John Wayne Gacy /// Part 1 /// 105 | Forensic Files

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This is True Crime Garage, and this is the case of John Wayne Gacy. In Des Plaines, Illinois, near Chicago,
a man who served time in prison for sex crimes was let out. Today, they found the bodies of at least three young boys
buried under his house. He is charged with murder. Here's Jim Cummins. Police have been watching John Gacy's
suburban Chicago home for the past 10 days. They became suspicious when 15-year-old
Robert Piest disappeared after he allegedly was last seen with Gacy. This morning, police searched Gacy's
home and found the decomposed remains of three bodies in a dirt crawl space under
the house. They suspect there are several more bodies buried here. It's suspected because of the looks of
the area down in the uh the uh crawl space. Uh There are some other mounds and appears
to be more there. Gacy is a 36-year-old building contractor who reportedly dressed like a
clown to entertain at children's parties. Prosecutors say he once went to prison for a sex offense in Iowa.
This afternoon, Gacy was charged with murdering Robert Piest. And after hearing the remains of more bodies were
found at Gacy's house, Judge Marvin Peters ordered him held without bond. At the hearing, police said Gacy has
confessed to the Piest murder. He will be examined by a psychiatrist. Meanwhile, investigators have started to
dismantle Gacy's house and garage as they continue to search for other bodies in this quiet suburban neighborhood.
Chicago, Illinois, March 17th, 1942, St. Patrick's Day. Mr. John Gacy and Mrs. Marion Gacy welcomed
their first son into the world at Edgewater Hospital. They named him after his father. Well, technically, they
named him after the mother's favorite actor, John Wayne. So, John Wayne Gacy Jr. His father was John Stanley Gacy.
So, technically, not even a junior. He was the second of three children. His older sister, Joan, was born 2 years
before him, and 2 years after him was his little sister, Karen. All three attended Catholic schools, and they grew
up on the northern side of Chicago. John Wayne Gacy was not a particularly popular kid in school, although he got
along well with his teachers and made friends at school. He was part of the Boy Scouts, and he enjoyed the outdoor
activities that came with being a part of the Boy Scouts. Now, Gacy's father was pretty hard on
the children, and Gacy felt that he was abused, mostly emotionally and verbally.
Mhm. His father often told Gacy that he was a disappointment, that he was dumb, that he was stupid. That he was a [ __ ]
Yeah. And he would he would even call him some let's say slurs that we will not be
using on today's episode. Yeah, and it seems to me like John Stanley was very excited to have a boy. Mhm. To
have John Gacy in the you know, John Wayne Gacy into the family. But, instead of you know, fishing and
playing sports and stuff like that, he's into gardening. He was into hanging out
with his mother, hanging out with his sister. And it sounds like John's father, John Sr., was a pretty difficult
man to be around. Now, I don't know if that if John Gacy Sr. was hard on the two daughters as much as he was on John
Gacy Jr. Yeah, he he whipped them all a razor belt. Mhm. But I'm I'm guessing that that John
Wayne Gacy Jr. probably got the worst of it being treated a little bit differently by his crappy father simply
because he was the only boy. Mhm. Now, in 1951, when John Wayne Gacy was 9 years old, he
was diagnosed with some kind of heart condition. Um from my understanding, the diagnosis was a non-specific heart
ailment. Yeah, and they detected this because any you know, he's playing outside with some
people with some friends at school and he passed out. Well, and this could be part of a a larger problem here because
a couple years later when when John Gacy was 11 years old, now the story goes like this, he was playing near a swing
set and he was hit in the head by one of the swings. Now, you would think that this would be a rather small accident.
However, this is believed to be the cause of a of a blood clot that formed in John Gacy's brain. Um the blood clot
was not discovered until Gacy was 16. From the age of 11 to the age of 16, Gacy suffered severe headaches and he
often blacked out. This was caused, believed to be caused by the blood clot, because the blackouts stopped after the
clot was discovered and Gacy was given medication to to dissolve the blockage in the brain.
Uh this would be a pretty traumatic experience when you think about it though. You have this young boy who's
trying to fit in with the other boys and he goes through this period of what, 5 years where he's he's got these
weird blackouts that would happen from time to time. John Wayne Gacy wasn't doing so well in
school, which was another big disappointment to his father. So, he actually started taking on a trade. This
was pretty common back in the day. So, he started working with a printing press. But because as kept on blacking
out, they said, look, you cannot work on a printing press machine if you're going
to keep blacking out. Yeah, it's too dangerous. Something horrible could happen to him. Well, he
was hospitalized several times over the years. This for the blood the blood clot
and for his heart condition. He was having quite a bit of problems with this. This being in his late school
years. Gacy was a good student when he was much younger. But maybe because of these
health problems, it turned out that he ended up not being able to be a good student. Despite the
medical problems, Gacy was considered a hard worker. He took on a part-time job,
several part-time jobs after school. He had newspaper routes and he also worked at a grocery store, at one of those IGA
stores as a bag boy and a stock clerk. That was one of my favorite places to go as a kid.
We had one here in town and that you would always hope to get a couple bucks from mom and dad so you could buy some
candy after school. Although Gacy and his father had a lot of problems, as the captain said, John
Gacy's relationship with his mother and his sisters were very strong. He was extremely close with his mother and his
sisters. There is rumor and speculation that John Wayne Gacy Sr., that the the father was
not only abusive but also an alcoholic. There is some suspicion that he physically abused his wife and verbally
abused all three of the children as well. Well, there's not a lot of suspicion that he was a alcoholic, he
was an alcoholic. He He ends up dying from cirrhosis of the liver. Well, needless to say that the family had
problems. Several times John's mother threatened to leave John's father and even though
John Sr. was an unpleasant individual, John Jr. did seek out attention from his father and he desperately wanted to gain
his father's approval. Mhm. mean, I think you see that with most boys, you know, they want the they always kind of
seek the approval of the father more so than the mother, I I would assume. Well,
and outside of these medical problems, there were some red flags regarding John Wayne Gacy's childhood. And now, these
are stories that were relayed uh from his mother and his sisters. But, when John was about five or six years old, he
got in trouble within the family. And uh he had been stealing his mother's undergarments. Mhm. And these these
undergarments kept disappearing and disappearing. Eventually, they found out that it was John that was taking them.
