Santa Rosa Murders ////// A Confluence of Killers | Forensic Files

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[Music] We last left off discussing a possible connection to two more victims, but we
didn't get into the complexities of their case. Those victims were Carrie Anne Graham and Francine Marie Trimble,
who went missing together in December of 1978. Their decomposed bodies were discovered the following July about 80
miles north of where these two kids' families lived in Forestville, California. Their remains were
discovered together at a bottom of an embankment in a heavily overgrown wooded area beside a remote section of Highway
20. This is dozens of miles, just a dozen miles actually, outside of the city of Willlets. The bodies had been
placed in ducttaped garbage bags. So very different than some of our other crime scenes here, Captain, but
discarded like trash like the detectives had described with many of the other crime scenes and victims. Police believe
the victims had been killed elsewhere and then dumped in this remote location. Carrie Anne Graham would remain
unidentified until November of 2015. So reminder here, they go missing in in December of 78. They're found in July of
79. This is the complexities that I'm talking about with this case in particular here in the series of cases.
Kerianne Graham is not identified until November of 2015 when the identities of both girls were confirmed via DNA
profiling. Their bodies were too decomposed to determine a cause of death. No clothing was found at the
scene. So, it's presumed that the victims were nude when they were placed there. A single shell earring, however,
which would later be identified as belonging to Francine, was found at this scene. So, here's where this case is
very different from the others, as these two were not identified for so many years, for decades and decades. And in
fact, one part of this case that is incredibly aggravating is this particular case here, Carrie
Graham and Francine Trimmel. Because throughout the years, the victim's family and persons in the media, just
civilians in general, kept saying, "Hey, those bodies you guys found about 7 months after these two teenage girls go
missing are probably the two missing teenagers." Of course, yes, it's what did we say? 80 miles north of where they
lived, but we're also talking about what they knew at the time was the general age of the victims that were found and
that two victims were found together. There were not, it's not like there was an abundance of missing persons reports
where it's two persons going missing together of about the same age as your bodies,
>> right? And so everybody keeps saying, "Hey, it's probably those two girls. It's probably these two girls." Now,
it's the detectives are a little handcuffed here because the information that they were getting, the scientific
information that they were getting along the way was that, you know, at first they're like, "We can't confirm that
it's them. We can't confirm that it's them." But the scientific information they were getting was that no, one
victim was a female, but the other victim that we found was definitely a male. And then the belief became that it
was probably a brother and sister that had been found that were murdered, discarded of, and had been found. And so
all of these years, for all those years, no, no, no, no. It's not Carrie Graham.
No, no, no. It's not Francine Trimble. >> Right. Only to find out in 2015 that it
was in fact the same people that many people had believed it would have been for many, many years. The only people
that didn't believe it were law enforcement. And of course, they're getting bad information from the medical
examiner's office. A lot is lost to the crime scene anyway and to the passing of
time. Remember, time is the killer of evidence, not the killer of these two girls. We don't know the cause of death.
They're found in trash bags, which is different than our other scenes. But also, what kind of investigation could
have been had over those decades if we worked it with maybe the idea that we're going to leave the possibility open that
it is the two missing girls. I'm sure there was some arguments behind closed doors.
>> Arguments. There was arguments be behind closed doors and in front of closed doors on both sides of the doors, my
friend. So that single shell ears >> that single shell earring is discovered there, which is
>> calling card. >> We found a single earring at multiple scenes. And then well, here's here's
where I get infuriated here. So what county was this? Look, wait, let me see here, Captain. Oh, Mendescino County.
Okay. All right. You know when you know when folks say it was a herculean effort, an undertaking that requires
tremendous strength, immense effort, or you're faced with extreme difficulty, but you overcame it. this double
homicide investigation. While the modern detectives did a fine job and deserve an
add a boy or an add a girl because they did come to the right conclusion and they did finally figure out who these
victims were, but not the folks who worked this thing back in the day. They worked this thing about as hard as Fami
Malik falling asleep in the back office. >> Right? >> This is one where you just want to grab
the sheriff offic's public information officer and smack him over the head with a phone book and say, "No, no, no. go
back to the medical examiner and demand that they do another autopsy or better yet bring in a pathologist, another
pathologist, and take another look. Take a new look because these people are beating down our doors and will not
quiet our our phones telling us that they believe it's the two missing girls. Meanwhile, it was the entire time. And
while you did get it right in the end, what does it matter now? Your case still sits there open, unsolved. And how many
people could you have talked to in those decades? It's very complicated to talk to them now because either they moved
away, they don't remember, or they have passed away themselves. Well, when you're in the office and you ask Steve
to make you a 100 copies of of some report and he keeps handing you back 10 pages instead of 100 pages and then you
just do it yourself and you make the 100 copies. Steve didn't get it correct. Steve is still an [ __ ]
>> Steve Steve Arenino making copies. Although the initial autopsy report correctly determined that the victims
found had likely died in December of 1978. Okay. Did you hear what I just said? The
initial autopsy report determined that the two victims found who were determined to not be adults
died in the same month that two missing teenage the same month that the two when
the two missing teenagers disappeared, >> right? >> I mean, everything is telling you that
it's them. So, the autopsy >> leap >> the autopsy report concluded that the victims were those of a male and a
female. As I said, as such, investigators did not consider the possibility that the deedants may have
been Graham and Trimble and the age was wrong on one of the victims as well to further complicate making any actual
identification. On July 2nd, 1979, the skeletal remains of another probable victim of the Santa Rosa killer, known
only as Jane Doe, was discovered 100 yards from the location where Lorie Kursa's remains had been found 6 years
earlier in the 2,000 block of Kalisoga Road. It appeared that Jane Doe had been hog tied
with a Venetian blind cord and her left arm had been fractured in that process. According to authorities, they are
instantly and obviously making a connection to the manner in which Terresa Walsh had been found, bound,
ultimately leading to her death. This victim was then stuffed into a duffel bag before being crudely dumped into the
ravine. >> Yeah, but see there's connection. There's escalation. Are these cases
connected? Well, some of the victims are found in the nude, not in bags, and now
we got these other victims in bags, but there's a time period that elapse between killings. So, there's there's
there's somebody adapting. So dumping the body in in basically the same location, you go ding ding ding. There's
a connection some somehow some way. And it could just be it could be as simple as well this is the same killer or it
could be that there's a killer that has taken in this information and used this area to to dump their victim. But I lean
more towards the fact that it's just the same killer. >> Yeah. I we're talking about multiple
agencies here. So, I don't want to sound like I'm just pointing the finger at the
same people over and over again and saying, "I don't think you did a good job." >> Yeah. But the thing is is if they think
they did a good job, then why is the end result that we don't know who the killer
is? You know, I've spoke to a lot of detectives and a lot of people in law enforcement and most of the time they'll
say, "Hey, look, there's one or two that got away from me and those will bother me forever." And maybe it was because I
I made a misstep. Maybe it was because I was going through a divorce. Maybe I wasn't as focused as I needed to be.
