
interview with Charles Manson. Maybe they just show an interview with Son of Sam. But maybe this is a bigger part of
the story is kind of what you were saying. Well, what will be interesting to me is if that conversation between
Holden and Ed Keer, who's that about because on the surface you want to go, well, that might be about BTK, but it
also very likely could be about the at the Atlanta child killer. Well, they might never even talk about the BTK for
all we know. It could be because they didn't in season one. They just show these little clips, right? And what I
stated at the I think the middle of season 1 or or as as I was watching it, me and you were talking about it, I said
it would be genius, absolute genius if they don't even get to BTK on the second se uh season and still
have him be like this recurring we show a minute, 2 minute clip of BTK every episode and keep that going because we
obviously know that he wasn't caught. in the 70s. So, and it seems like this whole time frame, it's not like a true
detective where it's going back and forth in time and everything. So, um I would assume that, you know, they're
obviously not going to catch him. That doesn't mean they might not bring him up in their talks, but
um like you said, is this is this conversation that we hear at the beginning is this about uh Dennis Raider
or is this about the Atlanta child murders? Yeah. So, from my understanding, I think John Douglas had
some had some loose involvement. the FBI had some loose involvement in the BTK case and I think it was fairly early on.
Right. Right. And so this was a case that as it continued they weren't really active in the actual investigation. Now
Dennis Rder was not apprehended until 2005 and he started killing in the early 70s.
So, this was always like um kind of a hobby case for John Douglas. It was one that he always kept
an eye on from afar and kept if he were ever in the area working another case, he would go and hope to get some
information. And so, he always kept an eye on this case. And so the way that I think that the story if I was a betting
man uh what I man here here's the way that I would I would I I love this. We're we're trying to deduce what
somebody might do with with something that you can fictionalize in parts. I read somewhere a year or so ago
that that Mine Hunter is already predetermined to be five seasons. That's it and that's all. So, five seasons,
which which is kind of a real kick in the in the a real kick in the junk there, cuz
you want as many seasons as possible, but kick in the grundle. So, let's just absorb that kick together, friends.
Let's absorb. A moment of silence. Well, to me I I it's weird because um as we've you know I think what we
start 2015 something like that and somebody mentioned the other day that during the question and answer I said
true crime is not my thing and and I I stand by that. It's it's not my thing. It's a percentage. You know
everybody has percentage. Some people true crime is it's 98% of everything they do. I back then I I and I stand by it.
It's a percentage. But the more cases that we have covered, the psychology of what is
happening in the actual murder and the planning of the murder and then and the search for the murderer has fascinated
me more and more every year that we have dove into this. And then the psych again
the psychology of the detectives and we kind of talked about this with the deli when when he brings
up a a movie about this cabin about grief and everything and again I think it's just
he was presenting an idea the sergeant was presenting an idea that that a community was grieving and this movie
was about grieving. But little things like that I've been hanging on to so much. And when True
Detective season 3 came out and again they're fictional works, but I think it's the psychology of these people
trying to figure out and and just last week I went back and read and we we've done this on several
cases where you're reading the profile that the FBI came up with or somebody came up with and then when they catch
the bastard, the profile fits It's so similar. It's so similar. There's things in there when the
profile's made that you're like, "What?" Most of the time, yeah, I I think the the majority of the time, but it's it's
really to me no different. And this is what I think is fascinating about it. It's, you know, when you're playing when
you're playing poker, okay, you're sitting at a table playing poker, you know what cards you have in your hand.
You might know if you're playing Texas Holdem, you know what cards are on the table. You do not know what cards your
opponents have and you do not know what cards still remain in the deck, right? And that and that's very similar to
crime in the sense of right if you're a detective, you know what you hold and then what's on the table that that's the
murder that's the murder scene. That's the that's the scenario. But the thing is, you know, when you're looking at
your cards and and the cards that are on the table, regardless of not knowing what your your opponents have, you know