Um and he would eventually bury them underneath the house after he stole them from his mother.
Uh having been caught for this and scolded for it, uh he he didn't do this, you know, whatever bad habit this was,
he fell out of it for quite a few years. But, when he was about 15 or 16, he started doing something similar. But, it
wasn't his mother's undergarments. He would steal the undergarments of girls that lived in the neighborhood off of
the clothing lines. You know, they hang them out to dry. Mhm. And he would steal
them, and it was discovered that he would bury these underneath the house as well. The old panty snatcher. Now, John
attended several schools uh several high schools, and he never ended up graduating. Um his father did help him
out after school um by helping him get his first car. But, it was one of those situations where He helped him out by
kicking his ass? Well, it was one of those situations where you wonder if John Senior was actually trying to help
the boy or not, because it it was a situation where it's like, okay, Dad goes and gets the car for John. Mhm. And
now, John Gacy Jr. has to pay payments to his father. Well, what ends up happening in these situations and I'm
sure a lot of us have been there, but then dad ends up being in charge of the car. Right. You know, it's something
that you always has have to ask him if you can use your car to go here or there.
Um, you know, and he can remind you, "Well, you're behind on your payments." or "It's actually my car. No, you can't
take it to go here or there." Right, which you have the right to if you bought the car. Yeah, and so this ends
up to ends up leading to a whole bunch of fights and arguments regarding the vehicle. Well, John decides to run away
from home, which is a strange thing to say when a person is 18 or 19 years old that they ran away from home, but that's
how he describes it. And he ran away and he went to Las Vegas. Well, when he gets
to Las Vegas, this was not a really well-thought-out plan by John Gacy Jr. because he's in a strange town and he
has no money. What happens while he's there, he ends up going to the hospital. Okay.
And he's unable to pay the hospital bill. Uh, they wanted him to pay it was something small, you know, $36, which is
quite a bit more money back then, but he didn't have any money to pay this bill.
But, this will give you an idea of what kind of personality John Wayne Gacy had was that over the course of discussing
this bill and during his hospital visit, he ends up getting a job with the hospital.
Mhm. You know, and that's the kind of personality he had. He was he was the type that they say could talk to
anybody. And he ended up being to He could talk your panties right off. Or just take them off the clothesline.
Right. Um, but he ends up getting a job driving an ambulance. Now, he's eventually fired from this job. He
doesn't have it for very long because they discover that he has no high school diploma, which was of course, you know,
a requirement for this type of job. Now, he's in a strange town. He doesn't have
any friends. He doesn't have any family there. Remember, he's very close with his mother and his sisters.
And he's he's very depressed while he's in Las Vegas. So, the whole time he's in
Vegas, even though he ran away from home, he's starting to save back a little bit little bit of money so he can
return to his family and return to his home. I think anytime somebody moves away,
you know, especially in this situation. He He wants to move away to get away from his father. Mhm.
But he still wants to impress his father. Right. wants to do something that says, "See,
old man, I did something." Yeah, and you'll see this when he returns from Las Vegas. When he comes
home, now this is the early 1960s, he enrolled in a business college and he eventually graduated from this business
college. So, how did he get into college with no high school diploma? I think some of these schools, if you're
willing to pay the bill, Right. they'll figure out a way to get you through. So, while at business college,
he perfected his talent as a salesman. Um and he was a He's what people describe as a natural-born salesman. He
could talk his way in or out of almost anything. And he put his talents to work when he was hired at his first real job,
let's call it, after business school when he goes to work for a shoe company. Now, he
excelled in his position as a management trainee and not too long after he was transferred to manage a men's clothing
outlet in Springfield, Illinois. And at this time, he's going to actually find a
girl that's going to put up with him and marry her. Yes, this is September of '64. Gacy met what would be his his
soon-to-be wife. She was a co-worker. Her name is Marilyn Myers. Mhm. Now, her parents owned a string of Kentucky Fried
Chicken fast food restaurant franchises in Waterloo, Iowa. Fred Myers is her father,
uh Gacy's new father-in-law. He offered him a position with one of the franchises.
Mhm. Soon after that, Gacy and his new wife Well, a and a little quick point here is
I think, like we talked about, this is a guy that felt like he was a failure and
wanted to get ahead and wanted to be, you know, s- some kind of status. I mean, where maybe the status was
actually more important than the actual money. But also, now I met this girl and
her family actually owns businesses. Yeah, she has successful parents. Right, this could be a good step for my,
you know, my career. So, the Gacy the young Gacy family, well, Gacy and his wife anyway, are going to move to Iowa
so he can take one of these positions working for his new father-in-law. Um now, people in the restaurant biz
know this, restaurant managers work a lot of hours. Yeah. And Gacy was often working 12, 14, 16-hour days.
But he was a workaholic. Yes. And the plan was that he would learn the business and then take over the
franchise from his father-in-law someday. Yeah. When Gacy was not working, he was active in the Waterloo,
Iowa JCs. The JCs is a is a civic organization for people between the ages of 18 and 40. Right. It's a
not-for-profit organization that's that has like great leadership training, business development, management skills,
and community service is all involved with your work with the JCs. it's basically a good way to network.
Mhm. And and to get ahead. And he was really interested. He he actually started a committee, right?
Mhm. And what was that committee? I want you to say it. I'm not going to say it. W- what was the committee?
