Obsessed with Serial Killers ////// 790 | Forensic Files

[Music] [Music] m can you say how many people might be doing crimes like you were doing it
would be a guess but it's not it's far more than 35 it isn't that impossible in this Society it happens you were able to
appear like a ordinary person non-threatening to I lived as an ordinary person most of my life even
though I was living a parallel on increasingly sick life other life one victim let me back in the car I locked
myself out she opened the door for me my gun was under the seat what in the hell am I doing telling you that am I
looking am I am I masochist am I looking to be tormented further I'm trying to show you just
how awful this got how commanding these rages got I was raging inside there was just
incredible energies positive and negative uh depending on a mood that would trigger one or the other and
outside I looked troubled at times other times I looked Moody uh other times perfectly
Serene not very sane all right joining me in the garage I have Dr Scott Bond we're going to be
talking about serial killers here today doctor could you introduce yourself to our beautiful listeners let them know
where you are what kind of doctor are you and how you got interested in this field sure thing well yes I am Dr Scott
Bon I am based in Las Vegas Nevada although I spent most of my life uh living and working in New York City
my PhD is in criminology and uh I also have a background interestingly in media and
Communications so I I do study crime uh generally but specifically serial killers and I look at their motivations
what drives them the hungers the insatiable uh pathologies they have that lead them to kill but I'm also extremely
interested because of my media background in why we are so fascinated by them and I mean the public and True
Crime fans Etc well that's a good question why do you think that we are I mean it of course it's only a certain
percentage of our population I I know you know i' been living in the True Crime world with True Crime garage for
eight or so years and my book the deli murders but I I have friends in my Social Circles that are like yeah don't
talk to me about any of that stuff I want to stay as far away from it as possible but for the people that are
interested in this kind of stuff why why do you think that is yeah well you know
it is it is definitely a grow growing genre you know with all the podcasts and television networks like uh HLN uh
Discovery uh investigation discovery oxygen you know I mean it it definitely is growing but you're right not everyone
is interested in this stuff but there are those who are not only interested but you know downright uh even obsessed
with it and I think that um there's a you know like most things in life when you're really bored down and take a look
at it the uh uh it's more complicated than you might think on the surface and I think that when it comes to the
fascination with True Crime that's also true because at one level it's um it's it's adrenaline pumping entertainment
you know whether whether you're watching a Ted Bundy uh documentary or listening
to a podcast there's that you know there's that Adrenaline Rush that goes along with it and uh you know even as
kids you know we were we're attracted to haunted houses and and uh monster movies
and things like that and I've maintained that that true crime and and serial killers in particular are for uh many
adults what uh those things like fun houses and haunted houses are for kids and that is adrenaline pumping uh
entertainment um but there's a lot more to it than that of course and some of it
has to do with the um incomprehensible nature of what individuals uh we're talking serial killers here like a Ted
Bundy or or Jeffrey dmer or John Wayne gasy did to their victims you know complete strangers people that they
didn't even know and did these absolutely horrible heinous acts of abduction and torture and in some cases
even you know beyond killing dismemberment and and dmer even ate some of his victims and for most of us that
is just so incomprehensible that we're drawn to it to understand it because Psy logically I
believe many of us just don't like ambiguity we don't like not understanding and I think that there's
this uh this underlying psychological uh need to understand and if we can somehow
just wrap our minds around it then maybe it's not so terrifying after all I go around the country doing uh public
speaking performing a actually a oneman uh theatrical event serial killers with Dr Scott Bond and what I find is that my
audience almost most across the board is between 80 and 90% female and this is true of the True Crime audience in
general it's it's definitely a female skewing audience um in in my experience and women in particular when it comes to
True Crime and even serial killers I I believe there's an empathy Factor they empathize with uh both the victims
certainly many of which and the majority of which are often women in these stories but also then the empathy or the
need to understand the perpetrator and I've had so many women say to me I don't want to be the victim of the next Ted
Bundy help me to understand it help me to give me clues of what to look for how can I identify a psychopath how can I
identify a sociopath and so um I find that that many women are drawn to my shows for an educational reason and and
for for safety and and security so I think that is at play here as well and I think it goes even deeper
psychologically in that someone like a Jeffrey dmer or a Ted Bundy even get us to look at ourselves you know our own
Dark Inner instincts and and get us to question what I might I be capable of could I ever do something like that you
know you might hear someone say at work you know I can't stand my boss he's he's
a jerk um man I I'd love to kill that guy but we don't do it you know we don't do it the vast majority of us but these
people do they do they they kill uh complete strangers so it gets us to kind of look in the mirror even at ourselves
the Dark Side of ourselves to say what might I be capable of under duress under dire circumstances so I think it's
multifaceted you know multifaceted the interest with these uh diabolical characters but it's also not like
studying elephants right like you you with with serial killers I wouldn't say any from my experience anyway observing
them and learning about them over the years I've not found and and this is why you're a doctor and I'm not I've not
found one particular trait that they all seem to have right I mean or is there well that is a great question and um I
address this in in my show and you there there is a great myth out there that they're all sort of the same they're all
motivated by the same thing they're all these sort of dysfunctional young men like the tooth fairy or or uh Buffalo
Bill in the Hannibal Lector uh movies and it's just not it's just not the case they're very diverse they come in every
race ethnicity sexual orientation gender IQ socioeconomic status across the board
but to answer your question they do have one common characteristic and that common characteristic or common