that a full house beats a straight. So, if you're chasing a full house because you think that somebody else may have a
a straight or something uh higher than what you currently hold in your hand, you can mathematically go, okay, well,
judging by the cards that I have in my hand and the cards that are on the table, how many opportunities does that
leave me to get to that full house, right, that wins? Okay, it's the same thing with with what
they're doing in the profile. And what's so genius about Robert Wrestler and John
Douglas, what they did was they're like, "Look, let's go interview all of these known serial killers that are behind
bars. Let's interview them. Find out who they are, what they're into, what what makes them tick, right? What cards are
they holding?" Yeah. And then from there, you you go, "Okay, well, we have this unsolved case, and here's what we
know based off of the evidence. how can we apply what we've learned, the knowledge that we've already established
from these killers that we've already interviewed. So, and then they're just going to apply that. It's it's kind of a
numbers game is what you're doing where you're going, okay, well, we've seen that uh a lot of times these people grew
up to they were abused, they abused animals, they killed animals, they wet the bed, uh they were stutters or, you
know, there played with fire. Yeah, they played with fire. There's all these different things and they go, "Okay,
well, it's just a numbers game because we've seen that the majority of the time by killers who do this or do that and
then apply it to your unsolved case with with season two and going forward with season 3, four, and five. The way that I
think that this whole story is going to play out is I think that you're going to
continue to see clips of Dennis Raid or BTK who they will not be actively investigating for most of these clips.
Most of them have just so far been him by himself or he's waiting the one where he's waiting in the home. Remember that
case? We talked about that one where the the woman just never just never came home, right? And he got fed up and he
left. So, they showed a clip of that in season 1. And now you see that he's he's
doing the thing with ADT, which we know that that uh was provided him the ability to drive around and not have to
answer to a lot of people or account for his time. I think what you're going to see with BTK is that's going to be
that's going to be the end of the whole five seasons. I think it's going to continue to build up and build up and
build up. And then season five will be the apprehension of Dennis Rder as well as John Douglas going to interview
Dennis Rder because we know that he interviewed him after he was locked up. I think Douglas was actually retired at
the time and asked for special permission to go interview Dennis Rder. And Raider with with the egoomaniac that
Raider is, he gladly accepted an interview with John Douglas. I mean, Raider read true crime, right, most of
his life and probably read several of John Douglas's books, but well, so we got we got season 1 done, season
270s, season 3 maybe 80s, season 49s, season 5 2000s 2005. So that would make sense if
they do it that way. I think season two will end in the early 80s because the Atlanta child murders took place between
79 and 81 or or this one could end in early 80s. That's what I mean. Season two. Well, okay. I'm sorry. I'm half
half awake. Yeah. So, season two is going to feature, I think, for a large portion of season 2, the Atlanta child
murders, right? And that took place from 79 to 81. Uh Wayne Williams, I'm guessing it might
might have been as late as 82 that he was convicted. I guarantee you they're going to go through the trial in this
season. They're going to they're going to do that as kind of a complete story. Now, what will be interesting too is
what other cases, unsolved cases, do they investigate along the way? Because the whole idea that we are presented
with in season 1 is that while we were out either teaching uh this method to police departments or
to law enforcement agencies, we will then visit killers in the area who are who are inmates in the area and
interview them at that time. Or, you know, we're out investigating an unsolved case and and
we go conduct these interviews around the same time. So, I wonder if there's just going to be less of that because we
like we've we've already seen like I said, Son of Sam, um Charles Manson, we've seen that they talked to Keer. Um
so, I just wonder if there's going to be more of of talking to the killers and less um them solving crimes because
there was a lot of crimes la last season. Well, it makes me wonder if they're going to be investigating a
crime in California where we know Manson is housed. Yeah. Uh and then in New York
where we know David Burkowitz, right, serving time and um so that will be interesting. I think
that um if I remember correctly, there was a crime in New York and I a murder that took place in New York and I don't
