John Wayne Gacy /// Part 2 /// 106 | Forensic Files

foreign [Music] [Applause] [Applause] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that all week he's been calling me the colonel well he
is the captain well thanks Colonel it's good to be seen and it's good to see you
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right everybody punch a clown and grab a chair and grab a beer let's talk some true crime thank you colonel
foreign [Music] this is true crime garage and this is the case of John Wayne Gacy
[Music] the Cook County State's Attorney's office tonight denying reports that there is an investigation underway to
find an accomplice to the murders of those 27 people their bodies found at the home of John Gacy those reports are
being spurred by statements of Jeff rignall who says Gacy drugged and sexually molested him at the Gacy home
Gacy himself scheduled appear tomorrow in court to face the charges in connection with the rignal case but it's
doubtful that he will be in court the ramifications of the mass murder tonight continue to spread even to people
totally unrelated to Gacy his house or those he had dealings with the sad effects now reaching into Chicago's
community of clowns for hundreds of people in the Chicago area who use the grease paint costumes
and antics of a clown this picture in the Chicago Tribune came as a shock it was a publicity picture John Gacy used
in his sometime role as an entertainer of children now clown organizations say their image has been damaged with guilt
by association these are members of the clown Guild of Metropolitan Chicago better known by such names as Snappy
happy wacko Ho-Ho and me too pictures show them in action doing what they love making youngsters laugh even a
tiny smile will make their day sometimes they are paid for their work often they perform at no charge for
charity but now the first question people ask is did they know and work with John Gacy we have checked the
National Organization which is clans of America the shrine organization a number
of the organizations within the Chicago area and after checking with these people we've found that he is not now
nor has ever been a member or associated with any of these organizations within this area
the public might be wondering how they can avoid a person with questionable character coming out to a party what
would be some of the ways that you could guarantee the type of people that you're coming
out would be reputable I believe the main thing would be to if they're going to get a clown is to get an organization
such as the Vagabond clones or clowns of Metropolitan Chicago Nairobi clown troop an organization that
has a number of members and that way they can pick from those members the clown Guild wanted their story told not
because they fear economic loss but because of the apprehension they sense from the public
and tonight they offer insight into John Gacy by analyzing the way he put on his
clown makeup they say the lines forming his mouth are not grounded but pointed giving a harsh mean look only a true
clown could notice that [Music] all right can't make that up people that's real news let's start off by telling a story
that takes place December 11 1978 in Des Plaines Illinois at a little place called Nissan's Pharmacy
John Wayne Gacy is there and he's busy writing up a proposal he has met with the owner to do some remodeling at the
pharmacy he's taking measurements and shooting the [ __ ] with the owner and while he's there he also talks to a
handful of the employees most of them being young teenagers most of the people he speaks with are young females after
the appointment John Gacy goes home on the way home he realizes that he forgot his appointment book at the pharmacy he
hadn't he had another appointment that night so it was important that he retrieved that book as soon as possible
once he got home he left his black Oldsmobile there and he hopped in his pickup truck this is the one with the
snow plow on the front of it and he drove back to the pharmacy and he was thinking that maybe it wouldn't be a
complete waste of a trip if he somehow picked up a you know a plow job while he was out you know keep in mind this is
winner in Illinois while he is there he when he pulls up he bumps into a young man this is 15 year
old Robert pieste now Rob had seen John Wayne Gacy at the pharmacy earlier that day and he had overheard John talking to
some of the pharmacy employees telling them that he was looking to hire new help and that he started off his
employees at five dollars an hour that's five dollars an hour for part-time workers now Rob PS at the time he's 15
years old he's saving up for that magical day when he turned 16 years old to buy his first vehicle he's saving up
for a Jeep and he's worked very hard at the pharmacy he's making 2.85 cents an hour he's asked his boss for a raise and
was turned down for such so he was interested in talking to Mr Gacy about that position yeah this doubles his wage
so as he's outside taking out the trash now mind you it's very cold out there he
sees the contractor pull up in the in the pickup truck he goes up to the window and he he says Hi Mr Gacy my name
is Rob PS I've worked at the pharmacy for quite some time and I heard you're looking to take on some new help well
Gacy says well I was I was watching you work and you're pretty busy hard worker I like that you know while I was there
taking my measurements and talking with the with the owner that that's the time when most of the people would kind of
screw around and you know they're not under the watchful eye of the owner so I noticed the whole time you kept you
stayed busy and you kept working so yes I would like to talk to you about working for my company
Rob tells Gacy that he should probably get back inside that he didn't want the owner catching him while on the clock
talking to the contractor about a new job so he goes back inside but before so Gacy says you know what how about I wait
for you and we can talk after you're done working and I also have to go inside and collect my appointment book
and take some more measurements anyway so Gacy goes back in says hi to the owner collects his appointment book he
you know messes around for a little bit inside the store and then he leaves the pharmacy and he sits in his truck
waiting for Rob PS well Rob PS comes out at the end of his shift he's talking to
Gacy he says he's very much interested in a position he couldn't talk much more about it that night because it was his
mother's birthday his mother was inside the pharmacy waiting to take Rob home when Gacy says you know what we should
probably hash this out tonight I can't wait around to to hire the right person so how about we talk about the job and
I'll drive you home afterwards well Rob agrees to this and inside Casey's truck John Wayne Gacy
explains to the boy that before we can hire you you know we have to fill out some paperwork we have to fill out the
appropriate tax forms these whole these forms are at my home which is it's only about 20 minutes away right and I could
drive you home after I'll have you home in about 45 minutes no thanks Rob accepts uh the offer he's hopeful to get
the new job and now they're back at John Wayne Gacy's home now at this point Gacy
is going to try to welcome the boy into his home and we know Gacy's attitude by this point he's probably talking a lot
about himself telling Rob how important he is telling Rob that he's a registered
clown sounds like somebody else I know yeah and then he offers the kid a beer telling him that here at PDM you will
learn that you don't just work hard but we play hard too and I can't just hire anyone I gotta make sure that you are a
good fit now young Rob is eager to get home but he decides that he's willing to play along and hang out with his
