John Wayne Gacy /// Part 2 /// 106 | Forensic Files

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[Music] [Applause] % [Applause] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that all week he's been calling me the colonel well he
is the captain well thanks Colonel it's good to be seen and it's good to to see you mhm smell like chicken well it's
shake and [Music] bake tonight we are drinking mother's Brewing company's mil out of Springfield
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social media Snapchat Twitter Instagram Facebook all that stuff @ True Crime garage all right everybody punch a clown
and grab a chair and grab a beer let's talk some true crime thank you [Music] Colonel this is true crime garage and
this is the case of John Wayne [Music] gasy the Cook County States attorney's office
tonight denying reports that there is an investigation underway to find an accomplice to the murders of those 27
people their bodies found at the home of John gasy those reports are being spurred by statements of Jeff rigol who
says gasy drugged and sexually molested him at the gasy home gasy himself scheduled appear tomorrow in court to
face the charges in connection with the rignall case but it's doubtful that he will be in court the ramifications of
the mass murder tonight continue to spread even the people totally unrelated to gasy his house or those he had
dealings with the sad effects now reaching into Chicago's community of clowns for hundreds of people in the
Chicago area who use the grease paint costumes and antics of a clown this picture in the Chicago Tribune came as a
shock it was a publicity picture John gasy used in his sometime role as an entertainer of children now clown
organizations say their image has has been damaged with guilt by association these are members of the
clown Guild of Metropolitan Chicago better known by such names as Snappy happy wacko ho ho and me too pictures
show them in action doing what they love making youngsters laugh even a tiny smile will make their day sometimes they
are paid for their work often they perform at no charge for charity but now the first question people ask is did
they know and work with joh gasey we have checked the National Organization which is clowns of America the Shriner
organization a number of the organizations within the Chicago area and after checking with these people we
found that he is not now nor has ever been a member or associated with any of these organizations within this area the
public might be wondering how they can avoid a person with questionable character coming out to a party what
would be some of the ways that you could guarantee um the type of people that you're coming out with would be
reputable I believe the main thing would be to uh if they're going to get a clown
is to get an organization such as the Vagabond clowns or clowns metropolitan Chicago nairomi clown troop an
organization that has a number of members and that way they can pick from those members the clown Guild wanted
their story told not because they fear economic loss but because of the apprehension they sense from the public
and tonight they offer insight into John gasy by analyzing the way he put on his
clown makeup they say the lines forming his mouth are not rounded but pointed giving a harsh mean look only a true
clown could notice [Music] that all right can't make that up people that's real news let's start off by telling a
story that takes place December 11th 1978 in Dez Plains Illinois at a little place called Nissan's Pharmacy John
Wayne gasey is there and he's busy writing up a proposal he has met with the owner to do some remodeling at the
pharmacy he's taking measurements and shooting the [ __ ] with the owner and while he's there he also talks to a
handful of the employees most of them being young teenagers most of the people he speaks with are young females uh
after the appointment John gasy goes home on the way home he realizes that he forgot his appointment book at the
pharmacy he had he had another appointment that night so it was important that he retrieve that book as
soon as possible mhm once he got home he left his black Oldsmobile there and he hopped in his pickup truck this is the
one with the snow plow on the front of it and he drove back to the pharmacy and he was thinking that maybe it wouldn't
be a complete waste of a trip if he somehow picked up a you know a plow job while he was out you know keep in mind
this is winter in Illinois mhm while he is there he when he pulls up he bumps into a young man this is 15-year-old
Robert pest now Rob had seen John Wayne gasy at the pharmacy earlier that day and he had overheard John talking to
some of the pharmacy employees telling them that he was looking to hire new help and that he started off his
employees at $5 an hour that's $5 an hour for part-time workers now Rob PS at the time he's 15 years old saving up for
that magical day when he turned 16 years old to buy his first vehicle he's saving
up for a Jeep and he's worked very hard at the pharmacy he's making $2.85 an hour he's asked his boss for a
raise and was turned down for such so he was interested in talking to Mr gayy about that position yeah this doubles
his wage so as he's outside taking out the trash now mind you it's very cold out there he sees the contractor pull up
in the in the pickup truck he goes up to the window and he says Hi Mr gasy my name is Rob pest I've worked at the
pharmacy for quite some time and I heard you're looking to take on some new help
well gasy says well I was I was watching you work and you're pretty busy hard worker I like that you know while I was
there taking my measurements and talking with the with the owner that that's the
time when most of the people would kind of screw around and you know they're not
under the watchful eye of the owner so I noticed the whole time you kept you stayed busy and you kept working so yes
I would like to talk to you about working for my company Rob tells gasy that he should probably get back inside
that he didn't want the owner catching him while on the clock talking to the contractor about a new job so he goes
back inside but before so gasy says you know what how about I wait for you and we can talk after you're done working
and I also have to go inside and collect my appointment book and take some more measurements anyway m so gasy goes back
in says hi to the owner collects his appointment book he you know messes around for a little bit inside the store
and then he leaves the pharmacy and he sits in his truck waiting for Rob pest Rob piest comes out at the end of his
shift he's talking to gasy he says he's very much interested in a position um he
couldn't talk much more about it that night because it was his mother's birthday his mother was inside the
pharmacy waiting to take Rob home well gasy says you know what we should probably hash this out tonight I can't
wait around to to hire the right person so how about we talk about the job and I'll drive you home afterwards well Rob
agrees to this and inside gas's truck John Wayne gasy explains to the boy that before we can hire you you know we have
to fill out some paperwork we have to fill out the appropriate tax forms these these forms are at my home which it's
it's only about 20 minutes away right and I could drive you home after I'll have you home in about 45 minutes no
thanks Rob accepts uh the offer he's hopeful to get the new job mhm and now they're back at John Wayne gas's home
now at this point gasy is going to try to welcome the boy into his home and we know Gay's attitude by this point he's
probably talking a lot about himself telling Rob how important he is telling Rob that he's a registered clown sounds
like somebody else I know yeah and then offers the kid a beer telling him that here at PDM you will learn that you
don't just work hard but we play hard too and I can't just hire anyone I got to make sure that you are a good fit now
