Mind Hunter: John Douglas /// Part 1 /// 445 | Forensic Files

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foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music] Douglas started his career with the FBI in 1970. in the field he served as a
hostage negotiator he transferred to the FBI's Behavioral Science unit or BSU for
short in 1977 where he taught hostage negotiation and applied criminal psychology at the FBI Academy in
Quantico Douglas later went on to create and manage the FBI's criminal profiling
program while traveling around the country providing instruction to law enforcement agencies Douglas began
interviewing serial killers and other violent sex offenders at various prisons he interviewed some of the most notable
violent criminals as part of the study including David Berkowitz Ted Bundy John Wayne Gacy Charles Manson and Edmund
Kemper he used the information gathered from these interviews he examined crime scenes and created profiles of the
perpetrators describing their habits and attempting to predict their next move in
cases where his work helped to capture the criminals he built strategies for interrogating and Prosecuting them as
well Douglas first made a public name for himself with the involvement in the Atlanta child murders Douglas first made
a public name for himself with his involvement in the Atlanta child murders case back in 1977 to 1981. he is the
author of two of the garage's favorite true crime books mind Hunter and the cases that haunt us and he's joining us
here in the garage today via telephone and Mr Douglas it is an honor to have you joining us once again well thank you
first off Mr Douglas everybody wants to know will there be season three of mine hunter you certainly have the inside
track what can you tell us will it happen and when I tell you the uh now it's like 2 months ago I got a call from
Holt mcalleny who plays Bill tench character he stayed with me uh when he was developing his part in the show and
but he he sounded kind of grim and was that all the actors want to return but it was a question with uh David Fincher
the director he spent so much time so much time filming it in Pittsburgh he for each each season he spent about
seven months there and he's such a perfectionist that the actors are working almost the entire year on the
you know on each uh on each series what they were saying he that he's uh you know exhausted I just don't personally
understand that neither the uh some of the actors uh why don't you get use some other directors uh some
there were other directors involved in season one and season two of the 19 total episodes and two seasons Fincher
did did seven of them personally did seven but when he did the series House of Cards he started it but then other
other directors took over over for the uh for the show so I don't I mean it just
uh everyone's you know is hoping he got tremendous ratings the reviews were were
all you know all good but I I mean it doesn't uh for now it's not I mean he takes you know if you can
recall season two the first episode I just get an idea there was a barbecue scene with Bill tench and he's meeting
his neighbors we're finding out for the first time kind of what he does with the
profiling and at Quantico and all that he started asking questions that that scene
was repeated seven nearly 75 times 75 times before uh Fincher approved it how he wanted that scene uh to go I mean uh
and it's and because I it made he's made he's made the Netflix a lot of money you
know if it was if it was anyone else they say that would say okay that's fine we'll get another director but no there
they're not doing it but I just the back of my mind I just think they will at some point yeah I mean I may be dead and
buried but at some point I hope they'll bring it back there's so much more to tell I'm even season two the Atlanta
child killings uh I mean that and and and you're you know you're uh people listen to your show have to
realize that's based on the book but it's not the book uh the like the Atlanta case did not go down like that
in fact in reality I thought it went down in the real way went down a lot more dramatic and my role in that case
as far as coaching the the prosecution uh on how to to interrogate him when he would take the stand uh my attitude with
toward the uh the uh the the prosecutors and experts that the FBI and the state run in there and how how uh they they
were going to throw my ass out of there they did because I was just so critical of them uh on how they testified they
were so technical no one could even understand what they were were saying I mean I couldn't understand what they
were saying uh and the defense experts that they brought in talk they may have been saying stuff
that's not correct uh their analysis but it was it was clear it was something that the jurors could follow and they
were nodding in their heads like an agreement with with the with their experts so
um there's so much you know so they they didn't finish that case I was thinking of season three they
got that case I mean they got they have I think there's so many different cases the Ted Bundy case they could do Robert
Hanson up in Alaska who hunted women down like wild animals which set them loose
in the wilderness and uh and you have that case the you have that Buffalo 22 Caliber Killer I mean it's just there's
the Tylenol case then cases of smaller no one really the public doesn't even know about but just very very
