When a Killer Calls /// Part 3 /// 555 | Forensic Files

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[Music] 2023 [Music] this is true crime garage and this is part three of When a Killer
[Music] calls [Music] always very excited to have Mr John Douglas here with us in the garage this
is the third time that you've come and graced us with your presence and we are excited as we always are to chat with
you and today we're talking about your new book When a Killer caused this is a fascinating story from the mid 80s that
took place in South Carolina with a very a very horrific case and tragic case but
one that really not only will appeal to our listeners and appeals to me as kind of a
case study but the the criminal Larry Jean Bell just fascinating and absolutely bizarre his
crimes that he committed and the way that that he not just committed these crimes but
also emotionally tortured his victims and their families right Mr Douglas one thing that I found incredibly
fascinating about the details of your new book it really hones in on a lot of the communications that Larry Jean Bell
felt were necessary to him when committing the crimes that that he did and some Killers communicate with the
media some with law enforcement from your experience why do you think some choose to communicate with the media and
others choose to communicate with law enforcement oh yeah I've had cases uh I interviewed um dentist rator the BTK
Strangler and uh it it was just a they're all looking for power all these crimes are sense of power and control
and someone like uh denst Shater or the Zodiac it's U they want more than just local attention they want to National
National you know attention um in the case of that that I just wrote about when a killer calls I never really had a
case you know like this before uh because this the signature uh the that's an aspect of the case that is not
necessary to perpetrate the case but it's a need that the subject has and and his need was to sadistically torture the
families uh of Sherie F Smith uh there were two victims involved but Sherry face Smith giving him initially
false hope that uh that their daughter was still alive and then uh having the victim write a last will and testament
uh that he would mail to the family and Sheri F Smith is is now saying goodbye to her family it was just an
unbelievable family the religious and the faith you know that they had I mean it was
emotionally draining for me and everyone else involved you know in the uh in the
case uh but this guy this guy then uh after the last will in Testament he sets up these communications initially he's
disguising his voice and we send the uh the tapes of the FBI lab and they say he
has some type of a a monitoring device on the phone uh which began to tell us something about his background his
profile uh his his intelligence so he was changing his voice as a case went on after a period of time he stopped using
that uh that device because he was gaining confidence he just felt that he was uh not you know not catchable no one
would ever identify him but when this case kept evolving and kept going on and and on uh and then I'm working with the
families I'm working with a sister her sister named Dawn to use as a a bait really to get this guy to keep
communicating with us because the more he communicates the more we begin to learn about him but it was very
difficult in the 80s because we had to keep him on the phone for such a long period of time up to 15 15 uh minutes
before we can put a traps and Trace and he was well aware of that so I had work with the with the uh the sister of Sher
F Smith and basically kind of give it like kind of costage negotiating skills and and that is like uh paraphrasing
restate the content that he's trying to whatever he's telling you just keep like
uh confirming that you understand what he's saying but he was too sharp at that time he would he would bail on us but
one of the worst things about this I mean it was it was horrific was that the mother received some of the calls as
well as the sister Dawn and then the mother asked him the mother says that my daughter know she was going to die and
Belle says yes uh you know she did and I gave her a choice and she could pick uh
drug overdose gunshot or Suffocation and your daughter selected Suffocation and so what he did he proceeded to use duct
tape while she was alive and duct taped her her head and then he waits he waits days for the body to uh
decompose uh before he tells us tells the family through now Dawn the other the other sister where we can find find
Sher F Smith and the reason that began that tells you something about him too because he doesn't want to leave
anything forensically for us to determine like the cause of death to locate any kind of hair and fiber
evidence but what we could see is that and we we knew about the duct tape just by the evidence she uh uh her hair after
he duct taped her head he removed the duct tape because he didn't want to leave fingerprints on the duct tape and
he would end up cutting some of the hair on her head to to totally remove the duct tape from us so it was just it was
just an unbelievable case and and uh to to set up um uh he stopped communicating
with us that's that was a problem when I finally went down they stopped communicating with with the police uh
with the uh the family I had to get him to talk I had to get him to get back on the phone so I I sat down with the
investigative reporter and told the investigative reporter uh that I I wanted her to uh come up with a
story where Sher Fay is uh is buried we want to have a memorial service and uh I'm not going to write it for you I
can't do that as an agent but I want you make it poetic and we're going to set up
at the the grave site we're going to put a u kind of a lecturn a white lecturn with Sheri's picture on it and uh when I
was at the house I asked to see Sheri bedroom and Dawn her sister showed me the bedroom and and in the bedroom were
were dozens upon dozens of of koala bears and I started thinking in my brain what can I what can I do here what can I
do and I saw a small koala bear that was hanging from a string and I took that you pinch the shoulders and it opens up
and I'm thinking without telling anyone I'm going to use this at the gravite I'm
going to have Dawn who now he was targeting Dawn uh the other sister place that at the uh at the gravide on a
flower and the hope is uh Nick is that he will we will peque his curiosity because we do know from the research
that I conducted and my colleagues they like to collect souvenirs momentos relative to the to the crime so we did
all did all those things uh unfortunately from investigated perspective had no control over this uh
but she was buried very very close to the road if and he would not not take that kind of risk but we were monitoring
the vehicles and we would catch him another way but had we not caught them another way that we talk about in the
book we would we would have come across him eventually because we had we had his
license plate number he stopped along with other cars and we were recording all of those uh vehicles and from him
once we would do a say a criminal check you know on these people who were stopping we would find with him that he
had history he had criminal history of attempted abduction early on in his life he was involved in obscene telephone
calls he tried to abduct a nine-year-old girl besides a another teenager so we would have got him sooner sooner than
later but uh we got him other ways forensically one thing that I found incredibly fascinating and I love when a
a great book comes out on a case and particularly one that fits into this realm for me where this is a case that I
thought that I knew very well and then I read your new book When a Killer calls and figure out I only knew kind of the
tip of the iceberg here there's a lot to digest and a lot to take in from your new book now one thing I picked up while
