Shaker Heights - Episode 5: The Crucible | Forensic Files

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brand [Music] [Music] never [Music] welcome to Shaker Heights episode five The Crucible flitting floating falling on
the ground I freeze on children's eyelashes and blur their altered vision of the
world they see a different Earth than I of candy and playgrounds and eternal smiles
I see the truth cold bare trees stripped of life and hard ground that poem was written by a
16-year-old girl named Lisa puit not long before she was stabbed 21 times and Left for Dead behind her boyfriend's
house in Shaker Heights Ohio in September of 1990 in the hours after her murder a
small group of close friends gathered away from their parents away from the police and made up their minds that the
person who committed this crime was the weird kid in school the kid who wore Metallica t-shirts Kevin young one by
one they went to police and pointed the finger at Kevin and although there was not one piece of evidence linking Kevin
to the crime scene regardless of the fact that he had an Alibi the Small Town police were taken by the children's
stories and they decided Kevin young was their best suspect a tragedy was playing out in
real time just outside of Cleveland and the name of that tragedy was The Crucible on September 26th
1990 several detectives from Shaker Heights traveled to Ohio State University where Kevin young was
beginning his freshman year because of what happens next Kevin Young's life will be quite short he will never hold
down a real job or have any long relationships with women no family of his own he will die at the age of 44 in
2017 the detectives have consulted with FBI profilers who explained how they could extract a confession from Kevin
speak to him late at night they said bring lots of candy and soda be good cops try to make friends with him let
him feel safe And So It [Music] Goes Wednesday September 26th 1990 deputy chief Jim brosus detective
Sergeant Dan vardo Detective Tom kensky officer benur secretary Ros and I drove to Ohio State
University we arrived in Columbus about 6:00 p.m. and met with Captain John Petri and detective Jim younger of the
Ohio State University Police Department also present were detective Sergeant Tim
Reed and detective Tim Ward who had gone to Columbus earlier in the day the campus police assigned one of their
officers to watch the dormatory to let us know when Kevin young came in we planned to make contact with Kevin about
8:00 p.m. we then went to the rata Inn to get settled and have dinner as of about 8:00 p.m. the Columbus Police had
not located Kevin one of their officers called the phone in Kevin's room asked for Kevin and was told he was not in
this officer then set up surveillance on Kevin's room about 900 p.m. we decided to return to the police department upon
our arrival detective younger explained that one of his undercover officers has just located Kevin young he explained
that this officer was dressed as a maintenance man and was cleaning a trash room that gave him a direct view of
Kevin Young's dorm room this officer had just reported that Kevin had left his room gone down the stairs and returned
with a pop he added that Kevin was wearing a blue Woodberry run t-shirt I followed detective younger to the the
dormatory Rob house is one of the dormitories in moral Tower located on the campus at Ohio State University
detective younger and I entered the third or the main floor this is the only entrance and is staffed by students who
provide security and limited access to the building detective younger identified himself as campus police and
we went up the elevator to the fifth floor there we met with the campus police officer who had seen Kevin young
he told us that Kevin's roommate and a girl had just left but that Kevin was in the room
the door to the quad dorm room number 550 was open as was the door to Kevin's room which was 554 the open hallway door
entered into a small living room type area to the rear of this area were four doors each leading to a dorm room shared
by two students detective younger entered the quad dorm room through the open door and knocked on the doorway to
Kevin's room I waited outside in the hall where I could both see and hear detective younger detective younger
displayed his badge identified himself as a campus police officer and told Kevin that someone was here to talk to
him Kevin said to ask him in and detective younger said it was private and suggested they step out in the hall
and away from his roommates it should be noted that we had selected the hallway because the room to the other quad dorm
rooms were all closed no one was in the hallway and Kevin's other roommates were
in their rooms with their doors open Kevin said he needed to get off the phone Kevin young and detective younger
then walked into the hallway I introduced myself as Tom Gray from the Shaker Heights Police Department as I
said Shaker Heights Police Department Kevin said the words with me Kevin nervously said he had been expecting to
hear from us I told Kevin that I had been interviewing a lot of people who had information about Lisa puit I added
that rich melany and Jim broes had told me that during his first interview he had offered to come in whenever
necessary to help us with the case I told him that since I needed his help I thought it made more sense for me to
come to Columbus Kevin invited us into his room I told him that I thought it was private
and best be done away from his roommates I added that I had asked detective younger to get me into the building
because that would attract far less attention than the Shaker Heights Police I went on to tell Kevin that we could
use a room at the campus police department and he appeared to get very nervous I then told him I was staying at
the rata Inn about 5 minutes from campus and that we could use my room Kevin agreed and said he just needed to get
some shoes and call home he dialed the phone then put it down got his shoes and asked if he could call later I told him
he could call home whenever he wanted detective younger Kevin young and I walked towards the elevator Kevin said
that the stairs were faster so we walked down the stairs detective younger got into his Auto and we went on to other
duties Kevin and I got into 6782 and unmarked Shaker Heights police cruiser during the drive Kevin and I did not
talk about the case instead we discussed college life dormatory life and classes
he mentioned that he was glad to be at school and that it was an opportunity to begin a new life he explained that he
had not decided on a major but was interested in business he added that his real interest was in economics and we
talked a little about economics the Adam Smith Foundation he started in high school and Mr fio his high school
economics teacher we discussed the adjustment to college classes Kevin said it was an easy transition because what
he was doing in college was a review of what he did in high school he said he tested out of enough credits that he
will be a sophomore midyear he also talked about the honors program in Ohio state that he is currently enrolled in
Kevin and I arrived at the motel about 945 p.m. we parked by door number two and took the elevator to the fifth floor
room 520 was around the corner to the right as we exited the elevator as we entered the room Kevin remarked that it
was a nice room he mentioned calling home and asked if he could wait until after we
finished I told him he could call when he wanted and offered to let the city of Shaker Heights pay for the call I
suggested he have a seat and make himself comfortable he sat in the seat on the couch nearest the window as I sat
on the other end of the couch there was a loud noise like a helicopter from outside Kevin asked if we could close
the windows I got up closed both sliding doors and turned the air conditioner on
low I began by explaining to Kevin that I spent the last two weeks talking to people and Gathering as much information
as possible in an attempt to figure out what happened to Lisa I told Kevin that I needed some insight from him in
addition to just discussing his involvement Kevin said he was eager to cooperate in any way that he
