Shaker Heights - Episode 6: A Clockwork Orange | Forensic Files

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GameChanger [Music] [Music] welcome to Shaker Heights episode 6 A Clockwork Orange Lisa PR is dead someone stabbed
her 21 times in the early morning hours of September 14th 1990 she was found behind the Mansion
where her boyfriend Dan dford lived with his parents Dan's friends pointed the finger
at the weird kid in school Kevin young and although there was no evidence linking Kevin to the the crime and even
though he had an alibi he quickly became the prime suspect for the detectives of
this small town department they were out of their league and they knew it so they
enlisted a renowned psychologist from Syracuse University to help them get a confession from Kevin Young no matter
[Music] what yeah I understand that and and indeed that's a very powerful Alibi um
that the father indicates that Dan was in fact in his room and that they both heard the screams together yes that's
that's very powerful there is some I must say that we we had some difficulty still however
with Dan's subsequent Behavior he after they go out to the edge of the property and and I'll go back into the home
apparently satisfied that the source of the scream has left the area whatever and that they can't find anything
unusual apparently Dan reexit the house to find the bicycle and then in fact without telling his parents um calls 911
on his own uh to report what he believes to be now suspicious circumstances but then when the parents hear the Pu it's
outside on the lawn you know and they're distraught and here are all these police
vehicles the crime scene being established Dan goes to bed right Falls asleep uh while the parents are waiting
for the plane closed detective to come in and interview them huh right I found that I I found that unusual um and
somewhat disconcerting but what we decided here was that dick and I decided that well that's not that's academic
right because it's not Dan that we're going to be interrogating it's it's Kevin and whether or not he's the guy or
not we want to give the full shot to to use the best psychological coercion we can right
um if in fact so that we get an admission out of him if in fact he is the killer what is is the Forum talking
to Kevin now he's going to well what we're trying to do is get a investigative grand jury assembled where
all Witnesses would be subpoena and questioned before grand jury including Kevin young what kind of immunity is
involved in that uh none that I know of is Council Allowed no council no council
he may take the Fifth Amendment almost certainly Council would advise him to do that given that he has no immunity even
willing immunity in such an interrogation right Kevin is um uh legally qualifies for adult offender
status is that right that's right let me try to discourse for a minute or two about what I believe to be the
psychological Dynamics behind Kevin's peculiarities there's no question that on the face of it Kevin's evidence is
self-loathing self-deprecation what is sometimes called poor self-image he is in fact
uh I there's some suspicion that his own hospitalization was for an abortive suicide attempt do you know that to be
the case no the most recent one yes not to most well he indicated to the interviewer that he had nothing left to
live for I have that person with me the officer that did the interviewing Sergeant gray is here with me in my
office an excellent job by the way Sergeant it was It was obviously a very productive interview even though we
didn't get an an admission there are some very revealing points that you undoubtedly felt that he was just about
to Tumble to to roll over dick and I both commented that uh in reading your report that first of
all frequently visiting the bathroom I mean how many times three times within some short span of time right right all
the signs of stress that something is bothering him yeah I mean all the physical signs in terms of eye contact
and motion and sitting back and forth for it in your chair and all the classic kind of interview things that you'd like
to see once in a while were all clearly there I mean the stress was real high on
his level what did you make of him saying that he could tell you that he had done it and and then he'd go to the
hospital for a couple years but he really couldn't live with himself he didn't tell you the truth I mean I mean
it it's almost like is there a truth other than he did it that or I mean one of the things we had been warned about
ahead of time was the possibility that he had already Justified some sort of course of action in his mind and if his
justification had something to do with it no I really didn't do it or someone else did it I mean if maybe he had
totally blocked it out we really don't know I mean we were already prepared for the possibility that he had Justified
this somehow and that he wasn't going to feel uh yes this is uh on Jim Wright's advice right right yeah I I I concur um
I I think that Deni as a defense mechanism for Kevin is high in his hierarchies of his ego protection he a
he's a fantasizer he's a his behavior is compensatory in character let me talk about that a bit I think when you find
such virulent self-deprecation self-loathing I think you need to reach for an accountant it doesn't stand on
its own Merit and the the account is that you look at this the self-loathing as compensatory Behavior as denial
Behavior that is to say denial of the intrinsic the underlying belief that that you are in fact Superior that you
