Mindhunter /// Part 4 /// 871 | Forensic Files

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page. And Colonel, that's enough of the BS. All right, everybody. Gather around,
grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. [Music] We left things off at the interrogation
in Altuna. Bill Tench has some questions for one of our murder suspects. Holden Ford is recording this questioning.
Tench is getting verbally aggressive with Benjamin or Benji. He is or claims to be Beverly Jean's boyfriend. Tench
wants to know why would you do that to Beverly Gene? A fractured jaw, two black eyes, 14 stab wounds, and as we said,
the list goes on. Then they interview Benji's brother-in-law, Frank. He's the one with the police record. Benji breaks
and starts to confess. Frank doesn't confess. In the car, Tench and Ford are discussing the case. Tench says, "I hate
Frank, the brother-in-law, but it's always the boyfriend, and when you're lost, you play the percentages." Tench
passes on a dinner invitation from his wife Nancy to invite Ford to dinner at the Tench house. and Holden Ford's going
to accept the offer and bring his girlfriend with him to this dinner. Now, at the dinner, we learn that the tenious
son, Brian, who is adopted, is going to be a mysterious and complicated character. Nancy says that they are not
allowed to know where he was or who the parents were when they adopted him and stating that they have no idea what the
child experienced. Back in Altuna, Dr. Wendy Carr with Holden Ford and tow describes to the district attorney what
exactly happened in the Beverly Jean case. The DA ultimately goes easy on Frank, who agrees to testify against
Benji. Benji likely getting the death penalty, according to the DA, while Frank, the far more violent offender,
gets just 5 years in prison. >> Yeah. and they're very upset with his outcome. But I think what they realized
is they can do all the research and all the studying they want and they can help
law enforcement as much as they can, but at the end of the day, they're not completely in charge of the results.
>> That's exactly right. Now, in real life, Dr. Anne Burgess is absolutely fantastic
at analyzing and understanding postoffense behavior. For those that read her book, A Killer by Design, you
already know that she is equally as brilliant at predicting postoffense behavior, which is extremely critical to
any investigation. When predicted correctly, this will always lead to both detection and apprehension of the person
or persons responsible. Back at the office, Dr. Carr says we need to focus on methodology and explains the way that
each killer kills is unique. She recommends that the boys go to Oregon to talk with convicted serial killer Jerry
Brudos, the trophy keeper. and she educates the boys about Jerry's history and his crime. So, not just a serial
killer, but Jerry Brudos is also a necroile. In fact, far more serial killers are necroiles than the general
public is even aware of. Brutos is known as the lust killer and the shoe fetish slayer who committed the kidnap, rape,
and murder of four young women between 1968 and 1969 in Salem, Oregon. All of Brudo's murders were committed inside
either his car or the basement or garage workshop of the two homes in which he resided in during the period that he
committed these murders. and each victim was killed by strangulation. Several victims were photographed before and or
after death and three of his victims underwent post-mortem dismemberment. Everything that the character Wendy Carr
says about Jerry Brudos, we know to be true in real life, including that all of his murders took place after he was
married and had two kids. So, something that can be applied to the hunt for the BTK killer as well. Not all of these
evil bastards are loners. Some of them are in fact family men. >> But also, he is an ogre just like our
buddy Edmund Kemper. >> You know, if this were to play out over five seasons of 8 to 10 episodes each,
what I what I can kind of see here, while these are all actually people that that were interviewed by Douglas and
wrestler at one time, I should say and or wrestler at one time. You're seeing traits that share traits of Dennis Rider
along the way. They're not all of the traits, but some of them. And like here we see with Brudos, all of his murders
took place after he was married and had two kids. Uh Bill Tench only smokes two cigarettes during this episode. And it
closes out with the song I don't like Mondays, a song by Irish newwave band, The Boom Town Rats. If you want to be
fully entertained for 3 minutes and 40 seconds, pull up the music video on YouTube. It's It's an interesting one.
The song was a number one single in the UK singles charts for four weeks during the summer of 1979. Longtime listeners
of our show, Off the Record, know that this song is about the Cleveland Elementary School shooting that took
place on January 29th, 1979 at Grover Cleveland Elementary School in San Diego. The principal of that school and
a custodian were killed. Eight children and a police officer were injured. The shooter was a 16-year-old girl, Brenda
Spencer, who lived in a house across the street from the school. She was charged
as an adult. She plead guilty to two counts of murder and assault with a deadly weapon and was sentenced to life
in prison with a chance of parole after 25 years. And as of this taping, she is still in prison. And that's a whole lot
of Mondays sitting in prison there, honey. Check out friend of the show in Lee Hunt's book about that true crime
story titled, of course, I don't like Mondays. Well, not only is he a great writer, but he is also one funny dude.
