Mind Hunter: John Douglas /// Part 1 /// 445 | Forensic Files

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talk some true [Music] [Applause] [Music] crime John Douglas started his career with the
FBI in 1970 in the field he served as a hostage negotiator he transferred to the
FBI's Behavioral Science unit or BSU for short in 1977 where he taught hostage negotiation and applied criminal
psychology at the FBI Academy in Quantico Douglas later went on to create and manage the FBI's criminal profiling
program while traveling around the country providing instruction to law enforcement agencies Douglas began
interviewing serial killers and other violent sex offenders at various prisons he interviewed some of the most notable
violent criminals as part of the study including David burwitz Ted Bundy John Wayne gasy Charles Manson and Edmund
keer he used the information gathered from these interviews he examined crime scenes and created profiles of the
perpetrators describing their habits and attempting to predict their next move in
cases where his work helped to capture the criminals he built strategies for interrogating and Prosecuting them as
well Douglas first made a public name for himself with the involvement in the Atlanta child murders Douglas first made
a public name for himself with his involvement in the Atlanta child murders case back in 1977 to 1981 he is the
author of two of the garage's favorite true crime books mind Hunter and the cases that haunt us and he's joining us
here in the the garage today via telephone and Mr Douglas it is an honor to have you joining us once again well
thank you first off Mr Douglas everybody wants to know will there be season 3 of
M Hunter you certainly have the inside track what can you tell us will it happen and when I tell you the uh now
it's like two months ago I got a call from Hol malleny who plays Bill tench character he stayed with me uh uh when
he was developing his part part in the show and but he he sounded kind of grim and and was that uh all the actors want
to return but it was a question with uh David Fincher the director he spent so much time so much time filming in
Pittsburgh he for each each season he spent about seven months there and he's such a perfectionist that the actors are
working almost the entire year on the you know on each uh on each series what there were saying that he that he's uh
you know exhausted I just don't personally understand it neither the some of the actors uh why don't you get
Ed some other directors uh some there there were other directors involved in in season 1 and season two of the 19
total epodes in two seasons Fincher did did seven of them personally did seven but when he did the series House of
Cards he started it but then other other directors took over over for the uh for
the show so I don't I mean it just everyone's you know is hoping you got tremendous ratings the
reviews were were all you know all good but I I mean it doesn't uh for now it's not he takes you if you can recall
season 2 the first episode I just give you an idea there was a barbecue scene with Bill tench and he's meeting his
neighbors who are finding out for the first time kind of what he does with the profiling and at quanico and all that he
started asking questions that one scene uh was repeated seven nearly 75 times 75
times before uh Fincher approved it how he wanted that scene uh to go I uh and it's and because I me that he's made
he's made the Netflix a lot of money you know it was if it was anyone else they say they would say okay it's fine we'll
get another director but no they they're not doing it but I I just in the back of my mind I just think they will
some point you know I may I may be dead and buried but some point I hope they'll
bring it back there's so much more to tell I mean even season two the Atlanta child killings uh I mean that and and
and you're you know you're uh the people listening to your show have to realize that's based on the book but it's not
the book uh the like the Atlanta case did not go down like that in fact in reality I saw it went down and the real
way went down a lot more dramatic and my role in that case as far as coaching the
the prosecution uh on how to to interrogate him when he would take the stand uh my attitude with toward the the
uh the the prosecutors and experts that the FBI and the state brought in there and how how uh they they were going to
throw my ass out of there they did because I was just so critical of them uh on how they testified they were so
technical no one could even understand what they were were saying I mean I couldn't understand what they were
saying uh and the defense experts that they brought in talk they may have been saying stuff that's not correct uh their
analysis but it was it was clear it was something that the jurors could follow and they were nodding their heads like
in agreement with with the with their experts so um there's so much you so they they didn't finish that case I
always think of season 3 they got that case I mean they got they have I think there so many different cases the Ted
bunde case they could do Robert Hansen up in Alaska who hunted women down like wild animals which set them loose in the
wilderness and uh and you have that case the you have Buffalo 22 Caliber Killer I
mean just there the Tylenol case then cases of small no one really the public doesn't even know about but just very
