Shaker Heights - Episode 4: Chinese Whispers | Forensic Files

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[Music] [Music] % welcome to Shaker Heights episode 4 Chinese Whispers 16-year-old Lisa puit was
stabbed to death behind a mansion in Shaker Heights Ohio on September 14th 1990 her murder remains
unsolved this is the story of how the police detectives in a small town were led to believe the weird kid in school
did it based on nothing but testimony from a group of teens who were friends with
Lisa's boyfriend Dan dford what you will hear are actors reading from actual police interviews
conducted during the course of their investigation no words have been changed and the interviews remain in
chronological order so that you can see how the case against Kevin young was constructed
[Music] this is detective Richard melany at the Shaker Heights Police Department
interviewing one Christopher in Jones Mr Jones can you continue your statement Dan was pretty angry about being a
suspect or the way they portrayed that pretty much from there many people came and left Dan's house that night
eventually me and Dan Messinger got a ride from Scott Fiero to the pu's house we talked to Mr puit we went up into
their house and spend a little time in Lisa's room then me and Dan Messinger were going to walk home we got a ride
about halfway to Dan's house from Randy Stokes we got back to danford's house and I spent the night there we then went
down to Dan's basement and talked there for a while Debbie dford came down and we discussed the possibility that Kevin
young might have done it it started from shanee and John who had heard about a month before that Kevin young wanted to
kill both Dan and Lisa because he had been with Lisa for 2 years and Dan had stolen her or taken her away from him
after a while we went back up to Dan's room we just talked until pretty late and went to bed then the next morning
Saturday September 15th 1990 Dan had to go to the police station and I got a ride home for Mrs dford to the best of
your knowledge who knew knew that Lisa was planning to come to Dan's house on Thursday night Dan dord myself Tex and
Kim Cole may have because she was over at Lisa's house that night so they may have talked about it how long have you
known Dan dford I've been friends with him since winter of 1989 could you briefly describe Dan
dford he's had a rough family life because of that he's been kind of extroverted in a sense he's pretty much
always joking around he's truly social if he feels something different he'll always put on show of being in a good
mood talking and stuff under that he's afraid to trust people he's intelligent and he has a sense of what he should do
Lisa was one of the only persons he really trusted he hasn't had that many people that he can trust he loved her
very much how long have you been friends with Lisa puit pretty much the same as Dan I had done some stuff with her
before but I became good friends with her that winter of 1989 how long have you known Tex I don't
really know him that well just pretty much know of him and probably no more than 6 or seven months could you briefly
describe Tex from what I know he's not really concerned with school more rebellious he's not really violent but
he's got a lot of anger at things seems like a really nice guy as a person how long have you known Kevin
young I know him through Dan dord and probably about 6 or seven months also could you briefly describe Kevin young
extremely touchy very powerful a sense of that a physical sense of strength very angry he likes to joke around about
things but you never really know if he's serious or not he's always on edge like
wired I really don't know him that well have you ever observed dramatic changes in Kevin Young's personality I haven't
but I've heard about these changes taking place he always seems like he's sort of about to burst out or go over
the edge or something he makes you feel uncomfortable to be around can you describe Kevin Young's relationship with
girls he takes things too seriously about them if they'll do anything like being nice to him or something he'll
take that as a fact that they like him more than they actually do with the girls he's around he's very
possessive about them he misc contrs and takes too personally what their actions
towards him are Annie Conrad and I were at a party she was one of the girls I felt he was in
love with because he knew her from band I was kind of going out with her at the time whenever she would come over
and talk to me or come and sit by me he would give me this really dark glances he was trying to get drunk and he was
acting really angry and hurt kind of he basically simmered down after I talked to him a little bit and he said to him
that she didn't want to be around a guy who gets violent when he drinks he just made me feel really uncomfortable
basically can you think of any other example of Kevin Young's Behavior with girls he asked Becca bwright to prom but
I can't really remember if she refused I believe she refused he began to hate her
for that and verbally disparaged her and he made a lot of rude comments about her
seemed angry he then asked Ellen Donald who was a freshman and he was a senior she told him that her parents wouldn't
let her go he seemed angry at her too about this but that's all I heard to the best of your knowledge have any of your
friends abused robotos and cough syrup yes several I tried it once and Andy Conrad Becca Boatright and Dan dford and
Tex and Debbie dford also could you describe what effects using robotussin had on you I took it along with alcohol
nobody else really did that I became extremely nauseous I couldn't see straight really I had distorted perception of
what things really seemed like it became extremely talkative kind of dizzy giddy
feeling but really nauseous that's the only time I ever tried it how does a young man with no ties to
the crime scene become the main suspect in a murder investigation it happens one flimsy
story at a time remember that game we used to play in school Chinese Whispers we called it the telephone game a rumor
