The Case Against Adnan Syed: Part 3 | Forensic Files

I am in recovery. That's right, making the announcement here. And good for you. In recovery, I've spent the last four
and a half days Mhm. drinking beer and watching basketball. Oh. Recover recover that kind of recovery.
Yeah, it's it's it's literally going to recover until we record the show when we're drinking this week's beer. That's
about how long the recovery process is going to last for me because I've been consumed by the madness that is March.
Yeah. Which let's let's make sure that we know here that March Madness is second only
to Macho Madness. I don't know. It might be. It's Macho Madness is definitely second
to March Madness. Yeah, I I would say so. So, well, at least in the month of March.
So, I was so looking forward to episode 3 of The Case Against Adnan Syed last night.
However, still going through the madness, I was a little consumed by the tornado
of March Madness, caught up in it, and um I watched I had to push back and watch
So, you had one job and Well, and you didn't do the job. The uh the Buckeye basketball game came
on at like 9:00, and that's what time the the Syed show was coming on. So, it was I watched the the basketball game.
And then I paying you to talk about that game. I watched Well, there's some debate if anybody's
talk paying me to talk about off the record stuff, too. I don't think you're getting paid for
that, either. So, I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I
I I I I I I I I I I I I I And I thought I'll I will plop down on the couch and tune into episode 3 there.
However, I didn't make it through the episode. Right. But, I am extremely responsible,
extremely dedicated to the garage. Woke up an hour and 15 minutes early today so
that I could watch it again. Right. And start drinking again. No, recovery. I poured I Well, yeah. Well, that's part
of the recovery. I poured a little whiskey in my coffee this morning. Poured a little coffee in my whiskey
this morning. No, it's definitely more coffee than whiskey. No, we My buddy Morgan came
over. We've done this for the last two episodes because we both got sucked back into the case.
Yeah. Well, yeah. And so I I think there's millions out there that have. Yeah, and so his whole thing was, "Hey,
let's get together and actually watch the episode together and then we'll kind of bullshit."
And And so, we did that last week and it was a lot of fun. So, he came back over
this week. But, the problem is he lays on the couch like like he's po- you know, like uh Titanic.
Laying on When he When he wants her to lay down Like Janet Jackson on the velvet rope?
Yeah. Album cover? I think she Maybe she's not on the couch there, but And he takes all my pillows and messes
with them and he I have a nice blanket that he always messes up. Mhm. And And then, he doesn't fix it. It's
not like he like gets up and fixes it. He just walks out of the room. Right. Like a complete diva. And But, it's fun.
It's been a lot of fun to have him come over and and and shoot the [ __ ] about about the episodes. And I also think
we've been doing a lot of stuff where we we pause it. If we think Oh, yeah. That's fun.
something, we pause it. We kind of talk about it. Maybe rewind it to to double-check what they said.
Mhm. And it's it's definitely been pretty interesting. And he started I'm trying to find it now. Let me
I'm on our Twitter account cuz that's all it's on is the Twitter account. Um Well, while you're looking for that
on. One One This is hilarious. They started a petition on Twitter. A a This American Life petition to get
it so I can do a song for them. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's your dream. So people have been signing up. Uh which
is funny cuz I'm like, wait, you're just signing me up for more work. Mhm. Um but thank you. And then
So Morgan started this thing. You know, he he called me and said, "Hey, I want to
do this thing." And it's uh it's called Discord. d i s c o r d Discord. And you can join
It's basically multiple True Crime Garage discussions. Okay. So it's a app. So you download the app and
you can actually leave text messages or audio messages, which I think sometimes we're going to pull those audio messages
and we'll play them on Off the Record. Mhm. Um and then we can do live chats. So we
did a live chat before we watched the show. Just a little bit and we just did it
through the live chat, but just text. And I think this Wednesday at like 6:00 or something, we're going to do a
hour-long live chat. Mhm. Something like that. And and we'll actually it'll just be me
and Morgan. It'll be him in his garage and me in my garage. Oh, so you will not have to prepare your
couch for I can't handle him being on my couch that much and messing it up. I work too god damn hard
for him to mess up my god damn couch. No, so yeah, Discord is pretty cool. We just joined
um about a week ago or so. Oh, cool. Awesome. Yeah, it's cool though because you you
state what conversations you're having so you can every week people can go on there and it's not just about discussing
stuff with us. They can discuss stuff, you know, with between themselves. Mhm. Uh about the cases, you know, the case
from last week or there's a whole discussion board of just off the record. Mhm. And and then there's also a spot where
you can leave um case suggestions. So Got you. pretty neat. But it's cool because you
can actually just leave a voicemail Mhm. and not just have to type it all out. So
check that out. All right, was there anything on this episode part three? I can't remember what the title was.
Oh. Something about justice is arbitrary. There you go. Was that it? I think so.
Justice is arbitrary or something like that. Well, you know what what was interesting
for me uh right away. And and this has been the case too with with the first episode and
second episode. Is that, you know, I listened to Serial so long ago that and we've covered so many cases
since when I listened I mean I listened to the Serial well before True Crime Garage
even started. Right. And I remember enjoying it so much that I I think that very shortly after I
finished Serial, I went back and listened to it a second time. So, where I would think that at that
time I felt pretty knowledgeable about the case or at least Serial's presentation of the case.
Now, it's been so many years removed from it that when I watch some of this I to be completely frank here, I was
worried that it was going to be a little boring because sometimes sometimes like Netflix or Prime or HBO
or some somebody will come out with something that's a case that that you or I or both of us know very well.
Right. And it's it's kind of an older story and they're just now getting around to doing
a documentary about it. And a lot of times I find that that that just kind of bores me because it's like I haven't
there's not much in the way of new information. Right. Regarding Regarding this so it's like
I've forgotten enough Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Like I'm watching I'm like
Right. I'm like Oh, yeah. That this was going on and oh, yeah. They They They hinted about this a little bit but they
go into it a little bit more. I I will say this, you know, like I like I said I kind of was a little
I went into it with low expectations because I thought that it I might find it to be boring but it's been very good
and I think that each episode just keeps getting a little better for me but I don't know if that's just because I'm
getting sucked back into the case itself. Right. But is is there anything that jumped out to you as
as far as the evidence goes or anything that was presented? Well, this a lot of this episode
discussed the the cell phone pings and some of the phone calls and and their relationship to the timeline
and to Jay's story. And that was I mean that that seems to me like most of of this episode 3.