Maybe I was a little burnt out. Yes, we're talking a little [ __ ] about these investigators, but I think they might be
willing to to raise their hand and and maybe talk [ __ ] about themselves during
this investigation. >> Well, and it's not even our words either. I mean, go back to our
examination of the Mine Hunter show. Bill Ted's character references it there. And then we did the work to
determine and confirm that the fictional characters information was in fact correct when he says that the state of
California has a lower clearance rate than on homicide cases than most of the United States.
And that is in fact true. Well, there's a reason for that. and he points out some reasons why that the killer in some
cases has a leg up on the opposition. But also we know that sometimes people just don't do great investigations.
Either they don't know how to, they're not allowed to by their by their superiors,
they're handcuffed for some reason or other, or they just didn't do a good job. And
look, so I I circled back to the Jane Doe and wanted to talk about the Jane Doe for good reason because we talked
about two Jane Does once labeled a John Doe and Jane Doe that went unidentified for decades and decades. And now we know
we have there this other unidentified female victim. She was thought to be between the ages of 16 and 20 years old.
fits the victimology that we're talking about as far as age goes. About 5 foot three inches tall with red auburn or
brown hair. No clothing was present at the crime scene just like many of the other crime scenes, but police found a
small metal candy tin with a picture of cherries on the front containing a pair of hard contact lenses presumably
belonging to the victim. Remember, this is how that they determined that the death very likely occurred between 1972
and 1974, which very neatly fits into the time frame of the other victims that we talked about. I'm bringing her up
again because one good work that they did, one good piece of work that they did do, not that they didn't do others,
just citing this one particular here, that in 2009 they did DNA testing to try to figure
out who she was. And and it's not crazy that a lot of people thought for many years that this Jane Doe very likely
could be the ever missing Janette Kamahle who has never been seen again but has always been tethered to this
series of murders. Even though her body's not been found, she's not been recovered alive and well. So they wanted
to one a figure out who the Jane Doe is and make sure is it Janette Kamahle or not. In 2009 we learn via DNA testing
that it was not Janette Kamahle. But we talked about strategies for your investigation back in 1974 and 75. Well
actually we were going back to 72 and 73. strategies for your investigation and your team in 72 and 73. Well,
talking about potential strategies as how you may work the case today in 2025 would be let's identify this Jane Doe.
Let's identify her because it plays into your investigation for many reasons. If you can identify her,
most people are killed by somebody that they know. that immediately is going to open up a suspect pool in this
particular murder victim's investigation. That pool may lead you to somebody that
killed some of these other women as well. And I sit here and I look at these cases, Captain, and I'm I see that I
believe that a lot of them are connected. I believe that a lot of them were probably carried out by the same
killer or killers. And I do believe that there's probably a one or two one or two
cases here that were not. Uh I pointed out one in particular earlier. And then I also think that there's a chance that
maybe a couple of these girls were killed by a by definition serial killer, just not by the same serial killer that
may have killed a handful of the other victims, >> which I think you'd be right to
speculate about. But I mean there was an argument for a long time that in the list case that there possibly was two
murderers >> because of where the bodies were found and those bodies uh were found couple
bodies grouped together and then the Gilgo 4 obviously grouped together and then you you're you're sitting there
again speculating is it >> one or two killers here working in the same operating in the same territory.
We talked about a lot about the potential victims that are presented by law enforcement and the FBI in 1975 as
victims pointing out that maybe this killer continued to kill after 72 and 73. There's possible links to a maybe an
earlier victim. So there is further question not just if these were all connected, but when did the murders
actually start? So, while the Santa Rosa murders weren't officially recognized as
having begun until 1972, there are sources out there that strongly suggest and consider another victim, Lisa
Michelle Smith, to have been an earlier victim of the Santa Rosa killer. Lisa, a
17-year-old Paluma resident, was hitchhiking on Hearn Avenue in Santa Rosa, California in the early morning
hours of March 16th, 1971 when she seemed to just poof vanish. In true 1970s manner, the teen was wearing
green bell bottoms, a white ruffled blouse, and white cowboy boots, and a dark navy peacacoat. and she was last
seen thumbming a ride. Her outfit's so distinctive that I believe the eyewitness reports of people coming
forward saying, "Hey, I've I saw somebody matching that description who was out hitchhiking
on that day when this young woman vanished. [Music] [Music] All right, we are back, mates.
I hope you are kicking nuts and sucking butts today. Talk hands in the air. Cheers to you, Colonel.
>> Cheers to you, Captain. I hope you are not doing any of those things. >> Depends on what kind of butts.
