The Case Against Adnan Syed: Part 4 | Forensic Files

How was your weekend, Captain? It was good. Good. I got to see Kristalia and Mike Lanoce.
Mhm. It's always good to see them. Very good comedians. I didn't get to go. I was busy with some other things, but
uh I was excited that you had asked me to join you. Uh sorry that I couldn't. I know that they always put on a good
show. The The time that I saw them before with you, it was one of those side-splitting,
you know, you even cry once or twice because you're laughing so incredibly hard. They put on a fantastic show, so.
Well, Mike Lanoce has um dick towels that that are for sale. Mhm. And he just came out with the new
version, the magnum dick towel, so those are available for sale now. Okay. If anybody's interested.
If anybody's interested in uh purchasing one of those. Right. Good thing he got the big one
skull. Yeah. He won't be using one, but Yeah. Yeah, so that was fun. And then uh look
at you know, looking forward to part four. Even though uh Rabia, she released a lot
of the information, they kept on talking about that there was a huge bombshell that was going to be dropped.
And so I guess the story goes that somebody got a hold of this. I believe it was like the Sun,
the Baltimore Sun or something got a hold of the information that they're going to be releasing and was kind of
unaware whether it's going to be on episode 3 or episode 4. Mhm. I thought there was some pretty big
bombshells on episode 3, but then I was told that a lot of that stuff was gone over on Undisclosed. So, I didn't listen
to every episode of the Undisclosed podcast. So, I didn't know some of that. So, I thought that was a pretty big
bombshell. And so, I believe it was Thursday or Friday Rabia released some of the DNA
testing that they then released on episode 4. And I thought uh episode 4 was pretty powerful. And
then I think overall uh just looking at the documentary as a whole it was very good. I mean, it could have
been eight parts. They could have went into a lot more detail, but it was almost
a continuation of Serial and a continuation of a lot of the coverage that has already been done. Mhm. So,
it's almost like they had the the viewer uh almost they started with the idea, we're
going to assume that these viewers know a little bit about the case already. Mhm.
But it's very good. And if you haven't watched it, spoiler alert, but also check it out. I think it was
really good. Yeah, I thought the four-part series was good. Um my general thought though was it was
kind of like reading a book for the second time or watching a movie for the second time almost because like you
said, most of the stuff you know about it going into it. Uh and so, for me a lot of it was just putting some visuals
to stuff I had already read or heard. Uh but yeah. Yeah, Correct. Yeah. I I did think it was
good. The um one thing that I found incredibly interesting that I did not know was the idea that Adnan was eventually
offered some kind of deal. Right. And So, so basically what the deal was was that he would plead guilty
Mhm. and then he had to spend another four years in in prison. Now, you can look at this deal in two
ways. One, he'd have to admit that he's guilty. It's not an Alford plea. And that's kind of a whole separate
thing and a lot of people know about that, but you have to say that you're guilty of a
crime. Mhm. With the Alford plea you're basically pleading guilty, but with the idea that
you're innocent, but that the state has enough evidence to possibly convict you.
And so you're basically admitting to that they have almost or they you're admitting to the fact that they have
enough evidence to convict you. Right. So, this one's different because um This is a straight-up guilty.
Yeah, and then he talked about how that would be lying to his, you know, if he said that he did it, you know, then that
would mean that he was lying to his family, lying to Sarah Kenick, lying to all these other people.
And uh he didn't want to do that. But I also think it's also tricky, too, because
at the time of their appeals, they were winning the appeals. Mhm. So, after you win a couple,
you know, do you take your chances? And then after his conviction is then um you know,
the conviction was overturned and then they overturned that on appeal. Mhm. So, they went from going, "Well, he's
guilty." to "Well, now he's innocent until proven guilty. Oh, whoops, no, no. He's back to guilty again."
Mhm. So, I wonder if he would change his mind about taking that deal after that conviction came down because
after that appeal was revoked, basically, a new trial, you're looking at maybe two to four years before anything will
happen with this case. Mhm. Yeah, it's a weird thing, man, because trying to put myself in his shoes is
impossible to do for many reasons. One, he's been in prison for what, almost 20 years?
Well, on his feet or in his shoes. Well, and so one, I wouldn't know what it's like to
be in prison for almost 20 years, but two, Right. he knows 100% if he's guilty or
innocent. Right. I still don't know 100% either way. And as someone who has probably
questioned his innocence more than I've questioned his guilt, if that makes sense, meaning I I lean
toward the side of if I had a if I had to divide it up into 100, I would say 51 52% of me feels like
he's guilty. And so therefore, it's one of those weird things that I I kind of felt like
maybe I'm putting too much weight into this, but it almost feels to me like someone
who was guilty, I think would take that deal before someone who was innocent. And him not taking the taking that
kind of way out or easier way out, I mean, I thought it was kind of it's kind of powerful stuff. Even even though
it doesn't convince me one way or the other, but it does make me contemplate the
whole thing a little differently. Well, I think, personally, that I think if you went into this
four-part series and you looked at it as, you know, 50% guilty, 50% innocent, you should
be walking away. I think they showed enough evidence. And And you really have to go through
the detailed reports of the DNA testing that they did. What's kind of little weird to me is
that the testing that they did do, uh they talk about the uh defense attorney, Mhm. how they went over the pieces that
they wanted tested, and some of the stuff they didn't have tested. And that kind of seems a little fishy to me.