It was a it was a don't litter committee. And it was it was all about not littering. He
hated the litter bugs. I'm sorry. I just I just when when I read that I I just cracked up. But so
meanwhile, as he's doing this non-littering committee over at KFC, he is demanding that people call him the
Colonel. Yeah. You can't make this stuff up, people. Well, he he like the Captain's saying,
he worked tirelessly performing volunteer work through with the community through the JCs. It was there
that he had made most of his friends and he spent most of his free time working with the JCs. Shortly after arriving in
Iowa, Gacy and his wife, they had their first baby, a son, and they also had a daughter while they were living there.
Right. And his family members would say, you know, this is kind of the first time
that John Stanley Gacy is looking at John Wayne Gacy and saying, "Hey, that's my boy. My boy settled down. My boy has
a job. My boy is supporting his family. He's married. Um, you know, I I think John Stanley Gacy was kind of worried
about his son's sexuality. And so that now the fact that he's married and has kids, it's like, my boy
is doing good. And actually it was it was kind of the first time that John Stanley was proud of his son.
Well, and I think regarding the the mother's undergarments and maybe part of the reason why the father was so hard on
him, it it was not outwardly stated by her, but the belief by the family was that he
was wearing these these undergarments. And that might have led his father to believe certain things about his son.
But like you said, now he's he's out on his own. He's working for his his father-in-law and his successful
father-in-law. And he's he's working to build a family. Uh the Gacys John and his wife, they had
every reason to be happy uh during their first few years there in Iowa. They had a nice house in the
suburbs. Uh the kids were healthy. Uh Marilyn, his wife, enjoyed staying at home and taking care of the children.
And John had a good job and he was busy with the JCs. He was even working on a campaign for uh presidency of the local
JC chapter there. Yeah. Uh everything seemed almost too good to be true and in fact we end up learning that it indeed
it was. Um everything seemed to be looking good for John Wayne Gacy Jr. yet his lucky
streak would not last too much longer. Well, and I don't know if it was just a luck
streak as much as I think he had these desires or thoughts inside of him that he was now becoming not able to control.
Yeah, and there was some thoughts that that John Wayne Gacy might be homosexual.
Um this is kind of stemming from from some of the young guys working at the KFC restaurant.
Right. Uh they say that he is making passes at them um during work hours and while
working with with Gacy at the fast food chain. Um yet people close to him, you know, refused to believe the gossip.
Right. Well, here's a married man with with two kids. And at the same time that you have this going on at the Kentucky
Fried Chicken restaurant, you also have rumors spreading around town amongst the
JC members regarding Gacy's sexual preference. Mhm. Um and you know, there always seemed to be young boys, uh young
men were always in Gacy's presence. Right, but there's a couple odd things that are happening here. Okay, so
John Wayne Gacy is in charge of recruiting people and he would stop at nothing to recruit these people for the
JC and like we said it's this community organization and it's supposed to be about networking and helping the
community and John Wayne Gacy decides, well, I'll rent a hotel and I'll start showing these recruits illegal
pornography tapes. Or stag films, yeah. Right, so that then turns into not only are we going to
watch these tapes but we're going to hire prostitutes and have orgies. Mhm. So that's going on the whole time people
of this town of power are having these these orgy parties. And he's also starting at this point to to
swing with his wife as well. So you you got a lot of weird stuff going on. So but then the rumors about you know,
the JC starts saying, hey, well, we know he's doing some of this stuff but we're doing it too. The odd stuff is
that he's hanging around a lot of young boys. Mhm. Well, in with a lot of these organizations,
um the way that you can rise to the top very very quickly is by recruiting numbers and if you can recruit more
members than anybody else, then you become very popular and a person of power within inside that organization.
And on top of that if you recruited that person and then you have also this information to hang over their head.
Mhm. Oh, you know, you might I might not want to you know, rub me the wrong way because
you don't want me telling your wife about this. Well, and Gacy was getting large numbers of recruits like almost
unheard of numbers of recruits and it's believed that because he threw these wild crazy parties that a lot of these
people were signing up just to be part of these parties not so much to be really truly involved with the
organization itself. Now, in the spring of 1968, um Gacy ends up being indicted on
charges of sodomy. Now, in most jurisdictions, sodomy is a pretty broad, vague charge. The precise sexual acts
meant by the term sodomy are rarely spelled out in law, but are understood by courts to include any sexual act
deemed to be unnatural or immoral. Um now, there's there's two sides to this particular sodomy charge. Uh they they
go down here. Um do you want to give Yeah, so basically, the victim's accounts of the story is they're hanging
out with John Wayne Gacy, hanging out at John's house. John shows him a stag film,
and then gives him some alcohol. This would lead to some sexual advances. Mhm. Um you know, we we know the victim's
name, but we're not going to say it out of respect to them. So, obviously, there's this very inappropriate exchange
between adult male and basically a teenage boy. Mhm. The teenage boy just kind of lives with it
and doesn't tell anybody, and Gacy actually pays him, I think, 50 bucks, and also tells him, "Hey, by the way, I
have connections with the mob. So, if you want to you want to talk about this, uh you're going to be in for
some trouble, right?" Mhm. So, the boy starts acting strange, and eventually breaks down to his parents.