And I I found that fascinating once again and forgot I kind of forgot that portion
of of the case from listening to it a long time there's been a lot of people that have
been either on Twitter or I've seen there's some stuff on Facebook that say that
once you watch uh now I'm going to correct myself. Once you watch episode 3 there's been a lot of if you watch
episode 3 that will change the way that you look at this case forever. I've seen that posted by multiple
people. And this is before episode 3 came out. So I don't know if they were given the material early. Sometimes when
there's a documentary series they'll contact us and say do you want all six episodes we'll send them to you.
Mhm. So I don't know if that's the case here, but I've also seen that the bombshell
doesn't happen in episode 3 that it's actually episode 4 and I've seen almost identical post that say
once you see episode 4 you'll never look at this case again. Mhm. Well, I think I I and and Matt saw the and Morgan saw
the same thing. So while we're watching it we're like is the bombshell going to happen
Yeah. in this episode or is it going to happen in the next episode? Well, I don't obviously know what the next
episode is, but I I think the bombshell started happening here. Okay. we have multiple situations where Robbie has
given all this information to a very sophisticated very intelligent lawyer that goes through the whole timeline.
Well, you can see that you know, why was Jay interviewed multiple times? Mhm. If they got the story correct the first
time, they wouldn't call him back in for an interview. But the problem is that is the cops
didn't have their data right, or they would write something down wrong. So then when Jay is saying, "Well, I was
here during that time that I made this call." Mhm. That because they wrote stuff down
wrong, that that basically blew their whole case. Mhm. So then they had to go back and
interview him again for the second time. Okay, now we have the corrections. Now we're going to get you to correct
this stuff. Oh, okay, we messed up again. Now we got to go back and we got to correct the story.
Mhm. So you want to know if he's lying, he's definitely lying. Why is he lying? People That's been the
question I think from the time Serial came out. Well, he's lying because the cops need
his story to make sense with their data their data. Mhm. And that's proven, I believe,
um no doubt in my mind it's proven in this docu-series. So you have that happening, then you
also have that there's multiple cases where these detectives were threatening witnesses
to testify to basically throw somebody under the bus. And the idea that possibly Stephanie
and Jay got busted with something. Mhm. That's the rumor I've been hearing lately. It's not just Jay, but something
involving Stephanie as well. That's his girlfriend at the time. That they got caught with drugs or
something. Not his friend Jen, but his girlfriend Stephanie. And that um And again, that could be a possibility
too. What was Jen um I actually believe Jen, but we'll get back to Jen in a second.
So, the idea is that Jay, Stephanie, maybe it's just Jay. They're they find some drugs on him. He
decides, "Well, I'll give you a bigger story. If I give you this story about Adnan
killing Hae, then you're going to let me go with this stuff." Now, what he admits to could get him some
time that he'd have to serve. So, it's crazy to me that you have Adnan that is sentenced a 17-year-old at the
time of the crime is sentenced to life plus 30. And a guy that helped him move the body
and bury the body that's 19 at the time of the crime gets nothing. Gets time served.
Well, and if you believe his story or at least parts of Jay's story, not only did he help dispose of the
murder victim, but he also says that he he knew that this may happen before it happened, the murder.
Right. And on top of that, then he also moved evidence. He moved the car. Right.
Helped move the car. And so then people then the question becomes, "Well, how did Jay know where
Hae Min Lee's car was?" Well, if the cops are telling you where you were at when you made certain calls,
and that's factually incorrect, then it's not that far of a leap to assume that the cops knew where the car
was, and they got Jay to tell them where the car was. Mhm. It's not that far of a leap.
Mhm. So, there's multiple But, the just so we're clear, and and and and for my own sake,
the vehicle was not removed from that spot until after Jay tells them where it is.
Right. Yeah. Regardless of how he knows the information, the vehicle sat there until
after they claim they get the information from Jay. Yeah, and there's some evidence as far
as the license plate being run. And then the question becomes, you know, was the license plate run by
the police officers cuz they're just looking for the missing car? Mhm. And that's why they ran the plates, or
did they actually run the plates and and and that's how they found the car? So, there's some speculation there.
And he says, Jay says, or according to his statement, I'm going to get heated by the end of
this conversation, for sure, 100%. So, according to his statement, he says that they moved
Hae Min Lee's vehicle relatively quickly after the murder, after the body disposal.
Right. Right. And so, it sat there, it would have sat there for close to 6 weeks.
Something around that time frame. I did, you know what I did really like in, I think it was in episode 2, not in
episode 3, but I did really like when those guys interviewed, it was a a lady that had lived in the neighborhood for a
very long time. I think she said she moved in there in like in the '80s or the '70s.
Right. And she was saying, um, you know, they asked her something to the effect of,
"Would it be uncommon for vehicles to sit in this area for an extended period of time?" And I
think she asked them to like clarify, "What do you mean extended period of time? Like a like a week or 2 weeks?"
And they were like, "No, like we're talking like 4 to 6 weeks and without you noticing it." And she says
emphatically, she says, "No, that wouldn't have happened. I would have called me or this other lady who kind of
I love I love when you get the the the a lady or two or you get an old-timer or if it's my neighborhood, it's me, you
know, like the you get you get the the person that kind of elects themselves to be the sheriff of that that little
neighborhood. And I love that she's like, "No, me and this this other woman." And I don't
recall the either of their names. Right. Me and this other woman, we would have talked about that. We would have spoke
about that. One of us would have called so-and-so Which you know some authority to come out and look at
the car. Which gives you reason to believe that it wasn't there for 6 weeks. Right. Right. And I
And so if it wasn't there hold on, but if it wasn't there for 6 weeks and it was moved, then we don't we have no
evidence, you know, then Jay's story is [ __ ] about the car Jay's Jay could still have
very good knowledge about the vehicle, but he's but that's not the story he told to police or that the or that
police and Jay agreed on. Right. But I think before you have to figure out why would Jay lie. Okay, we
have these detectives that are notoriously known for, you know, trying to pin something on somebody and then
get getting them to confess to something. You have a 19-year-old that is not lawyering up.
