Veronica Gedeon & the Easter Sunday Murders (Part 2) | Morbid | Podcast | Forensic Files

hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this right here folks is [Music] morbid it's more heyy we've been getting
so Wy in the introductions lately we have we've been doing a lot of recordings yeah I think so we're just
like got to make it new and fresh I know and I forgot even to tell you guys at the top of the cuz this is
part two obviously of the Gideon family murders um I forgot to even tell them at
the top of part one that it was a Tupa oh it's a Tupa yeah by the way if you're here for part two hey this is part two
it's it's t i mean there a lot yeah there's a lot going on it's like Michaela says go to P two go to P two
that was good that was good on both ends that was real good my favorite is when she does her eyeliner and she says nice
and Shar that eyelin could cut a man I love it I love it I love it I love it makeup
makeup Kaya I don't know I feel we're Wy so crazy it's been a silly day in this pod
laboratory it has been a silly day a good day if you will um and people keep seeing doubles of me in my house yeah
that's occurring so I I told this story like probably like a month or so ago now
that I saw a double of you yeah but then Mikey admitted to us today that he also
saw a double of me he seemed a double weeks ago he didn't even tell us he didn't even want scare us the man didn't
even inform us he was he was scared that's scary what's what's going on with you that's what I'm wondering someone
tell me I think it's cuz you're spooky that I liked that um reason it's like the X Files of it
all that explanation worked for me yeah cuz Elena was like well why isn't anybody seeing tubles of John in the
house and I said because he's not spooky he's not he's really not you on the other hand yeah spooky as
[ __ ] so you know spooky as [ __ ] and I don't live here yeah I mean I spend more time
here than I do at my own home but yeah I'm just surpr I want to know what it means what does it mean cuz I'm like why
am i showing up Mikey said that it's because I say out loud a lot that I wish there was more of me to do the things
that I need to get done maybe wish it I'm a manifesting queen maybe you manifested something um some kind of
[ __ ] [ __ ] though something ominous cuz I don't love that any any thread that I
found about like what doppelganger things are is like not good well damn I'm sorry to inform you it didn't I
didn't like the feeling I didn't feel threatened like when I saw she who shall be named but I felt scared after the
experience yeah I don't know maybe and I only saw her very quick I don't she didn't like me she didn't like and
that's weird cuz you really likeed me heard yeah so you've heard made a career together and [ __ ] yeah it's true I mean
I mean ask some people and they'll say different but uh I was like what I was like no you
can't argue that no you can't argue that but yeah I don't know so I guess we're just going to ride this uh going to ride
ride this train all the way and see what happens see who next sees a doble anger
of me in my own house what if your [ __ ] kid see it though that would bump me out then I'd have something to
say to her that's when me and her would come to blows oh my God what if it's like that
episode of Buffy though where like he intended to split Buffy in half but he split Xander in half but what if
somebody actually actually did split you in half and you have to fight to the death and only the weak the weaker one
dies [ __ ] am I the weaker one or no I only saw her for a second she's ominous and she can appear
and reappear so meend to believe but I have to I don't know I think I'm the stronger one I'm the one getting [ __ ]
done over here she doesn't seem to be doing much so oh I would not say that out loud I mean she's me she's part of
you yeah she's not you though well she needs to pull her weight around here is what I'm saying so I'm leaving I'm going
I'm going elsewhere this weekend she needs to start pulling her weight maybe take some stuff off my hands that would
be great don't say that oh God rip your now she's going to rip your fingerprints
and [ __ ] I haven't even seen her I have and so is Michael Ash's face is like Terror cuz I
don't [ __ ] with that kind of [ __ ] like I'll talk about that kind of stuff like
I I enjoy like talking about like Paranormal and stuff and that kind of thing but I don't [ __ ] with it like I
don't talk to it I don't uh-uh yeah I mean like hey she hasn't bothered me so that's I'm saying I'm trying to
say that it's fine like you're not doing anything wrong it's cool you're just kind of I'm just want to figure out what
you're all about there you go is really what it is I'm just trying to figure out
where you came from okay you know let's move on before we get this whole dug any
further we'll move on I'll maybe I should why don't I pull a tarot card yeah do it and see what do you have a
deck maybe I could sound bow after everyone's like maybe you could just tell us the everyone's like it is part
two where you just tell us I'm just going to pull one out at random yeah like put feel what feels right
though hold on eny you made me double think it like close your eyes and feel the Vibes what' you get did you get
death no what'd you get I [ __ ] hate that card I don't like it Mikey's going to [ __ ] himself
when he doesn't have noise cancelling headphones on if you guys know anything about the
tower just try to explain that to us in this situation pray for me I guess all right we got to get into this I'm
[ __ ] terrified and I'm leaving after this get into this this gets Wy let's get into this you thought this
discussion at the top was Wy part two is Wy it's real wly so in part one we got familiar with the dynamic of the Gideon
family and unfortunately found out that two of the four of them Veronica Ronnie and her mother Mary had been murdered
along with a border in their apartment Frank Burns the police were pretty stumped because
there was no sign of for entry no one had alarmed the otherwise territorial dog Tui and every suspect or Person of
Interest they had so far including the father of the family Joe Gideon whom they beat mercilessly yeah uh had not
panned out but taking a closer look at Ronnie's diary and the man who she simply referred to as be eventually gave
them the lead that they needed at the end of part one we found out that a possible suspect for the be mentioned
was Bob Irwin who had actually been pretty obsessed with Ronnie's sister Ethel and was a previous border at their
home not this home not the apartment that they lived in currently the one where they were killed but the bigger
one now it's actually pretty unclear why no one had thought to mention Bob Irwin
when the diary was discovered and investigators were seeking a man with a B initial but anyone with even the
slightest familiarity with Bob Irwin probably would have thought he made a good suspect
born in 1906 in Pasadena California Bob's life had been really really difficult from the start his father
Benjamin Irwin was the founder of I [ __ ] you not fire baptized Holiness Church you didn't just put that into
like a random generator online that came out fire baptized Holiness Church which
was not a church no I I didn't I was like please tell me that is not real no it was a antical Christian cult
operating out of Northern California Benjamin the dad eventually abandoned the family it was when Bob was still
very young leaving him and his two brothers in the sole custody of their mother Mary who was equally fanatical
and put her religion before literally everything else in her life including the care of her children oh yeah that's
sad it's his story Bob story I will tell you right off the bat is very sad oh that's
terrible but left to their own devices Bob and his brothers ran completely wild uh I think it's VI vidalin or vidalin
and P Irwin they were Bob's older and younger brothers they quickly fell into a life just filled with a ton of
criminal activity they would spend nearly the rest of their lives in and out of Reform schools jails and prisons
and Bob too had his own run-ins with the law and spent a few years in a reform school but unlike his brothers he had a
natural talent for art and sculpture ah which earned him some sympathy with adults I had a feeling mhm but
unfortunately while he did indeed prove to be actually an immensely talented artist by the time he reached his late
teens Bob was also beginning to show signs of very severe mental illness and delusional thinking ah in his late teens
and early 20s his talent had actually earned him the admiration of several influential people in the artor and he
actually earned apprenticeships with some pretty notable artists of the time but due to his paranoia and explosive
anger Tendencies those opportunities almost always fell apart not long after they started like he just had these big
out could handle it mhm now in 1932 he was sent to the Burke Foundation which was a voluntary psychiatric facility in
White Plains New York and after 9 months at the facility he left the clinic claiming that he quote left to get away
from a couple of female employees who began to make life miserable for him after he rebuffed their sexual
demands but in truth a social worker later clarified that Bob had left the facility because he had gotten into
quote so many violent quarrels with other patients that he feared his behavior would lead to Serious