>> Her case is strange. You know, we all of them are strange obviously, but we talk
about a lot of times in these cases where you have an unidentified serial killer, serial offender of any nature,
that there is a high likelihood that someone there's someone out there that got away. And that's the person you want
to find. That's your witness that you need because they're going to have intimate knowledge about that serial
offender. Knowledge that and information that unfortunately the only other persons to come into that information
and that knowledge are not here to tell us about what they saw, what they heard,
what they witnessed, words spoken by the monster itself. We mentioned that this Lisa Smith vanished, right? She's
reported missing by her parents, never resurfaced. Around the same time, the media catches wind of this story about a
young woman who's like 20, 21, who was going by the name of Lisa Smith. Now, mind you, let's to be fair, very common
name. But this Lisa Smith was treated at a Nevada General Hospital. At the Nevada General
Hospital for injuries, including a skull fracture and severe cuts and bruises. This woman told medical personnel that
she had been assaulted at gunpoint by a motorist who picked her up, saying that the man had threatened to rape her, but
she had escaped by jumping out of the moving pickup truck, which caused likely caused or furthered her injuries she
already sustained during this assault. So, she's treated, but she doesn't stick around long enough for the authorities
to get there to interview her. There is an article that was in the Santa Rosa Press Democrat
in April of 1971 that reported that the woman treated at the hospital was the same Lisa Smith that was missing, the
17-year-old Palumatine. They've never been able to figure out was she in fact the same missing Lisa Smith. But in
2011, the same outlet that reported the teenage Lisa who had vanished in March of 71 was never found. Eventually,
they're saying that they're not actually the same person. How they were able how
they were able to confirm this or at least believe that they had enough information to release this report, I
don't know. I don't know because it seems to it seems to suggest that they were looking at it as if she could be
the same person but with that common name. Did this woman give the a wrong name on purpose?
Is she giving a wrong name due to the skull fracture? This is one of those stories that it's
like if we had more information, if she was in fact the same Lisa Smith, what could
she tell us about that asalent? And if she wasn't the Lisa Smith, is this whole part of the story just fictitious?
>> Right. But also, does she remember that this at all? >> Yeah. And where is this person? So, this
this was one of those angles that I I didn't know whether to include it or not, but rather than being accused of
not being thorough, I thought, let's put it in there. I don't think it's helpful
in any shape or form, but it is helpful than not. >> Thank you. It's and the part that I do
think is helpful is to point out that there was a victim who is very similar to a lot of our other victims who was
known to be hitchhiking was in fact last seen to be hitchhiking in March of 71 in
Santa Rosa. So we could have another victim. This could be the first victim in the series of dreadful murders that
took place after after this young woman went missing. Suspects, Captain, >> there's many.
>> You want to talk about suspects? The suspects are weird in this case because you can look at some of the suspects and
go, "Whoa, this clears a lot of things up." And really truly, the more you dig on each of these suspects, it doesn't it
it makes things all that more confusing. One thing you brought up to several of our beautiful listeners, you know, we
were sitting at Crime Con. We get we're always amazed because we have fun here in the garage
the best we can given the subject matter and showing sensitivity and respect for
the people of in these stories that deserve it. >> Yeah, occasionally you make some rude,
insensitive remarks, but other than that, we have a good time. So, we're sitting there at Crime Con at at our
booth and you know, we get the most brilliant, lovely, greatlooking listeners come up.
>> They smell good. >> They smell and we're and so we're just like, "Hey, you know, aren't we the
luckiest? We got the best audience, clearly the best audience. We saw other podcasters booths and tables, not such a
good >> audience sucked. Their audience sucked." And one thing that I heard, you know, we
get in these these conversations with the different listeners at Crime Con. And one thing conversation that I
overheard on your end a couple times was the because of our location where we were, you know, we're in Denver/ Aurora,
Colorado, and you had said, you know, maybe somebody should come up with the capital of true crime. What is the
capital of true crime? And that was an interesting question to ponder and a a interesting conversation to be had there
in Colorado because of all of the very infamous cases that have come out of over came out from that area over the
years. John Benet cases we've covered the Aurora theater shooter >> Coline >> Coline Hammer Slayer was from that area.
Uh, we've covered a lot, Chris Watts. We've covered a lot of cases from that area.
>> And at first I didn't know what you were talking about. And my I was like, well,
if we're talking about all kinds of, you know, just the multitude, the the overwhelming number of crimes, well, of
course, it's going to be New York or LA. But I think you could have this conversation here in regard to the Santa
Rosa murder case because here once we start digging through these suspects that have been openly discussed by many
other people, I might toss a couple into into the equation that haven't been so openly discussed. You sit here and you I
call this this wouldn't be the capital of true crime, but I call this like a confluence of killers because there's
been so many known and then in the case of the Zodiac unknown serial killers to have been linked potentially linked to
one of these cases or a lot of the cases that fall under the Santa Rosa murder cases. Let me throw one out real quick
here that seems to have been discussed at length but also discarded of. There's an infamous case called the Hillside
Stranglers case. These two, it was carried out by Kenneth Bianke and Angelo Bono. We've talked about them. We've
never covered the Hillside case in the garage, but we've talked a little bit about especially about Kenneth Bianke
when we were discussing the alphabet murders >> or the double initial loop. >> Cover them.
They were looked at or at least looked at by the true crime community. Let's say these were the diabolical cousins
that were responsible for the murders of 10 women between October 1977 and February of 1978.