He had every right to, never did, probably cuz he didn't think he could afford it.
They were able to manipulate that situation. You have documented proof that his story is inconsistent and
they're getting him to change his story. Mhm. Because it didn't line up. And look,
they basically get him to say that he's in a certain location at the time and why are you there? He's like, "Well, I'm
not really for sure why I was there, but I know I was there because that's what your call log says." Well, when you
wrote down the call log wrong, then then you got him to tell you the wrong part of town.
And so then once you realize, "Oh [ __ ] that part's wrong cuz they went back, you know, with a fine-tooth comb and
they're like, wait a second, that part of the story is wrong cuz we wrote down the wrong location. Uh we need to fix
that. And then we got to call Jay back in. And then anytime he you know, the these little knocks on the on the desk
and stuff that people talked about before. Um and I guess a lot of this information as
far as the timeline goes and and Jay's motivation for lying, I mean, we know he's a liar in in general. But you can
lie about everything but be telling the truth about one thing. We kind of talked
about that last week. But in this situation, you know, I I don't even know if you'd
call him a liar. We have the cops, look, this to me is it's [ __ ] disgusting. Your job is you know, their job is to
serve and protect the community. Their job is not to create fictitious [ __ ] stories. And when you have him confess
and then you go back through this this data, right? Mhm. And if they would have actually
understood the data themselves at the time, they wouldn't have tried to make it fit their narrative. But they thought
that this cell phone records and these cell phone pings, this is science. And people can't dispute science.
Mhm. Well, when the cover sheet states that any incoming the only calls that would
be um the only calls that are reliable I believe come from incoming calls. Right?
Mhm. Or is it the other way around, outgoing calls? I I thought it would now now here's where
I'm getting confused. I thought it was outgoing and the reason why I say that is because I thought it
had something to do with the billing where if they they want to track your phone,
let's say, to be out of its area. You know, so they can charge you more. But I guess that would work for incoming
as well. So pardon the confusion here for for those listening. There's probably somebody screaming at their
their phone right now. Um Yeah, I'll go ahead and message Morgan just to see if he can
See what he recalls. Yeah, which calls aren't reliable. But either way, there's a cover sheet that
you know, they they claim through the documentary that it was lost or whatever. I don't know if it was lost or
if it was Or the person didn't read it. Or if this lawyer just didn't read it, but
right away, their their argument, this testimony, you can the incoming calls are not reliable.
It's the outgoing calls that are reliable. Okay. Because you're the one making the call.
Right. And they want to know if you're quote unquote out of your area. Like it it's for billing purposes.
Right. But now, they also prove that this was never So now you have Jay's story and they go through Jay's story and his
confession with a map and they show you all the pings and they show you how it lines up in trial and then they put an
expert on the stand that says, "Yep, that's how this technology works." Well, he didn't know that the incoming calls
weren't reliable. Mhm. And he claims that if he he he signed an affidavit that said, "If I would have
known this information, I would not have testified." And then goes to the family of Adnan
says, "Sorry. It's my fault. Your son's in jail." Mhm. Now, I'm not arguing guilt or innocence
here. I'm just saying factually we know that the cops fabricated they fabricated a
story. We know that Jay lied and went along with it. Mhm. And then on top of that, we have their
expert witness saying Yeah, that's [ __ ] So, those are big. On top of that, before all this happens,
you got the birthday wrong. Mhm. He's born in '81. I was '81 as well. They put '80.
That means they can hold him without bail. Mhm. And they did so. And they did so on a typo.
Now again, I'm not so upset about the typo. I'm upset that there's a ruling made
because of a typo. This is not you know, this is not getting your license renewed. This is
not getting some permit to have a fire in your backyard. This is not some building inspection.
Right. This is somebody's life on the line. And on top of that, you have a murdered
victim and their justice for them is on the line. And you [ __ ] up on every [ __ ] corner.
It's it's appalling. This is How is this a justice system at all? You can't even get the guy's birthday right.
And so, and the the malicious lying, like uh well, we think he's a flight flight risk because
there's numerous uh of these cases going on where uh somebody that's Muslim is helped by the Muslim community to to
um basically abandon ship and they uh ship them over to uh Pakistan. Mhm. You have prosecutors that their job is
not to say [ __ ] The their job is to to argue with truth. And if that was true that we had
hundreds and hundreds of Muslims that had relationship issues that were killing their exes or their spouses or
whatever and they weren't going on trial because their community surrounded them and
protected them and and fled them out of the country. If we had hundreds of these
cases then then you're arguing the truth and yes, I don't care if he's 17 or not he
doesn't get bail because he might bail the country. But that's not true. It happened once.
And it but it's it's the fact that the cops maliciously would tell stories. The cops
would maliciously tell lies. The and the prosecutors would do so. It's like how are you how are you
supposed to fight a fair fight when they're they're not fighting fair? I mean it's absolutely appalling.
Well, and I think it's a little unfair too. I I get that they're you know, bring up
the his his family's background. I get it. But it it seems slightly unfair that they're you know, they do point out hey
he No, this guy Adnan he's an American citizen. You know, it's not like he was born in
another country and moved here. Yeah, we have a guy that does not have a rap sheet. He doesn't have a criminal
record. Right. We have a kid mind you a kid. I'd even say if he's 18 yes, he's a
technically adult. Yes, he can vote. Um he he can buy cigarettes. Can't buy booze, right?
Mhm. He's just not a adult even at 18. But at 17 definitely not an adult. Right.
You can try him as adult and I understand that that's how the system works and you can do that.
But this no no criminal past and on top of that we have tons of people coming forward as a
character witness to say this is a good guy. And not just the Muslim community. We're
talking about students he went to school with. Right. That could have been prejudiced against
him for his religion because he was pretty religious. Right? At least wore that on his sleeve
enough. Wore it on his sleeve enough where you could be prejudiced against him if that's what kind of person you
were. Mhm. And you have several classmates coming forward and he's a part of this honor program.