The problem with this is his father is is high up with the JCs, but just high up as a public
figure. Well, and some of those things align with with the version of the story that I'm going to tell. Now, this is
according to John Wayne Gacy, by the way. We'll throw that out there, and that's that's primarily why we're not
going to use this young man's name. But according to Gacy, the young man was uh homosexual young man, uh who didn't mind
having sex with men for money or sexual favors with men for money. Now, Gacy says that the two of them were involved,
that they would get together often, and for some reason the two ended up in a dispute about money, and that the
young man went to law enforcement and said that Gacy had forced him into some kind of sexual act. Gacy is picked up
for this. He denies all of the charges against him. Later, Gacy was charged with an additional charge with hiring a
another boy to beat up his accuser. Gacy offered some money to another young man
so that the young man could pay off his car loan, and in exchange he was going to beat up this kid. And the way that
this story goes down is that the the hired young man, he gets the kid into his car, he drives him to a wooded area
where he sprays him in the face and eyes with mace, and then he he tries to beat
him up. However, the boy he fights back, and he ends up breaking the boy's nose, and he manages to get
away. He then calls police and lets them know that he was attacked by this other
boy. So, when this boy is picked up and taken into police custody, he then, in exchange, gives them John
Wayne Gacy's name again, explaining that, you know, I was hired to attack this kid. Ultimately, the judge in this
situation sentenced John Wayne Gacy to 10 years in Iowa State Reformatory for Men, the maximum time that you are
allowed to give for this such offense. John Wayne Gacy was 26 years old at this time. Now, shortly after Gacy entered
prison, his wife divorced him on the grounds that he had violated their marriage vows. Now, while in prison, he
was he was considered a model prisoner. He remained non-violent and well-behaved, and he hoped for
Well, he was a plus-size model prisoner. And he hoped for an early parole. And after 18 months later, well, John Wayne
Gacy, his parole is approved. We'll get right back to the sick and twisted mind of John Wayne Gacy after this quick beer
break. All right, we're back. All right, cheers mates. And so John Wayne Gacy was living
in Iowa. He sentenced to 10 years in prison for sodomy charges. Mhm. And after only 18 months in prison, well,
they let John Wayne Gacy go. In June of 1970, John Wayne Gacy left prison and he
wanted to return to, well, just like Robert Johnson first said and later the Blues Brothers,
he returned to sweet home Chicago. Now, John Wayne Gacy never ended up having the type of relationship that he
desired with his father. Mhm. And he never got a chance to rectify that situation after getting out
of prison because John's father passed away during his time in prison. This affected John big time. I think
maybe because when John's dad dies, well, John is in prison and for sodomy charges, too. So, in a sense, isn't John
the homosexual stupid loser that his father always told him that he would be and that he was? Mhm. I think John
wanted to do something with his life to prove to his father that he wasn't stupid, that he wasn't a loser.
And maybe win his father's approval and affection at some point in his life. Right. And And he had that for a small
period. Mhm. With the family and everything, but now that's that's all wiped away. So, John Wayne Gacy moved
home. He moved in with his mother and obtained work as a chef in a Chicago restaurant. Uh Uh, a job that he seemed
to enjoy and he worked at it with quite a bit of enthusiasm. Right. And after a few months of living
with his mother, Gacy decided he wanted to buy a house, and his mother had been impressed with how he had adjusted to
life outside of the prison, and she decided to help him get a house. Now, this would be located just outside of
Chicago's city limits. And all of his family claimed that after John Wayne Gacy got out of prison, he had this
insatiable drive to be something and become something. Yeah, and it was in 1971 when John Wayne Gacy met Carol Huff. Um,
she was newly divorced mother of two. Well, hold on. Not to correct you, but that's not when they met. They were They
were friends from childhood, basically. School School friends. Well, they they they became engaged at some point, and I
believe this took place at some point in 1971. Uh, they weren't married until the
following year, but Carol Huff was a newly divorced mother of two. She had two daughters. Right. Um, you know,
you know, after the fact, people say that Gacy probably romanced uh, this woman who was in a state of emotional
vulnerability. Um, and that she she fell for him. She she says that she was attracted to Gacy's charm and his
generosity. Well, he's a hard worker. And she believed he would be a good provider for her and her children. She
was aware of Gacy's prison experience, um, yet she trusted that uh, he had changed his life around for the better.
Uh, and Carol and her daughters quickly settled into their new home with John Wayne Gacy. Well, and she also knew
about what he claimed to be uh, him being bisexual. It was around this same time that John Wayne Gacy
decided he wanted to go into business for himself. Um, and he was going to strike it out on his own. He began a
contracting business named PDM Inc., which stood for painting, decorating, and maintenance incorporated. Uh he
hired young teenage boys to work for him. He told his friends that he hired such young men to keep the cost low,
uh which is which is true. He could hire and pay guys that were 15 to 18 years old and pay them $5 an hour,
Right. which was almost double what kids could make at other jobs at that time. He
could pay them well, and at the same time he would be paying them quite a bit less than he would have to pay an adult
with a good amount of experience. However, that might not have been Gacy's only reason for hiring these teenage
boys. Well, I mean, and we and we've kind of gone back and forth on this um because a lot of these documentaries,
when they talk about Gacy, they never bring up the idea of pedophilia, really. You know, it's always just talks about,
you know, that he was attracted to teenage boys. Or young men. They Most of the time they say young men.
Yeah, and it and I think one, at the time of all this stuff going around, this is not a
commonly used term. Pedophilia did not become a commonly commonly used term until the '80s.
Mhm. Um and probably the late '80s. Well, and we talked about that when we covered the Johnny Gosch case. You know,
that the investigators were using the word pedophilia or pedophile, and parents were saying they didn't know
what that term meant. They had not heard that term before, and this was taking place in the early '80s. And this was
different times. I mean, there was a lot of people that there's a lot of people that did not even finish high school.
They'd just go straight to work. Mhm. So, we were kind of talking earlier about how maybe they don't use the term
pedophilia because back then, you know, 17 18-year-old boy is back then was a man. Could have been
looked at as in the public's eye as a man because, you know, it seems to me like you have this
you have this mindset that that maybe, of course, 18 is the separation. You know, 18 is the legal divider between a
child and an adult. However, but in the public's eye, in the you know, the general consens- consensus I got was
that a man and a boy were more separated by a high school diploma rather than being 18 because, like you said, a lot
of times people would get that high school diploma and they would go work for their father in their father's
business or they would go off on a trade. Uh they would start their own business. They would go into some form
of work that could end up being their career, their adult life. Yeah, I think you see this a lot lot like with movies
like Dazed and Confused and stuff like that. You graduated high school. It is time. You're entering the real world.
