Shaker Heights - Episode 3: The Crush | Forensic Files

when it comes to Quality sleep Ashley has you covered with top mattress brands at winning prices and with special
financing options available you can snooze now and pay later plus your mattress purchase helps give the gift of
better sleep to children in need and US Special Operations forces visit your local Ashley store or shop online today
and make every snooze count financing is subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for d details at Consumer
Cellular you get the same exact coverage as the largest carriers but for up to half the cost same thing up to half the
cost up to half the cost for the same thing 50% the money for 100% the same thing I hope I'm making myself clear
Consumer Cellular when Freedom calls we're here to answer call us at 1888 Freedom half the cost savings based on
cost of consumer cellular single line 5 GB data plan with unlimited talk and text compared to lowest cost single line
postpaid unlimited talk text and data plan offered by T-Mobile Verizon May [Music]
[Music] 2023 welcome to Shaker Heights episode three the crush 16-year-old Lisa puit was stabbed
21 Times by an unknown as salent on September 14th 1990 in Shaker Heights Ohio a well-to-do suburb on Cleveland's
East Side her body was found about 100 ft from her boyfriend's back door where he lived with his parents and sister
this boyfriend Dan dford had been released from a mental institution earlier that
day after the murder Dan friends gathered to discuss the murder in likely suspects we'll never know exactly what
was discussed at these private meetings of grief stricken children but we know that after those
meetings Dan friends went to Shaker Heights police detectives and said they believed that Kevin young had killed
Lisa puit out of jealousy over her relationship with Dan the police searched Kevin's house
and found no murder weapon or bloody clothes nothing at all to link him to the crime scene and he had an
alibi as the investigation continues an interview with 18-year-old Stanley Kramer licates danford's father and a
possible conspiracy of Silence by now Shaker Heights police detectives have interviewed the men and women who had
the means motive and opportunity to commit the crime and they've heard from a handful of teenagers at Shaker Heights
High School who regard Kevin young with hatred and suspicion the case takes a turn that
Monday just 3 days after leas murder that's when the police detectives decide it was Kevin young who committed the
crime what follows is a statement by a lead detective in the case which explains how FBI profilers helped
convinced them it was probably Kevin who committed the [Music] crime on Monday September 17th 1990 I was
contacted by special agent dick Ren of the Federal Bureau of Investigation relative to the Leisa pruit homicide
agent Ren advised me that he was the case agent for the Amy mahalic case and offered to assist us in any way he could
he further informed me that due to the circumstances surrounding the pruit case that he would need to inquire as to any
similarities between the mahalic and puit homicides I invited agent Ren to come to our station and review our
reports and other information that we had accured agent Ren advised that he would visit our station at approximately
1: p.m. that afternoon I was unable to meet with agent Ren when he arrived at the station due to the fact that I was
at the kyoga County prosecutor's office with Detective Sergeant Timothy Reid preparing a search warrant for the
resident of Kenneth teex Workman agent Ren and agent John Dunn met with other members of of the investigative Bureau
and reviewed reports and evidence from the pr homicide Upon returning from the County prosecutor's office detective
Sergeant Timothy Reid detective Robert shiping and detective David kives executed the search warrant at 2626
North Morland apartment number two the residence of Kenneth Workman C supplementary report by Sergeant Reed
there was nothing of evidentiary value located during the search later that afternoon while searching through
several plastic trash bags that were removed from the residence of Kevin young during a search of his residence
on Sunday morning September 16th 1990 investigators located several documents that contained writings and paraphrases
that indicated that Kevin young had some sort of Behavioral problem the writings
referred to Kevin's disdain for Jews Arabs and blacks he further remarked about his own problems with developing
relationships with females other writings revealed his inner feelings when he observed couples male and female
acting out their affection for one another further examination of the documents indicated an interest in
Satanism and neo-nazism specifically skin heads there were several documents that referred to suicide after all the
documents were examined I contacted agent Ren and advised him as to what we had found I asked him if he knew anyone
locally who could review the writings and offer us an opinion on what they meant agent Ren referred me to
supervisory special agent James Wright at the FBI Academy's Behavioral Science section in quanico Virginia I attempted
to make Con with agent Wright but was unable to do so due to the late hour on Wednesday September 18th 1990 I made
contact with agent Wright he asked me to fax him all available documents relative
to Kevin young he further related that he would review the documents that same evening I gathered all of the documents
37 Pages worth and had them fax to agent WR the transmission was completed at 12:34 p.m. on Thursday September 19th
1990 at 10:30 a.m. agent Wright contacted me by teleph telone and advised me that he had reviewed the
writings of Kevin Young and the details of the police report of the murder of Lisa puit he stated that it was his
opinion from the information that he had examined that the murder was definitely
a quote neighborhood thing unquote and that the person that we were looking for knew Lisa puit agent Wright then gave me
a personality profile on what he had learned concerning Kevin young he related that Kevin's personality profile
definitely fit that of a person capable of committing the crime in question he further remarked that we should look at
other sexual assaults that have been reported in the past agent Wright went on to state that Kevin young has no ego
low self-esteem he probably realizes that people don't like him he then offered some suggestions for any further
interviews with Kevin agent Wright suggested that Kevin young be interviewed at night the later the
better he described Kevin as a night person he further suggested that the interview should take place in a
non-threatening environment not in an interrogation room the interviewer must be able able to bond with Kevin provide
a friend unquote the interviewer should be matur looking articulate and intelligent he must not resemble Kevin's
father or have an authoritative personality agent Wright then proferred the following interview structure one
don't start off the interview by being threatening but do create some anxiety in the subject show him something from
the scene put it off to the side within his peripheral vision things from the scene might quote tweak him two