denominator is the fact that for these individuals killing complete strangers serves some underlying
insatiable psychological need that is borne out through their lives in fantasy and over time becomes a hunger until it
reaches a Tipping Point and often times it takes 10 15 sometimes 20 years for this to happen where they reach a
Tipping Point where they can no longer just fantasize about killing they actually have to do it um so there is a
common factor and and serial killers don't kill because of the the the reason that most murders happen most homicides
are actually not premeditated murders they they are they are um reactionary re reactionary um or or
manslaughter really fall in the realm of manslaughter they're not they're not first-degree premeditated murders
they're not even second deegree murders where where the intent to kill uh most murders uh tend to be even accidents
where a couple of people get into a fight one gets angry punches the other the other one falls down hits their head
and and and dies um so manslaughters are actually the most the most common type serial killers therefore are a complete
aberration because there is the the desire and the premeditation and the and the deliberation to kill but taking it
even a step further most homicides result from Anger from uh some some uh uh something that that triggers anger
and and homicide as a result in the case of serial killers there's no anger involved these are emotionless murders
they're they're based upon once again a hunger to kill so they serial killers are truly an aberration in every way
from the the average murder if you will in uh in the United States yeah they're nine times out of 10 they're setting out
to go and kill they're they're hunting essentially yes they may not have they may not have a specific Target in mind
although some of them do some of them have a specific Target like like Dennis Raider who called himself Bine torture
kill I'm very very familiar with Dennis Raider studied him interviewed him and he would have a specific Target in mind
that he had been watching and and preparing for others are having intent to kill but they don't have a specific
Target Richard Ramirez the nightstalker for example in in California he would literally go into a neighborhood that he
didn't know at night and find an open window climb inside and kill whoever and whatever he found inside he had the
intent to kill but he didn't even know who or what he would be killing yeah Ramirez was looking for a house and an
opport an easy opportunity yes Raider Raider I think he called them what PJs projects yeah his I
think he would refer to him as PJs as projects yeah the thing that I've found I see time and time again even if it's
not obvious at the crime scene or obvious with the victim to me it appears that there's
always some kind of sexual sexual nature to or or they're sexually driven most serial killers well the ones that we are
most familiar with the btks since we're talking about him or the John Wayne gasy
there there's a there there's a a sexual aspect to many of these but but in fact
um you know it's it's hard to get definitive numbers on this kind of stuff uh because there's not even a really the
the true data base of of Serial murder per se I would say it's about 50 to 60% have a sexual component there are others
where there's just absolutely no sexual component at all uh for example you have
you have individual who are mission killers and they may say it's I have decided I'm giving myself the mission to
rid the world of homeless individuals homeless men and there's no sexual component there at all they simply their
fantasy you know going back to the fantasy need once again is that they must rid the world of these particular
um individuals uh you also have comfort they're they're called Comfort or gain killers and many times female serial
killers will fall into this C category and they will kill for purposes of for example um extorting individuals or um
The landl Killers who will take in people milk them with their social security and then kill them and bury
them in the backyard like Dorothy quente out in in California so no it's it's not
all it's not all sexual in nature but I would say yes probably about half you know half has a either a specific sexual
motive in the like Jeffrey dmer who was a heis lust killer that's the category he fell into and he truly obsessed
sexually for these for these men that he killed and he actually believed that he
was in love with him he was deluded you know his in his delusions he truly uh loved them the sexual uh component can
be direct and overt like that or it can be secondary in the case of BTK his primary objective or motive was really
power domination and control the extermination of others but then after the fact postmortem he would masturbate
on their bodies um so there was a sexual component but it wasn't really the driving force behind his murders and he
would sexually relive those crimes over and over again you know he talked about going in in this bizarre hobby of of
going and staying in a hotel right overnight so he could live out his in a oneman show live out his his fantasies
and fantasize about all this stuff yeah before and after and but but then I guess the thing is though you know we
talk about that they live in fantasy and and it's it's a characteristic that they share is
living out this fantasy but I wouldn't think that a greed motivated serial killer is living out a fantasy right
like if you're taking if you're taking in the elderly and you're killing them to collect your collect their social
security check I I can't imagine that they're fantasizing about that for an extended
period of time or any time at all they they are when you say fantasy you know we oftentimes we think of like a you
know a a sexual fantasy but it's not played out that way this is this is their compulsion they're compelled
compelled to do it and they do dream about it and they do think about it and they are obsessed with it um so um that
you know the fantasy can just can even just be it's it's an obsession but it's something that compels them that they
absolutely must do and they generally speaking have no control over it it reaches this Tipping Point where they
simply must act out on it and and again it varies by individual uh and it and it
varies by the nature of this fantasy or compulsion but it is something that they
have in common that that the thing that drives them to kill is uh is as I said is very different than than what is the
in a normal case uh of of homicide so so at dorothia pente for for example yes she did she did obsess and and and and
dream and think about how to get the next victim how to bring them in how to manipulate them and coers them in into
uh bringing them into her her Lair if you will I'm guessing that you're familiar with Roy hazelwood's work Roy
Hazelwood in fact um was a was a very good friend of mine uh sad yeah sadly he passed away a few years ago yeah but um
yeah he he um he was a very good friend of mine the way that I I go about um you
know profiling myself is very much drawn from his dichotomy of the organized versus disorganized killer yeah and so I