Like, why, you know, why not just have it all tested? But, you know, so if she did scrape somebody, like the
fingernail um, DNA that they had, if she did scratch somebody, it was not Adnan.
So, there's that, which I think is pretty big. And I think the other thing um, that was
pretty big was that there was no DNA of him found on her. Now, we know that Jay claimed that he's wearing gloves,
but I would think in the struggle of killing somebody, which the way the cops said it was done
was inside her car, probably they're guessing that he used his hands. And if it was done in that manner and
such a small confined area, if she fought back any, which you would assume that she would,
that there would be some kind of DNA of his left on hers. And there's there's no evidence of that.
So, I think that's pretty big, and I think when you come out of this, if you're not leaning more, you know,
60/40 that he's innocent, I think it's just not examining the the information enough.
Well, and I I still I still stand by the way that I felt before watching the four-part series, but I also want to
throw in there the other way that I feel is while I lean towards guilt for Adnan,
even with just Serial and Undisclosed and anything that that has come about since then, including the four-part
series on HBO. I've always kind of felt like this thing should go to trial again. I I
feel that there's enough reasonable doubt that that this thing needs to be examined
again and and hashed over again. Well, you basically have no physical evidence and your whole trial is based
off of guy Jay Wilds, which by all of his friends' accounts, he's a liar. So, just that alone, when that's all you
have, and you can poke holes in the story, and then if you ask Jay Wild, "Well, what
about this or what about that?" He'll go, "Well, the Best Buy scenario, that was
that was come up by the cops. Mhm. You know, the timeline, we know for a fact was altered because of the cops.
So, we have a situation where you have a guy, Jay Wilds, liar. On top of that, the cops are making him lie.
And that is what convicts somebody, and that is absolutely ridiculous and definitely deserves a fair trial.
Even if you think he's 100% guilty, if you told me he doesn't deserve a fair trial, I'd say, "You're a moron."
Right. You know, because it's uh it Like I said, if if there was more to convict him on other than just
somebody's story, and then, you know, I thought it was interesting, too, cuz in part four, they
said, you know, we got a hold of we got a hold of Jay Wilds. And Jay started saying, "Well, look,
what happened was that I think he said it was like 10 lb to 15 lb of marijuana Mhm.
that Adnan wanted Jay to get. So, Jay got that. And then, once he got that that that amount of
weed, Adnan basically said like, "Look, I'll turn you in if you don't help me bury
this body." Right. And I think that's just a loaded [ __ ] story. I mean, you're going to tell me that you had
plans to take his car because he he also says, "We planned this. I was going to take
his car and tell take his cell phone and he was going to call me." So, from the that time that you had the car and the
cell phone, which we have a wreck like we have knowledge of where you were at that day,
you're going to tell me that you got 10 to 15 lb of marijuana and you have no money anyways.
And then somehow that Adnan's going to turn that against you? I mean, it it it the story doesn't make
much sense at all. And the fact that it's ever-changing. I mean, this new trial uh should be
happening right away. Well, and one thing that I've always wondered about as far as Jay's
involvement goes is is it seems to me like if Adnan was planning on killing Hae Min Lee, that it would have been
easier to to chance getting away with it if he would not have involved anybody else.
Right. And so, it always seems weird to me when we have Jay saying, "Well, not only did
he involve me, but it to the point where he's threatening things against me if I
don't help him." And you know, so where I've always called that that part of the story into
question because I really believe that it would have been easier for Adnan to possibly get away with this
if nobody else were involved. But then I have to remind myself, "Well, if Adnan did do it, he's 17 at
the time and some of the things some of the actions some of the plans involved may not make sense to us as
adults or us as people that have had time to think about this scenario so where he may not have put so much
thought into it or good thought into it before this went down. Well, I think this also proves that one,
where's his motivation? Where's motive Where's Adnan's motivation? I think they did they don't do a good
job of proving what that motivation is other than a jealous ex-boyfriend. Hmm, that's weird. We have
a lady coming forward that's came forward multiple times that puts him in the library. So there goes an alibi
during the the time period that the cops claim that she's being murdered. So that
makes it makes zero sense. And then we have the timeline of that day which we know is fabricated by the police. So
then you have to start assuming what else is fabricated by the police. And one of the things that they pointed out
was the amount of debris that was on those car tires should not have been there based on the weather
that this car was you know, the expert basically said, "Look, if they had a bet, it looked like the
car had recently been moved there." Mhm. And we also had a neighbor in that area
that said, "Look, if this car was there for a long time, we would have known." Mhm.
And they didn't they didn't remember a car being there. So we have that. Then on top of that, one of the
Well, not only known, but they they state that their general reaction to seeing a car there for more than a week
or two would be to call it in to the authorities to have it towed away. Right. And some of the things they're
not mentioning is that license plate was run run a couple times during the time that they claim that the
car was missing. Well, why would it why would that be run by the cops? Why would that license
plate be run by the cops if they didn't see the vehicle somewhere Mhm. and and thought it was suspicious. So
they didn't bring that up and they also didn't bring up the track coach, even though the track coach can't say with
100% certainty that Adnan was there because he didn't take attendance. He said, "Look, if Adnan wasn't there, it
would have threw up red flags." So, I think that, but I also think they pointed pointed out a couple really
interesting things. One, Seller, the guy that found her, how close his house is to the high
school. Mhm. Very close. The fact that he has Now, here's what's strange though to me.