>> Yeah. Yes, he is. Um, he we we recently traded uh photos via text. Um, I sent
him one of me >> flipping him the bird, to which he replied, giving me the finger right
back. So, that's where our friendship stands at this moment. >> Hey, better the bird than a [ __ ]
Meanwhile, yeah, if we were in the same room and there were there were beers available, we would be uh arm in-armm
talking through through the afternoon and evening. Episode seven of Mine Hunter opens with
once again our ADT serviceman in the scene. He's laying out his clothes and a what appears to be a kill kit on a bed.
And I say clothes, but you can see prominently on the bed is a coat, a large winter coat, which we will later
see him wearing that coat and have some items from that kill kit in his possession. Next, we go to Salem, Oregon
to visit the lust killer, Jerry Brudos. Brutus claims that his confessions to those four murders were all coerced and
that he is innocent. And just as Dr. Wendy Carr says in the show, he denies even when confronted with evidence.
>> Even though he's a ogre like Edmund Keer, Edmund wants to be a part of the group. He admires
law enforcement. >> Yes. >> But not the case here. >> No. No. Keer wants to be chummy with the
with police and detectives and almost seems flattered that the FBI would want to visit him and talk with him where
Jerry Brudos is like, >> "Cool, but what are you guys going to do for me?" Like, "This better be
entertaining or worth my time or you guys can go fly a kite." >> Tench >> does not find the visit to be useful at
all because again, he's not he is not admitting to the murder. So, what details are you going to glean from the
conversation when he won't even admit that he did it, which is the exact opposite of Keer, who not only admits
what he's done, he can articulate in great detail the what and why and how of his crimes. The flip of this though,
Captain, is that Dr. Carr does find the visit to be useful. Now, we we should cover Brutus at some time. He shares a
lot of similarities to Keer and Keer's crimes, and some of his other crimes are very weird. The way that he chose to
carry them out and cover them up. The next time we see the Road Feds go back to Salem to visit Brut again, they will
be better prepared. In fact, they bring a pack of cigarettes, which he requested
in the first visit. And to his surprise and enjoyment, they bring him a pair of women's shoes as well,
>> which he jerks off to. >> Right in front of the Yes. Right in front of the federal agents and the
guard. >> Yeah. I mean, some people could say he's the honey badger. >> He don't give a [ __ ]
>> Well, Wendy Carr does not like these tactics, even though they even though they got him to open up a
little bit. Uh, so you know, and that's Holden Ford's whole angle with a lot of this stuff. Like, I'll do whatever it
takes to get these evil guys to talk because he believes in the long run that good will prevail and the more that they
know, the better equipped they will be to take these guys down, apprehend them, and save lives. So, the three, Dr. car
and the two agents. Ultimately, they just end up disagreeing on how to learn from Brutus. Now, we go
back to the tench house once again. This is when the babysitter quits after she tells Nancy and Bill that she found a
Polaroid photo of a tortured murder victim under little Brian's bed. This is something that the the child he snuck
into Bill Tench's office, home office there, and Tench has been working around the clock. He's bringing cases home with
him, bringing case files home with him. And this is something that Brian took from one of those case files. But this
also shows, I think, the behind the scenes of a law enforcement. He Bill has to deal with the sickest individuals on
earth. And even though he apologizes for bringing this home, I think there's a part of him that's glad that his wife
saw this and saw these things and and when they're in argument, he's throwing the pictures at her cuz I think he's
trying to show her, do you see the sickness and the evil that I'm dealing with and you expect me to be this normal
person all the time? Well, and he's fed up that she keeps pointing out to him that you never talk to me about your
work. You never tell me what you're doing. You never tell me about the cases that you're working. And that's where
he's like, "Oh, you you really want to see what I'm what I have to work on, what I'm forced to work on." And that's
also a pretty aggressive way of expl of of proving to her that hey maybe lay off
the uh I never talk about work. This see these are many many reasons why I don't
want to talk about work. >> Well th this is the same thing I do to my cat. When my cat won't stop asking me
about the podcast. I start throwing pictures in my cat's face. There there are some detectives, I've heard more
than one detective say this or write about this where they say, you know, when I come home from work and maybe
some FBI agents as well, when I come home from work, I take my shoes off and I leave them on the steps to the garage
or to the on the steps to the back door or on the porch that I don't want to walk in my my detective shoes while I'm
at home. I don't, you know, when when it's time to go to work, I put those shoes on and I turn it on. And when it's
