The Forgotten WM3 /// Part 2 /// 387 | Forensic Files

foreign [Music] thank you [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
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thing that very quickly comes up in most profiles the the level of concealment of
the victim of the body often indicates how well known the offender was to the victim how close the
two were related and where we where we have here if tying the bodies up postmortem
making smaller packages making sure that those packages stay under the water it really conceals the bodies and it's
somebody taking on added risk to themselves getting caught by taking that time to conceal the bodies in this
manner if it were some Maniac from the truck stop he would have done what he wanted to do
and then just fled the area exactly right yeah and that that's especially when you consider you're
talking about the risk they were taking again this was not a remote Forest this person was was doing all that work to
conceal those bodies with semi trucks pulling up in and out of a truck wash 100 feet from them
people playing in their backyards 100 feet in the other direction like like all this is happening around
them and they're doing it the only reason to do that is typically what I like to say is
not necessarily that people know that this individual was with the victims right before they died
but that that's individual thinks people might know that he was with the victims right
before they died so so say say whatever say person X sees the other boys cross the pipe and
go in there and person X gets out out of their vehicle you know walks across people's yards
walks across the pipe which is in broad daylight view of the Mayfair apartments Walks Into the Woods
and then ends up killing the boys and then is like oh [ __ ] I don't know if anyone saw me do that you know if they
weren't going there with the intention of killing them which I don't believe they did
you know so so now they think I think people know that I was with them so that explains the risk in the concealment in
the fact that okay I've got to make sure when people come here to look that this
is not where they find the boy's bodies because someone could say hey I just saw
you go in there and now the bodies are there I think that's why the we see that level of concealment and I think that's
why we see even the bikes thrown into the Bayou as part of the concealment because this person needed to have a
backup plan and somebody said hey I saw you going in there they could say yeah I
was searching I didn't find him in there whereas you know if they find the boy's
bodies very clearly and quickly and they were there then they're obviously going
to get pegged for the crime so it's it's a it's a way for them to get to put some
distance between themselves both both Geographic distance and time away from them to delay the the bodies being found
so that they can that they're not they're not known to be the last people with them in that location and and it
all comes back to there being a personal relationship with them there's someone that people would expect to be with
those boys at that time which is typically you know someone who knows them now a lot of people would say in
this cast of characters because the investigation like you're you're making all these great points of
why it was so or not why but the fact that it was such a just I don't even know what the word is
uh a [ __ ] storm uh of an investigation but you have an individual like the guy
in Bojangles what's your thought after looking into this case now on an individual like that I think that
there's Mr Bojangles is a is a red herring uh we kind of broke it down on the podcast during season five
um about the timing and the terrain and then as you'll see on the TV series we actually we actually brought in
um in X Special Forces person that that navigates to rain like that for a living
and had them make the actual run that the Bojangles man would have had to make and and ultimately the the determination
was that there's just no way that this guy had any connection to the crime whatsoever for for a number of reasons I
mean the blood that was on him well there wasn't any blood on the boys the way they were killed uh and even what we
found in from our you know filming the TV series was the mud um there wouldn't have been any mud on
them either and and you'll see again the when your listeners are listening to this they will have already seen it and
you'll see this weekend why that's the case is it because you could have done everything from
and and not be in the water no it's because the water so we went in very similar conditions when the water
was murky and gross and the you know you have to cross the water to get you have
to cross two Creeks actually to get to Bojangles if you were taking the route from the crime scene to follow the Bayou
all the way down there and we expected our our special forces guy to come out covered and caked in mud like Mr
Bojangles was but when he came out he was perfectly clean and it was because of the water
from crossing the Bayou actually just it just rinsed all that mud right off of them and we we tried a few things we're
like how is that possible that's just the way that it worked out is is once you cross the Bayou to go into the
Bojangles you come out no matter how much we caked mud on him once you came out the other side you were clean so
most likely we determined uh which you don't necessarily see it on the show but we determined in the process was where
this guy probably came from was from the the open field to the uh it would be the
south of of the Bojangles restaurant there's a little ditch there and the guy probably stumbled through that ditch on
his way to the restaurant and there you can get yourself covered in mind so the the boys are placed in the water for
concealment the bikes two bicycles belonging to two of the boys are placed in the water for concealment as well
what do and this might not be important because it may have already been left elsewhere beforehand but wasn't