potential future boss and maybe even sit and enjoy a beer with him now Gacy would
walk off and he would go into the other room to collect the necessary paperwork now when he returned he had the
paperwork with him but he also had a pair of handcuffs the famous handcuffs and in a sing-songy
tone he would say I've got a trick I want to show you John Trick I want to show you John waved the Cuffs in front
of Rob's face showing him that the Cuffs are very much real John then placed the
cuff around his left wrist and with a couple of clicks the cuff was Secure around his wrist and then John placed
the open cuff around his right wrist and click click click now both cuffs are secure around Gacy's thick wrist in
front of his big beer belly he pulled the Cuffs apart and the chains tightened again he did it demonstrating
that the Cuffs are very real then Gacy lifted up both arms and he quickly turned around and almost
instantly he turned back around again facing young Rob PS but now the Cuffs were off
he had performed a real magic trick Rob says how the heck did you do that Casey says I can show you but first
check this out Casey hands the handcuffs to Rob check them out they're real Rob checks them out looking for a trick
button or some kind of release but these are real handcuffs Rob agrees these are
real handcuffs okay Gacy says I'm going to turn around and I want you to put the
cuffs on my wrist behind my back Rob put the cuffs on Gacy's wrist Gacy spins around again facing Rob again and
Gacy's out of the Cuffs wow Rob thought he's half surprised at the trick but he's also probably playing along with
his weirdo because he really wanted to get this good job all right Gacy says you want to know the trick the trick is
you have to have the key well no [ __ ] and he says this as if he's pulling the key out of thin air Gacy
holds out his hand and in it is a small handcuff key look here I'll show you how
to hide the key between your fingers so that no one can see it and I'll show you
how to slip out of the Cuffs very quickly let's start off by putting these cuffs
on you yeah yeah how about we don't Gacy secured each of the Cuffs to the boy's thin wrist John with his thick finger
starts to hand Rob the key and then he quickly pulls his hand back away from Rob
stop playing around John give me the key Rob watched an amazement and it appeared
as if Gacy's face was transforming his eyes fluttered and his pupils expanded and became dark it was as if Rob was
looking at a totally different person Rob heard Gacy's phone ring Rob looked down as he struggled with his arms
trying to get the Cuffs to budge but they wouldn't and then he hears Gacy's voice
well we better get you home let's get you out of those cuffs I was just playing around Rob looked up and there
was the old John Gacy again his big round face smiling Casey took the key and he put it in the cuffs and unlatched
them Rob tells Gacy you scared me that's some trick the two agreed to collect their things and go returning to Rob's
home but before they could walk out the front door Casey said you know let me show you one more thing you're gonna
love this Casey had a three foot piece of rope in one hand and he put picked up a wooden Hammer handle with the other
hand it's just a wooden handle though there's no hammer head on it he very quickly tied a series of knots and he
slid the wooden handle through a couple of them check this out Gacy said with excitement and he placed his Contraption
over the boy's head and around his neck Rob asked what kind of trick is this Gacy twists the handle a few times and
Rob's face instantly turns beat red Rob is choking and the handle is wedged firmly against his back right Gacy jumps
back and away from the boy Rob falls to the floor and with one hand he's trying to get his fingers under the Rope around
his neck and the other hand is twisted up behind his back as he stretches reaching trying to grab the wooden
handle Gacy laughed and jumped about the room as he watched the boy squirm the more Rob moved the more he jerked the
tighter the Rope got Rob would not survive this trick Gacy's phone rang again the first time it rang he had let
the machine get it this time Gacy answered it was Gacy's relative requesting that he go to the hospital
because Gacy's elderly uncle's Health had taken a bad turn and he was dying Gacy said he would be there in about an
hour he hung up the phone and he carried Rob's lifeless body into his bedroom he
stripped the boy and he folded the clothes and placed them in a bag he stuffed one or two pieces of cloth like
material into Rob's mouth so fluids would not leak out he went back out into the main room he looked around the room
and he saw the two beer bottles he emptied them and he threw them in the trash he grabbed Rob's parka checked the
pockets and found a receipt for film from the pharmacy where he had picked up Rob Gacy threw the receipt in the trash
and folded up the parka and placed it in the bag with the clothes he took a shower got dressed and drove to the
hospital and on the way he threw the bag with Rob's clothes in it in a Salvation
Army clothing drop box that night at 11 PM Harold PS with his wife and two children went to the Des Plaines police
department and filed the following missing persons report Robert Jerome peste male caucasian age
15 slender to medium build brown hair brown eyes tan Levi's t-shirt brown pants brown suede shoes tan parka last
seen in the area Nissan's Pharmacy well just a little PSA right if some uh sloppy guy right is telling you hey I
want to show you a little trick with some handcuffs right you say well first let me show you a Kick let me let me
show you a crane kick to the grundle yes OB that's what you do the thing here that I found interesting was that Harold
PS with his wife and the two children they went to the police department and filed the missing persons report yeah
happy happy birthday to your mother but we're talking about 1978. you know we've
covered lots of cases where we have missing boys in the late 70s early 80s and they don't really take these reports
very seriously when you call them in because a lot of times these police go to the effort to go out and look for
this person and then they find out that the kid was just out on his own doing whatever he wanted to do he was just
running late or you know decided he was going to take off but this this one's a little weird because he's leaving work
and his mom was at his work and just never made it home and I like that they went in there with the whole family you
know and they're telling the officer no this kid is missing you know Harold explains that the kid has been gone for
hours it's his wife's birthday they were celebrating Rob wouldn't have missed that and he had even called the pharmacy
to see if Rob would be there he was not he spoke to the owner and the owner said
you know that that it's possible that Rob might have talked to a contractor or something like that about a job he had
heard from the other kids well he got the phone number for the contractor and Harold had called to ask
the contractor about Rob well he ends up getting the answering machine Harold left a message on John Wayne Gacy's
answering machine very likely right around the same time that Gacy was attacking the boy but we've all been
there you know I mean we've all been there no I mean we've been all been in Rob's shoes on the idea
that you know let's say you're talking to somebody about a job oh well so just sit down and have a chat
and then you realize the conversation is not going to be about the job yeah it's
going to be and then you just sit there like okay what the hell am I still doing
here just please let me leave yeah this is is this guy looking for a friend or to hire me right yeah I also think when
you're about that age you know the the 14 to 16 17 year old boy age I think you know