consequences ah a little different so Bob moved into Mary Gideon's boarding house on East 53rd Street in October of
1932 so that's 5 years before the murders coincidentally also right around the time that Ronnie started her diary
that the police had found in 193 but it was there that he met and quickly became enamored with Ethel Gideon in
many ways Ethel reminded Bob of his last girlfriend Alice Ryan who he was still very obsessed with Once he'd settled in
at The Boarding House Bob tried to resume his art but he found that his thoughts of Alice and preoccupation with
sex dominated his mind day and night preventing him from producing any kind of work so I want to give you a little
bit of a trigger warning for her self harm here finally after a week of torment and no productivity Bob decided
to try to rid himself of these sexual preoccupations once and for all according to Bob on Wednesday October
27th he went into the bathroom at the boarding house and put a rubber band around his penis and went for a walk
around town in order to numb the area when he got back to the boarding house he then went into the bathroom and
attempted to remove his penis with a Gillette razor uh he boy got about halfway there but
obviously that was incredibly painful even having numbed the area so he was not able to finish but he managed to get
himself to the from the house to the Belleview hospital with the rubber band actually kind of acting as a tourniquet
to keep him from bleeding out uh he checked in under the name James Adamson and calmly asked the night and turn to
finish the job oh boy the turn simply bandaged him up yep and told him to come back during
the daytime when the surgeon would be on so Bob came back several hours later still insisting that they remove his
penis completely but instead the surgeon applied antiseptic and sutured the very
serious wound and then admitted Bob to the psychiatric ward where he remained for nearly 5 months and after that after
his stint there he was transferred to Rockland State Hospital in Upstate New York oo
that is rough yeah and that is very very sick yeah he this man very sick severely mentally ill and it's it's
sad that like not much was able to be done about it to keep him in a place and from like to to keep him one from
hurting himself cuz obviously he's inclined to do that and to keep him from hurting anyone else this man is not
somebody who should have lived on his own and like been on the streets unfortunately absolutely not like there
was there needed to be some serious help happening here and the system obviously
I mean it's the 30s like there's not yeah not a lot in the way of mental health not at all like anything so I
mean we were just talking about you know the Marian Parker case which was in the
20s but it's like we're not far off from there and they were still treating it in
a very different way than they treat it now and it's interesting actually cuz like when we get to the trial part of
this it's we were like talking about it in the Maran Parker case and how William
uh William Edward Hickman how he was like very clearly trying yeah he was making a valiant effort to see ins yeah
to act like he was in this case he's not trying he just is like this is very clear this is coming from a
very genuine place of not sayane so we're literally like taking trial that we just discussed and turning it on his
head how it would go if he really was yeah it's interesting that we end up doing these back to back cuz we don't
usually tell each other about our cases until they happen yeah but anyway during
his time at Rockland uh Rockland excuse me Bob proved an unruly patient he made several Escape attempts including one
incident when he made it all the way to downtown Manhattan holy [ __ ] to the apartment of his previous psychiatrist
from Belleview oh [ __ ] that luckily he was able to be apprehended and return to
Rockland before anything happened Jesus at Rockland it that was the place where he received his first official diagnosis
of heop frenia it was a subtype of schizophrenia which the psychiatrist at the time described as being
characterized quote by foolish mannerisms senseless laughter delusions and regressive Behavior this diagnosis
actually no longer appears in the diagnos was G to say yeah not it's not in the DSM the diagnostic statistical
Manual of mental disorders now we would just classify it as simple schizophrenia
yeah I was going to say because I've never heard of that yeah it's interesting it's dated but the symptoms
of delusional and disordered thinking and distorted reality among others are still acknowledged in the schizophrenia
diagnosis so now he would just be called schic or treated as such so after a few
years of bouncing around from one boarding house to another Bob reappeared at the door of Mary Gideon's boarding
house in the early summer of 1934 just a few months after e Ethel's marriage to her first husband was anol because
remember she had a teen marriage of her own yeah that was like a thing yeah I think it was a thing to get out of the
house yeah cuz I think the house was very dysfunctional yeah for sure so now that he was once again in Ethel's
presence Bob felt particularly inspired actually because she was like I said she
was beautiful and he began sculpting again he was devoted to Ethel from the moment that he returned to the house but
while she liked the attention and the Adoration that she re received from him she was never actually willing to commit
to a relationship with him for her it was just kind of like a fun thing yeah just like flirting was he she found him
to be like an attractive man a lot of people actually did yeah so she's just like you know what yeah we're just
having a flirtation it's a fun thing but she never saw it yeah seriously so and actually by that time she had already
started dating Joe cner who she ended up marrying and who was obviously far more
stable than Bob and somebody that she could see a future with yeah but despite her intention to marry Joe
she still indulged Bob flirting with him and actually allowing him to sculpt her
yeah so it was while he was living with The Gideons that Bob began experiencing delusional thinking and started
believing strongly in what he called visualization which he believed was the ability to manifest things purely by
mental power and focus okay he believed that through the process of visual visualization he could obtain everything
he wanted for himself and he became very frustrated when things didn't appear to
be going his way which I imagine happened a lot yes absolutely he was absolutely desperate to be with Ethel
but no matter what he did or how he tried to prove his love for her she was resistant because she loved Joe yeah
after several months in the house Mary the mother who had always been actually pretty fond of Bob took him aside and
very gently expressed her concerns that for the sake of her daughter's future she was quote anxious that Ethel have
nothing to do with Bob oo which I think she put it gentler than that but that was essentially the message what he took
from it and she said she wanted her daughter to marry a wealthy man and not have to struggle like she had in her own
marriage so I think she was saying to Bob like I want something better for Ethel and also like I want you to move
on yeah she liked she's not going to marry you she's not going to be with you like you need to move on like yeah and
it sounds like she went about it in like a the kindest way that she could she possibly could exactly you know but
undeterred by Mary's words Bob continued to pursue Ethel romantically and a few months later while the two were out for
a walk along the pier he insisted that they should get married oh boy now at that point having grown tired of Bob's
Relentless advances and honestly his increasingly bizarre talk of Vis visualization I can never say that and
other strange beliefs Ethel finally explained that while she hoped they could remain friends she had accepted
Joe kar's proposal and they were going to get married in the coming months Bob later told a reporter I just went crazy
in the weeks that followed he spiraled into depression and heavily contemplated suicide as he bounced from one boarding
house to another and then he was dealt another serious blow in October when after putting up with his poor attitude
and sullenness for months his boss let him go from the production factory he was working at in response Bob grabbed a
nearby meat cleaver and threatened to quote split his boss's head right down the middle holy [ __ ] so now out of work
and desperate Bob actually returned to Rockland hospital where he voluntarily committed himself for treatment which
that's interesting it is interesting that he does like obviously know enough he recognizes it seems like he has these
periods where he's good where he's like Lucid Lucid exactly and like realizes like oh no I need to get some kind of
help and he goes to get the help and it's like I wish that they would have just recognized that he needed to stay
there yeah cuz it's like like I think then it was just like before medication before before any of the advances of
understanding what these things are how you can deal with them tools that you can use to get through these things
psychiatrists helping you like be like okay when you feel this way this is what I want you to do or this is what I want
you to try or visualize this like to his visualization thing but like make it more of a tool that he can use to like