could I told Kevin that this trip to Columbus was important to me I explained that we were under pressure from the
media and there were some loose ends and questions I had about his involvement with the case Kevin responded with a few
comments about how bad the television stations are and how bad he felt about what they did to Dan he added that he
would like to resolve this before the media gets a hold of the story Kevin asked how long we would be and I told
him I wasn't sure I explained to Kevin that since I came to him for help he could decide when he was ready to stop
talking and I would take him back to his dormatory he mentioned that he had an 8:00 class but added that he was a night
person and we could take our time we discussed his class schedule in the classes he was taking I offered Kevin a
pop and he chose a Coke from the can whoops I offered I offered Kevin a pop and he chose a Coke from the can the
only way I drink it I then reminded Kevin that I was a police officer that I was investigating a
crime I then reminded Kevin that I was a police officer and that I was investigating a crime in which he was
still a suspect Kevin said that detective melany had explained all that to him I told him
that he had a right to remain silent and didn't have to talk to me Kevin said he
wanted to help I told him that we could stop or take a break whenever he wanted he said he knew that as I started to
explain that he could talk to an attorney Kevin interrupted me and said that he understood his rights he
explained that detective melany had explained all his rights and that he signed a paper that he
understood I asked Kevin to tell me what he thought about the incident Kevin replied that as he told detective meany
he was afraid that Tex Ken Workman had done it and what scared him even more was that Tex might have done it for him
Kevin Kevin went on to explain that he didn't know how he could live with the guilt if Tex had done it for him I asked
Kevin why Tex would do it for him and Kevin replied that he Kevin had been at araba on Thursday when text came in
Kevin said he remembers that at the time he was sitting alone at a table and was
real upset about a good friend of his that had been sent to the Middle East Kevin said he remembers Tex coming
in sitting at a table with him and saying something about going over to Dan dford and that Lisa was coming over he
remembers that Tech said something about hating to be around when Dan and Lisa are
together I then ask Kevin why he thought Tex would do this Kevin replied that Tex
knew that he Kevin had a crush on Lisa for a long time even though Kevin insisted the crush was over Kevin added
the text was also worried about having an alibi for Thursday night Kevin explained that he was feeling extreme
guilt even thinking about the possibility that Tex might have done this for him I asked Kevin who he was
friends with that went to the Middle East and Kevin said it was Emanuel Robinson he then went on to explain that
Manny was not really a close friend just someone he went to high school with Kevin added that he really didn't even
know if Manny was there but that he had heard that from other friends I asked Kevin if Manny went into
the service right after high school he explained that Manny and he had just graduated together and that he didn't
know Manny very well Kevin added that he only spoken to Manny a couple of times throughout High School Kevin said it
just scared him that a kid his age was going to come back Dead from the Middle East Kevin went on to talk about the
draft and how because of his January birthday he would be one of the first kids drafted he explained that they were
going to start the draft next year by drafting 19-year-old kids I asked Kevin what he thought about the draft and he
said he didn't really think that they would do it Kevin then went on to add that he thought the draft was unfair
since they spent all that money all those years on a volunteer army Kevin added those volunteers and
reserves knew their risks when signed up and that they should not need a draft Kevin paused as if deep thought and I
told him I remembered woring about the draft in high school and that they stopped the draft the year I graduated I
then asked Kevin if he was worried about the draft and he said not really he did
not really think they would have a draft he then began to talk about settling it
through economic means free markets and why we were in the middle he went on to explain that he remembers having long
arguments really discussions with students and teachers at Shaker High School on topics like this when Kevin
was done explaining views on the issues I asked him if he enjoyed thinking and talking about things in theoretical
kinds of terms Kevin said yes he he remembers Kevin said yes he remembers doing that a lot in economics and I said
with Mr FBO and he said oh you know him he's a different sort of guy but we used
to have a lot of long talks about economics World politics and anything Kevin added that his own views were kind
of conservative and had allowed him to have some long discussion with with some kids at school that had really strong
views and then he enjoyed doing that kind of thinking and that kind of mental thought process I then told him that was
what I needed help with I explained that it would be great help to me in figuring
out what happened to Lisa puit I asked him to put himself in the place of the person who did this to Lisa puit and
tell me a little bit about what he thinks happened Kevin looked at me with a kind
of puzzled look and said just between us and I said yeah just to kind of help me
think through the thought process I began asking Kevin if he thought Lisa was riding her bike or
walking when this happened looking at me but without constant eye contact he said
that he thought she was riding her bike and that the person grabbed her off her bike and that the bike then rolled into
the bushes I asked him to go on and Kevin thought for a minute and then turned and looked out the sliding door
window and began to explain that the person person who did this really didn't plan on it to happen and he didn't
really think about it ahead of time that he was just walking around that night and kind of wandering and saw Lisa and
when these two people got close something snapped something snapped and this anger
came out that he could not control he knocked Lisa off for a bike and grabbed her and something happened and she was
stabbed with a knife and she was stabbed and she died so fast that he got scared he did not want that to happen
and he started acting frantic and crazy and running around and doing things real
quick because he was scared Kevin paused and I asked what happened next and he looked at me and said that he ran from
there Kevin added that he was sure that he will never kill again and that he was
sorry that Lisa died Kevin said that he probably has a new life a away from there Kevin thought for a moment then
repeated that he got out of there Kevin added that he was sure that this person will never kill again and that this
person was so scared when Lisa died that he will never kill again I told Kevin that I was afraid
that something might snap again and that this person might hurt someone Kevin said he was sure the person wouldn't
because the person had gone on to another life and things were better and this could never happen again I asked
Kevin to describe what he thought happened to Lisa he said she was stabbed and then he added he heard on the news
that she had been stabbed I asked him to explain in Greater detail and he said that he
thought she was stabbed from the front Kevin said that he just walked up to her and stabbed her once twice maybe
more because there was a lot of anger going on Kevin asked to use the bathroom and
in fact got stuck in there due to a sticky door we joked about it and he decided that next time he wouldn't close
the door completely he also got another pop about this time after a couple minutes stretch I asked Kevin how well
he knew the area where this had happened he told me that he often walks around at