Elite academics. Right. You know, this the sports, you know, every time they talk about this former
football player, I'm like, "God, I would have loved to play against Adnan in high
school. I would have smashed him." This is not some super athletic looking dude. You know what I mean?
That's what cracks me up every time they they Have you noticed that? They keep mentioning that like
former former football athlete. I mean, that's the picture they have. That's the news clip they or the sound
clip they have. but but it's like uh that's a lot different than hearing like former honor student.
You know what I mean? Mhm. Little different. But it's But every time they say former
football star and they show his picture and he has these little tiny uh chicken arms. Like, "What
What position did he play?" Um But yeah, it's just so frustrating when you see that
and yes the system gives you the the right to defend yourself and to find these inaccuracies. And what hap-
what has happened is in this case is I think they found a pathway to victory and a pathway to uh indict somebody on
these crimes and to get this off their board and they went with Jay and they fabricated the truth and they went after
it. And I think they just thought it would be swept under the rug. They got the win. He goes to He goes
He's sentenced to life plus 30. And we got him. Case closed. We didn't have to look into anybody
else. We didn't have to look into any other options. And that's it. But but there's also a chance
that they believed that they were convicting the right guy. You know, there's there's also that
chance as well. And the the guy said it best the guy that actually worked the one
detective that worked the missing person case actually worked Hae Min Lee's case
and then got on board when they were going after Jay to get a confession. He said, you
know, he's not an informant, he's a witness. Mhm. And that's what you have in a murder
case and it's like No. When you are changing the narrative and he's following along, that's
informative. That's not a witness. A witness tells you what they saw, their truth.
And that's it. But you are taking this data from these cell phone pings and changing this
person's story. So the cell phone technology itself would have altered the case and again,
they show you he's awarded a new trial. So basically, he goes from convicted killer to now he's just in jail and he's
not convicted of the crime. But what we do know now is that they claim that he's not going to get a new
trial and his conviction is going to stand. Which I don't understand. I mean, you
see that at the end where the lawyer says well, now we got to fight to keep this
ruling upheld. Uh the fact that it's overturned is it's sickening. Because you know, you don't have to be a smart
man or woman to sit down and look at these cell phone records, listen to that story and see how that's changed and to
go, they fabricated the story. And on top of that, we have all these other calls that they're claiming Jay
was certain places or Adnan was certain places and this is what convicts a 17-year-old and that information was not
accurate. The the fact you know, you can't 100% for certain say that Adnan and Jay were in Leakin Park that night
based off the call log anymore. Right. You can't. Because the information is in front of
you. Like you could assume, I mean that's kind of what me and Morgan talked about was
okay, maybe it's not reliable. That doesn't mean that it's not accurate. It doesn't mean that they weren't there.
It doesn't mean that they weren't in the park at that time. It just means that you can't point to this piece of
information and say that proves that they were there. Yeah, so uh, okay. The the other thing though, just to
play, you know, both sides of the of the courtroom here. Well, I'm going to go to the other side
too in a second. Okay. The other thing though too and I and I don't and it does appear that the
way that they got Jay's story to change to what they wanted, appears to me that they are trying to make their story fit
or his story fit the evidence that they believe they have. But to argue the other side of that, you
know, Jay would not be will not be the first nor the last person to be suspected of
either murder or assisting in some form or fashion of a murder to lie to police the first time they talk or the second
time or the third time or the fourth time. Um Yeah. I Again, I'm not I'm not coming to
anyone I don't want to I don't want to sound like I'm coming to anyone's defense there, but I do think that
that's something that should be thought of um or or at least taken into to factor at some point.
Yes. Factor that in. We we know Jay's a liar. Okay, we know that. We know he's not a good dude.
We know that. Well, right. When it comes to telling the truth, No, but but but what I what I'm saying
is that's that's fine. And I I understand that the idea that the first confession might not be the full truth.
That you might get more truth as the story comes out. Okay. I think you got that when he's basically like, "Yeah, I
didn't help him." And then it turns into, "I helped bury the body." I think that's where you get
Mhm. But what you don't get is a cop writing down that Jay or Adnan's phone would
have been in this location at the time and they wrote it down wrong. And so the one of their one of his
confessions, he says, "Well, then where you at at this time when this call comes
in?" He goes, "Well, I must have been so and so place, right?" And they're like, "Yeah, that's right."
Because that's what the call log says. Mhm. But because they wrote it down wrong,
now we got to go back and make him change it. Mhm. And we've been Make sure we got it right down
correctly. And that's my disappointment. It's like I end up the cops didn't look more into
the idea that that certain calls aren't reliable. So, if they're not reliable, we let's just not assume anything.
Because when you're talking about reasonable doubt, if something the the idea We have these calls that
put Jay and Adnan in Leakin Park, right? Mhm. But we know from the service provider
that those cell phone pings aren't reliable. Right. So, as a jury what you would be instructed to is if if
there's a point of evidence that could point to guilty or innocence, it is your job to have that lean on the side of
innocence. Right? Mhm. That is your job. That's the whole innocent until proven guilty.
That's the reasonable doubt. So, you can't then go into the jury room and go But it's also being presented to the
jury in a form that this is science. This is What we're showing you today is science.
Right. So, whether that cover letter is wrong or it wasn't shared with people, it
should have been argued by the defense and and on top of that, the expert should have said
that's that's not reliable. We can't go off that. Mhm. And that was never presented to the
jury. Mhm. So, again, then you get a guy again, guilty or innocent you have a guy that
they made up stories and now he has a serving a life plus 30. So, I said I want to go on the other side
for a second. And so in short, it turns out the expert it was not an expert. Right. And he he then signs an affidavit
saying I would be never there. didn't have an understanding of how that science air quotes
worked. Right. Because all he was looking at is that all the incoming calls and outgoing
calls, they're all reliable. And then you read the data. So, that's what he did.
Mhm. But then once you just throw in that wrench that hey uh these calls aren't reliable.