give the subject a face saving scenario two Kevin good and bad quote he lost control he's not really responsible end
qu refer to his writings If I Ever Lose Control of myself withdraw into an alternative world and let animal
instincts take over this is from an essay written by Kevin young dated January 9th
1990 three explain that the problem needs to be resolved four be careful not to be judgmental five don't be
confrontational and six you can expect a lot of denial for a long long time after
speaking with agent Wright I advised him that I was not sure that I had an interviewer with expertise in dealing
with the type of Personality that he describes I further advised him that depending on laboratory results the
success or failure of this investigation hinged on the interview with Kevin young
agent Wright offered to assist in any way he could other than personally conducting the interview I then asked if
he would assist in preparing the interviewer I told him that I would be willing to come to quano with the
selected interviewer if he could make his staff available to us for whatever period of time that he thought was
necessary agent Wright reiterated that he would help in any way possible on Friday September 21st 1990 at 2 p.m.
agent Ren agent Dunn members of the investigative bureau chief hugick and I met in the conference room we decided at
that meeting that Kevin young was our primary suspect and that we should make arrangements as soon as possible to meet
with agent wri at quanico agent Dunn offered his assistance and advised that he would be willing to accompany us to
quanico for the interview preparation session after the meeting I contacted agent Wright and advised him of the
results of our meeting agent Wright stated that he would be available to meet with us on Tuesday September 25th
1990 at 11:00 a.m. and that he would be at our disposal for as long as it took to structure our interview Chief Walter
aerick after Consulting with members of the investig ative Bureau assigned detective Sergeant Thomas Gray as the
primary interviewer and detective Thomas gansky as the backup interviewer he further approved travel and expenses for
the trip to quanico for sergeant Thomas Gray detective Richard meany special agent John Dunn and myself on Tuesday
September 25th 1990 we departed from Cleveland Hopkins airport at 8:35 a.m. via Continental Airlines flight number
268b and arrived at Washington National Airport at approxim 9:45 a.m. we leased a vehicle from the airport and arrived
at the FBI Academy in quanico at 11:00 a.m. as scheduled we then met in the behavioral sciences unit with
supervisory special agent James Wright and three members of his staff special agent Dave Gomez special agent Greg
Cooper and special agent Janna Monroe the session began with us providing a detailed description of the crime scene
all events leading up to the murder and all events succeeding the murder they viewed all photographs illustrations and
documents concerning the case each named suspect was described with the reason or
reasons why they were still suspected or eliminated as a suspect their initial response was to point out the Deep anger
that was demonstrated throughout this crime they felt this anger was demonstrated both in the type of stab
wounds and in the force used to break Lisa's rib the anger also showed in the high-risk scenario that surrounded
Lisa's death they also felt that based on the crime scene that the knife was a weapon of choice not a weapon of
opportunity agent right and his staff then shared with us a profile of Kevin young they described Kevin young as a
quote John hinley type personality he described hle is a person who fantasized about women from afar he further
explained that hinley often wrote letters describing romantic interludes with women that he had never been
acquainted with they felt that the papers from Kevin indicated that he had at one time had some type of homosexual
experience which would explain his quote homophobia they described Kevin as very
immature and childish and emotionally behind his peers they estimated that he had the emotional development of an 11
or 12-year-old and added that he probably had difficulty dealing with his peers but that he could function
socially with both younger children and adults they also felt that because he was emotionally behind his peers Kevin
was threatened by Dan drier through Lisa puit they felt his papers also indicated
he had no self-respect their profile on Kevin also LED them to believe that he had Justified his actions to himself
before he did it one of their biggest concerns was that now that he had killed it would be easier for him to kill again
they felt he had many traits of a serial killer we then focused on developing an
approach for the interviewer they suggested that the interview be conducted away from any police settings
preferably in a motel Suite they also suggested that the interview be conducted by one person and not recorded
in any way it would be easier for Kevin to trust one person and to trust that person if there was no recording of the
interview they explained how to get Kevin to record the quote truth unquote after the interview they also reminded
us of the importance of having a supply of pop and cigarettes and of being prepared to handle meals and sleeping
arrangements as the interview went on they told us up front that they felt Kevin would want to tell us what
happened and that it would probably take him a long time they also suggested that
the interview be done at night the later the better due to Kevin's nocturnal Tendencies the approach location and
wording would all have to be a soft approach they stressed the importance of having enough patience to let him sit
and talk to build his e and to discuss his interests they also focused on the issue that Kevin must feel that the
interviewer cares about him for the interview to be a success our approach was to be that the interviewer has the
ability to help Kevin to present the truth to the prosecutor and to be an outsider to the system that will help
him agent Wright suggested we could reinforce this with thoughts along the line ofe my boss thinks you're a killer
end quote we also wanted to express our concern for the urgency of the matter that resulted in our late afternoon trip
to Columbia the initial setup of the interview was all soft tones and all aimed at building
trust and confidence they felt that given Kevin's personality that he would have a difficult time talking to anyone
about what happened however they suggested that his intellectual approach to everything could be used to our
advantage they thought his personality would let him explain what had happened as a theoretical quote third person we
decided to address the interview first in the third person they felt that if he was involved Kevin's personality would
encourage him to discuss disc what happened in the third person it was felt that if Kevin had an opportunity to
justify and rationalize what was done then it would be easier for him to confess it would be critical at this
point to be non-judgmental about anything that Kevin said the next part of the interview would be indirect
questioning these would address our concerns in non-threatening ways these questions would be in the form of
putting him in the shoes of the person who did this to Lisa and asking him things like what would this person do