night when he can't sleep but that he usually doesn't go to Lee Road he added that most of the time he just walks near
her house he added that he added that most of the time he just walks near his house or goes across the street and sits
in the stadium at the high school he explained that he often doesn't sleep well and that he uses the time to think
things out for himself I asked kin what kind of things he thinks about and he said that over the years he has had a
lot of problems with dealing with kids at Shaker and that he often needed time to think things out Kevin said that
happened when he would say or do something to others that bothered him he mentioned dealing with girls
specifically but added that things were better now that he had his new life at College I then asked Kevin to describe
the area and and he said there was a sidewalk in some trees but he didn't remember it in much detail I asked him
to try to remember what he could about the area to think in terms of the person who did this and to think what he would
do with the knife Kevin said that he would get rid of it only an idiot would keep the knife
I asked how he would get rid of it and Kevin real quickly replied that would be easy there will be a lot of sewers
around and if you throw it hard enough no one will ever find it still thinking in terms of the person who did this I
asked Kevin where this scared person would go to wash blood off his hands or to change
clothes he looked right at me and said that the way Lisa was stabbed this person didn't get any blood on him and
didn't get any blood on their clothes and that he didn't know where they would go if they
did I asked him if he was familiar with the lakes and parks in the area and he again said that he did not know where
this person would go to wash or change I then asked Kevin to tell me how this person felt and how Lisa felt
before during and after Kevin thought for a minute and said he didn't feel anything before
because he was just walking around and didn't know it was going to happen Kevin said he then felt scared and angry
because he couldn't stop what was happening to Lisa I asked Kevin how this person felt
afterwards he paused and said guilty he added he thought the person felt a lot of guilt he then looked right
at me and quickly at it that he thought this person would feel guilty because he
Kevin always made himself feel guilty about things he couldn't control Kevin went on to explain that he felt a lot of
guilt about Lisa's death and that he felt he should have been there to stop this person even though he knows
logically that he shouldn't feel that way I asked Kevin how he thought Lisa felt
he thought for a minute looked out the window and said Lisa knew him and that she felt surprised and that she looked
real scared when she realized what was happening I asked Kevin what this person might have said to Lisa and he said that
he didn't think this person said anything to Lisa we then talked about the possibility that the motive was
robbery or rape he paused leaned back on the couch and said that he didn't think
Lisa had anything to steal that he didn't think that this person wanted to rape her that it was anger or something
snapping and that he didn't think the person was a criminal I asked Kevin if he thought this person heard Lisa's
screaming and he looked right at me and said of course he would he added that he
is so close that the screams would be like yelling in your ear right now we then talked a little bit about
what happens to people under stress I told him that there are policemen involved in shootings that don't
remember hearing the shots he simply said he didn't believe it we then talked a little bit about how
people believe different things he mentioned long arguments with other students over beliefs and added that he
sometimes expressed an extreme view to get people to argue we talked a little about crimes and how different people
have different views on what should happen to people that commit crimes I then asked Kevin what he
thought should happen to the person who did this to Lisa Kevin had been very relaxed he sat
right up looked me right in the eye spoke slowly and deliberately and said that the person that did this should be
electrocuted should hang or should at least spend his life in prison he paused then looking away to the center of the
room adding that if he is under 21 years old he should be treated like a juvenile
because you don't have any real rights up until you're 21 years old anyways and that this person needed help this person
needed guidance and that I should understand understand that the person didn't really mean to do
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[Music] 2023 I told Kevin that that was exactly why I came to Columbus that we shared concerns about the person
who did this that I agreed with him that I thought Lisa knew the person who did this that I felt that during our
investigation we had interviewed the person who did this during our investigation I explained to him that I
felt that it's sometime I would be interviewing this person and that in order to help this person I needed to
get through to him that I was from our juvenile unit and was used to helping kids get help that the reason I was
involved in all the interviews was that I had convinced my boss that this was a kid who needed help and who was not a
criminal I told Kevin that time was running out as our detectives put together a case to send the criminal to
jail I asked for advice on how to convince this person that I understood that he needed help and that the only
chance I had of convincing others was for this person to trust me I explained that someone has to present the case to
the prosecutor and that how the case is presented determines what the person is charged with I added that I viewed
myself as a neutral Outsider in the judicial process whose Duty it was to gather facts and put pieces together and
present it to a prosecutor I explained that if the facts showed evidence of a cold blooded killing then I would be
forced to present those facts but if the facts showed that someone needed help then I would present those facts I told
Kevin that my fear was that the person needed help and I would not be able to get through
them I asked Kevin for his help and asked if he thought that I could get through to this person and told him that
I valued his opinion because I thought this person was one of his group of friends Kevin told me he thought that I
could get through to this person but that it would not be easy because it would be very difficult for this person
to admit what he had done I then asked Kevin how I could get through to this person Kevin told me that I would have
to meet again and again and again with this person and that I would have to push them real hard and get them real
emotional and force them to want to talk about what happened he added that he thought it would really be in the best
interest of the person involved if I kept doing that to everybody until I got to the person so that he could admit
what he did and get the help that he needed I talked to Kevin about how important this trip down here was to me
I told him that after interviewing people most of the day I decided that I had to talk to him and that I couldn't
wait I explained explain to Kevin that many people including my boss believed that Kevin had been involved in what
happened to Lisa I told Kevin that I needed his help to explain this to my boss I asked Kevin to help me explain
and I told Kevin that I needed help from him to explain his involvement to my boss Kevin became very defensive and
said in a strong voice quote I didn't do it I then asked Kevin who he thought did
do it and he said he was very scared for text and that he thought Tex killed Lisa I asked if he thought Tex was
capable and he said that Tex had been at his house Friday morning and that Tex had threatened to kill Dan dford because
he thought Dan dford did it we then talked about whether Kevin believed that Tex really thought Dan dord did it and
the conflict between that and Kevin thinking that Tex did it Kevin finally said he did not really think texted it