very interesting inter in interesting uh you know cases and they it may not follow the book they're kind of
interpreting it the way they want to but but it's uh it's it's better than some of the other shows that uh uh that that
I've seen even like with Criminal Minds it was very successful show but but Behavioral Science unit we don't when
you you're in that unit you don't go you're not out making arrests you're not taking cases away from police you're not
kicking down doors you know it's cerebral When You Reach when you reach the uh the unit and you're a coach
you're you're coaching uh uh FBI you're coaching local law enforcement on on uh on on how to to investigate or or you
know or lead them you know in the best direction for say an un Unknown Subject uh case so
uh what they portrayed in mind Hunter series was good yeah hopefully it's a five it was a fiveyear Arc to the show
it's supposed to be on for 5 years uh and uh then there's plenty of cases to fill up those 5 years so we will see
yes when asked to give a brief description about M Hunter when I recommend the show to friends and family
I always say it's the more adult more intelligent real life version of Criminal Minds yeah I mean it's just uh
it's such interesting in that kind that kind of show today and these crime uh conferences around the country that it's
just it's a amazing when I haven't done any public speaking because of the co virus but when I been going out
conferences 80 90% of the audience are women uh too that are really really into the this well they
want to know because they too they're the victims of the of the kind of violent crimes that I and my colleagues
have worked over the years and they're interested in better understand the personality what creates these people
what makes these people you know uh different than we are what what what was their backgrounds was it predictable
that they would commit uh you know these types of uh types of crimes and uh and now with all these dating services you
know meeting people you know at locations you don't know you know just because someone puts a nice picture up
and gives you this background bio this little bio doesn't mean that's who the person really is uh my mother when when
my since passed away she used to tell my sister when you meet you meet a man or boy this was years ago when you me a boy
ask him what his relationship is with his mother and my mother was was right on the money there because of the people
who I've interviewed some of the most violent offenders there was always an issue on the mother's side where they
were there was this abuse or neglect of some of some type uh uh going on with them uh and uh it's they love their
mother and same time they hated their mother when I interviewed Gary heynck from Philadelphia who kept women in the
pit like in the movie s of the Lambs I interviewed him lesie stall of 60 minutes just got to 60 minutes that's
how long ago it was in 1991 and followed me into Pittsburgh to interview or I interview Gary heidnik and when I got
around to talking about his mother he just went absolutely nuts you know and and crying and and uh you know and he he
he loved her and hated her all at the same time and she was very very abusive you know toward him and this is not to
say that everyone is good is abused turn out to be a violent you know anything but I'm just saying of the people who
I've interviewed uh rarely I I I can't think of one that you could say came from some loving nurturing kind of
background they all had some type of uh dysfunction you know in their lives let's talk about the still unsolved
terrorizing murders and threats from the unidentified serial killer who called himself the Zodiac you reviewed and
profiled the Zodiac case years after the fact and still were able to offer up some very fascinating and intriguing
analysis about the crimes and the person who committed them yeah the uh with well
with the Zodiac we never the unit really never got involved with the uh the analysis of that case we've had a lot of
people come forward over the years there's been different suspects you know uh you know developed um when that case
was going on we really didn't even have a behavioral science unit when we we finally got the case
uh it was it was when so-called zodiac was writing a communication wrote a communication to the detective who was
assigned to the case he had a private office a private line hotline and uh so we got we were going to do an analysis
of the communication we call psycholinguistic analysis all it is is just you're doing a profile of the
author of the communication um the the uh police immediately called us up and said
stopped forget about it you know why why we figured out who wrote the uh communication who was it the detective
why the detective wrote the communication himself to he's trying to because he had not had any good leads no
leads everything just died it was nothing going on and to perpetuate the case he wrote this so-called letter from
the uh you know the the uh the Zodiac so uh but as far as I mean it's it's a case
if it was a case today I think we'd be successful uh when you get a case like that uh and and how I was evolving in
when I was the unit Chief in the bureau and training others it's I was kind of deemphasizing the profile because