Um incoming calls aren't reliable. Then then you have to throw out any incoming call. And And so, what they did was um I
can't remember the girl's name. Uh it's not Jen. But, the girl's house that they claim
that they were at and then they show her, "Well, you were in school, you know, on Wednesday nights."
And so, it couldn't happen on that day because the class you know, the girl even said, "I could
have skipped class. I could have you know, not paid attention." Right. And what they were showing to her was a
was a class that was only like you could take some of these college classes where it's only like six
classes. But, they're 3 hours each class or whatever. Mhm. And it's a way to like kind of
fast-track a class. Right. was one of those types of classes, so it would have been a class like you miss
once, you fail the class. Yes. Yeah. It's going to be very difficult because you've missed a large portion of the
curriculum. Right. So, they were saying, "Look, that that these events that you're
remembering couldn't have happened at these times." But again, what were they trying to line
up? The cops. Incoming calls. Mhm. They're saying, "Well, we know that you were here and that you we know that Jay
was there and we know Adnan was high as a [ __ ] at your house and they got some incoming calls." And then and
then the cops saying, "Yeah, I remember talking to Adnan." And then he got all nervous and and and this girl saying,
"Adnan was high and he was all nervous because he had to talk to the cops." Right.
Now, again, did that happen on the 13th when Hae went missing? Doesn't look like it did because she
would have been at school. But, again, they're trying to line up these incoming calls that might not be
reliable. So, if they're not reliable, that doesn't even put her put them in the
area, but because it was in her area, they had to get an eyewitness that said, "Yeah, we hung I hung out with them."
Right. So, so I think she doesn't even know. And I feel really bad for these people that
get involved because first of all, it's weeks of her going missing, and then it's trying to backtrack.
Mhm. And I think that's really confusing for a lot of people, like in this case. Not
people looking on the outside of the case, but people actually on the inside. Cuz let let me just play a little
devil's advocate, right? I'll just go into the Adnan's guilty camp for a second.
Well, before you get to that, I mean, that's what Sarah Koenig did so well. I believe it
was the very first episode of Serial where she's pointing out how difficult it is for
most people to remember certain events within the last week, 10 days, 3 weeks, 6 weeks.
And I love how people are like, "Well, Adnan doesn't remember everything, so therefore he's guilty."
Well, right. Their right. Their their belief, if you go under that thought, it's he's conveniently not remembering
because he has something to hide. Right. Yeah. And so, so the Asia situation. Mhm.
And they were talking again, we have another prosecutor that lies saying that that
she recanted her statements and said that she was forced to make these statements from
Adnan's family. What was her response to that? She was like, "That's bullshit." And she
actually wrote another affidavit saying Saying the same thing she stated originally. That I saw I believe I saw
him that day in the library after school. Right. And again, the thing that becomes strange is when
the cops go, "Well, we think that she was killed during this time period." I don't think she was killed during that
time period, personally. I don't think it was like such a small window. But that's a that's the time that the
cops came up with. So, well, now you have this girl saying, "Well, I saw you in the library." Well, if if she saw him
at the library about 2:15 to 2:30, there's your alibi. She He's not killing her at 2:36 in the Best Buy parking lot.
Or or making the come get me phone call at 2:36. Right. Right. Right. So, if the the key to their story
and the key to Adnan's alibi really revolves around that call to come get me at 2:36. So, if he could if there was a
way or if Adnan could prove that he was not in the parking lot of Best Buy calling
Jay at 2:36 or not in that area, not in the parking lot of Best Buy for 15 20 minutes before that, then he has to be
innocent according to the detectives' narrative, the prosecution's narrative that she was killed and he was picked up
around that time. Here's one thing I've always wondered about the and I know that that it's tough to lay out the
timeline of the movements of Adnan that day cuz he doesn't recall. He And it The
thing is, too, when we say don't recall, some of it may be as simple as it was a pretty regular day for this guy
and it's kind of meshing and jelling and getting all mashed up with other regular
days. Yeah. And the thing that I've wondered, though, is there a way Do we know for certain again, forgive
me, I haven't listened to Serial in years. I mean, I listened to it when it first came out. And
Oh, What do we know regarding Hae Min Lee's timeline? Is there a Is there any chance
that she could have left school earlier than what everyone is saying? Well, that
Because if she did, that throws in a whole That throws a big wrench into the whole timeline.
I think that's a possibility. Because under that Under that scenario, Jay could have killed her.
When he's out riding around in at Was it Jay's car or his or Adnan's car? Adnan's car.
So, Adnan's car with Adnan's phone. Yeah. He could have And so, the motive for Jay people think
that there was rumors that Jay was cheating on his girlfriend Stephanie and that Hae
actually knew. And that Hae Min Lee was actually going to tell Stephanie. threatened to to out him.
Right, and that would be his motive to kill her. I don't know how much I believe that.
Um cuz I think this is a strangulation. This is personal. I think you know, to to me, it comes down to
Adnan. He was the ex-boyfriend. We see that all the time. The current boyfriend, Don, or like I
like to call Donnie. Well, And then we have Jay. These are because he is confessing to the crime
and a possible motive. So, those are the three that we kind of know of through the story.
But is there some random? Very possible. It's very possible. So, I thought with episode three, and
it's not that I read this anywhere or anything like that. This is really just my own speculation going into it. And I
did too what you and Morgan were talking about about there being a a bombshell or
something really big, significant uh that they would present to us. I did read an article as well, maybe two
articles that said something similar that that that is going to occur in episode four.
Right. So, that was was confusing because a lot of people that the stuff that I was kind of blown away by, a lot
of people were saying that was on undisclosed the podcast which I just never um Well, the thing that
time to get into. The thing that gets tricky about that is the articles that I remember reading
about it, they're discussing this big batch of interesting information that's going to come out in episode
four, but all those articles came out and I well I read them, you know, a day or two before watching
episode three. So, you know, you if if if you're not paying attention to the number, you kind of just assume ooh,
that's going to be on the next one. Right. Um but regarding what you were getting
into there a little bit is I kind of anticipated that we were going to get more into the Don stuff on episode
three, but that didn't happen, right? Like Did I miss something? Am I hard of watching?