If he took her back to his house, this guy has been known to actually like flash himself, basically, right?
Mhm. I think he's been arrested on it. So, he bring, you know, let's say he gets, hey,
somehow, brings it brings her back to his house. The validity when you look at those
weird diamond shapes, which are a lot smaller than I thought they were. Mhm. Um but to see these weird diamond
shapes, one I always wondered if that had something to do with she had a bag that
held balls in it, like a ball bag, in her trunk. I always wondered if those diamond shapes came from that, but they
looked very solid and not like now, you know, there would be a more of an outline than
a solid block shape. Mhm. So, the fact that these investigators, now that was another thing that wasn't
clear in the documentary. I think one of the things that they did a bad job was they have two guys that are
investigating the case. Yeah, two private investigators that that helped out. And it just didn't seem that clear cuz
they didn't keep reintroducing what they were finding. And they said, "Look, here's a piece of equipment that this
guy would be known to use. And look, that's a connection. He's the guy that found her. He found her 40
like something like 40 yards away from the road. Mhm. This is a far away. Like why are you
going so far into the woods to take a leak? It didn't make a lot of sense, but what
also doesn't make a lot of sense though is his motivation would be what? Probably sexual.
And it looks based off the DNA that there wasn't a sexual assault. Mhm. So was it a a sexual assault attempt and
he just botched it and this this is the result? Um you know, a possibility. And then we have Don where they, you
know, go over his alibi. And I don't give a [ __ ] about Don, Donnie. Don't give a [ __ ] about Donnie.
Because I don't give a [ __ ] about his alibi cuz one they say, "Look, it it'd be weird to
have two texts at that time." So look, if your mom is involved or your mom's girlfriend or whoever else is
involved in your work, to me your mother or a family member giving you your alibi to me is no alibi.
Well, possibly giving. Providing. That we can't prove that that's how Right. He has an
But I'm saying that there could be involvement, so I'm going to say no alibi, right? So fine, no alibi. But
or tell me there's an alibi. Tell me that it that maybe it works out on some level.
I will never get over the fact that your girlfriend's missing and you don't try to make contact.
Mhm. I understand you know, for a long time I thought, "Well, it's kind of strange that Adnan
never contacted Hae." Contacts her the night before, says, "I got a cell phone. Hey girl, got my cell phone, got my
shitty ass mustache. Looks like I just drank a bunch of chocolate milk. I'm I'm sorry, but Adnan's mustache in
high school was so bad. Uh but anyways, so he calls Hae the night before. I always thought
why didn't Adnan try to contact her? Page her or something. I understand not calling the house,
but she has a pager. Like and now he says, "I don't remember if I called her." Well, I think we could find out through
the call log if he did or not, like his call log. But let's just assume he never called
her. Little fishy. Right. You know, stinks a little bit. But what stinks more? The ex-boyfriend
that's friends with her, not contacting her when he's also in contact with all of her friends,
and all the friends are updating each other? Is That's not as fishy as her boyfriend
not contacting her, not reaching out once, not going, "You know, I might want to just call her pager, see
what's up." I mean, look at the Shafer case. Boy goes missing, girlfriend calls the
cell phone almost every day. Right. It's going straight to voicemail. She keeps calling.
So, can't pick up the phone, Donnie? I mean, I wish I wish in this docu-series they
would have dove into that a little bit more. So that bothered me. So we got the car
being moved. I I think there was proof of that. I think that's shady. I think the cops made that
up. Well, we have we have a quote-unquote expert who says I if I had to bet on it, I I believe the
car was moved. Right. We we don't know for certain that it was moved. Right, but if you look at that picture
and you see all that debris on those tires and then you look at the other vehicles around it without the debris on
the tires, you just go, "Uh this doesn't line up. Something's wrong here." So, again,
uh gut feeling is it's moved. But the I think the biggest thing for me, I mean, again, this this 10-lb of weed story
makes zero sense. And this is another just Jay Wilds is [ __ ] That dude is [ __ ]
You know, and all the crimes that, you know, he's probably ratted on everybody. So, I just want to I I want to end my
thoughts on on a couple things. Well, I want to couple more things I want to go over.
The The fingerprint on the rear view mirror. Mhm. I think that is huge. Now, if we had some DNA
and we do have DNA, but what I'm saying is if we had some DNA code and that I could get DNA
from Sellers or I can get DNA from Donny, I'm testing the DNA myself. I am finding the match.
I am going to trial. I am screaming at the rooftops. Guess what? We got a DNA match and we found it and this is who it
is. Mhm. That's what I'd be trying to do. I'd be going to complete offensive here and you
have to do something that shakes up the system so much to say, "We figured this out cuz you were too
lazy to [ __ ] do it." So, I think that's that's one. But then the other thing is that we have that
fingerprint. Now, I know it's Look, it's a lot easier to follow somebody around and wait for
them to drop a cup or put out a cigarette or whatever. But that fingerprint, I think matters
because if that's Sellers' fingerprint, then Sellers guilty. Right. Lock him up. If that's If that's Donny's
fingerprint, now I think you can argue that away a little bit. But it doesn't match Adnan and it
doesn't match Jay. Well, in the the reason why you could possibly explain it away if it were
Donny's is that Sellers has to have been in her vehicle at any time ever. Right.