It's time to become a man. Mhm. Well, the Gacys threw a lot of parties. Uh and when it came to parties,
well, John Wayne Gacy, he was the man. He he knew what to do. He knew how to throw a great party. Uh he would often
host block parties and yard parties. A lot of them were were themed parties. Um you know, he did some things like um
I think he did like a Western-style party and a Southern Jubilee and a Hawaiian party. Uh so, these big
extravagant parties that he would throw. And anyway, at Gacy's parties, he always
had a lot of booze, poker games, you know, maybe some pot. And remember we said that he was a member of the JCs.
Well, this is something that carried on once he moved back to Chicago. He was a member of the JCs, but he was also a
member of the Democratic Party as well. Yeah, so uh Ted Bundy was a Republican and John Wayne Gacy was a Democrat. So,
that's why I'm an independent. But Gacy was able to get more people to sign up for the JCs and more people to
sign up for the Democratic Party than anyone else in the area. And he was up to his old tactics.
Uh he was he was even given some awards, you know, like man of the year awards and things like that.
Mhm. And you know, he did this uh for his work with the JCs, but but also with the Democratic Party. He was throwing
these extravagant parties, but they were also those parties that we talked about
before. Right. You know, where the stag film Yeah, it was a lot of booze, maybe some
pot, some gambling, but it would end up with these stag films, maybe hire some strippers, uh some sometimes escorts and
things like that. Yeah, and this let's put this into perspective a little bit. This is
people in the community getting together, people of power in the community getting together, and being
persuaded by stag films. Yeah, and other foolishness. Right. I mean, it's it's that stuff exist. Yeah.
That's to me is creepy as hell. It's weird. And it but again, for Gacy, it's ways to get his membership enrollment
up. Um and and to me, it also shows that some of these newcomers, these newbies,
seem to be there, in my opinion, more for these crazy parties rather than to actually be involved in the community
itself. Yeah, these animals are probably littering everywhere. Well, it's around
this same time that John Wayne Gacy unleashed his new creation, uh Pogo the Clown. He he he becomes a
clown. And I know at different parts during his little clown experiment or whatever he was doing,
that that he did go under different names, but I believe Pogo the Clown is the most accepted one that that he, you
know, fancied himself. Yeah, most popular one. But hey, Gacy, put on your cup, son. Put on your cup.
Well, uh he, like I said, he unleashed his new creation of Pogo the Clown. Get John Wayne Gacy was a clown. I'm going
to unleash a punch to your nuts. He entertained children at parties and even volunteered at local hospitals, you
know, to try to cheer up the kids. And and maybe it's just because what we know now about John Wayne Gacy, but looking
at those pictures, I mean, other than him being fat, you know, other than him being a a pudgy guy,
prison model. he still he still a creepy-looking clown to me. I don't know if it's Again, I don't know if it's cuz
we know about him or if Well, one of the things that I noticed was, you know, the mouth, what the way
he painted the mouth, that most clowns paint circular mouths. Uh And his head points. Yeah, he had
points at the end. Mhm. Uh Yeah, you'd think but, you know, and look, you'd think, you know, weight aside, you
think that maybe, you know, Santa Claus is jolly, Mhm. right? So that maybe it would be a jolly clown, but I think
because of the points on the mouth is really kind of what gave it away. And also, you know, John Wayne had these um
these pointy eyebrows, Mhm. you know, just that he he inherited. So, I think those those two elements is kind
of what makes Pogo a little creepo. Mhm. Well, and before we get too far down on
another road, let's go ahead and go through this portion of John Wayne Gacy's life. Him and his wife start
having marital problems. And it's believed that some of this stemmed from her picking up on Gacy's homosexual
desires. Mhm. Now, we had said earlier that, you know, she was aware of his prison
sentence. Well, he was aware she was aware of his bisexuality. Yeah. And he's prob- she's probably aware of his
version of his prison sentence and why he was guilty. Right. But yeah, she's aware that he he is
bisexual. But at the same time, you know, she's also finding magazines around the house with lots of naked men
in them, books about gay fantasies, and he's very casual nonchalant about kind of leaving these all over the house and
in almost every room of the house as well. But at the Well, and I don't think that
matters if it's, you know, homosexual thoughts or just heterosexual thoughts. I think if you're with somebody
there's a lot of times that you'd be offended. You know, like if you're just you know, there's Playboy magazines
everywhere. I think at some point your wife might go, "Hey, can you just pick this up? Yeah.
you have got to throw it in my face like this?" Well, you have to show respect for your
spouse as well as there's the children that are in the house as well. You know, you can't just you shouldn't just be
having these things laying around. But at the same time, he's also becoming a little more violent. His his personality
is changing as far as she is concerned. And at this point he's yelling a lot. He's he's even throwing furniture at
times when he gets upset. He's becoming his father. Yes, this sort of thing is what's going on. And it
eventually Carol would file for divorce. The the couple's divorce became final in
1976. So, yeah, drinking is getting heavier. Mhm. He's becoming more violent. Uh he's having more sexual desires.
And this is all going to come to a big flame. Yeah, and the two of them have basically
no romance between the two of them for quite some time as well. Now, I wanted to go down that road before we we got to
this because we're going to start the romance road? Yeah. Oh, okay. I love you, Captain. Now, we're going to start
talking and introducing some new people here. But these are certainly key persons to this story and to this case.
And the first one that I want to introduce is 17-year-old Johnny Butkovich. I think he's been waiting all
day to say that name. Old Butkovich. but anyway, Johnny worked for John Wayne Gacy. That's my last name.