interesting interesting uh you know cases and they it may not follow the book they're kind of interpreting it the
way they want to but but it's uh it's it's better than some of the other shows that uh uh that that I've seen even like
with Criminal Minds it was a very successful show but but Behavioral Science unit we don't when you you're in
that unit you don't go you're not out making arrests you're not taking cases away from police you're not kicking down
doors you know it's cerebral When You Reach when you reach the uh the unit and you're a coach you're you're coaching uh
FBI you're coaching local law enforcement on on uh on on how to to investigate or or you know or lead them
you know in the best direction for saying on Unknown Subject uh okay so uh what they portrayed in Mindhunters
series was good yeah hopefully it's a five year it was a five-year Arc to the show it's supposed to be on for
five years uh and uh then there's plenty of cases to fill up those five years so
we will see yes when asked to give a brief description about mind Hunter when I recommend the show to friends and family
I always say it's the more adult more intelligent real life version of Criminal Minds
yeah I mean it's just uh it's such interesting in that kind of that kind of show today and these crime uh
conferences around the country it just it's amazing when I haven't done any public speaking because the covet virus
but when I've been going out the conferences 80 90 of the audience are women uh too that are really uh really
into the this well they want to know because they too they're the victims of the of the kind of violent crimes that I
and my colleagues have worked over the years and they're interested in to better understand the personality
what creates these people what makes these people you know uh different than we are what what was their backgrounds
was it predictable that they would commit the you know these types of uh types of crimes and uh and now with all
these dating services you know meeting people and you know at locations you don't know yeah just because someone
puts a nice picture up and gives you this Background by this little bio doesn't mean that's who the person
really is uh my mother when my I since passed away she used to tell my sister when you meet when you meet a man
or boy if this was years ago even a boy ask him what his relationship is with his mother and my mother was was right
on the money there because of the people who have interviewed some of the most violent offenders there was always an
issue on the mother's side where they were there was this abuse or neglect of some of some type uh going on with them
uh and uh it's they loved their mother and same time that hated their mother when I interviewed Gary heidnick from
Philadelphia who kept women in the pit like in the movie Silence of the Lambs I interviewed him Leslie Stahl with 60
minutes just got to 60 minutes that's how long ago it was in 1991 and followed me into Pittsburgh to interview where I
interviewed Gary heidnick and when I got around to talking about his mother he just went absolutely nuts you know and
and crying and and uh you know and he he loved her and hated her all at the same
time and she was very very abusive you know toward him and this is not to say that everyone is good is abused will
turn out to be a violent you know anything but I'm just saying of the people who I've interviewed uh rarely I
I can't think of one that you could say came from some loving nurturing kind of background we all have some type of
dysfunction you know in their lives let's talk about the still unsolved terrorizing murders and threats from the
unidentified serial killer who called himself the Zodiac you reviewed and profiled the Zodiac case years after the
fact and still were able to offer up some very fascinating and intriguing analysis about the crimes and the person
who committed them yeah the uh well with the Zodiac we never I think the unit really never got
involved with the uh the analysis of that case we've had a lot of people come forward over the years there's been
different suspects you know uh you know developed um when that case was going on we really
didn't even have a behavioral science unit when we when we finally got the case uh it was it was when so-called
zodiac was writing a communication wrote a communication to the detective who was
assigned to the case he had a private office a private line hotline and uh so we got we were going to do an analysis
of the communication we could call psycholinguistic analysis or this is just you're doing a profile of the
author of the communication uh the the uh police immediately called us up and said stop them forget about it you know
why why we figured out who wrote the communication who was it the detective wow yeah the detective wrote the
communication himself to he's trying to because he had not had any good leads no
leads everything just died there was nothing going on and to perpetuate the case he wrote this so-called letter from
the uh you know the the uh the Zodiac so uh but as far as I mean it's it's a case
if it was a case today I I think we would be successful uh when you get a case like that
uh uh and and how I was evolving in when I was the unit Chief in the bureau and training others it's I was kind of
de-emphasizing the profile because because the whole the idea of a profile is you're trying to generate leads
you're trying to try to uh Peak the mind of interest of people who may know some of the uh the