Yeah, they they didn't talk about Don at all and I don't even remember his name being
mentioned in episode three. Right, he's been you know, not brought up at a lot he hasn't been brought up a lot, but
that makes me wonder with these private investigators looking into the case with
these other lawyers looking into the case, is there something that they know Or is that what we're going to get in
episode four? Possibly. It's possibly what we'll get in four or did they check out this alibi
that never made sense and and did they find out that it's truthful and then they have to back off of this idea? I
mean, because the to me it's about finding the truth. So, you take Asia's claim and again, here's a high school
student. She claims that she knows she stayed at her boyfriend's house that night because there was a snowstorm and
they didn't have school the next couple days. That's the that's the big wrench in this whole thing is that the girl
goes missing and then they have snow storms. Mhm. So, there is a gap before they even get
back to school to start going she's missing. Her friend's talking about her missing.
Mhm. That's the That's really like if that doesn't happen, we we're going to know some [ __ ] We'd
know way more [ __ ] because people would be going, "You know she's missing? Oh,
she's not at school today? What the flying fuck?" You know what I mean? Well, then people are going to start talking
and then people are going to start hearing stories and we'd get way more out of the people. But, because
there was multiple snow storms and then the power's going out and all this shit's happening and they're missing
school and so you keep having these lapses of time and I think because of those lapses of
time of friends not seeing each other, it disrupts the conversation of where could she be and if something bad
happened to her, who could have done this? Right. So, it's like this perfect storm.
So, but like I said, let me play a little devil's advocate here. Let's say that Asia
I mean, how do we know she's telling the truth? Well, let me let me say this real quick.
Okay. Sorry. Um but you know, we we have said this on the show several times. I've said it in
regards to eyewitness statements and accounts of past events that the one thing that I do like about
Asia's story is there are some very specific points to her story. It's not just "Oh, I think I saw Adnan after
school somewhere." No, it's "I saw him in the library and it would have been between this time and this time and when
I saw him, we spoke about his relationship with Hae and how it was over and he just wants her to be happy
and I I know that I didn't get picked up until this time because I was angry at my boyfriend because he was late. And
then the next day we had a snow day. Right. You know, it's it's all it's very it's
very detailed. It's a very detailed account. Right, but this wasn't written a couple
days after Hae went missing. No, I know. This is after Adnan is arrested. Right, and that's why I think some
people don't believe it. Right. So, let's just go on the side that he's guilty. Okay, so I can dismiss
that, right? Oh, he is. I knew he did it. Well, I'm just saying I can I can argue
that away. Okay. She's misremembering. Right, or or making it up. Right. And now not Jen, but the other
friend, I can't remember her name. But the one that they went to the house that night and they talked.
Well, she's misremembering, too. Right? We have evidence of that. Mhm. Now, that would go in my favor of him
being guilty, right? But Or at least not having an alibi. No, no, I'm talking about
the the the the call that they get from the police officers where they're over at some girl's house that Jay knows,
that Adnan doesn't know, and he's super high. Right. What I'm saying is their defense last night in in episode 3
kind of proved that that probably didn't happen. Mhm. So, that doesn't go good for my he's
guilty case. Right? Now, Jay what what did they prove last night? Jay lies. But on top of that, that the cops lied
and created a narrative. They proved that last night. Mhm. That doesn't go good if I believe
Adnan's guilty, right? Right. But the thing that happens at the end of the episode is what I find very
interesting. Okay. And I believe somebody was arguing with me on Twitter and they were saying Rabia
is one of the executive producers. That might be true. I I don't know for sure. I I didn't look at the ending
credits. But they give you all this information at the end, right? They give you all
this information through the whole episode. The cops did this wrong. They lied about this. Jay lied about that. Uh
they didn't get any time served. Jay was appointed attorney pro bono, you know, probably from the DA.
Like all this like [ __ ] shady stuff, right? It starts making it look like Adnan's
innocent. Right. Like they're like we have all these people building a case against
Adnan because there wasn't already one to be one to pursue. Right. And then we have this situation
where Jay says that Jen picked him up on the 13th from his house. Jen says no, on the 13th I picked him up
at a different location. location. She says like on a street corner somewhere, right?
No, it was like in a mall. At a mall, okay. So, because right after and here's what's interesting, right
after she gets he gets in the car is when he says Adnan killed Hae Min Hae Min Lee.
And then they go to some dumpster around the corner. And she's like that happened on the
13th. Mhm. So, that's that's her story. So, we got a change in Jay's story. We have the police altering all this
stuff, right? Right. But we have this girl, which is high as a [ __ ] kite, on the
documentary. I think there's I think she's on something at least. I I will say this though, Jen seems
genuine to me. Like Right. Right. Right. Okay. So, but here's the big point. just a gut feeling.
She says, "Look, I mean, you got Yes, did the cops lie? Sure. Did the Are the cell phone pings wrong? Did we not Did
Jay and Adnan not go to this girl's house that night?" Who knows, right? She even says, "I
don't know what to believe anymore." Right. But then she reiterates that on the 13th
of January, she picks up Jay and he gets in the car and says, "Adnan killed Hae Min Lee."
Mhm. Now, his story changes later that he helped bury the body. He didn't tell the her that that night,
but that's what she claims. So, after all this stuff and all this smoke that's thrown at you,
basically, the last impression you get is, well, if Jen is telling the truth, then none of that other stuff matters.
Because why would Jay on December or Why would Jay on January 13th, the day Hae Min Lee goes missing, why
would he tell Jen that Adnan killed her? There's only two reasons. There's only two reasons, right? Either
Adnan did it as he's saying or Jay did it. Right. Or I guess or they did it together,
um which is is somewhat what the the story is, anyway. Right. But, so that that that's pretty
freaking damning though, don't you think? Like, if you if if I'm Robbie on I'm a the executive producer, that's not
the last taste in your mouth I want to leave on episode 3. Mhm. That well, none of that [ __ ] really
matters because if Jen is telling the truth, that And that's what her statements were to
the cops. Right. Was, "Hey, January 13th." Right. No No matter how much the police
got Jay to change his story to go along with what they wanted his story to fit the evidence.