get himself out of these really intense emotional situations yeah and it's like they just didn't have that and just
offer him a safe space to stay while he is going through it is going through all
that exactly so based on everything that they learned about him detectives became
convinced that Bob Irwin was most definitely their suspect sounds like it yes but the only problem was they had no
idea where he was a police spokesperson told reporters on April 5th we've been looking for him since the murders we
think he's the man I hope he hasn't committed suicide in response to a Citywide alert Bob's former landlord who
had actually been renting him a room directly across the street from the police precinct contacted police but by
the time they arrived at The Boarding House Bob had packed his belongings and fled oh damn and the landl the land lady
had no idea where he had gone but she did remember that Bob had two suitcases with him and one of them had a distinct
looking strap wrapped around it with a large Buckle to keep it closed so that was a pretty key detail to remember a
good detail so the news about the man hunt for Bob Irwin came as a shock to very few people who knew him well but
among those who found it hard to believe was actually Ethel Gideon on April 6 she
told reporters I cannot believe Irwin is the man who killed my mother and sister
while she provided investigators with everything she knew about Bob more than 18,000 officers mobilized across the
city in search of the suspected killer at Rockland Hospital detectives learned that Bob had actually been discharged
the previous October and since then had just been kind of bopping around to various boarding houses across the city
and during his time at Rockland his most recent time they informed investigators
that his religious delusions had worsened and he'd actually started studying religion like almost
exclusively completely casting aside his sculpting and his art ooh yeah and it's
like that's the only outlet that man has and where he was yeah and where he was raised in such a a place where like
religion was not a a place of comfort or a place of Solace or something to believe in it was like probably a
punishment not a good place to be going yeah it wasn't great so on a hunch investigators went to Grand Central
Station and asked the baggage check attendant whether anyone had checked luggage resembling that which had been
described by Bob's landl as luck would have it somebody matching Bob's description actually had checked that
very bag they were looking for and that person had not been back to retrieve it in days so presented with the suitcase
help closed with the strap and the Buckle investigators searched its contents and found inside them that
small alarm clock that Ethel said was missing from her sister's dressing table at the apartment so this piece of
evidence only further confirmed their suspicion that Bob was the killer the hunt for Bob Irwin was the largest since
the hunt for the Lindberg kidnapper 5 years earlier wow but despite their best efforts it was not the NYPD who
ultimately found Irwin but a tip from a reader of True Detective magazine you could not write this you literally
couldn't you could not write this just as they had done before the editors of True Detective remained committed to
helping find Ronnie's killer because remember she worked for them she posed for the covers and yeah she was friends
with them yeah they got to know her they loved her so to that end they offered a
$1,000 um reward for information leading to an arrest today that would be 20 over
$21,000 wow it was huge and in late June of 1937 an employee at the I think it's
Statler hotel in Cleveland Ohio happened to be flipping through her copy of True
Detective on her break and she noticed a police photograph of Bob Irwin and she thought huh that actually looks a lot
like the new barback Bob Murray stop and this [ __ ] amused by the resemblance showed the photo to Bob and
from the look on his face she could tell that it was way more than a mere coincidence yeah so Bob fled the the
hotel that day why would you do that why would you show him and say like oh this
guy looks like you like that's a dumbass move I'm sorry so he fled the hotel and
by the time detectives made it there he was gone again awesome so by the summer of 1937 now Bob Irwin's photo was
plastered across Billboards magazines newspapers all around the country at this point and it was only a matter of
time before they caught up with him wanting to get ahead of the story Bob ended up placing a call to the Chicago
tribute with an offer he knew they would not be able to resist he told the operator I'm a friend of Robert Irwin
who is wanted in New York for the Gideon murders he wants to give himself up what
kind of deal can you make with him now after getting through this is him this is him this is actually him
just pretending to be a friend he's like I have a friend after getting through to
the right person he offered the paper a complete exclusive confession in exchange for $5,000 cash a white linen
suit and a Panama Hat stop given what they were being offered the Tribune jumped at the opportunity of course they
did and agreed to meet him at the office of managing editor John dehart where Bob
sat down and told his story the man who did it is sitting pretending to be a friend telling the story if this
doesn't tell you that oh at this point he wasn't even pretending to be a friend he was oh he no he's saying it's
actually him yeah it was the friend who called and said all this up but was like
I can get Bob to you so Bob sat down with them wow yeah I'm without I'm speechless
now at that time it was actually pretty common for the press to to pay criminals
for their exclusive rights to their stories or any kind of other information that they deemed valuable as news
reporters but this was the first time a newspaper had knowingly and deliberately
shielded a murderer from the law in order to get a story [ __ ] he murdered three people he came
in this place and said I'll tell you the story they were like yeah let's just let
him do that and not call the police like what the [ __ ] is wrong with you I'm so
surprised that they weren't charged with obstruction of justice truly I think this it got so Sensational and like it
got so beyond that that probably once he does eventually get convicted so once it
once it ended there they were like whatever but I'm like what the kind of precedent do that that's really [ __ ]
up now there's no [ __ ] way ever that that could happen again but this happened I'm shook by the and the fact
that his name uh cuz you you've been saying Bob so I forgot that his name is Robert and I think Steve Irwin's son is
named Robert and he's a lovely lovely guy he is lovely I follow that whole family very much of Steve Irwin and it's
B it's bumming me out so much to hear that name like in conjunction with like it's weird that we started this with
doppelgangers whoa that's weird little strange this is really just same name Robert Irwin the the Steve of Steve
Steve Irwin DNA is seems lovely oh yeah seems standup guy but the Chicago Tribune at the time not a standup
newspaper no so they were like yeah let's yeah sure because essentially they just wanted to secure the exclusive
rights to have advantage over the honestly is hilarious because uh spoil earlier it didn't end up working
out for them I can't imagine why now but they did get they they were the first to
technically get the story on the evening of June 26 1937 Bob Irwin sat down with
reporters and photographers from the tri the Tribune wearing a suit at the Morrison Hotel and just started his
story wow he told this is so bizarre it's not I've never heard of another case like this he told them that night I
said to myself I'm going up there and killing Ethel I never intended to get anybody but her I thought that after
killing Ethel then they would kill me in the chair but I didn't care wow he continued on that he had indeed been in
love with Ethel and that when she rejected him he became so obsessed that he was just not able to focus on
anything else and after several months of hospitalization he decided the only way to regain his Focus was to rid
himself of Ethel and that's why he was resolved to kill her but not wanting to Mar her beauty he said he decided to
stab her in the back of the neck with an ice pick from his apartment that is so chilling and it's
such disordered thinking I don't want to ruin her beauty but I want to end her life what the [ __ ] I feel like that just
goes to show you like that something was not clicking upstairs on the night of March 28th he
went to the apartment on East 50th Street and rang the bell having always liked Bob Mary happily let him into the
apartment oh Mary where she was prepping for Easter dinner the following day he told the reporter Mrs Gideon did not
want me to have anything to do with eel outside of that she was always very friendly to me they chatted pleasantly
in the kitchen for a short time Mary even introduced Bob to her newest border Frank Burns but eventually Bob started
becoming impatient and asking where Ethel would when Ethel would be home confused Mary explained that Ethel had
moved out of the house years earlier because she was now married to Joe but according to Harold uh I think it's
Shear yeah he we've done a couple of his books he uh I think you used his book for the the edgein case yes he wrote a a