because the whole the idea of a profile is you're trying to generate leads you're trying to try to uh Peak the mind
of interest of people who may know uh some of the uh the Char characteristics of that are fitting this charact uh uh
the person responsible for the crime so I began to focus in more on on proactive
techniques and uh to to to maybe get the subject uh to inject himself in the investigation or get the subject to to
go to a particular location uh because we we may have uh planted something there we may have had a memorial service
there uh and uh just give you an example I was s i i was sent to go before the uh uh Internal
Affairs they call opr offic of professional responsibility and and which is not good when you go before
Internal Affairs and and so I went I went before a whole group and they said John you're not lying are you to uh to
the media through the media to the public you're not lying are you I said I so what do you mean you you telling the
truth I said well I don't know I said let me give you an example I said this there's a case in and I told him there's
a case in San Diego that uh a woman car was uh broken down on off the side of the road she deter she she ran
out of uh gasoline um no one knows where she is for a day or two then they find her up
in outside of San Diego in some Foothills and she has a a dog collar around her neck she's been sexually
assaulted and she's been GED uh I worked with the police I'm telling the internal
Affair is this I worked with the police we came out with a series of articles I said because it was my opinion that that
whoever killed her was the guy who picked her up to take her maybe to a gas station gas station so she thought and
so we we want to put a series of communications out looking for lead value did anyone see anything did anyone
see anything on any vehicle stop any description of a vehicle or a car we put that out we flood the Airways and and we
waited a couple days and now we come out with another another we we're getting very good uh leads thanking the public
we are now getting a description of not only the vehicle but the individual who uh who stopped alongside of the victim's
car um the purpose of that was to get the subject to inject himself into the investigation to uh to to come up with a
legitimate reason why he may have been outed there and sure enough the guy injects himself into the investigation
that that just so you know that I was there I I offered her a ride she said she ran out of gas but she she said no
so I went on my on my Merry way so I told Internal Affairs that was that was the guy we arrested him the police
arrested him now if you're telling me you're telling me the My Lying to the press or whatever well it's not exactly
the truth it's not the truth but we caught this so they the police caught it by using this technique so what what and
so they look at me and they uh they said well let's I I'll just tell you something I said we understand what
you're saying but if if it ever gets out or anything or you you screw up man we're going to have your head we're
going to we're going to have your head you I'll be working cattle rustling cases in but Montana or some place if if
not fired from The Bureau so I started really working on on proactive kinds of things and interview interview uh
techniques and and suggestions because because sometimes you may do a profile and it doesn't fit every characteristic
so someone will say well this that profile they they they said he would have a uh a a college education or and
and this guy only he's a high school high school education or well we may miss the age which is difficult age is
difficult because uh there chronological age and behavioral age and uh and you may miss may miss that we missed the
Arthur shawcross case up in Rochester New York we missed it by about 15 years and the reason we missed it was because
he was incarcerated for those 15 years for a double homicide where he killed two children and then he gets out of
prison it's unbelievable he let him out of prison have to serve him 15 years he goes up to Rochester and he starts
killing prostitutes up in Rochester we got everything right uh missed the age but C but uh we staked out we told them
to stake out if you find a body don't recover it right away but stake it out and so they so the cops they they get a
lead there's a body below a bridge an overpass below a bridge in the country and and uh the there's a victim down
there and it's frozen over with ice and uh they stake it out and guess what police or surveillant here comes a guy
just sits on on the edge of the the bridge eating having a drink and the victim is right uh below him and that
was Arthur shawcross serial killer in Rochester New York so so it's it's it's I like the idea of developing you know
uh using imagination creativity to to catch these guys and and kind of deemphasize like I said deemphasize the
uh the profile sometimes you could be right on the money some cases you forget you can't you can't do it because too
many there may be too many types of people could perpetrate this kind of uh type of crime uh and uh rape cases we
have surviving victims we could be pretty good uh once if we do the right kind of interview or or we coach the we
coach the police to determine what was the verbal assault was what the sexual assault was and what the physical