young Rob is eager to get home but he decides that he's willing to play along and hang out with his potential future
boss and maybe even sit and enjoy a beer with him mhm now gasy would walk off and
he would go into the other room to collect the necessary paperwork now when he returned he had the paperwork with
him but he also had a pair of handcuffs all right the famous handcuffs and in a sing songy tone he would say I've got a
trick I want to show you a trick I want to show you John waved the Cuffs in front of Rob's face showing him that the
Cuffs are very much real John then placed the cuff around his left wrist and with a couple of clicks the cuff was
secure around his wrist and then John placed the open cuff around his right wrist and click click click now both
cuffs are secure around gas's thick wrist in front of his big beer belly mhm he pulled the Cuffs apart and the chains
tightened again he did it demonstrating that the Cuffs are very real then gasy lifted up both arms and he quickly
turned around and almost instantly he turned back around again facing young Rob pest but now the Cuffs were off he
had performed a real magic trick Rob says how the heck did you do that Casey says I can show you but first check this
out gy hands the handcuffs to Rob check them out they're real Rob checks them out looking for a trick button or some
kind of release but these are real handcuffs Rob agrees these are real handcuffs okay gayy says I'm going to
turn around and I want you to put the cuffs on my wrist behind my back Rob put the cuffs on gas's wrist gasey spins
around again facing Rob again and gasy out of the Cuffs wow Rob thought he's half surprised at the trick but he's
also probably playing along with his weirdo because he really wanted to get this good job mhm all right gasy says
you want to know the trick the trick is you have to have the key oh no [ __ ] and he says this as if
he's pulling the key out of thin air gasy holds out his hand and in it is a small handcuff key look here I'll show
you how to hide the key between your fingers so that no one can see it and I'll show you how to slip out of the
Cuffs very quickly let's start off by putting these cuffs on you yeah how about we don't
gasy secured each of the Cuffs to the boy's thin wrist [ __ ] John with his thick finger starts to hand Rob the key
and then he quickly pulls his hand back away from Rob stop playing around John give me the key Rob watched in amazement
and it appeared as if gas's face was transforming his eyes fluttered and his pupils expanded and became dark it was
as if Rob was looking at a totally different person mhm Rob heard gas's phone ring Rob looked down as he
struggled with his arms trying to get the Cuffs to budge but they wouldn't and then he hears casy's voice well we
better get you home let's get you out of those cuffs I was just playing around Rob looked up and there was the old John
gasy again his big round face smiling gasy took the key and he put it in the cuffs and unlatched them Rob tells gasy
you scared me that's some trick the two agreed to collect their things and go returning to Rob's home but before they
could walk out the front door gasy said you know let me show you one more thing you're going to love this gasy had a
three-foot piece of rope in one hand and he P picked up a wooden Hammer handle with the other hand it's just a wooden
handle though there's no Hammerhead on it he very quickly tied a series of knots and he slid the wooden handle
through a couple of them check this out gasy said with excitement and he placed his Contraption over the boy's head and
around his neck Rob asked what kind of trick is this gasy twist the handle a few times and Rob's face instantly turns
beat red Rob is choking and the handle is wedged firmly against his back right gy jumps back and away from the boy Rob
falls to the floor and with one hand he's trying to get his fingers under the Rope around his neck and the other hand
is twisted up behind his back as he stretches reaching trying to grab the wooden handle gy laughed and jumped
about the room as he watched the boy squirm the more Rob moved the more he jerked the tighter the Rope got Rob
would not survive this trick gas's phone rang again the first first time it rang
he had let the machine get it this time gasy answered it was gas's relative requesting that he go to the hospital
because gas's elderly uncle's Health had taken a bad turn and he was dying gasy said he would be there in about an hour
he hung up the phone and he carried Rob's lifeless body into his bedroom he stripped the boy and he folded the
clothes and placed them in a bag he stuffed one or two pieces of cloth like material into Rob's mouth so fluid would
not leak out he went back out into the main room he looked around the room and he saw the two beer bottles he emptied
them and he threw them in the trash he grabbed Rob's Parker checked the pockets and found a receipt for film from the
pharmacy where he had picked up Rob gasy threw the receipt in the trash and folded up the Parker and placed it in
the bag with the clothes he took a shower got dressed and drove to the hospital and on the way he threw the bag
with Rob's clothes in it in a Salvation Army clothing Dropbox that night at 11:00 p.m. Harold pest with his wife and
two children went to the Dez Plains Police Department and filed the following missing person's report Robert
Jerome piest male caucasian age 15 slender to medium build brown hair brown eyes tan leave eyes t-shirt brown pants
brown suede shoes tan parka last scene in the area Nissan's Pharmacy well just a little PSA right mhm if some uh sloppy
guy right mhm is telling you hey I got I want to show you a little trick with some handcuffs right mhm you say well
first let me show you a Kick let me let me show you a crane kick to the grundle yes so that's what you do the
thing here that I found interesting was that Harold PS with his wife and the two
children they went to the police department and filed the missing person's report happy happy birthday to
your mother but we're talking about 1978 you know we've covered lots of cases where we have missing boys in the late
70s early 80s and they don't really take these reports very seriously when you call them in because a lot of times
these police go to the effort to go out and look for this person and then they find out that the kid was just out on
his own doing whatever he wanted to do he was just running late or you know decided he was going to take off for a
little this one's a little weird because he's leaving work and his mom was at his
work M and he just never made it home and I like that they went in there with the whole family you know and they're
telling the officer no this kid is missing you know Harold explains that the kid has been gone for hours it's his
wife's birthday they were celebrating Rob wouldn't have missed that and he had even called the pharmacy to see if Rob
would be there he was not he spoke to the owner and the owner said you know that that it's possible that Rob might
talked to a contractor or something like that about a job he had heard from the other kids well he got the phone number
for the contractor and Harold had called to ask the contractor about Rob well he
ends up getting the answering machine Harold left a message on John Wayne gas's answering machine very likely
right around the same time that gasy was attacking the boy but we've all been there you know what I mean we we've all
been there no I mean we've been all been in Rob's shoes on on the idea that you know you're let's say you're talking to
somebody about a job mhm oh well so just sit down and have a chat and then you realize the conversation is not going to
be about the job yeah it's going to be and then you just sit there like okay what the hell am I still doing here I
just please let me leave is this guy looking for a friend or to hire me right yeah I I also think when you're about