book about this case called The Mad sculptor ah and according to him the last time Bob had visited the apartment
Ethel had actually been staying with her mother temporarily and quote Bob had gotten it into his head that she and Joe
cner were separated oh wow yeah so after a few hours Mary became impatient and somewhat bluntly explained that Ethel
wasn't going to show up and since it was getting late she wanted to go to bed but
undeterred Bob insisted he was going to stay until he saw Ethel which prompted Mary to yell get out of here or I'll
call the Englishman referring to Frank Burns who was now asleep in the Next Room oh no the threat caused Bob to
become completely irate and he rushed toward Mary he recalled at that moment I hid her with everything I had she fell
back on the floor with her legs back over her head I grabbed her by the neck she scratched my face like nobody's
business good good for her I know he said he then choked her for nearly 20 minutes until she was dead what and then
he simply sat back down at the kitchen table and continued on waiting for Ethel he said she was the one I felt I must
kill I simply had to finish what I planned and remember Frank Burns is asleep in the Next Room but he didn't
hear anything because he was deaf in one ear on yeah that and he was asleep on his good ear oh man as he waited it
occurred to Bob that Ronnie might return home before Ethel which presented a serious problem he told the interviewer
where she was beautiful and I hate to destroy Beauty what the [ __ ] he's an artist in that moment Bob was reminded
of something that he'd read recently about how a bar of soap wrapped in a towel could make an effect of blackjack
that he could use to stun Ronnie and nothing more so he went to the kitchen and grabbed the bar of soap from the
sink that's why that's soap that's why it was there which he wrapped in a dish towel and then returned to his hiding
place in the bedroom a little after 3:00 a.m. Bob heard Ronnie returning from her
night out which lined up perfectly with what Steven butter had told them and after saying goodbye to butter she
entered the apartment and went straight to the bathroom where she started her little night nightly routine removing
her makeup just getting ready for bed he said she stayed in there the longest time I thought she would never come out
but finally just before 4:00 a.m. Ronnie entered the bedroom and Bob swung the soap bar as hard as he could striking
her on the head he said it didn't have the slightest effect which like obviously obviously but in his mind that
was totally going to work so with with his Blackjack having crumbled to the floor and Ronnie having now seen his
face he grabbed her by the throat and started choking her demanding to know where Ethel was and she imagine she just
came home to her house yeah just in the middle of the night how many times does everybody else in the world do that this
is BTK behavior of like waiting in someone's closet until they come like until the middle of the night like
that's [ __ ] up now when Ronnie explained that her sister was at home with her husband Bob lost all control
and started strangling her he told the reporter I wanted to let Ronnie live if I could we were always Pals I suppose
she thought I was going to rape her she said please don't touch me I just had an
operation and the doctor said if I have intercourse I could die Bob estimated that he held on tightly around Ronnie's
throat for nearly two hours what the [ __ ] but he couldn't say for certain he said when you get in a mixup like that
you don't think about what you're doing and time means nothing I I'm like without words it's
beyond so once he had choked all the life out of her he ripped off her slip and left her body on the bed and then
stuffed Mary's body under the bed he never said why he did that yeah maybe just so I don't the only thing I think
of is she wouldn't be immediately found I guess but or I like why he ripped off her slip I mean Rony slip like why he
left her naked on the bed yeah I mean who knows but he was about to leave the room when he noticed the small this is
really interesting and just strange he was about to leave the room when he noticed the small green alarm clock
sitting on the dresser still and to him he said the glowing green clock resembled an eye that had been watching
him while he murdered both women so he grabbed it stuffed it into his pocket as he left the
room wow right I mean that tells you something he's not of s mind I mean this is absolutely [ __ ] horrific
absolutely this is brutal so Bob was about to leave the apartment and go back to his boarding house when he remembered
Frank Burns the Border had been in the apartment the entire time but like I said never woke up because of his
hearing so when Burns had come in several hours earlier Mary introduced Bob by name so Bob felt that if he left
Frank alive there was a good chance that he would be able to identify him so he crept into Frank Burns's room using the
ice pick that he intended to use to kill Ethel and stabbed Burns in the head but
doesn't that point to not wanting to be caught and to making pretty logical moves to make sure
that you are not identified that's the thing I think he I mean he's a d aged schizophrenic absolutely but I mean like
in this moment I'm like cuz cuz you can be a diagnosed schizophrenic commit a crime like this and they can still say
you're guilty because you were sane in the moment in the action of committing the crime yeah he's sane well just wait
that's sane Behavior you are not the only one that thinks that yeah I fully believe that so and we'll get to it cuz
you're not you're not alone there he said I struck him the first time in the temple so far as it would go the poor
fellow lay there twitching but did not bleed I had to hit him 11 times holy [ __ ] with all three occupants dead Bob
grabbed his coat and left the apartment a little after 6:00 a.m. he finished by telling his audience from the Tribune
I'm certainly sorry I killed all three of them there was only the one I was after and that was Ethel I don't know
whether it was hate or love that made me want to kill her if she had come in first I probably would have killed her
and nobody else wow imagine being Ethel here I can't imag there's so many layers to it of knowing
that if you had walked in you were the one that was getting this but also then to know that three people died in place
of you and two of them being your sister two of them being yeah like and by no fault of your own no but the survivor's
guilt you would already have Survivor guilt anyway like no matter who it was to do with you but then learning that
you're the intended victim like I yeah that would ruin me yeah but before the interview the reporter asked what Bob
was expecting to happen to him now that he had confessed and would be apprehended and he answered whatever's
coming to me I'll take wow so it wasn't until after the Evening Edition of the Harald and
examiner hit the news stands that investigators learned Bob had confessed to killing Ronnie Mary and Frank the
front page article had scooped the competition and been the first to report the news that's [ __ ] up the Chicago
Tribune literally just obstructed the [ __ ] out of Justice to get this interview to get that front page scoop
and they didn't even get it it ended up getting scooped by the competition somehow just like word of mouth I think
but detectives naturally thought it was them and not the Chicago Tribune who had
done the interview and it was only when they reached the offices of The Herald and examiner that they learned Bob was
still H up at the Morrison Hotel with the staff from the Tribune what the [ __ ]
Yep this is so bizarre so on June 28th 1937 Bob was transported back to New York after voluntarily waving
extradition and declaring his willingness to take responsibility for the Gideon murders according to the New
York Times Bob's Bob was juny giggling at times and without the slightest trace of remorse as he repeatedly confessed
the murders to the New York detectives who' been sent to retrieve him from Chicago once they arrived back in New
York Bob was taken to Police Headquarters and questioned until just before 3:00 a.m. a police spokesperson
told reporters he stated that he had made a statement to Lieutenant Owens and detective cmans confessing to the
murders in the plane and route from Chicago to New York and that that statement was true wow according to
investigators he was fully Cooperative from the moment that he was picked up in Chicago and actually even seemed eager
to get back to New York and face his penalty one reporter wrote he boasted to them that he was willing to plead guilty
to the murders and that he was not afraid of death in the electric chair okay buddy he doesn't even plead guilty so
I'm like what so this is all just [ __ ] so Bob appeared before the court of General Sessions on July 1st where his
lawyer Samuel libowitz entered a plea of not guilty according to the New York Times the courtroom was packed with
quote an admiring crowd of middle-aged women hoping to Glimpse Irwin get it together like what get it together just
like in part one and every other [ __ ] part we do of any case people are going to people people are going to people
like what is that like come on man you first of all you want to catch a glimpse of of a man who was intending to kill a