assault was verbal sexual physical and what was it like throughout the first counter with the victim during this
sexual assault and afterwards verbal sexual physical and if we have that information we do a good interview we
that kind of case we can do a very good profile and come up with because we have
a rape typ we have like there about five or six rape typologies based upon if we
have that kind of information where we can determine pretty good who the offender is in a similar fashion in
regards to the Zodiac attack at Lake beresa this is the murder of Cecilia Shepard and the attempted murder of
Brian Hartnell during the course of tying up the victims the Zodiac Killer wearing a black executioners type Hood
with clip-on sunglasses over the eyeholes disguise he claimed to be an escaped convict from the Montana State Prison in
Deer Lodge Montana where he had killed a guard and stole a car to make a getaway
now he's telling the young couple he just needed their vehicle and money to drive and escape to Mexico you had said
you would have used that information to try to draw the killer out to present himself to law enforcement and come
forward what would have been your strategy to do so yeah it would have have just been to you know to release I
I just believe in and working with the media investigative reporters with the media releasing information and not
sitting on you can sit on information for a period of a couple of you know maybe couple of days or so but at some
point you have to re you know release the uh you know release the information now whether or not that information was
true or not we we you know we wouldn't uh you know we wouldn't have you know have uh known that
uh again it would I'd have to it's been so long since I looked at that you that case but let me sh tell you something
else was similar uh the what he did what his technique was he was trying to diffuse the situation he was trying to
calm calm the victims down don't worry all I want is your vehicle same thing I interviewed Dennis Raider the BTK
Strangler in a case that I did in the 70s and 80s and and never it never analysis never led to his arrest his
stupidity led to his arrest but he used that same technique with the Otero family when he
killed the otos and and the uh the children the mother and father that please all I want you know I just want
your car you know and and your money I'm not going to do anything to you and and
and so that they allowed it was a very good modus operandi it allowed him to diffuse the
situation and uh uh and gain control of them and and uh you know and tie them up
uh it's going back to the Zodiac it's kind of It kind of shows you though that's pretty sophisticated it's a
pretty good Mo uh you know to use and it almost sounds like uh it's been so long it
almost sounds like a law enforcement technique Dennis Raider uh was the pseudo law enforcement you know he was a
compliance officer in town he was studying Criminal Justice at Witchita State uh so uh a lot of these serial
killer types do have law enforce backgrounds look at the Golden Gate killer you know out there and but even
others who or you ask them what uh what would be your favorite uh profession be generally law enforcement is what they
pick and some of them act even work as security guards so but I sometimes it's disturbing to uh to see how I can't
think of the name you probably uh know this Nick the the case in Indiana are the two little girls that were on that
bridge yes the murders of Abigail Williams in Liberty German from Deli Indiana I did brief interview on I think
it was a good morning America and they I had that other book out killerr and they
threw out that case and and they never I mean you can sit on that information but
when they sit on had the the audio tapes the audio tapes and uh you know was like
I think if I recall like come with me follow me or something like come with me yes the perpetrator said guys down the
hill yeah and it s authoritarian man I mean you know and they sat on that God wasn't it like two years or so it was it
was ridiculous you don't you don't sit on on something like uh you know like that uh you know for that period of time
that case to me that was a solvable kind of case that is not a it's not a case where some Stranger Comes roaming into a
a community and just by the fluke you know and this I think it was like a winter day he he's comes across this
railroad Trestle and he confronts these girl it's like he has there's this knowledge a knowledge of the area that's
his comfort zone that area there whatever that area is like I don't I just don't know I know was just rural I
don't know we don't know how they were killed if you knew how they were killed even uh like I said you can sit on a for
a while but or but I think it would have been very Sol if I would have known like
were they sexually assaulted yes or no were they both sexually assaulted were they were they redressed were they
unclosed were they depose the bodies uh did he try to secrete the bodies hide the bodies from uh from from open view
are they missing anything any jewelry any clothing or anything like that uh method of death uh who can we can we
determine who was killed first first uh it's a solvable it's really a solvable case but not not a year later two years
you know two years later I mean unless they they look out and get DNA but it's uh yeah I just upsets me sometimes when