know if it would line up at the same time period, but there was a crime that this murder took place and and I I can't
remember the victim's name and I'm not going to go into detail because it could be part of season 2. It was one of those
murders where the profile solved the crime, which is super rare, super super rare, but it was an instance where the
profile itself led to the direct apprehension of the the killer. Interesting. And I know it took place in
New York, so it would be interesting if that's why they are interviewing David Burkowitz
uh at the same time. If that if that tends to match up with it. And I love John Douglas and but Douglas
um there are several things that he likes to point out and one of those is when he is right and and he likes to
remind us of when he is right and that is that's why he likes to do that though but but it's also his job when you think
about it because that that division and that method of investigation and that that investigative tool that they they
came up with and put together some people don't have any belief in it. And so in a way to keep
that around, you do have to sell that. You have to sell what you're making. Mhm. You know, that could have went
away. Something that these guys were doing very well. And and there's others. There's Roy Hazelwood. There's many
other uh FBI agents that were involved in this program for many, many years. Um, but you know, I took some criticism
one time that people say all you Nick, whoever you only talk about John Douglas and and uh Robert
Wrestler and uh so I wanted to give Hazelwood some credit there. But keep in mind that's who Mine Hunter is about,
who this show is about, and that's why we we got to it so often. So, Atlanta child murders, that's going
to be super interesting because if anybody listened to our our coverage, which was a long time ago, long time,
get this get the Stitcher app and listen to it for free. But, uh, it it was one of those
cases where they brought in the super cops and the FBI was brought in as part of this task force. This Atlanta child
killing case is a monumental case. It was huge at the time. It because there were so many murders happening so
quickly that the whole nation was basically watching Atlanta, right? For those for those two years once this
thing picked up and got legs and started running, the whole country was watching
Atlanta. and this task force and the FBI went in there and they stomped out the problem. They shook some trees and and
and Wayne Williams fell out of one of those trees and they they locked them up. Now, what's weird about that case
is there are some that say Wayne Williams didn't do it. Wayne Williams is one of those people. Wayne Williams is
complete [ __ ] He absolutely killed several people. He may not have killed all 28. There were 28 victims in that
two-year time period. That's a lot of victims in a short period of time. He has actually only been convicted of two
of those 28. So 26 of those are technically unsolved cases. Many of those 26 he very likely was the killer.
Um it's also very likely that he didn't kill all 26 of those unsolved cases. that the one or two or three may have
may have been another killer that just got lumped in with his activity at the time. But one thing that's interesting
is in March of this year, the the city came together and went to the mayor and said, "Look, those unsolved cases, can
you can you have the agencies that were investigating them at the time, can you have them reopen those cases because
here we are now over 30 years later, Yeah. technology has changed, detective work and investigative tools have
changed, and they're saying, "Let's go ahead and if if if Wayne Williams did more of these, and we can we can
definitively say that, let's close out some of these cases." Yeah. So, it'd be interesting to see what they come up
with that. I mean, that was just March of this year, so um you would think we might start hearing some movement on
those. I don't know if if if they're using DNA in in in some of those cases. That's not what they said, but Right.
Right. But I'm sure that on in some of the cases they could. And and what I always wondered was because it became
such a national story and some of the stuff that I was reading about the KKK in that area is is is that it opened up
a opportunity. you know, you have these kids being murdered and then it opens up
an opportunity for you to move into the area and possibly do do some things. So,
I not saying that that is what happened, but it always frustrates me when you're talking with individuals
about cases like this and and they can't see the idea that it could be it doesn't
have to just be, you know, did this guy kill all the kids, you know, he either killed them all or he didn't kill any of
them. And I don't think that's um really how that case probably would shake down if we're able to dive into
each each case individually. I think he might be responsible for most of them, but I think that because of that