Christopher Byers on a skateboard at some point that evening it was that skateboard ever located or or again if
it's even important to the case yeah I mean he was on a skateboard at some point and it was located I think it was
found um just down the road from his house you know well it was well his dad Mark Myers
excuse me well his dad Mark Byers actually found him riding the skateboard down the middle of the road that's why
he took him home and gave him the weapon so you know he was off the skateboard at
that point there was another indication that he was riding and earlier than that
riding a skateboard around with a girl named Lakeisha Freeman down the road from him but there's no no indication of
him being on the skateboard after he was punished for it you know the bikes though the bikes where they were found
helps paint a very clear picture of the profile of our onsub which which really is another thing that should have tipped
police off they were going the wrong way so unless so the boys leave their bikes
on the on the ground south of the Bayou they don't the bikes never cross the Bayou with them
so they go over there so the Killer finds the boys you know where they're at and kills them now presumably the killer
didn't have murder in mind when they went that way I don't think anybody went across that pipe thinking I'm gonna kill
these three boys right now I think it just happened out of out of Rage or it was you know it probably started as a
mistake but my point is they wouldn't have thrown the bikes into the Bayou yet the bikes got thrown into the Bayou as
part of concealment which tells you after the boys were killed and after the boys were put into the water and the
crime scenes concealed after that the killer throws the bikes in the water which tells you that the
killer came and went from the neighborhood not the highway where the West Memphis Three came and went from
that they were saying right from like the truck wash from the from the highway from over in Marion
the killer had when they exited the crime scene went back across the bite the uh the pipe seized the bikes there
and knows those bikes are going to be a clear tip off that that's where the boys
are so they throw the bikes into the Bayou so no one knows to go look in that direction and you talked about your test
of caking the guy in mud and having him run through um run through the water and so on and
so forth talk about your the interesting test you did regarding was it was it pig
or chicken that you did in the in the water down there yeah so we this was this was prior to the filming of the TV
series we just did this when I started my investigation uh myself and and Mike my uh co-host and producer and our music
guy Shane Yoder who happens to be from Tennessee not far from there we all spent a week in West Memphis and you
know I looked at the medical evidence and I had you know there's there's the theory out there and what seems to be
pretty much scientific proof proven evidence that most of the the the injuries on the boys came post-mortem
from animal activity and namely from Turtles and then people say well that's crazy that would never happen and you
know the the people who believe the West Memphis Three are guilty fight that so I
wanted to know two things first I wanted to know a are there turtles in this Bayou and B how will those Turtles react
to flesh in the bayou so the first thing we did is we went and we bought a couple of uh just raw
chickens tied them to ropes set up GoPro cameras and we said all right I'm gonna throw
these in the water the GoPro battery will last about four hours and then we'll come back and pull these out and
see what we find throw the chickens in the water when we go walking back four hours later we see turtles everywhere
just scatter just away from the chicken which was pretty shocking and then we pulled the chickens out of the water and
there's nothing in four hours there was nothing left of those chickens but a skeleton
and so we we go back and we pull the GoPro footage and sure [ __ ] within 20 minutes of us putting that meat in the
water the Turtles start coming and it's it's all turtles it's not big snapper turtles
like you think there's a lot of red-eared sliders uh some snapping turtles several different species but
they they they smell that flesh and go right to it and start ripping it off the bone immediately so what that what that
tells me is you know so you you can argue whether okay this was turtles or it wasn't
Turtles but what I was trying to prove or disprove is is it possible to throw flesh into that Creek
and that Bayou and not have Turtles attack it and the answer is no we did that test several times and then we
eventually went and got uh we bought a 60 pound pig and put a pig in the water so we could have because we couldn't
work with the chickens they ate it too fast Pig's a little closer to human flesh and sure enough we watched them
doing just exactly what we see with the boys they're going for soft areas going for the crotch the inner thighs the face
the ears the turtles were just Chomp yeah those Turtles were just chomping and chewing on that pig so you can still
try and argue that you know that that wasn't animal activity but I will maintain based on what we discovered
that it's literally impossible to put any kind of meat into that by you and not have Turtles attack it and then once
we also learned how they feed at one point we did uh we put a turtle upstream and one
Downstream about 50 feet apart because you know with the theory the way the boys were positioned in the bayou you
know Chris Byers and and Stevie Branch had much more activity what many more wounds than
Michael Moore well they were Downstream of him so if they feed by scent my theory was if I put a chicken Upstream
in one Downstream the one Downstream should get more damage than the one Upstream because they're you know
they're they're following the scent upstream and the first one they come to is going to get it the worst and sure
enough that's what we found that you know if we had two in the water one 50 feet further north than the or further