starts and it's passed like a virus through words from one person to another until it changes into something new and
altogether dangerous listen for it in this interview with Jennifer Margolis a 16-year-old high school student who is
about to point the finger at Kevin young simply because she heard his name at the
right time when I first found out that Dan dford had come back I was in a youth ending hunger meeting after school Judy
Miller came into the room to tell me that Dan was back she was very excited once I realized who she was talking
about I was also very excited shortly after she came in Kim Rathbone came to the meeting and she was
very excited and emotional which is how Kim gets there was an element of surp surpris because we expected him to be in
there longer because he said he had fulfilled his requirements to be able to leave the program at the
clinic basically we were all surprised and excited that he was back I talked to Lisa puet that night it was before her
flute lesson she was rambling on about how wonderful her life was and how wonderful
that day was she was excited like the rest of us about Dan being back and especially because he was special to her
she had been down at about band camp and the beginning of the school year because
she couldn't do anything for him and she missed him a lot and she kept saying that the only thing bad about the day
was that she could not see him as much as she liked she saw him momentarily after
school and I asked her if she could go over later that evening and she said she had to go over to her flute lesson and
her mom was making a special dinner in honor of her getting her driver's license she said her father and she
might stop at Dan house after her flute lesson and her father only wanted to stop and say hi so they could get home
for her celebration when we were talking about what a good day it had been she was listing the things that had made it
that day primarily Dan being back and she got her driver's license I told her not to forget that I had given her a
necklace that day that she had ordered from my grandmother's jewelry store when we were discussing her going to dance
house after her flute lesson I mentioned can't you see him later that night because sometimes they met then because
with his family situation the way it was they didn't get a chance to see each other often she said yeah I was planning
on it I think then we just talked for a few more minutes about everything was great and then we both had to go that
was the last time I spoke with Lisa so I think that about wraps it up about my impressions of the day that Dan came
back I also needed to talk to you guys about Kevin young I found out that Kevin was a suspect or I heard the rumor that
he was a suspect on Saturday night right after Lisa was killed it was Judy who told me that because she heard it from
Becca Boatright that was at Dan's house on Saturday night the minute Judy told me I
got really upset for some reason it had never occurred to me before that he could be a suspect because I was running
through a list of people in my mind that I thought might be capable of doing something like this or knew she might
have been going over there and although I thought of everyone I had ever seen at
araba Kevin never came into my head but the minute Judy told me I believed it I mean not so much in my head but in some
non-thinking way I believed it because he was the only person that had ever entered my mind that I felt was capable
of doing something like that that really shook me up so I started thinking about
why I was so convinced that it was was he and the more I thought about it I remembered about three or four
conversations I had with him plus the general knowledge that he was pretty Disturbed Rachel lenthal and Ted folkman
and Aaron Miller and I had gone to see you Hunt for Red October at the colony theater I know it was a bridge night for
my parents afterwards we went to araba and Kevin was there and Eric and Anthony Garvin their brothers Kevin started
talking about gays and was making offensive comments and I always felt bad for him but I was never able to tolerate
it when he talked like that so Aon and I got up and went downstairs and when we came back
upstairs they were talking about Kevin's favorite topic of discussion which was how all women hated him and how he hated
all women and why he even tried to have relationships this was how he had talked
in the past but there was a specific time that I was reminded of as I listened to him talk that night which
was another night when I was up at Arab and he was telling me and I think Rachel
and I don't remember who about a girl he had liked in middle school I mean one of
those Arch typical perfect people whose parents were going out of town and she was inviting Kevin over to her house he
got the impression that there would be something of interest to him going on or just interest that she wanted to spend
time with him he said when he got there he was already a little bit drunk and she and her boyfriend and I think that
some friends of hers were also there I'm not sure about that had laughed at him and kicked him out they made him leave
he was upset about it and he went from this one situation to condemning all women he referred to women as [ __ ] and
[ __ ] and [ __ ] that was the way he talked I remember feeling bad for him that he would feel that way I think
except for that incident that's pretty much it that's what I was thinking the night we saw Hunt for Red October and
when I was listening to him I remember he was talking about Dan and Lisa specifically he was saying that he could
never get any women himself and I'm sure they were derogatory usually he said I hate [ __ ] I hate [ __ ] a lot of kids
talk that way it's an insecurity thing he was complaining how guys like Dan could get [ __ ] like like Lisa to suck
on [ __ ] and how Kevin didn't have anyone and raving on about how unfair it was the conversation changed to more