that age you know the the 14 to 16 17y old boy age mhm I think you know you definitely get the creep Factor by
certain guys you do you do um but I also think that when you see at that age when
you see a successful adult you have this opinion of them without even knowing them that they're some kind of
upstanding person um the next morning the police called John Wayne gas's home they speak with him because he's at home
hosting a meeting amongst other businessmen that he's you know working out some jobs or details of an upcoming
job and gasy basically says you know I don't yeah I was at the pharmacy I was there for a job um I didn't remember
talking to any boys um I talked to some of the teenage girls that were there I might have maybe a boy asked me about
some shelving in the back or something like that he goes you know he he comes off like he's trying to be helpful but
he's not providing any information he's not seen the boy that they're talking about well that that evening uh gasy
takes the body of Rob piest he loads it into his 79 Oldsmobile Delta 88 and he drives it to I to the I55 bridge over
top of the Dez plains River okay and gasey gets out of the vehicle he opens up the truck he Hoist the boy's body up
into his arms and he tossed the body into the river the plus siiz model was good at shot putut well after the
officer learns the name of the contractor he decides that there's some kind of evidence there's enough evidence after
talking to people at the pharmacy that there's a good chance that this John Wayne gasy character probably talked to
the boy and for whatever reason he's not you know admitting to that tell us the truth or he doesn't remember doing so so
he decides to run a background check on gasy the next day oh imagine that yeah and he was surprised to find that gasy
had served time for committing sodomy on a teenager years earlier soon after the
Discovery Well the officer worked very hard to obtain a search warrant for John gas's house it was there that he
believed that he would find Robert PS so once they get the search warrant they're
going to search the pogos Pogo the Clown's house pogo's Playhouse oh god um yeah so gasy
was not home at the time of the search and so they conducted their investigation they went into the home
and they're looking for items to point to whether Rob pest was at the home or if he's still there now they don't find
Rob pest there some of the items that they found that were confiscated from gas's home were the following a jewelry
box containing two driver's license uh neither of them gasy they also found a couple of rings um one of them include
an engravement on it and this was from the main West High School class of 1975 with the initials J on it they found a
box containing marijuana and rolling papers seven pornographic movies marijana pills including valume a
switchblade knife a stained section of rug color photographs of pharmacies and drugstores an address book a scale books
about buy and gay Lifestyles a pair of handcuffs with keys a nylon rope a 3ft long wooden handle with two holes
drilled in each end of it a small starter pistol with with uh gun caps basically like like blanks uh they also
found police badges some sex toys a hypodermic syringe and an unlabeled small brown bottle they found clothing
that was way too small for John Wayne gasy and they found a receipt for a roll of film with a serial number on it and
this was from Nissan's Pharmacy three automobiles belonging to gasy were also confiscated Jesus guy's a baller
including the pickup truck that we discussed earlier it's that plus-size model money as well as his 79 Oldsmobile
and a van with PDM contractors on its side now within the trunk of the car they found some pieces of hair uhhuh
uhhuh I'd like to talk about the receipt that was found right you know there's so
we should assume that that was the receipt of the boys well that's that's what their thought thought is so the
police their thought is you know this comes from Nissan's Pharmacy this is where uh the boy was however gasy was
there too so we can't prove that this receipt belonged to the boy you know gasy could have bought film at some
point at the pharmacy so what they do is they take the receipt and they go back to the pharmacy and they start
discussing this receipt with a bunch of the employees well they talk with one employee and her name is Kim buers she's
a cashier there she's a teenage girl well Rob piest was was a pretty popular kid I mean he was very well-liked by
everyone he was a good-looking kid uh I think he you know he was he was a kid that the the the girls kind of chased at
high school a little B sounds a little bit like the colonel nothing like the kle anyway
they're talking to these different employees and this Kim berer says you know what that night was a particularly
cold night and the door here I'm you know the cashier's up by the door usually uh and every time the door would
open all that cold air would rush in so Rob being a nice guy he offers to let her borrow his parka his jacket that's a
gentleman yeah he that's a gentleman that's how it's done instead of standing up here and shivering your butt off you
know here wear this parka and you'll be warm for the evening let me keep your butt warm is what he said well Kim buers
she had a bit of a crush on Rob so she had purchased some film from Nissan's Pharmacy and she purposely put the rece
receipt in the jacket pocket because she thought you know what he'll find the receipt he'll know that I left it in
there by quote unquote mistake and he'll he'll come yeah he'll come and talk to me and maybe that's a smart move and
maybe he'll ask me about the film maybe he'll ask me you know what what am I am I into photography or whatever and so
it's you want me to take your picture it's there that the police learn that there is no way that that receipt could
have ended up in gas's home unless Rob Pest and his Parker were at gas's home at some point that evening which this is
going to give him probable cause to do another search maybe a more in-depth search and also so let's get to that and
let's get to the surveillance of John Wayne gasey right after this quick beer break this show is sponsored by better
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to Dom over in England driving the bus cheers to you mate John Wayne gasy was called into the police department and he
was told of the articles that they had confiscated now gasy was enraged and he immediately contacted his lawyer the
police basically had nothing to arrest him on and they eventually had to release him after some more questioning
about the PS boy's disappearance gasy was put under 24-hour surveillance and if anybody knows anything about this
24-hour surveillance that John Wayne gasey was on uh it's it's I hate to make light of a of a terrible situation but
it's the stuff that it's a comedy to me right Captain I mean I don't know what you're talking about gayy would he would
he would purposely you know drive fast so he could lose them he knew he knew he was under surveillance um he would he
would lose them and uh there were other times where he would tell them you know I know you guys are having trouble
keeping up with me so if if you if you can't keep up I'll be at this place in a half an hour just meet me there and then
he would drive off and lose them and sure enough he would be where he said he was going to be a half an hour later one
of the times that he lost that he lost them uh they called the the airport because they were worried that gasy
would fly out of the country and leave this situation that's going on because by this point you know they're convinced
that they're going to find the PS boy either at his home somewhere or that he had done something with the boy now they
they call the airport and put his name on some kind of list and it turns out they find him he's two blocks away from