time to come home and be with my family, I take those shoes off and I shut it off. I like that they show this part,
and we'll see this with Holden Ford a little bit, too, when him and the girlfriend start getting into
problems with their relationship. that a lot of the problems that they're having,
Bill Tench at his home with his wife and holding forward with his girlfriend most
of the time at her uh apartment or or rented house that a lot of these problems, the issues in the relationship
stem from their jobs, the stressfulness of their jobs, and also the stress of knowing when I'm trying to track down a
serial killer, the longer it takes me or any mistake I make >> just means more people end up dead. So
there's there's always a ticking clock. There's always a clock and that clock when it hits that hour,
it ends with another innocent victim. And what we also learned from Edund Keer though is there's a bunch of them out
there. So there's a ticking clock, but there's a ticking clock on every killer that they haven't caught yet. And I also
wonder because most if not all of these killers or are sexually motivated if this would affect affect their uh sex
life with their partners. As far as the stresses of the job and the in how it can affect the home life, it this is
discussed in Douglas's books uh obsession and also in his book Journey into Darkness, but I think it's better
explained and explored in Robert Wrestller's book, Whoever Fights Monsters. >> We should do a deep dive on that book.
Back at the office, Bill Tinch calls Detective McGraw. This is about the Ada Jeffre case. We talked about this Ada
Jeffre case more in our episodes one and two of of this series that we're currently doing. This is the unsolved
case of the the mother and son that were killed. And I think that they're they're
attempting to or at least planting the seed that this might be a reference to BTK's first killing, which we know at
least the one he confessed to the OTO murders was much different than the Ada Jeff case is depicted in Mind Hunter.
But this is Bill calling Detective McGraw to say that, you know, he had been looking at those photos, the crime
scene photos that he had been taking home. And he noticed that the knots on the liatures binding Ada Jeff are
nautical. And he points out the obvious to the detective that Fairfield, Iowa, where
these murders took place, is landlocked, thus shrinking your suspect pool. >> Right. probably quite greatly. I would
guess most of most of episode 8 is about the nickel for a tickle school principal.
>> Yeah. >> A principal who is tickling the students feet >> probably also smelling them.
>> That's unsettling. Holden is Holden is worried about escalation. So, what we've seen so far is the team
has learned that there is a natural progression and escalation to deviant behavior. After studying Jerry Brudos's
crimes in history, they understand that he first started off stealing women's undergarments and then that escalated to
the extremes of abduction, rape, and murder and other extreme depraved and deviant behavior with multiple victims.
The tickle principal, Roger Wade, as named on the show, is real and is discussed in one of Douglas's books,
although I cannot confirm that that is his real name. This is when things take a bit of a turn because we get Holden,
who stumbles onto a very interesting technique. He goes back to interview Brudos and Tench is not going to go
along with this. He he doesn't want to. He's having his problems at home. He's not traveling all the way back out to
Oregon to interview a guy that he thinks is not adding to any of their studies. That they're not learning anything from
Jerry Brudos. While Brudos is not willing to admit to the killings, the interviews with Brudos are not working.
While Dr. Wendy Carr finds them fascinating from an academic standpoint. Holton and Bill would like to use the
interviews of these serial killers to better learn how to identify and apprehend these types of killers. Brudos
on the one-on-one with Holden Ford tells him he has a lot of ideas about the murders and about the killer who
actually committed the murders. This goes down this road that is completely fascinating to me. This is a technique
that has proved to be very valuable. Most notably, this technique was used on Ted Bundy to learn his methods and find
more victims. Read Ted Bundy Conversations with a Killer, the Death Row Interviews, or watch it. The audio
tapes were made into a four-part series on Netflix with the title Conversations with a Killer, the Ted Bundy Tapes. Also
read one of my absolute favorite true crime books, The Riverman. Ted Bundy and I hunt for the Green River Killer by the
late and great Robert Keell. At the same time here, Captain, they are interviewing, they being the FBI team,
are interviewing and hoping to hire a fourth member of the team. I found it intriguing that one of the
gentlemen that they interview is Bill, a detective from Atlanta, who obviously we're going to meet Bill again. While he
doesn't get the job, we meet Bill again in season 2. >> And he essentially works with the FBI in
season two. >> The character name that gets the job is Greg Smith. His character is fun. He's a
very religious man. Um, and takes a backseat often at times to Bill Tench and Holden Ford.