Right. Regardless of that taking place weeks later. Yeah. If If Jen is being fully honest, if Jen
is telling us 100% the truth that that night on the 13th, Jay jumped in her car and says, Adnan
killed Hae Min Lee. Or Adnan killed Hae. Right. Then Then there's very few possibilities
that are left. Right. And that to me is like I've always really I've always really
thought that portion of her story super super important, obviously as you just pointed out. And then the other thing
too is is the the car. Hae Min Lee's vehicle. If If you believe Jay, If you believe
believe Jay, if you believe that he provided the information regarding the location of her vehicle to the police,
then again, that leads you to only three outcomes. Either Adnan killed, Jay killed, or they both did it.
Right. And And that's why it was so important for the police to say to Jay, "Well, we
need you to tell us where her car is." Probably for multiple reasons. One, he's told you multiple stories. Regardless if
he's Regardless what's going on that we can't see because you didn't videotape it, you
know, going on behind the scenes, let's say, as you get to his final story. Regardless of that,
they're probably saying, "Well, we need you to give us something that we don't already know." And if so, one, that
could be where the vehicle is. And two, you can't lead us to her body, so the next best thing would be to lead us to
her vehicle. Right, cuz you can't you can't lead her to the body because the body was found.
And you'll see that a lot of times in these criminal cases, and we've talked about it on many cases that we've
covered. usually when they get a confession, right away they want the killer to lead them to the body. Because
if for some reason under any technicality at all, they can get that confession removed from the final trial,
then the police can come back and the prosecution can come back and go, "Yeah, well we had to throw out your confession
because of this, this, and the other thing, but later that day or first thing the next
morning, you let us to the victim's body. So, how do you explain explain that? Right.
So, me and Morgan are sitting in in the garage thinking, "Well, yeah, okay, you throw all this
stuff at us and it's a bunch of piled dog [ __ ] and that doesn't seem like the justice system is
fair, but what we do about this Jen thing, right? Cuz like you said, if if she's telling
the truth, then there's not too many options. Right. And Adnan's involved in two of the
three. But then that started making me think, "There's been discrepancies all along on
when the police first talked to Jay." Yeah. Now they claim that, you know, the first
time they talked to him is when he confessed. Really? Is that how it went down? Is this private investigator that did
all this stuff and knew that you made contact with Jay before this? Weeks before this? Weeks
before he confesses to the crime? And you're going to tell me that you talked to Jay,
uh you find the body, that you didn't find the car? I mean, we know Jay's a liar, but we also know
that the cops are lying and that the DA is lying to just try to win. They're not trying to get to the truth,
they're just trying to win, right? That's what we We know that. We have evidence of that.
So, I can dismiss now, I can say well, Jay is saying that he told the cops where the car was.
And if you can just speculate that the Well, we think that the cops told Jay where the car was.
And it was part of the fabrication. Again, reasonable doubt, you have to go towards innocence.
And that kind of dismisses that theory. But, we still are left with Jen's conversation.
And I'm not saying that Jen is a liar, right? But, we have so many people misremembering
days that we don't know if we don't know if she has the date correct on January 13th.
I mean, that's what she says, Mhm. but how do we not know that she hung out with Jay
after he had a couple talks with police officers before any interview was reported?
And there wasn't some conversation. You know what I'm saying? Cuz everything that she said on the stand, like she
would even tell you, "It's all hearsay because this all was told to me by somebody else."
The only thing that is not hearsay is that she says that she picked up Jay sometime that Jay and Adnan were hanging
out. From from the 13th to whatever it was, the 28th, um that whole time period, how many times
did Jen pick Jay up with Adnan around or at Jay's house. And why doesn't Jay's story line up with Jen's?
She says pick him up up at a mall and Adnan was there. Jay says, "Nah, nah, she picked me up at my house."
Right? And those are not Jay's not changing his story there cuz he has to. That's just what he's claiming. So maybe
he's misremembering. But what I'm saying is we have a lot of people misremembering and the fact that their
stories don't line up makes me believe that Jen is not 100% sure that when she picked up Jay the night
that she picked up Jay and Jay said that Adnan killed Hae. That might not have been the 13th of
January. And if it wasn't then to me when did Jay start fabricating this story? Does that make any sense?
Well, yeah. I mean, the the key here is unless if Jen is correct, all right, let's go back to that. If she's correct
in what she's saying that she picked him up that night from a mall as you January 13th, yeah.
January 13th, picked him up from a mall and he at some point once he's in her car says that
Adnan killed Hae. Yep. If that is correct then now we have to go to well, why would Jay want to alter
that story, alter the truth? Why does Jay want everyone to believe that she picked him up from his house and not
from the mall? Right. And the only thing I can go to is would be this. Is there a if Jay were involved more so
than what he has said or if he committed the crime by himself. Is there a chance that Jay was scared
that that somehow some way they could trace Hae's car, Hae's vehicle to that that shopping mall
Right. where Jen pick says that she picked him up. Right. And if if you could do that, then that
might point to a completely different killer. And so you have to question if if you
believe that Jen's telling us the truth, then why does Jay want to alter that portion of the story that seems to be
kind of pointless on the outside looking in. Right. It's not so obvious that that it's just
this one little detail that he can change and tweak, but he might be the only one that knows the the strength and
the power of of that that actual detail. Right, but if you have this guy's cell phone and you go
he lent his car out to his friend Jay, which is 19, and he's a dummy, and uh we busted him on marijuana, but hey,
you're friends with the ex-boyfriend and a suspect in this girl's case. And if they talked to
him and they kind of laid out on the table like they did with all these other eyewitnesses that really were really
informative, right? These girls that they threatened if they didn't press charges or they
didn't testify that they'd go to jail for whatever. Did the cops then talk to him? And then
did he get picked up from Jen, and that's when he said Oh my god, Adnan killed Hae.