I I see why didn't they release this information I mean I did the same thing with the bureau too um with our own our
own cases I you got sit on them for a while but bits and pieces of information you can certainly let out to the
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brand [Applause] [Music] Mr Douglas you referenced BTK Dennis Raider and I was talking about the
Zodiac attack at Lake beresa do you think that there's a high probability a good chance that Dennis Raider learned
that technique by reading about the Zodiac Killer yes yeah because and like I said he was in he uh was in criminal
justice in fact he initial analysis we did and was we did 1 in 79 and we were just getting going really but then we
did a really good one in 84 with a group of us and uh we we wanted to focus we told the focus that over if you have a
criminal justice University nearby and sure enough it was witchar in R respect he went to witch witchar um you know you
know and very I mean they will they follow they'll read books and things like that people will always ask Nick
too a question like well can they learn from from your books I mean it becomes like a manual and and uh not not really
because what because you should be able to read you can see when things are done that the
patterns just don't don't always fit there that the the killer may do something to the victim that gives
himself away it may be the way the body is disposed of uh say a parent killing their child and uh you know and maybe
read a book you know you know to okay what make sure you don't uh uh you know let somebody else find the victim don't
be the one to find the victim some read some case like that uh but in a case like that when we find say when we found
the victim we see that things were done to the victim that uh the victim was buried I'm thinking of a case as I'm
telling you this is buried in the back of a house and the uh the there's plastic bag over the face and uh part of
the body uh to protect it from really from uh the from the elements protected from insects and uh dirt uh it's
something that uh you know that someone close to the victim would have done so you we're not looking for a stranger a
stranger murder so so you should be able to you should be able to pick up if someone uh is following a uh a case we
had we had a case of a of a this was years ago was Roy Hazelwood who sents passed away it was real good he did a
lot in the area of rape and the woman uh got would get these OBS scene calls and
she got a whistle and she blew the whistle into the phone and uh she would be murdered and a whistle would be found
you know be thrown on her body also a magazine a magazine that this guy just so happened to have the killer had of a
women using that technique on an obscene telephone call and these these were these old True Detective magazines we
had used to have years years ago so so uh he got back you know he got he got back to her uh in an indirect uh in not
indirect a very direct way from a a magazine uh and retaliated but we ended up you know getting getting him as you
know as well that guy you referenced that a criminal could read and could study crimes and possibly read your
books to help them get away with murder and avoid being apprehended one thing that I found fascinating when reviewing
some old video footage was a gentleman that you met and spoke with Mark buers who at one time was considered a suspect
at least in the minds of the public in the West Memphis 3 case and I noticed in that video footage when he was being
interviewed at his apartment that there were several of your books on his shelves or his desk can you tell us why
you believe that Mark buers is not a good suspect in the west Memphis 3 case he had a book that I gave him a book
after I I determined he was not a suspect you know in the uh you know in the case uh Mark buers yeah he recently
he recently died when when he met made uh that series of uh shows what was the name of the the the first one the first
one uh the HBO documentary Paradise Lost the Child Murders At Robin Hood Hills he
was ped with alcohol and and uh prescription drugs he was he was scripted uh you know through you know
throughout that uh the the person who uh killed those children and uh uh the the
method of manner of of disposal told me it was not uh it was not Mark buers uh uh he did not have a
history really any kind of a major kind of history of assault of type of Behavior Uh it was the other stepfather
who was never interviewed by the police throughout the years um the that 50 analysis that I did uh for the team that
was working uh to the CH the the children uh it it it showed me and my goal was was was the
could they was it a teenage these three teenagers involved no the way the children w't disposed of they were uh
the children didn't have their clothes on which would be a way of controlling the kids if they if they're stripped
down or they could have been playing out there and they could have been naked to
begin with when someone approached them but the way they were disposed of and the person uh stuck a stick in the
clothes CL and and and poked it down under the water uh that is pretty fairly criminally uh you know sophisticated uh
the the children died of combination of drowning and blun force uh trauma uh there were people early on the
investigation said there were teeth marks there were human teeth marks on the body it turned out it was animal