They left their victims on hillsides, which is not unlike where we're finding some of our victims here
in this case. This general statement is they were ultimately ruled out. I don't know that they've been officially ruled
out in any real capacity, but it seems like most people move on rather quickly from the two of them because they appear
to not have been active at all until late 1977. I will say this though, it wouldn't
shock me one bit if Angelo Buono, who lived in California much longer than Kenneth Bianke did, right? It wouldn't
it wouldn't surprise me if he was actively killing earlier than we are currently aware of. This was a very evil
man. This was a I mean he was e he was evil to his family, to his to his children, to his
stepchildren, to his wife. He was just a a a devil, a demon of a man. I it's hard to call a
man. >> Kick his own dog. >> I don't want to go. I I have part of the reason that we've not discussed them
before or or examined their case is some of the things that this guy did to his family is just too and to with the
victims just very difficult to discuss. But it it sounds like the community has moved on from them. We do know Kenneth
Bianke was active without his cousin Angelo Buono. So, I I think it would be ignorant of us to for a second think
that Angelo didn't do horrific things without the help of of uh his cousin. Ted Bundy is one who is often discussed
in this case. We know that he traveled several states. He was a killer in multiple states and managed to remain
unidentified for for many for for many years. in some of the cases and we know that his preferred victim would be and
university and college students. >> Wouldn't he be quite young for these murders?
>> Not really. I mean, he he started killing in January of 1974. So, to to say he wasn't killing in 72 or 73
doesn't seem like much of a stretch. I think where the problem becomes is that it's a little more difficult to tie him
to the area, right? Cuz he was killing up in Washington state. But we do know that he did spend some time going to
college down in California and he had he had a girlfriend down there for a period of
time as well. So he would have traveled through this area. And then there are some that have suggested that at times
you know he his look changed and you it's very easy to see this on the internet uh with Ted Bundy but one of
the looks that he had at some point remember we have the bushyhaired man or the afrohaired
Caucasian male that he did have a look that wouldn't be a stretch from that general description. In fact, there are
reports that he was wearing his hair in that style 1972, which would have been the same year as those witness
statements. >> But didn't he also tell law enforcement that he committed murders in California?
>> Well, no. That's interesting. So, I'm glad you brought that up. Robert Keell,
who believed that Bundy refused to talk about California. Robert Keell believed that that Ted Bundy had killed at least
one person in California. Robert Keell and and it sounds like the FBI believed that there was reason to connect him to
these one or two or several of these Santa Rosa murders. And Keell says, you know, what what he believed Bundy was
doing was holding back information because he knew that it was a bartering piece to buy him more time to stay off
of buy him another day, week, or months from sitting down on the electric chair in Florida where he was ultimately
executed. Keell says that he said, "I want to talk about Florida or sorry, I want to talk about
California to Bundy." and that Bundy didn't want to talk about California. Now, why wouldn't Bundy want to talk
about California? One, a bartering piece that he might want to save for later. Two, California death penalty, which is
different than some of the other states that he had committed his murders in. There are persons that say
that he was ultimately ruled out because there are credit card records placing him in Washington state. Definitively
placing placing him in Washington state. So he would be many hours away from where these abductions and murders took
place. However, the here's what I want to say about Bundy because you could you could devote an entire two hours to just
Bundy's likelihood or not likelihood of being connected to one of these cases or
many of them. There are reasons to suggest that he could have done it. All right.
He did dispose of his victims in rural areas. This is a very similar victimology.
He did like getting his victims into his vehicle. Right. The credit card receipts the way
as as I have not been able to view them with these eyeballs that God gave me. What I've been told is while some will
argue that that rule him will rule him out, others will argue that no, that you can't say that because he was in
Washington state on a Thursday that he didn't kill a girl that was picked up and murdered on a Wednesday.
>> Right. And that would be accurate there. The time would allow for that. >> My other question would be, did he have
a girlfriend at the time and was he allowing them to use his credit card? And so, did he actually make those
purchases on the credit card or not? Well, and if you look up the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker murders case and Ted Bunny's
involvement on Wikipedia, the thing that irks me is when they say, "Well, he was
ruled out because they also believe that this individual lived in Santa Rosa and
that they believed it was somebody that worked as a male carrier or a public utility worker because they would have
been familiar with these remote rural locations. Well, guess what? These these killers,
they look for these locations. They get they get familiar with these locations. And look, the timing might be a little
bit off here. I'm simply I'm not saying that Bundy makes the best suspect. I'm simply saying that I think he makes a
decent suspect. And I had referenced Stanford University earlier. We have a girlfriend of his that graduated from
and left Washington in the middle of ' 68 and moved to San Francisco. So when visiting her, he would be traveling to
and from um and he also earned a scholarship uh to study Chinese at Stanford University
in ' 68. So, while that doesn't fit our timeline real well, it also what it does
point out is that he would have been going to this area, even living in this area at some point in his his life.
>> When he started killing is difficult to say. When the Santa Rosa murder started is
equally difficult to say. and he would have been 22, 23ish when he would have been in the San
Francisco area. >> And he also had the skills to get victims into his car. >> Yes. Unfortunately, that was one of his
serial killer superpowers that we all wish he did not possess. So, we've mentioned Zodiac, we've mentioned
Hillside Stranglers, and then Ted Bundy. How about one that is lesser known? Frederick Manali.
Now, that might if you're familiar with this case, you're familiar with that name. If you're new to this case, you
are new to that name. But police became aware of Frederick Manali in 1976. So, he emerged as a person of interest
in this case. He died in 1976. at the time he was a 41-year-old former Santa Rosa Junior College English
teacher. So, he's an English professor and creative writing instructor. He died in a head-on collision on Highway 12 on
August 24th, 1976. So his passing while shocking and accidental, he's still alive for
the general time period of when when these killings take place that we're looking at here,
>> right? His other tie is that he had been Wendy Allen's Kim Wendy Allen's professor Santa Rosa victim Kim Wendy
Allen's professor along among his belongings investigators discovered stomasistic drawings
portraying none other than his student Kim Allen. Inexplicably, he had drawn Kim alongside a feminized version of
himself that he called Freda. They also found obscene sketches of other young women depicting them all in compromising
and humiliating positions and at times with Manali himself depicted in this his sick artwork that he's making.