woman that he was romantically obsessed with and because she wasn't there he killed her mother's sister and a Bard
her at the house like here's the thing that like gets you going that's the problem it's like I understand being
curious and like being interested in the case and wanting to see who this guy is
that did this absolutely but they were like oh my God interested like that's wow it's like the girls that showed up
to see Ted Bundy and like please marry me and literally parted their hair the same way their hair because that's what
liked like what the [ __ ] Charlie Manson's girls it's it's such a [ __ ] weird pathology it's a
strange yeah weird but after entering his plea Bob was removed from the court and returned to his cell to await trial
which was tentatively scheduled for the fall in a statement to the Press Le libowitz said this is the most
interesting case I have ever had due to the social implications you cannot tell me how many more irwins are running
around loose I hope that Society will learning a lesson from the Irwin case make a more logical insane approach to
the problem dealing with the criminal insane which like for a defense attorney to say like yeah like he's wrong but I
think he's insane and the way that he said it like hopefully Society will figure their [ __ ] out yeah it's a very
this is a lesson for sure for the time I'm like wow mildly Progressive it's a pretty Progressive view that's the word
I was looking for now in early September before Bob's trial was to begin Samuel levowitz uh arranged a press conference
in which he promised to his client would be on hand to answer questions for the Press however when Bob was brought to
the interview room in the courthouse he was quote Wildey unshaved and unkempt and appeared to have no idea what was
going on once he settled in the chair beside levowitz Bob unprompted blurted out for two weeks they had doctors
staring and learing at me their eyes they bothered me I couldn't stand it they beat me from behind with black with
a blackjack six men with blackjacks I couldn't fight six men with blackjacks you're just talking nonsense
all right which maybe is because he's in a state yeah of whatever he deals with or maybe
ised yeah I mean it seems to me like he he's obviously clinically there's something wrong yes but I think the
thing that they're going to have to prove here is that he was sane at the time of the Mur the time of the murders
mhm so Bob said little more to the reporters before being returned to his cell but it was clear that to the
reporters that the entire press conference was part of the defense attorney's trial strategy whether it was
true or not it was yeah genuine or not it was strategic absolutely because it's like they can use it like no matter what
you know like they're just like okay this happened great like in front of some cameras and show everybody that
he's clearly not you know him he's not all with it right now it's going to sway public opinion no matter what of course
it is and according to the New York Times Mr leitz who is apparently laying the groundwork for a defense based on a
plea of insanity told reporters he thought Irwin was a dual personality libowitz himself told the reporters that
he had seen his client just one day earlier and he seemed calm and collected but then added you saw how he acted
today like a raving Maniac it's wild how they talked it really is you're like yikes yeah after
several months of delays Bob finally went before the court of General Sessions on March 24th 1938 because he
had already confessed the only issues being considered were quote the mental condition of the defendant Robert Irwin
at the time of the commission of each of the alleged crimes whether he is now capable of understanding the proceeding
and making his defense on the on the trial of the indictments yeah so essentially exactly what happened with
your trial yeah with your last episode but unlike a traditional trial in this case the jury was presented with
testimony taken from 20 sessions of the lunacy commission the lunacy commission that was a legit thing I've never heard
that the lunacy commission wow and transcripts from the 28 witness interviews as well as physical and
documentary evidence in support of his client's compromised mental state libowitz presented testimony from Dr
Leland hinsey assistant director of the New York psychiatric Institute and Dr Bernard Gluck I think it is the former
director of the Psychiatric clinic at singing both of whom had actually evaluated Bob in total both men spent
nearly 70 hours interviewing Bob so this was a dedicated process and during that time hiny said Bob's
Behavior would sometimes become frightening and erratic he said he would begin by excessive talking and would be
considerably upset when he was interrupted for some explanations on some point he had raised according to
hiny these interruptions often prompted Bob to quote stare at the examiner grit his teeth pound on the table viciously
with his fist and yell that he would not suffer any any interruptions that would
be terrifying even just writing it and like picturing it yeah was a terrifying experience I can't imagine being there
stare at the examiner and grit his teeth and yell and like pound his fit like that's a lot that's scary now one
subject which Bob would talk at length about was his spiritual beliefs Harold Sher wrote Irwin worked himself into a
pitch of near frenzied exaltation while discoursing on his current efforts to transform his body through the power of
electricity Bob told the psychiatrists there is no limit to the extent that I can build myself mentally and physically
through electricity I can stop the action of my heartbeat prevent my lungs from expanding and Contracting control
the passage of food through my body all of this done by electricity false incorrect wow but
arguing that Bob was sane when he committed the murders and knew what he was doing was both morally wrong and
illegal was the district attorney William D or do excuse me and Elena and he pointed to several instances in which
Irwin appeared to be concealing information upon his arrest for example Bob was reluctant to disclose
information about the crimes which implied a certain level of awareness of what he had done and similarly when he
was asked about the fee that he received for his confession Bob explained that he
planned to use a small portion for himself saying if I find myself in an institution for life or something like
that I would like to get a small amount of money so that I can hire someone of my fellow patients or prisoners whatever
you want to call them in such an institution for $1 a week you can get people to do many things for you I mean
that is some highlevel that's high level plan and planning yes like damn right yeah this is such an interesting case
because it's very clear that this man is insane like you can't ill he is a very ill man I mean his actions before this
and you know what he did the self harm that he did to himself and all that stuff is there is something wrong there
but I see what you're saying and I see what the da is saying here with by criminal definition not so much he like
you were when you pointed it out that he killed Frank Burns because he knew somebody could identify him yeah he was
like he's been introduced to me by name and he saw my face and even even Ronnie yeah Ronnie turned around and saw his
face after she didn't get knocked out with the quote unquote Blackjack made out of soap and so he and he was like I
had to kill her like that's that's criminal thinking that's sane thinking that's ordered thinking exactly and it's
like that's I'm byal believe you can have you can be extraordinarily mentally ill but if your moment of Lucidity is
when you murder someone with your [ __ ] bare hands and you know it's wrong to jail you go mhm like you're
guilty yeah that's the way it is like you can't get off of that if you were while you did it and you know what you
did and you still did it and then you made steps to cover it up and to make sure you didn't get
identified there's really no arguing that but then there's the whole issue of can you be institutionalized or can you
be sent a prison when really you should be institutionalized he should absolutely be institutionalized exactly
yeah I think you should still and I think that's where the problem lies because a lot of times figuring out
whether somebody's quote unquote insane or not criminally insane is to sentence them yeah and usually it's like if
you're not insane then straight to prison you go yeah but in this case this man this man is not going to like
prison's not going to do anything for him no and not that prison is like necessarily meant to do anything for
anybody but it kind of is like it's kind of Rehabilitation supposed to be whereas
somebody like this is not necessarily going to be able to be rehabilitated but you also look at an institution and
especially at this time might be worse oh it might be absolutely be even worse it's like I don't think he's going to
come out of there you know ready to Take On The World either no but then you think of the danger in which you're
putting the other prisoners so it's like it's there's this whole gray area I feel
like where it's like I feel like the definition of criminal insanity is so hard it's yeah it's hard it's there's
a lot of because there's so many different variables and gray areas but this one I'm like he was sayane when he
committed those murders in my that's the thing I think I agree with that I think