Upstream than the other one the first chicken would get eaten to the Bone and you would only find in that same period
of time only a few bites and the one that was further Upstream but if but if you only put one in then that one
obviously gets the full brunt of it so that explains why you have the the the demasculation of or emasculation of
Christopher Byers the um how badly uh Stevie Branson's face was chewed up and the inner thighs of buyers and all those
injuries where Michael Moore didn't sustain as much it's because the way they feed is they follow the scent
upstream and when they did that the first one they came to was Christopher Byers a few feet away from him was
Stevie Brandt that's for The Feeding Frenzy is is horrible as that is to talk about it was occurring and then you know
Michael Moore was still 25 feet further Upstream so not as many made it you know
they're not going to leave a viable food source to get to another one okay so the and this takes us back again
Bob to the podcast there were some pretty aggressive and have been pretty aggressive allegations
against Terry Hobbs and I'm sure most people are well aware of those and maybe he is the one responsible for the deaths
of these children I certainly don't know but part of his alibi or part of the story we've always been
told involves another man named David Jacoby you had some pretty strong opinions of David Jacoby that you voiced
on your show could you could you tell us a little bit more about uh David Jacoby
and and your your thoughts on that yeah I actually um and it's gonna air here on the
podcast in the next few weeks um I I actually conducted besides my multiple trips down to Arkansas to meet
with with David and and to have conversations with him and to to convince him to do an interview but I I
ended up recording about a two-hour interview actually videoed it so we're actually gonna put it on our YouTube
channel as well um it's the only and longest interview with because he's been interviewed a
little bit here and there but it's the only full full-length interview with David Jacoby that's ever occurred uh
that we're gonna put out and I think when when you hear that you'll see some of it in the series in the TV series but
more so when you hear this interview with him you'll you'll realize that this guy had
nothing to do with this you know there's he doesn't fit the profile at all this is a guy he's got seven children
um you know actually spoke with his ex-wife and the biggest complaint anybody has with him uh from the day
from his mother and his ex-wife were the fact that he was he would never discipline the kids could never bring
himself to harm a kid um even even his own when they were in trouble you know and his his mom and his
stepmom says oh that's why some of the kids are you know getting into trouble because he never disciplined him enough
um but then but then when you hear everything that David did to try to help the defense investigators
it really becomes very apparent that this guy has no idea what happened not to mention just the raw emotion from him
but you know he one thing that I like to cite that a lot of people don't realize
David Jacoby actually allowed himself to be hypnotized to try to help remember and this was part of Amy Berg's team
that did the west of Memphis you know he was working with with John Douglas and you know he's he's very emotional about
it he was very close with Stevie and he wants to know what happened he has a hard time believing that Terry would
have anything to do with it and so of course they're trying to get him to trace down a timeline and they said well
would you agree to be hypnotized and he said yeah whatever whatever it takes so imagine if this is a guy that actually
had some knowledge of the crime do you know how day think about how dangerous it would be for that person to let
themselves be hypnotized and interviewed about it there's just there's just no way
um and there's a lot of other things that he did too to try to help along the way you know he wore a wire he let his
phone be tapped to have phone conversations with Terry Hobbs yeah to try and determine if Terry had anything
to do with it I don't think he realized at the time that they were you know they
were also trying to figure out if David had anything to do with it and he really
kind of got left hung not to dry with west of Memphis you know it was it was uh it made better TV
for them to put out you know there's the the hair the the hair found on the stump
that they you know they call the Jacobi hair that you know his hair was found in
the crime scene too um but they really did they put it out a little bit but they didn't really narrow
it down as much as they should have for the viewers to digest the fact that that
was a hair that was found on the crime scene in a public place six weeks after the crime that wasn't
discovered by law enforcement and it matches like I don't remember like seven percent of the population of the world
you know essentially if you take the the the odds of that belonging to any particular individual and take the
amount of people that we know for a fact we're on the crime scene there I don't remember the number but it
was it was several it'd be something like nine of the people that were at the crime scene
that hair would they also couldn't have been excluded from it so it was what it ended up doing is it ruined the guy's
life you know he he ended up you know he would go to the grocery store and people
would throw he told me a story about someone throwing a head of lettuce at him at the at the Walmart when he's
trying to buy his groceries called him a child killer spray painting child killer
on his on his car they ran him out of West Memphis which is really sad because when you talk about the west of Memphis
the documentary one of the things that always stuck out to me about uh David is when he was telling the story about how
Stevie would be doing something and Terry would be getting angry uh keep that up I'm going to bust your butt I
think he talks about marbles or something and he would talk uh and it seems like this would be a current that