And in fact Captain Butkovich. In fact, they worked a lot of hours together and they even
hung out together off of the clock. Yeah. at one point, they are around each other
so much and so often that people started referring to them as Big John and Little
John. And Johnny, or Little John to some, was like most young men. He was He was into
cars. He took great pride in his '68 Dodge. Mhm. Uh not only did he drive it and race it, but he was always working
on the vehicle as well. And having this job allowed him to, you know, work on this vehicle and spend some money on his
car. Uh Johnny did remodeling work for Gacy at PDM Contractors, uh position that he enjoyed, a position that paid
him well. And you also have your boss that's probably getting you booze. Mhm. And you couldn't get booze at the time.
Mhm. You know, so everybody knows, you know, when you're 19, 20 and you're trying to get some booze, everybody
knows their 21 or 22-year-old friend that would get them booze. Right. Right? You keep that contact close. Right. Even
as close as they were, however, their their working relation- relationship ended abruptly when Gacy refused to pay
Johnny for two weeks worth of work. Right. Um angered at Gacy, uh and angered that
he had withheld his pay, Johnny went over to his boss's house. This was with two friends to try to scare Gacy and to
try to collect his money. Um when Johnny confronted Gacy about the paycheck, Gacy refused to pay him. And
now, of course, we have a large argument. Johnny threatened that he was going to tell the authorities that John
Wayne Gacy was not deducting taxes from the earnings. Gacy was enraged and he screamed at him
and we have this big fight going on. But what ends up happening is Johnny and his
friends basically realized that there wasn't a whole lot that they could do about this situation. And they
eventually you're kind of [ __ ] out of luck at this point. Yeah, he's just not going to give you
any money. Mhm. And at the end of the day they end up leaving Gacy's house. Johnny dropped off his friends at their
homes and he drove away. And then he's never seen alive again. But later on we'll have a
odd explanation of this story coming from Gacy himself. Yes. The next person we want to talk about is Michael Bonnin.
Now, he was about 17 years old as well. And he disappeared in June of '76. This is a situation where he was supposed to
catch a train. He was going to meet his step-father's brother at some location. Mhm. Authorities are not certain that
Michael ever got on that train. But they know that he never made it to meet his step-father's brother. He just
simply disappeared. He's not seen after that. Right. And now in the same area we have
a we have more boys going missing. Yes. The next boy is Billy Carroll Jr. He's the kind of kid that was always
getting into trouble at the age of Billy At the age of nine, he was in a juvenile home for stealing a
purse. Mhm. At the age of 11, he was caught with a gun and he got into more trouble. Now, Billy in and out of
trouble his whole life. He spent most of his time on the streets in Uptown Chicago. Now, at the age of about 16,
Billy was making money by arranging meetings between teenage boys and adult clientele for money.
That's definitely putting him in a compromising position. Yes, because I don't know if it was because of Billy's
little business that he had, but he knew John Wayne Gacy. And ultimately, just like Johnny and Michael that we just
spoke of, Billy also disappeared suddenly. This was on June 13th of 1976. Billy left his home and he was never
seen alive again. Do we have any other boys that went missing? We have Gregory Godzik. Um he actually had a job with
PDM Inc. Uh he worked for for John Wayne Gacy. And he didn't mind the odd jobs that he was picking up or the work that
he would do. But on December 12th, 1976, uh Gregory dropped his date off at her home. A girl that he had had a crush on
for some time and had been seeing her for a little bit. And he drove off, she says, in the direction of his house. Um
but the following day, police found Gregory's car. This was a 1966 Pontiac. But Gregory was nowhere to be found. Um
he was he was 17 years old at the time. In January of 1977, 19-year-old John Seac
also disappeared, much like the other young men before him. He had driven off in his 1971 Plymouth Satellite, and he
was never seen alive again. But interestingly enough, a short while after the young man vanished, another
teenager was picked up by police in a 1971 Plymouth Satellite while trying to leave a gas station without paying for
the gasoline. Right. The young man was a one Michael Rossi and said that the man
that he worked with could explain the situation. This being the situation with the vehicle. Right. Uh the man that he
worked with was John Wayne Gacy. And when police met with Gacy, Gacy explained to the police that Zeke had
sold him the car, sold John Wayne Gacy the car, and that John Zeke wanted to run away and he needed some money to
take off and to get set up elsewhere. So, he sold John Wayne Gacy the car before he hitchhiked out of town.
Gacy then went on to explain that he gave the car to his employee Michael Rossi in trade for some labor. So,
rather than paying him for a bunch of work that Rossi did, he ended up giving him the car. Well, I don't think a lot
of this stuff would have happened if he was like on a sexual offender website, you know.
Yeah, some kind of registry. Right, because all this stuff that happened in Iowa is not carrying over to Chicago.
No, it so we don't really have that on his record. And obviously, cops are getting
a little suspicious at this point. Mhm. Well, and and the thing we've seen with Gacy, too, is yeah, there might be
some people that are aware of this sodomy charge that that he had in Iowa or aware that he spent some time in
prison. Because the thing with Gacy is he liked to not only did he like to talk to people, but he also liked to lie and
embellish stories about himself. So, I could see him possibly telling some of these
17, 18-year-old boys that yeah, you know, you know what kind of I'm a real man. I've been to prison before, you
know. Um oh, what were you But now you got to answer the question, well, what were you
in prison for? And um I'm a real man because I like real boys. Yeah, but but then you get the John
Wayne Gacy version of why he was in prison, you know, embellishing and probably just lying about the situation.