normal topics the next thing I remember that scared me was that same night but later on when we were sitting out on the
lawn in front of araba and Rachel and myself and this guy Chris who worked at Captain Tony's and Kevin and I think one
or two fight guys people who hang around school and don't attend classes and Kevin was talking about how he didn't
ever seem to have any successes with women at all he said to Rachel and I that if we ever got the chance he was
sure we would reject him and our friends would reject him he said that if he would go out with a girl he would call
her a week later and she would put him off and ignore him basically he said how he
didn't like to be ignored and said I won't let let people ignore me Rachel said how can you change how people feel
if they don't want to see you there isn't much you can do about it and he repeated that he wouldn't be ignored and
that people can make Impressions on people and it has been done and then Chris who is a serious pragmatist said
well a good impression or a bad impression Kevin said whatever works it was kind of chilling at the time and
worse when I remembered it in this context in the context of what happened Kristen
asked Kevin well are you talking like Hitler or something and Kevin said well it made an impression didn't it there
was a silence and we changed the subject I think the most recent time I talked to him was when Dan was at the
clinic and Rachel and Charlie Martin and I had stopped at araba and Kevin was there with Ken
mitsumoto the two of them came and sat down next to us and were talking about Dan Ken said to Rachel I haven't seen
you all summer Where Have You Been she had been to Interlocken and she was kidding and said
I was in rehab he believed her and she said she was kidding and then we talked about Dan and then Ken said well isn't
Dan in rehab neither Kevin nor Charlie said much about the situation of Dan being at the clinic then Rachel and I
set them straight where Dan was and why they talked about some ridiculous rumors
they heard and Ken talked about when he was in rehab then Kevin said well I'm sorry he's there meaning
Dan Kevin said I have some unfinished business to take care of I remember thinking that sounded ridiculous I think
I laughed at the time then he said with him and the [ __ ] and it was either the
[ __ ] or [ __ ] or [ __ ] in reference to Lisa Kevin continued and said I was going to [ __ ] with him real good but now
he's not around or something along those lines when Kevin said that I looked at Rachel and she looked at me and I said
you don't need to talk about our friends like that and he apologized and said sorry and continue to talk about Dan
when Kevin said what I said before then Rachel said it was nice to know your friends support you when you're in
trouble and she was trying to Guilt Trip him into shutting up as far as I remember that was all I wanted to talk
to you guys about when you refer to Lisa going over to Dan's house late late that
night did she usually go to Dan's house or did he come over to her house I know she had gone over there at least once
before because she talked to me about it but I think more often he went to her house late at night when I talked to Dan
last night he said whenever she came over I waited for her and it gave me the impression that she had gone over there
more than once have you ever known Lisa to use any drugs or alcohol drugs no when we were in Germany she got a little
bit tipsy and we all laughed about that because it was so uncharacteristic of her other than that no is there anything
else that you wish to add to your statement No the date is now September 22nd 1990
it is 1 week after Lisa's murder Kevin young the weird kid in school is the primary suspect they have consulted
with the FBI already about how to get Kevin to confess to the crime and only now do police detectives sit down for a
formal interview with Kim Rathbone the 16-year-old girl who lives behind Dan dford house she has been holding on to
some very important Clues though her memory is already a bit foggy are you a student yes where at
Shaker Heights High School what grade are you in 11th are you aware this statement is being recorded yeah and is
this being recorded with your permission yeah is your father aware that we are recording the statement at this time
yeah Kim could you basically explain how you know Lisa puit and also how you know
Dan dford and go back and give me a little bit of background information on how you know these people I met Lisa
once in fifth grade in the band and we both played the flute together and I didn't uh that's how I knew her in fifth
and sixth grade 7th grade I went to middle school with her and we were all part of the same group all kids that
hung around together in middle school and in high school but I grew closer to her from eighth grade on as friends like
closer friends I know I Know Dan dford in sixth grade he lives right behind me so we've always been people who if you
can't find anything else to do you just go over to their house so I knew him better than I knew Lisa he's one of my
very best friends and um oh I went out with him in sixth grade which is nothing it was like for a month or something and
we walked to school together and stuff like that is that all you want to know okay what contact did you have with
either Lisa puit or Dan dford on the date of Thursday September 13th 1990 to the best of your knowledge okay well
first I'll tell you about Dan first cuz he's not that was the first day that he came
back from the hospital and Lisa and I were sitting down together I was helping her with chemistry which is funny
because she's the smart one and um we were sitting down and he came around the corner like he'd been there the entire
time so um I saw him then got hugs and everything cuz I hadn't seen him for a while except for like on weekends when
we had to pass home and uh then after school I went over and I was cutting his hair cuz that was my special treat for
seeing him at home because he never let anybody cut his hair I got to do that and then my boyfriend asked to go to