with the knife with bloody cloes or with bloody hands the next topic was a polygraph they discussed the importance
of good polygraph questions for someone like Kevin the questions would have to key into stress areas of the actual
interview they felt that someone like Kevin might pass a polygraph with standard questions suggested questions
were did you get blood on yourself and did you get in a fight the last part of the interview if needed would be the
confrontational part during this section we would present to Kevin an overwhelming amount of why we thought he
was involved Kevin would then be asked to help the interviewer explain the evidence presented we also discussed the
importance of doing the same type interview on the parents during the time that we were talking to Kevin agent
Wright and his staff then discussed interviewing techniques to help build and reduce stress in the interview this
included questions voice control and body positioning we also discussed items to have at hand the first were some
non-threatening pictures of the area where Lisa was killed they suggested no more than three or four and we discussed
how to use them in the interview as an aid for Kevin to visualize the scene the second item was a computer print out of
our information on Kevin in a binder with his name on it and with some tabs marking key thoughts this would be
useful during the confrontational portion and would add stress during the rest of the interview we then reviewed
what we had covered they stressed again that we had to show Kevin that we really
cared that our job was to find the truth and that we were neutral and were there
to present the truth to the justice system [Music] while detectives have decided to focus
on Kevin young as their prime suspect they have actually not yet finished with their witness
interviews on Tuesday they finally sit down with 16-year-old Dan messenger who provides important context for the final
hours of Lisa pu's life Dan messenger also gives us our first insight into one of those secret meetings of Dan's
friends which happened the morning after the murder when a handful of teenagers made the decision that it had to be
Kevin young the weird kid in school who committed the crime I met Lisa in the third grade at
lllo elementary school and since then I've been close friends pretty much ever since I met Daniel dford uh when he got
on the bus in seventh grade but I became close friends with him in German class in 9th grade I met Chris Jones in 10th
grade in science class and we we became very close I met Kevin young basically in 10th Grade and I'll just say that I
met Tex in the 10th grade a little while after we moved here on Thursday September 13th 1990 I knew that Dan was
coming home and I had talked to both Dan and Lisa about it and I knew if he wasn't coming home on the 13th he would
be coming home soon I was uh sitting after school in my German classroom when I heard someone say Dan and I looked up
and Dan and Lisa were together and Dan was waving at me I immediately went out of the room and I talked with both of
them and I was very excited Lisa said that she should uh go and try to get her driver's license and so she and Dan
would go and Dan would see her off and Dan said he would come back and see me in a few minutes in the German room I
went back to the German room and I left momentarily I went looking for Dan but I
didn't find him until I went outside and I saw Dan dford and Chris Jones on their
bikes Dan asked me why I wasn't in the German room because he had walked past it and I wasn't there I said because I
left right away we talked about trying to get together and we decided that I'd ride with Chris on his bike and Dan
would ride his bike over to my house we went over to my house and I got my bike and we rode our bike akes over to
Chris's apartment it was at Chris's apartment where we went inside and we talked a lot I was very excited we ate
some of Chris's snicker bars and Dan had some letters in his backpack that he had
received from Lisa that he had not yet read and was going to read them later Chris was getting dressed to go fencing
So at around 5:30 p.m. he left and went to go fencing Dan and I also left and decided that we would go to lesie R's
house when we got over there lesie gave Dan a big hug actually now that I think about it we saw Caris Smith walking down
the street Dan and her hugged first then we walked over to Lesley's house with our bikes and that's where lesie gave
Dan a hug at Lesley's house I began walking around a lot just being nervous for some reason and Dan sat and talked
to lesie Cara We also went outside and Dan and I and lesli's little brother threw around of football we left
Lesley's I went home and and Dan went home this was around 6:00 p.m. I believe I called my voice tell mailbox to see if
I had any messages and Lisa had called it was 5:23 p.m. that she had called she was very excited she said she had great
day and that she wanted me to call her back I was going to save the message but for some reason I deleted it then I
called Lisa back and she had told me how great of a day it was because Dan had gotten home and she had gotten her
driver's license she said she would be Dan Chris's and My Chauffeur but that we couldn't fool around too much because
she knew we would she said that she had to go to her flute lesson soon but she would call me later that night and then
we said goodbye the thing before that I forgot was that when Dan and I left from
lesie roach's house Dan said that he would give me a call later that night as well that's all I know definitely from
that night as far as I can remember [Music] the next day I was called around 5:00
a.m. I did not wake up but my parents received a call the call was from Linda mayor who is my German teacher and she
told me what had happened to Lisa I was woken between 5:00 a.m. and 5:30 a.m. and my parents told me what had happened
as far as they knew which was that Lisa had been murdered and that it happened at Lee in South Woodland between 6:00
a.m. and 6:30 a.m. I called Christopher Jones and I told him what had happened I
was afraid he wouldn't find out until later and because he was also a very good friend of Lisa's I felt that it was
important that he find out in an early time Chris told me that he didn't believe me and that I should stop joking
around he said that he would talk to me later that day in school and hung up the
phone about 20 minutes later Chris called me back and asked me is it really true Katherine Schultz had called him
also and told him what had happened when Chris called me back we decided that we
would go over to Katherine's house where Regina Raider Christian schang and Kim Cole were also there my father drove
us over and on the way over we listened to the news report on 1100 a.m. radio and this was at 7: a.m. it said that a
Shaker Heights girl had been murdered and that she was raped and bludgeon to death at Catherine's we all talked and
cried and when we got over there Kim Cole was talking to Kim wrath bone when she got off the phone she told us that
Kim wrath bone had told her that she had heard screams Brian and Adam keing Jeff
Michael Charlie Martin also went over to Catherine's that morning we all shared the information that we all knew at the