his house he's he's looking at Christmas trees at at a lot somewhere right you know and there was one situ happening
one situation the the police car breaks down and these are unmarked police cars MH but the police car breaks down and
gasy stops his vehicle he gets out and he goes up to the officers and he says you know what's the problem with the car
said the car broke down and he said okay well uh since you know why don't I just
give you guys a a lift you can ride with me um for the remainder of the day until
you get a new car right what's fascinating to me is you're under surveillance uh for this missing
teenage boy and the cops at this point are probably assuming that this teenage boy is dead mhm
and and you're just going about your business you know just buying Christmas trees yeah nothing's happening yeah and
the other thing that's going on here remember we talked about that one ring that was found in gas's home and they
end up believing it had the initials J on it they believe that the the ring could have belonged to a guy by the name
of John sick this is somebody we talked about yesterday um the situation here is
they also discover that three former employees of gases have also mysteriously disappeared now the problem
with this situation is these cases were reported in Chicago they weren't reported to the Dez Plains Police
Department remember the pest family went to the Dez Plains Police Department to to let them know that Rob was missing
right and it wasn't until then that a Dez Pain's police officer ran a background check that three times fast
yeah I couldn't I couldn't say it once um they run the background check and they see that gasy you know he has this
sodomy charge had the Chicago Police ran his background check with these other missing people and some of these cases
they were it was believe the last person who had seen them was gasy uh we might have been able to cut this list a little
shorter so they don't have the evidence but now they think that gasy could be responsible for the murder of anywhere
between one to four persons the thing here is after they searched his home they called in some of his friends now
these were I say friends but they're also people that worked for John Wayne gasy and two of the people that they
talked to and we mentioned these names yesterday is David crra and Mike Rossy um remember we had the discussion we
wondered if they were the same person just using different names you know sometimes when they tell these stories
they make up fake names to for poten potential victims to to hide their identity but the jury's out and they are
they're different people all right and the reason why the reason why I got confused was they had similar stories
they both worked for John Wayne gasy uh they both told police that at one time or another they had done projects for
gasy at his home and this included digging trenches in the crawl space as well as lifting up floorboards and
digging trenches under there uh they had also I'm glad the colonel figured it all
they had also poured concrete for him um remember Michael Rossi was the boy that
was driving the missing guys vehicle right um and David crra now David crra he was with John Wayne gasey the night
that gasy returned to his home after the first search was conducted and he walked
roomto room with John Wayne gasy as he inspected the things that the the police may have taken and what they looked
through right and during this inter interogation process with the police David crem tells them that gayy the
first place he went to in the home after you guys searched it was the crawl space
where I had dug those trenches before right so at some point we need to check that crawl space yeah that's exactly
what the police want to do they want to get in that cross space they they didn't
dig around in there the first time now the police also make a lot of statements about saying like you were saying John
Wayne gas's giv us rides you know our car is breaking down and he would just kind of stop by and
talk to us and I think even took him out to dinner and and and a few odd things like that and the police had to keep
reminding themselves like yeah this guy's a very Charming guy and he seems like on the surface just completely
Innocent but there's all these there's all this evidence leading to the fact that he's not mhm so they had to keep
reminding themselves and we're police officers you know we have to keep doing our job yeah and the police now they're
becoming frustrated because this surveillance that they're conducting they're kind of looking like like fools
in this whole situation because it's like I said it's comical um so let talk about the fish dinner right so do you
know much about this I I know just a little bit about it you're talking about when he invites the the guys the
officers that are surveilling him right there's right they're out front of his house yeah and he's at this point he he
knows he's under surveillance he's already talked to the cops multiple times but he cooks them a fish dinner mhm
right so they're like okay well we'll go in the house now this is after they searched already right but as they're
eating the fish dinner because you know the fish has you know an odor odor I think because there was a a secondary
odor mhm it really Drew their attention to the odor in the house yeah and and as
they're eating this fish dinner they're going something stinks in here yeah and it's not the fish yeah and I think one
of the officers said that it wasn't something that they outwardly noticed immediately but it was one of those
situations where as the longer they sat in the home every time the furnace would
kick on and start blowing that hot air around that they would notice this this foul stench yeah this funk so the police
they are frustrated due to the lack of evidence uh that they've collected regarding The Disappearance of Robert pi
they decide to arrest gayy on possession of marijuana andum uh during this time during this arrest now gasy is awaiting
action on some other charges remember yesterday we talked about Jeff ringal now this guy he is the one that was
abducted by gasy and he went and he he went to the area that he was taken from and he was looking for the vehicle that
that he had gotten into right and he found the vehicle and he wrote down the license plate well he took that plate to
the the police and once he got their John Wayne gas's name from them he filed sexual assault charges against him good
for him so at this time unbeknownst to the investigators we have this this other charge the sexual assault charge
right so they they have him in custody and they're going to keep doing more searches but then what comes from that
well they they're also interrogating gayy at this point and he's already lawyered up mhm what the cops don't know
is that gayy has already confessed to his attorneys okay well the attorneys think that he's suicidal because during
these confessions he's telling his attorneys you know for many years I've been the judge jury and executioner of
many and I'm going to be the judge jury and executioner of myself okay so the attorneys believe him to be suicidal and
they want to put him in the hospital this end ends up leading to more police interrogations with Mr gasy during these
interrogations gasy starts confessing to murder he does state that he had killed
someone but it had in fact been in self-defense oh of course and that he had buried the body underneath the the
garage well they've not started digging yet uh but this guy still wants to talk and he starts telling them you know this
is something that's happened more than once um I've and they start really digging on him now because he he they
suspect them of as many as four that's all they were expecting to hear about was four and at some point only that's a
lot he starts saying well he starts saying it's probably more like 30 people Jesus uh and he states that he buried