guess when I think of serial killers and think of fantasy I'm thinking of how Roy
Hazelwood described it and I thought I love the way that he described it of okay you have this this guy this this
sick pervert first guy has this fantasy and at some point he's you know he's the
director he's written the script he's the director and now he just needs somebody to play the role play the role
of the victim and so when I think of fantasy that's I guess I'm equating it to the way that Hazelwood described it I
think in dark dreams but yeah no that's interesting to hear about the uh the greed motivated serial killers and that
they do that they're compelled to do it speaking of compelled to do it of course
everybody's familiar with John Wayne gasey but I don't know how much you've studied him in particular quite a bit
I'm pretty familiar with with h gayy so one thing that I saw I think it was his I can't remember the gentleman's name
one of his defense attorneys wrote a book decades after the case um and years after gasy was uh executed but he
describes in his book a a situation where he he's in a confined space with gayy he said that at some point gayy
almost went into like this zombie like State and and he had said that he thought that that that is what gasy this
the similar state that he would have been in during the course of committing some of these homicides and one thing
that I found very strange there was um another gentleman who's no longer with us I can't remember his name either
forgive me a book called The Last I think it was called the last victim he traded letters with gasy and went to
visit him in prison and he described the exact a very similar thing with gasy many years later obviously where he said
gasy tried to grab him and attack him during the course of their visit and he he said the same thing where gas's face
almost changed it contorted and and he went into like this zombie like almost Frankenstein is kind of uh State and
gayy said that that he doesn't remember the killings which I don't believe but uh I tend to think everybody's guilty
and more guilty than they they will ever admit but have in your work in your research have you found any of that do
you believe any of that to be true oh uh yes yes well first of all you know gasy
was a a pathological liar you know you have to take a lot of what he said with you know a gr almost all of them are
right like yeah well many of them yeah many of them not all but but um but but yes many of them are are pathological
liers but in in terms of this like flipping a switch um and and almost becoming a different person yeah I am
very much aware of that phenomenon and have had many people describe it to me in in you know in encounters with these
individuals and one that um I think it it it Bears uh mentioning because it's just so profound is um back to Dennis
Raider once again his his daughter I don't know if you know Carrie rosson she wrote the book serial Killer's daughter
which became a bestseller she was in her 30s when she found out that her father was you know one of the most diabolical
killers of the of the 20th century and you can imagine the uh you know the psychological implications of that and
how you know troubled her well when her father was arrested in in 2004 she cut off all communication with
him she had not spoken to him until very recently because uh there are cold cases
that they're attempting to connect to uh Raider and um so she got back involved and at the at the request of police and
actually agreed to go and sit with her father to see if she could get any information about these cold cases well
so Carrie throughout her life had believed that this man was you know a loving father and had no reason to
believe that there that there was anything um strange about him and yet when she went to see him this time she
said she saw him transform into to BTK for the first time when she started to question him about these potential cold
cases she said his eyes blackened and hardened and he became someone different right in front of her so that's very
much what you're describing do you prefer studying somebody like a BTK who's able to articulate some of some of
the stuff behind the mask for us you know what I mean like I I think John Douglas said that Ed keer was always one
of the most interesting to him because he was one of the few that could really offer true
Insight because of his intelligence yeah absolutely and and I think dmer was was
was very interesting for that reason because it almost seemed like he was trying to do some some introspection and
you know I don't know whether you want to call it soul searching but but in the you know in in his during incarceration
you know he seemed to try to understand himself and BTK or Raider definitely well of course he loves to talk about
himself because he thinks he's the most interesting guy he knows yeah but he really tried to understand and he told
me he wanted to understand this compulsion that led him to kill but he he really couldn't understand it and
that's why he came up with the term factor x you probably heard that term factor x which is what he calls his own
compulsion to kill you know and and I had many conversations with Roy Hazelwood about BTK he he told me that
he thought that Raider was in fact the most Stone Cold psychopath that he ever that he ever encountered and he you know
he interviewed many if not most of them and Raider you you mentioned his use of autoerotic fantasy where he would relive
his his killings and he actually kept a a a trophy chest in in the house buried called the he called it the mother load
of trophies and when he felt that that itch rising up to kill he would dress up dolls as you said and then vividly
reenact his killings including bondage and fetishism and and strangulation then of course masturbation and the
incredible thing about or even more incredible than the act itself was why he did it he he tried to control his own
compulsion to kill because he didn't want to be controlled by it so it's the ultimate irony he's the control freak
playing God and he would not allow himself to be controlled by his own compulsions to kill therefore he used
this autoerotic fantasy as a way to try to keep it under control which I just find so fascinating and um disturbing
but at the same time it's because he's willing to be so introspective that I was able to unearth you know this this
explanation I think he also referred to it as cubism right where he when he would be Dennis Raider and and hide
factor x and then when he would allow factorx to to come out and take over yeah well it's it's psych I mean in
psychological terms it we we call it compartmentalization but but he had his own word for it you're right cubing and
and so and that's what allowed him to not have any sort of cognitive dissonance or even acknowledge any kind
of contradiction or irony you know you say well how how can you be this killer and torturer and also be the loving
father on one hand and the and the church leader the the president of your Lutheran Church Association and boy
scout uh leader on the other and he would simply say they're just three different things you know those are