Danny's house so he came and picked me up and said hi to Dan and then we left not till I saw Dan we were just talking
and uh uh Lisa I saw at school I had lunch with her and band with her and maybe now and then in the Halls when
everybody else saw her oh and shakerite with her that was 10th period and that's
when we we had both finished our articles so that's why we were seen in the Halls on our way home we were
anxious to get home and um then I saw her briefly after school and then I went home and then I went home and I saw
Danny and cut his hair that's all I'd seen except I had heard heard her scream that night not knowing that it was her
but I didn't know that she was coming over either there screams all the time around Lee Road in South Woodland and I
was doing my history and I I had put it off and when I heard the scream woke up and looked and walked through the house
and it happened toward the back of the house my little brother leaves his window open and our rooms are connected
we're through a bathroom and the bathroom doors were opened and his window was open and I hear her scream
and I went off and I looked in my window to see if there were any bicycles or cars or anything and there wasn't
anybody I thought it was weird but I still didn't do anything about it and I found out Friday at like 7:00 7 in the
morning yeah and we didn't even know it was Lisa it was like tapes and dogs and everything and we didn't even know it
was Lisa and stuff so my parents were all in front of the house my grandmother lives with us and my brother sleeps like
a bump on a log and he didn't notice anything and I guess my grandmother's windows were shut I don't know why she
didn't hear do you remember about what time that was you heard those screams around like 12:30 just a little
bit after 12:30 I was hoping that it wasn't her but but just from I heard from other people and everything putting
everything together it seems to be so I'm not even absolutely sure that it was her but it just seems like the normal
way how do you know about what time it was were you aware then what time it was or did you just kind of hear what time
it happened later and then no no I glanced at the clock when I heard it I don't know why because I was just like
working really hard and it was distracting me out of my work so I just glanced to see what time it was so you
were awake at the time yeah I I was up doing your homework studying my history do you remember what the clock exactly
what the clock said mm in other words between 12:30 and 12:45 because I went to bed at 1: but it hadn't it was then
so that I understand you correctly your bedroom faces segwick yes on what side of the house towards facing the house
towards South Woodland say if you're facing your house is your bedroom towards South Woodland or towards Shaker
Boulevard towards South Woodland my parents are towards Shaker Boulevard the last time you saw Lisa Pro it was on
Thursday at school is that correct and did you see her anytime after that mm- did you hear or mention or did she tell
you what her plans were for the evening no I didn't even know that she had been over at Dan's house before she had left
the house for the night I didn't even know that she had been over there for then I think I must have I I don't even
remember what I was doing that night ate dinner with my family that's about all I
remember sometimes you can hear from Dan's backyard you can all the time hear if our screen doors are open you can
hear what goes on in the houses themselves so I guess I just really wasn't concentrating on what was going
on over there describe for me as best you can what the scream sounded like like a scream like somebody was scared I
was just it didn't exactly sound like a play scream like when you hear people are driving by and stuff and that's why
I got alarmed and I looked and stuff but it still didn't actually occur to me that it might be somebody really getting
hurt cuz I don't know why it was somebody being scared did it sound like a male or female oh a
female definitely yeah did you hear was it a long scream or just like series of short
screams was it like continuous um it was uh it didn't last for hours you know it
it was a long one and then there was a long one and I don't know how you define which are short and which
is long but long did you hear the person that was screaming yell out any words or
any names or was it just a scream just a scream I didn't hear anything else what
time did you go over to the dford house on that day uh um it had to be after 4: because um you last until then it
wouldn't have been much after uh oh I remember why my friend came over we were studying for the history test in the
afternoon also I just switched from a higher to a lower class and she was making me take the test anyway uh it
must have been like 4:15 or 4:30 p.m. so about half an hour or 45 minutes or something so you went over there between
4:15 and 4:30 p.m. and you were over there for about 45 minutes yeah I guess so who else was
at dford at that time outside with us no one just you and Dan um yeah me and Dan
and babbit after my boyfriend had come he came over and said hi that's Brian keing yeah Brian keing did you see
anybody else at the dford house um I'm trying to remember whether his mom was home or not I don't really remember
whether anybody was home did you go in the house at all no we stayed out in his backyard in that porch area yeah and you
cut his hair then right yeah in general did you and Dan talk about that day oh well he had just gotten back he was
telling me about the people that he had seen and just for some reason I remember
Brian coming over and saying well how do you like Freedom now I guess oh oh I had
sent him a care package it was just MOS and stuff when he had ENT entered the hospital I gave it to his sister and his
mom to bring but I wanted some of it back because it was the only things that I had about him and he had stuff about
me so I still needed those things so he returned them back to me uh he gave me a