reading is that it almost appears to me in some bizarre way and this is something I didn't know
before that Larry was in love or in his in his own bizarre way thought he was in
love with Sherry fa Smith now he he would say later on that he was stalking her he he came across her in a parking
lot and so he was kind of surveilling her and uh on that particular day of the abduction she was with her boyfriend
they just left a pool party and we would find out later on that he was in that parking lot he was watching them they
were kissing and then then U after that they said goodbye to each other her and her boyfriend um Richard and he tailed
her home he follows the home very very closely had she pulled into a driveway and pulled her vehicle up to the house
he never would have pulled into the driveway her house sat back about 200 yards from the mailbox she stops her
vehicle at the mailbox to check the mail and at that point in time is when he pulls up behind her his motus operand we
we knew he had a gun we later would find out he had a gun we we assume he would have something like that to gain that
kind of control he also had a a camera and he would take was taking pictures of her and he just comes across as a nice
guy the guy you know people they they look at criminals they think they could they look a certain way this guy looks
like your your nextdoor neighbor it could be any he could be anyone but once he got her uh close to to his vehicle
and that's when you know when he grabbed her uh but he had this this fantasy and
but the fantasy you see can only last a short period of time because from the point of abduction to the point of
killing uh her was only several hours several hours and and so he had to perpetuate this and that's why
then he shifted over to the sister and then uh first he was very very nice very very polite to her but then he goes out
and he abducts and kills a nine-year-old child who's playing in front of her her
uh residence uh the family just moved into this trailer park and she's out in yard very boldly pulls up in front and
grabs this nine-year-old child takes off with her get a description of the vehicle but not enough a good enough
description um to where we can identify him and he weits and waits and waits and
then he calls up the first family the Smith family and Dawn and he tells Dawn he says you know remember that Abduction
the other day that girl Deborah helmet and she say yes she says well he gives her these directions the directions
where we can find the body and like her sister he waited for the body to be in advanced stages of decomposition before
uh he gave us the location you know you know of her but all this began and we did a profile um the police department
lexend the police department it's tremendous tremendous Department both the the sheriff and the unders Sheriff
attended the FBI National Academy which is an 11we program and the FBI trains about a thousand police officers a year
worldwide and so they they took classes one of the classes they took was in in in my area in criminal profil and
criminal psychology like so many cops once they go back to their Department they'll think they'll never have a case
like this and sure enough here they get hit by this case and then they they contact us and we don't the for your
listeners um we don't always go out on cases in fact most of the cases are kind of older cases when we get them old dog
cases but if we're involved in a case where the the offender is killing and now he's killing again and you probably
want to kill kill one more time if we don't identify them we're going out it's just like in the Atlanta child killing
case I mean I was receiving calls early on developing an analysis but there was so many killings so now I have to go on
site I got I got to see for myself I work with the investigators you know on the you know on site so this department
they were they were very very very open uh to suggestions and to proactive techniques uh this is like 19 you know
85 uh in June uh 19 you know of my background uh in 1983 the end of 83 November December I nearly died on the
Green River murder case I just burned out had viral cytis and came home in in a a wheelchair so I really lost my
confidence and and I didn't know if I I would miss a beat and so by now in 1984 I'm get I nearly had to die before
I could get help so now now they give me they give me agents from the field who I'm selecting or good investigators to
train them but it takes a while to to train them so so here this case comes up now in mid mid 85 now I got to go out I
got to go onsite and provide onsite consultation I'm going to bring a relatively new agent good Agent but a
relatively new agent in my program you know uh you know with the you know with me uh the profile that we did turned out
to be very very accurate I think we we just missed the age we thought he'd be between the late 20s to early 30s he was
about 34 35 which isn't wasn't isn't bad everything else about him uh his we felt
he would have some kind of electrical background he was an electrici body type we felt he would be be a slovenly uh
type we felt he was obsessive compulsive reasoning for that is because you can tell when he was calling the family uh
he would follow a script if was asked a question in the middle of his his uh lecture to say to Dawn or the mother it
would throw him off so then he had to repeat had had to repeat himself and so he would would be this obsessive
compulsive types kind of a guy who you go you go into his garage you'd see you see uh he'd have outline where the
screwdriver hangs or where the the hammer hangs he would outline that and his clothes it would be very orderly and
uh in his closet and his personal appearance would the same or as a vehicle and we went we were uh we felt
guy like this could not have any kind of a uh normal relationship with women that
he probably was married previously married uh in the past which he turned out he was uh he was previously married
had had a a son the criminal history he had that as I mentioned earlier he had you know all of that so you can do the
profile but then you have to really you know in fact when I just when I retired from the bureau
and in the last couple of years I was kind of getting away from the demographic profil Nick I wanted more to
get into proactive techniques I wanted the public to know I wanted the public to know more about uh characteristics or
the behavioral patterns because if if you develop a profile then you release it publicly you're trying to develop
leads but say you missed the age you're saying the guy's a high school dropout guy may have a Col college degree but
everything else may fit well a person may say gee everything fits this guy who I know but the education is off but the
so I I was getting away from from that uh but focusing more on pre-f behavior and post- offense uh post- offense
Behavior what was the behavior leading up to the crime what would have happened to him after the crime like this case we
told the police he will be changing his personal appearance we believe uh which he did do and uh so things like that and
then what can I do uh to maybe cause the subject to inject himself into the police investigation to go to the grave
site I had to keep him contacting the family which was very stressful uh Mr Smith I was kind of Heming and Hawn
about what I was going to uh be uh what was on my mind how I wanted to use the daughter as kind of a lure and and John
tell me what what what's on your mind what do you think what are you thinking here tell me I said well Mr Smith I said
we're dealing with somebody here who he's not the type who's going to pull into this driveway and and and hurt
anyone he's not that type but I can see what's happening here is that he's transferring you know his you know you