predation uh you know you you probably know that uh you know now but getting back to buyer I spent hours and hour I
me I spent uh uh with with all the victims and my goal after I determine who was
who was not responsible that this is an unsolved case they they meaning the investigative team Peter Jackson the
director who was funding this and these experts here was to talk to the parents and I got to talk to all the parents
except the more victim uh they had sensed the divorced and uh uh I got the mother on the phone and and uh just
could not uh even even have opportunity to speak with her I did get to speak to the other victims uh the other victims
families and first they wanted to throw me out of their homes but once I sat and
explained to them how different things how what happened to their children uh that that this was not a youthful type
of a crime at all uh and it was then next again the the person who they came up with as a suspect who's who was the
uh the other father The Stepfather who was never interviewed you remember the name Nick Terry Hobbs yeah Terry Hobbs
uh I got to interview I did interview uh him he did certainly have the history history of of uh of of violence uh they
found a hair which is interesting but it was uh uh human hair on a one of the uh
in a ligature of the shoelaces uh that was used to tie one of the victims hair uh it was mitochondrial DNA was found on
hair and also on a branch hair that was mitochondrial linked to you know linked back uh to him but the case the case
isn't going anywhere because the if they're not if they're not working the investigation uh at all they had me
speak to the district attorney uh down there and and U after uh we came out with uh you know our show Peter Jackson
produced and um it was called west of Memphis uh and uh the the father uh uh I'm trying to think let the I'm
trying to think of the uh that's the name of the show that we we did did but anyway had me talk to
yeah I can't but doesn't matter but I spoke I did speak to to the district attorney and the district attorney um he
saw the show he's kind of mythed uh about our our take on it and he says and he said I don't he told me I don't know
I I don't know if they uh did it or not and I said I do know they didn't do it they didn't do it I explained to him the
crime scene and and uh the type of person that would have perpetrated this these crimes is not youthful type of an
offender and he tells me though he says well the timing isn't very good the timing and I didn't know what he meant I
thought maybe timing because he just released them from prison but it turned out 30 days later I find out the timing
isn't any good because he's running for political office down there and that's why the timing wasn't any good but
knowing to this day I mean they didn't bring in like the arkans Arkansas State Police in they're very good police
agency uh the bureau really never got involved you know in the investigation uh you know either uh they were held
bent on making this a a satanic type of murder that was a big thing in that period of time you had people like
haraldo Rivera on television saying that there's 50,000 children are being abducted yearly and it's shown a satanic
connection even Oprah Winfrey had a special on her show cops were being trained look for certain graffiti
indicating Satanism and and uh yeah and uh so they were hellbent on making out a
satanic crime and you have Daman Eckles and wearing black and and uh they had blinders on and so they they made a case
using uh initially Jesse Miss Kelly was So-Cal so-called confession uh that he you know that he gave but it's a shame
it was a shame uh of the wrongful conviction how the lives you were pretty much pretty much destroyed and uh and so
one book I did I did a book uh law and disorder that includes that case includes the uh John Benny Ramsey case
include the Amanda Knox case all cases I was involved with uh I did that couple of two years three years ago
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Mind Hunter: John Douglas /// Part 1 /// 445

Part 1 of 2

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This week we are joined once again by Legendary F.B.I. Profiler John Douglas, the Mindhunter. Nic ask questions regarding some of the cases that haunt us. Listen in as we discuss The Zodiac, The West Memphis 3 and JonBenet Ramsey.

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Brief Summary

John Douglas discusses criminal profiling, the Zodiac Killer, and the potential return of Mindhunter.

Key points

John Douglas on Mindhunter Season 3. John Douglas discusses the potential for a third season of Mindhunter and the challenges involved.
The Complexity of Criminal Profiles. Douglas explains the intricacies of criminal profiling and the challenges faced in investigations.
The Zodiac Killer's Modus Operandi. The Zodiac Killer used a sophisticated technique to diffuse situations with his victims.
The West Memphis 3 Case. Discussion on the wrongful conviction and the investigation's failures in the West Memphis 3 case.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

When life gives you lemons, you make lemon shandy!

The captain's humorous take on making the best of situations.

2:15WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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