characteristics of uh that are fitting this character uh the person responsible for the crime so I began to focus in
more on on proactive techniques and uh to to maybe get the subject uh to inject himself in the investigation or get the
subject to to go to a particular location uh because we we may have planted something there we may have had
a memorial service there uh and uh just give you an example I was saying I I was sent to go before
the uh Internal Affairs they call opr Office of professional responsibility and and which is not good when you go
before Internal Affairs and and so I went I went before a whole group and they said John you're not lying are you
to uh to the media through the media to the public you're not lying are you I said so what do you mean are you telling
the truth I said well I don't know I said let me give you an example I said this is the case and I told them there's
a case in San Diego that a woman car was uh broken down on off the side of the road she determined was she she
ran out of uh gasoline um no one knows where she is for a day or two then they find her up in outside of
San Diego in some Foothills and she has a dog collar around her neck she's been sexually assaulted and she's been
garotted I worked with the police I'm telling the internal affairsist I work with the police we came out with a
series of articles I said because it was my opinion that that whoever killed her was the guy who
picked her up to take her maybe to a gas station gas station so she thought and so we we want to put a series of
communications out looking for lead value did anyone see anything did anyone say anything any Vehicles stop any
description of a vehicle or a car we put that out we fled the Airways and and we
waited a couple days and now we come out with another another we're getting very
good uh leads thanking the public we are now getting a description of not only the vehicle but the individual who uh
who stopped alongside of the victim's car the purpose of that was to get the subject to inject himself into the
investigation to uh to to come up with a legitimate reason why he may have been spotted there and sure enough the guy
injects himself into the investigation that that just so you know that I was there I offered her a ride she said she
ran out of gas but she she said no so I went on my on my Merry way so I told Internal Affairs that was that
was the guy we arrested him the police arrested him now if you're telling me you're telling me that my lying to the
press or whatever well it's not exactly the truth it's not the truth but we caught this or maybe the
police caught it by using this technique so what what and so they look at me and
they uh they said well let's I'll just tell you something I said but we understand what you're saying but
if if it ever gets out or anything or you you screw up man we're gonna have your head we're gonna we're gonna have
your head and I'll be working cattle wrestling cases in Butte Montana or someplace if not fired from The Bureau
so I started really working on on proactive kinds of things and interview any of you uh
techniques and suggestions because because sometimes you may do a profile and it doesn't fit every characteristic
so someone will say well this that profile they they said he would have a uh a a a college education and and this
guy only he's a high school high school education or we may miss the age which is difficult age is difficult because
this chronological age and behavioral age and uh and you may miss may miss that we
miss the Arthur shawcross case up in Rochester New York we missed it by about 15 years and the reason we missed it was
because he was incarcerated for those 15 years for a double homicide where he killed two children and then he gets out
of prison that's unbelievable he let him out of prison he had to serve him 15 years he goes up to Rochester and he
starts killing prostitutes up in Rochester so we got everything right uh missed the age but car but uh we staked
out we told them to stake out if you find a body don't recover it right away but stake it out and so they so the cops
they they get a lead there's a body below a bridge an overpass below a bridge in the country and and uh there's
a victim down there and it's frozen over with ice and they stake it out and guess
what police are surveillance here comes a guy just fits on the edge of the bridge eating having a drink and the
victim is right below him and that was Arthur shawcross serial killer in Rochester New York so so it's it's it's
it's it's I like the idea of developing you know uh usually imagination and creativity to to catch these guys and
and kind of de-emphasize like I said de-emphasize the uh the profile sometimes you could be right on the
money some cases forget you can't you can't do it because too many there may be too many types of people could
perpetrate this kind of uh type of crime and rape cases we have surviving victims
we could be pretty good uh once if we do the right kind of interview or we coach
the we coach the police to determine what was the verbal assault was what the sexual assault was what the physical
assault was verbal sexual physical and what was it like throughout the first counter with the victim during this
sexual assault and afterwards verbal sexual physical and if we have that information we do a good interview we
that kind of case we can do a very good profile and come up with because we have