but was not sure who else could have done it I told Kevin I had a lot lot of unanswered questions and asked him what
he would say if I told him that someone had seen him out of his house that night
Kevin quickly replied that no one saw me out of my house then he added it was too
dark out there for anyone to see me he went on to explain that as he had explained to detective malany he went to
bed that he woke up and was unable to sleep and that he just got up and walked around the house he added that he had
got in a sharp pain while lying in bed about 12 :30 a.m. he explained that this made him feel extremely guilty because
he felt he should have realized that something was going on that he should have been out there to do something
about it but that he stayed in his house he also said that he had talked to his next door neighbor and that his next
door neighbor had had the same pain the same time of the night and that he thought that was kind of eerie because
he quote thinks it was right about the time that somebody was doing this to Lisa puit
I told Kevin I was thinking about lcen again and asked if there was any reason he might find his fingerprints on Lisa's
jeans Kevin got very defensive said his fingerprints are not on Lisa's jeans and
insisted that I take his fingerprints to compare it with any fingerprints on Lisa's jeans I explained to Kevin that a
lot of evidence such as that was still being examined and until such time as we had fingerprints to compare something
too we would not be collecting fingerprint cards from any of the suspects involved
I explained that his answers meant more now before we got the evidence back I then told Kevin I wanted to think back
to his description of what happened to Lisa I asked Kevin if he was familiar enough with the area that he could draw
me a sketch of the area he explained that he often walks at night but that he doesn't go toward leer
Road I then showed him four pictures of the area I asked if he could look through the pictures and see if they
gave him a better pict picture of what happened he looked through the pictures then went back to the third picture of
what was looking Northbound at the sidewalk on Lee Road where the bicycle was found he stared and looked at that
picture as we talked for the next few minutes I told him that I needed the truth from him that I needed him to be
honest with me he told me that he was being honest and that he did not do anything to Lisa that he did not do it I
told him I needed his help to resolve this either way I told Kevin that detective melany had told me that during
the first interview he had offered to take a polygraph test Kevin stated that he was still ready to take the polygraph
and added that he would like to take it at any time I explained to Kevin that it
was important to do the polygraph when it was good for him I added that I appreciated his cooperation in the in
the investigation and that I could arrange to set it up for next week tomorrow whenever he wanted Kevin asked
how quickly we could get the polygraph oper operator down because he wanted to take it as quickly as possible I asked
Kevin if he wanted to go back to his dormatory and get some sleep I also told him that if he wanted he was welcome to
stay here he said that if we could do it early the next day he could just stay at
the motel he then thought about the fact that he had 8:00 classes and was concerned about missing classes and
wanted to get the polygraph over with but didn't want to interfere with his classes I told Kevin that I had prepared
for the trip and had brought up polygraph operator with me I explained that it was up to him but I told Kevin
if you wanted to do it tonight I could go talk to the polygraph operator and make arrangements for the polygraph I
explained that it would take some time for the operator to prepare the questions for the test Kevin said that
he would rather do it now whatever it took so that he could prove once and for all that he didn't do anything to Lisa
Kevin appeared to be in a very emotional state he was smoking heavily his muscles
tensed up and he had a lot of intensity in his voice I tried to just talk more about other things for a while in order
to get him more relaxed for the polygraph we talked about polygraphs and police investigations then spent time
talking about college and about Shaker at approximately 12:30 in the morning I asked Kevin if he wanted another pop he
took a break and went to the [Music] bathroom [Music] Kevin was out of cigarettes and I got
him a fresh pack I told him I had two options either bring the polygraph operator down and we talk in general
about the setup or go to the other room and brief the polygraph operator Kevin said he'd like a few minutes to sit and
smoke a cigarette so I told Kevin I'd be back in a few minutes I met with our officers in room number 516 and explain
to our polygraph operator Tom kahky where I was at in the interview and we discussed key points for the polygraph
Tom kensky asked if Kevin was rested enough to take a polygraph I then returned to talk to Kevin while the
polygraph questions were prepared I asked Kevin if he had ever taken a polygraph before and he said no
I explained to him that he needed to be rested and calm and prepared to take the
polygraph we talked about the late hour and I again offered to let him sleep either at the motel or in his dormatory
Kevin said that he felt good that he felt relaxed and that he wanted to take the polygraph and get it over with I
told him we had some time until the polygraph operator was ready we just sat and talked about the adjustment to
college we talked about how easy his classes were and his preparation from high school and said that he was real
excited and that he had a whole new chance to get a new life started and was hoping that we would come down and get
done with this and he wouldn't have to deal with it anymore because he was really comfortable in his new life that
he had started Kevin also talked at this point in time about his roommate and how
somebody at the college must do a really good job of matching roommates because he and his roommate clicked right from
the very beginning and he really liked the guy a lot and he had a nice girlfriend Kevin then mentioned that he
had already met a couple girls at Ohio State and how much better things were going at College he added that just
today a girl had walked up and talk to him in one of his classes without him ever having to talk to her or do
anything and he didn't think about getting her number but he was excited because he would see her in class the
next day and would be able to get her number and she would be a new friend to be able to talk to after we talked for a
few minutes there was a knock at the door and it was Tom kahky I introduced Kevin young and Tom kensy Tom kensky
then brought in the polygraph equipment and began setting it up on the table I talked to Kevin and asked him if there
was anything else I could do for him and he said no I told him if there were any
questions or problems that I'd be in the other the room and they could call me at
about 2: a.m. I left Tom kahky and Kevin young in room 520 I went to room 516 to
wait for the polygraph to be completed we again discussed the interview we were just discussing a number of options and
I contacted special agent Jim Wright of the FBI at home Jim Wright provided direction for the interview if it should
continue and reminded me that Kevin and I could be getting tired I decided to focus on the polygraph as a break and
the next session as a new time of talking to Kevin about 2:45 a.m. when the polygraph test was over Tom kensky
left Kevin in room 520 and came to room 516 to discuss the results he told me that there was slight deception on all
but two of the questions however he added that Kevin had an extreme high stress heart rate that could be related
to the interview or just being tired Tom kahy explained that he had not confronted Kevin with any of the results
I took the notepad with Tom kin's notes and questions on it and went back to room 520 to meet Kevin Kevin was still
seated at the table where Tom kensky had conducted the polygraph I pulled a chair