>> Well, isn't doesn't it come out that he has some family connections and that's
maybe why he was hired? >> Yes. So, their their superior is agent Shepard. And Shephard says that Greg
Smith's he he knows Greg Smith's father that they went to Dartmouth together. And so he says it in a way of like
suggesting like this is my this is my suggestion of who you should hire and you know how it goes when you have a
boss. Usually that that doesn't mean you have an option. That means you go with the boss's pick there. And I had a I
would like to hear from if if the listeners know and can sell it to me. I would like to know who they think Greg
Smith is. I I looked and looked at several different FBI agents that of note and I couldn't I couldn't sort out
if if he's supposed to be representing one of those those real life agents >> or maybe he's amalgamation of multiple
agents. Episode 9 begins with the ADT man dressed in the coat that he had laid out with a stocking over his head.
Presumably, he is in the home of a soontobe victim. [Music] [Music] All right, we are back. Cheers, mates.
cans in the air. >> Cheers to you ladies and germs. ADT man in the home and he's not there to work
on the security system. He's there and as said dressed to kill. He is waiting and waiting and waiting, but the victim
does not return home and he gets very frustrated and he leaves. Now, this is absolutely real. We know that Dennis
Rder intended to kill Anna Williams, aged 63, in 1979. She escaped death by returning home much, much later than he
had expected. Raider explains during his confession that he became obsessed with
Williams and was absolutely livid. Those were his words, quote, "Absolutely livid
when she evaded him." He recalled spending hours waiting at Williams' home, but becoming impatient and leaving
when she did not return from visiting with friends. Williams ultimately got lucky there. There in the scene, he is
drinking from a glass, right? A a glass that belongs to the victim. It's was in the
home when he got there. I like how they're sneaking these things in because this is another one of Dennis Rder's
dumb things that he would do at every crime scene and then later blame the cops for not finding it. He's like, I
drink I would drink he would drink from a glass, >> right? >> Leave his fingerprints on it and but but
he would put the glass back in the cupboard. Then later, of course, years later, blame the the cops that, "Oh, I I
gave you this clue and you you never found it." Next in the FBI car, we see Holden in Tench. They're discussing
Richard Speck and the Holden Ford character compares mass murderer Richard Spec to a famous movie star and he's
showing Bill Tench articles about the killer that he had clipped over the years. In fact, he he had had them prior
to his job working for the BSU. Well, this guy is pure evil. After this scene, they're off to interview Spec. Richard
Spec killed eight student nurses in their Chicago residence via stabbing, strangling, slashing their throats, or a
combination of all three. This on the night of July 13th, early morning hours of July 14th, 1966.
A ninth potential victim survived by hiding underneath a bed. Richard Spec was sentenced to death. However, his
sentence was reduced to 400 to 1,200 years imprisonment and this was changed in 1972.
This was later reduced again to 100 to 300 years in prison. Richard Spec died of a heart attack while incarcerated at
Stateville Correctional Center on the eve of his 50th birthday. probably a side effect of all of the booze,
cocaine, and steroids that he somehow got a hold of and consumed while in prison.
>> Well, one of the things I think are interesting is all these serial killers are different, and we see them in
different locations, different prisons, and the viewer wouldn't know what that prison was like or not. like is it a
accurate representation of that prison or is the director of Minehunter having these prisons to reflect more
about the killer? Does that make any sense? >> It makes absolute sense and I I think
that it might be a fairly accurate depiction of some of the prisons. Some of them are are very similar during the
show. You know, I would I would think I kind of think of the Monty Rissell prison and the Jerry Brutus prison seem
very similar, but the flip of that is the prison where you have Richard Spec seems very chaotic,
>> right? >> And then where we see Ed Keer throughout the series is very buttoned up that that
facility. And I think part of that has to do with the facility themselves. And I would think that it's a somewhat
accurate depiction with those two because one of their locations, but also keep in mind Keer's in Vakavville. It's
essentially a a state facility hospital, corrections hospital, >> right, >> where Speck is in this this very chaotic
Stateville Correctional Center, and he's he's in there with a lot of really bad people. While incarcerated at the
Stateville Correctional Center, Richard Spec was given the nickname Birdman. This was after the film Birdman of
Alcatraz. This because he kept the pair of sparrows that flew into his cell. We,
as we pointed out in our previous episodes, Richard Spec was not a model prisoner by any means. He was often
caught with drugs or distilled moonshine. Punishment for such infractions never stopped him because
>> he would laugh at them. He'd get in trouble for something. He's like, "What are you going to do to me? I'm in here
for 1,200 years." Real piece of [ __ ] >> They discuss with Spec how he had told
the victims that he only wanted to rob them but ended up killing them. Now, this too goes back to insights into BTK.