you definitely get the creep Factor by certain guys you do you do um but I also think that when you see at
that age when you see a successful adult you have this opinion of them without even knowing them that there's some kind
of upstanding person um the next morning the police call John Wayne Gacy's home they speak with him
because he's at home hosting a meeting amongst other businessmen that he's you know working out some jobs or details of
an upcoming job and Gacy basically says you know I don't yeah I was at the pharmacy I was there for a job I didn't
remember talking to any boys I talked to some of the teenage girls that were there I might have maybe a boy asked me
about some shelving in the back or something like that he goes you know he he comes off like he's trying to be
helpful but he's not providing any information he's not seen the boy that they're talking about well that that
evening uh Gacy takes the body of Rob PS he loads it into a 79 Oldsmobile Delta 88 and he drives it to I to the I-55
bridge over top of the Des Plaines River okay and Gacy gets out of the vehicle he
opens up the truck he hoists the boy's body up into his arms and he tossed the body into the river the the plus size
model was good at shot put well after the officer learns the name of the contractor he decides that there's some
kind of evidence there's enough evidence after talking to people at the pharmacy
that there's a good chance that this John Wayne Gacy character probably talked to the boy and for whatever
reason he's not you know admitting to that or honest the truth or he doesn't remember doing so so he decides to run a
background check on Gacy the next day oh imagine that yeah and he was surprised to find that Gacy had served time for
committing sodomy on a teenager years earlier soon after after the Discovery Well the officer worked very hard to
obtain a search warrant for John Gacy's house it was there that he believed that
he would find Robert PS so once they get the search warrant they're going to search
the pogos Pogo the Clown's house pogo's Playhouse oh god um yeah so Gacy was not home at the time
of the search and so they conducted their investigation they went into the home and they're looking for items to
point to whether Rob he asked it was at the home or if he's still there now they
don't find Rob PS there some of the items that they found that were confiscated from Gacy's home were the
following a jewelry box containing two driver's license uh neither of them gacies they also found a couple of rings
one of them included an engravement on it and this was from the main West High School class of 1975 with the initials
j-a-s on it they found a box containing marijuana and rolling papers seven pornographic movies
pills including Valium a switchblade knife a stained section of rug color photograph crafts of pharmacies and drug
stores an address book a scale books about bi and gay Lifestyles a pair of handcuffs with keys a nylon rope a three
foot long wooden handle with two holes drilled in each end of it a small starter pistol with with gun caps
basically like like blanks they also found police badges some sex toys a hypodermic syringe and an unlabeled
small brown bottle they found clothing that was way too small for John Wayne Gacy and they found a receipt for a roll
of film with the serial number on it and this was from Nissan's Pharmacy three automobiles belonging to Gacy were also
confiscated Jesus as a baller including the pickup truck that we discussed earlier it's that plus size model money
as well as his 79 Oldsmobile and a van with PDM contractors on its side now within the trunk of the car they found
some pieces of hair I'd like to talk about the receipt that was found right you know there's so we
should assume that that was the receipt of the boys well that's that's what their thought is so they're the police
their thought is you know this comes from Nissan's Pharmacy this is where uh the boy was however Gacy was there too
so we can't prove that this receipt belonged to the boy you know Gacy could have bought film at some point at the
pharmacy so what they do is they take the receipt and they go back to the pharmacy and they start discussing this
receipt with a bunch of the employees well they talk with one employee and her name is Kim Byers she's a cashier there
she's a teenage girl well Rob PS was was a pretty popular kid I mean he was very
well liked by everyone he was good looking kid uh I think he you know he was he was a kid that the the the girls
kind of chased at high school sounds a little bit like the colonel nothing like the curdle anyway they're talking to
these different employees and this Kim buyer says you know what that night was a particularly cold night and the door
here I'm you know the cashier's up by the door usually and every time the door would open all that cold air would rush
in so Rob being a nice guy he offers to let her borrow his parka his jacket that's a gentleman yeah he's a gentleman
that's how it's done instead of standing up here and shivering your butt off you
know here wear this parka and you'll be warm for the evening let me keep your butt warm is what he said well Kim Byers
she had a bit of a crush on Rob so she had purchased some film from Nissan's Pharmacy and she purposely put the
receipt in the jacket pocket because she thought you know what he'll find the receipt he'll know that I left it in
there by quote unquote mistake and he'll he'll come in yeah he'll come and talk to me and maybe that's a smart move and
maybe he'll ask me about the film maybe he'll ask me you know what what am I am I into photography or whatever and so
it's you want me to take your picture it's there that the police learn that there is no way that that receipt could
have ended up in Gacy's home unless Rob PS and his parka were at Casey's home at
some point that evening which this is going to give him probable cause to do another search maybe a more in-depth
search and also so let's get to that and let's get to the surveillance of John Wayne Gacy right after this quick beer
break [Music] all right we're back big cheers to Dom over in England driving the bus cheers
to you mate John Wayne Gacy was called into the police department and he was told of the
articles that they had confiscated now Gacy was enraged and he immediately contacted his lawyer the police
basically had nothing to arrest him on and they eventually had to release him after some more questioning about the PS
boy's disappearance Gacy was put under 24-hour surveillance and if anybody knows anything about this 24-hour
surveillance that John Wayne Gacy was on uh it's it's I hate to make light of it
of a terrible situation but it's the stuff that it's a comedy to me right Captain I mean I don't know what
you're talking about Gacy would he would he would purposely you know drive fast so he could lose them he knew he knew he
was under surveillance um he would he would lose them and uh there were other times where he would tell them you know
I know you guys are having trouble keeping up with me so if if you if you can't keep up I'll be at this place in a
half an hour just meet me there and then he would drive off and lose him and sure
enough he would be where he said he was going to be a half an hour later one of the times that he lost that he lost them
uh they called the the airport because they were worried that Gacy would fly out of the country and leave this
situation that's going on because by this point you know they're convinced that they're going to find the PS boy
either at his home somewhere or that he had done something with the boy now they
they call the airport and put put his name on some kind of list and it turns out they find him he's two blocks away
from his house he's he's looking at Christmas trees at a lot somewhere right you know and there was once nothing was