are ideal in every way that you are omnipotent um the opposite of someone who is unworthy you are supremely worthy
but that those thoughts are anxiety producing the Greeks used to call that the the sin of chuus the the notion that
you aspire to godhood that you that you are a god causes enormous anxiety and that that anxiety is
compensated for defended against by the posture of this self-deprecating self-loathing fence so you're very happy
to talk about you're being suicidal you're being unworthy that nobody will talk to you you're not found desirable
by either men or women or what what have you because that's your pose that's your
deception what you don't want to talk about is the fact that you're a God that you control everyone that you believe
you control your life Etc and all the people around you you live a deception a pose the opposite of it seems to me that
of what perhaps in the attack we originally took you don't minimize you you maximize what he did his
responsibility his significance his capacity that the crime is important not minimal he doesn't need help he needs
Applause for what he was able to accomplish his significance his importance Etc his guilt feeling
his guilt and there's no doubt that he in fact feels guilty and that this post offense behavior of of starting a new
life and I found that very significant in the statement that his profile of the killer suggests that he would move on
and start a new life and then when he referred to his circumstances at College he referred to that as a new life for
him right he's in fact he's very comfortable and whatever guilt he may have had I think he's been able to deal
with I think that it's transparent and and obvious that the guilt is not sufficient to compensate or overbalance
his fears of the punishment that will acre to will follow upon confession of that guilt he's already fantasized
circumstances of his imprisonment so what we need to do is is we need to arouse him arouse the guilt again and
that that may be difficult because now he's had ample time to scar over to see that nothing is going to happen that
he's been successful his Godlike Powers have again phased him because he is Invincible but I think that's the tact
we need to take that he should feel guilty he doesn't need help he needs punishment does he feel that guilt still
no uh as I'm saying I think he's originally it's completely he was able to compensate adequately for this
because God felt guilt indeed the opposite he would have been conflicted between feeling the importance of having
done something that ordinary Mortals don't do you know normally Mortals don't kill he understands I think this his
problems with his impulse control he's impulsive he has a great deal of difficulty with impulse control he has
to guard against this incredible power that is within him this this power to anger to violence and he has to protect
himself from that and part of that's his pose of self-deprecation Etc self-loathing we need to play to what he
believes to be his strengths and in so doing we will arouse in him his anxieties the anxieties and feeling
Godlike and those anxieties will trigger his guilt feelings again we need to do what you would do more with a a serial
killer it seems to me has in favor the Notions of power in being able to kill to recreate that sense of power
significance that life-taking capacity the interview took the tact of minimizing you need help well you know
they don't really you know you full offenders we can mitigate this to the judge because you felt remorse etc etc
I'm saying and we know that that didn't work right I'm saying we maximize the crime instead maximize the power the
significance you you go back through the crime with a kind of facius dwelling upon the details but particularly with
respect to the power the sheer marvelous power of being able to take a life do you follow me yes I mean almost
pornographic and I'm as you're saying this I'm thinking thinking I know how we could do that I'm just not sure how to
do that under the controlled circumstances here here's what I was thinking what are the we need to shape
up a behavior the same way you would try to shape up a behavior in a laboratory Mouse I'm going to go through that
scenario this this behavioral shaping that's very dramatic works very well look you you take a mouse a rat a
laboratory rat and you want him to let's say twirl around three times clockwise in a sort of ballet like pouette so what
you do to control is you're in control over the reinforcements you don't need to punish but you can withhold the
reinforcements so what you do is you wait for the animal to turn its head and look to the right and then you give it a
little bit of food then you wait and it turns its head to the right and you don't give him food now again for for
turning right you wait until he moves his shoulder to the right along with the head and then you give him a piece of
food and then you keep waiting for more and more exaggerations of this form of behavior until it's a quarter of a turn
and then it's a half a turn then it's a full turn it takes an enormous amount of
patience because you have to wait for this Behavior to appear in classical conditioning rather than operant
conditioning you of course make the response appear that you want because you're dealing with some reflexive
response that you're just going to change to a different stimulus but in operant conditioning you have to wait
for the behavior to to occur now of course you can make the beh more likely to occur because you've got