know his fondness his fantasy towards Dawn here and and I I need Dawn we need Dawn to uh to lure him in and to get him
to communicate uh to communicate with us and uh and then he AG agreed he agreed with me and and da another one very
religious family uh she's a u uh she's part of church in in South Carolina and uh she preaches has a beautiful voice
she sings uh the Sherry Fay beautiful girl here it is on a Friday May 31st she's graduating Sunday from high school
she's going to sing the national anthem uh at her graduation I I communicate with the family to this day I mean all
these years and they set up a fund for Sher face Smith that I I participate in raising money for scholarship for
because she wanted to go into uh into music so it's just emotionally emotionally you know I just had my
physical the other day and and the the doctor said how you how do you do sleeping J how do you sleep I said I
can't I can't sleep I have I have a very difficult time sleeping here I said if it was me I'd get up at three or four
o'clock in the morning but my my wife wouldn't appreciate it because I just think of I'm just always thinking of
things or cases that are that are on my desk or or work uh uh that uh that I'm currently involved in I mean the job
your career almost took your life I remember reading in one of your earlier books where you said you were working so
much that you almost prayed that you would you know you would try to think about the cases up to the point of
falling asleep so hope you would dream about the cases so you could continue working while you're sleeping yeah I I
would uh I would go to bed was quiet everything's quiet and have a trying to come up with ideas help me help me come
up with ideas and if I kept a pad of paper and if I wake up and I thought of something I would write it down because
I'm afraid I was going to forget about it you know what's interesting Nick is that people they watch television they
see the shows and they but the degree today well the new degree is kind of forensic psychology but there are so
many people so many young people too uh and uh majority of the my audiences too when I go out and do public speaking uh
80 90% are women they're interested in this field but I have to tell them this job can be hazardous to your health and
and it's not just me it's to the other other people that were in my in my unit because you really you really have to
throw yourself into it understanding and walking in the shoes of the subject as well as of the victim and you're not
you're not working one case at a time at any given time uh the agents that in my
unit we were doing a thousand cases a year uh I for 12 12 agent profiles in myself and and we had I also was
training Secret Service was training uh training them they you would think that they had a program they didn't even have
a program like this you would have think they they would have trained Secret Service the bureau Alcohol Tobacco and
Firearms the volume of work and the nature of the work and that's why leading up to the time where I nearly
died I'm I'm up in New York training a couple hundred cops and and I know my material very well so my mouth is
talking but my brain is thinking of these cases I got to go up to Alaska where a guy named Rob I know would later
on his name was robertt Hansen the anub is up there abducting women and then hunting him down like wild animals he
would fly up into the Wilderness strip him down naked and hunt them hunt them down I got to go to um Seattle King
County to work on the green Riv murder case and have all these other cases so I have an anxiety attack Nick I think I'm
going to I'm having a heart attack and the the audience because I because I know my material so my mouth is moving
but I'm sweating my heart's pounding and and got I'm saying to myself regroup gotta regroup so I
regrouped and no one really detected anything as far as I know but when I came back to quano I knew Uh something's
going to happen to me I may die something bad so I took out income protection insurance I took out extra
life insurance I didn't tell anyone didn't tell my family anything but the day I had to go out on the Green River
murder case uh I said goodbye to my wife at home and then she's a school teacher
and I drove over to say goodbye to her again and uh why why are you going out there why you doing this I I said I have
to uh they're asking for on-site consultation I have to train this new these two new agents they assigned me to
to my unit and you don't look well your eyes I said well yeah I have a tremendous headache what was happening
was my brain was swelling up and my apparently later on the doctors say my immune system was just so so low and
when I when I came back in a wheelchair from this uhh from the Green River murder in fact I was going to be buried
I'm a veteran as well I was going to be buried at the veteran uh Cemetery they were making plans because my uh I
collapsed back at the hotel room and as you know prob read mine hunter and I know you did and and uh I thought I was
getting a flew and my brain was swelling and I told the agents it's it's Tuesday
night I'll see you Friday when we head back to quanico and uh back to DC and uh that and they said okay we'll see you
Friday and I this what I told them what to do when they go back to the task force well that night I collapsed and I
remained on that floor until Friday until they kicked down the door when they found me my body was in a frog like
position and every they said every 30 seconds to a minute my body start shaking you know just trembling like crazy my
face would become distorted uh emergency people came First Responders my body temperature was
between 104 107 and what happened was it it my brain split in my right uh temporal lobe which would cause
temporary I was amazing how I got over this but temporary paralysis uh but they thought for sure that I was going to I
was going to you know die uh from that and it it made me though Nick it made me a better leader a good leader be because
uh the people that do this work they throw themselves into it and when I would see people in my unit who who are
uh giving every drop of of sweat and blood to help others I would tell them to go home and then they they start to
go home but with the cases I said no you leave the cases here but you see in the
bureau it's so it is so bureaucratic you're not supposed to allow agents to do that you got to sign in and sign out
and so I would break all the you know all the the rules but it just made me a better a better person here but I get I
keep getting caught in the abyss I keep I I would go out to the cemetery where I
was going to be buried and I look for my date when I feel like oh here it goes I
I can't I got I can't I have no control over what's going on I have just so much
so much so many cases and so many calls coming in from whether it's profile I was also a hostage negotiator so these
young kids that's when I go out I tell them I say you know this is not like the you know like 60 Minute show or
something that you're watching on television and and when you see this this death and dying and it's not just
even murders it's victims of rape uh and these child abductions child child killings and then the impact how it has
on the families and I have families Nick that this this is unbelievable who want
me to tell them in the case of say a homicide how their their daughter how their child died uh what did the killer
specifically do did my child suffer uh or did she die quickly did my child put up a fight uh and and at first I
wouldn't I I couldn't do it but then they get mad at you and it's just like when family members they want to go in
the morg and I I I didn't realize this until I was working with victims of violent crime they want to see for
themselves what what took place to to their to the loved one and so you think you're protecting them by no you can't