a rape type we have like about five or six rape typologies based upon if we have that kind of information where we
can determine pretty good who the offender is in a similar fashion in regards to the Zodiac attack at Lake
Berryessa this is the murder of Cecilia Shepard in the attempted murder of Brian
Hartnell during the course of tying up the victims the Zodiac Killer wearing a black executioners type Hood with
clip-on sunglasses over the eye holes disguise he claimed to be an escaped convict from
the Montana State Prison in Deer Lodge Montana where he had killed a guard and stole a car to make a getaway now he's
telling the young couple he just needed their vehicle and money to drive and escape to Mexico
you had said you would have used that information to try to draw the killer out to present himself to law
enforcement and come forward what would have been your strategy to do so yeah it would have just been to you know
to release I just believe in in working with the media investigative reporters with the media releasing information and
not sitting on you can sit on information for a period of a couple of you know maybe a couple of days or so
but at some point you have to re you know release the uh you know release the information now whether or not that
information was true or not we we you know we wouldn't uh you know we wouldn't have you know have uh known that uh
yeah again I'd have to it's been so long since I even looked at that you know that case but uh let me tell you
something else so it's similar uh the what he did what his technique was it was he's trying to defuse the situation
he was trying to calm calm the victims down don't worry all I want is your vehicle same thing I interviewed Dennis
raid of the BTK Strangler in a case that I did in the 70s and 80s and and never it never analysis never led to his
arrest his his stupidity led to his arrest but he used that same uh technique with the Otero family when he
killed the oteroes and and the uh the children the mother and father that plea please all I want you know I just want
your car you know and and your money I'm not going to do anything to you and and
and so that they allowed it was a very good modus operandi it allowed him to defuse the situation and uh uh and gain
control of them and and uh you know and tie them up uh going back to the Zodiac it's kind of it
kind of shows you though it's pretty sophisticated it's a pretty good ammo uh you know to use and almost
sounds like uh it's been so long it almost sounds like a law enforcement technique Dennis Rader was a pseudo law
enforcement you know he was a compliance officer in town he was studying Criminal
Justice at Wichita State uh so a lot of these serial killer types do have law enforcement
backgrounds looking at the Golden Gate killer you know out there and uh but even others who or you ask them what uh
what would be your favorite uh profession to be generally it's law enforcement is what they pick and some
of them are active or even work as security guards so but I I sometimes it's disturbing to uh
to see how I can't think of the name you probably uh notice Nick the the case in
Indiana are the two little girls that were on that bridge yes the murders of Abigail Williams in Liberty German from
Delphi Indiana I did a brief interview on I think there's a Good Morning America I think I
had that other book out to kill across and they threw out that case and and they never I mean you can sit on that
information but when they said I had the the audio tapes the the audio tapes and
uh you know it was like I think before we call someone like come with me follow me or something like come with me yes
the perpetrator said guys down the hill yeah sorry man yes and they sat on that kind of wasn't
it like two years or so it was it was ridiculous you don't you don't sit on on something like uh you know like that uh
you know for that period of time that case to me that was a solvable kind of case that is not a it's not a case where
some Stranger Comes roaming into a community and just by the fluke you know and this I think it was like a winter
day you face comes across this railroad Trestle and he confronts these girls it's like right he has there's this
knowledge of knowledge of the area that's his comfort zone that area there whatever that area is like I don't I
just don't no I know it's just rural I don't know we don't know how they were killed if you knew how they were killed
even uh like I said you can sit on it for a while but or but I think it would have been very soluble if I would have
known like with a sexually assaulted yes or no well they both sexually assaulted with are they were they
redressed were they on closely did he pose the bodies uh did he try to secrete the Box hide the bodies from uh from
from open view are they missing anything any jewelry any clothing or anything like that uh method of death uh who can
we can we determine who was killed first uh yeah it's a solvable it's really a solvable case but not not a year later
two years you know two years later I mean unless they they luck out and get DNA but it's uh yeah
I I just upsets me sometimes when I I see why didn't they release this information I mean I did say it with the
bureau too with our own their own cases I mean you gotta sit on them for a while
but bits and pieces of information you can certainly let out to the public [Music]
[Applause] [Music] [Applause] thank you [Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you Mr Douglas you referenced BTK Dennis