him in a situation where the animal's hungry right and and inactive you can't condition an animal that's
asleep college classes and introductory courses in Psych curriculum says I've always done this it's it's a nice
demonstration the class gets together and decides that they're going to have the professor stand on his left leg
deliver the whole lecture on his left leg so what they do is they wait for him to shift his weight to the left and then
all of them just nod and smile and they look very very interested in what he's just said and and that's a powerful
reward for the professor and then they wait until it happens again and then they all nod and smile and between this
they would they would hold the reinforcement they look bored inattentive to maximize the reward and
it's very dramatic it works it works every time the professor by the end of class is hopping around on one leg and
doesn't realize why just seems to like to be on the on that one leg to talk on that one leg now here's forgive the
anecdotal sort of thing we need to oper condition Kevin Clockwork Orange on Kevin if if you've seen that film and
the way we do that is when he takes the fifth and he almost certainly will take the fifth you turn your back on him you
ignore him you in fact even better would would be to make aide to somebody else talk to someone else so that Kevin
understands that there is reward out there to be given because Kevin loves attention God expect people to worship
them it's their due but if you ignore them gods don't like that gods don't like to be ignored they like attention
and notice that Kevin in when when you interviewed him he wow you know he he was ready to go for the whole night I
mean you were you were tiring more than he was right absolutely and ready to go forever
I he loved it oh oh he loved it you know he he wanted the polygraph he wanted everything oh jeez you know let's go I
love it you know just just keep giving me attention worship me worship me worship me if he wanted anything if he
ask for a drink of water you turn and give him his fullest attention oh yes yes Kevin you shower him with attention
affection reward now the next time he asks for water we don't now you don't need it again because now you need
something more you need a demonstration of his cooperativeness Etc I think you get the picture we we
just just need to manipulate the reinforcements and you have to do it in a very conscious way trying to get him
to talk and then as soon as he starts to talk if he starts to talk then we need to shape what he says we want him to
shape talk about we want to reinforce talk about guilt personal responsibility we withhold the
reinforcement for intellectualization the the mechanisms of denial third person stuff and
obfuscation you know distractions trying to get at what comes closer and closer to a personal confession or a revelation
of what he's done I don't think he would gladly take the fifth and and I think what you need
to do is avoid letting him get reinforcements for taking the fifth and that would be for example just
continuing on one question after another so he he gets a chance to say on advice
of councel I refuse to answer that question on the grounds at May tend to incriminate me and he loves that what a
performance wow you know one after the other and then it gets very dramatic you know because of its repetition under the
stress and conditions will it be possible for this attorney to condition him enough to just stick to that Fifth
Amendment no no I I don't think so he's going to want that attention I I think I
think that he prefers not to do that he he would prefer to try to charm manipulate be the center of attention
center stage in this testimony for the grand jury and there's nothing nothing that the attorney can tell him that
would convince him of that you've seen this I mean people absolutely self-destructive in such situations
because their personality will not allow them to be silent so I think that Kevin's position I I think he would like
that I think what he needs is well without confessing he needs to have and that's what I think he did in the
interview he came so close to confessing what had happened in this third person form but that's experation that's
expiation of sin that's Absolution of sin you gave him you absolved him of sin because you didn't stand up and say how
disgusting how absolutely unadulterated disgusting you you can sit here and talk
like that about murdering another human being and and expect me to sit here and say well Kevin you know I I want I want
you to be able to live with this you've got to [ __ ] he went away from this interview saying wow it's wonderful it's
really not that big a deal is it I mean here's another guy that was hey he didn't get angry he he didn't get upset
and Kevin told us that he wanted somebody to get upset he says through interview he says you're going to you're
going to have to pound on them you have to keep after him over and over and over
again what he was saying was hey I did an important thing and and you tell him it wasn't important it makes sense
that's not a criticism the way that you went about your interview no no no no no
and when I looked at it I said to Murray that you did every textbook thing that quanico ever thought of doing and I was
very impressed with what you did no had it worked we would have done the perfect
thing it didn't work so in indeed you have to go that way first you can't go from the way I'm
suggesting backwards you can't go from where I'm suggesting to nurture him no way I mean after you do this after you