>> But these are just red flags. This is not a smoking gun. Additionally, and I'm going to limp in here with this
statement because I've seen this reported. I've seen it debunked and I can't confirm what is correct.
But it's often been reported that also among his belongings was a backpack that many believe belonged to Kim. So, we we
talked about when she went missing, one of the possessions she is believed to have on her person at the time was her
backpack. And there are people believe >> that's where your smoking gun would be.
>> Yes. Yes. Right. And I will agree with you that the while the artwork, if you
want to call it that, is not a smoking gun, I will agree 100% with that statement. What I want to really
emphasize though here is I I believe it's I believe that it's while while I don't think you could convict this guy
on that, I find it very very strange that this young >> start with that >> is found all tied up.
>> Yeah. >> In a very intricate, specific, unique way. Nobody knows who killed her. And
then here's somebody that has a direct connection to the victim and later in his possessions are found sedto
masticistic drawings where he has her all tied up in sexual positions. Yeah. The big thing for me would be the book
bag, but again I I tried to dive into this as much as I could. One report will say, "Yeah, it's
true." And other people say, "Well, he had backpacks, but we don't know if they belong to to Kim or not."
>> Yeah. So, police have said that they think that maybe he became obsessed with
her after she was found in that manner, after she had been killed. Look, we recommend, we are big proponents of um
therapy here uh in the garage, but uh I don't know how therapeutic it would be to
>> I I just I cannot. It's it's very difficult for me to dismiss this detail of a victim being found in such a unique
manner and then somebody going out of their way to create depictions of that. That is so
similar to BTK and the things that he did uh both on a piece of paper and inside the homes of
his victims. That is so similar to what a lot of other serial killers have done where they have to for whatever reason
that's part of that's part of their nature that some of them have to keep these fantasies alive and they they do
that by creating imagery of those victims and of those crimes. But then you'd have to prove that Kim Allen's
case was connected to the other ones and this possibly could be his one and only
victim. >> I agree. I agree with that. But that's why I've gone out of the way multiple
times in this four-part series to point out how uniquely this victim was tied up.
>> And I think another smoking gun would be in his artwork. Does it depict the same
uh positions? Does it is there anything that is another smoking gun as far as uh
because in a sense it's a it's a visual confession. Is there something he's confessing to in this this visual
artwork that these details only the killer would know about the details of the crime? When you
have two other victims that are tied up in a very similar manner, it's not a a far leap to say, "Well, these two or
three crimes, these two or three murders are probably connected." And you, yes, Captain, you're asking all the right
questions, but I'm not I cannot be so dismissive of this air quotes artwork. It's strange. It's very strange. It puts
him in a very very small percentile of life events. I mean it just the the numbers start to get smaller and smaller
and smaller of of if if he is just completely innocent of the number of people that you could pull into a room
and say that that yeah this girl happens to be killed happens to be killed in this manner and then somebody's spending
their time creating drawing depictions and imagery of this girl being tortured and tied up.
>> And like you said, it was one of his students, so there's your ruse to get her in the car. Hey, I'm your professor.
I I'll give you a ride. No big deal. Look, give me give me this evidence against this guy in a little bit of
time. I think I could get a conviction. In 2022, police started taking a look at serial
rapist Jack Alexander Boyin to an unsolved murder, 90 1997 murder of Michelle Vale in Soma County. Boyin, who
had died in prison the year before, had been serving time for a series of rapes and attempted murder. So, here's a guy
where you have a serial rapist who's being locked up forever. They committed convicted of one attempted murder, but
they didn't think this guy was in fact a murderer. After his death, they link his
DNA to DNA found at the 96 murder of Michelle Vale. So now you have a a very violent offender, very violent serial
offender who you now know has in fact murdered. He was in this area at this time. And so since 2022, authorities
have been exploring the possibility that he may be responsible for the Santa Rosa
murders or for some of the Santa Rosa murders. The victim here, Michelle, was found similar to our Santa Rosa victims,
or at least some of them. Her she was found nude along a rural road. I think something and I'd want to know this and
not to jump back to a suspect but this Frederick right was his ears pierced because like you said he has these
drawings depicting him as as a female. Did he have his ears pierced? Ears pierced on males in the late 60s early
70s would be abnormal. So, I'd wonder, does this killer have his ears pierced in it? Are they leaving the earring
behind, but taking the other earring and maybe as a souvenir or even wearing it later when they fantasize about these
crimes and making it a a forever connection to from killer to victim? That's intriguing because you would one
would believe you find these other earrings, the missing earring. It's like uh Cinderella's slipper. We've not found
those. What I would like to know further too is even if you don't find these with
the with Frederick here, but tell me tell us more about this artwork about these drawings. Was he drawing earrings?
Was that something that popped up in some of the his his demented artwork that he was putting together? That I
would like to know. Uh, but it would be the jewelry question, the earring question that would lead us to our next
talked about suspect. His name is Jim Morai. This is from the recent HBO Max documentary, The Truth
About Jim, where it was suggested that a high school vocational teacher and part-time
landscaper, Jim Morai, may have been responsible for some or most or all of the Santa Rosa slangs. Morai died of
cancer in 2008. He spent time with his family on an isolated ranch near Santa Rosa in Soma
County. Since the 1970s, Jim would have been intimately familiar with the secluded back roads
of this area. He had no, we should point out he had no criminal record, but family members were
shocked, disturbed, troubled, whatever. fill in the blank here when they found a
box containing odd mismatched jewelry including single earrings that were found in his belongings. So the jewelry
did not belong to any of the family members and the family members don't understand why he would have had this in
his possession. They don't understand what it means and so the jewelry here has led him to be a suspect in the eyes
of some a lot of it. The jewelry that was found would be described as such that would be have been worn by young
women, college age women, teenage girls in the 70s. So it fits the time period. It fits the victimology.