he was when he committed the murders but then I feel like it's a whole different
story of okay well like what the [ __ ] do we do with him now you know yeah so Dodge argued that this was evidence that
Irwin had already contemplated his options upon arrest and that quote Irwin contemplated the possibility of a trial
which would terminate by committing him to an institution for the insane according to the prosecution the facts
of Irwin's voluntary surrender in Chicago and the shrewd bargain struck with the Chicago Herald examiner which
Irwin initi app and accomplished by himself indicates a a mentality of keenness and comprehension which yeah it
does yeah and I also like I mean I don't I don't put a whole lot of stock in diagnoses that happened
in the 30s so it's like I don't even know if he's schizophrenic I don't know what his diagnosis would be now I don't
know what it would be now and that's the thing I don't know I mean again I'm not
going to armchair diagnose him because I don't know enough about him in his life
and what done I just know that there's moments where he is showing criminal cunning and that's not you know like
that's not I don't know it's just there's a lot it's a tough one this there's a lot of gray area within this
he is completely right when he says that that deal that he struck with the the newspaper that's C for sure a cunning
deal and it was for his benefit and it's like but it's also shows like a lack of I don't even know like an over
overinflated sense of self almost that like or an ego of some kind like a hubris here that like he thought he
could do that and then it's like then what did you think would happen like even he could barely answer that I I
don't think he went from a to c I think he went from A to B with that plan so there's that part of it that's like
that's a disjointed thought here that's the thing so there is a lot of different
details that are confusing and I don't know a lot about schizophrenia but what I do know is that there are periods of
clarity and then there are periods of yeah you know like which that happens with a lot ofal illnesses and diagnoses
yeah so after weighing the evidence the jury determined that Robert Bob Irwin was in fact sane at the time of the
murders wow because of that his case went to criminal trial on November 7th 1938 where Samuel libowitz libowitz did
everything in his power to stall the trial objecting to jurors and repeatedly filing motions to postpone the trial
which honestly that's a tough case there like I feel like he would need all the Time in the World to prepare for that
but then on November 15th the Press reported the surprising news that Bob had accepted a plea deal from the
prosecution where he would plead guilty to Second deegree murder on all three charges and they would remove the death
penalty the district attorney told the Press because of Irwin's previous record of insanity there was a possibility that
the jury might have found might have held him legally insane in which case he might finally have been released from
conf and see that's where my issue comes with the whole like I that if he's found
insane during that you know quote unquote then they'll put him somewhere and then they'll release him and it's
like that's no like a lot of times that's not going to work a lot of times that's where we have another string of
horrible crimes that people pay the ultimate price for because this person was let out and deemed to not be sane
during this whole thing and it's like he would do it again and I think that's where it's like a problem with the
justice system and a problem within like Hospital like hospitalization and that kind of thing
like there I feel like there the whole system then and even now is just yeah it needs to be Revisited for well and it
makes the the jury's job even worse because they're sitting here having to say okay if we find this person not
legally sane during this and he gets committed to an institution is he going to be walking out of there in a year
exactly you know like less than that sometimes cuz you would have to think of that yeah so yeah it it's tough yeah so
instead the prosecution intended to recommend a sentence of 90 years to life on each count to be served consecutively
okay on November 28th Bob appeared before Judge James Wallace who I'm almost 99% sure we have covered before
like he's been in cases that we covered just sounds very familiar uh that was in
the court of General Sessions and he was sentenced to 139 years in prison 99 years for the murder of Burns and 20
years for each of the murders of Mary and Veronica Gideon wow when asked if he had anything to say on his own behalf
Bob said ordinarily this business of asking a prisoner if he has anything to say is a mere formality the man is
generally guilty of willful aggression against Society or he is too ignorant to speak for himself I'm not guilty of any
willful aggression against society and then he wasn't done yet but judge Wallace interrupted and said this is no
time for a long speech or extended remarks but Bob ignored the judge and continued this is a farce I have a
definite and real reason why sentence should not be pronounced you say you represent Justice I say you do not you
represent a rich man's Justice it no I think you just killed three people pretty brutally yeah and
then made great effort to hide it great effort so I think that's that's the problem Bob yep so
after managing to get Bob under control judge Wallace uh reread the charges and the sentence and then turned to the
district attorney to make it clear that he had accepted the guilty please on the
recommendation of the District Attorney's office but he had done so with reservations the judge he said
there is no question the defendant is mentally unsound in my opinion the state has lost nothing in accepting these
pleas except possibly the execution of this defendant and that would bring no credit to the state yeah so he's like I
don't really know if what we're doing here is great yeah but he was like but I guess we're not executing him which like
good woo for us but it turned out that judge Wallace was not the only one who questioned whether sending Irwin to
prison was the right decision or not a little more than a week into his sentence at singing Bob was transferred
to damura state hospital for the criminally insane after two singing psychi psychiatrists evaluated him and
deemed him very definitely insane quote unquote yeah while at danam Mora he studied for languages and eventually
taught himself French German Latin polish Italian and quote also invented an international language of his
own wow yeah damn when he wasn't spending time on his education he wrote letters to his former psychiatrist
Frederick uh Wortham and even began a long-distance correspondence with a woman in Cuba wow however within a year
his anger got the better of him and became he became one of the more unruly patients at the hospital who most often
required solitary confinement he's aggressive he is aggressive and dangerous in 1975 he died at the uh
Matan I think it is state hospital for the criminally insane after an 8-year battle with cancer and he was 67 years
old when he died wow the fact that he lived until 1975 yeah it's like so it's so strange to yeah to like wrap your
brain around that time frame that's a wild one and it's just so it's for his life was sad like when he was a child so
you feel bad for the child absolutely you feel so bad for Ethel Gideon oh my goodness having to live the rest of her
life knowing that she was the intended victim and not her mother and sister and an innocent border at the house that
they just became collateral damage EX in his whole thing and then for the victims
it's like Frank is just sleeping in his bed just a border in that house just wrong place wrong time entirely the mom
was always good to him Ronnie was always good to him they the whole family was good to this man they
did nothing to deserve that except he just couldn't have Ethel and he couldn't handle it he just became obsessed like
yeah scary scary scary obsessed wow but it's such a wild case and it was handled
so wild on so many different levels by the Press first with publishing fake details about the murders when nobody
even knew anything yet yeah that's snarly exploiting Ronnie and like all the photographers that had work with her
but then like True Detective being they came out look smelling like roses here like the one that you say like oh man
those detective magazines they're the ones who come out and they're like we actually give a [ __ ] about her exactly
like that's crazy and then the [ __ ] Chicago Tribune that way back yeah way back I was like oh my God you guys
wouldn't do that now right you would never do that now you would never do that now they couldn't do that there's
no [ __ ] I'm like how did this how was this allowed Wy Behavior insane so yeah yeah wow that is that is part two for
you and that wraps it up damn and the Easter Sunday murders wow well thanks for that you're welcome um
with that we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird that you don't turn into what I'm
pretty sure next is a listener tale yeah party [Music] [Music] [Music] I have the breath of a woman who just
ate a salad Jean [Laughter] salad that's going to the end cuz I had a little salad with a
little garlic little garlic garlic and vinegar for stinky ass breath breath hell yeah okay let's do this