go in there but they get angry now they want to see for themselves they want to they want to to just to see what their
loved one uh you know went through and and suffered so so it's it's emotionally draining it's just uh you
know and when you work so many cases it's has a cumulative effect you know on you so I had to go see his shrink when
when I came back kind of like Tony Soprano going to a shrink so I uh and and the test they gave me they said you
burning the can at both ends you're dist get you'd get you could have a heart attack and I was exercising but I was
exercising to the point of exhausting myself just trying to kind of numb my feelings which uh I couldn't do I really
I really couldn't do so when they finally gave me help just because they give you help
doesn't mean uh that you can train somebody overnight it takes about two years to train somebody and like in any
profession it takes about five years before they really start getting good you know at at what they do I know I'm
talking a lot Nick give me a chance fine and you're right I'm still trying to get
good at what I do but it's you know you didn't have to pinch yourself to know that you were human it it's it's your
heart and it's your soul that really infected your brain and and the stress is what almost took you down because I
can only imagine you're sitting there you know you're being moved all over the country to to take on these different
Adventures but here you are in New York and trying to teach and and what you know better you know inside you're
better equipping these Law Enforcement Officers to to increase their toolbox and do a better job become more
efficient at what they do so you are helping but the whole time in the back of your mind you're going what am I
doing here if I'm not in Alaska then we're losing lives that I'm not saving lives and then while in Alaska dealing
with uh bad Bob Hansen you're in the back of your mind you're going why am I not in Washington there are people
getting at a crazy at alarming rate uh in in in the state of Washington at the same time so I I mean I cannot imagine
the the the stress and and the anxiety that that that can [Music] cause this show is sponsored by better
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[Music] today [Music] well then Nick other thing other thing too Nick is it's kind of like that it
was in the mind Hunter u Netflix series is is that uh I got involved in this I just wanted to be a good instructor uh I
was the youngest agent when I came back to quano I had about seven years in the field had four years in the military
seven years in the field HH negotiation uh also uh uh bank robbery coordinator May on the SWAT team couple Advanced
degrees at that point in time but I was the youngest one and auditing the classes these instructors they didn't
have their facts right and they were being challenged by those National Academy students in the class who worked
the Charles Manson Cas with David burit the Son of Sam so I just wanted to be a good instructor and so that's I came up
the idea of go into the prisons and let's talk to the to the experts then then you have Dr Anne Burgess joins us
from Boston College and she was also at the University of Penn she was at both universities came and and to uh her job
was it's different it's not like uh Netflix how they uh the show how she's telling us how to do interviews now
she's basically is academic telling us how to develop the academic instruments for uh the interviews as far as the
interviews itself now we're doing that or developing the proactive you know techniques you know we're doing
you know all that kind of stuff uh but so the other thing and we didn't have the blessing I didn't have the blessing
of necessarily the FBI either in the early days I mean if Hoover was alive he this could never even have been
accomplished at all he never would have done this and and then even then after he died in
19772 uh there was still you know what is this uh Behavioral Science this BS kind of stuff you know you know you know
why you doing that why why you going to these prisons why why you doing these you know interviews so you didn't have
the support necessar from the bureau and then you when you go out to the cops initially too it's like they didn't
trust us because we were FBI and they thought in the days of Hoover you know we had we had um the agency would
dominate the police or take the police would work a case and in Comes The Bureau to swoop maybe swoop up the uh
the case from the from the the local police and and and so I wanted to change that and by the time I I left the bureau
it was interesting it was a situation where we got so tight with the local police and really then our agents in
charge of our offices out in the field office so say u a case would go down they were calling us directly and and
you tell them you have to go through headquarters the criminal investigated division no we got we want to talk
directly to you and your unit you have to go and So eventually we was okay here's what you do or here special AE in
charge of the Cleveland FBI you got a kidnapping here you're going to go before the press this is what you say
this is what you don't say and then headquarters would would get on us like what the hell are you doing telling the
agent in charge what to do well he's asking us he's asking us so that that uh caused a lot of stress just see you know
how you're being you know being you know treated within the agency then outside the agency but but then we this time
went on uh we were pretty uh welcome and and and always give credit to the local
police they're the ones and the police police or and FBI case the agents or whatever agency you're going to solve it
I'm just a tool in your toolbx that I may be able to help you I may not be able to uh to help you and uh people
don't realize too it's not just these kind of cases I work public in my unit the corruption cases foreign Counter
Intelligence we did did you know Assessments in those kind of cases and arson and bombings product tampering you
know the Tylenol case out of Chicago so all kinds of cases product tampering all you know all types of
cases that we did so we had a great uh it was a great great Bunch uh people that we had doing a lot of a lot of work
back then we were lucky enough to have Dr Anne Burgess on just a few weeks ago oh is that right yeah it was fascinating
to talk with her um but she is yeah yeah her air is in victim with the victim she
did you know did a lot she's amazing I mean for her age and she's still going going at you know at it uh but but like
I said when she came down uh it's really funny because the Wendy character uh you
know the is she's an as you know is Nurse forensic for forensic nursing but and they have this like like a
psychologist in the the Mind Hunter the Mind Hunter uh series and uh and then her character
is a lesbian Ann is not a lesbian she's married with several you several children but I did a presentation with
her at Boston College up there and uh they were really thrilled with her that she got you know the you know this uh
you know this attention although they Hollywood they hollywoodized her role they hollywoodized Mike Holden Ford the
actors you playing like my role and uh everyone's hoping that there'll be a season 3 the actors want a season 3 uh
it's up to David Fincher the director uh and uh whether or not they'll be it it was supposed to be a five-part series
five parts and here they ended with two but they took a year they take a year and uh for each each uh of those 10
episodes and a year for the nine and they were filmed in the Pittsburgh up in the Pittsburgh area
and uh so they had all relocate Jonathan grth who played my role holding Ford he
he lives up in that area so there was no problem with him but Fincher is just so
obsessive compulsive that in season two with the first episode uh the actors were telling me this that there was the