three different things there there's no crossover so when he's in BTK room he is
not in daddy room or in uh you know Lutheran Church room so to him there is no contradiction which of course allows
him to sleep like a baby at night because he doesn't see any any you know any any contradictions there I don't
know if Roy Hazelwood was a part of this or not I'd be interested to hear your your thoughts but one thing that I
thought was fascinating when reviewing BTK it was John Douglas that said that when when they when he was still at
large right like a long we're going back many years now but when they were still
hunting BTK he said they sat down the profilers SAT down and round tried to Round Table discussion a profile of BTK
and he said anytime they attempted to do it the room would always end up end up in an argument because nobody they could
never agree on a profile for somebody like Dennis Raider yeah I I do remember Roy talking about that and and that's
one of the reasons he even among serial killers Raider kind of stands out as um a bit unique for a number of reasons and
and one is that you know trying to control his own compulsion to kill and the autoerotic fantasy but another is
that long the tremendously long period that would that would um uh transpire in between his murders you know typically
it you know might be weeks or months but in the case of raider it was years you know and that's just almost
unprecedented if anything it tends to be the opposite they tend to escalate you know like Bundy escalated over time uh
where whereas Raider did the opposite and um you know so again that's that's another one of the reasons why you know
he's just uh you know he's he's rather interesting in terms of uh the ilk you know the category there of serial
killers [Music] [Music] well and the thing too that that strikes me as unique about Dennis Raider Rex
Herman those two in particular I have a hard time thinking of other serial killers that didn't just completely
spiral out of control right like they where Bundy started off very organized and he eventually turns into like this
almost frenzy killer and mhm you look at and usually that's their downfall and when I say downfall meaning leading to
their their capture um dmer did it even even Ed keer who might have the highest IQ out of all of the serial killers that
that I can think of even he turned into a frenzy killer I've always equated it to like a drug with with like like Bundy
in particular dmer keer that it that it's a drug and you once you start chasing that dragon M it gets harder and
harder to catch and you need more and just like heroin you need you need more and more and more to get you there and
you're always trying to get as close to the edge without going over why do you think that somebody like a Raider or or
the Long Island serial killer why do you think that they do you think on a long enough timeline they would eventually
become frenzy Killers or do you think that it's just they were able to avoid that somehow I'm very familiar with the
U you know the Long Island serial killer i i in fact I profiled him back in 2011
and there's an interesting story that I'll tell you about there but we we don't know in the case of hman I think
there are many many other bodies out there that we simply don't even know about yet um in in the case of raider
Raider again power and control everything was about power and control and so he was attempting even to control
himself he he's he's a control freak which is what makes a bit different and of course as he got older it's
interesting Raider tended to pick victims who weren't quite as uh young youthful and vigorous you know he tended
to go for older women uh as time went on so it's almost like he was aware of his
own mortality or limitations to a certain extent but it is one of the things that makes him stand out because
as you said many of them do escalate and I think your your uh use of the of the drug uh addiction uh uh analogy is very
apt uh because I had I had David burkowitz the Son of Sam ex explained to me with each murder now his fantasy
fantasy is that he thought he was serving Satan he believed that he was you know was killing at the behest of
his master Satan and but each time he went out there he was hoping that this particular killing would live up to his
fantasies that he had beforehand but it never did and so he would be compelled to do it again and again and again so it
is very much like you said chasing that Dragon chasing that narcotic High however interestingly when I wrote about
this and burkowitz found out that I Ed the drug addiction analogy to describe him he didn't like it at all he he
seemed to prefer the uh the devil made me do it because it sound because to him it made him sound uh more like he
couldn't control it it was beyond his control whereas the the drug analogy made him feel weak or or uh that he was
responsible and he didn't like that very much so as as much as I believe the drug
addiction analogy is is is very useful uh Son of Sam didn't like it very much yeah it makes it easier for him to
rationalize his own actions if he wasn't in control right exactly the devil made
me do it yeah yeah yeah yeah and and he's he's certainly a whole different specimen let's go back to Rex a lot of
people would agree with you that there's there's some bodies out there um oh yeah
oh yeah give us a little more thought a little more detailed thought on on Rex and potential other victims you know
there's some speculation I think he and maybe a a brother owned a property at a state together or something of that
nature um he he owned property at different times in Las Vegas as well as in uh South Carolina and I I've been
very involved with this so I let me take you back a little bit this all started was December of
2010 when the the so-called Gilgo 4 were we you know were discovered there in that uh remote area on the uh South
Shore of Long Island four young female bodies and it was quickly determined that they were missing sex workers and
it was also quickly determined that there was a serial killer they were all killed by the same hand because three of
them were wrapped in matching camouflage burlap and the fourth was bound in a belt and they were all arranged together
there and and um at that time I was teaching uh just outside of Manhattan New York at Drew University and and I
was doing my own research into serial killers and interviewing the likes of Son of Sam and and BTK and so I wasn't
surprised when a couple of months later when when an additional seven bodies were discovered nearby there in Gilgo
Beach that the New York Times uh newspaper reached out to me and they asked me to put together an extensive
psychological and behavioral profile of this unknown killer and I predicted at that time that we would be looking at a
uh middle-aged white male family man father of a couple of adult children and that he would be professional Highly
Educated highly meticulous very persuasive able to manipulate and uh um control these these young women I even
predicted that he would be a gun collector and and a hunter but also a sadist and that he would live right