So, where you have Donny, where you could you could someone could present the argument, yeah, I I drove her car
once or I was in the car multiple times for this reason or that reason. The The thing that I think is tricky here with
the DNA and with the fingerprints and I think they could have been Well, Well, I know they could have been, but
furthermore, I think they should have been a little more clear during that conversation because when you watch that
part, it's not so much like them listing hardcore facts for you. It's three guys
having a conversation. And you're listening in on it and they're like, okay, well, there's a
fingerprint and then there's this DNA and basically they're going through and saying, okay, well, the DNA doesn't
match anybody in the system. Well, the fingerprint doesn't match anybody in the system.
The tricky thing with that fingerprint in regards to Is it Seller or Sellers? Sorry.
I think it's Sellers. Okay. I'm not 100% sure on that, but The tricky thing in regards to it
possibly the fingerprint possibly belonging to Sellers is when they say the fingerprint's not
found in the system, I have to believe that his fingerprints are probably in that system.
Because we know he's been convicted of of offenses before. And typically that would be
standard standard protocol. I think they explain that away somehow. That his fingerprints are not in the
system? Yeah. I The way that I took it is they were kind of guessing as to whose
DNA and fingerprints would be in the system or not. Right. seem It wasn't like somebody looking
saying, "Well, I looked up this individual and his fingerprints are in the system."
Well, what what what they did tell us was that they went back and had the cops clear all the cops basically to say,
"Well, we know that fingerprint is not any of the cops or detectives that worked that case."
Mhm. So, they did that, but I want to say that there was a reason um that Sellers' fingerprints wouldn't be
in the system. They know Don's isn't, you know, for sure, you know. Well, well, well, they don't know that
his are not. They just say, "We don't believe his Right. fingerprints would And then see, that's
what I'm saying is that that's where they that conversation was one of the most in- interesting conversations I
thought throughout the whole four-part series. Yeah, and it's a little gray and it
could have been clearer. they should have not just been clear, I think they they
they should have figured out who is in the system and who is not. And that could have really helped some
things along there because even with Adnan's, you know, like when you say that the DNA doesn't match
Adnan's, there's a good chance that Adnan's DNA is in that system because of of what he was later convicted of.
So, I really question. I think that Sellers' fingerprints would be in the system if,
you know, if if I'm going to sound like the guy that the the grass expert, let's
call him that, the the uh grass expert that they spoke to. Right. I'm going to say that if I have to
place a wager on it, I would go to the side of betting that Sellers fingerprints are in the system.
Yeah, and I could you know, look, who knows what was edited out. I I I still believe that they had a reason that
there was I can't remember off the top of my head, but it's almost like here's our reason why we don't think
he's in the system. I don't know if it was a time period or or what. But yeah, I think to me it's going,
"Hey, let's connect the DNA." And also just the amount of stuff that was left at the
scene. Like it was kind of weird cuz if you looked at like the test that they did,
you know, some of the stuff like instantly like you can go, "What?" You mean the burial site?
Yeah, but like what's kind of convoluted about all that stuff is you look at it on the roadside and you go, "Oh well, on
the roadside they found a rolled-up condom." And you go, "Oh well, [ __ ] that must be
something." But then you start figuring out that I believe that condom was roughly about 140 yards away.
Mhm. So, pretty far. But we're talking inches away from the body where there's ropes.
Right. And one of the things that I didn't get get clear on in his lawyer his lawyer
stated, "Well, on one of those ropes or wires or whatever you want to call it, there was
some DNA that didn't match Adnan." Mhm. But what they didn't tell you, ready for
this? Mhm. Ready for this [ __ ] Unknown female. What? What? Yeah. All I'm saying is if it had something to
do, which we we don't know that it even had anything to do with the the the or Hae
Min Lee or any you know, anything connected to the case. Right. It could be from anybody, really.
Mhm. It could be from a little kid just playing around, dropped it. But it's kind of suspicious to me. But
also, why would you why would you drop the this other stuff if you used a cord or whatever to for the
strangulation? Why? Why would you leave this stuff by the body? Mhm. Doesn't make a lot of sense. But again,
if you're 17 year old and you did it, maybe you would. Or maybe you're if you weren't
experienced, you were just a known, you know, I'll show you mine. And then you run and call the cops on
me. If you're that kind of dude, then maybe you're not equipped to get rid of the body, you're not equipped
to get rid of the evidence. But again, we don't know if that's involved or not. But I But I want to
bring up something that I noticed on the last episode. Episode 3. And then I didn't want to bring it up
because I don't think it's fair to just like toss in like a a theory. But when you have this piece of
evidence, possibly a piece of evidence, possibly something that has nothing to do with the case.
Thought it was really strange that when you watch Jay Wilds' trial and when they
actually sentenced him, that there's nobody on his side. There's nobody there to watch him get
sentenced. Except for one person. And that person was Stephanie, his girlfriend at the time.
So, I I found that odd, but I don't believe she was his girlfriend at the time of his sentencing.