barbecue scene where uh Bill tench like my partner he's barbecuing flipping hamburgers and hot dogs in his backyard
and the neighbors are over and they start asking questions what what do you do I'm at the baval science unit and I
do interviews they get really engrossed in that they repeated that uh 74 or 75 times that one scene of flipping hot
dogs and hamburgers 7 and uh some actors can't take it but uh they can't they can't do that uh that's why they the uh
I had a girlfriend in uh season one season one the actress who had uh had uh they she just lasted one year Holden for
thought he was going to have this relationship you know and the and they would live happily ever after and now it
was great actress but it's just can you can you be that it's really strict you know and over and over to get it and
that's why these he makes these unbelievable uh movies or House of Cards you know was amazing series on you
Netflix well in season two there's that the big case obviously is the Atlanta child killings and right if we do make
it to a season 3 I mean you liveed the life what would be the big case would there be one big case or would it be do
you think it'd be more like season one I know you're not fully in charge here but
yeah no but would it be more like season one where it's a lot of uh smaller cases
and smaller involvement I had very little input surprisingly the actors were surprised themselves had very little
input from the writer at all uh uh the whole Mallen came down here uh stayed with me at my house and everything he
really dives into it Jonathan gra who plays me I didn't meet him until after you know after the fact and U and if
you're using M Hunter as a guide well M Hunter I I thought I was going to be a one book Wonder I can't so that so I
Only Could Touch on the cases like Atlanta child there were so many other and just like the L Jee Bell case you
know you'll touch on it but you won't go deep you don't have time time to go deep
you know deep into it like you can in a a single book but there are so many cases I mean they could do the Alaskan
case uh they could do the the Trailside killer uh they could do John John Wayne gasey they could do uh Ted you know Ted
bunde they could do I mean there just so you know you know so many of they could
do zodiac doesn't have to solve the Zodiac it's really not solved but you could do a case like that you could take
a go into to do a a Tylenol case or or uniom uh case there's just and there's so many other smaller cases that they
you you could do I mean those who've read nobody involved in Atlanta case it didn't happen like
like that where I'm checking into a motel and the woman checking me in is uh ends up uh you know inviting me out I
think in the in the show it's like I'm going to go out on a date or something with her but she's ends up bringing me
to where the uh where many of the victim's uh family are waiting to try to get my involvement you know you know in
get involved in that case it didn't go uh down like that and if and if anything uh when I went down on the case I
mean they raised hell with me and uh there was a case where I I only case I think the only maybe the only agan who
was censured censured and and then got a letter of accommodation and an incentive
award for the same case you know they hate you then they love you have a LoveHate relationship you you you know
with you they they hated me when I came back from England I was training the military I'm down in Virginia and
talking to people in Corrections and here a hand goes up what about this guy they just arrested in Atlanta and I said
well I said I said if it's if he turns out to be um the Atlant child killer he's he's going to be good for many he's
good for many well the crap hit the fan man right the bureau looks at that as I'm a spokesperson now for the agent
charge of the investigation I I thought I was going to be fired and then so then
as the case started going and um moving along did the assessment the profile and
then uh got involved in the uh you know with with the prosecutors and coached the prosecutors and and then criticized
the way the case was going uh like like one day they a hair and fiber uh expert for the defense took the stand and
looked like the John F Kennedy junor good-looking guy didn't know [ __ ] from Shola about her and forensics but the
the the jurors loved him they they they love good how good he was he was speaking to them and so the ne that
afternoon have this big conference you know and they go around room did you hear that guy you talk about here in
fiber he didn't know what the hell he was talking about and going around like the horn around this big table what do
you think John I said you guys are losing the case you what you're Lo you're losing the case he may not know
you know what he's talking about but you guys from from uh Bureau and from gbi jur jur of your Bureau Investigation
you're so damn technical I have no idea what you even saying it doesn't even make sense to me and I know have this as
much as at least as a jurors you and so they so they would throw me out of there they would
you know send me back to quano then I tell them this one time I told them hey I said just just so you know Wayne
Williams going to get sick in the courtroom one week from today oh get out of here I go back to quano Williams gets
sick in the courtroom and uh I told him before why he will get sick in the courtroom and then the next thing you
know get your ass back here so I had to go back to I spent five months down there and then got involved than
coaching the prosecutor great great guy Jack Mard on how to how to cross-examine
Williams because I knew he would take the stand and Al binder who was the defense attorney great he's a great guy
I got to meet him really when we weren't you know when he wasn't cross-examining
me or anybody else uh I I knew he would put Williams on the stand as because they were losing but I knew Williams
couldn't take it you know take any cross-examinations so I worked with Jack Jack Mard and did a tremendous
tremendous job and and broke him down on the standing I know you've got that FBI
profile over there he's pointing in my my direction you're not going to get me to fit it and your listeners may know
that right now they they're doing an investigation down there because they're trying to determine you know he was
convicted of two when we were down there we thought maybe eight to 10 were related the other ones we we couldn't
see a relationship here but but all those cases 28 26 six cases were closed were closed uh by the police so they are
looking the parents are demanding that the police look at these other cases which I was told they were you know they
were doing yeah and that has always fascinated me as well because I kind of feel like and and this is just very
basic psychology and very my limited understanding of course I'm no expert here but I look at a case like that and
I see I don't know if if Wayne Williams it doesn't seem likely to me that the female victims are his you're exactly
right and it doesn't seem likely to me either that maybe the white victims are his either um right he seemed to play
within a certain sandbox if you will and those ones were out of that box and and
I don't know that unless it was some kind of learning curve or you know that he was working on maybe there there is
some kind of mixup there but but it does it looks highly like likely to me that there may have been another serial
offender operating roughly about the same time right every year I was down there I was looking every year in
Atlanta they have between 10 to 12 child killings uh down there a lot of those are even domestic domestic uh related
types of types of cases see at the time though at the time when this that case was going on all the parents wanted to
be on that list to be on the list uh even though some of the way they the kids were killed were totally different