happening one situation the the police car breaks down and these are unmarked police cars but the police car breaks
down and Gacy stops his vehicle he gets out and he goes up to the officers and he says you know what's the problem with
the car and since the car broke down he said okay well uh since you know why don't I just give you guys a lift you
can ride with me uh for the remainder of the day until you get a new car right what's fascinating to me is you're under
surveillance uh for this missing teenage boy and the cops at this point are probably assuming that this teenage boy
is dead and and you're just going about your business you know just buying Christmas
trees yeah nothing's happening yeah and the other thing that's going on here remember we talked about that one ring
that was found in Gacy's home and they end up believing it had the initials j-a-s on it they believed that the the
ring could have belonged to a guy by the name of John sick this is something we talked about yesterday
um the situation here is they also discovered that three former employees of gacies have also mysteriously
disappeared now the problem with this situation is these cases were reported in Chicago
they weren't reported to the Des Plaines Police Department remember the PS family
went to the Des Plaines Police Department to to let them know that Rob was missing right and it wasn't until
then that A Des Plains police officer ran a background check that out three times fast yeah I couldn't I couldn't
say it once um they run the background check and they see that Gacy you know he has this
sodomy charge had the Chicago Police ran his background check with these other missing people and some of these cases
they it was believed the last person who had seen them was Gacy uh we might have
been able to cut this list a little shorter so they don't have the evidence but now
they think that Gacy could be responsible for the murder of anywhere between one to four persons
the thing here is after they searched his home they called in some of his friends now these were I say friends but
they're also people that worked for John Wayne Gacy and two of the people that they talked to and we mentioned these
names yesterday is David cram and Mike Rossi remember we had the discussion we wondered if they were the same person
just using different names you know sometimes when they tell these stories they make up fake names to for potential
victims to to hide their ideas but the jury's out and they are they're different people all right and the
reason why the reason why I got confused was they had similar stories they both worked for John Wayne Gacy they both
told police that at one time or another they had done projects for Gacy at his home and this included digging trenches
in the crawl space as well as lifting up floorboards and digging trenches under there uh they had also glad the colonel
figured it all out they had also poured concrete for him remember Michael Rossi was the boy that
was driving the missing guy's vehicle right um and David cram now David cram he was
with John Wayne Gacy the night that Gacy returned to his home after the first search was conducted and he walked room
to room with John Wayne Gacy as he inspected the things that the the police may have taken and what they looked
through right and during this interrogation process with the police David cram tells them that Gacy the
first place he went to in the home after you guys searched it was the crawl space
where I had dug those trenches before right so at some point we need to check that crawl space yeah that's exactly
what the police want to do they want to get in that crawl space they they didn't
dig around in there the first time now the police also make a lot of statements about saying like you were saying John
Wayne Gacy's giving us rides you know our car is breaking down and he would just kind of stop by and
talk to us and I think he even took him out to dinner and and then a few odd things like that and the police had to
keep reminding themselves like yeah this guy's a very Charming guy and he seems like on the surface just
completely Innocent but there's all these there's all this evidence leading to the fact that he's not so they had to
keep her mind in themselves and we're police officers you know we have to keep doing our job yeah and the police now
they're becoming frustrated because this surveillance that they're conducting they're kind of looking like like fools
in this whole situation because it's it's like I said it's comical um so talk about the fish dinner right
so do you know much about this I I know just a little bit about it you're talking about when he invites the the
guys the officers that are surveilling him right there's right they're out front of his house yeah and he's at this
point he he knows he's under surveillance he's already talked to the cops multiple times
but he cooks on the fish dinner right so they're like okay well we'll go in the house now this is after they searched
already right but as they're eating the fish dinner because you know the fish has you know
an odor odor I think because there was a secondary odor it really Drew their attention to the odor in the house yeah
and and as they're eating this fish dinner they're going something stinks in here yeah and it's
not the fish yeah and I think one of the officers said that it wasn't something that they outwardly noticed immediately
but it was one of those situations where as the longer they sat in the home every
time the furnace would kick on and start blowing that hot air around that they would notice this this foul stench yeah
this funk so the police they are frustrated due to the lack of evidence uh that they've
collected regarding The Disappearance of Robert PS they decide to arrest Gacy on
possession of marijuana and Valium uh during this time during this arrest now Gacy is awaiting action on some other
charges remember yesterday we talked about Jeff ringnall now this guy he is the one that was abducted by Gacy and he
went and he he went to the area that he was taken from and he was looking for the vehicle that that he had gotten into
right and he found the vehicle and he wrote down the license plate well he took that plate to the the police and
once he got there John Wayne Gacy's name from them he filed sexual assault charges against good for him so at this
time unbeknownst to the investigators we have this this other charge this sexual
assault charge right so they they have him in custody and they're going to keep doing more searches but then what comes
from that well they they're also interrogating Gacy at this point and he's already lawyered up what the cops
don't know is that Gacy has already confessed to his attorneys okay well the attorneys think that he's suicidal
because during these confessions he's telling his attorneys you know for many years I've been the judge jury and
executioner of many and I'm going to be the judge jury and executioner of myself
okay so the attorneys believe him to be suicidal and they want to put him in the
hospital this ends up leading to more police interrogations with Mr Gacy during these interrogations Gacy starts
confessing to murder he does state that he had killed someone but it had in fact
been in self-defense of course and that he had buried the body underneath the the garage
well they've not started digging yet uh but this guy still wants to talk and he starts telling them you know
this is something that's happened more than once um I've I've and they start really
digging on them now because he he they suspect him of as many as four that's all they were expecting to hear about
was four and at some point only that's a lot he starts saying well he starts saying it's probably more like 30 people