directly in front of Kevin and told him that I was concerned I explained that he
had not done well on the interview as I had hoped I explained to him that there were a number of questions for which he
showed deception I told him it was late and asked him if he thought being tired had a lot to do with Kevin said he
thought that that must be it and that he was sure he was telling the truth I looked him right in the eyes and asked
him if he did it and once again he replied I didn't do it I then reminded Kevin that we both had been up all day
and then gave him some options in terms of what he might like to do I told him that I was down here to learn the truth
from him and to help him and that I would do whatever he wanted to do I told him one choice was was that I could take
him back to his dormatory and if he wanted come back next week to see him a second choice was to take him back to
his dormatory and see him again after classes the third choice was to continue to talk Kevin said he wanted to continue
talking and that he wasn't tired and felt that he could best help by continuing to discuss the incident we
took a short break Kevin went to the bathroom and I got him another Pop I then started by talking to Kevin about
how important this was for me personally to get through to the person who did this to Lisa and get them the help that
they needed I explained that most of the police department and most of the investigators had kids and that they
were only out to solve a crime Kevin said that he had heard a lot of things about Lucasville prison and that he had
been thinking about that and that it would be really awful for the person who did this to Lisa to have to spend the
rest of their life in a place like Lucasville prison we then talked in General about the need to punish adults
and to help kids we then reviewed how he heard about what happened to Lisa he talked about text coming over to his
house about his mother walking him up about the fact that his mother knew because she'd gotten a call but that his
mother didn't tell him Kevin talked about how Tex was real wild and upset about the whole thing Kevin said he
didn't think much about it until he was at araba later in the day I told Kevin I
had some concerns about what he said to others about Lisa while he was at Arabica he said he only knew what text
told him I asked him what text told him and he said text told him that Lisa had been knocked off her bicycle bludgeoned
and raped I then confronted Kevin with the information I had that he was insisting that she had been stabbed and
not beaten and that he was insisting that she had not been raped Kevin denied that he said that and
added that maybe sometime later in the day he had heard on the news or otherwise that she had been stabbed and
that she wasn't raped and that he remembers at some point hearing that Friday night and that he figured that
must be what the kids were referring to I again started to focus on Kevin and I told him that I was scared and that I
thought he was involved and that I would really hate for something to happen to him like him going to prison for the
rest of his life I told him that I really urgently needed him to tell me the truth Kevin began moving in his seat
and looked around the room with quick darting eyes he then looked at me relaxed back in the chair and told me
that he was tired and that he needed a break he offered to sleep on the couch for a couple hours Kevin said he wanted
to get up talk some more and then take the polygraph again to prove his innocence once and for all I discussed
my concern that he'd be rested for the polygraph Kevin again offered to stay in the motel room and asked me if I would
help him in explaining to his teachers if he missed the classes because he had a couple couple of quizzes coming up I
told him I would help him in any way possible I asked Kevin if he would rather go back to his dorm room and
sleep and he said he was afraid he would spend the rest of the night explaining this to his roommates I asked Kevin if
it was a normal day and he was up till 4:00 a.m. the current time how late he would sleep he said probably until 10:
or 11: a.m. I told Kevin that I would move my bag out of the bedroom room 520 is a two- room suite and that there was
a large Bed and bathroom and that he could have the sweet to himself for the night I suggested that he just rest and
go to sleep and wake up when he was ready to go for the next day Kevin asked me if he could call his parents and I
said sure and offered again to pay for the call he then thought about the time and said he did not want to worry them
by calling at 4: in the morning and asked if he could call when he got up I told him sure he then went into the
bedroom in 520 and closed the door I straightened up Room 5 20 little and went to room 516 and advised deputy
chief broches that I was done for the night I left a note for Kevin to call room 510 if he needed something before I
returned it was 4:45 a.m. and I retired for the night I got up about 8:00 a.m. a
little before 8:30 the phone rang and it was Kevin he said he was up and ready to
go I told him I was just taking a shower and ask if he'd had a chance to take a shower he said no but he would love to I
told him there were towels soap shampoo and everything in the bathroom suite and
it was paid for and he might as well use it and to make himself comfortable and I
would be down shortly I got dressed and went down to room 520 as Kevin was coming out of the back room he told me
he was ready to go and he felt good after the shower I asked him if he would like to start with some breakfast and he
said that that sounded like a good idea there was a complimentary paper from the
motel I gave him the paper and asked if he wanted to look at it I asked him again if he still wanted to take the
polygraph he said yes he really needed to prove that he was innocent I told him I thought he'd be more relaxed if Tom
kensky went out to breakfast with us he agreed I explained that Tom kahky had gotten up early and gone for a walk I
left Kevin reading the paper for about 20 minutes until I located Tom I then returned to Kevin's room and told him
that Tom kky would be along in a couple minutes Kevin and I discussed the Middle
East and a couple other current news items until Tom kahky knocked on the door we asked Kevin where he wanted to
eat and he said anything was fine as we walked out of the room door Kevin remembered that he had forgotten to call
home I started to walk back into the room and said I would charge the call to the city Kevin thought for a minute then
said no he'd rather wait until after the polygraph when it was all over Kevin young Tom kensy and I then walked to the
area of the front desk where the motel restaurant was located and we debated between eating being there or at the Bob
Evans next door Kevin said he liked Bob Evans so we walked next door Kevin had a
breakfast of coffee and orange juice and french toast we took about an hour to eat breakfast relax and talk Kevin
talked a lot about computer games and Dungeons and Dragons Tom kahy expressed an interest in Dungeons and Dragons and
Kevin explained in detail about using the book being the dragon master and being a player he said a lot of the kids
asked him to be Dragon master he added that it was tough to be a player after you have been a dragon Master because
you knew the book he said that a dragon Master had to come up with a lot of obstacles when players had been Dragon
Masters Kevin also talked about video games and Nintendo he was proud of the fact that
he had mastered Super Mario 3 he said that it took him like 3 hours to complete the first time but that after
he played it once he could do it in about 20 minutes he said he played Nintendo a lot but that it was really
his brother's game he jokingly said that he has to get along with his little brother or his brother won't let him
play Kevin said he realized he was a little old for some of these video games but said that they were a great
Challenge and a lot of fun we took our time and walked back to the motel Tom kensky went to prepare for the polygraph
and Kevin and I began just talking about things in general I was working to have