Uh we also have Robert Gilroy. Um he was an avid outdoorsman, uh camper. He loved horseback riding. On
September of 1977, uh he's 18 years old at this time. Gilroy was supposed to catch a bus with
uh some friends to go horseback riding, but he never shows up for this event. Now, Gieroy's father That's like the
second one that was trying to catch a bus. Yeah, Gieroy's father is a police sergeant, a Chicago police sergeant at
the time, and he immediately began searching for his son, and they un- unleashed a full-scale investigation
with big-time searches. Uh you know, even though they did all this effort, nothing turned up, and when the leads
stopped coming in, Robert Gieroy was still missing. While this is all going on, John Wayne Gacy has an employee by
the name of David Cram. Right. Well, according to the documentary, the guy's name is David Cram. Now, let's talk
about this for a little bit. Cuz you know, we both watched a bunch of docos on him.
And uh there's just some facts that are just not lining up. Right. Some of the names Some of Some of the
stories are the same, but some of the names aren't the same. Well, it You know what I wonder about
that, Captain, is when you when you watch some of these documentaries, okay? First of all,
a a John Wayne Gacy documentary, there's a whole batch of them out there. I mean,
there's a ton of them out there. But But they're typically what? Like 40 minutes
to maybe 1 hour long. This is a much longer and much necessary to be longer story to tell than 40 minutes or an hour
long. There's a whole lot more of a story here. And the thing that I worry about with some of these documentaries,
we've seen it in other ones, you know, that we see on Netflix and Amazon Prime and things like that.
Sometimes they lump some of these stories together. Right. And so, names get mis- you know,
they get mashed together, timelines get a little bit blurry. Um So So, this story could be coming
from David, or it could be coming from It could be coming from I used the name Michael Rossi earlier. Now the thing
here is Captain, um you know the story with Gacy gets even more convoluted because he lived in Iowa
for a while and then he lived in Chicago for a while and a lot of the stuff that
he did he did in both places in both locations. So that makes it more confusing but when you watch there's one
documentary in particular where they name this character David Cram. Now mind you he is it's one of those situations
you know they put the light behind him he's sitting in a chair his face is kind of darkened out you can't see his face
real well and then they just kind of they flash this name David Cram. Well his story goes like this so whether it's
David or if it's this Rossi character Or or some other name altogether. Right. The the story is that the crawl space
Mhm. He is originally hired to dig trenches in this crawl space. He doesn't know why. Now what can happen in like a
half basement if you have a crawl space you can dig out that crawl space and then make your basement a full basement.
That's a very tough thing to do but you can do that. So he doesn't really know why he's
digging these trenches in this crawl space but he does. There there is actually depending on who
you talk to there's a few different stories as to why Gacy wanted these trenches
dug in this crawl space. Right. So One of the stories being that they're they were going to insert some kind of
pipes Right. that were going to go down and they needed the trenches for pipes. The other
story being that there was a foul odor that was in the house and that Gacy was telling people that it was coming from
this crawl space because it would typically get saturated with water Right. and water would just kind of sit in
there and it would just it would unleash this foul odor throughout the entire home and he was trying to rid the house
of this of this structural problem that was going on. Right so this kid is you know, he's like
16 years old, 17 years old, digging these trenches in the crawl space of uh John Wayne Gacy's house.
Eventually, he rents a room from him. So, he would come home and and he he lived there for a short period of time
working for for John and doing maybe probably working in the community for other people as well.
But, one night he comes home and and this this I think super creepy. He comes home and John is sitting there
in his Pogo outfit. Mhm. You know, dressed full clown getup. And he's drinking. He's like, "Hey, join
me. Let's have some drinks. Let's smoke some pot." And Gacy was a big By this point,
he's probably a pretty big drinker. Um you know, I'd heard stories that he would drink full glasses of vodka and
things like that. Right. So, he he's he's pretty wasted already. He's lit. And David is drinking with him.
And he brings out these handcuffs. And he's kind of showing him a trick like how he Here's how you put on the
handcuffs and here's how you get out of it. Like, you remember how we talked about
like when you're a kid, you have the fake handcuffs? Mhm. And then you have these little like little switch on them
on the side so you can just push that little lever and it opens up. So, we kind of talked about that he
probably had two sets of handcuffs. And he probably had a trick handcuff like, "Here.
See, watch me. I put on the handcuffs and look, I can get out of it. Mhm. You try them on."
So, when he goes to try them on, he can't get out of it. And he said, "Well, how do you get out of this thing?" He
goes, "Well, you got to know the trick." He goes, "Well, what's the trick?" He said, "Well, the trick is you got to
have a key. Right?" And he starts laughing. So, he's sitting there in his full clown getup,
right? Just laughing like a little kid. Like, "Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
I got you. I got you. And now at this point he's poking him. Poking him. I got you. You can't get out. Just acting like
a kind of a crazy person. So, this individual that is tied up, he then says, you know, you got to let me out, you
know. And he's still being nice at this point. They're still kind of playful. Yeah, John's being weird, dancing around
with the polka outfit on. But this guy eventually says, hey look, you got to let me out or I'm going to
kick your ass. And this sets Gacy into a rage. Right? So now he is fighting basically for his life against Gacy,
but he's in handcuffs. And he basically is able to, because Gacy is so intoxicated, he's able to
knock Gacy over, grab the key, run to the room that he's renting, get himself out, he leaves, and a couple
days later moves out um of John Wayne Gacy's house. The crazy thing to me is could you
imagine a big, you know, Gacy wasn't tall, but he was a bigger guy. He was He was short and stocky.
Right. Yeah, but still a lot of mass, and he's drunk, and he goes into a rage, and that's not the creepy part. The
creepy part is you're in handcuffs. Yeah. You know, I don't mind uh punching you in your face, John Wayne
Gacy, if if you know, but if my hands are tied behind my back, I'm [ __ ] out of luck.
You know, good luck fighting that fight. Yeah. It's just every time I hear that story, I've heard it maybe three or four
times, but every time I hear it, it's just always just uh hands get a little sweaty.