Jesus uh and he states that he buried most of the remains in the victim of the victims beneath the crawl space of his
home uh I want to take you through these confessions here a little bit okay all right
um the first confession it takes place he says that this took place in uh 71 or 72. well it's a little strange though
that you showed up to the garage today full clown makeup that's my normal get up nowadays
um he he says that this murder took place in 71 or 72 I believe it was in in the month of January he said that he
picked up a boy at a bus station and they decided to drive around smoke some pot they were going to go back to his
place eat some food you know have lots of drinks and he had he had a couple magic
tricks to show them and and just party and he said that they then engaged in consensual sex
he says that he woke up the next morning to find the boy the young man standing in the doorway of his bedroom holding a
knife that the guy had taken from Gacy's kitchen he says that the guy tries to attack Casey and Gacy defending himself
gets the knife from the guy and he stabbed him several times killing the guy this is the guy that he buried in
the garage well not a guy it was a boy okay the other situation is he starts talking
about remember we had uh butkovic his his employee old butkovic well remember they had the dispute about the money
um he tells a story that he decides to when when buckovitch and his buddies come over to try to collect the money
that he said you know what I'll pay you as soon as I can uh we ain't got nothing
to do why don't we you know drink some booze some beers hang out and party he said they partied all night long and
he's not sure what happened but when he woke up the next morning there was a dead boy YOLO with Pogo on his floor
so he had to get rid of it mm-hmm this is yeah um odd stories from John Wayne Gacy
yeah so those are his stories about why they might find some dead bodies in his home on the first day that the police
begin their digging they find two bodies one of the bodies is that of John buckovich who was buried underneath the
garage I believe in this situation Gacy even like put an x on the floor and said
you know dig here right um he was going to kind of lead them to some of the bodies the other body that
they found was in the crawl space as the days passed the body count grew higher some of the victims were found in with
their underwear still stuffed lodged deep in their throats other victims were buried so close together that the police
believed that they were probably killed or buried at the same time the police had removed a total of 27 bodies from
Gacy's home Jesus they also started finding bodies in the Des Plaines River four in total one of the bodies found in
the river well they could easily link that body to Gacy because that man's identification was one of the IDS found
in Casey's home right right right one of the victims found in the river was unidentified but he had Tim Lee tattooed
on one of his arms a friend of the victim's father had recognized the Tim Lee tattoo while reading a newspaper
story about the discovery of the body in the river the victim's name was Timothy
O'Rourke now he was such a fan of Bruce Lee that he took Lee's last name and he added it to his first name to make the
tattoo on his own oh so it was just a really bad idea for a tattoo but glad that they identified him soon after
the discovery of all these bodies the house was destroyed it was basically reduced to Rebel unfortunately among the
32 bodies that were discovered that of Robert PS was still unaccounted for PS was still missing finally in April of
1970 the remains of Robert PS were discovered in the Illinois River his body had been lodged somewhere along the
river making it difficult to find this body and at some point it must have become dislodged and carried the corpse
to The Dresden Dam where it was eventually discovered go with me on this Theory though okay so the first guy he
talks about we already know about the guy that he picked up in Chicago right the one that he he raped
the guy that got away the guy that got away now think about Gacy's first story there's some things that make sense here
yeah it picked up a boy he sexually assaulted him you raped him he wasn't dead and when that boy comes too
that boy grabbed a knife and decided he's going to kill the bastard that did this to him I see I see
what you're saying there's there might be some truth to what went down and actually one of the bodies that was
found uh in his home they believed that now keep in mind a lot of these people are very decomposed by the time they
find them but this person had uh evidence of having been stabbed to death you know where you have the the markings
on the ribs uh from the from the knife yeah so I mean maybe there's some validity there I would suspect myself
that John Wayne Gacy probably killed in Iowa um it's it's possible um the other thing here too is when Gacy
was confessing he said that you know I killed about 30 people he he estimated that there might be about 30 people in
his home that they would find and he said that I threw the last five bodies in the river well they only ever
recovered four four bodies um you know and then we know how many they found at his home but there still
could be that missing victim out there from when he was in Chicago police have a lot of bodies to work with
here and they're going to start using dental records and other Clues to help identify the victims who were found on
Gacy's property all but nine of the victims were finally identified you know there's still a lot of people yeah and
even though their searches had ended we have a trial to deal with regarding John
Wayne Gacy in February of 1980 Gacy's murder trial began in Cook County Illinois jury members consisted of five
women and seven men there was a change of venue requested and what ended up happening was they did not Grant the
change of venue instead the judge decided that he would select jurors from another city and have them bust in very
odd it's just like Casey Anthony yeah that was one of the weird coincidences that we came across and he chose the the
City of Rockford which another coincidence was 90 miles away almost the exact same distance as chosen in the
Casey Anthony case the defense is going to say that John Wayne Gacy Is Not Guilty by reason of
insanity three psychiatric experts appearing for the defense at Gacy's trial testified that they found Gacy to
be a paranoid schizophrenic with multiple personality disorder I want to talk about this for a little bit because
during some of his confessions Gacy kept bringing up another name and this name was Jack Handley he said that Jack
Hanley had committed some of the murders and he even gave a full personality profile of Mr Jack Hanley now but it was
very clear to the people that he was talking with that Gacy was talking about himself Jack Hanley is himself Jack
Hanley is another version of John Wayne Gacy during the opening statements they presented evidence by the prosecution
that left a stunning impression on the jurors and the courtroom Spectators many of them them saying that they had
learned some of the details of Gacy's killings for the very first time Gacy's defense lawyers stated that Gacy's
actions were irrational and impulsive and that he was insane and no longer in control of his conduct
the prosecution brought its first witness to the stand this is Marco bukovic the father of John bukovic he
was the first witness of many that included the family and friends of the murdered victims some of the
eyewitnesses broke down into tears on the bench following the friends and family of the victims came the testimony
of those who worked for Gacy who survived strange sexual encounters with him uh with their boss some of his