most of the remains in the victim of the victims beneath the crw base of his home
uh I want to take you through these confession here a little bit okay all right um the first confession it takes
place he says that this took place in uh 71 or 72 well it's a little strange though that you showed up to the garage
today full clown makeup that's my normal get up nowadays um he he says that this murder took
place in 71 or 72 I believe it was in in the month of January he said that he picked up a boy at a bus station and
they decided to drive around smoke some pot they were going to go back to his place eat some food you know have lots
of drinks and he had he had a couple magic tricks to show him and and just party and he said that they then engaged
in consensual sex he says that he woke up the next morning to find the boy the young man
standing in the doorway of his bedroom holding a knife that the guy had taken from Gay's kitchen mhm he says that the
guy tries to attack gayy and and gayy defending himself gets the knife from the guy and he stabbed him several times
killing the guy this is the guy that he buried in the garage not a guy it was a boy okay the other situation is he
starts talking about um remember we had uh butkovich his his employee old butkovich well remember they had the
dispute about the money mhm um he tells a story that he decided to when when bovic and his buddies come over to try
to collect the money that he said you know what I'll pay you as soon as I can uh we ain't got nothing to do why don't
we you know drink some booze some beers hang out and party he said they partied all night long and he's not sure what
happened but when he woke up the next morning there was a dead boy YOLO with Pogo on his
floor um so he had to get rid of it this is yeah odd stories from John Wayne gazy
yeah so those are his stories about why they might find some dead bodies in his home on the first day that the police
begin their digging they find two bodies one of the bodies is that of John bucov
uh who was buried underneath the garage I believe in this situation G gasy even like put an x on the floor and said you
know dig here right um he was going to kind of lead them to some of the bodies the other body that they found was in
the cross space as the days passed the body count grew higher some of the victims were found in with their
underwear still stuffed lodged deep in their throats other victims were buried so close together that the police
believed that they were probably killed or buried at the same time the police had removed a total of 27 bodies from
gas's home Jesus they also started finding bodies in the Dez PL PL River four in total one of the bodies found in
the river well they could easily link that body to gasy because that man's identification was one of the IDS found
in gas's home right right right one of the victims found in the river was unidentified but he had Tim Lee tattooed
on one of his arms a friend of the victim's father had recognized the Tim Lee tattoo while reading a newspaper
story about the discovery of the in the river MH the victim's name was Timothy aor now uh he was such a fan of Bruce
Lee that he took Lee's last name and he added it to his first name to make the tattoo on his arm so it was just a
really bad idea for a tattoo but glad that they identified him soon after the discovery of all of these
bodies the house was destroyed um it was basically reduced to Rebel um um unfortunately among the 32 bodies that
were discovered that of Robert PS was still unaccounted for PS was still missing finally in April of 1970 the
remains of Robert piest were discovered in the Illinois River his body had been lodged somewhere along the river making
it difficult to find this body and at some point it must have become dislodged and carried the corpse to The Dresden
Dam where it was eventually discovered go with me on this Theory though right so the first first guy he talks about we
already know about the guy that he picked up in Chicago right the one that he he he raped the guy that got away the
guy that got now think about Gay's first story there's some things that make sense here you you picked up a a boy you
sexually assaulted him you raped him mhm he wasn't dead and when that boy comes too that boy grabbed a knife and decided
he's going to kill the bastard that did this to him I see I see what you're saying there's there might be some truth
to what went down and actually one of the bodies that was found uh in his home they believe that now keep in mind a lot
of these people are very decomposed by the time they find them but this person had uh evidence of having been stabbed
to death you know where you have the the markings on the ribs uh from the from the knife yeah so I mean maybe there's
some validity there I would suspect myself that John Wayne gasey probably killed in Iowa um it's it's possible um
the other thing here too is when gasy was confessing he said that you know I killed about 30 people he he estimated
that there might be about 30 people in his home that they would find and he said that I threw the last five bodies
in the river well they only ever recovered four four bodies um you know and then we know how many they found at
his home but there still could be that missing victim out there from when he was in Chicago Police have a lot of
bodies to work with here and they're going to start using dental records and other Clues to help identify the victims
who were found on gas's property all but nine of the victims were finally identified well that's still a lot of
people yeah and even though their searches had ended we have a trial to deal with regarding John Wayne gasy in
February of 1980 gas's murder trial began in Cook County Illinois jury members consisted of five women and
seven men uh there was a change of venue requested and what ended up happening was they did not Grant the change of
venue instead the judge decided that he would select jurors from another city and have them bust in very odd it's just
like Casey Anthony yeah that that was one of the weird coincidences that we came across and he chose the the City of
Rockford which another coinci incidence was 90 M away almost the exact same distance as chosen in the Casey Anthony
case um the defense is going to say that John Wang gasy Is Not Guilty by reason of insanity uh three psychiatric experts
appearing for the defense at gas's trial testified that they found gasy to be a paranoid schizophrenic with multiple
personality disorder I want to talk about this for a little bit because during some of his confessions gasy kept
bringing up another name and this name was Jack Hanley he said that Jack Hanley had committed some of the murders and he
even gave a full personality profile of Mr Jack Hanley right now but it was very
clear to the people that he was talking with that gayy was talking about himself
Jack Hanley is himself Jack Hanley is another version of John Wayne gasy mhm during the opening statements uh they
presented evidence uh by the prosecution that left a stunning impression on the jurors and the courtroom Spectators many
of them saying that they had learned some of the details of gas's killings for the very first time uh gas's defense
lawyers stated that gas's actions were irrational and impulsive and that he was insane and no longer in control of his
conduct the prosecution brought its first witness to the stand this is Marco bukovich uh the father of John bukovich
M he was the first witness of many that included the family and friends of the murdered victims some of the
eyewitnesses broke down into tears on the bench following the friends and family of the victims came the testimony
of those who worked for gasy who survived strange sexual encounters with him uh with their boss some of his
ex-employees told of his mood swings and how he would trick them into being handcuffed others told how he constantly