there in the neighborhood of his sacred burial ground as I was calling it um on Gilgo Beach and uh and here's where it
gets gets back to a couple of individuals that we've been talking about because I was I I went to Roy I
went to Roy Hazelwood and I said Roy look at the profile I put together what do you think and he said he said I think
you're dead on he said I I think you're we're dealing with a sexual stist an insatiable killer a narcissist and very
much like BTK and I said well thank you Roy because that's exactly what I'm thinking and in fact I'm corresponding
right now with Raider so I'm going to run this by him as well and and being the complete narcissist and psychopath
that Raider is he was more than happy to play my game and um so I was sort of his
Clarice Starling to his Hannibal Lector and I said oh you know teach me oh oh wise one and uh and Raider said to me he
said this man that you're looking for will absolutely be a clone he is going to be a copycat and he meant a clone of
himself you know a sexual satus very much like himself which is exactly what I thought and so um I went ahead you
know published my my my profile but then as as uh you know as we know the years went by and it became somewhat cold this
case over time or at least on the surface and there were even allegations of corruption there in the police
department on Long Island but lo and behold when the new regime came in last summer all of a sudden one day my phone
just blew up and my computer and I was being contacted by journalists all over the United States and all over the over
the world saying have you heard Rex hurman has been arrested for these murders and your profile was 100%
accurate and well I was you know obviously uh gratified to hear that but mostly I was happy that someone had been
um apprehended and the more I got into it the more I learned the more I realized that my profile really had
penetrated his psyche because you know you you he was the white middle-aged guy with you know children living openly in
plain sight but he's he's an architect in terms of precision education he was trained in engineering mathematics um uh
and design and he was his own salesman because he had his own architectural firm he was selling his own ideas so
highly persuasive and articulate and recently I don't know if you're aware of this just a couple weeks ago they
Unearthed his blue BL prints for murder they they they as they found in his in his house These Blueprints for murder So
Not only was he doing blueprints for buildings uh architecture but blueprints for murder so he was this incredibly
precise detail oriented individual that I predicted and he was a gun collector and a big game hunter he hunted bear and
and uh and would skin them you know after the fact and probably the you know the biggest thing of all is he lived
literally in viewing distance of the uh of the beach of the of the burial ground
and I have no doubt he went back there to fantasize and relive and um and and I have no doubt that there are additional
bodies I'm sure he did not stop killing people ask me all the time do you think he stopped killing in 2010 when his
barrial ground was discovered and absolutely not um he's just been charged with two more murders just a few weeks
ago and unfortunately I have a feeling that there are burial grounds out there that have not even been discovered yet
do you think he killed the Asian male the Baby D Jane do number three who's you know that's a great question you
know you could make a case you could make a um a case where he picked up a sex worker and it ended up being a sex
worker in you know in drag um and he and and that one was killed differently because because that the male had his
head bashed in so you could potentially see where hman could have gotten angry if he didn't realize he picked up a sex
worker in Drag and Bash their head in that's a possibility in terms of the baby um you know there I've said this
before there's no you know there's no sex worker daycare out there and it's not uncommon for for sex workers to have
their you know their children in a nearby room or in the car or something like that while they're doing their work
so yeah I could I can definitely Envision scenarios where he could be responsible for poent potentially all
those bodies with those and if if he is in fact respons ible for those it appears it's just an Evidence situation
where we just don't have the evidence to yeah well you know there were partial remains of two
bodies um uh in Manville and then right there in Gilgo Beach and those two have Jessica Taylor and I forget the other
one's name have now been you know link have been he's been charged he's been charged with the murders so um uh
already they've um linked you know uh some of those well and that's interesting so not just on the
you know to kind of bookend his serial killing career if if we want to call it that on the one side you have the
question did he continue to kill after 2010 you say yes I think many would agree with you on that but I I believe
that the the average age when when these guys typically start killing is is what
mid mid 20s early to to mid 20s yeah yeah yeah I the 20 normally at some point during the 20s whether it's you
know 20 years old or in the case of BTK he was 28 so he was kind of like a late bloomer if you will but uh but Rex would
be approximately 60 years of age so and I you referenced Jessica Taylor who I believe she she disappeared
in 2003 M he would have still been he would have still been on the older side than
so how early do you think he started oh I I think the early 90s one one of the one of the uh victims that he's been
linked to did disappear in the uh early 90s so I think he's been active at least
since you know uh say 9192 going undetected like this I I have a hard time believing that he was only killing
when his wife happened to be out of state agreed totally totally agreed in fact he traveled he you know he was a
hunter and he traveled so it's not inconceivable able that there are bodies out there that he he was responsible for
on his hunting trips that haven't even been linked to him yet and I I I really believe that when when all is said and
done uh you know he's he's waiting awaiting trial now and there there there are all these open investigations in Las
Vegas in South Carolina um you know he's potentially linked to so many different
um cold cases that he may one day actually rival Joel riffkin in New York as the most uh prolific serial killer in
in this in the state of New York history Joel riffkin had 17 victims and and I I
it's not un it's not unlikely that uh that one day hman may actually rival that and aside from the shame that
Raider brought to his fan like I like I don't know I don't want to get into a whole long discussion on do these
individuals are they even capable of love I think that I think that Raider thinks that he is but it would be a much
different a much different love than than you and I possess uh than you know I think Raider thinks that he can do
that because I think he said in his book with um was it Kathleen ramsland um he had expressed that that was the only