ex-employees told of his mood swings and how he would trick them into being handcuffed others told how he constantly
made passes at them while he was at work and in typical fashion the prosecution is going to come out and say well we
found him to be sane yes his their experts say that John Wayne Gacy is a sane man
very much to the surprise of everyone in the courtroom when the defense started their case the first witness that they
called was Jeff rignall remember this was the person that was abducted by John Wayne Gacy right it was expected that he
would have been called to testify on behalf of the prosecution however uh rignal had previously mentioned his
encounter with Gacy in a book and the prosecution believed that it would damage their case if they took him on as
a witness so they didn't call him Casey's defense asked rignal while on the stand if he thought that Gacy was
able to control himself and Jeff did not believe so considering the savagery savagery of Gacy's attack right right
right testimony but you know John Wayne Gates he talks about this later in life too that if you're gonna say that
somebody like for somebody to do what he did if you're going to try to say that that's sane
then you don't want to be on the same side of the fence as that person yeah and and I and I think there's some
validity to that I mean if you're capable of murdering this many people and burying them in your crawl space
you're crazy you know what I mean so but the the problem with our our our system
is that we we make that lenient if the person was insane and it should not be it should be no we we do think you're
crazy but you know you're going away forever well and what the prosecution was trying to
do was they were trying to point out the clear difference to the jury between the
difference of being abnormal and and insane you know they're saying Gacy is not your normal dude uh but he's not I
think he's not legally right right insane we must hold him accountable for his actions
um now Jeff rignall he did not test his testimony did not last very long because
while on the stand he broke down while telling the court the details of his rape uh rignal was so stressed out that
he began to vomit and cry hysterically and he was eventually removed from the courtroom now in an effort to prove
Gacy's Insanity friends and family of gacies were called to the Stan Gacy's mother told how her husband abused Gacy
on several occasions at one time whipping him with a leather strap yeah that's a razor the razor belt we talked
about and Gacy sisters told a similar story of how she repeatedly witnessed her brother being verbally abused by
their father yeah but that's that's no excuse you know you become 18 years old you're
responsible for your actions well after the court proceedings were over uh it only took two hours of
deliberation for the jury to come back with its verdict they found John well that's after one hour of eating in one
hour of a coffee break they found John Wayne Gacy guilty Gacy was found guilty in the deaths of 33 young men and as one
of the people in the court stated that he had the singular notoriety of having been convicted of more murders than
anyone else in American history and Gacy received the death penalty right and it's strange to me uh you talk about a
mom being an enabler which we talked about like Casey Anthony case John Wayne Gacy's mom still never
believed that he was guilty of the crimes right um and I wonder how much of that is that
she believes that her son was insane okay you know that he was not guilty by reason of insanity well diving into the
sick twisted mind of uh John Wayne Gacy we we actually when we had an apartment together we
actually remember those documentaries they started coming out with not documentaries but reenactments I guess
yeah they would do a movie of like a serial killer that yeah Dahmer and I think we watched Dahmer together and I
think we watched and I think we watched uh Gacy together too did Gacy had the the the big guy that played in um Peewee
Herman's Playhouse yeah he was uh uh Buxton I can't remember his first name but uh Francis Buxton yeah the guy
that's paid to have the bicycle stolen and yeah he was also the the he played center for the basketball team on Teen
Wolf oh yeah great movie wonderful movie but great actor though underrated because if you watch that I I would
recommend it as far as entertainment if you if you're into this thing and you kind of want to get a glimpse into maybe
what some of the visual of you know with the Pogo the clown and all that stuff it
was an interesting movie and I think he did a great job you know uh Francis did a great job acting the part uh it's not
very factual I actually re-watched it why you know I'm preparing for the show okay it's not that factual there's a lot
of stuff that they kind of Miss on yeah um and I think that you know Hollywood it up but it is we I think we watched
that when we had an apartment together but something that I thought was really interesting
going back over this and something that I've kind of never thought about too much or never really made my ears perk
up is this idea that you know normally it's like okay John Wayne Gacy saying well
okay so ah there was this other guy and we started thinking that well maybe that's
split personality but when he starts talking later in life before you know his death he's going to
start talking about other people involved yeah and other accomplices and every time that he's like talked about
it in the past I never really put much weight into that yeah during the 80s during his time in
prison he starts bringing up you know that there were other people that helped me with these killings you know there
there were two or I think it sometimes he's he's quoted as saying there are two people that helped him uh other times I
believe he said as many as three people and I think I think the total no I think
uh one of the interviews I watched he said four okay and during that interview he actually named names now again never
put much weight to this until you know one of the accusers talks about that well it wasn't just John
Wayne Gacy there was another guy there yeah Jeff rignall uh he was the one that was abducted and got away and he would
later state that he believed that there was another man present at Gacy's home that night that he was attacked right
which starts making you think well there's some validity and if you listen to the trailer we we talked about how
police work saying well we're denying that we're looking for accomplices but there seems to be like there was some
evidence to point that there might have been during some of the attacks and I would just argue to say this is a guy
that was throwing these huge parties watching these stag films and also these big parties
where they're doing you know orgies and I'm I'm there obviously there's a big stretch from going to that to having
somebody be accomplished of murder but I'm just saying what kind of what kind of people what kind of sick
people was he running with and I think we should play this news clip because I think it will explain the situation in
better detail than what we can [Music] thank you Larry he was known as the Killer Clown
John Wayne Gacy murdered 33 young men and was executed in 1993 but we're learning the Gacy story may not be over
new details of the investigation have only recently come to light and may show Gacy didn't act alone
33 years after his arrest there are still lingering questions about John Wayne Gacy Terry Sullivan was on the
prosecution team I felt that from the beginning that that there may be loose ends it was such a huge case that
especially at the time the idea of a Gacy accomplice was raised from the beginning by Jeffrey rignall he is one
of a few people who survived Gacy's attack he said another man was at Gacy's home the night Gacy raped him