time around 8:30 a.m. I went to school with Jeff Michael Charlie Martin and Kristen at school a large group of
friends such as Judy Miller Jennifer margal Rachel lenthal Tanya Mani were all of Lisa's and Dan's close friends
basically gathered in the band room to share everything we knew about what had happened
Jeff steer kept trying to call Dan triford but never got through to him we were told he was at the police station
being questioned at second period around 9:00 a.m. I went to my math class with christien schlang who is also in the
class there revend Honan talked us all and tried to comfort us the next period we went to German class where a lot of
us who weren't even in German went this was basically Lisa's close friends again
a lot of people I've mentioned before here Linda mayor Reverend Honan another clergyman and they all talked to us and
tried to help us after this most of us went back to the bandroom again and we just talked about the great things that
Lisa had done in her life Midway through the period we all went back to Katherine's house when we got to
Katherine's Ted fulman Judy Miller Regina Raider Kristen schlang and myself went to pick up flowers for Lisa's
family we got back and a few people brought these flowers to Lisa's house at around 2 p.m. Ted fulman took me home
because he was also taking Jeff's steer home and I had planned to go with him and a few others to Temple that evening
once I got home I told my parents that I was going over to the murder scene and I
just wanted to see everything for myself I walked over and I saw the tape I asked a few policemen if anything had
been discovered that they could tell me about no one had anything to say at this
this time haly Warren and Jennifer Shook saw me and stopped their car and parked
their car and then they came over they said they had talked to my parents and my parents told them where I was at this
particular time I saw a man who had a channel 5 camera I walked over because I wanted to hear what they had to say I
asked the reporter if I could just hear his comments and that was it he said it was okay he also told me about the 300
p.m. press conference at City Hall I heard what he had to say and once he was done he asked me questions which I
didn't really answer he was more interested in about Dan and than Lisa at 300 p.m. we were at City Hall we sat
down in the second row but because we were behind the cameras I moved to the other side so I could see the chief
clearly I stayed for the entire time and when it was over I was ready to leave a
few people from the Press came over to talk to me but I had no comment except to say how great Dan and Lisa were both
as people and as a couple I also talked to the Chief and said that if he wanted to talk to me I'd be willing to talk I
also spoke to the woman in charge of the dealing with the media from the police I
think the public relations director she was at this time I did not feel that I was in the right state to talk about
anything that had happened so I got in Jennifer Shooks car with my with hiy and Jennifer and we were driving planning on
going to my house and I noticed that the tape had been taken off Lee and South Woodland I saw Deb dford pull out of
Dan's driveway and I asked if Dan was home she said yeah go on in we pulled into the driveway next to Dan's and I
ran up to see Dan at this time Judy Miller Rachel lenthal Christopher Jones and I were all at Dan's house I don't
remember if anyone else was there Dan and I talked and he told me that he would tell me what happened later when
other people were not around a few minutes later at around 4:30 p.m. most of Dan's other friends left I called my
parents and told them that when Ted fulman called to tell him that I wasn't going to Services I talked to Dan and he
told me what had happened that night and how he was involved Stanley Kramer was also there and Dan talked to Christopher
Jones alone a few times later on that evening a lot of Dan's other friends came over but before then Christopher
Jones Stanley Kramer Dan and I sat out on his back porch and talked about everything that had happened at this
time Christopher was called to speak to Sergeant gray Chris came back and Sergeant gray also talked to us he said
if we ever needed to talk to him or needed to say anything to anyone we could call him he also reiterated that
we should not speak to the media if asked at one point that night Jeff Michael Charlie Martin and myself were
told by Dan that he would show us where Lisa's body was found we went with Dan at around 8:00 p.m. and we went to the
sidewalk and Brett Caro was there and he was just walking and we all went with Dan and he showed us where he saw the
bicycle from the night before a police car came over and took down all of our names and asked us not to come by there
again because we could either get contaminated with evidence or we could mess up what was there that's basically
everything I can think [Music] of [Music] this show is sponsored by better help do
you look forward to the holidays maybe you struggle with seasonal Blues this time of year can be a lot and it's
natural to feel some sadness or even anxiety about it but adding something new and positive to your life can
counteract some of those feelings therapy can be a bright spot something to look forward to to make you feel
grounded and to give you the tools to manage everything going on if if you're thinking of starting therapy give better
help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient flexible and suited to
your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapist
at any time for no additional charge find your bright spot this season with betterhelp visit betterhelp.com
Garay to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp hp.com garage major phone carriers make you sign
contracts with rigid data plans to trap you into a kind of forced phogy sounds pretty insecure if you ask me at
Consumer Cellular we believe in a more consensual and healthy form of phogy free of contracts and more flexible to
your data needs this way you stick around not because we force you to with contracts and fees but because you love
our phone plans like ardently love our phone plans monogamously Consumer Cellular when Freedom calls we're here
to answer call us at 18 88 Freedom you can live out your Master Chef dreams when you find a professional
on Angie to tackle your dream kitchen remodel connect with skilled professionals to get all your home
projects done well visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie [Music] that [Music]
how much have you seen Dan dford and Lisa puit this summer I got home from Germany on July 22nd 1990 and at this
particular time Daniel was at the Unitarian convention he got home the following weekend and from that time on
we spent a lot of our time together that is until he went to the hospital I was with him the night before he went to the
hospital at 12:00 a.m. at this time Dan and I had planned for me to come back over at about 1 that night we had no
idea what was going to happen the next day with Dan going to the hospital I came back at 1:00 a.m. and I expect to
see Dan sitting outside waiting for me when I came up though the lights inside Dan's house were on which was a surprise
I went to the back and saw Dan's father yelling at Dan because he would not go to sleep I guess 15 minutes later his