major fear that he had for getting caught was was his wife and kids and so Rex would fall into that same category
and if he truly is like Raider thinks he would be a clone of of raider Raider to
me if he didn't have a wife and kids seems like he was just itching to brag about all of this
stuff and now that he's been detected caught apprehended and living Behind Bars he it seems like no shortage of
people that he's willing to talk with what agreed he um you know he needs he needs a a grandstand um from which to
pre from uh and and you know which is why even when he was killing he was engaging in his Terror campaign where he
was sending letters to the news media um and law enforcement and playing this game of you know catch me if you can
even giving them Clues and sending them poems and and ciphers and all kinds of stuff um because that was just part of
the game it it just made it more exciting for him and especially that that he could show look look you know
I'm I'm I'm the Puppet Master here you have you have no idea who I am and I'm playing with you um and it just you know
gave him that excitement well once that was taken away and he was unmasked and taken into custody well he just stepped
onto a different stage now I'm going to uh horrify you I'm going to make you relive these murders I'm going to make
the victims relive the murders and I'm going to tell you just how great I think I am and how what fools you are because
it took you 30 years to catch me so yeah he he needs that that Pulpit if you will
and um he'll find it any way he can and and and so now you know this irony didn't Escape me as I as I was uh
corresponding with him and I'm sure as Kathleen ramsland also was corresponding with him uh she was aware of the fact
that we're in a way we're feeding his ego you know we're giving him what he wants we're giving him attention um but
at the same time uh valuable things can be learned from from uh the interactions with an
individual like this but he you know he's so grandiose he he told me he said he said people must study me you know
the world must comprehend me you know I me he's so incredibly grandiose and full
of himself yeah he he certainly has a strong opinion of uh of himself but with Rex with with how they you know in btk's
words a clone of Dennis Raider MH I really thought we would see a similar thing where once he's picked up he'll
just start the flood gates will open up and he'll just start talking to police but clearly that's not happened I don't
think that there's maybe his defense team is the only people on this planet that think that uh that there is a
defense and and that we live in a world where he doesn't get convicted but once he's convicted of several of these
murders and the appeals start to run out do you think that that somebody like do
you think that Rex will just start telling us okay this is what I've done this is the here's my victims here's
where they are here's what I was what because he had we talk about compulsion he had that compulsion to taunt the
family members of the victims right he couldn't stop himself from calling them that's right that's right so he he does
want to talk he does want an audience yes I think yes he's cut out very much the same cloth as BTK I think he has
similar you know grandiosity and and and attention needs and and control definitely he he's a what's known as a
power and control killer very much like BTK it's it's not about the sex per se it's about the domination control
extermination of of human life I mean BTK told me in no uncertain terms when he kills he is God it's not that he
wants to be God it's not that he tries to be God or he thinks he might be he is God in his own in in his in his own mind
and you can't really get more you know of power and control freak than that but to answer your question I I think hman
is holding that card back he is a power and control freak too and I think he is going to do whatever gives him that
gratification that his ego needs and right now he's holding it back he's saying oh no no I didn't do this he may
be thinking down the line you know there's cases out there that they don't know about there may be an opportunity
for me to bargain here you know the way the Green River Killer and and Bundy did
about you know about other cases so I think he's holding that card back is it possible down the road where he plays
out his hand and there's nothing left except to step on the grand stand and and like like BTK has done and say look
at me look what I did I killed 25 people well hopefully not but you know and and
and brag about it I I could definitely foresee that down the road but I think that's a card he's you know he's holding
back at this point out of out of all the serial killers that you've studied who is the one that either you're intrigued
the most by or or is or is a complete mystery to you even after you've uh spent time studying them maybe it's
somebody that we're we're the masses are not so well aware of uh who who is that
for you great really good question and um I would have to say Richard Ramirez the
nightstalker and the reason is he he's such it's it's hard to pin him down in terms of of exactly what his motivations
were really he falls into a category that's known as a thrill killer and and the Zodiac would be a would be another
one that would fit in this category uh as well as Israel Keys up up in ataska these are
individuals that it's not about the killing it's not the Act of Killing it's the
excitement that that the killing and leading up to the killing and the process of it almost like a like like a
big game hunter that it provides them and and for for Richard Ramirez even murder was not enough it you know we we
touched on this earlier he would go into a house in in the dark climbing the window he had no idea what was going to
be inside there could be 10 Dobermans inside there could be 10 people with guns he had no idea well that just upped
the ante for him it just upped the thrill and once he was inside he would then improvise and decide what to do
because he was happy to Rob he was happy to rape he was happy to do whatever would might give him satisfaction so for
example he would improvise and this is you know it's a horrible thing to to talk about but let's say he finds a a
married couple inside he might decide on a whim to tie the man up in a chair and
forc the the husband to watch as he repeatedly raped and tortured the wife wife and then he when he was satisfied
with that he would then kill her in front of the man and then and then and then kill the man so it it's it's just
so incomprehensible that even he didn't know what he was going to do he he would
improvise on the spot and that kind of mind that kind of of Twisted thinking and need is just it's just so almost in
incomprehensible and and even the the the fact taking it a step further is again even for his own safety he didn't
know what he was going to find whereas people like Bundy and and and John Wayne gasy and and Raider were meticulous
planners they wanted to be in control of every detail they wanted to be the master of the of the of the moment