made passes at them while he was at work and and typical fashion the prosecution
is going to come out and say well we found him to be sane yes his their experts say that John Wayne gasy is a
sane man um very much to the surprise of everyone in the courtroom when the defense started their case the first
witness that they called was Jeff rigal remember this was the person that was abducted by John Wayne gasy Right um it
was expected that he would have been called to testify on behalf of the prosecution however uh rnal had
previously mentioned his encounter with gasey in a book and the prosecution believed that it would damage their case
if they took him on as a witness so they didn't call him gas's defense asked rnal
while on the stand if he thought that gasy was able to control himself and Jeff did not believe so considering the
Savage savagery of gas's attack right right right but you know John Wayne gazy talks about this later in life too that
if you're going to say that somebody like for somebody to do what he did if you're going to try to say that that's
sane mhm then you don't want to be on the same side of the fence of as that person yeah and and I and I think
there's some validity to that I mean if you're capable of murdering this many people and burying them in your crawl
space you're crazy right you know what I mean so but the the problem with our our
our system is that we we make that lenient if the person was insane mhm and it should not be it should be no we we
do think you're crazy but you know you're going away forever well and what the prosecution was trying to do was
they were trying to point out the clear difference to the jury between the difference of being abnormal and and
insane you know they're saying gasy is not your normal dude uh but he's not he's not legally insane we must hold him
accountable for his action um now Jeff RN he did not t his testimony did not last very long because
while on the stand he broke down while telling the court the details of his rape uh rigal was so stressed out that
he began to vomit and cry hysterically and he was eventually removed from the courtroom now in an effort to prove
gas's Insanity friends and family of gasy were called to the stand gas's mother told how her husband abused gayy
on several occasions at one time whipping him with a leather strap yeah well that's the razor the razor belt we
talked about mhm and gasy sisters told a similar story of how she repeatedly witnessed her brother being verbally
abused by their father yeah but that's that's no excuse you know you become 18 years old you're responsible for your
actions well after the court proceedings were over uh it only took 2 hours of deliberation for the jury to come back
with its verdict they found John well that's after one hour of eating and one hour of a coffee break they found John
Wayne gasy guilty gasy was found guilty in the deaths of 33 young men and as one
of the people in the court stated that he had the singular notoriety of having been convicted of more murders than
anyone else in American history and gasy received the death penalty right and it's strange to me uh talk about a mom
being an enabler which we talked about in the Casey Anthony case mhm John Wayne gase's mom still never believed that he
was guilty of the crimes right um and I wonder how much of that is that she believes that her son
was insane okay you know that he was not guilty by reason of insanity well diving
into the sick twisted mind of uh John Wayne gasey we we actually when we had an apartment together we actually
remember those documentaries they started coming out with not documentaries but reenactments I guess
yeah they would do a movie of like a serial killer that yeah dmer and I think we watched dmer together and I think we
watched and I think we watched uh gasy together too did gayy had the the the big guy that played in um peew Herman's
Playhouse yeah he was uh uh buckon I can't remember his first name but uh Francis buckon the guy that paid to have
the bicycle stolen and yeah he was also the he played center for the basketball team on Teen Wolf oh yeah great movie
wonderful movie but great actor though underrated cuz if you watch that I I'd recommend it as far as entertainment if
you if you're into this thing and you kind of want to get a glimpse into maybe what some of the visual of you know with
the Pogo the clown and all that stuff it was an interesting movie and I think he
did a great job you know uh Francis did a great job acting the part um uh it's not very factual I actually rewatched it
while you know preparing for the show okay it's not that factual there's a lot of stuff that they kind of Miss on yeah
um and I think that you know Hollywood it up but it is we I think we watched that when we had an apartment together
but something that I thought was really interesting going back over this and something that I've kind of never
thought about too much or never really made my ears perk up is this idea that you know normally it's
like okay John Wayne gasy saying well okay so H there was this other guy and we start thinking that well maybe that's
split personality but when he starts talking later in life before you know his death
he's going to start talking about other people involved yeah and other accompli and every time that he like talked about
it in the past I never really put much weight into that mhm yeah during the 80s during his time
in prison he starts bringing up you know that there were other people that helped
me with these killings you know there there were two or I think at sometimes he's he's quoted as saying there are two
people that helped him uh other times I believe he said as many as three people that had I think I think the total I
think uh one of the interviews I watched he said four okay and during that interview he actually named names now
again never put much weight to this until you know one of the accusers talks about that well it wasn't just John way
gasy there was another guy there yeah Jeff rignall uh he was the one that was abducted and got away and he would later
state that he believed that there was another man present at gas's home that night that he was attacked right which
starts making you think well there's some validity and if you listen to the trailer we we talked about how police
Works saying well we're denying that we're looking for accomplices but there seems to be like there was
some evidence to the point that there might have been during some of the attacks and I would just argue to say
this is a guy that was throwing these huge parties watching these stag films and also these big parties where they're
doing you know orgies mhm and I'm there obviously there's a big stretch from going to that to having somebody be a
complice of murder but I'm just saying what kind of what kind of people what kind of sick people was he running
with and I think we should play this news clip because I think it will explain the situation in better detail
than what we [Music] can Larry he was known as the Killer Clown John Wayne gayi murdered 33 young
men and was executed in 1993 but we're learning the gayy story may not be over new details of the
investigation have only recently come to light and may show gasy didn't act alone
33 years after his arrest there are still lingering questions about John Wayne gayy Terry Sullivan was on the
prosecution team I felt that from the beginning that uh that there may be loose end it was such a huge case
especially at the time the idea of a gasy accomplice was raised from the beginning by Jeffrey rignall he is one
of a few people who survived Gay's attack he said another man was at G G's home the night gasy raped him attorneys
Robert Stevenson and Steve Becker have been trying to help families of victims find answers they've been getting tips
from the public and they've uncovered information that they say shows someone else may have been involved in some of