Rader and I was talking about the Zodiac attack at Lake Berryessa do you think that there's a high probability a good
chance that Dennis Rader learned that technique by reading about the Zodiac Killer yes yeah because I like I said he
was thinking he was in criminal justice in fact the initial analysis we did and was we did 179 and we were just getting
going really but then we did a really good one in 84 with a group of us and uh we wanted to focus we told the focus
that over if you have a criminal justice University nearby I'm sure enough it was
Wichita in retrospect he went to which is Wichita uh you know you know and uh very I mean
they will they follow uh they'll read books and things like that people will always ask Nick too a question like well
can they learn from from your books I mean it becomes like a manual and uh not not really because what because
you should be able to read you can see when things are done that the patterns just don't don't always fit there that
they the killer may do something to the victim that gives himself away it may be
the way the body is disposed of uh their parent killing their child and uh you know and maybe read a book you know you
know to okay what make sure you don't uh uh you know let somebody else find the victim don't be the one to find the
victims it's some case like that but in a case like that when we say when we found the victim we see that things were
done to the victim but the victim was buried I'm thinking of a cases I'm telling you this is buried in the back
of a house and the uh there's a plastic bag over the face and uh part of the body uh to protect it from really from
the from the elements protected from the insects and uh dirt it's something that
uh you know that someone close to the victim would have done so we're not looking for a stranger a stranger murder
so so you should be able to you should be able to pick up if someone uh because is following a uh a case we
had we had a case of a a of a this is years ago it was Roy Hazelwood who since passed away he was real good he did a
lot of an area of rape and a woman uh got would get these up saying seen calls and she got a whistle and she blew the
whistle into the phone and uh she would be murdered and a whistle would be found
you know be thrown on her body also a magazine a magazine that this guy just so happened to have the killer had of a
woman using that technique on an obscene telephone call and these are these are these old True Detective magazines we
had used to have years years ago so so uh he got back you know he got he got back
to her uh in an indirect uh oh and not indirect a very direct way from a magazine uh and retaliated but we ended
up you know getting getting him as you know as well that guy you referenced that a criminal could
read and could study crimes and possibly read your books to help them get away with murder and avoid being
apprehended one thing that I found fascinating when reviewing some old video footage was a gentleman that you
met and spoke with Mark Byers who at one time was considered a suspect at least in the minds of the public In The West
Memphis Three case and I noticed in that video footage when he was being interviewed at his apartment that there
were several of your books on his shelves or his desk can you tell us why you believe that Mark Byers is not a
good suspect in the West Memphis Three case he had a book that I gave him a book after I I determined he was not a
suspect you know in the uh you know in the case uh Mark Byers yeah he recently he recently died
when he made uh that series of uh shows what was the name of the the first one the first one the HBO documentary
Paradise Lost the Child Murders At Robin Hood Hills he was plied with alcohol and
and prescription drugs he was he was scripted uh you know through you know throughout that uh the the the person
who uh killed those children and uh uh the method of matter of of disposal told me it was not it was not Mark Byers
he did not have a history really any kind of a major kind of history of assault or path of behavior it was the
other stepfather who was never interviewed by the police throughout the years the that
50 analysis that I did uh for the team that was working the case that the children uh it it showed me and my goal
was was the could it was it a teenage these three teenagers involved no the way that children weren't disposed of
they were the children didn't have their clothes on which would be a way of controlling the kids if they if they're
stripped down or they could have been playing out there and they could have been naked to begin with when someone
approached them but the way they were disposed of and the person uh stuck a stick in the clothing and and and poked
it down under the water that is pretty fairly criminally uh you know sophisticated uh the the children died
of combination of drowning and blunt force uh trauma uh there were people early on in the investigation said they
were teeth marks they were human teeth marks on the body I turned out it was animal predation uh you know you can you
probably know that uh you know now but getting back to buyers I spent hours and hours I mean I spent uh uh with with all
the victims and my goal after I determine who was who was not responsible that this is a
non-solved case they they meaning the investigative team Peter Jackson the director who was funding this these