father finally stopped yelling at Dan Dan came out and said everything was okay we went downstairs to his howling
Commando room and we talked until around 3:00 a.m. about a lot of things such as
Lisa and how much he loved her and how upset he was with his dad everything you would expect from two strange
teenagers I went home around 3:00 a.m. and the following day Dan was put into the hospital Dan and I corresponded
through letters and phone calls at the hospital I got Dan's pay phone number from Deb dford I called it a lot but it
wasn't until the following Monday that a kid answered and for some reason reason
thought I was Dan's father from this time onward without me saying it they thought I was his father I would call
just about every day one time Dan came home and I saw him actually more than one time another time I found out from
Dan that he would be going to the sever bowling lanes Lisa and I went to see him
and we asked for the Lane right next to it because it was supposed to be our lucky Lane here Lisa and Dan talked but
we weren't supposed to know each other so I had a lot of correspondence with Dan for Lisa I spent almost every day
with her we would talk a lot about Dan because we were mutual friends and she would come over or I would go over there
almost every day we sent him packages she jumped in our pool with her clothes on and we basically had a great time I
think I've said just about everything about the summer and Dan and Lisa could you describe what you know about the
late night meeting between Dan and Lisa and how you found out about the meeting yeah this was a normal thing for Dan and
Lisa to meet each other late at night when I was over at Chris's apartment on September 13th I realized that Dan and
Lisa would probably be meeting each other the next day after the murder I was talking to either Dan or Chris and
they told me one of them uh that Dan had told Chris that he was welcome to come also if I remember correctly Tex also
told Lisa would be coming over that night Chris did not go over that night and that's as far as I believe I know
about that Chris also said that he was very sad that I that he didn't go over that night because he hoped that he
could have done something to the attack her at least it would not have been murdered have you ever gone over to the
dford house late at night and if so how did you get into the house or get Dan's attention to let him know you were there
every time that I had gone over there Dan and I had planned on me coming uh the first time coming over there was
this past summer in 1990 Dam would always be waiting on the porch and when I came over we would either talk on the
porch or go inside and talk usually in the Commando room one other thing Dan mentioned to me about this night was
that he had not even remembered at the time that he was talking to his father that Lisa was coming over the only time
where Dan was not waiting for me was the time that I talked about when it was Dan's last evening before he went to the
hospital I know that in the past Dan and Kim Rathbone and some of his friends had
met in either Dan's backyard or Kim's backyard but I don't know how they signaled each other are you aware of the
incident where Kevin young stormed out of Arabica and if so could you describe what you know about the incident and
what you know about Kevin young sure at around 10:30 p.m. on September 13th 1990
Kevin young stormed out of araba that's basically what I've heard this is not unusual for Kevin Young Who
I consider a bit crazy and I say this because in the past he has had a lot of problems with women and in relationships
in fact I remember in my 1990 gear book Kevin saide I hope you have better luck with women than I do unquote Kevin and I
saw a few days after I had gotten home from Germany in araba he said that if I saw Dan to tell him how he hated him and
how he was mad at him he basically just told me how much of an idiot Dan was I heard either from Kevin young or someone
else that he had liked Lisa and that he hated both both Dan and Lisa and that he
had wished that he could kill both of them of course when you hear something like that being said usually do not take
it seriously because most people have said something like that especially Kevin young who has said that about many
people it would not be out of place to be totally surprised if Kevin did kill someone did it make you uneasy when
Kevin young said he wanted to kill Dan and Lisa I can say that many things Kevin has said has made me feel uneasy
but now that I think about it I remember this pretty vividly because he was talking about two of my best friends and
when Dan came home from his Unitarian convention why Kevin had said that right now I don't remember what Dan's response
was could you describe how Chris Young Kenny Workman Danny dford Stan Kramer Kevin young and yourself fit together as
friends Chris Dan and I are close friends Stan is not a close friend of Dan he's more someone we'd see up at a
Bea every once in a while Tex is Deb's boyfriend and because he was always at the dryer's residence Dan got to know
him better and talk to him more I had been out with Deb Dan and tex bowling and a few other times but as friends Tex
wasn't someone Dan usually hung out with unless his sister was around Kevin most
of all was not hardly even a friend of Dan or any of the rest of us he was more of a person that we saw at araba who we
didn't particularly like I had nothing against him I just thought he was a bit crazy did Dan dper invite you over to
his house on the evening of Thursday September 13th 1990 he did not invite me over on Thursday September 13th
1990 I think he may have said I could come over for a few minutes before he had dinner but I'm not sure about that
have you ever heard or have you ever attended a party at Dan dford where Robos was consumed by everybody there uh
actually yes I did not have any robotussin but one night Rebecca Boatright and Andy Conrad were at Dan's
house I called Dan up that night and he said I could stop by he told me he had some uh 4 ounces I believe and how Becca
and Andy had some at Becca's house when I got over there Becca and Andy both said how it wasn't really doing anything
for them Dan said it usually takes a half hour before you begin to trip Dan ran with them in the backyard in
circles and tried to get tried to get them to trip he went to a bench or something at the back of the yard and
would talk with them and try to trip with them or something he tried to do it with me even though I didn't have any
Robitussin I kept laughing and he said it obviously wasn't working if I was laughing their behavior seemed normal I
guess eventually they did trip but I was never able to tell they seemed normal to
me to Dan D for ever tell you any strange effects he got from consuming robotussin
yes uh he told me many times he wanted me to someday try it with him once but I told him I would never do it he said
that there were stages to the robotussin there was one main thing that he said it
did for you it just made you feel like everything was out there I'm not sure he used to say one specific thing but for
some reason I just can't remember it was not a big change in what you could think