the killings there is significant evidence out there that suggests that not only did John Wayne gasy not operate
alone may not have been involved in some of the the murders um and the fact that
he was largely a copycat killer for this story we're focusing on two of Gay's victims Russell Nelson and Robert
Gilroy September 15th 1977 Gilroy sends a letter to his girlfriend from a mailbox not far from
gas's home then at 6:00 p.m. that same day Gilroy is supposed to meet other kids at a bus stop for a trip to
equestrian school but he never shows up he was never seen again but according to
gas's receipts in court records gase's plane ticket shows he flew to Pennsylvania September 12th and didn't
return until the night of the 16th the day after Gilroy was last seen alive could someone have been helping gayy
listen to this recording of a phone conversation between gasy in prison and a friend in Chicago well I wasn't even
in Illinois when 16 of these so-call individuals disappeared a month later October
1977 Russell Nelson disappears according to testimony from his mother Russell went to a disco on North Broadway with a
friend who was several years older the friend called the family to say Nelson just disappeared outside the Disco and
that he would look for him if they'd send money he called me two or three times a week and threaten me for money
he said he was staying down here to look for my son Russell Nelson's Brothers went to
Chicago to look for Russell and met with the friend who was asking their mother to send money to help search for Russell
the friend offered Russell's Brothers a job with John Wayne gasy Russell Nelson's sister-in-law recently told us
the family is anxious for answers I would like to have a anybody El is involved in they brought to justice for
what they have done to him or could have been somebody else out there and another
possible connection to gayy it turns out a few months before Russell Nelson disappeared gasy did work at a drugstore
just blocks from where the friend lived I think it tells us that John Wayne gasy
was using other individuals to procure young boys over state lines according to Becker and Stevenson the friend is still
alive and now living in another state if in fact gayy um had other accomplices or
people who knew something that was going on those people should be be brought to
Justice it's scary in and of itself that there may be others out there there's something else mysterious about the
cases of Robert Gilroy and Russell Nelson while gayy was known to use a rope and board to strangle his victims
the autopsy reports for Gilroy and Nelson show they died from asphixiation from Suffocation not
strangulation the report says that each had cloth in their mouths they claimed an I st each and every one of them look
at your strangulation put a rope around their NE and strangle them after they were
handcuffed if that's so then how come the autopsy reports don't match that which tells you there had to be more
than one person in fact 13 victims were listed as Suffocation another serial killer case may offer insight to gas's
mode of operation in Terry Sullivan's book Killer Clown a detective asked gasy where he got the idea for the torture
board gasy replies from from Elmer Wayne Henley Henley and another boy helped serial killer Dean Coral whose case has
a lot of similarities with gasy coral abducted raped tortured and murdered 28 boys mostly teenagers in the early 1970s
in Houston he often used handcuffs and strangled his victims they do follow Coral's mode of operation almost
identically and one of the most significant Parts about coral is that he used two much younger individuals to
assist him in gathering up and and luring in his victims nothing as far as killing or recruiting or or bringing we
we had no evidence that we thought about it but we just never saw any evidence Gay's defense lawyer Sam amaranti says
he doesn't believe any of it he says gasy confessed to everything early on and after years in prison began to
change his story I uh used to talk to gasy about uh maybe somebody else uh committed the offense maybe gasy was in
some sort of stuper or drug state or alcohol State and didn't know what was going on around him and uh we sort of uh
would plant a seed in John's brain as to what happened he would look at say you know maybe you know maybe you're right
maybe that's really what happened Becker and Stevenson will be taking their case
to law enforcement these individuals did end up in gas's crawl space so we're just looking to find out the the whole
truth about these cases and we follow these leads to this point if these individuals were waking uh working with
John Wayne gasy to procure young boys they should be uh held to Justice the scope of the gasy case is as complex as
it is disturbing and after three decades there are still questions that haunt investigators as well as the families of
victims still looking for [Music] answers all right thank you Larry so what do you think about everything that
uh they were reporting on there regarding these the you know the two victims that they talked about you know
gasy might have been gone during one of the you know off in Pennsylvania yeah I don't know know how
much you know I got a plane ticket so that proves us was here nah you don't have anybody that saw you not only that
he could have the boy could have ended up at his house the next day once he got home yeah the the reason why I feel that
there is some validity to this is one they investigated it the prosecution thought there there was maybe some ties
and the fact that there was you know a victim that talked about it and and so that makes it to me a lot more more like
a situation with like the Johnny gosh type thing mhm where it's like well here's this guy that was predominant and
and trying to raise his social status and he was around people that had social status and was there some kind of weird
sex ring going on I don't know I I think there is some evidence to to to show that well and I'll tell you what I'm
going to kind of present the thing from both sides of the fence here on on the potential case that there was an
accomplice or accompli is um the thing is we have a couple of guys that work for John Wayne gasey that knew he was a
weirdo they said you know he tricked me into handcuffs and he came on to me and he did all this weird stuff he would
have these weird parties but I also even though I knew the guy was a weirdo I I you know I did work at his house uh
digging trenches and lifting floorboards and these different projects and I did it without asking any questions um that
does seem a little weird to me could they have been rounding up people off of the streets for gayy and he's he's
paying them you know 200 bucks a person or or or something of that nature possibility um right so then by saying
well I dug ditches and stuff you're implementing yourself less yeah yeah and I and I don't want to and I'm going to
talk about it from the flip side here mhm I don't want to discredit any victim you know this this Jeff guy he was he
was abducted he was taken to gas's home he thankfully gets away uh he's the one that says he saw another man there uh
but let's keep in mind Jeff was blacking out he was going in and out of Consciousness this entire period is
there a chance that he is misremembering that he doesn't he doesn't fully understand everything that he thought
that he saw during the situation yeah it's possible we also talked about there were several people that said that you
know once gasy got you in the handcuffs that he almost he he turned into a different person almost like he was
possessed to the point where he even slightly looked different where where they didn't even recognize him um Jack
Hanley yeah well but here's the verdict on that though right John Wayne gasy Jack Hanley one and the same both douche