experts here was to talk to the parents and I got to talk to all the parents except the more victim yeah they had
since divorced and uh I got the mother on the phone and and uh I just could not uh even even have opportunity to speak
with her I did get to speak to the other victims uh the other victims families and at first they wanted to throw me
out of their homes but once I sat and explained to them how different things what happened to their children that
that this was not a youthful type of a crime at all and it was then again the person who they came up with as a
suspect who's who was the uh the other father The Stepfather who was never interviewed do you remember the name
Nick Terry Hobbs yeah Terry Hobbs uh I got to interview I did interview him he did certainly
have the history history of of uh of violence uh they found a hair which was interesting but
it was uh human hair on a one of the uh in a ligature of the shoelaces uh that was
used to tie one of the victims of hair uh those mitochondrial DNA was found on the hair and also on a branch hair that
was mitochondrial linked to you know linked back to him but the case the case isn't going anywhere because
the if they're not if they're not working the investigation uh at all they had me speak to the district attorney uh
down there and and uh after uh we came out with uh uh you know our show Peter Jackson produced
and um it was called the west of Memphis uh and uh the the father uh uh I'm trying to
think about what the I'm trying to think of the uh that's the name of the show that we we
did it did but anyway let me talk to them yeah I can't yeah but it doesn't matter I suppose I did speak to to the
district attorney and district attorney um he saw the show he's kind of nift uh about our our take on it and he says and
he said I don't he told me I don't know I I don't know if if they uh did it or not and I said I do know they didn't do
it they didn't do it I explained to him the crime scene and and uh the type of person that would have perpetrate this
these crimes it's not a useful type of an offender and he tells me though he says well the timing isn't very good the
timing and I didn't know what he known I thought maybe timing because he just released them from prison but it turned
out like 30 days later I find out the timing isn't any good because he's running for political office down there
and that's why the timing wasn't any good but no one is to this day I mean they didn't bring in like the Arkansas
Arkansas State Police and they're a very good police agency the bureau really never
got involved you know in the investigation uh you know either they were hell-bent on making this a a
satanic type of murder that was a big thing in that period of time you had people
like Geraldo Rivera on television saying that there's 50 000 children are being abducted yearly and it's shown a satanic
connection even Oprah Winfrey had a special on her show cops were being trained look for certain graffiti
indicating Satanism and and uh yeah and so they were hell-bent on making down a satanic crime and you have Damien Echols
and wearing black and and uh they had blinders on and so they they made a case using uh initially Jesse Miss Kelly the
so-called so-called confession uh that he you know that he gave but it's a shame it was a shame uh of the wrongful
conviction how lives yeah were pretty much pretty much destroyed and uh and so in one book I did I did a book
law and disorder that includes that case includes the uh jonbeni Ramsey case included Amanda Knox case all cases I
was involved with uh I did that a couple of two years three years ago maybe [Music]
thank you guys so much for joining us here in the garage to join us again tomorrow if you're not following us on
Instagram Twitter or Facebook or you can follow the kernel the crispiest of kernels on the app called untapped so
you can see what drinks the kernel has been drinking that's right join us back here in the garage tomorrow until then
be good be kind and don't litter [Music] thank you foreign

Mind Hunter: John Douglas /// Part 1 /// 445

Part 1 of 2 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

This week we are joined once again by Legendary F.B.I. Profiler John Douglas, the Mindhunter. Nic ask questions regarding some of the cases that haunt us. Listen in as we discuss The Zodiac, The West Memphis 3 and JonBenet Ramsey.

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Brief Summary

John E. Douglas discusses criminal profiling, Mindhunter, and insights on serial killers and the Zodiac case.

Key points

Mindhunter Season Three Update. Douglas shares insights on the potential return of Mindhunter and its challenges.
The Psychology of Violent Offenders. Douglas discusses the backgrounds of violent criminals and their psychological profiles.
The BTK Strangler's Technique. The interview reveals how Dennis Rader used manipulation to control his victims.
The Delphi Murders Case. Discussion on the unsolved case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German raises questions about information release.
Mark Byers and the West Memphis Three. Insights into Mark Byers' involvement in the West Memphis Three case and the investigation's flaws.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

When life gives you lemons, you make lemon shandy.

The captain's humorous take on making the best of situations.

1:11WatchNov 11, 2022

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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