him very relaxed for the test I asked Kevin if he felt pretty good about taking the polygraph and he did we
discussed again calling his mother and he repeated that he wanted to wait until after the polygraph Kevin asked if we
would be done after the polygraph or if we could talk a little and I said it was
up to him and he asked if I could get some more pop and make sure that we had cigarettes so that we could take some
time to talk after the test he said he already missed his classes and basically the whole day was spent and if we needed
to talk about that we could Kevin also said he'd like to talk a while before he took the polygraph by now he was about
10:00 a.m. and we took talked until about noon during that time we discussed the incident again we talked about how
Kevin learned about the incident and who his friends are I asked who his best friend was and Kevin mentioned a letter
he was writing to John hilard he explained that he was writing the letter but probably wouldn't send it because he
expected to see him in a couple of weeks he added that in the letter he told JN how well things are going at College he
also said he wrote about his roommate and his roommate's girlfriend he said he wrote about her PDA public displays of
affection Kevin added that she didn't really bother him but that he just kind of jokingly said those kind of things
because people expected to hear that from him we then got to talking about computers he said he had an Apple
computer at home and had just learned to write and print on it but that was about
all he added that he had to give the computer to his sister a ninth grader at Shaker before he left to come down to
Columbus I then asked him when he had come down to Columbus he said he brought all of his stuff on the 9th of September
to try out for band he said that he changed his mind about band left his stuff in the dormatory and went home I
asked him why he changed his mind and he said it was a lot of things he said that
he was nervous about being away from home that most of the kids had been down there practicing for two weeks he added
that band also took a lot of time and was only worth two credits he also said he was never really
into marching band that he enjoyed music but not marching he seemed nervous discussing
band and changed the subject he mentioned a couple of girls that had come up to him in classes and talked to
him he added that they just came up to him and that he did not have to talk first he went on to talk about how glad
he was to be away from Shaker he was excited to have a whole new life and was glad to be away from the problems he had
in Shaker he felt the kids in Shaker were tough and related that he had a lot of
friends but that they make him feel like an outcast I asked if he was referring to the GG GC Kevin laugh and we then
talked about the GGC girls and boys and about prom night he brought up the after
prom party and told me that he has a tendency to build up his expectations and that he really felt angry about what
the girls did to him he brought up araba and said that he basically hung out there for the summer I asked him how Dan
and Lisa fit in he described Dan as a best friend of his for a long time and that during the time that Lisa was in
town he and Dan spent a lot of time together he went on to say between Lisa being back in town and Dan being in the
hospital that he really hadn't seen Dan much lately I then asked Kevin what clothes he brought back from Columbus
for his last week here I explained that we did not find any of his clothes when we were at his house he said all of his
clothes were in the clothes shoot I told him the kids all remember him wearing one set of clothes he said most of the
week he wore a skateboard or t-shirt blue jeans and his moccasins he said on the coolness nights he wore a blue plaid
flannel shirt he asked if that matched what we knew and I said basically I thought for a minute then asked if he
saw Dan the day Dan got out of the hospital Kevin explained that even though he considered Dan a best friend
that he had not felt it important to try to get in touch with Dan or to talk to him the day that he got out Kevin said
he was aware that everybody at the high school was excited to see Dan and that Lisa and Dan had been around together
and that Lisa was very excited to see him we talk next about Tex Ken Workman Kevin was in a very talkative mood
during this time period And I was basically listening and letting him talk around noon Kevin said that he felt good
that he was ready to take the polygraph I left him in room 520 I told him that I'd to go to Tom ky's room and talk to
him about setting up for the test at this time I learned that we had a problem and had to be out of the room by
2 p.m. Jim broches had made arrangements for another room if needed also while Kevin was waiting for me in 520 I called
Jim Wright from room 5:116 I discussed my concern that Kevin felt safe here and was prolonging the
interview I felt that Kevin did not want the interview to end he felt that Kevin
felt safe with me we agreed that we had to confront him and end the interview Arrangements were also made with Tom
kahky to run the polygraph and that if it came up clearing Kevin young of any involvement that he should discuss that
with Kevin and that if it came back with obvious deception that Tom kahky should
confront him with the deception and be prepared for the fact that Kevin might look like he's about ready to admit and
that at that point that Tom kensky should stop the confrontation and leave the room and let Kevin think for a few
minutes until I returned to the room to complete the confrontation I then went back and talked to Kevin and told him
that either we had to be done by 2: p.m. or that we had to moveed to another room
I gave him the option of taking the test right away or having lunch first while Tom kensky changed rooms and set up his
equipment in the other room Kevin thought lunch sounded good and asked if we could go for pizza specifically Pizza
Hut if there was one around I went to ask Tom kensky to change rooms and Kevin asked me to get some more coke and
cigarettes in case we needed to talk after the polygraph we again talked about calling
home and Kevin said he wanted to wait until after the polygraph test I saw Tom gansky and return to the room Kevin and
I then walked to the front desk asked if there was a Pizza Hut and got directions
to One nearby on High Street we agreed to split a pizza and Kevin ordered a medium pepperoni pan pizza we took our
time and again talked about college and college life and being away from home and he talked about how it was scary it
was basically casual conversation Kevin kept coming back to talking about his friends from Shaker and how good it felt
to be away from Shaker we returned to the motel about 1:30 p.m. and went to room 4
21 as we walked there Kevin said that if the test didn't work well he would be willing to spend another night he added
that he felt very comfortable talking and felt confident that if we talked long enough that we would be able to
resolve everything when we got to the room Tom kahy was waiting there for us Kevin was very relaxed he asked if he
could use the bathroom first because of the large Coke he had for lunch Kevin went into the bathroom I met briefly
with Tom and told him I thought Kevin was very relaxed and ready for the polygraph when Kevin came out of the
bathroom he was noticeably more tense than he had just been moments earlier he was all tensed up and rubbing his hands
together nervously I asked Kevin if he still wanted to take the test and he said he
was ready to go I wished Kevin good luck and told him I would return after the test at a few minutes before 3 p.m. when
the polygraph test was complete Tom kensky left Kevin by himself in room 421 and came to room 516 to discuss the
results he said that he ran two tests that he had clear deceptions on most of the questions dealing with Lisa that he
confronted Kevin with the deception and that Kevin got tears in his eyes but said nothing Tom kensy said he had
confronted Kevin directly about his involvement with Lisa and Kevin again said I didn't do it at about 300 p.m.