whereas in the case of Ramirez was completely the opposite he wanted to up the ante and make it riskier for himself
so it's just so uh it's so hard to wrap your mind around yes so little can control I mean he was smoking crack I
mean yeah oh yeah he very un I'm so I'm so glad you mentioned that serial killers typically are not substance
abusers now Doo was an alcoholic so that that that you know that was um you know
an an exception there but typically the high is the killing and they don't need the drugs and the alcohol but you're
right Ramirez on top of everything else he was also an alcoholic and drug addict
I don't want to get into something that's impossible to answer but but you're an expert so I'll throw it out
there since we're talking about Ramirez one thing that's always that's always like stuck in the back of my mind with
him is when he talked about his older cousin and I think the cousin spent some time in Vietnam and how much do you
think do you think if he never had that relationship is he still does he still turn into the monster that he ended up
yes you're talking about where the um he came back from Vietnam and and he was showing him photos of terrible things
that they did to Vietnamese women and and RZ became sexually aroused and and um yeah it if that hadn't awoken the the
monster inside of him something else would have uh you know Raider had a somewhat similar um Evolution when he
was about 10 I don't know if you if you know this story when he was about 10 he was visiting his his grandmother's farm
and he witnessed her killing a chicken she was going to cook it for dinner and as he as she chopped the the head off
the chicken and the blood squirted out he became sexually aroused Raider we're talking about so many of these
individuals have some sort of an experience like that that sort of awakens something in them and and and
what happened and this happened for Bundy it that I'm aware of it happened for dmer um BTK uh Ramirez where
somewhere around adolescence sex sexual pleasure and sadism and and uh dismemberment and
blood and torture somehow became all intertwined um and became sexually arousing to them it's not I don't think
it's a it's an absolutely necessary component to the evolution of a serial killer but it it definitely is a trait
that you that you see so something awakens this in them and um you know the majority of these individuals are
psychopaths meaning that they are essentially unplugged emotionally from the world um can't feel the normal range
of emotions um but they can feel excitement you know they can feel physical pleasure and physical
excitement oftentimes that's what you know what compels them and um and and drives them they're also very visual
that like like many of and this just grosses me out beyond anything and it just I mean it gives me the Shivers to
even think about but but I've I've seen several of them reference the one of the things that
drove them to do this again and again was the the look of Terror on their victim's face you know BTK talked about
getting sexually aroused at the the fantasy of tying a woman up to the train tracks and watching her as she as she
goes into a state of Terror as the train gets closer and closer and she can't do
anything about it and um yes I think Jill Bear or however we want to say his name uh Juber he expressed that when
once he was in prison saying that it was the look on the boy's face when he was doing horrible things to him and I I
think Joseph Duncan said something like that as well um for for Rex I always thought even before they caught him I
always thought that there was there was something something to his perversion of
the look on the face of the sex worker when they realize he tricked them oh yeah yeah no I I I I absolutely think
that that's the case I think it was true for Joel riffkin and uh you know who also prayed on runaways and sex workers
BTK Bundy uh know absolutely it's it's it's it gets to that power and control again you know it's the shock it's like
they they they when when the victim realizes oh my god I've I've I've been I've been taken in and and and you know
this is this is it you know my my my life is over um and I think that definitely escalates the uh the fantasy
and I really I wanted to comment on something you said earlier you know in your conversations about Roy Hazelwood
when you were saying that you know it's almost like a they're like a director of
a movie and I think where he where Roy might have got that gotten that is is uh is BTK
because uh I asked I asked him when he killed uh and I guess for your for your audience's purposes uh btk's first
murder was actually um a mass murder of four members of a of a of a home the otos Latino family and terribly he he
saved the um the 11-year-old girl for last uh made her made her watch as he killed the other members of her family
and then he took her in the basement and and and hanged her from the from the uh
um uh ceiling uh Rafters in you know in the basement just let her dangle there and die and and watched her sat in a
chair right across from her eye to eye and watched her her die and as unimaginable or as incomprehensible as
it might seem and I and I asked him I said you know why why did you do that and it and it and he said exactly that
he says I was a movie director he said I I'm like I'm like Martin scorsi or or Steven Spielberg and I envisioned that
scene I directed it in my mind a thousand times with Josephine and specifically Josephine because he had
been watching her and he said when she died when I watched the light of Life extinguish In Her Eyes in that movie
scene I knew that I was God and again that gets to the just incredible um nature of power and control pathology
that he had but he he definitely used and would repeatedly use that movie director analogy and he said that his
fantasy mind was was was so vivid it was better than any Technicolor movie um his
in his his fantasies the whole basement thing with him too because he he would talk about even as an adult going to his
parents house and masturbating in the basement uh just really weird stuff with with him and of course weird stuff with
all of them the the visual thing um here's a something I never even thought about until just this moment but has
there ever been a blind serial killer a blind serial killer that's interesting um uh no one comes to my mind me neither
yeah but that would be pretty hard to pull off you know I think that would be rather you know rather difficult to to
pull off nothing no nothing comes to mind but but in terms of the visual you know many of them many of them love to
draw you know many I mean John Wayne gasy of course being the you know the king there you know with his Pogo
paintings the clown paintings and so forth Raider loved you know loved to sketch uh Ramirez would sketch of course
human being an architect he's a you know very skillful uh skillful artist um so it's interesting the visual you know the
visual aspect of it and and then also visually pornography being a you know a stimulant um so many of them talked
about how pornography was was part of their uh uh you know early Evolution into this that they would they would