than the way I believe the ones that we selected how williams was responsible but they wanted to be on the list uh
because there was compensation involved uh with Sammy Davis Jr was down there Frank Sina putting on U big uh uh
presentations singing uh singing and raising money you know they raised millions millions of dollars
uh which they would then give to the families so everyone want their child even though no one's going to stop them
they compensated but I knew darn well you you mentioned Nick those two females like I want Angela lanir no you how she
was killed panties was stuffed in her mouth uh she's Li your strangulation totally you know totally uh you know
different and uh then the and some of the other ones too had like multiple stab wounds
uh the big thing with me was in that case was to say that the offender would be black statistically it's white but
but generally when you look at crimes you you crimes are intra intra racial now you do you we'll have an offender
cross over say he was targeting uh uh black it will go with white but is they have a we
call a preferential victim preferential age a preferential uh you know sex or even a look a certain look we had one in
the midwest one time was women with red hair so so this is you know this preference so with with him yeah he was
he thought of himself with he he was a ham operator he had a little radio station he can only broadcast a few
blocks in his in his neighborhood uh he thought he was going to develop the next
Jackson 5 uh but there was mishandling on that case by the U even by us it was it was mishandled when he when he was
stopped on that bridge uh they could have taken him in they could have Tak taking them in for uh questioning they
look in the car they see uh ligatures in the back of the the back seat of of the
car here you know it's like 1 or 2:00 you know in the morning you know when they a car stopped they hear a splash in
the you know in the water uh but they didn't do it and then the interview that took place I was down there but I didn't
get to do the interview uh they were way too hard they were way too aggressive uh
you know with uh you know with him on an interview and just by looking like it looked like he wanted to talk and he
kind of hung even hung around the office uh you know afterwards it's just it it's
just you know the interview some people are good at it and some people are not and when you look at a case say like
Georgia this this case or or you look at uh you look at Larry jeene from my book The Killer calls uh why
will he talk he faces the death penalty he he's a child killer and child killers
are low in the totem pole in prison often times you have to segregate them because they're out to get them you know
so what can I do you know what you know I'm not going to do an interrogation I'm
not going to do an inter not an interview I want to have a conversation a conversation with him but I have to
you have to provide some type of a face scenario to give them a way out give them an excuse an excuse uh whether it's
like another side of the personality they have like multiple personality they're insane or sometimes you have to
Total investigators may not like this but you have to almost project the blame onto the victim that the victim was the
Seducer and you panicked you know to get the confession you know you know out of
the person to put put in there doing it that's what you're trying to you're trying to you do so um some mistakes
were made but to clear all of those cases uh was wrong in my opinion and a lot of people's opinion which is so
bizarre the psychology of it because you almost sitting across from the killer at
the table you almost have to empathize with the stress that the the criminal put on themselves by committing these
acts and the and the choices and reactions that they had to make In the Heat of the Moment you almost have
empathize with that where we have a criminal Like Larry Jean Bell and Wayne Williams who are incapable of
empathizing with the people that they are killing it's it's just a it's a it's a weird bizarre situation yes it's
really you're you're you're portraying even uh false you know empathy uh whether it's you know whether it's Bell
you know I got involved in the interview I wasn't supposed to you coach others but
they want to bring him into the room where I and my and the agent uh Ron Walker who came with me and it was funny
the Donnie Meyers they call them solicitors down there not prosecutors and he said you know these boys here you
know these boys from the FBI and they profiled you Larry to a tea they profiled you every they everything about
you came true and Belle's just looking at us you know and then they just leave they leave Belle with us in this room
and uh it was this was not not planned they had him for hours and hours the police did trying to interview him he
really never fested up to anything and so sat him down on the couch and just coincidentally I happened to be wearing
a I got call like two in the morning we were down there you know they got this guy now and lry Je Bell and I was I put
on his kind of whitish pants and a white shirt it looked clinical and it turned out to be was pretty good it was it
wasn't done purposely and so I'm sitting right in front of him on like a table coffee table and uh I just kind of give
him historical view of of what we do and and what I found in uh in those prison interviews it's like uh people like who
I spoke to I never use word mered or killed or that kind of stuff you know do that but they I said they tell them it's
it's almost like you know two different sides of them there there's a side that good side and the bad side and and when
they perpetrate the crime they know there's they did it but it's like it's like a dreamlike they're almost like in
a dreamlike state and I go I do this long uh siloy I go on and on on and he's and he's just looking at me nodding with
me and then and I I say when did you start feeling bad about this case uh Larry I mean and and he said and he's
just staring at me he says when I saw uh the funeral and I saw the newspaper articles and and pictures of the family
at the cemetery and uh that's when I felt bad you see so why then I I shift from that is and I
get into this you know the side it could be two sides and then closest he would come to confession was the he says all I
know is that the the good Larry Jean Bell couldn't have done something like this but the bad Larry Jean Bell you
know could could have done that so that was as close as we came and then I presented him uh in front of Mrs Smith
and Dawn and I I coach them a little bit to tell them when you hear him say I know it's you I know it's you know I
recognize your voice and and um I did did that and he did the same routine the good versus the bad good good Larry Jean
Bell couldn't have done this but the bad Larry Jean Bell could have and he would
go trial the evidence was just overwhelming um and yeah I'm not going to tell the audience of how they got how
got a really good lead I'll leave that part part out because it was really interesting how we you know got on to
him did you have to testify against Bell yes yeah I I did and uh uh good prosecutors he U uh got me on
his stand I talked about the interview you know there wasn't really much you know he could get me on you know on
there and uh uh afterwards we uh you know we talked you're pretty good you you were good on the stand all this
other you know BS stuff but yeah he's trying to he was trying to save him from the death penalty and and I knew and I
told the prosecutor the solicitor I I say the only thing they're going to try here is an insanity defense so so what
what you going to see starting day one you're going to see this guy uh you know flipping out in the courtroom in front