As we know, BTK would often use this lie to calm his victims to gain control of them and tie them up. During the
interview on the show, Richard Spec throws his pet sparrow into a fan, killing it in front of the agents. So,
this is somewhat true. Okay, this is somewhat true. It's not true that he threw the sparrow into the fan in front
of John Douglas or Robert Wrestler. In Douglas's book, Mine Hunter, he talks about this incident and he says
that Spec revealed to him, Douglas, in an interview that he had found an injured sparrow that had flown in
through one of the broken windows and nursed it back to health. So, that part is true. And when the bird was healthy
enough to stand, he tied a string around its leg and had it perched up on his shoulder. But he had Speck had a
disagreement with a guard, not with Douglas. And when this guard told Speck that you
can't have pets, you're not allowed to have pets. This is when Richard Spec walked over to a spinning fan and threw
the small bird in and of course horrified the guard and the guard says something like, "I thought you liked
that bird. You know, you took care of it." Spec says, "I did, but if I can't have it, no one can." Now, into insights
into Speck give the team the idea to further explore, organize, and disorganize killers, as Richard Speck is
very much a disorganized killer. And then they dive into the differences of spree killers, which is Richard Spec
versus serial killers, which is Monty Rissell, Jerry Brudos, Ed Keer. During this conversation on the show, they're
kind of loosely coining the terms along the way of spree killer and serial killer. The agents are then called out
to Adairville, Georgia to investigate the rape and murder of 12-year-old Lisa Don Porter. In the episode, they are
notified by the FBI Atlanta field office. There actually was a a case that's that this mirrors and they used
the killer's real name, but they they did not use the victim's name here. So, this is a real life case.
>> I do believe they changed some of the details of of the crime as well. >> Yeah. So, there was Daryl Jean Dver. I
would say Deor, but I think Holden Ford says Dver on the show. That's the killer's real name. He murdered a girl
named Mary Francis Stoner on November 30th, 1979 in Adarville, Georgia. He was convicted of her murder in November of
1983. This is after several mistrials. So, it kind of drugg on through the court
system, but he was eventually convicted of that. and he was executed by electric
chair in May of 1995. Now, Douglas, John Douglas devotes an entire chapter to this case in his book.
The chapter is titled Everyone Has a Rock. But I think this case is also interesting because as we see serial
killers seem to escalate, we're seeing an escalation and their knowledge of these crimes and these criminals. So it
seems like they're getting better as they go along. >> Well, and this is at least as depicted
on the show, this is all sort of tactics and strategies that they learned from talking to serial killers, right?
because they talk to Keer, he's an open book. They talk to Brutus, he he doesn't
want to tell them anything. But they learn ways to get Brutus to talk. It just like with the the very simple part
of bringing Monty Rristle the Big Red soda that he requested and now he's willing to talk. And so we see this kind
of play out here. I was going to read some excerpts from that from that chapter in Douglas's book, but I I don't
know if I do it any justice. I really think that people got to read that from start to finish there.
>> Right. >> Cigarettes smoked by Bill Tench in episodes 7, 8, and N. We get five total.
So, he's cutting back. He's cutting back. >> Very disappointing. With this number
getting smaller and smaller, I started I realized too late in the game, I should
should be counting the whisies that he's drinking because it feels like as the shows go on, he's smoking less
cigarettes but drinking more whisies. >> Uh, two whisies for every cigarette. >> Episode 10 opens with the delivery of
one of BTK's letters to the newspaper. And as we've already said and as we know, BTK communicated with anyone who
was willing to help him make a name for himself. Holden and Tench go to Atlanta and this is where you see them play out
and plan a strategy to get Dver to talk. He's not admitted to anything. The most
he says is that he saw the girl at one point. And Tench and the local police come up with a really good lead on this.