happened multiple times where Stevie is getting on Terry hobbs's nerve and then David would kind of come to the rescue
well if I talked to Stevie if I play with Stevie then Terry Hobbs will get his Focus off of Stevie right
and I I don't think that once we air our my full interview with him especially the video version of it
anybody that can watch that and watch this man struggle through his emotions and what he went through and how
desperate he is to find out who killed those boys if you can watch that and still say that you think he had anything
to do with this then more power to you because I can't I mean I'm I'm I I would I would let David Jacoby babysit my kids
any day of the week he's he is he's an extremely kind man dedicated father dedicated grandfather and and there's
just absolutely no way he had anything to do with this now as far as west of Memphis documentary what do you make of
the Hobbes Family secret it's it's hard to put any weight into that um it made good TV maybe it's true I
mean certainly that you know that that guy came forward with that information but uh I think there's just too much at
stake you know there was they were offering such a big big reward it seems unlikely to me that if Terry
Hobbs actually did this that he would just share that information with it with with his family
to where they're just discussing it over a game of pool in the basement or whatever so
um I don't know it's possible but I don't I personally I don't think it's all that all that credible
[Music] foreign [Music] what is interesting though in regards to somebody like Terry Hobbs or maybe even
John Mark Byers is some of the injuries to the boys which I I get gets a little dicey when you're trying to look through
all of this because we do know that there there may have been marks and bite marks and and different
things that that occurred to the the bodies after the fact but some of this appears to be reactionary and what Mar
Leverett pointed out and I believe was an article in the Arkansas times in 1994.
this is still when a lot of the area really believed these teenagers did this she points out in a wonderfully written
article about the the criminal problems that buyers and Terry Hobbs ran into and some of that in regards to
Terry Hobbs shows signs of abuse on other people and that's where I have a hard time you
know I go I go back to the injuries of reactionary and what you said earlier about
there's no reason to believe that that the person went into those woods with the intent to kill
but may have reacted to something it went too far and maybe now I have to I I've I've accidentally killed this one
boy and now I need to kill these other two boys yeah I mean that that's my theory of exactly my theory of what
happened that there was probably a punishment of some kind that that went too far and then now you got two
witnesses and I mean it takes a a sociopath of not a psychopath to to then turn onto two innocent eight-year-old
kids and intentionally kill them uh but it's the only way that crime scene makes
sense to me well what do you make of Mark buyers pass in the lie detector I don't think it matters honestly and
that's you know if you look at there's a lot of people there's still a lot of people matter of fact we had people that
were you know actively involved with our investigation on our Facebook page um you know our groups and stuff that
we're kind of friends of the show during this case that knew the case really well
that eventually just kind of got pissed off and wouldn't talk to me anymore because I I didn't agree with them that
Mark Byers is a likely suspect but the thing about Mark Byers is he's Alibi I think Nick mentioned it
earlier he's Alibi 100 through the entire time and I interviewed someone that no one's ever heard from before
that you would have seen on the show or you're going to see in the show this weekend and that's Ryan Clark who's
Chris Byers brother and you know he was I'll tell you right now he does not like Mark Byers he's
even told me that he thinks Mark Myers had something to do with it but then when he walks me through the day he you
know so forget everything we know up till six o'clock so at 5 30 Mark finds Chris
riding the skateboard down the middle of the road grabs him takes him home that's
when he gives him the spanking and makes him clean under the carport that's confirmed by uh by Chris's mother
Melissa Byers she told police the same thing that he came home he got the whooping he was cleaning under the
carport Mark leaves to go pick up Ryan at court and Ryan says that's exactly what happened and then the thing wasn't
Ryan explained to me when they got home how that went down now mind you he doesn't like Mark and and part of him
believes Mark has something to do with it because he just he thinks you know he's a Mark was abusive and didn't like
Chris but he he told me the story of coming home and walking inside and they were
going to go to dinner and Mark comes in and wants to know where Chris is at he's
mad because Chris was supposed to be cleaning the carport Ryan witnessed his mother say he's outside I just saw him
and Mark's like well he's not out there and she said well well maybe he's upstairs and Ryan goes upstairs and
looks and they start looking around the neighborhood and from that point forward
Mark was with either Ryan or Melissa or both throughout the entire rest of the evening while they're searching so it it
it seems to me impossible for someone to think that you know what kind of theory
could you have about when he found him and killed him if when he comes home with Ryan
Melissa his wife and Chris's mom says while you were gone with Ryan I saw Chris outside so we know Chris is home
alive and safe at that point and when he gets home Chris is already gone so there's just there's no way to make Mark
Myers fit into the suspect pool and then he's actively looking for Chris with another person throughout the
entire evening and night that's what one thing we were able to do on our show was
just point out there's just no time for him to have done this and he's also the one that's like raising the the flags