little stamp just as a joke then like a big surprise was cutting his hair and we
were talking about how short he wanted his hair and whether he wanted me to put it in a point in the back or not just
the way he wanted it and said that he trusted me and I could just do whatever I wanted to he had complete faith in me
and uh I guess that's just about it did he talk about his plans for the afternoon or evening no did he mention
anybody was coming over that night to visit him no if I had the chance then I was supposed to call him again but I had
to study for the history and then eat dinner and then I had other work to do so I didn't end up calling him so you
never talked to him the rest of the evening after that no okay and did you talk to Lisa puit at
all the rest of the evening either in person or on the phone [Music] no this show is sponsored by better help
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[Music] that I'm going to ask you about some people that are friends or of maybe you friends
of Lisa that are friends of Dan or maybe all mutual friends and tell me what you
know about them do you know a fella named Ken Workman uh-uh they call him Tex oh yeah sorry about that how do you
know him he's Debbie's boyfriend Debbie who dford he's Dan's sister's boyfriend and I went to see Dan with him and her
and Andy once when he was in the hospital Andy who Conrad she's a girl and Becca Boatright and uh he was really
nice he didn't look like the kind of guy that would be really nice to somebody just being the first time that I had met
him and I just liked him a lot he was a really nice person and he seemed to care
about Debbie a lot did you see him that evening Tex yeah no I had just seen Dan do you know Chris Jones yes okay how do
you know him from school yeah I can't even remember how long I've known him probably just since 9th grade but this
year I have more classes with him and stuff I have study haul with him and lunch and English he's really nice he's
a sweetie he has these odd necklaces that he wears and always lets me wear it if I like it he's friends with um oh I
forgot to tell you Tex I think had met Lisa a couple times but he didn't really know know her and then Chris knew Dan
real well and he knew Lisa real well too how about Dan mesinger I've known him since either seventh or ninth grade
oh and uh in nth grade I hung around with him a lot and that kind of drifted off I guess he knew Lisa real well and
he knew Dan real well and him and Dan used to go over to Dan's house and they'd mess around with the camera and
stuff like that these odd pictures that they would take he was real good friends
with both of them he was really upset do you know anyone that might want to hurt
either Dan drier or Lisa puit that you are aware of that would actually do it or that I think might do it that might
you know saying somebody would actually do something is you don't know we we don't know yeah I have a hard time
believing that anybody's capable of it but my guess is Kevin young Kevin young well he used to threaten him all the
time he used to say weird stuff like what he said he wanted to well he was in a mental or psych wart or something when
he was a sophomore and he said that he wanted generally he said he wanted to get back at the rest of the world for
putting him through what he had been put through and he was going to do something
to make everybody remember him and he said that he was going to get Lisa he said that how come Dan could get any
good girl he wants getting something girl that he wants to and to suck his dick but he can't get any
stuff like that he's scary but you never think that anybody's actually going to do something even though they talk have
you ever heard of any of these threats from Kevin young directly or do you just hear about them to me not to you but did
he ever make threats against Dan or Lisa in your presence um he well I sat next to him in
biology because he couldn't finish it his sophomore year when he was was in the institution whatever it's called he
must have said something like that every now and then not really often but do you
remember any instance that he actually made threats in your presence I don't remember a day it was in biology he did
that one but you heard it and you were present do you remember what it was exactly or as close to it exact as you
can remember he was saying like well it was nearing senior project do you know what that is no explain it that's in the
high school when seniors uh I think it must be in May or something when seniors don't have to take their last set of
finals because they do like a project or working project or something okay I know
what you mean and they don't have to take the set of finals and he was just um it was nearing then because he was
only in their second semester with me and he said he was just so happy to be out of there and he just wanted to hurry
up and get out and he was going to make everybody remember him that's the one when he was angry at the world for
putting him through this but what I was talking about specifically did he threaten Dan dford or Lisa puit directly
in your presence no just the world just the world and this was in his senior year yeah that he was going to make
everyone remember him what did that mean to you in your mind well it was kind of
freaky to have something like that said to you but I guess I'm kind of weird because I just put those kinds of things
out of my mind just Kevin's weird I'll stay away from him and that's it and I won't have to worry then Brian keing sat
next to him in band all the time in like concert band and he said that he used to
hear Kevin talking all the time but he never thought anything of it and that he'd actually act on it did you go on
any of these band trips like to Germany like to Germany yeah was Kevin young there
yeah did anything happen on that trip out of the ordinary significant uh that's when Dan and Lisa
were really kind of started like going out I guess was there any difficulty on the trip with any member of the band did