Jim broch and I went into the room Kevin was sitting by the polygraph machine on
a chair with a concerned almost teary look in his eyes I asked Kevin if he remembered Deputy Chief broches and
Kevin said he did I asked Kevin if he remembered Deputy Chief brochas and Kevin said he did I told Kevin that due
to the pressure on this incident that they had sent deputy chief down to Columbus deputy chief broches then left
the room I asked Kevin if he minded if I open the drapes and he said that that would be great
I sat down directly in front of him got very close and told him I was concerned I sat down directly in front of him got
very close and told him that I was concerned and a little scared about what happened he said he knew the machine
couldn't lie but he didn't understand why the machine was doing this to him I paused for a couple minutes and began to
slowly explain to Kevin the situation as I saw it I told him that if he really was not involved in what happened to
Lisa that things would work out I then told him I was afraid that he was not telling the truth I told him I really
wanted a chance to help him I repeated that the person who did this to Lisa needed me both as a friend and as
someone to present objectively to the prosecutor exactly what happened I repeated my feeling that this person
really needed help that this person really didn't mean to hurt Lisa and that this person didn't deserve to spend his
life in prison or to be executed I told Kevin I had a number of concerns about his involvement with Lisa I told him I
wanted to go over them with him so that he understood why the pressure was on us
to resolve his involvement I told Kevin that I had concerns about how he found out about Lisa and his reaction to her
death I explained that he said text told him that Lisa had been pulled off her bike hid in the head murdered and raped
yet kids at araba told us that by 1:30 in the afternoon that he Kevin had been insisting that she had been stabbed and
had not been raped I told Kevin that we didn't understand why watching the 5:00 news listing Dan as a suspect made it
obvious to everyone that Dan didn't do it I told Kevin I was worried that he kept saying text did it yet he told us
that Tex wanted to kill Dan for doing it I told Kevin that I was worried that he
had made repeated threats against Dan and Lisa I told Kevin that I was worried about his relationships with girls I
read from his journals quote I'm in the popular crowd but I don't like them or I
speak on a lonely Saturday evening or my luck will change for the better in the next few months between high school and
college each time he asked for and I showed him the paper that I was reading from I told him I thought the affection
between Dan and Lisa bothered him and I read again from his papers quote it really pisses me off when I see couples
paired off I am worth absolutely nothing he replied that that had all changed and
I reminded him what he had said about his roommate's girlfriend's PDA public display of affection I told him I had
concerns about his fantasies with girls and again read regarding prom Knight quote it is not a bash it is three girls
and myself and they are ditching their boyfriends so they can spend the night with
me I asked if he really thought they were ditching their boyfriends on prom night he continued to look at me but did
not respond I told him some of his thoughts bothered me like I will will kill all undesir bles I must I am hated
by virtually all my classmates males think I'm a loser and psychotic a scar on the school's mere existence females
despise me as if I was the ugliest person on this planet which of course I am I read the one final thought of his
quote If I Ever Lose Control of myself withdraw into an alternative world and let animal instincts take over I handed
Kevin a copy of that passage that was I handed Kevin a copy of that passage that was found at his house
paused then told Kevin that you can't stay in this alternative world that the truth must come
out I told Kevin that I had enjoyed the time with him that it had been a long day and that I had to get back to the
real world I told Kevin that he had to get back to the real world too I paused for a minute and told Kevin that I felt
that he had a number of options I told him that I felt confident that if he was truthfully not involved that things
would work out however I also told him that if he was involved in any way in what happened to Lisa that he could
never Escape it I said I felt that until he shared the truth with someone who could understand him that there would be
something deep down inside him that would never let him get away from this I told him that until this was resolved he
couldn't go back to Shaker because everybody in Shaker would think of him as being the suspect I added that he
couldn't go back to college because everything in college would Now remind him of Lisa I told him he couldn't go
back to anything until he told the truth I told him he had to clear his conscience and tell the truth Kevin
reacted he leaned forward he got real tense and he looked me right in the eyes with tears welling up in his eyes and
deep emotion in his voice he said he could have told me he did it spent a couple years in the hospital then got on
with his life life but he said quote I've got to tell you the truth and this is the truth and if I don't tell you
this I don't know how I could ever live with myself he paused for a couple minutes then slowly he said I'm scared I
feel suicidal I have nothing to live for I feel more suicidal now than I ever have since I was hospitalized 2 years
ago he said that he quote needed to be in the hospital he said that for the first time in his life he realized that
he really needed help and that he needed to be in the hospital he said he couldn't go anywhere but a hospital I
told him that I thought he ought to call his parents and talk to them about getting in a hospital he said no he
couldn't call home he said no he couldn't call home because his mom wouldn't believe him and she wouldn't
let him go into the hospital he added that he really needed to be in a hospital in a way from his parents he
thought for a minute and asked if he could call his doctor I told him we could we walked over to the phone he had a
card in his wallet for Dr Melvin chavenson he gave me the number and I dialed it and charged it to the city
credit card Kevin asked if he could talk to his doctor privately and I agreed I started to walk out of the room until
Kevin told me he got the answering machine he left a message on the answering machine at about 4:10 p.m. and
said something to the effect of this is Kevin I need to talk to you I'll call you back in a little bit Kevin and I
talked for a little while and I told him that I thought he should leave a message
with a number for the doctor to call Kevin felt confident his doctor would call during his next break between
patients from 4:50 p.m. to 5:00 p.m. so we left a second message at about 4:20 p.m. while we were waiting we discussed
a number of the points we discussed I again asked Kevin what he thought should happen to the person that did this to
Lisa he replied that the person should kill himself because he had nothing to live for and if the person didn't kill
himself then he should be killed Kevin told me he really had nothing to live for and just needed to sit he sat
on the bed and was silent for a while he talked a little more about making friends and how hard it was he said he