here the he's sounding the alarm Bells because I think they're out driving around and he stops and talks to an
officer and says hey uh my kids we can't find him we were supposed to go to dinner he was supposed to be home we've
been out looking for him we can't find him anywhere should I report him missing and I believe that Officer says you know
it's it's still it was still maybe uh Twilight at that time I guess and we still got a little bit of daylight left
and so why don't you just you know take it easy he'll probably turn up if if an hour or so from now you still feel the
same way call it in and I and he's the one that phones the police at a what about eight o'clock I think it was
around that time period to to notify that that Chris is missing and on top of it he seems clueless that two other boys
are missing because um Michael Moore's mother comes across the street and then says
to the officer yeah I my my son is missing as well I haven't seen him since this time and when you really start
putting together the the time frame of these possible and I do want to stress this though these possible eyewitness
accounts of having seen the boys because I don't know that I fully believe every
single one of them and we all know from doing this for a long time that eyewitness accounts are are pretty
unreliable in general but I do believe that some of these sightings occurred and that they that
they were correct and I'm not gonna willy-nilly pick which ones are right and wrong but
it doesn't allow for the timeline for anything to for for Mark buyers to have done anything to Chris let alone the
other two boys as well just it just doesn't fit it's it's damn near impossible right and the only way you
know there's a theory called the manhole Theory out there and there there's a bunch of different crazy theories that
you know he like rode a boat down the bayou late at night to put the bodies in there and it just
it just it just in my opinion those those are just not possible you know like I said you know that doesn't make
any sense at all um he just you know Mark's problem is and I've met Mark I interviewed him you
hear from him quite a bit on the podcast um during season five but you know he's
you know he's changed his story a few times he's a very Dynamic guy he's not you can tell by his past he's not a
great guy and so he rubs a lot of people the wrong way and so I think he you know
people love to hate him but at the same time you know it to me that's no different than Damian eckel you know
people will say well Damien's changed the story he was a liar and he was a Satan worshiper it's like well you know
even if he was a liar and even if he was a Satan worshiper that still doesn't mean that he killed those boys there's
still no evidence that he actually killed those boys well and that's what's funny too is when people look at these
different cast of characters as the captain has called them and says well this person has changed their story this
person has changed their story that's why I don't like him the police have changed their story the
whole time and changed other people's story to fit their narrative and then you have people that still believe that
the the three of them did it I mean you have you know you mentioned the Hollingsworth uh earlier but we have
we have two people that and Captain said well what else what else evidence do we
have in regards to Damien Eccles well a problem for Echoes that he ran into at trial is we have the Hollingsworth Clan
who says I saw Damien Eccles and Dominique here out and they were dirty they were muddy
and it was it was late at night on the night that the boys were killed and then the police have to change that that
story a little bit themselves and they said you know Jason Baldwin well he's he's a smaller guy he's short he's thin
he's got long hair that you probably saw uh Damien with with Jason Baldwin and you're mistaken it wasn't domini's here
right even though narlene is saying nope I know my niece I know for sure that was
her but they still present that as evidence that that he saw Jason not to mention
their whole story of there being I think at one point ends up being like nine or
12 people in that little hatchback you know as the story progresses and they're reporting different times too like I I
believe there's the one of the witnesses is like an hour and a half difference from from one of the other ones
they they said they they probably sat together came up with some kind of story because again it's the reward
money that's this fueling some of of this uh confusion around the case well there's a per this old case was a
perfect situation it was it was just the wrong set of circumstances and the wrong set of
people to create this chaos because you've got you know a complicated case that's well it was made complicated and
then and then you have all of these people you know their emotions are running High everybody wants to solve
the case and then you throw this big fat reward out to a whole bunch of poor people and and just and just it's like
throwing fire on on gasoline it just it just ignites but when you're talking about the victimology it seems like you
you believe you learned a couple things one that these murders took place by one single
individual he gave us the reasons you believe for that you also believe that this person was connected to the boys
somehow but also connected to that neighborhood somehow you gave us your evidence reasons of those is there any
other things that you guys have come to conclusions about the profile of this murderer there
was a big reveal you know I've worked with retired FBI profiler Jim Clementi for about five years now and he's been
kind of a mentor to me and and I think I did a pretty good job profiling the crime scene his profile and mine were
were pretty close actually once he finally did his um but Jim is an expert for a reason and
what you'll you will see in the TV series is Jim catching something that I never caught before
and and I I guess it doesn't necessarily this may not answer your question but it's interesting along those same lines