he would say it was the added things you saw all I know is that he has had one bad trip I don't know how many times
he's done it but I know the first time he did it it was at the Susi convention he attended tell me what you know about
the relationship between Dan dord and Kim wrath bone well they've always been friends and just friends in fact
sometimes they didn't talk for a long time but they were still friends I'd ask him how he wouldn't talk to her and if
she just lived right behind him but he said he just didn't see her she was a friend of both Dan and his family I
remember during the summer Dan's parents and sister went to Toronto while Dan stayed with a friend named Jamie
Greenfield and Kim got the mail for them they've just been friends at times during Middle School seventh and eighth
grade they would meet late at night especially when Judy Miller was Kim's house and when Brian keading was at
Dan's house because at the time Dan was going out with Judy and Kim was going out with Brian they have been good
friends that is Kim and Dan how did you learn that Kim wrath bone had heard screams on the night that Lisa PR was
murdered well if I remember correctly uh Kim Cole was talking to Kim Rathbone when I got over to Katherine's house on
the morning of the 14th of September when she got off the phone she told us how Kim thought she could have done
something because she thought she had heard screams that night Kim Cole said that sounded like Kim Rathbone felt that
it was partly her fault I also talked to Brian keading who is still Kim wrath Bone's boyfriend and he told me how Kim
Rathbone had called him around 7 a.m. on the 14th and told him what happened to Lisa and called back right after they
had hung up and said that she thought she had also heard screaming that night of the 13th do you recall who mentioned
to you that text workman's Footprints may have been found near the murder scene I believe that was Dan dford to
your knowledge how did danford's Father feel about Dan's relationship with Lisa puit as far as I know he had no problem
with it I don't think Dan's father ever met Lisa I remember talking to Lisa about Dan's father and the way he
treated Dan and Lisa said that she had never met Dan's father when he's been like that and she might have said that
she never met Dan's father at all but I do know they met when Lisa went out with
Dan one weekend when Dan was home from the hospital how did you feel about Dan dord dating Lisa puit I remember the day
that I found out I believe it was April 4th 1990 and that was the day after they
decided to go together uh Lisa came in a German class and told me and I was so excited I remember I was was so happy
because Dan and Lisa are two of my closest friends and I felt so highly of both of them they broke up right before
I came home from Germany in fact I think it was the day I came home from Germany
and I saw Lisa right when I got off the plane because Regina was going to stay with them I asked how Dan was and she
said that they didn't want to talk about it right now for the next two or so weeks I spend all my time with Dan and
Lisa separately I kept telling them how I hope they got back together because the reason they broke up was a reason
that didn't really matter Dan was just confused and really just wanted some time alone for a little while and Dan
was not home though when I had seen Lisa and from the first time I saw him in Shaker after I got back he told me how
much he loved Lisa and how he wanted to get back together with her Lisa wanted to get back together with him but she
kept saying how everyone else thought she should be a certain way since they broke up Dan and I were driven over to
Lisa's One Night by some friends and Dan and Lisa talked and it was obvious that
that they wanted to get back together in fact if I remember correctly either that
night or the following night Dan went over there and fact I remember he went over there a few times late at night
without her parents knowing during the summer on August 3rd 1990 they were a couple again so they
didn't spend that much time away from each other really uh they wanted to be together and from all my time with them
I think they really did love each other next up in the hot seat is 17-year-old Rebecca Boatright and the
subject of the conversation is Kevin young so I know Dan dford because two summers ago I went to Germany with his
sister Debbie dford debb deie and I became close friends and through her I met her brother and after that Dan drer
and I became pretty good friends Thursday September 13th 1990 Dan called me at about 8:20 p.m. he had asked me if
I wanted to come over later and told me a bunch of people were coming over later
and I said like who and he said Chris Jones Lisa puit and maybe Kevin young and maybe Dan Messinger I told him I
didn't think I could get out I was tired and I wanted to get to bed and that was
the end of our conversation Friday September 14th 1990 during first period at the high school Dr Rumba said that
Lisa puit had been involved in a homicide last night and since nobody really knew how it happened the basic
rumor was that she had been hit on the head with a blunt object and her body had been found on the sidewalk corner of
South Woodland and Lee later at around 1:30 p.m. I went up to araba at Shaker Square and since I was waiting for
Debbie dryr to come in and since Kevin young was the only one I knew up there I sat down and talked to him basically he
said has your day been as bad as everybody else is and I said well it was pretty depressing I said it doesn't seem
like the type of thing that would happen in Shaker and I was really worried for Dan dford since no doubt he's probably a
suspect somehow or other we got onto the topic of rape I said well if she was raped isn't there a possibility that
they will find some semen sample on her body and Kevin said I don't think she was raped I said well just assuming from
that they will be able to prove who did it and he said well tests like that are 100% accurate so if Dan drfort did it
then chances are they probably know already but I really don't think she was raped then I told him that I had heard
she had been pulled from her bike around the corner on South Woodland before Lee
and that she had been hit on the head with a blunt object he said no I think she was stabbed I said well that's not
what I heard and he said I'm pretty sure she was stabbed then I said it it makes
sense that her bike would have been found in the area like before you reach Lee since from what I heard her body had
been found on the sidewalk on the corner of South Woodland and Lee Kevin said he
thought they found it around there in the field nearby around that area I said not that it really matters since nobody
really knows except the police he said yes you're probably right then I went to get a pink lemonade and when I came back
I said some extremely psychotic person had to have done this and he said what makes you think that and I said well
it's not the type of thing a perfectly sane person does then he sort of like sat up and said really loudly and really
quickly well I would only kill in self-defense then he like switched to the person golf issue he said what does
Fabo think about what's going on and I said he thinks that they should reinstitute the draft and to add women