Mhm. Well, here here's another creepy story for you here, Captain. And this took
place in May of 1978, I'm sorry. Chicago, Illinois. A man by the name of Jeff Ringnal. Now, he had
recently returned from a vacation to Florida. He decided to visit an area called Newtown. It's a popular area of
Chicago because he wanted to check out some of the many popular bars they had there as well as disco clubs. In that
area. Now, while bar hopping and walking through the area, he sees a black Oldsmobile.
Now, inside the vehicle is a heavy set driver. And the driver leaned out from the window and he's complimenting
this young man on his unseasonably, you know, how unseasonably tan he is. And this sparks up a conversation. And
they continued with some small talk and eventually the driver then asked if Jeff
wanted to smoke a joint and ride around in his car and they'd just ride around town and smoke a couple joints. Well,
this sounded like a good idea to Jeff, so he hopped in the car. This sounds like an awful idea. They
drive off. They're talking, they're smoking, driving around when all of a sudden the
heavy set driver attacks Jeff. He grabbed him and quickly shoved a rag over his face. Now, the rag was dosed
with chloroform. Jeff lost consciousness. Now, Jeff was kind of going in and out of
consciousness for quite some time. At one point while he was awake, he could see street signs and, you know,
the car still moving. And he's trying to see these street signs and try to figure
out where the car is going, maybe where he's being taken to. One, he doesn't know this area. Right.
And and of course, he would only be awake for a short period of time, for a short little
spurts of time before blacking out again. On one of these times that he came to, the stranger again grabbed him
and covered up his face with this chloroform-soaked rag. Right. And he passed out again. At some point, Jeff
remembers being inside of a home. And the driver was there, and they both are naked. At one point, Jeff remembered
seeing on the floor several several dildos. And the stranger Oh, [ __ ] was threatening him and telling him
how he was going to use them. Uh Jeff No. was viciously raped and tortured for hours. Um and
but thank God that he had been drugged and knocked out for most of it. Now, the next morning, Jeff awoke from
uh from these blackouts. But but when he wakes up, he's now fully clothed, and he's propped up against a statue in
Chicago's Lincoln Park. He was in in a lot of pain. Right. An amazing amount of pain. And he went to the
hospital, where he ended up staying there for 6 days. Jesus Christ. Now, during this hospital
stay, Jeff reported the abduction and the rape to police, but he could only provide the police with a little
information regarding the attack because he was blacking out over and over again.
Mhm. Um he he could recall the vehicle, a black Oldsmobile. He gave them a description of the
heavy-set man that was driving the vehicle. And he could tell them basically useless information about some
of the details of the inside of the house, like the the color of the carpeting or patterns on the carpeting.
Right. You're in that city of Chicago. Yeah, and here's the thing. This is this, you
know, you're in a whole lot of pain. You're in the hospital for 6 days. That should explain to most of us how
how beaten up this guy was. He's in the hospital for 6 days, and you're giving this report, and you can you you're
probably mad at yourself because you can only remember little bits of information.
And the police basically they they outwardly tell Jeff that they were not hopeful that they
would be able to find the guy that did this, let alone convict him of anything, because because really they didn't have
any information or much to confirm who this abductor could be. Jeff suffered several skin lacerations,
burns, and he also suffered from permanent liver damage believed to be caused from
the the chloroform. And of course he suffered severe emotional trauma as well. Well,
obviously. But he was he was fortunate enough to be alive because what what Jeff didn't know was
that the man who attacked and raped him, well, not many of the people escaped that man. And very few victims of his
ever survived. Now, here's one crazy thing though. After Jeff got out of the hospital and
after he was able to kind of shake off some of this trauma and get over the fear of the whole thing that had just
happened, he decided he was going to go back to that side of town because it was kind of
like a party side of town. It was it was a place where people, you know, smoke a
little dope, maybe you pick up a girl or pick up a guy, whatever. And he thought, you know what? I'm going
to go back to that side of town because he had this he had this black Oldsmobile
vehicle that he that he got into. He had the image of that thing tattooed on his
brain. He knew Well, he had the the, you know, the vision of whoever attacked him. Mhm. You know, just if I can see
this guy again, I I can catch him. Yeah. And he ultimately went back to that side
of town several times uh until he ended up spotting the vehicle that he believed was the one
that abducted him. Right. And he wrote down the license plate and he was later able to provide that license plate
number to the Chicago PD. There's a lot more that we have to get to tomorrow, the complete unraveling of this
psychopath, John Wayne Gacy. So, join us back here tomorrow in the garage and for
everything true crime go to truecrimegarage.com. And until next time, be good, be kind,
and don't litter.

John Wayne Gacy /// Part 1 /// 105

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

John Wayne Gacy was liked by most who knew him. He was a sharp businessman who had spent his time building up his contracting company, hosting elaborate parties, and entertaining children at hospitals. People thought of him as a generous, friendly, and hard-working man. However, there was another side that few had ever witnessed... Or at least lived to tell about. For several years John Wayne Gacy viciously tortured, raped and murdered more than thirty young men, who would later be discovered in his home and in the local river. This is the story of a community leader who was called the most hated man in America. He also has earned the name "the killer clown".

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Brief Summary

John Wayne Gacy's life, crimes, and the investigation into his murders are discussed in detail.

Key points

Discovery of Bodies. Police find decomposed remains of three boys under Gacy's house, suspecting more bodies.
John Wayne Gacy's Childhood. Exploring Gacy's troubled upbringing and relationship with his father.
Gacy's New Life in Iowa. Gacy marries and starts a family, seemingly turning his life around.
Gacy's Dark Desires. Rumors swirl about Gacy's sexual preferences and his inappropriate behavior with young men.
Gacy's Indictment. In 1968, Gacy is indicted on sodomy charges, leading to a tumultuous legal battle.
Life After Prison. Gacy is released after 18 months, but his past continues to haunt him.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's suspected because of the looks of the area down in the crawl space.

Police suspicion about more bodies being buried.

4:44WatchDec 8, 2022

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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