of the jurors and everyone show to show that he's that's his only chance I mean we got it his goose is is cooked uh and
that's exactly what he did and then he would take the stand and he did and he did the same R and Raven you know I'm
God and all that well it took the it took the jurors I think it was like 45 minutes 48 minutes to to convict him on
this case and as well it was another trial on Deborah helck and the same thing you know over there and then and
he was sentenced got the death penalty the thing that surprised me is he he could have taken uh lethal injection or
the electric chair and he took the electric chair which he's such a coward and I think I think in his mind uh and
that happened 1996 is when he was executed is that he just wanted to show I think even I how tough he is a tough
guy you know because everyone would have been on him from the prison guards to the inmates being his child killer you
coward and everything so he could have taken the lethal injection but here he picks the he picks the uh chair which is
pretty could be pretty brutal yeah I I had always wondered about that if that was kind of a last ditch effort to you
know prove that he's insane almost right like the the normal person would pick lethal injection this picks the the
electric chair not to uh to to Circle back too far but why did you think that Wayne Williams would get sick in court
or or pretend to be sick I okay what happened was is that Al binder was the prosecutor and excuse me defense
attorney and Jim kitchens was the other defense attorney I got to meet meet with
him and U they were shocked to find out that I was in the courtroom the whole time because they were going to bring in
a a psychologist from Arizona to testify that Williams didn't do it uh it wasn't
responsible they were shocked uh but but anyway so they put Williams on the stand
and what they wanted to show and uh to take the stand under cross- examination Al Al binder his nickname was Jaws
is that uh look at this guy look at him he looks like the Pillsbury Dough Boy look look at his hands are these the
hands of a killer of a serial killer look at these These Hands here and so uh I no one was going to buy this the
jurors and I I said his only Ploy here is that is that uh uh once we cross examine him he's going to have to claim
you that he's there sick there's some sickness he was going to be a sympathy Ploy and so I end up coaching Jack Mard
the the prosecutor and uh another prosecut Gordon Miller was there and because they
were shocked when I said one week from today he's going to get sick in the in the courtroom and he did and uh I told
Jack I said Jack CU When you get when he takes when he gets a stance your choice
here I said the defense attorney grabbed his hands you touch his hands and then when you touch his hands say in a real
low voice what was it like Wayne what was it like Wayne when you wed you wrapped your fingers around Terry Pew's
throat did you panic Wayne did you panic and he says in a weak voice no and then
he realizes what he just confessed so then he gets up and he starts screaming and yelling that's when that's when he
he does the the pointing uh because the next day in the paper is an artist conception drawing artist in the
courtroom had him pointing and saying I know you got this FBI profile over here and you going to try to get me to fit it
and uh well you're fitting it perfectly you never should have they never should have let him take the you know take the
stand you know at all I got to meet the prosecutors and Mary welcome was one of the excuse me the defense attorneys was
there was three of them there and I was hearing fiber evidence that but it was such unique unique uh fiber evidence and
the big expert for the bureau is a guy agent by Hal Deadman uh he testified plus the the gbi but they only found was
interesting they only found the evidence on the cases that myself and that Roy Hazelwood from the unit we thought were
related these uh these cases and that was what's interesting is that's what the lab only founded on those particular
uh cases you know not these other ones early in your career you spent a lot of time interviewing serial killers behind
you know Prison Walls and one thing that I found this is just just a a a personal
question here um and I've I've studied your career throughout through your books um over the years and you know
keer was always somebody that you would said was one of the more interesting interviews because he was able to
articulate what he did why he did and he was willing to speak about it now in Ker's case he is one of these rare
specimens that he you know he kills once he gets out uh when he gets into his early 20s but he was already locked up
at age 15 for killing his grandparents I wondered had you and uh Bob westler ever
been in a situation where you were interviewing a juvenile serial murderer not after only
after um yeah after they were convicted Monty risle out of Alex Alexandria who killed uh sex workers and he was only he
was he was seen a psychologist he was only like in his team and uh the psychologist was giving him a
true bill of health is a great guy kind of like keer and meanwhile psychiatrist didn't realized this guy was killing
doing all these killings around the Alexandria Virginia uh Virginia you know area uh I have gone before parole boards
uh and fact I met just yesterday with a parole board head uh who did the book The Killer across the table a couple of
books back and and Joseph mcgallen was one of the ones who killed a m was a school teacher who kills a a brownie
seven years of age going house the house selling cookies and on this particular day she was collecting money and knocks
on this guy mcgaw's door and uh I they picked me because he he got to do the interview they heard me doing like a a
talk show on a radio kind of like today we have podcast and and uh uh and he said we got to get this guy down here to
this guy M's getting ready to get out of you know out of prison he served 30 years that's the maximum sentence so
they they uh bring me to uh uh to the prison up in new New Jersey which very intimidating intimidating prison to
begin with and and they put me in a room I tell them what I want how I want the room the furniture and everything they
introduce me to him and so I I have to go now in a fishing in a hunt here to try to let's see what this guy's
if he's changed has he been you know rehabilitated or what's his thinking process like so I was in with him say
six hours or so and then and never using always positive when you get out where are you going when you get out and he
says New York and I said New York I man I said I was raised in New York as a kid
I said man it's expensive it's expensive as hell and and and he tells me about he's got a excon up there he get a job
you know you know working working there and then I kind of segue into the crimes
I said what happened that day when you heard the knock on the screen door uh and uh and it was uh Joan delandro the
seven-year-old girl and uh he said my mother was away at work and this guy's like 27 at the time and my grandmother's
upstairs sleeping and he his he lives in a B level house down in the in the basement part his bedroom he says when I
looked up I knew I was going to kill her John I knew I was going to kill her and
and so he goes through all the the details of of what he does you know to this child what was so interesting in
fact I was talking to this parole board head who brought me in on a case back then just yesterday was that I wish it
was a video could could watch this this this play between us because he all of a
sudden what you trying to do is you're trying to turn on that CD in their brain and bring them back to the crime no
matter who it is Charles Manson whatever whoever you're talking David buris to get him back there and takes a while and
it and so he starts staring off and it's was freezing in his cell it was cold he