Mhm. So, I don't understand one, I don't understand um somebody that beautiful dating somebody
so personally ugly and physically ugly as as Jay Wilds, but you know, your friends are you're in
circles with Adnan, you're in circles with Hae Min Lee. This Jay Wilds is 19, he's a little bit
of an outsider, he's also a known drug, you know, drug dealer, if you want to call him
that. And I I just did I don't understand why she was there. Now, I could be wrong, maybe
they were still dating. And if they were still dating, of course she's there for that.
But it's just kind of odd to me that she was there. Mhm. And I don't think you know, and and then the other thing
too that which just popped up into my brain is you have a guy that worked with Donny.
Back to Donny. But you have a guy that worked with Donny that says, "Look, he had scrape
marks on his arms." And and to me to me that encapsulates the whole thing. We have a missing girl. She's missing
for 3 weeks. We find her. We have a decent lead, but these detectives were notorious for
taking wit- witnesses, threatening them, pushing them to testify. I think that's what happened here. We
have cops that changed the story. We have evidence that wasn't checked. We have suspects that weren't checked.
They It's like they had a direct line to Adnan. They pursued that, and they didn't pursue
anything else. Mhm. And that becomes very difficult because if it's somebody's freedom that's on the
line, you can't go back and reinvestigate 20 years ago. You can't go back to see if Donny had
scrapes on his arms. But I bet you this. I bet money people were watching this that are
involved and they're sweating bullets cuz their day is coming. And I think what's going to happen, my
gut feeling and I've never really gone, you know, you know, innocent or guilty. I don't
like talking about that. I kind of like you, it's the idea of this guy deserves a free trial.
Mhm. Or a new trial, free trial. Free trial. He deserves a new trial. Here's your free trial and here's the
one you have to pay for. You have to pay Buy one get one free trial. But I also think it's telling and I I I
I agree with you. I mean, I think it's telling hey, if I'm guilty and I did this,
I have to admit to it, I get out in 4 years. That's such a weird thing though, man,
cuz like taking it. Yeah, that's what that's the route that I think that most people would go if
they're guilty. If they're get because and then think about this, too. You probably have
we've seen this with other cases. I've I don't know this to be true with this case, but I believe it's probably
occurred. We've seen in other cases where there's an individual behind bars for a very
long time and when in regards to Adnan, you're talking about half his life. Where family members have come to that
person and said, "Look, even if you didn't do it, just take the deal, man. We we will understand. Everybody will
understand. We all have your back. You should just take take the deal and let's be done with this. Let's move on."
Right, but the what's great is his mother is a woman of principle. Mhm. I like his family. Like that was
one thing that was neat about the four-part series was getting to see and feeling like you're getting to know his
family and I think his his brother's name is don't slap me if I get this wrong but I
think his brother's name is Yusef. I believe so. And I tell you what, I like the cut of
his jib. That the way that Yusef talks about his brother and the way that he cares for his parents and seems to look
after them. I that could be that should be um textbook for all of us out there as our
parents get older to take care of them. Well, yeah, I applaud his brother and I applaud his cousin
Rabia. I I applaud his mother and then I feel really bad. I I do feel bad for them but I feel awful for his dad
because this has just wrecked somebody and when everybody sits there and screams the
real victim is Hae. Well, yeah, no [ __ ] Sherlock. That's the real victim. But if
this guy has done 20 years for something he didn't do, he's also a victim and his
family is a victim and guess what? Hae is still a victim because there's nobody that we don't have the right person and
so she's still a victim and her family's still a victim. And the the problem with
some of these family members is they go, well, we think that they got the right guy. Well, you don't know and have you
looked at the freaking evidence because if I'm looking at this evidence and somebody murdered my daughter even, I'd
go, I'm looking at this evidence I'm going I don't know if this is the right guy and we offered him a deal and he
won't even take the deal to get out of jail in four years. We need to I would be pushing not so
much to keep him in jail but pushing for them to do a reinvestigate it. Keep him
in jail and reinvestigate it. Like let's get to the bottom of this and I think this um I mean it's slimy to me
that you'd going to take on a case and also run for office at the same time, the DA.
It's slimy. And I also think this deal, because Adnan's attorney sits there and says, "Well, man, 4 years, that's weird.
I wonder if his term's up." And then he goes, "Nah, it probably doesn't have anything to do with that, because it's
so messed up if it does." But guess what? It probably does. Cuz that's how bad these people are.
That's how corrupt these people are. And I mean, to me it just makes you know, this is not the America I want
to live in, you know? I I'm proud of our country, I'm proud of all these things,
but like this ain't right, you know? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at this evidence and just go, "Hey,
we we need to dive into this more, you know? Look, have a new trial. Have a free trial.
Mhm. Or have a have a trial that you charge him for. I don't know. It's just there's
there's a lot of victims in here, especially if he is not guilty. And I just think
the more evidence they, you know, yes, it's 20 years, but the more and more evidence that they
overturn, I mean every stone that they don't leave unturned, right? Mhm. It keeps coming up, pointing the finger
in another direction. And if the information that they were coming up with half the time pointed to a new direction
or back to him, I'd say, "Hey, I'd just leave him in there." But still all they have after 20 years
is a guy's confession to help you know, he wasn't a witness to the murder. All his confession is that he helped
bury the body. Mhm. And then And then the other stuff he's telling you that the cops fabricated.