situation, it's kind of like back with like um the vanishing women from Chilocafi. You have a couple women go
missing. That opens up, I think, opportunity for other killers. Possibly the same thing with like um Long Island
serial killer. Well, and the thing too that's so important to the story of Minehunter, the Atlanta child case was
huge for the the behavioral science unit, the BSU, because there was a threat of it going away, of that unit
going away, that the FBI was going to decommission that unit and that in that um and that might be a part of season
two. Well, it should be because it they were going to decommission the unit or there were talks of doing that and then
when the super cops and the task force was put together in the Atlanta case and then solved the Atlanta case, that's
when it it it changed everything. That's when it it skyrocketed and they're like,
"Well, we have to have this unit." The the the the biggest case in, you know, some people were calling that the
biggest case in in American history at the time. And it was certainly one of the biggest serial killer cases of all
time. It it gets it gets dismissed by current day because it was so short of a time period and it's not one that's
that's talked about a whole heck of a lot. But at the time and anybody that lived through that that's old older than
me, I was too I was just a you know one or two years old when that whole thing was going on. But anybody that was a
teenager or an adult at that time will tell you that case was huge. And when the FBI and the task force came in there
and straightened this whole thing out, look, they were not close to solving it until the super cops came in.
And the first thing that the BSU did when they came in was they put together a profile of the killer. And at the
time, the general public and law enforcement believed that the killer was likely white. Well, the FBI and these
super cops in the task force, they started going into these neighborhoods where the kids were disappearing from.
And the first thing that they noticed was they stood out like a sore thumb and that the general public in those areas
were not so receptive to seeing a couple white guys in a suit driving around in a
car that they didn't recognize. And so the first thing that they came up with in their profile was the killer is
African-American. The victims are African-American. And the reason why they came up with that was this guy
would have been caught. Had he been white, he would have been he would have been noticed and remembered by more
people in the area. The reason why Wayne Williams went undetected was he fit into
the area of where he was abducting his victims. People did. He didn't stand out for any reason. He wasn't anything
special. He fit into that area. And it was just that simple twist. And when they released that
profile, that changed everything because a lot of people challenged that and said, you brought in these guys that
it's like they're they're looking into a crystal ball and they're they're doing something we don't understand. It's
hocus pocus, man. Yeah. And turns out that they were right. And I don't care what anybody says, especially Wayne
Williams, who who claims his innocence. And I I don't won't have a conversation with anybody that says says Wayne
Williams is innocent for this very fact. And they they will point this out in season two 100%. And this is one of my
favorite moments for John Douglas's career. They So they weren't convinced that they were going to get a conviction
of Wayne Williams. Wayne Williams is such an egoomaniac and thought that he was so smart, so much smarter than the
police. He was taunting the police like when he he started putting bodies in the
water because he would watch the news and they're like, "We found some evidence on this body." He's like, "All
right, cool. I'll change up what I'm doing." And then when the police would issue some kind of warning and and and
tell people not to do this, tell the public not to do that, he would go out of his way to commit a murder that would
involve what their warning was. So in a way he was he was playing a game with them not only for his own fantasy but to
be this serial killer much like Dennis Rder playing a game with them right and so he was such an egoomaniac that he
said he told his lawyer I'm going to take the stand they don't have [ __ ] on me and I'm going to get up there I'm
smarter than this prosecutor I'm smarter than the jury I'm smarter than the judge
I'm going to get up there I'm going to defend myself and when I get off the stand they're going to They have nothing
on me. They're going to let me go. So the FBI, the BSU spoke with the prosecutor and the prosecuting team for
days and days and days and they said, "What you have to do is get him to lose control on the stand. You have to you
have to trick him. He thinks he's smarter than you. He is going to have an answer for everything you say. So you
need to wind him up like a toy. And then eventually you let him go. And if you give him enough rope, he'll hang