This is oldfashioned detective work when Tench's character notices that the trees
near the what is believed to be the abduction site were recently trimmed. And so he thought, let's start looking
or at least talk to the persons that trimmed those trees because a a company was hired to come in and clear the trees
from the power lines, >> right? >> They're going to go to Atlanta to try to get this guy to confess cuz they're
pretty convinced that Dver did it. Dver passed a polygraph examination on the show. I couldn't sort out if that was
true, but I did find without being able to have the time to read them, some of the court transcripts are available
online for his trial or one of his trials. There were several mistrials, >> right?
>> Anyway, he does pass the polygram examination on the show. And we know and have said this for years here that true
psychopaths can and often do pass the polygraph examination. This seems to be their
suspicions here, right? Oh, he passed it. We still want to go talk to him. We don't think that you asked the right
questions. We don't think you asked them in the right way to get this guy to talk. They often can pass these
polygraph examinations simply due to their complete lack of remorse and other factors. That's not going to get past
our fictional agents here. They strategically place personal items from the victim around the interview room.
They scheduled the interview for nighttime. And it was the rock, just like his chapter, everyone has a rock. It was the
rock that was placed in the room that got Dver to break down. So Douglas gets the killer using practices and
techniques learned from studying and interviewing killers. Well, it's fascinating, too, because we we know and
the killer knows that rock is an instrument in the murder. So by placing it in the room, you're almost implying
to the killer that we know more than you think we know. >> Yeah. And that's the reaction they have
on the show is they tell they kind of just place the rock there and then Holden reveals it during the interview
but in a very nonchalant way. He doesn't he doesn't talk about the rock. He doesn't gesture towards it or anything.
And what we see the D character do on the show is he starts staring at that rock and he gets he's visibly nervous
immediately. and they let that linger for a while before pointing out that only the killer would know the
importance of that insignificance of that rock and you're having a reaction to it.
>> This is actually the same tactic and was used in a very famous movie, A Few Good
Men where they bring in the air traffic controllers. Now, they're not going to testify to anything, but Colonel Jessup
does not know that, so he has to give him the truth. As said on the show, this breaks down the character and leads to
the arrest. And after making the arrest, the officers, the lo local officers and
the agents, they go and celebrate at a cop bar. We see Bill Tench there. He burns a dog, has a couple of whisies.
Then later, we will see Bill Tench smoking his final cigarette of season 1. And then they slowly fade in the music
here. And I really love the way that they did this. We hear we then hear In the Light by Led Zeppelin from the 1975
Physical Graffiti album. >> They play that for a while. They they break to another scene. This is near the
end of season 1 where we have Holton Ford returning to Vakavville to see big Ed Keer. It's confusing because it Well,
maybe we should leave this part out. Maybe we don't need to talk in detail about this scene because it's a pretty
powerful scene here. But then they they go right back into the in the light by Led Zeppelin and we see the the Ford
character collapse in the hospital hallway. The final scene of series 1 is Dennis Raider BTK tossing pages and
pages depicting torture into a burn bin. [Music] Mine Hunter season 1. So much good music. One thing that you
know, I'll say I'm just a little disappointed in you that you didn't go through the cars.