to it which I think is pretty unfair this was said pretty jokingly he said why and I said since women are obviously
the superior sex I don't think we should be for forced to go off to war and be killed he said but you think people who
are my age and are about to be headed off to college should be forced to go there and be killed and I said well
that's what Fabo thinks and Kevin started rolling his eyes and kept saying my God I should storm his house and kill
him then I said somewhat jokingly as long as I'm not shipped off and he said oh because you don't think women should
be killed and I said exactly he said I don't know about that I can think of a few women I would like to see dead I
said like who he said the only thing I want to know is if the US is in the Persian Gulf because of NATO Pride or
oil and he kept on babbling about this I got bored so I told him I had to go pick
up my mother which I did when you talked to Kevin young at Arabica on Friday afternoon did he tell you how he learned
of the death of Lisa puit no did Kevin mention anything about being invited over to danford's house the night before
no did Kevin Young ever indicate directly to you any kind of romantic feelings towards Lisa
puit yeah but it was quite a while ago it was like in the context like Dan was a God because he could get any woman he
wanted and I said why do you care and he said because she has a great ass I said
why do you like her or something and he said I'm not going to tell you because you'll go tell Dan I said I don't care
one way or another how people feel sexually towards Lisa and he said if you were a guy you would have you ever known
Kevin young or have you ever seen Kevin young carrying any type of weapon no on Friday afternoon at araba when you spoke
to Kevin young did he mention any conversation he had with Kenny Workman the night before no is there anything
else that you wish to add to this statement [Music] No finally the police speak to
16-year-old Christopher Jones a close friend of Dan dordz last Thursday September 13th 1990
at the end of 10th period I was met outside my 10th period classroom by Dan dord and Lisa puit and several friends I
spoke to Dan and went to my locker got my bike out and as I was riding out I ran into Dan dford again outside the
school we rode our bikes around the school and met up with Dan Messinger we rode over to messinger's house and he
picked up his bike and we rode over to my apartment we stayed there until about 4:10 p.m. then they both rode off on
their bikes and I ran back to school for fencing I got back from fencing at about
6:40 p.m. I had a note saying that Lisa puit called at 5:30 p.m. I called her back but her phone was busy I figured
she wanted to get a hold of Dan dford and had already gotten a hold of him and so I didn't call her back again then I
got a call from Dan dord at about 8:00 p.m. we talked for a while and he said that he was going to have some people
over later and that I should give him a call if I wanted to come I called him back at about 10 p.m. he said that Tex
was over at his house and that Lisa might show up later and that I could stop by if I wanted to and give him a
call later I called him back at about A4 to 11:00 p.m. or so and said that I wasn't going to come over then I
finished the paper I was working on and went to bed I went to bed between 11:00 p.m. and 12: midnight I I got a call at
6:30 a.m. on September 14th 1990 from Dan Messinger saying that Lisa puit had been murdered I didn't really believe
him and I tried going back to sleep and I got a call about 5 minutes later from Katherine Schultz saying the same thing
I asked her if I could go over to her house because some other people were over there at the time and I called back
Dan Messinger and asked him if he wanted to go over to Catherine Schultz's house
he said he could pick me up and he picked me up about 5 minutes later and we drove over there we heard on the news
that Lisa died we got her to Catherine's house and Katherine was there Shelby hien and c and Kirsten from Germany and
Regina who is Lisa's foreign exchange student and Kim Cole we stayed there about a half an hour and all the girls
left except for Kiren and then Brian and Adam Keaton came over and Jeff Michael and Charlie Martin also came over we
talked for about a half an hour then I got a ride back to my apartment from the Kings I stayed there until halfway
through second period then I went to school I met up with some people there and we talked to several teachers about
the death then we walked around until third period I went to third period German class about half the class were
close friends of Lisa half were regular students in that class we were talked to
by several counselors and ministers about Lisa's death after that class ended I went outside for a while about a
half a period and sat under a tree I came back into school into the band room where about 15 close friends of Lisa
were gathered talking about her we split up after about a half an hour and then went to talk to certain teachers and we
got back together and got rides to Catherine Schultz's house there we talked to about 20 people at Catherine's
house we ate lunch and talked about things there about 300 p.m. myself Jennifer margules and Judy Miller and
Rachel lenthal went over to danford's house Dan wasn't home the police were searching all around the house and Brett
Coro was there about 15 minutes later Mrs dord came in and asked if it was all right to come into the house then she
went back and came back to the house with the car with Mr drier Dan dordt and Debbie dord we went
inside we went into Dan's TV room basically sat there for a while and then a little bit later Dan minger and Haley
Warren showed up after going to a press conference at the city hall we talked about what they had heard
there and eventually we watched the news Dan was pretty angry about being a suspect or the way they portrayed that
pretty much from there many people came and left Dan's house that night eventually me and Dan Messinger got a
ride from Scott Fiero to the pu's house we talked to Mr puit we went up into their house and spent a little time in
Lisa's [Music] room on the next episode we'll come back to Chris Jones's interview with police
but until then think on what we've just learned in the hours after Lisa Pit's murder Dan dford is the main suspect a
group of Dan's friends meet up to discuss the case the kids don't want it to be their friend nobody wants it to be
Dan dford after that meeting the teens tell police it was Kevin Young from that moment on the only suspect in the eyes
of of the police is the weird kid in school Kevin young though not one piece of evidence links him to the
crime while all this is going on two of Dan's friends talk their way into Lisa's
home to be alone in her room in what world does that request make sense what was the purpose of that visit
was something taken from that room all we know for sure is that police never followed up on this detail they
never again asked Chris what he was doing in Lisa Pit's [Music] [Music] bedroom you can live out your Master Chef dreams
when you find a professional on Angie to tackle your dream kitchen remodel connect with skilled
professionals to get all your home projects done well visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie that