is sweating he's sweating profusely and it and his chest muscles and his pecs are are trembling as he's telling me
everything that he's done all the specifics of of his crime uh and and he would turn around with a while to make
sure the guards weren't weren't uh watching weren't listening in on this he he trusted me that that well as a matter
of fact they would intercept a letter uh before it was sent out to a woman that he was communicating with and he
mentions me in the letter saying you know I was interviewed by this guy John Douglas the FBI and His behavoral
science profiling stuff and and he said it wasn't until I was well into this interview I realized he wasn't taking
notes and he didn't have any notes in front of him he had no papers but he knew my case backwards and forwards he
knew everything about him and see that so and and so that's one of the other things I learned about doing the
interviews you you must maintain contact eye contact you're dealing with paranoid
people they don't trust anybody particularly now that they're in prison what what are you doing what do you have
the audio you know they show the like in mind Hunter the audio tape in the beginning the tape recording we used it
once we used it for uh uh for uh what do you call what's the guy the guy you just
mentioned uh a little while ago yeah K I'm sorry you me we use it for camper uh but but they're all who's going to
listen to this the warden going to hear this so just discard same thing you thinking know who's who's going to see
these see these uh notes here and so this guy I mean when I going back to mcgallen tells me everything including I
said how you going to live when you get out go to New York but I got money John got money why well make a license place
right have $600,000 and he's always looking back to see if the guards are listening and how'd you get that so when
my mother died I got insurance money my grandmother sale of the house insurance money and so i s where is the money I I
put the money out of state why' you put the money out of state so the family can't get any any of the money oh I said
oh man you'll do great 600 Grand you you'll you'll be fine when you get to New York well the next day I go before
the parole board and uh and I start telling telling them what happened and how this interview went down they're
shocked what I'm talking about psychologist psychiatrists court appointed uh people who sit on the
parole board a lot of them aren it's it's done in every state have no uh criminal background in investigative
backgrounds at all and and they're shocked mayble to get this and he says and they refer to him as a pedophile
I said wait no he's not a pedophile wait he killed a seven-year-old on that particular day a parole board he a
70-year-old lady could have knocked on that door and she would have died he was going to kill somebody and I gave him
the different reasons so was going on in his life you know at at that time he's no pedophile he's a killer and you let
him out of prison what's going to happen is that you have not rehabilitated him uh he was never habilitated to begin
with uh yeah and so you didn't do anything you didn't change anything and all you did was put the physical body on
ice for a period of 30 years but you didn't change what's up in his brain I didn't you didn't change any of that the
fantasies because when he was telling me about the crime he was right down to the
the nitty-gritty specifics you know of the crime and no remorse at all not not not a shred of of remorse came from this
guy so he'll go out go up to New York and things don't go well um don't believe that you think that's another
theory that there's burnout with these guys there's no burnout because this these are crimes of anger and crimes of
power and so you know that's what you have to look forward to if you you release this guy so they end up giving
him a hit they gave him on top of that he gave a 30-year hit and of course he appeals appeals appeals but he just died
he died I think just last year you know he died thank goodness so they got rid of rid of him when a killer calls a
haunting story of murder criminal profiling and Justice in a small town Mr Douglas I love the new book I know the
listeners are going to love it as well anything else any final words about this book this project before we wrap up no I
think it's it's good for the um people are interested in profiling and how the specifics of how you prepare and things
that you can do and can't do you know I try to do with all the books and in the next book whatever we select we'll we'll
do it with that one but uh so far it's got some very very good reviews I think uh your listeners will enjoy it and I
really appre appreciate Nick you having me on here too you really grown over the
years well this you have a tremendous uh following well thank you so much for stopping by and seeing us again and I
hope that you will come by and see us again on the next project oh I will thank you please invite me wonderful
thank you Mr [Music] Douglas you did you miss me of course you did because I missed you I missed your musk
for everything True Crime Check out true Crim garage.com and doesn't get much better than the OG goat talking with the
colonel until next week be good be kind and don't litter [Music] Angie's List is now Angie we've heard a
lot of theories about why I thought it was an Eco move fewer worse less paper no it was so you could say it faster no
it's to be more iconic must be a tech thing but those aren't quite right it's because now you can compare upfront
prices book a service instantly and even get your project handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us
so much more than just a list get started at angie.com that's ngi or download the app today

When a Killer Calls /// Part 3 /// 555

Part 3 of 3

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

This week we have a real treat for all of our Garage friends. A three part series featuring an in depth case review by the True Crime Garage guys that includes rare audio from the killer. In Part 3 Nic is joined in the Garage by best selling author and Legendary F.B.I. Profiler John Douglas. Join us for a fascinating conversation about the case of Shari Faye Smith and Debra May Helmick, F.B.I strategies, Serial Killers and the sadistic criminal mind. Gather 'round, grab a chair, grab a beer and join us for this special three part series.

Recommended Reading: When a Killer Calls; A Hunting Story of Murder, Criminal Profiling, and Justice in a Small Town

This is the latest book from Legendary F.B.I. Profiler John Douglas and Mark Olshaker, the best selling authors of Mindhunter.

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Brief Summary

John Douglas discusses Larry Jean Bell's chilling crimes and the emotional impact on victims' families in his new book, "When a Killer Calls."

Key points

When a Killer Calls. A deep dive into the horrific case of Larry Jean Bell, exploring his psychological profile and the emotional toll on victims' families.
A Near-Death Experience. A recount of a life-threatening incident that changed the speaker's perspective on leadership.
The Stress of the Job. The speaker shares the intense pressure and anxiety faced while working on multiple cases.
The Emotional Toll on Families. The speaker discusses the emotional burden of informing families about violent crimes.
The Case Takes a Turn. Tensions rise as the prosecution realizes they're losing the case against Wayne Williams.
A Shocking Prediction. The investigator predicts Wayne Williams will become ill during the trial, and it happens.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Your daughter selected Suffocation.

A chilling admission from the killer about the victim's choice.

7:05WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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