attorneys Robert Stevenson and Steve Becker have been trying to help families of victims find answers they've been
getting tips from the public and they've uncovered information that they say shows someone else may have been
involved in some of the killings there is significant evidence out there that suggests that not only did John Wayne
Gacy not operate alone may not have been involved in some of the murders and the
fact that he was largely a copycat killer for this story we're focusing on two of Gacy's victims Russell Nelson and
Robert Gilroy September 15 1977 Gilroy sends a letter to his girlfriend from a mailbox not far from
Gacy's home then at 6 PM that same day Gilroy is supposed to meet other kids at a bus stop for a trip to equestrian
school but he never shows up he was never seen again but according to Gacy's receipts in
court records Gacy's plane ticket shows he flew to Pennsylvania September 12th and didn't return until the night of the
16th the day after Gilroy was last seen alive could someone have been helping Casey
listen to this recording of a phone conversation between Gacy in prison and a friend in Chicago well I wasn't even
in Illinois with 16 of these so-called individuals disappeared a month later October 1977 Russell Nelson disappears
according to testimony from his mother Russell went to a disco on North Broadway with a friend who was several
years older the friend called the family to say Nelson just disappeared outside the Disco and that he would look for him
if they'd send money he called me two or three times a week and threatened me for
money he said he was staying down here to look for my son Russell Nelson's Brothers went to
Chicago to look for Russell and met with the friend who was asking their mother to send money to help search for Russell
the friend offered Russell's Brothers a job with John Wayne Gacy Russell Nelson's sister-in-law recently told us
the family is anxious for answers I would like to have a review Justice for what they have done to him
or it could have been somebody else out there and another possible connection to
Gacy it turns out a few months before Russell Nelson disappeared Gacy did work at a drugstore just blocks from where
the friend lived I think it tells us that John Wayne Gacy was using other individuals to procure young boys over
state lines according to Becker and Stevenson the friend is still alive and now living in another state if in fact
Casey had other accomplices or people who knew something that was going on now those people should be be brought to
Justice it's scary in and of itself that there may be others out there there's something else mysterious about the
cases of Robert Gilroy and Russell Nelson while Gacy was known to use a rope and board to strangle his victims
the autopsy reports were Gilroy and Nelson show they died from asphyxiation from Suffocation not strangulation the
report says that each had cloth in their mouths foreign in fact 13 victims were listed as
Suffocation another serial killer case may offer insight to Gacy's mode of operation and Terry Sullivan's book
Killer Clown a detective asked Casey where he got the idea for the torture board Gacy replies from Elmer Wayne
Henley Henley and another boy helped serial killer Dean Coral whose case has a lot of similarities with Casey Coral
abducted raped tortured and murdered 28 boys mostly teenagers in the early 1970s
in Houston he often used handcuffs and strangled his victims they do follow Coral's mode of operation almost
identically and one of the most significant Parts about coral is that he used two much younger individuals to
assist him in gathering up and luring in his victims nothing as far as killing or
recruiting or bringing we we had no evidence in it we thought about it but we just never saw any evidence Gacy's
defense lawyer Sam Amarante says he doesn't believe any of it he says Gacy confessed to everything early on and
after years in prison began to change his story I used to talk to Gacy about maybe somebody else committed the
offense maybe Gacy was in some sort of stupor drug state or alcohol State and didn't know what was going on around him
and we sort of would plant a seed and John's brain as to what happened he was kind of saying you know
maybe you know maybe you're right maybe that's really what happened Becker and Stevenson will be taking their case to
law enforcement these individuals did end up in Casey's crawl space so we're just looking to find out the the whole
truth about these cases and we followed these leads to this point if these individuals were waking working with
John Wayne Gacy to procure young boys they should be held to Justice the school open the Gacy case is as complex
as it is disturbing and after three decades there are still questions that haunt investigators as well as the
families of victims still looking for answers [Music] all right thank you Larry so what do you think about everything
that they were reporting on there regarding these the you know the two victims that they talked about you know
Gacy might have been gone during one of the you know off in Pennsylvania yeah I don't know how much
you know I got a plane ticket so that proves I was here nah you don't have anybody that saw you not only that he
could have the boy could have ended up at his house the next day once he got home yeah the the reason why I feel that
there is some validity to this is one they investigated it the prosecution thought there there was maybe some ties
and the fact that there was you know a victim that talked about it and and so that makes it to me a lot more
like a situation with like the Johnny gosh type thing where it's like well here's this guy that was predominant and
and trying to raise his social status and he was around people that had social status
and was there some kind of weird sex ring going on I don't know I I think there is some
evidence to to show that well and I'll tell you what I'm going to kind of present the thing from both sides of the
fence here on on the potential case that there was an accomplice or accomplices um the thing is we have a couple guys
that work for John Wayne Gacy that knew he was a weirdo they said you know he tricked me into handcuffs and he came on
to me and he did all this weird stuff he would have these weird parties but I also even though I knew the guy was a
weirdo I I per you know I did work at his house uh digging trenches and lifting floorboards and and these
different projects and I did it without asking any questions um that does seem a little weird to me
could they have been rounding up people off of the streets for Gacy and he's he's paying them you know 200 bucks a
person or or or something of that nature possibility um right so then by saying well I dug
ditches and stuff you're implementing yourself less yeah yeah and I and I don't want to and now I'm going to talk
about it from the flip side here I don't want to discredit any victim you know this this Jeff guy he was he was
abducted he was taken to Casey's home he thankfully gets away uh he's the one that says he saw another man there uh
but let's keep in mind Jeff was blacking out he was going in and out of Consciousness this entire period is
there a chance that he is misremembering that he doesn't he doesn't fully understand everything that he thought
that he saw during the situation yeah it's possible we also talked about there were several people that said that you
know once Gacy got you in the handcuffs that he almost he he turned into a different person almost like he was
possessed to the point where he even slightly looked different where where they didn't even recognize him
um Jack Hanley yeah well but here's the verdict on that though right John Wayne Gacy Jack Hanley one in
the same both douche canoes yeah so that's one full canoe right there that is um the thing is too heavy the the other