anyone get in trouble you mean with any relation to this or did anybody get in trouble in general no not anybody
anybody that's connected with this group of friends that we have discussed um no
I don't think so I remember this one girl but she's in the band and so she had some kind of relation to Lisa but I
don't really know her did you see Kevin young at all the day of Thursday September 13th 1990 I haven't seen him
for a long time I haven't seen him since school I guess now I'm going to ask you
a question and the answer I don't care about who's involved in what but did you ever hear anything about any kind of
parties at dford involving robotussin drinking robotussin to get high do you mean did I ever hear of a party that we
did that or did I ever hear about them doing that period did you ever hear about them doing that period yeah
okay what do you know about that I know it doesn't show up on your drug test it always comes up negative and you can
just tell them that you had a bad cold uh you want me to tell you who did it or how they did it or yes both
yes I don't really know how they did it I could never figure it out really I guess they drank a lot of it maybe they
like the taste were you ever present when anybody ever did this uh-uh I just I saw the bottles but I was never
present when they ever did it okay so how did you know just just by seeing the bottles that somebody didn't just have a
bad cold oh no no Dan had told me about it what did he tell you about it he told
me that he got high off of those because that way he wouldn't ever really be using any real drugs and he could still
feel good I guess and that was just uh I can't remember who the people he said he' done it with they were I remember
when I was there Jamie Greenfield was there with me in the same room and I think Steve somebody I don't remember do
you know who they are no they're friends of Dan's I don't think they ever met Lisa what are their names Jamie
Greenfield and Steve something they go to my youth group and that's how they know Dan it's through the Unitarian
youth group I just remember it was in his dining room that they like took off the bottoms and he showed them to me and
I was just like what are those Dan showed you those yeah Dan pulled them out of like a paper bag full I mean not
all the way up to the rim there was like seven bottles or something did he ever tell you what he felt like when he took
Robitussin he said the first time that he did it I'm trying to remember the words he used what he used to describe
being high did he mention other than being high any kind of unusual reaction or effect that it had on him well I
remember him talking about his friend was just totally like out of it talking about like going into a forest or
something like there are trees right there hallucinating or something do you remember who the friend was he talk to
no you have to talk to Dan about that he knows that but I don't ever remember him
talking about I mean he never hallucinated like that I don't think he ever did it to the point where he was
like that why are you asking me about the robot Us in anyway it's just something that's come up in other
statements and conversations so we have to clarify that well Dan doesn't drink anymore because he was Ill
with robotussin I don't even know how he heard of it I don't know how he did it either that's why I ask if you might
have known anything about it all right I'm going to turn the tape over to the other side now to your knowledge would
Dan dford have invited Kevin young over to his house for any reason lately yeah lately I don't think so cuz he and uh am
I allowed to swear on this sure he had called Kevin an [ __ ] which he is I mean he's a jerk really so
uh I remember him talking before like at the end of 10th grade who talked to him
before Dan he just said that uh that's when Bill DeMarco was there and the three of us were sitting down and he
said that you know you don't know who that is either Bill dearco no he's home this weekend from
Bowling Green he just graduated last year here and I said damn I heard you'd been hanging out with Kevin why and he
said that he had done one or two things with Kevin and decided that he was kind of a jerk and just Kevin kept hanging
around Kevin was kind of being pushy but Dan didn't want him around I remember that I hadn't even thought about Kevin
since back in the 10th grade when was the last time you saw Kevin young that you can recall that I think I recall
ever talking to him or just saw him last time you saw him in the 10th grade you haven't seen him since then uh-uh I
didn't know if he went to college early or I didn't really care so that would have been in the
spring or early summer of 1990 this year right yes what do you know of Kevin Young's
feelings towards Lisa puit if he had any feelings towards her um you mean out of
his mouth I don't really know but recalling from other people's mouths and just every everything that I've heard
you mean since Lisa's death or before then and before but mostly since Lisa's death um that uh it seemed like he might
have been jealous of Lisa spending time with Dan not like him being jealous of Dan because he has Lisa it seemed like
it was the other way around just from what I've heard it sounded kind of weird okay so this is what you've heard from
other people yeah who has been talking to you about it Jennifer margal I've seen her around lately Lisa and me and
her had diet jokes going on which was we had a Scana sisters and I had just gotten grounded a lot in nth grade
that's when it started and we just thought about a lot of weird names Jennifer was fatana Lisa was Chana and I
was aono and we were the Turk ofana sisters what sisters turana it's just a name we made up and
we had had I guess we had taped a whole bunch of commercials and put them all together and it was something like Oh
Henry bars and Sprite and something and then it was just like a simple thing uh just to make us laugh cuz we had sat
next to each other like in a Rowan band and uh once I was grounded they brought me a package of the pop and the 10 of