maximize the crime you you can't minimize it you're called out but you can go from minimizing to to maximizing
he gave us the opening of it needed to be done over and over which gave us the format to change however once the
attorney stepped in it was minimize it don't talked to his client we we kind of got stuck on that the other thing is
that I I think that one needs to see behind one needs to see I'm starting out from the presumption that this suicidal
self-effacing self-deprecating self-loathing needs an account you can't just say oh oh oh that's true and accept
it as if it were the basis it's not the basis it it is in fact it needs an explanation I presume I'm not seeing
this kid but I presume he's he's not deformed he's not some monster no no he's just another ordinary kid
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college suddenly some girl comes up to him after class and talks to him I I mean he doesn't present the image of
this loathing where nobody wants to talk to him nobody likes him Etc he wants to have shock value and in
all the his writings all his baloney is for it shock value it's designed to say well listen I want your attention I I
want importance I want to have an effect on you and that's what we use as the reinforcement for manipulation so my
explanation is that when I see something as virent as as the self-loathing I need
to reach for an explanation and the most typical explanation for that is it's uh
compensatory Behavior anything that's showy and a facade like that appearing showy in that form usually has an
explanation compensation it's it's the guy that's the homo Basher the homosexual Basher the super masculine
guy whose anxieties are because he believes himself not to be masculine so it's showy right it's it's a
demonstration more for an audience than for anything else we must not we must not give him the Applause must not be
the audience that he wants us to be we've got to reach underneath for the secret places that he hides and so the
trick and interrogation it seems to me whatever he wants to talk about we don't want to talk about whatever he
volunteers is not what we want to be we want to be where the secret place is you
know the the last thing he wants to say are are those things is that plan the issue of him wanting to be in control or
feeling in control oh there's there's no question about that too yes he's he's very manipulative very controlling but
in addition control is important for this kid because as I say and and I think this is intrinsic he's got impulse
disorder he's impulsive and and I believe that he says that he's scared of the capacities he knows are in him when
he loses control he can just flip out and and I think that's one of the reasons that makes him a very good
suspect because my impression of this crime scene was that it was an Impulse act okay have you talked to Jim again
since before you should talk to Jim and and maybe run some of this by him see what all the inputs you can get would be
useful have you talked to him yet to Jim Wright yeah no we haven't we haven't talked to him since the interview but we
haven't I can't believe you woke him up at 3:00 in the morning I I I just can't believe that well gee that's what he
gets for giving us his home phone number that's why you see what he said to you I
I I think you're tired I think you ought to go to bed let me throw one other thing into this we have a group of kids
that were involved with him that we keep in contact with regularly in fact Kevin
has been at a couple of parties over the last couple weekends Kevin always somehow brings up the issue of Lisa I
mean it's always brought up by Kevin in one instance he made some statements to the effect of it's too bad the police
never had any sort of suspect or any leads or anybody that they could look at for this is there any way we can play
into that or does that mean anything to us the general response is kids don't even want to talk about it they just say
yeah yeah yeah and leave them which is the other thing is that I think I think you need to we we need to look at this
in in the salacious pornographic interests that are that are being served Kevin has to be able to by bringing it
up able to recreate a moment of real power real significance real unusualness at the same time he continues to to get
this acceptance let me let me tell you an anecdote that that amazed me May Rous your intuition about how I'm trying to
explain this we've all had the experience of having a very Vivid active dream the kind of dream that's very
strong very Vivid and waking up and think to yourself wow what a dream that was and then as you try to hold on to
the details of that dream it gradually slips between your fingers and it and it just Fades as you the harder you try to
look at the content of the dream the more it fades and yet it was Vivid and and very real and very active and and
you sense that by contrast to those instances where you wake up and it's a it's in a vivid dream and you turn to
the significant other in your life your partner somebody or you you go to work and you say my Lord I had this dream
last night you wouldn't believe this dream I had and you're able to relate all those details in that dream I mean
one from the other now one account of that might be as follows that the content of the dream
that you cannot remember is anxiety producing and so you need not you don't want to think about it you want to put
it behind you so it slips through your fingers because it's too anxiety-provoking the content of the