See what I'm saying? No, yeah, yeah, I get it. Cuz cuz then it's not he's telling the
truth. He knows that the cops are going to make him say this. So, now he says it
to a friend. And I just question whether or not Jen knows it was actually January 13th or not. Because like like I
said, the whole documentary just to But sum this up real quickly. Necessarily though, she doesn't have to
know for certain that it was the night of the 13th. It could just be as simple as knowing that it was before Jay ever
spoke to the police. Right. Cuz he didn't speak with the police the 13th, the 14th, the 15th, right? I mean,
there was some delay in that. Right. We we don't really know when he I mean, we have what the
We we have different people saying different things regarding the first time he spoke to police.
Right, but it was like in February. February what? 26th or something when they Yeah.
first like I thought I saw one that said maybe February 22nd. Something like that.
Right. Right, but what I'm saying is so, we're talking about a whole month difference.
But again, you have a girl going missing for 3 weeks with all this time elapsing
because what I'm saying is there's more time elapsing because of the snow days. And when you add in snow days
and the power outages and stuff like that, you start losing communication of certain days. So, it's almost like feels
a little longer. So, I just um so, to me, it was a lot of these bombshells of wow, this is not the
justice system. Wow, they got these people to lie. Um I don't think maybe they didn't even
you know, get the star witness, you know, or the technical witness to lie. He just was
misinformed, but they lied to Jay to fit their narrative. Jay then had to lie on tape, then he had to lie on the
stand. And this is just then you get a guy, again, like I said, how the how is somebody else involved in
this crime, Jay being involved in the crime, and not getting charged with anything?
But you have Adnan being charged with life plus 30. But anyways, but that was the trade-off.
That happens all the time. Yeah, no, I yeah, I understand that. But but to me the whole episode was like
moving forward. It was like maybe not bombshells, but like Jesus Christ. I mean, it really was
made me realize how shifty the cops could be, especially with these uh confessions and the fact that they
had a change the the confessions later. I mean, that's just so shifty. And then like I said, all of a sudden,
after all the smoke clears, Jen is like, "Hey, does not change what happened when Jay got in my car
January 13th." Mhm. And I remember thinking, "Damn." That's the last thing I remember. Like,
to me it was like if again, if that's true, "Damn." But then like I said, couple minutes
later I thought, "What if she's just wrong on the time?" So, I'm I'm but people keep trying to bait me
into arguments on Twitter and Instagram. But uh that hasn't worked yet, but I think that's because
I was never 100% sold that he was innocent or 100% sold that he was guilty. I just really open to the idea of the
discussion and this case because of shows like Serial, because there was a bunch of documentaries, because there
was a show called like um Serial Dynasty, because there was uh another show called Undisclosed and they
dove into every point this case so many people know so much information about it.
So, to me it was always an interesting case to talk to true crime fans or true crime nerds
because there were so many details and you can kind of go through every little piece.
But, I was never sold either way. You know, at moments I'd lean more one way and then other moments lean lean another
way. And you would think by the third part that I'd have a little bit more clarity.
But, and I was getting there. It was like, you know, we're getting to the end of
the episode three and I'm going I'm getting some clarity. I'm going to I'm going to be on one side of the fence and
my fist is going to be up and I'm going to be um doing everything I can to champion that
idea. And then, like I said, this little this little slip, you know. Well, you know,
is Jen correct or not? So, I I feel like I'm more confused than ever. You know what I mean?
But, I definitely I think when you hear me getting upset, it's I know that there was injustice done.
I don't know if he's guilty or not. Right? I don't know 100% if he's guilty or not, but because of the fabrication
of the stories, because of the the tampering with the data and not the correct data
and the not not the correct defense, he deserves a fair trial. You know, and that's hard to say, especially if
you don't know if somebody's 100% innocent or or not. Because obviously if the person is
guilty guilty deserve a fair trial. Yeah, but you know what I mean? Like you're never going to be like, well, we
know this Well, you're now We know this SOB did it. Let's give him a fair trial.
Yeah, but the problem here is we're saying we're talking about somebody that's already in prison. That's that's the the
problem with it. It's Okay, when you say even the guilty deserve a fair trial, that's 100% true. What's not true is
even the guilty deserve another trial. Yeah, it's so frustrating. I just I don't know.
Like I said, I I think part of it is just that I feel like we're better than this.
Or we should be better than this and I know that Don't lump me into this. Leave me out of this.
I know that Well, what I mean by that is just the system in general. I mean, I know
Well, this is not supposed to be how the system works out. This is This is This is individuals if this goes down
the way that they they are presenting it to have likely have gone down. If this goes down did go down the
way that it seems like it may have gone down, this is individuals manipulating the system. This is individuals that are
just they're doing what they want to do. You know, it's You can't If you sit across the table from somebody and
you're playing Monopoly with seven people and one of them cheats, you can't blame it on Monopoly. You blame it on
the on the individual that decided to steal a bunch of the fake money out of the box when you weren't looking.
Right. Yeah. Good point. All right. The system's not The system's not perfect, but it's intended
to be fair. And unfortunately, there are those that take advantage of of the system.
Yeah. Well said. So, well, we got to get out of here cuz we got to head to the airport to pick up
a two special guest. So, we'll see you guys next week. Yeah, we we'll determine how special
these guests are after their visit. Yeah, they they're special special smelly guests. And remember,
ban the van.

The Case Against Adnan Syed: Part 3 Off The Record: Episode 48 Nic and the Captain discuss the HBO documentary The Case Against Adnan Syed: Part 3 www.truecrimegarage.com

Brief Summary

Hosts discuss episode 3 of <i>The Case Against Adnan Syed</i>, focusing on cell phone evidence and police misconduct.

Key points

March Madness vs. Macho Madness. A light-hearted debate ensues about which madness reigns supreme during March.
Episode 3 Impact. Listeners are warned that episode 3 will change their perspective on the case forever.
Police Misconduct. Discussion on the detectives' questionable methods and their impact on the case.
The Flawed Testimony. Jay's unreliable testimony raises questions about the integrity of the case.
Justice System Failures. Mistakes in the justice system lead to serious consequences for Adnan.
Cell Phone Evidence Discrepancies. The reliability of cell phone evidence is called into question, impacting the case.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I poured a little whiskey in my coffee this morning.

2:39WatchNov 18, 2024

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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