those Oh Henry bar thingies and gave them to me in a care package to make me feel better because I was grounded have
you ever heard or do you know of Lisa puit sneaking out of her house and going to Dan's house prior to the
incident or Dan sneaking out of his house and going to Lisa's have you ever heard of that have I heard it from them
yes from Dan or Lisa no have you heard of it from anyone else before the incident yeah but it wasn't even a big
deal it should have been but it wasn't what did you hear that Dan used to go all the time like to Lisa's house I
don't think that I had ever heard of Lisa going to Dan's house but he used to go to her house and they'd sit down in
his basement and bring his guitar and they'd play and sing songs but that's all I heard I just kind of disregarded
it you never heard of Lisa coming to his house no and he never talked about it to
you not really well he was gone for a month I had been working I had driver's at in the morning on weekdays and I
worked in the afternoon so there wasn't really a lot of time for me to see him in the beginning of Summer and then I
had called him to see if he wanted to go out to a movie with me or something and
that's when I found out he was in the institution so then every chance I got I talked to Debbie and his mom to see how
he was doing things like that what were you aware of if anything or did Dan mention anything to you about the
relationship between Mr and Mrs dford and Dan how did they get along well Dan and his father have always had this
thing going I mean it's a lot it's a lot less worse now I mean I haven't H because I told you when the screen doors
are open you can hear everything you could hear Dan's father screaming at him for whatever reason just clean your room
and shave and why don't you help me with this and stuff like that I always heard
stories about what had happened when they were younger like what like what well they're kind of far-fetched I never
knew whether to believe them or not um but I had heard that his father had gone violent with Dan and Deborah and I think
his mom I'm not sure and that's why Dan's started lifting weights in like the sixth grade um he wanted to stand up
to his father and uh I had heard it once and this sounds really far-fetched but I
remember it and I don't remember whether I heard it from Debbie or Dan but when Dan was little he had to use the
bathroom and his father said no hold it as long as you could and then he couldn't hold it any longer so he ended
up wetting his pants and his father got mad because he wet his pants and like pushed his head into the toilet or
something it sounded very far-fetched and I had always known Mr drfort as long as I've known Dan and I've always known
him to yell but I had known him to use violence is there anything that you know or anything that you feel that could
perhaps help us in any way in this investigation you mean is there anything other that I could tell you some tip or
something anything that you've heard or anything that you might have thought about telling the police or thought
about calling us and letting us know something that you heard something that you feel that maybe no one else has
thought about like maybe a threat or maybe some reason that somebody would want to kill Lisa puit all I know is
what I've heard some of the rumors about who has texts and stuff like that and I
really don't believe that Dan or St or Tex either or any of the three of them are actually capable of they they
wouldn't have done it because first of all they wouldn't have done it to Dan Stan or t wouldn't have done it to Dan
Tex wouldn't have done that to Debbie and they had no reason in the world to hurt Lisa anyways they barely knew her I
really strongly don't believe that they did it that's just all that I've really thought about to tell you just who
didn't do it I don't know who did it who is Stan who are you talking about I heard that Stan was somebody Stan's just
a friend of mine no you know Stan yeah you know his last name no it's funny I've known him since the ninth grade but
I don't even know his last name but I can recognize him from a mile away can you describe him for me he is big Well
everybody's big to me but he's big and he has long hair probably down to his well well it's shorter than his
shoulders now he looks awkward he smokes I'm trying to remember whether he had an earring or not I don't think so
well maybe he does I don't know about that one don't no just just disregard that does he go to the high
school well he was kind of he did last year and then he ended up dropping out and then this year he was enrolled again
and he was caught smoking on school grounds and he was suspended then he was caught on school grounds when he was
suspended so now he's supposed to pay something or serve something in jail or I don't know I don't remember what the
outcome is but he's supposed to go to school the night that you heard the screams well it was actually the morning
of September 14th 1990 did you hear just before or just after that did you hear any other type of noise that might have
caught your attention no that's why I thought it was so freaky cuz I heard the scream and just looked and I couldn't
see anything else so I just said said oh it must have been somebody in their car
or something you didn't hear any kind of maybe a car pulling away or screeching tires or not even the police when they
came in in the middle of the night you went to bed about 1:00 a.m. mhm just about exactly when the police were all
around looking around you didn't get up at all I didn't hear it at all I was so tired from staying up so late
studying and the screams that you said you heard seem to be coming from behind your house yeah because my windows in my
room are closed and so was the uh I have two closets and the door to the hall two
windows and the door to the bathroom the only one that was open was the door to the bathroom so I figured it came from
any other direction it would have sounded more muffled did you know Lisa to keep any type of diary or anything