um when he was was going through all the evidence with with Terry Hobbs you know
what his timeline what we have what's verifiable and the fact that Terry called the police from Catfish Island
when he picked Pam up um which we knew that is what happened not till nine o'clock he calls the
police and reports are missing and then has the police meet him there you know I always thought you know
that's we always let you know how Cal obviously this guy must not have a big concern why did he wait so long to call
the police and um Jim watched it and watched I watched a light bulb go off in his head and you
will have seen that on the TV series when he tells me to hit pause and said wait a minute
he called from Catfish Island and he didn't go home he waited he met them in the parking lot
there which I hadn't thought much of and he's like why wouldn't they go home Pam's son is missing
his stepson is missing they're waiting for him to go home they're terrified where would you want to be in that
situation at home right waiting for him to come home and he says this guy didn't want the police in his
house that in in Jim just I mean just poignantly that is a red that is a huge red flag this guy was calculated for
some reason Terry Hobbs the evidence seems to indicate did not want to meet the police at his house did not want the
police at his house and that's why he waited to call it catfish Island and that's why he stayed at catfish Island
to take the report instead of telling them to meet him back at the house um so again that doesn't necessarily
answer your question about the profile but it just that's where my mind went when you said that well I think your
mind also can go to the idea that if if my son was missing and I called the police I'd say oh well meet us back at
the house because maybe he showed up but if you're responsible for these murders
you would know that they're not going to show up right exactly right and if if you uh if you've seen at this point
again you haven't seen the show yet but you've seen some of the trailers and if you you see see a little bit of that
moment I'm describing in the trailers and then you you also see me sitting at a desk looking up at the sky with tears
in my eyes trying to compose myself that was that was that moment when all of a sudden it occurred to me what Pam Hobbs
must have been going through when she was forced to sit and stay at catfish Island and wait for the police when her
son was missing and she couldn't get home to see if he was there well there's a lot of thought too that he never
wanted to call police that he only did so because Pam questions him when he arrives to pick her up well did did you
call the police and he says no and then you're right it's very calculated for him to deter to decide to call them
there you know to to I gotta end her worry by phoning the police but I'm going to do
it here right now and stay here as you said that's very interesting yeah the staying here was the big part you know
because I've heard people say well maybe their phone wasn't working or whatever and he and other interviews that said
they did have a working phone but yeah the staying here is is is the big thing that's you know why not go
home and I and I just I never thought about it in that context until Jim brought that up and it's I've had a hard
time letting go of it ever since well no and I I like the fact that you brought up when I was looking at the trailer
there's this moment that you just talked about where I was like wait it was Bob teary-eyed because we've hung out uh
several times at crime con and fun events so we're always upbeat and it's good to see everybody and I saw this
clip and I went wow I think this gets really emotional but I also think it's important with these cases to
have people that are emotional about the cases and that that that these cases actually matter to them and it's just
not somebody collecting a paycheck to investigate a crime for TV on and that's one of the main reasons I'm very excited
to check this do you want to call it documentary The docu-series yeah you're gonna you're definitely gonna see
some emotion out of me uh that I wasn't thrilled about you know that I'm on I'm on you're gonna see me on camera crying
a couple times um which of course you know being the big tough Burly man that I am wasn't
wasn't thrilled with but it's the reality you know the this docu-series it's taking you the viewers along with
me while I'm doing the investigation and you're and you get to see what that really looks like you get to see what it
looks like when I sit down and you know called an interview but I'm speaking with someone who lost their child who
lost their brother and it just it wears and I'll tell you as the you know we we filmed for about three months and as the
there there was definitely a fatigue factor it's just so much sadness and so much hurt and pain that it got to be you
know a lot of the a lot of the interviews and stuff we filmed later on I'm just I'm I'm kind of a wreck because
it's just it just it just weighs on me so much I just so badly want to find the truth for these people and finally find
some justice now there are obviously a lot of question marks in regards to Terry Hobbs but are
there is there anybody else any other persons any other people that in the eyes of Bob Ruff should be Persons of
Interest and why uh there are a few others but what we really determined throughout the course of this the the
filming of the TV series and our active investigation last year is when we filmed it was
this case is only going to be solved one way and that's through science there's we're
not going to solve this case by by interviewing more people by finding more witnesses there's just
everybody's there's too much time has passed there's too much motivation there's been too much motivation with
money and with media and memories have shifted there's too much drug use and too much alcoholism and and too many
people with agendas stories are changing but we have breaks in science we have new technology that
can actually solve this case and that's what it's going to come down to so it doesn't necessarily matter who the the