canoes yeah so that's one full canoe right there that is um the thing is the the other thing is with gasy we see at
the very beginning his defense attorneys now I got to point this out because this
is a strange situation his defense attorney uh was a private well not a private he was a public defender for
several years Colonel and he decided to go into private practice well unfortunate for him his first client was
John Wayne gasy can you imagine can you imagine that situation but the situation
is this you know when his attorney tells gasy says you know what you've got to be
insane to do this and we're we're going to recommend that we we state that you're not guilty by the reason of
insanity I believe gasy ran with that he's like oh yeah that's a good idea I didn't think of that oh remember my good
friend Jack Hanley who who did a lot of these murders so it seems to me like we have a situation here where somebody
might have presented some information to gasy and he's saying well I've been stuck in prison for a while um my
execution date is Drawing Near how about I get creative like Mr Ted Bundy and you
know Bundy started confessing to things towards the end what if gayy thought well I can concoct some stories and buy
me some time right yeah again the reason why I have some validity or why I feel there's some validity to it is one the
prosecution thought that it was possible and the victim mhm and this is going to
bring us up to um his execution yes on uh May 10th 1994 John Wayne gasey was executed at Statesville Correctional
Center in Crest Hill Illinois by lethal injection M his last meal consisted of a
dozen deep fried shrimp a bucket of original recipe chicken from KFC a pound of fresh strawberries and french fries
now I'm guessing here Captain what actually happened is he that's probably what he requested he probably got some
fried chicken from the prison kitchen uh his execution was a minor media sensation there were large crowds of
people gathered for the execution party outside of the penitentiary uh there were several arrests during those
execution parties uh for public intoxication open container violations and disorderly
conduct vendors sold gasy related t-shirts and other merchandise and the Crow cheered at the moment when gasy was
pronounced dead according to reports gasy did not express any remorse his last words to
his lawyer in his cell were something to the effect that killing him would not bring anyone back it is also reported
that his last words were kiss my ass uh which which is not really what he said while he was you know lying there
waiting to die he can imagine you're the prison guard you're going up and going well we
we got to poke you yeah and and I kiss my ass they say those are his last words but you know he didn't actually give a
final statement but those were his last words in the sense that when he was being led to the execution chamber he
looked at one of the correctional officers and said kiss my ass kiss my ass well worse than that
several of of gas's victims that were found buried in his home still to this day have not been identified right and
that's that's a tragedy yeah and we have a situation where I believe that uh within the last 10 years or so they did
identify one of those unidentified victims um there was a situation in 2013 where there was a man that was always
believed to have been murdered by John Wayne gasy but he was found living in Montana um so that made him the fifth
potential victim found alive in the past 2 years between 2011 and 2013 the investigators tracked him down
this was after um basically what happened with him was he the last time his family spoke to him he had stated
that he was going to be hitchhiking from New York City out to California and they
thought because they had never heard from their son for all these years that he may have been passing through Chicago
and got picked up by gasey somehow um unfortunately for the family they were they believed him to be a victim for
quite some time uh but found that he was living in Montana all these years later
and he did reunite with his father unfortunately his mother passed away believing he was a victim right but he
didn't he just didn't like his family anymore he just yeah he he decided to leave town and he never you know
reconnected with his family he he actually didn't even know that he was considered to be a victim of John Wayne
gasy well I want to personally thank you Colonel for uh sharing the stories that
will give me nightmares about Pogo and John Wayne gasy do we have any recommended reading for the week we do
this week we're recommending John Wayne gasy defending a monster by Sam amarate and now Sam is the public defender that
turned into his private practice and he became John Wayne gas's attorney and he wrote this many years later
um but I'll give you a little a little clip here um he answered the phone one day Sam did and he heard Sam could you
do me a favor this is how the story began of what now has become part of America's True Crime Hall of Fame it's a
gory grotesque tale it's almost like a Stephen King novel and I tell you what one thing that I find that's hard to
find in the True Crime genre you know so many of these books are written by former detectives or former FBI they're
not true authors they're not true storytellers uh Sam would you would think would fall into that category
having been a lawyer and then going on to become a judge however this story it really it reads like a Truman capot book
you know where it reads more like a novel more like like a story so I highly recommend John Wayne gasey defending a
monster and you can pick that up by going to our website True Crime garage.com and click on the Amazon
Banner thanks to everybody for listening thanks for the five star reviews and thank you for telling a friend about the
show and we hope to see all of you back here in the garage next week for another
episode and until then be good be kind and don't [Music] [Applause] live you can live out your Master Chef
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that

John Wayne Gacy /// Part 2 /// 106

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John Wayne Gacy was liked by most who knew him. He was a sharp businessman who had spent his time building up his contracting company, hosting elaborate parties, and entertaining children at hospitals. People thought of him as a generous, friendly, and hard-working man. However, there was another side that few had ever witnessed... Or at least lived to tell about. For several years John Wayne Gacy viciously tortured, raped and murdered more than thirty young men, who would later be discovered in his home and in the local river. This is the story of a community leader who was called the most hated man in America. He also has earned the name "the killer clown."

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Brief Summary

John Wayne Gacy's horrific crimes and trial are explored, revealing chilling details about his manipulation and the investigation that led to his capture.

Key points

The Offer. John Wayne Gacy offers a job to 15-year-old Rob Pest, leading to a fateful encounter.
The Handcuff Trick. Gacy performs a chilling handcuff trick on Rob, showcasing his manipulative nature.
A Missing Person's Report. Rob Pest's family reports him missing after he fails to return home.
Gacy's Surprising Background Check. Officers discover Gacy's past sodomy conviction while investigating a missing boy.
The Fish Dinner Incident. Gacy invites police to dinner, but a foul odor raises suspicions.
Confessions of a Killer. Gacy confesses to multiple murders, claiming self-defense in one case.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

You know what? How about I wait for you?

John Wayne Gacy offers to wait for Rob Pest after his shift.

9:51WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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