had a deep pain inside and that it was so deep he couldn't tell me he added that he wanted to tell me what it was
but that he needed help and he couldn't say it he then looked at me and said he wasn't even sure of what it was as of
5:05 p.m. Dr chavenson had not called so so I called Shaker PD and got detective
CLA as he was leaving the station I asked him to go knock on the door of Dr shavon's office 23360 sh Grand Boulevard
sweet 105 Dr Shavon finally called about 5:15 Kevin answered the phone but asked
if he could talk privately I waited outside the door after a few minutes Kevin came to the door he told me that
Dr chavenson could make arrangements to get him help in the hospital however Dr Shavon told him he had to call his
parents something about insurance Kevin then asked if he could call his dad instead of his mom because
his mom wouldn't believe him Kevin tried but got no answer for his dad Kevin hesitated and didn't want to call his
mom I told Kevin that I felt he knew what he wanted and if he was strong enough I was sure his parents would
support him Kevin asked me if I would visit him and help him through this and I promised I would I again told him he
really needed to call his mom because I couldn't stay with him forever and I couldn't leave him alone he finally
called his mom and I again stepped outside the room Kevin came to the door after a
minute and asked for a pen and paper after another minute he returned to the door with tears in his eyes he said he
didn't know what to do that his mother didn't want him to talk to me and wanted him to call an
attorney he showed me the paper with the attorney's name and number on it I told
him the decision was his but suggested that if he wanted wanted his parents help that he should follow their advice
Kevin then called the attorney they talked for a couple minutes then Kevin came outside the room and told me that
the attorney wanted to talk to me the attorney asked me where Kevin was and I told him we were in room 421 of the
Romana Inn on ol and Tangi River Road the attorney also asked me not to ask Kevin any more questions he then spoke
to Kevin again when Kevin got off the phone he told me he was to meet the attorney out front and that I was not
even to walk him out Kevin with tears in his eyes asked if this meant I couldn't
visit him in the hospital and I simply told him that I needed to make those arrangements with his parents and
attorney I then walked Kevin to the elevator he gave me a hug as we waited for the elevator he went down to the
first floor I went up to the fifth floor and prepared to drive back to Shaker [Music]
Heights [Music] after the detectives were unable to force a confession from Kevin young at
Ohio State University they returned to Shaker Heights more determined than ever that they had the right man they needed
a real expert to help them break Kevin the next time they spoke enter renowned psychologist Dr Murray myON a professor
at Syracuse University he agrees to consult with them on the case but first he has some
questions about Dan dford yeah I understand that and and indeed that's a very powerful Alibi um
that the father indicates that Dan was in fact in his room and that they both heard the screams together yes that's
that's very powerful there is some I must say that we we had some difficulty still however
with Dan subsequent Behavior he after they go out to the edge of the property and and all go back into the home
apparently satisfied that the source of the scream has left the area or whatever
and that they can't find anything unusual apparently Dan reexit the house to find the bicycle and then in fact
without telling his parents um calls 911 on his own uh to report what he believes to be now
suspicious circumstances but then when the parents hear the pro what outside on the lawn
you know and they're distraught and here are all these police vehicles the crime
scene being established Dan goes to bed right falls asleep uh while the parents are waiting
for the plane closed detective to come in and interview them huh right I found that I I found that unusual um and
somewhat disconcerting but what we decided decided here was that dick and I decided that well that's not that's
academic right because it's not Dan that we're going to be interrogating it's it's Kevin and whether or not he's the
guy or not we want to give the full shot to to use the best psychological coercion we
[Music] can [Music] Angie's List is now Angie and we've heard a lot of theories about why I
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Shaker Heights - Episode 5: The Crucible

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

In the early morning hours of Friday, September 14, 1990, 16 year old Lisa Pruett was stabbed to death in Shaker Heights. This is a 6 part true crime series. The bulk of the story comes from actual police interviews. As the story unfolds, ask yourself, who do you think killed Lisa Pruett?Directed and produced by True Crime Garage. Co-produced by The Philosophy of Crime and narration written by James Renner

A BIG Thank You to all of our voice actors!Jordan Bonaparte - www.NightTimePodcast.com (http://www.nighttimepodcast.com/) Tyler Allen - www.MindsofMadnessPodcast.com (http://www.mindsofmadnesspodcast.com/) Jessica Bettencourt - True Crime Garage & Scene of the Crime Podcasts Mike Bussing - Executive Producer of Truth & Justice with Bob RuffBob Ruff - www.TruthandJusticePod.com (http://www.truthandjusticepod.com/) Tim Pilleri - www.CrawlSpace-Media.com (http://www.crawlspace-media.com/) Aaron H - www.GenWhyPod.com (http://www.genwhypod.com/) & www.FramedPod.com (http://www.framedpod.com/) Maggie Freleng - www.MaggieFreleng.com (http://www.maggiefreleng.com/) Bill Huffman - My Passion Case and Who killed Podcasts - www.SloBurnMedia.com (http://www.sloburnmedia.com/) Morgan - The Captain & Morgan Podcast Jessica Yuan - www.AsianMadnessPod.Podbean.com (http://www.asianmadnesspod.podbean.com/) Melissa Lee - Victimology PodcastScotty Boombox - www.ScottyBoombox.com (http://www.scottyboombox.com/) Jesse P Pollock - Author of “Death on the Devil’s Teeth” & “The Acid King”James Renner - www.PhilosophyOfCrime.com (http://www.philosophyofcrime.com/)

The full archive of True Crime Garage is available on the Stitcher listening app - for FREE. Our show “Off the Record” is only on Stitcher Premium. For a FREE month of listening go to http://stitcherpremium.com/truecrimegarage and use promo code GARAGE

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Brief Summary

The episode details the investigation of Lisa Puit's murder and Kevin Young's psychological struggles during police questioning.

Key points

The Crucible: A Tragic Murder. The story of Lisa Puit's murder unfolds, revealing the dark aftermath and accusations against Kevin Young.
Kevin Young's Life Forever Changed. Kevin Young's life trajectory is altered drastically after being named a suspect in a murder case.
Kevin's Guilt. Kevin expresses deep guilt over Lisa's death, feeling he should have intervened.
Punishment Views. Kevin shares his harsh views on punishment for the crime.
The Search for Truth. The investigator seeks Kevin's help to understand the suspect's mindset.
Defensive Denial. Kevin adamantly denies involvement in Lisa's death.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

He will never hold down a real job or have any long relationships.

Describing Kevin Young's bleak future.

3:35WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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