And then on top of that he says, "Well, it's because you know, how much is a pound of weed?"
Do you even know? You know what I mean? Like Um a thousand bucks? I I wouldn't even know.
So, what you know You ask me 20 years ago, I might have a I have I might have an idea.
Yeah. His nickname was Smokey. require a pound of weed anymore. Yeah. A day. Um No, so let's just say it's a thousand
bucks roughly. But you think like a known liar right? Not saying like he's malicious or
anything, but his friends are like, "Yeah, Jay's a bullshitter." A drug dealer is not going to give a
bullshitter 10 lb of weed. And I'd also think that it'd be pretty hard to find 10 lb of weed within a
a few hours. So, I I don't know. This It This all stinks. This This This This case
is as bad as Adnan's high school mustache. Well, the the the problem amongst other problems is Jay Jay is
just not believable in any form at all. And he is the Look, the thing is the problem too. And
And this is I I see it as the problem, but but it's the truth of the matter is that
Jay doesn't He only needs to be convincing on on one day, and that's the day of Adnan's trial.
Right. And he only has to convince some of the people in that room. And so really when we're talking about
well, they they need to continue the investigation. There is no investigation. There are I mean, there
might be private citizens, and that's what they are. Be it Be it lawyers, investigators, family members, whomever.
The only investigation you have going on is conducted by citizens. Law enforcement's not going to reinvestigate
this because it it it already went to trial. There's already a conviction. There's already someone sitting behind
bars. The case is closed as far as they're concerned. So, the only movement you have a chance of getting is
something happening within the court system itself. Right. And until he is Well,
cleared of the murder or can't be convicted of it, then they're they're not going to investigate anything
further. Mhm. And the problem is you have Jay's ever-changing, slightly-changing stories
that have changed since the trial date, but that's that doesn't even factor into
the equation anymore because again, he only has to be convincing on that day and to those people in that
room. Well, and here here's the other thing is I I feel bad. Let's assume that Jay Wilds is telling
the truth. He could Like I was telling Morgan last night, he could be lying about a thousand
things. But if he's telling the truth about one thing, that he helped bury that body,
Mhm. or that he saw her uh body in the trunk, then that's all he has to be telling the
truth of. And he's kind of came out and said, "Look, I don't care what you think
about what's true or not. It doesn't change the fact of what I saw in that car."
Mhm. So, if that's true, then what I feel bad about was he got in a situation where
the cops forced him to alter his story, and then of course he's not going to sound
believable cuz he's constantly changing his story. Mhm. And he was forced to. But
in that first trial, the only thing you have going for you if you're the DA is that we have a guy confessing to the
burial. But if the defense was on their game and knew their [ __ ] they could have proved
that this story was doctored by law enforcement. And these stories should not be doctored by law enforcement.
These I mean, we've seen it in the in West Memphis 3. It's absolutely ridiculous.
And these and these law enforcement officers should know better. And it should be about finding the
truth. But um Well, it's not that they should know better. I mean, they do know better,
right? We know that. We we know that. But but the other thing though we have to factor in and this is
this is one thing that I do have a bit of an issue with as far as the general public's perception of these types of
cases and these types of stories where you have someone that there's clearly reason to question if they're guilty or
not. But you have to keep in mind and I I don't mean these these investigators and these detectives
in Adnan's case specifically. Right. I'm talking in in general here. One thing that we need to keep in mind
is these individuals are used to being lied to constantly. And sometimes they have to try to find
their way to the truth. And sorry, we're not always going to like the way that they get to it. I don't
agree with the way that they believe they got to it in this situation or a lot of other situations. But most of us
are not in a line of work where we're used to being constantly lied to. And over years and years and years of of
being subjected to that, it can change you. And I'm not I'm not saying that that's
in defense of these individuals, but I think we we should keep that in mind when we review these types of stories
before we're so quick to crucify people for for things that we don't really understand.
No, yeah. I I agree with you on some level, but here's a situation where because of a couple cop errors and a
couple, you know, writing down wrong locations that we have a a story changing four times.
And I think at that point, once his story is not lining up with any evidence, I think at some point you got to go,
"Hey, we got to put this on hold for a second. We need to do a little more digging."
You know. Um and it's uh But sad though, because there's a lot of victims in this. I mean, if Jay's
telling the truth, he's a victim. I mean, his life has been completely altered, and I'm sure
before Serial, his life was a little more normal. I'm sure Don Donnie is the same way,
right? Now, cuz if Donnie had nothing to do with it, it's all over the place. All Hayman's friends, Hayman's family,
Adnan's family. I mean, it's you know, it's it's sad. But I think it's sad because I think the justice
system here failed. And the other thing that was so depressing to watch was when
they were watching the the voting for the new district attorney. Oh, yeah. And to know that one said, "Hey,
I don't think he's guilty. I don't think there's enough evidence, and basically I
get in, I'm letting the guy go. You can retry him if you want." That's what one of them said.
The other one said that he would uh mandate a new investigation. And then the other person said that they
never made a comment on the case before and wouldn't say either way. And you're sitting there going
two of the three is a home run for you. And it's the third one that gets voted in.
What was it though? I thought the I thought the person that got voted in never commented on the case.