The part of this though that we need to keep in mind too is with the Jim Morai stuff. One problem with the story is
that it's similar to stories about the Zodiac, right? Everybody in California's got a stepdad or an uncle that was the
Zodiac. and whatever whatever item that they found in a garage or a basement at some point that told them that wait hold
on this guy is probably the Zodiac that item always seems to have vanished by the time that there's
there's the proper people to document this potential evidence. And just like that, the box of jewelry does not exist
to this day. If it does, it's not been found. It wasn't shown in the documentary TR, The Truth About Jim. His
family does raise some very interesting questions about him. It's while it sounds like he was not a very nice guy,
they also point out that similar to the Zodiac documentary or the I don't know if we should call it a Zodiac
documentary, it was more of a Arthur Lee Allen documentary on Netflix, >> right? very similar in the truth about
Jim to the Arthur Lee Allen Netflix documentary is that family members, young family members saying, "Well, he
would drive out to these locations where they had previously found a body or in some cases my memory says that we drove
to a location where a body was later found." So, there's a lot of very speculative,
unconfirmed, uncorroborated speculation about why Jim Morai could have been involved in some or all of the
murders here. I to me, I watched the documentary. I thought it was interesting. I thought that it did point
out that he was a bad dude. There was abuse. It sounds like Morai was not only a bully, but very much abusive towards
women and young uh maybe even young girls. I don't have any reason to push back on those claims, but
to say he was a serial killer, he's not here to defend himself. And I had not heard the name. I don't think most had
heard or nor considered that name until the documentary came out. They were working with the Soma County Sheriff's
Office in August of 2022 with the family to submit his DNA to try to come to some kind of conclusion here.
If if we are doing that, then that makes me wonder how much DNA do we have here?
Do we have enough that we can identify the killer or at least identify the killer in one of these cases? because
there still seems to be some lowhanging fruit, some meat on the bone with with this investigation, right? Identify your
Jane Doe. That will help further your investigation. If there is DNA in one of these cases, even if it's just one of
these cases, let's do let's hand it off to a a privatized lab. Work it. Work the familial DNA that
you can get from that. find the family tree and let's solve at least one of these damn things.
>> Yeah. The other problem too is the time period. We we live in a disposable economy and a lot of the stuff that we
buy is not everlasting and and this gym probably was raised by somebody that went through the Great Depression. So
you have, you know, that would be my big question too is how much stuff was he holding on to? Did he have boxes of old
tools? Did he have boxes of old screws and nails? And and did was he just a collector of things? Did he think,
"Well, these have some value, so I'm not going to just throw them away even though I'm not going to use them."
>> Yeah. So, some of the jewelry that was found was as again, we're going off of
descriptions here because it doesn't nobody can find it today. But one description, there are many that say
that this exactly matches some missing jewelry that was worn by one of the victims, Marine Sterling.
But again, it's it's all hearsay until you produce the physical item. Another part of the Morai story is that the man
seen at the skating rink, which Marine Sterling was the victim, one of the skating rink victims, ice rink victims.
Remember the witness that saw the two victims talking to an older man and and may have even left with that man. This
witness in 2022 or 2021 when shown a picture of Jim Morai from 1972. What he you know a
picture of him in 1972 that that witness said it could be Jim Morai that I saw that day. Now you're being asked that
question nearly 50 years later, but they didn't jump out of their seat and go absolutely not. So it is worth and
interesting to explore. I do want to throw a bit of a caveat into the equation here though, Captain, because
it's my understanding that that same witness years prior when shown a picture of what Ted Bundy looked like in 1972
said the same thing. it that guy kind of looks like the guy. >> Well, all white guys look the same.
>> But also didn't jump out of their chair and say absolutely not, >> right? I don't want to I don't want to
put too much weight to that eyewitness's statement because there's a chance if you showed I appreciate the witness's
honesty is what I'm trying to say here is it sounds like if you would have shown this witness a picture of a lot of
people that they would probably say the same thing that can't say absolutely yes
but I definitely won't say absolutely no. >> Yeah, I think this case is absolutely
fascinating. The problem is with all these sus suspects, I think there's a few details that you go, I could I could
pin some of these crimes on this suspect, but then again, it goes back to is one of these crimes a Bundy crime? Is
the other crime What's the problem with Jim suspect? Or are all these connected?
Well, and let me toss out a couple names that that aren't that are not regularly
discussed with the Santa Rosa case. As interesting as the names are that we've already discussed, I one that I I that
popped into my head immediately after going through a lot of the information was Terry Ped Rasmusen.
So Rasmusen this wow we're going way back in the garage archives right now. Rasmusen
was many many years after the fact believed to be the perpetrator of the Bear Brook murders which took place in
1978 in Allenstown, New Hampshire. I think we called it bodies in the barrel or barrel
bodies, something of that nature. But this was the it it almost looked like a family of females were found in barrels
and had been placed in the woods in Bear Brook State Park in Allenstown, New Hampshire.
>> Yeah. >> Many many years before they were found or or at least some period of time
before they were found, obviously. So it they were found in 1985. A second barrel was found in 2000 about
a hundred yards away from the first location. It took many years to develop the identity of some of the victims that
were found in the these barrels. What we ultimately learn is that one of these victims was a biological daughter to the
man I just said his name, Terry Peter Resmus. So, it's been determined or believed
that that very likely he killed them, disposed of them in these barrels, left them, but he was never charged in court,
never tried in court for never charged or never tried in court for these murders. Now, we do know that he married
Ensun Jun in 1999. This is much closer to the crimes that we're talking about today.