person of interest are it doesn't necessarily matter if you think Terry Hobbs did it or didn't do it I'm not
saying if he did or didn't I don't know but I'll tell you that he's someone that
I think needs further investigation and what it's going to take is to convince Scott Ellington the district attorney
that that holds the keys he's the gatekeeper to the evidence to release the evidence and allow us to use new
technology and science to test it and that is what is going to solve the case and that is the only thing that is going
to finally solve this case well in the statistics show this to be true that the younger a victim the more likely that
they have it has to be someone on their Inner Circle and these victims were all three eight years old if you take a
victim that's one or two it's almost somebody inside the household because the younger you are the smaller your
Social Circle is you just don't have that much going on in your life and the the interesting thing here is with
these with these three victims with the three boys you're really not talking about a whole
lot of circles because you you're probably looking for the common themes throughout them when you talk about
victimology okay they went to the same school they lived in the same neighborhood they they were in the same
uh all three of them were in Cub Scouts I believe and then you also have the the
because they're all three friends uh just their immediate families in general it feels to me like if this killer is
known to the kids and there's a lot of evidence to suggest that it's got to be somebody in one of those
circles yeah I agree and I think that you know the the biggest the saddest part about this whole case
is that the West Memphis Police didn't do their job on day one I think that I think all of this mystery I most of us
would have never heard about this case I think it would have been easily and quickly solved had they done their job
on day one they did bad police work to begin with but they they also were not skilled in in a homicide or the homicide
of of three children but but the the thing that always fascinates me with these smaller police departments that
can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag they they turn down assistance from from
agencies that know better that know what they're doing I mean we have statements
of the State Police saying that no they didn't want our help down there in in West Memphis and the f as you pointed
out the FBI tried to get involved yeah it's it's sad you know I worked in government for a long time I was a
firefighter for for 16 years um so I worked alongside with uh you know a lot of police officers and law
enforcement but I'll just tell you that the there's definitely a marking of territory that goes on and all that it's
the same thing with the fire service you know I I've been at fires where we need
help we don't have enough people we don't have enough enough apparatus and so you know I you know when I was in my
younger years in the fire service you know as the chief you call for Mutual Aid ask the neighboring town to come
over here and help us which they would happily do and you had this mentality where and we're talking early 2000s now
not not terribly far removed from this case where you know they would a house would end up burning down because they
refused to call for help because they didn't want to admit to another municipality that they needed their help
you know that that culture thoughtful luckily and thankfully changed over the course of my career and of course for me
I was the chief by the end so I was the one that got to make those decisions um but it was the same thing in law
enforcement I think that's a lot of what you see it's just it's just people pissing on fire hydrants you know this
is this is my territory and I don't need you coming in here to tell me how to do
my job but the saddest part about it is besides that even is this case was made more complicated than it actually was
that West Memphis Police Department had certainly didn't dealt with homicides before but this was right a triple
homicide of children this is different and that's the problem is they looked at it like it was different but what they
needed to do was investigate it the same way they investigate every other case and had they done that I think that we
would have had a resolution very quickly after the boys bodies were found and obviously we all still have the question
of who did this but what questions do you still have about the case you know that's I think that's the only one
that's left for me I mean there there's a lot of minutia I mean you can get in I
mean every the Callahan website is one of the greatest resources ever made available for any True Crime case ever
you know literally you can go through every single document in the case and that's and and what's not on there I've
I've viewed and copied myself when I went into the DA's office to go through their files so I've looked at all and
certainly there are a million unanswered questions but it kind of comes back to what I mentioned earlier that what what
I've realized is there's not going to be a glaring answer in those files there's
not going to be a glaring answer in a new witness you know we we found new Witnesses you're going to hear from
people this weekend that you've never heard from before but that's not what's going to solve the case that what's
going to solve the case is going to have to be forensic so so my big question is
who did it the answer is sitting right there in front of you and all we need to do collectively as as a people on both
sides of this I just want the truth is to force that issue is to convince Scott Ellington and the State's Attorney's
office to allow the evidence to be tested and allow us to find the truth look when you watch west of Memphis you
just want to strangle the guy they're basically saying look we have enough evidence to convict these guys but
there's resources and then he even says that he hasn't even dove into all the evidence
so when he makes that statement he's basically telling the community we believe these three individuals are