No, that's what I'm saying is that two of the three or you know, or either going to let him
go free or reopen the case and that's two things you want. Mhm. And the person that won is the one that
never commented on the case. And that's the one who won. So, can you imagine his family watching the votes
come in and how disappointed they probably were. Oh, yeah. Yeah, 100%. That's what I mean. I mean like you're
going look two of the three wins, we're at least getting some help. But then the one that never made a
comment on it wins. I'd be like, oh, just what the what the [ __ ] luck that is. But
uh It's sad to hear about his mom and and hopefully um she's doing okay with that. I I I
don't know the situation enough to to comment other than that was really sad to hear.
Right. It sounded like it was stage one uh leukemia and you know, so there's there should be
a fighting chance there. So, of course, wishing her all of the best of luck and the families as well.
But um yeah, tricky situation. We have an individual that that may or may not be guilty.
The trial wasn't great to begin with and it seems like very tough to try to get this to go before a judge again.
Yeah, and um Yeah. I think they could have as far as let's just go back to the show
and talk about the show rather than the case. I think that they could have done better with the
uh private investigators. I know you mentioned that and I part of me wonders what that is. Like I
I bet you what probably happened was we have because those guys seemed pretty good. Like I I liked I liked where they
were going with the kind of outside of the box thinking on a few things. Right. I I'm guessing the reason why they
weren't part of the show more is one they have so much stuff that they got to cram into just a four-part series.
Mhm. But then two, you probably have a situation where these individuals, the private investigators, are given a list
of names of people to talk to and I'm guessing that a lot of those people on that on that list didn't talk
to them. Right. And so we probably have a scenario where these guys are going, "Yeah, we've we've
done a lot of work on it, but we don't have any information for you because so-and-so won't talk and this person
won't return our calls and so on and so forth." And so I I think that I would love to see a show
where it is more of you know you have to do the show the way they did the show, but I think you could have a
whole second show where it would be somebody like a group of private investigators that are coming up with
these different ideas and even if there's doors being slammed in their faces as they're asking questions, I
think you could see that process and the possibility of who that could point to.
Right. It It would be very interesting to see something we've talked about on this
show before where you have a list of suspects and you go, okay, well, maybe we can't circle the guy that did it.
Maybe we can't circle the name of the individual that did it, but maybe we can cross a few of these people off of our
list. And, you know, Don being one of them, Jay being one cuz I really question Jay
as well. You know, because we've seen many, many times where where someone who is guilty of much,
much more will admit to a few things while they're sitting on the hot seat. Right.
Just to get you to believe the rest of the [ __ ] sandwich that they're now going
to feed you. Right. And just because the fingerprint on the mirror doesn't match Jay, that
doesn't mean anything. That does not rule him out. Mhm. Yeah. It'd be but it the other thing is one thing that
I would again wager never happened is they're now looking at this fingerprint and going, okay, well, who
can we compare it to? Who can we cross off of the list? There would have been a different list when she was missing or
shortly after her body was found of people to check to because that fingerprint may not belong to the
killer. True. True. It could just It could just be some individual that was never questioned,
never asked about the case. It could It could belong to one of her relatives. Yeah, but I think
what's interesting, I think with a lot of cases is the the universe does its work sometimes and and and puts
pieces down for law enforcement to collect them to get the right person. Mhm. And I think for whatever reason we have
these items that just weren't tested and not followed up with and and that's just
a shame. I mean, yes, you have this confession and I I get your point that these cops are lied to a bunch. So, even
though he is lying, you have to believe the one thing. And that points to Adnan's guilt. And if
you have to believe that, you go down that rabbit hole, but you have things that you can test.
Mhm. And if you know that she clawed at somebody, where is the marks on Adnan's body?
Well, if you can't find them, But But But again, we don't know that she clawed at someone.
All we know is that there was DNA underneath her fingernails. Right. There's no one saying that that was skin
or blood. Yeah, I think that's the gray area of some of this testing, which I I understand why the defense is doing
that, but there's a part of me that would just go, "Look, it's 20 years. We don't have forever.
He's 38 years old. Mhm. We don't have forever. We need to go full offense. And if I was Rabia,
if I was anybody that was a Adnan supporter, like his the people that believe he's innocent, I would go
completely offensive, and I would do everything I can, and I wouldn't even care so much even to
Cuz I think they're doing a good job. Put it on HBO. Get it so Get the public behind this so
much that it causes the higher-ups to do something. And I think they have that power, cuz I
think they have enough people that believe in them. But now you have to prove it.
And I know that's not how it should be, because it should be innocent till proven guilty, but once you're locked
up, it's guilty until proven innocent. Oh, yeah. So, I think they need to go full
offensive, and I would do that. I'd spend the next couple years doing that. And And uh
And that would be it. Mhm. I'd give it the bit biggest run for our money for the next 2 years.
And I think they can match some of that DNA with people. And I think they can they can figure out uh
I think they can if if it's not Adnan, you it's almost like the burden is for them to prove who it actually was. And I
and I hope they continue to try. Well, the thing though, too, that that I try to keep in mind, especially when
we're going off of Jay's story, and then knowing that the detectives helped write that story a
little bit, is Not a little bit. There's a chance There's a chance that Well, we're we're
assuming. What do you know? What do you mean we're assuming? Uh in part three, it's pretty clear
that when a cop writes down the wrong location of the ping, Mhm. and then they have to call back in the
witness to get him to change the story because they wrote it down wrong, Mhm. and they have to correct that location,
that's not pretty much, that's definitely rewriting the story. Okay. But, the thing is, the only story that
matters is the story that's presented in court, the time that he's found guilty.