He plead guilty to the surprise of the court in Contraosta County for this murder. So this was his girlfriend at
the time of of her death and he was living under a different name of Larry Vanner. We would almost need a separate
episode to go through all of his aliases. He lived under Bob Evans, under the name of Bob Evans, Lawrence William
Vanner, Gerald Mockerman. He he had many aliases and he lived in many different areas. In fact, he's been tied to
several crimes, several murders after his death. I don't see anywhere where he's been talked about as being an
option here, but if you take a look at this guy in his 2002 mug shot and then you take a look at some pictures that we
have of him from his earlier life, it's not difficult to believe that he may have looked similar to the description
provided to us by the witness saying that they saw a victim. with a afrohaired Caucasian male. The reason why I bring
him up is not only did he move around, but that would be too easy, right? It' be too easily convenient to say, "Oh,
well, he moved around, so it must have been him." No, he actually has direct ties to you can place him in and around
Redwood, California. And we know that he was there in the late60s and at times in the early
70s and he worked as an electrician. And we talked about how it was openly speculated by law enforcement that well
maybe this the the killer is some kind of utility worker that has the ability to be on the road and be by themselves
for large portions of their day and their week. Yeah. But I I also find this I mean I find this very fascinating cuz
some of these killers will have these relationships and they have friends and and uh families and they and they never
kill or even, you know, do anything criminal to these individuals, but then they kill strangers.
And I don't even necessarily think that they hold a human life uh in more regards. Oh, this is my my uh daughter
or this is my wife, so therefore her life is more important. I don't even know if that's the case all the time.
But then I think there are some killers that are they're going to kill, but it's just
people that they are connected to as opposed to killing strangers. >> Absolutely. No, I agree with that
1,000%. But I would also my push back on that would be that just being capable of killing in the first
place separates you from a large portion of the population. So So your your pool starts to shrink
immensely. We know he was, look, Redwood City, Redwood City is just south of San
Francisco. And so he we know that he was in this area from the late60s until 1975.
So, while while there's nothing other than putting a known serial killer in the area at the time for this guy,
I don't I'm not trying to make a hard press that this is the dude. But to my credit,
what I think should be pointed out is this is no different than what many others have done with several other
serial killers is say, "Hey, they were in this area at this time and we can prove it. We know it to be true, so they
should have some consideration into the equation." I'm actually surprised that he's not
discussed because with some of these serial killers, known serial killers, um they are openly discussed just simply
because we know they have the ability to kill. We know that they killed female victims and we know that they were in
the area or had ties to the area. He checks every box that I just said. >> Yeah. And I but I think the problem
again with this case is are they connected? And I think sometimes people are ruling out these good suspects
because they're looking at all the cases and like the totality of it all and going, "Well, I'm going to rule this
suspect out because he's he's not a great fit for this other crime." That's why you That's why I I suggest you don't
investigate them as such. It that only troubles your investigation. you investigate them independently of one
another, especially when you've openly speculated that you cannot 100% connect them. So, investigate them independently
of one another. Why? Because that's what you you do on the on a regular basis. That's what you do on the daily. You
investigate a single homicide. That's what you and your team knows how to do. Another person that is not regularly
talked about here is Joseph D'Angelo also aka the Golden State Killer Ears ons the original nightstalker. I mean,
how many names? He's got a lot of the Vans, the Vicilia ransacker, the East Area Rapist, East
Side rapist, East Bay rapist, Creek Bed Killer, Diamond Knock Killer, original Nightstalker, Ears on Golden State
Killer. This guy's got no shortage of monikers. He too in the area at the time. Yes, this would have been before
he started killing, but would like to point out here that this would have been you want to they often will talk about
stressors. Well, he became he became engaged to a nursing student, Bonnie Cwell, in May of 1970. The relationship
ended in 1971. There are people that say that the Santa Rosa murder started in ' 71. Everybody
seems to agree that they started in 72 in February with the abduction of the two girls at the ice rink. Again,
putting a very dangerous man, a known serial killer in the area at the same time. Not difficult to do. There is a
book out there and I want to be clear here, I've not had the opportunity to read it and I was hoping to get a chance
to read it before we put together these episodes, but I did not. And the reason why I had
to put it I had to prior prioritize other resources in front of this one because I'm
uncertain if she was attempting to make the connection. But there's a book out there called What If?
The Golden State Killer Zodiac Solved: The Shocking True Story of Evil 58 years after freedom. This is
by Anne Penn. This book came out a few years ago, maybe five years ago. But in the book, I and I can I can speak to
what the book is talking about. One, just based off of the title, and two, based off of I've I've read interviews
that she's done. I've read information that she's put out outside of this book, and I've listened to interviews that
she's done. She is making a compelling argument that Joseph D'Angelo and the Zodiac Killer are one and the same. She
is making a compelling argument that Joseph D'Angelo committed other murders outside of the ones that we know he has
committed. I think she makes a strong argument. I'm not willing to say that D'Angelo was the Zodiac. Not willing to
say that he was the Santa Rosa killer, but I think that it's worth listening to. And that's one of the reasons why I
wanted to read that book. a lot of her statements and a lot of her findings, she researched this thing for many, many
years. In fact, to the point that when D'Angelo was named after his arrest as the Golden State killer, she was saying,
"All right, well, they're going to be testing the Zodiac DNA. When when do we find out? When are we
going to hear that D'Angelo was the Zodiac?" So please, again, a lot of times things that make their way onto
the show, they people will think that they are in fact our theories that we are pushing. This is not one that I'm
pushing. This is one that I find to be interesting and I think it would be >> right
>> remiss of many if they were just so quick to dismiss it because the Zodiac has never been identified. There's a lot
of interesting suspects in the Zodiac case and the Santa Rosa murderer has never been identified. So, and until
that happens, I think everything's on the table and every one of these guys for different arguments and for
sometimes the same argument make for very good suspects. Now, that will lead us to what we started off
talking about early on in this case. Something that law enforcement was openly speculating about in 1973,7475,
and even afterward. People that investigated these homicides have said to the media that there's a
chance that the Zodiac may be responsible for some or all of the Santa Rosa cases. What makes it even more
interesting is if you go beyond that. So you can argue that's the 30,000 ft view.