thing is with Gacy we see at the very beginning his defense attorneys now I gotta point this out because this is a
strange situation his defense attorney uh was a private well not a private he was a public defender for several years
this is the colonel and he decided to go into private practice well unfortunate for him his first client was John Wayne
Gacy can you imagine can you imagine that situation but the situation is this you know when his attorney tells Gacy
says you know what you've got to be insane to do this and we're we're going to recommend that we we state that
you're not guilty by the reason of insanity I believe Gacy ran with that he's like oh yeah that's a good idea I
didn't think of that oh remember my good friend Jack Hanley who who did a lot of
these murders so it seems to me like we have a situation here where somebody might have presented some info
information to Gacy and he's saying well I've been stuck in prison for a while my
execution date is Drawing Near how about I get creative like Mr Ted Bundy and you
know Kim Bundy started confessing to things towards the end what if Gacy thought well I can concoct some stories
and buy me some time right yeah again the reason why I have some validity or why I feel there's some validity to it
is one the prosecution thought that it was possible and the victim and this is going to bring us up to
um his execution yes on May 10 1994 John Wayne Gacy was executed at Statesville Correctional Center in Crest Hill
Illinois by lethal injection his last meal consisted of a dozen deep fried shrimp a bucket of original recipe
chicken from KFC a pound of fresh strawberries and french fries now I'm guessing here Captain what actually
happened is he that's probably what he requested he probably got some fried chicken from the prison kitchen
uh his execution was a minor media sensation there were large crowds of people gathered for the execution party
outside of the penitentiary there were several arrests during those execution parties for public intoxication open
container violations and disorderly conduct vendors sold Gacy related t-shirts and
other merchandise and the crowd cheered at the moment when Gacy was pronounced dead
according to reports Gacy did not express any remorse his last words to his lawyer and his cell were something
to the effect that killing him would not bring anyone back it has also reported that his last words were kiss my ass uh
which which is not really what he said while he was you know lying there waiting to
die can you imagine you're the prison guard you're going up and going well we got
poke you yeah and and I kissed my ass they say those are his last words but you know he didn't actually give a final
statement but those were his last words in the sense that when he was being led to the execution chamber he looked at
one of the correctional officers and said kiss my ass I uh kiss my ass well worse than that
several of Gacy's victims that were found buried in his home still to this day have not been identified right and
that's that's a tragedy yeah and we have a situation where I believe that uh within the last 10 years or so they did
identify one of those unidentified victims um there was a situation in 2013 where
there was a man that was always believed to have been murdered by John Wayne Gacy
but he was found living in Montana um so that made him the fifth potential victim found alive in the past two years
between 2011 and 2013. the investigators tracked him down this was after um basically what happened with him was
he the last time his family spoke to him he had stated that he was going to be hitchhiking from New York City out to
California and they thought because they had never heard from their son for all these years that he may have been
passing through Chicago and got picked up by Gacy somehow unfortunately for the family they were they believed him to be
a victim for quite some time but found that he was living in Montana all these years later and he did reunite with his
father unfortunately his mother passed away believing he was a victim right but he didn't he just didn't like his family
anymore he just yeah he he decided to leave town and he never you know reconnected with his family he he
actually didn't even know that he was considered to be a victim of John Wayne Gacy well I want to personally thank you
kernel for uh sharing the stories that will give me nightmares about Pogo and John Wayne Gacy do we have any
recommended reading for the week we do this week we're recommending John Wayne Gacy defending a monster by Sam Amarante
and now Sam is the public defender that turned into his private practice and he became John Wayne Gacy's attorney and he
wrote this many years later but I'll give you a little a little clip here um he answered the phone one day Sam did
and he heard Sam could you do me a favor this is how the story began of what now
has become part of America's True Crime Hall of Fame it's a gory grotesque tale it's almost like a Stephen King novel
and I'll tell you what one thing that I find that's hard to find in the True Crime genre you know so many of these
books are written by former detectives or former FBI they're not true authors they're not true storytellers uh Sam it
would you would think would fall into that category having been a lawyer and then going on to become a judge however
this story it really it reads like a Truman Capote book you know where it reads more like a novel more like like a
story so I highly recommend John Wayne Gacy defending a monster and you can pick that up by going to our website
truecrimegarage.com and click on the Amazon Banner thanks to everybody for listening thanks for the five star
reviews and thank you for telling a friend about the show and we hope to see all of you back here in the garage next
week for another episode and until then be good be kind and don't live foreign [Music]
[Applause] [Music]

John Wayne Gacy /// Part 2 /// 106

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

John Wayne Gacy was liked by most who knew him. He was a sharp businessman who had spent his time building up his contracting company, hosting elaborate parties, and entertaining children at hospitals. People thought of him as a generous, friendly, and hard-working man. However, there was another side that few had ever witnessed... Or at least lived to tell about. For several years John Wayne Gacy viciously tortured, raped and murdered more than thirty young men, who would later be discovered in his home and in the local river. This is the story of a community leader who was called the most hated man in America. He also has earned the name "the killer clown."

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Brief Summary

John Wayne Gacy's chilling murders of 33 young men and the subsequent investigation and trial are detailed in this episode.

Key points

The Case of John Wayne Gacy. Exploring the chilling story of John Wayne Gacy, a notorious serial killer.
Rob's Fateful Encounter. 15-year-old Rob Pieste meets Gacy, leading to a tragic turn of events.
The Handcuff Trick. Gacy's sinister magic trick with handcuffs reveals his true nature.
Gacy's Home Search. Police find disturbing items in Gacy's home, including drugs, handcuffs, and a receipt linked to a missing boy.
Confessions of a Killer. Gacy confesses to multiple murders, claiming self-defense in some cases, and hints at a much higher body count.
Gacy's Trial Begins. In February 1980, John Wayne Gacy's murder trial commenced, featuring a jury of five women and seven men.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Can't make that up, people, that's real news.

5:55WatchDec 8, 2022

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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