And so, however they arrived at that story, Right, but it's Okay. What what I'm saying is
uh going off of the thought that that Jay is not super reliable, and knowing that likely the detectives helped to
write some of that story, there's a chance though that they got the right guy, but their story's incorrect.
Yes. I mean, that that is possible, but I think if the de- if the defense simply
proved that the story was fabricated by law enforcement, that would give you enough
reasonable doubt, and that's what should have happened. If she did her work, and also just the
just the fact that incoming calls are unreliable, and just that fact alone, you can't believe that that story is
correct. That the cell phone ping technology is not scientific fact to back up this
liar's story, and that would give you enough reasonable doubt that would get him out of jail. And then
and that would have proven that law enforcement should have did their goddamn work and followed every, you
know, connect the dots. Not just take this liar's story and start fabricating the truth. And
and I understand they have a lot of cases that they have to cover. And most of the time
they're doing the best they can, and they're also getting pressure from the family and the
community to get something solved and make the streets safer. I get that. But in this case
there there should have been enough where somebody stepped back and said, "Look,
this guy's hard to believe. We need to look into this a little more." Well, all we they'll always have the tape
confession and the you know, cuz he has to sign it every time he does it. They'll They would have had that in
their back pocket. Mhm. And they could have just done a couple more steps, and I think if they would
have done that, I think um again, that would have led them either towards Adnan or away from him.
And it's I just think it's sad that they didn't get to do that. Well, and you know what? As much as
as much as we believe that we're at the mercy of the court and the court system and at the mercy of law enforcement.
We're also very much at the mercy even maybe even more so at the mercy of our own defense.
And What do you mean by that? Our defense whatever defense counsel you hire Right.
to to try to get you to to try to get the outcome to be what it actually is supposed to be.
Right. And that's where the with the system you know, a lot of people will say, "Well, the the system favors, you know,
depending on race." But, I don't even think it's that. I think it's more dependent on class.
Because if you're rich, you can you can hire I mean, look look at O.J. A mountain of
evidence. A mountain of DNA. You hire the right people. So, it's it's kind of sad though because
everybody is entitled, no matter how big your pocketbook, everybody's entitled to
a to a proper defense. And and here's a case where they hired one of the best. They just didn't know that she wasn't
up to her best because of health issues. Right. Right. And that's that's what's so wild here with the thing that you
know, I noticed right away is it's like we went out of our way to hire somebody based off of record and reputation.
Yeah. However, we didn't know the extenuating circumstances that where we we are hiring and paying for a
top rate A+ five-star defense attorney what we're actually getting is a shell of that of that once great attorney.
Right. And so, I mean, and that's the thing that I point out to that I that I try to remind individuals
of when when this case is brought up and I'm asked questions about this, about all the wrongdoings of so
you know, whomever. I try to remind him it's also it's it's also on the defense to to argue that and
it's on the defense to make a case for their client. And unfortunately, that doesn't seem to
it didn't happen in this situation. No, I mean when you have a possible alibi and you don't return the call.
That's dropping the ball and again you know, I feel bad on again on some level cuz obviously she's not in her
best best health. But um at the end of the day think it was a good um a docu-series. I'd rate I'd rate it uh
four and uh four and a half bottle caps out of five. And it was fun to dive into watching the
episode and then the next day discussing it with you because that's kind of old school true crime garage.
That's what we did before we even had a show. Well, and you know what I think is neat
about it, too, is that I would say you don't have to have listened to Serial to watch the docu-series.
Right. And I would also say that it doesn't matter if you haven't listened to Serial
yet and you've already started watching the docu-series. I don't think it matters
the order in which you do both of those. So, if if you're someone out there that
hasn't done both, don't don't stop yourself. You can you can listen to Serial later, you can
listen to it now and watch the the show later. It they they go hand in hand. Listen to them now and hear them later.
Oh.

The Case Against Adnan Syed: Part 4 Off The Record: Episode 49 Nic and the Captain discuss the HBO documentary The Case Against Adnan Syed: Part 4 www.truecrimegarage.com

Brief Summary

The episode reviews the HBO docuseries on Adnan Syed's case, discussing evidence, witness reliability, and the need for a fair trial.

Key points

The Magnum Dick Towel. Mike Lanoce has released a new version of his infamous merchandise.
The DNA Testing Revelation. New DNA testing results were released, impacting perceptions of the case.
Adnan's Plea Deal. Adnan was offered a deal to plead guilty, raising questions about his innocence.
The Case for a New Trial. Discussion on the need for a retrial due to reasonable doubt.
DNA Evidence Unveiled. A breakthrough in the case as DNA matches are discussed, raising questions about guilt.
The Unbelievability of Jay. Discussion on Jay's credibility and the inconsistencies in his story.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's a weird thing, man, because trying to put myself in his shoes is impossible.

Discussing Adnan's perspective on his situation.

5:50WatchNov 25, 2024

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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