Zoom in my friends. You can look at one individual in particular. His name Arthur Lee Allen. And this this is the
angle that fascinates me to no end with this particular case. You could look at this case and say the Zodiac is the
Santa Rosa murder. You could look at this case and maybe say Arthur Lee Allen is the Zodiac and the Zodiac is the
Santa Rosa murder. I think you could also look at some of the details in Arthur Lee Allen's life, the Zodiac
series, the Santa Rosa series, and also say there's a chance that Arthur Lee Allen was not the Zodiac, but was the
Santa Rosa murderer or responsible for some of the Santa Rosa cases. I want that to be clear because I I I've seen a
lot of people that are so quick to dismiss him in these homicides by saying, "Well, no, no, no." No way was
he the Zodiac. I I actually don't like him that much for the Zodiac case. I think he's a good suspect. I think he
stays on the table. He should remain on the table until we solve that. He's a good suspect for many reasons that other
people have pointed out. Well, and I think if you watch the Netflix series, The Zodiac Speaking, it's hard to walk
away from that and not go there, there's something here. >> Well, exactly. I mean, it would be
difficult to walk away from the information we know about Arthur Lee Allen without it being pointed out to us
with that documentary and say there there may be something here. A lot of it is the timeline of things in the Zodiac
series lines up with Arthur Lee Allen's timeline. I think the Santa Rosa case timeline
lines up even better with Arthur Lee Allen than the Zodiac case does. Not willing to say that it is him, but I
think that when you take a look at it that there's a lot of interesting reasons why he has been discussed over
these years. And maybe it's simply because the investigators and detectives and the sheriff
Don Strippled it into existence back in the early 70s, but it's still discussed to this day.
Now, the investigators and detectives and sheriffs that took over this case years after word once Arthur Lee Allen's
name came about as being potential suspect for the Zodiac cases. They openly said they told the media that
Arthur Lee Allen is not their killer. He they they didn't give great reason how they or why they believe that he wasn't
their killer, but their statement was it was pretty strong simply saying to the media, Arthur Lee
Allen is not the Zodiac. Arthur Lee Allen is not our killer. Arthur Lee Allen is nothing but a pedophile and
he's he's neither of these serial killers. >> Right. That that was their stance on
Arthur Lee Allen. Now, we also need to to keep in mind that Robert Gaymith's book, The Zodiac Unmasked, while
entertaining and a very good book, just like the Truth About Jim documentary, and just like the Netflix Arthur Lee
Allen doc documentary, all three very entertaining. The two documentaries very speculative,
not a lot of hardcore facts and evidence. Gray Smith's book. There have been details in his book that have been that
have just been outright debunked, proven to be wrong, not factual, incorrect. Did
he make them up? I don't know. Did he lie? We don't know. But it was determined with some of the details on
him building his case against Arthur Lee Allen that some of that information just
simply wasn't correct. Captain, this case is endlessly fascinating. One from the very genesis of the case.
We don't know when it started. We don't know when this series of murders started, who is responsible, how
many people are responsible, but then you have this confluence of killers that all have ties to this area, ties to the
time period, and shared similar victimology in many of these cases. I think that this is a case to me, the
thing I loved about the truth about Jim documentary was not that it sold me that
Jim is the killer, more so that it I think that while it didn't examine these cases in great detail, it opened my eyes
to this series of murders that have gone unsolved for so long that I wasn't so so
quite aware of. I had some awareness of the case, but the documentary made me want to further dig in and have better
understanding of these cases, connected or not. And after reviewing them, it appears to me that some of these, it
would be very difficult to say that they're not connected. Some of these cases are absolutely I in my humble
garage opinion connected. And a reminder, obviously this case, these homicides are still open, still an open
investigation, and time is running out for these cases. Anybody that has any information at all,
the Soma County Sheriff's Office is still investigating. Please contact their cold case unit. That phone number
is 707-5652727 or you can reach out at sheriff-case@soma-county.org. or [Music] want to thank everybody for joining us
here in the garage for this four-part series. Thanks for telling your mother. Thanks for telling your brother. It
really does go a long way to supporting the show so we can continue to do deep dives into these cases. Until next week,
be good, be kind, and don't winner. [Music]

Santa Rosa Murders ////// A Confluence of Killers

Part 4 of 4

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The Santa Rosa Hitchhiker Murders is a series of unsolved homicides of young women that took place in the early 1970s. Many of the victims were confirmed or believed to have been hitchhiking in or around the Santa Rosa, California area. High School girls and College students were not safe. Often times the women and girls were not found until several days later. Many discovered in rural areas. If you have any information regarding these cases please submit a tip at sheriff-coldcase@sonoma-county.org or please call the Sonoma County Sheriff’s cold case unit at 1-707-565-2727

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the Santa Rosa murders, focusing on victims Carrie Anne Graham and Francine Trimble, and explores potential suspects like Ted Bundy and Arthur Lee Allen.

Key points

Identifying the victims. Carrie Anne Graham remained unidentified until 2015, complicating the investigation.
The significance of a single earring. A single shell earring found at the crime scene becomes a crucial piece of evidence.
The Mystery of Lisa Smith. Could Lisa Smith be a victim or a fictitious character in this case?
A Confluence of Killers. Exploring the numerous suspects linked to the Santa Rosa murders.
Frederick Manali's Dark Connection. Could an English professor be linked to the Santa Rosa murders?
Jack Alexander Boyin's DNA Link. A serial rapist's DNA connects him to a 1997 murder.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Time is the killer of evidence, not the killer of these two girls.

Discussion about the investigation's challenges over time.

7:34WatchOct 1, 2025

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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