responsible for murdering three eight-year-old children and we're going to release them to the public to me that
that's the most [ __ ] I've ever seen like if you actually thought that these three
individuals killed these three eight-year-olds you would never release them to the community ever because there
will always be a threat to the children all they did was we want you to admit that you're you're guilty of the crime
so you can't sue us for the time that we made you serve right it's the Alfred plea is
it's one of the worst pieces of our criminal justice system and it's not what it was ever intended to be you know
it was essentially the alpha plea came from a case where you know the the you weren't allowed to plead guilty to
something if you were innocent if that makes sense so that's what that's where that plea came from was a guy that was
like well I'll plead guilty to take this deal but I didn't do it while a judge was not allowed to accept that plea this
ruling came in to where they said okay for this certain circumstance will allow you to plead guilty but still maintain
your innocence and then that got turned into what we now known as the Alfred plea where prosecutors offices use it as
a as a punt is an easy way out to say okay well I'll dangle your freedom in front of you you can go home and not
have any more risk of being in prison but you have to plead guilty and be a convicted murderer for the rest of your
life in order for that to happen and that way I get to say we got the right guys I don't have to further investigate
this because look they pled guilty when I see uh Stevie Branch Christopher Byers
Michael Moore these three eight-year-old victims are victims multiple times their their
victims uh one of uh abuse then there are victims they're murdered then they're victims in the sense that the
whole case becomes about three other victims and then then they become victims again
by by the courts not standing up and saying that we we believe that these individuals are guilty if you if you
thought they were guilty you would never left let them out but you let them out you have them make
a plea where now the case is closed and in the eyes of the law they're not going
to investigate this anymore so what we're never going to know all right well that's what we're hoping to
change with it and this will a lot of what I keep saying about the Ellington the forensic evidence will make a lot
more sense after this weekend when you see that when you see the series but you know we we've discovered there's there's
new technology out there that you know we you know I went to California to meet with
um a forensic DNA specialist that uses the mvac DNA collection technique and and that doctor she's convinced that if
you give me this evidence I can tell you who did it and we're we can't get Scott
Ellington to pull his head out of the sand long enough to allow that testing to be done well but it's all going to
take public pressure and that's my only argument against Baldwin Eccles and Miss Kelly is
that you stated in a documentary that you could do more once you get out and if this is true like you said that
there's evidence that can be tested these three individuals should be yelling from the rooftops and using
their platforms to get the community behind this to to stir possibly some movement because like you
said like I said if there's no public pressure normally nothing gets done well and that's what you're going to see this
weekend is all three of them asking for this DNA testing and that's the reason why uh Damien and Jason participated in
the in the docu-series you know they're not making any money off of this or anything they're a part of it because
they believe that our process here in our investigation can actually lead to the truth and and actually figure out
who killed those three little boys that's why they agree to participate and there's only one person that's holding
up that testing right now and it's not Damien it's not Jason it's not Jesse they've all said they're all for it
there's only one person stopping this case from being solved and that's Scott Ellington
[Music] how about a little recommended viewing you guessed it it's the highly anticipated the Forgotten West Memphis
Three available on demand on oxygen watch our friend Bob Ruff on the Forgotten West Memphis Three and I've
had a chance to watch both parts I'd give it five bottle caps out of five and until next week be good be kind and
don't let it foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music]

The Forgotten WM3 /// Part 2 /// 387

Part 2 of 2

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This week we are very excited to be joined in the Garage by friend of the show Bob Ruff! Bob is the host of the very popular Truth & Justice podcast and Executive Producer and star of Oxygen’s The Forgotten West Memphis 3. Beer of the Week - Dortmunder Gold by The Great Lakes Brewing Company Garage Grade - 5 out of 5 Bottle Caps

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Brief Summary

Bob Ruff discusses the West Memphis Three case, revealing insights on suspects and the need for scientific testing to find the truth.

Key points

Welcome to True Crime Garage. Hosts Nick and the Captain introduce the show and thank listeners.
Craft Beer Cheers. The hosts enjoy a smooth lager and thank their supporters.
The Risk of Concealment. Discussion on the concealment of bodies and the risks involved.
Turtle Experiment Reveals Shocking Truth. An experiment shows turtles will attack flesh in the bayou.
David Jacoby's Alibi. Insights into David Jacoby's character and his connection to the case.
David Jacoby's Character. A heartfelt endorsement of David Jacoby's integrity and parenting skills.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

The only reason to conceal the bodies is typically because they think people might know.

Discussion about the concealment of bodies in a crime.

4:00WatchNov 15, 2022

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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