On the afternoon of March 28, 1937, Easter Sunday, Joseph Gedeon and his daughter, Ethel, arrived at the home of Gedeon’s wife, Mary, for a planned Easter dinner. The Gedeon’s had been separated for some time but had agreed to have dinner together as a family, which included their other daughter, Veronica, a moderately successful pulp magazine model. When they entered the apartment, it appeared as though no one was home; however, upon checking the bedroom where his daughter slept, Joseph Gedeon found the nude body of his daughter lying lifeless on the bed and immediately called the police.

During an initial search of the apartment, investigators found the body of Mary Gedeon stuffed under her bed; like her daughter, she had been strangled to death. In a third bedroom, police also found the body of Mary’s boarder, Frank Byrnes, who’d been stabbed several times in the head and neck with a long, thin implement. There was no sign of a forced entry, no sign of a struggle, and nothing appeared to be missing from the apartment. Given that Veronica had been found nude, and Mary was clothed but her underwear had been torn away, investigators assumed the murders were a sex crime.

Still caught in the grip of the Great Depression, New Yorkers welcomed anything that could distract from the unpleasant realities of daily life and the salacious murder of a pulp magazine model—a sex crime, no less—was exactly what they were looking for. The story dominated the press, as reporters and tabloid journalists dug into Veronica’s personal life and dating history and published lurid photos from her past. But when the killer was finally caught and the motive revealed, the story was far stranger and tragic than anyone had imagined.