dream that you have this urgency to tell somebody about is is content that you need to test against somebody else so
for example and typically the person you want to tell it to is the person that's
significant in the dream so you turn to your partner and you say I've had this incredible dream about and it was you
and and me and we were da da da da da da and and you go on with this and suppose
that the content just suppose the content of that dream is symbolically reflective of you killing this other
person so you go through this in gory detail but but symbolically it it doesn't sound obvious that you're
killing the person it's well you see I dreamt that you were on this cliff and and and then we were floating down and
and there were these rocks down below and here you are describing to the person how you're going to kill him you
know like uh well you're you're going to be splattered all over those rocks and then what what does the person say to
you they they don't say as I said you know stand up and say you son of a [ __ ] there's no way in the world I'm going to
sit here and have somebody who dreams like that and have any respect for such a person or even any affection no now
now what did they say oh you have such a wonderful imagination oh wow isn't that
wonderful that's that's really interesting isn't it I mean here's the person you just said to them I'm going
to kill you saying isn't that wonderful you're just a marvelous person and so you have uh expiated the sin of these
desires to hurt the other person by the other person accepting them and continuing to say you're a nice person
you're okay well every time Kevin raises this and and doesn't have people get up
and shun him he successfully establishes the point that what he did was was not so bad after all well what would happen
if they did what do you think his reaction would be if they shunned him and got real upset about it well I think
he'd have to try to convince them I I I think that that you know he was not the person that he was not worthy of their
loathing while at the same time believing that he was and indeed might become suicidal at that point so that he
could further demonstrate that he was repentant that he really didn't enjoy having killed her dick asks he wrote me
why are why are writing me a note just jump in here whe whether or not he would admit to another kid under any
circumstances I think he could I think he definitely could uh for its shock value for its convincing the the person
that that's significant I think that your account of his doing this at parties is almost tan
amount to that it is of the same character of skirting the confession that he did with you doing this thing in
the third person well the kids talk about all the angry things they'd like to tell Kevin but they're kind of afraid
to tell him because they don't know how he's going to react oh I'd advise them just the
[Music] opposite even when police detectives tried to Clockwork Orange Kevin he never
gave them a confession and here is where the tragedy is compounded the prosecutor
assigned to the case and K hoga County ends up being Carmen Marino nobody knows it back then but eventually Marino would
get in a lot of trouble for misconduct and other murder cases he did things like withhold evidence from defense
attorneys and allowing witnesses to lie on the stand what Marino did wrong was go to the psychiatric unit where Kevin
young was treated for stress after being interrogated by police and got a female
patient to say Kevin had confessed to her in the hospital off that testimony from a mental patient Marino got an
indictment against Kevin for Lisa's murder the case went to trial on June 28th 1993 it was one of the first trials to
be broadcast on court TV a trial of his peers acquitted Kevin Young on July 21st in the eyes of the law Kevin young
was not guilty of the murder of police of it but in Shaker Heights that wasn't good enough they had been told by their
trusted police detectives that this was the guy who did it and to this day the majority of people who lived through the
ordeal still believe Kevin got away with murder life was not kind to Kevin young
because of the publicity of the case he found it difficult to find a date all they had to do was Google his name he
moved back in with his parents parents and painted houses around town eventually he got his own efficiency
apartment on the east side he died at the age of 44 in February of 2017 he maintained his innocence to that
day buried in the police files obtained from Shaker Heights are a few letters that Dan dford wrote to Lisa puit when
he was in psychiatric care Dan writes quote I tried to kill myself I need out of here this place has [ __ ] me up
after I get out give me some time to return to normal I don't want you or I to make any poor decisions because of
this place and another note Dan warns Lisa quote someday I'll go too far and I'll do something very bad and you'll
yell at me and be serious and I won't be able to handle it but you can't let me get away with murder I look at you and I
see what I've done to you I'm a bad influence on people Chris is another example of this and believe it or not I
think I've made Kevin worse than he already was later he goes on to write quote I want to poke your eyes out with
my favorite pocket knife [Music] [Music] the Angie's List you know and trust is now Angie and we're so much more than
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Shaker Heights - Episode 6: A Clockwork Orange