himself. And with Wayne Williams, for anybody that thinks that he's innocent, he you got as close to a
confession as you can possibly get with this individual. So the prosecutor starts winding him up, right? Wayne
Williams is on the stand and the prosecutor comes in there peppering him with questions, statements, body blow,
body blow, jab, jab, pepper him, pepper him, pepper him. He gets Wayne Williams so wound up that Wayne is now question
boom answer question boom answer question boom answer and then the prosecutor gets louder and louder and
louder and closer and closer and closer and then he leans in right into Wayne Williams's face and he said when you
were choking those children and you saw the look in their eyes were you afraid and Wayne Williams said
no he wound him up and got him that's as close to a confession as you're going to
get and it was with that one word, no that that jury convicted Wayne Williams of two of the murders. Now, after the
trial, the media was so fascinated by these super cops and by the BSU and John Douglas that came in from the FBI and
really took this case, this investigation that was going absolutely nowhere. They weren't going to solve
this thing. They they were not going to solve this thing until the super cops came in. And so the media is fascinated
by this whole new process as was America that they interviewed John Douglas. Now
this is where same thing though, John Douglas, I love him, but you give him enough rope and he'll hang himself as
well. And this is where John Douglas's uh name skyrocketed. This is where when John Douglas not only became famous, but
he also got in hot water with the FBI because they asked, remember there was still controversy at the time. Did Wayne
Williams, was he the Atlanta child killer? Was he the man who killed 28 people, some children, some adults? And
Douglas very publicly said, you know, he he was kind of walking and they they they shove a microphone in his face and
ask him a couple questions. Was is Wayne Williams the the Atlanta child killer? Did he kill 28 people? And Douglas says,
"Well, I like him for a lot of these or I like him for most of these." Right? So
that's Douglas, too admitting 100% he doesn't know if Wayne Williams killed all these people, but he certainly
killed a good good bunch of them. And so this got Douglas in trouble with the FBI
because they're like, "Look, you can't be commenting on a on a case in the public like that." um especially not
without without our permission without permission from from your higher ups. But this this little clip, this little
interview was played across the country. And that's where again Douglas became became a a name that was known
throughout law enforcement, right? But but he also got himself in hot water with the FBI. Well, if you can't
tell you crazy animals that we're excited about season two of Mine Hunter, then you got some problems.
I think Nick just went on the 20-minute ride. I'm sorry, but Yeah. No. Yeah. Somebody put on our blog like a month or
so ago, they're like, "Uh, I I feel like True Crime Garage is just one long commercial for uh Mine Hunter." Well,
maybe it is. Maybe it is. Maybe that's the genius of Mine Hunter. Maybe we're six son of a [ __ ] Yeah, we're we're
puppets and and John Douglas is behind. He's above the garage for all you guys. Manipulating. Yeah, our show was started
by the FBI. This started by the FBI in a garage. All right, we said too much. Shut it down.
All right. So, Mind Hunter, check out the trailer and uh you say season 2 starts when you think I think it's um
I'm going to look at a calendar here because I think it's a Friday and we're getting close. I think it's Friday the
16th [Applause]

MindHunter Season 2 /// Off The Record Episode: 67 Released: 8-5-2019 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com #truecrimepodcast #truecrime #crime #crimenews #news #truecrimegarage

Brief Summary

Nick and Chris discuss <i>Mind Hunter</i> season 2, movie insights, and criminal psychology.

Key points

Mind Hunter Season 2 Anticipation. Excitement builds as the release date for Mind Hunter season 2 approaches.
The Breakup Movie Analysis. A discussion on the character dynamics in The Breakup, highlighting Vince Vaughn's role.
BTK Killer Insights. Exploring the chilling details of the BTK killer's life and his interactions with law enforcement.
The Atlanta Child Murders. A monumental case that captivated the nation in the late 70s and early 80s.
Wayne Williams' Controversial Conviction. Wayne Williams was convicted of two murders, but many believe he may have killed more.
The Profile That Changed Everything. The FBI's Behavioral Science Unit created a profile that identified the killer as African-American.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Wow, this guy is really a dick.

Commenting on a character's personality in a movie.

3:12WatchMay 12, 2025

Tension

50/ 100Some tension

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