Thank you to the wonderful David White of the Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research!

References

Brooklyn Daily Eagle. 1937. "Cops question ex-lodger in triple murder." Brooklyn Daily Eagle, March 29: 1.

—. 1937. "Doubts student is killer." Brooklyn Daily Eagle, April 6: 1.

—. 1938. "Irwin's guilty plea." Brooklyn Daily Eagle, November 15: 10.

Buffalo Evening News. 1938. "Irwin, ruled insane, sent to Dannemora." Buffalo Evening News, December 10: 1.

2015. A Crime to Remember. Directed by Jeremiah Crowell. Performed by Jeremiah Crowell.

New York Daily News. 1937. "3 murdered in model's flat." New York Daily News, March 29: 1.

—. 1937. "Gray hair in model's hand chief clue in triple murder." New York Daily News, March 30: 1.

—. 1937. "Willful Ronnie 'made fools of men,' dad says." New York Daily News, March 30: 3.

New York Times. 1938. "139-year sentence imposed on Irwin." New York Times, November 29: 48.

—. 1937. "Fingerprint clues found at scene of triple murder." New York Times, March 31: 1.

—. 1937. "Gedeon gets bail." New York Times, April 3: 1.

—. 1937. "Gedeon questioned again in murders; solution held near." New York Times, April 1: 1.

—. 1937. "Irwin flown here; boasts of killings." New York Times, June 28: 1.

—. 1937. "Irwin, wild-eyed, meets reporters." New York Times, September 1: 20.

—. 1937. "Women jam court to glimpse Irwin." New York Times, Jukly 1: 56.

People v. Robert Irwin. 1938. 166 Misc. 751 (Court of General Sessions of the County of New York, March 24).

Schechter, Harold. 2014. The Mad Sculptor: The Maniac, the Model, and the Murder That Shook the Nation. Boston, MA: New Harvest.

United Press. 1937. "Sculptor hunted as triple killer in Gedeon cases." Buffalo Evening News, April 5: 1.

Connect with Wondery http://wondery.com/shows http://facebook.com/WonderyMedia http://twitter.com/WonderyMedia http://instagram.com/WonderyMedia

Brief Summary

Bob Irwin's obsession with Ethel Gideon leads to the brutal murders of her family, revealing his troubled past and mental illness.

Key points

Doppelganger Dilemma. Ash and Elena discuss eerie experiences with doubles in their lives.
Bob Irwin's Troubled Life. Exploring the sad and tumultuous life of Bob Irwin, a key suspect in the murders.
A Descent into Madness. Bob's mental health deteriorates as he becomes obsessed with Ethel.
The Hunt for Bob Irwin. The search for Bob Irwin escalates, mobilizing over 18,000 officers across the city.
Bob's Confession. Bob Irwin confesses to the murders, revealing chilling details about his actions.
The Plea Deal. Bob accepted a plea deal for second-degree murder, avoiding the death penalty.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I'm the one getting shit done over here!

Defending her productivity against her doppelganger.

4:10WatchJun 24, 2024

Tension

75/ 100High tension

More from Morbid | Podcast

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.