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

In the early morning hours of Friday, September 14, 1990, 16 year old Lisa Pruett was stabbed to death in Shaker Heights. This is a 6 part true crime series. The bulk of the story comes from actual police interviews. As the story unfolds, ask yourself, who do you think killed Lisa Pruett?Directed and produced by True Crime Garage. Co-produced by The Philosophy of Crime and narration written by James Renner

A BIG Thank You to all of our voice actors!Jordan Bonaparte - www.NightTimePodcast.com (http://www.nighttimepodcast.com/) Tyler Allen - www.MindsofMadnessPodcast.com (http://www.mindsofmadnesspodcast.com/) Jessica Bettencourt - True Crime Garage & Scene of the Crime Podcasts Mike Bussing - Executive Producer of Truth & Justice with Bob RuffBob Ruff - www.TruthandJusticePod.com (http://www.truthandjusticepod.com/) Tim Pilleri - www.CrawlSpace-Media.com (http://www.crawlspace-media.com/) Aaron H - www.GenWhyPod.com (http://www.genwhypod.com/) & www.FramedPod.com (http://www.framedpod.com/) Maggie Freleng - www.MaggieFreleng.com (http://www.maggiefreleng.com/) Bill Huffman - My Passion Case and Who killed Podcasts - www.SloBurnMedia.com (http://www.sloburnmedia.com/) Morgan - The Captain & Morgan Podcast Jessica Yuan - www.AsianMadnessPod.Podbean.com (http://www.asianmadnesspod.podbean.com/) Melissa Lee - Victimology PodcastScotty Boombox - www.ScottyBoombox.com (http://www.scottyboombox.com/) Jesse P Pollock - Author of “Death on the Devil’s Teeth” & “The Acid King”James Renner - www.PhilosophyOfCrime.com (http://www.philosophyofcrime.com/)

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Brief Summary

The episode examines the unsolved murder of Lisa PR and the flawed investigation of Kevin Young, who was acquitted despite public suspicion.

Key points

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Rosetta Stone Holiday Deal. Get 50% off a lifetime membership to learn any of 25 languages.
Murder Mystery Unfolds. Lisa PR was found dead, stabbed 21 times, leading to a shocking investigation.
Kevin Young: Prime Suspect. Despite having an alibi, Kevin Young becomes the main suspect in Lisa's murder.
The Manipulative Persona. Exploring the facade of a young man seeking attention through shock value.
The Crime Scene Analysis. A deep dive into the impulsive behavior of a suspect and its implications.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

He was found behind the Mansion where his boyfriend lived.

Details about the murder victim's location.

1:45WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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