If you are a car guy or a car girl, this series has some classics in there. I did
mention the car that they drive, which is the 1971 Plymouth Satellite. >> Yes. Awesome car, but also awesome
acting. So, if you would have to break down who your top three characters so far,
>> well, for me it would be the three main characters, Holden Ford, Bill Tench, and
Wendy Carr. Or or at least I'm calling them the main characters. Again, just like I said earlier, the way that they
work together in those scenes I thought was just look, one person can be brilliant on their own, but to get
something orchestrated like that together, >> that's true brilliance. That's that's
much more difficult to do than just one person being great at their craft. Who are the three for you? I I guess the Ed
Keer character is is played very well by by that actor as well. But uh for for me, I really like
seeing the three working together as a team. I think Ed is probably like the most quotable because he has a certain
draw to his voice and because he comes off so endearing and and also like his his voice is almost like round like his
voice is almost like a bubble but what he is saying is so sick and so sadistic you're it's almost masked by this unique
draw. >> Yes. And we do know that in real life, John Douglas almost died and he he he
landed in the hospital for a very long period of time, but it was not as depicted on the show where he has that
interaction with Ed Keer at the end in the the medical portion of the the state facility. But yes, the the Ed Kemper
character is is fantastic. And you're exactly right. The most quotable by far. And I would say second on the quote
scale would probably be Bill Tench for the times that Holden Ford is annoying him or or he does something that Tench
doesn't approve of. Well, Cameron Britain is uh Edmund Kemper. Fantastic job. But I think what surprised me is
you you learn about actors and Jonathan Gra, I think I'm pronouncing that correct. He's Holden Ford. And so I know
nothing about this guy. You're introduced to him within minutes. He's he's basically the main guy, him and
Bill Tench. But Jonathan is such a brilliant Broadway actor >> and and he's a singer and dancer and
that's really his wheelhouse. If you get a chance to see him on Broadway, make sure you do so. But it's also kind of
hard to watch him cuz the whole time all you can think about is that he's a detective. He works for the FBI. Why is
he singing and dancing? It makes no sense. And then anything that uh Hol Macallony,
he is absolutely brilliant in Shotller. He's a prisoner in Shotller, but the whole time you're like, why is he in
prison? He's a FBI agent. >> Oh, he must be undercover. Uh, so yeah, I just think the acting is brilliant.
The cinematography is brilliant. And one of the things, I think this is true, don't quote me on this, but when they
said, "Well, it's not coming back for season 3, four or five," you go, "Well, why not?" Well, it costs a lot to make.
>> And when we're talking with John Douglas, he talked about how how David Fincher would shoot scenes multiple
times. So, you go, "Okay, well, that that would cost some money." But what I heard also is a lot of the buildings and
the background to make it uh the time period correct and to make the visual aspect of the background correct. A lot
of that stuff is CGI and so obviously that would have cost a lot of money >> which and which should get easier as
they progress, right? with the season 2 is going to be less in the past, more recent,
>> right? >> And that you could get to the point I mean BTK wasn't apprehended till what
did I say earlier? 2005. Well, my argument though, um, somebody I told, "Hey, the background is CGI." And they
go, "No way. It looks too good." I go, "Yeah, but it's easier to do a still image CGI than it is to do a dinosaur."
So, yeah, cuz I'm not I'm not a huge fan of CGI. But if that's how they altered all
the backgrounds in Mine Hunter, then I guess maybe I need to re-evaluate my opinion.
>> Yeah, if that's how it was done, it was done to perfection. many books that we
reference here in this series. I would recommend Mineh Hunter by John Douglas and also The Cases That Haunt Us. I I
really enjoyed that book from John Douglas. >> Yeah, there's a I mean it's four true
crime garage episodes of talking about things to go watch, listen to, read, and all of them that were referenced here.
Very good stuff. If you'd like to support the garage, go to trueimegage.com, pick something up in the merch store,
and we'll be forever grateful to you. Thanks for listening to the Mine Hunter series, and until next week, be good, be
kind, and don't litter. [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Mindhunter /// Part 4 /// 871

Part 4 of 4

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One of True Crime Garage’s favorite Crime series of all time is the Netflix original Mindhunter. Mindhunter is mostly real true crime tales from the F.B.I. Season One kicks things off in 1977 with legendary agents John Douglas and Robert Ressler partnering up and stepping into the minds and the madness of serial killers. Join Nic & the Captain as they celebrate this great series by exploring the true crime tales from the Mindhunters and the F.B.I.

Beer of the Week - Hazy IPA by Great Divide Brewing Company

Garage Grade - 4 out of 5 bottle caps

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Brief Summary

Tench and Ford interrogate suspects, explore serial killer psychology, and face personal challenges in this intense episode.

Key points

True Crime Garage Introduction. Hosts Nick and the Captain welcome listeners and share their beer choice for the episode.
The Beverly Jean Case. Bill Tench interrogates a suspect in a brutal murder case, revealing shocking details.
Interviewing Jerry Brudos. The team discusses the complexities of interviewing a notorious serial killer.
Tension at the Tench Household. Bill's work impacts his family life, leading to a confrontation with his wife.
Escalation of Deviant Behavior. Holden learns about the progression of criminal behavior through studying Brudos.
Dennis Rader's Obsession. Rader reveals his obsession with Anna Williams and his rage when she escaped.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Not all of these evil bastards are loners.

Discussion about killers who have families.

6:58WatchSep 17, 2025

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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