like that I knew that she always shared her thoughts with her friends I knew that she had little poems and stuff that
she liked that she would share not worth sharing it with some of them worth sharing it with certain people
though who else besides yourself would you consider to be her best friends I don't think I'm her best friend just
Jennifer was really close to her and Rachel lenthal was very close to her and Kim Cole grew close to her in the summer
Dan was really close to her and Judy Miller was close to her I guess I'm kind of on the outskirts of people that were
close to her who would you say would be Dan best friends Dan's best friends well
Lisa he was very special to me I don't know whether he would call me a best friend we spent a lot of time together
used to share a lot of hidden thoughts uh I don't know if he would actually call me one I would like to
think that I was one um he uh I I don't know who he would call his best friends now all of the people that I just named
were close to Dan also I know there was one guy guy that he met in the institution with him but I don't know if
he would call him his best friend do you know his name oh he was just talking um
I was just over at Dan's house yesterday and he was talking to him on the phone Mike Pagel maybe that's the closest I
can call him I think that's it his first name is Mike yeah I answered the phone I
said this is the dry Fort residence and he said is Dan there this is Mike so I'm
really not sure on the last name I know Bill Marco spends a lot of time with them before they left they used to call
each other over the summer do you know a kid named David brandan uh-huh he used to babysit for me he lives a couple
houses down he's really nice did you see him at all on Thursday no I didn't even
know he was home I just saw him last night at araba I was with my parents and I just said oh wait a minute that's
David and I went over and I said hi the last time I saw him was I I think I was right when school was ending thing and
uh he saw me in the hall and caught me and took me to araba and we were talking and he told me about this girl he met
and D do you know what the girl's name was Megan I think he's rooming with her now or he's going to be rooming with her
soon I don't think he's going back to school this year but he's working down at the in the flats at the araba he's
working at Raba yeah I I forgot where he's working in the flats though he told me but I can't remember is there
anything else you wish to add to your statement that would help you really I don't think
[Music] so and here we come to the moment the detectives make their move it happened
on September 26th 1990 12 Days After Lisa Pit's homicide six police officers from Shaker Heights drive down to Ohio
State University and an attempt to get Kevin young to confess to the crime they have been briefed by FBI agents on how
best to do this the profilers told them their best chance would be to surprise Kevin and talk to him at
night [Music] [Music] you can live out your Master Chef dreams when you find a professional on Angie to
tackle your dream kitchen remodel connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well
visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie that

Shaker Heights - Episode 4: Chinese Whispers

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

In the early morning hours of Friday, September 14, 1990, 16 year old Lisa Pruett was stabbed to death in Shaker Heights. This is a 6 part true crime series. The bulk of the story comes from actual police interviews. As the story unfolds, ask yourself, who do you think killed Lisa Pruett?Directed and produced by True Crime Garage. Co-produced by The Philosophy of Crime and narration written by James Renner

A BIG Thank You to all of our voice actors!Jordan Bonaparte - www.NightTimePodcast.com (http://www.nighttimepodcast.com/) Tyler Allen - www.MindsofMadnessPodcast.com (http://www.mindsofmadnesspodcast.com/) Jessica Bettencourt - True Crime Garage & Scene of the Crime Podcasts Mike Bussing - Executive Producer of Truth & Justice with Bob RuffBob Ruff - www.TruthandJusticePod.com (http://www.truthandjusticepod.com/) Tim Pilleri - www.CrawlSpace-Media.com (http://www.crawlspace-media.com/) Aaron H - www.GenWhyPod.com (http://www.genwhypod.com/) & www.FramedPod.com (http://www.framedpod.com/) Maggie Freleng - www.MaggieFreleng.com (http://www.maggiefreleng.com/) Bill Huffman - My Passion Case and Who killed Podcasts - www.SloBurnMedia.com (http://www.sloburnmedia.com/) Morgan - The Captain & Morgan Podcast Jessica Yuan - www.AsianMadnessPod.Podbean.com (http://www.asianmadnesspod.podbean.com/) Melissa Lee - Victimology PodcastScotty Boombox - www.ScottyBoombox.com (http://www.scottyboombox.com/) Jesse P Pollock - Author of “Death on the Devil’s Teeth” & “The Acid King”James Renner - www.PhilosophyOfCrime.com (http://www.philosophyofcrime.com/)

The full archive of True Crime Garage is available on the Stitcher listening app - for FREE. Our show “Off the Record” is only on Stitcher Premium. For a FREE month of listening go to http://stitcherpremium.com/truecrimegarage and use promo code GARAGE

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Brief Summary

The episode recounts the unsolved murder of Lisa Puit and the flawed investigation targeting Kevin Young based on rumors.

Key points

The Unsolved Murder of Lisa Puit. 16-year-old Lisa Puit was stabbed to death in 1990, and her murder remains unsolved.
Kevin Young: The Primary Suspect. Kevin Young, the weird kid in school, becomes the primary suspect in Lisa's murder.
The Scream. A chilling scream echoes through the night, leaving the narrator unsettled.
Kevin Young's Threats. A discussion reveals Kevin Young's unsettling threats and jealousy towards Lisa.
The Investigation Deepens. Detectives make their move to confront a suspect in Lisa Pit's homicide.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It happens one flimsy story at a time.

8:27WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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