Shaker Heights - Episode 3: The Crush

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

In the early morning hours of Friday, September 14, 1990, 16 year old Lisa Pruett was stabbed to death in Shaker Heights. This is a 6 part true crime series. The bulk of the story comes from actual police interviews. As the story unfolds, ask yourself, who do you think killed Lisa Pruett?Directed and produced by True Crime Garage. Co-produced by The Philosophy of Crime and narration written by James Renner

A BIG Thank You to all of our voice actors!Jordan Bonaparte - www.NightTimePodcast.com (http://www.nighttimepodcast.com/) Tyler Allen - www.MindsofMadnessPodcast.com (http://www.mindsofmadnesspodcast.com/) Jessica Bettencourt - True Crime Garage & Scene of the Crime Podcasts Mike Bussing - Executive Producer of Truth & Justice with Bob RuffBob Ruff - www.TruthandJusticePod.com (http://www.truthandjusticepod.com/) Tim Pilleri - www.CrawlSpace-Media.com (http://www.crawlspace-media.com/) Aaron H - www.GenWhyPod.com (http://www.genwhypod.com/) & www.FramedPod.com (http://www.framedpod.com/) Maggie Freleng - www.MaggieFreleng.com (http://www.maggiefreleng.com/) Bill Huffman - My Passion Case and Who killed Podcasts - www.SloBurnMedia.com (http://www.sloburnmedia.com/) Morgan - The Captain & Morgan Podcast Jessica Yuan - www.AsianMadnessPod.Podbean.com (http://www.asianmadnesspod.podbean.com/) Melissa Lee - Victimology PodcastScotty Boombox - www.ScottyBoombox.com (http://www.scottyboombox.com/) Jesse P Pollock - Author of “Death on the Devil’s Teeth” & “The Acid King”James Renner - www.PhilosophyOfCrime.com (http://www.philosophyofcrime.com/)

The full archive of True Crime Garage is available on the Stitcher listening app - for FREE. Our show “Off the Record” is only on Stitcher Premium. For a FREE month of listening go to http://stitcherpremium.com/truecrimegarage and use promo code GARAGE

Beer Fund: https://truecrimegarage.com/home

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com (https://pcm.adswizz.com) for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Brief Summary

The episode details the murder of Lisa Puit and the ensuing investigation focusing on suspects Dan Dford and Kevin Young.

Key points

The Murder of Lisa Puit. 16-year-old Lisa Puit was stabbed 21 times in a suburban neighborhood.
FBI Profiling Insights. FBI profilers provide insights into Kevin Young's personality and potential motives.
Kevin Young as a Suspect. Investigators focus on Kevin Young, a classmate, as the prime suspect.
Interview Techniques for Kevin Young. FBI agents suggest strategies for interviewing the prime suspect, Kevin Young.
Witness Interviews Continue. Detectives sit down with Dan Messenger, providing context for Lisa's final hours.
Lisa's Exciting News. Lisa shares her excitement about getting her driver's license and plans with friends.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

We'll never know exactly what was discussed.

Reflecting on the private meetings of Dan's friends

2:20WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

More from True Crime Garage TV

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.