look at at pornography and and then fantasize about you know death and murder and things like that a
conversation I've had found myself in several times uh in recently in the in the last couple years any way you know
in in in my neck of the woods I'm looked at as somewhat of an expert on on these
things so when people have questions they they true crime or serial killer they usually bring them to me and the
one that I get a lot or or at least one that sticks out is uh hey Nick why why why are we
seeing less serial killers these days than in the 70s 80s maybe even in the 90s and and my one of my quick answers
is that I think that it's not for a lack of it's not for a shortage of these types it's more that I think in a lot of
cases we're catching these guys after victim number one is that true do we have do we think
we have less serial killers today in the last five 10 years than we than we did from what we saw in the 70s and the 80s
absolutely absolutely and um you know this is a question I'm asked all the time and and the based upon
the uh pop culture depiction of these individuals and how prevalent they are in our entertainment media and in our
news media there is this erroneous opinion among among so many people that they're far more prevalent than they
really are um and in fact no more than one to 2% of all homicides that occur in the United States every year are
attributable to serial killers and there's currently about 20,000 homicides uh a year in the US the number is
actually going down uh contrary to a lot of of uh news media uh uh uh statements
to the to the opposite but it is going down but it's about there's so that what what are we looking at we're looking at
200 to 400 at the most of those being serial killer victims now if you go back to the 70s and 80s which is often
considered the the Heyday if you will of serial killers when the bundies and the
btks were out doing their thing and and the John Wayne gases um in the 1960s it's been documented that there were at
least 650 serial killers active during the 1970s that number escalated to 800 or
more by the 1980s but then by the 1990s the number started to drop off and it's been dropping off steadily ever since
current currently in the 2020s the decade we're in right now there have been documented somewhere between let's
say two to three dozen so you can see how just how far down the uh the numbers have gone and I would totally agree with
you it's not that this pathology this this this need the the the the Twisted combination of of Nature and nurture
that leads people to become serial killers I don't believe that's left Humanity I wish it had but I don't think
it has I think what what's happened is that first and foremost our friends like Roy Hazelwood and John Douglas and Bob
wrestler and some of the others thanks to them in in the 1970s they developed these new te techniques for
identification profiling and ultimately apprehension and when you develop tools good tools that work you find a lot of
what you're you're looking for you know up until the 1970s it was very difficult
for them to even link crime scenes they didn't even know they had serial killer and suddenly now you know you're you're
they were better able to do it and then what happened is they got a lot better at apprehension with better policing
techniques and of course the big changer there came in the form of science DNA in
1986 when when DNA was was first used and now you've got the ultimate GameChanger because now you can you can
link someone to a crime scene where there was never you know any other physical evidence available and many of
these IND individuals like BTK left their DNA readily at crime scenes you know like that you know his his seen
after he would masterbate never thinking that could ever be linked to him and so
now people like the Golden State killer BTK uh the Long Island serial killer as he was matched through DNA hair hair and
U on on the victims um these individuals are being apprehended um many of them cold cases that had been open for
decades I'll take it a step further I think that um that all of the the True Crime programming and podcasts like like
like this one you know that that we're right now um that people love it served an educational purpose and people are
just not as Cavalier as they were in in the 60s and 70s uh people don't leave their doors open um they don't invite
strangers in you know and God forbid go Chris uh hitchhiking across the country with Wayne gasy or or Ted Bundy you know
we're just a much more Vigilant Society so when you put all these factors together I think it's just much more
difficult now to be a successful prolific serial killer than it was back in the in the 7s and before and and I do
believe I think you're I think you're right on the money I think that fledgling W to be serial killers are
being apprehended after their first murder before they even reach serial killer status and a likely candidate
there which is also ripped right out of the headlines is um is is Brian koberger
who's been charged with the mass murder of uh four students in Idaho I've looked
at his background I've looked at his Evolution his profile it's very similar to Bundy and and BTK and even uh
heuerman and I think had he not been apprehended foolishly stupidly a rookie error that you know he left a knife
sheath there with touch DNA on it if he yeah yeah yeah if if he hadn't been apprehended I think there's an excellent
chance he would have gone on to become a uh a serial killer talking about the the
70s and the 80s the golden you know era if you want to call it for just the sheer number of serial killers at the
time and I I'm probably going to butcher his name but uh I think it was Peter vonsky
who I don't know if you're familiar with his work but I he's another friend of mine Peter's a friend of mine I need to
get your circle somehow um everybody I'm reading you you you've been Chums with but uh the I think he said that he cited
Vietnam as as a a pretty major factor for uh and if I'm speaking out of you know if I'm getting this incorrect feel
free to cut me off but I think he he cited something like Vietnam the Vietnam War for maybe driving those numbers up
because we it's a situation where men go off to war fathers go off to war they some of them don't come back and
we've we've certainly seen a direct correlation between parents and and uh serial killers and some of the fathers
don't come back but some of the ones that do come back they're all messed up and then they mess up their kid yeah
well you know that gets that gets back to the uh nature versus nurture debate you know um are they nature are they
born that way nurture are they environmentally conditioned or ized into it and and and I yeah I think Peter's
absolutely right I think there's a number of of societal factors that can contribute to that and sometimes even
directly um there there was a uh uh I forget his name exactly um but this is a while back there was a um a soldier uh
and this was during the Iraq War he was trained to be a sniper but when he got over to Iraq he wasn't utilized that way
he was he was given a very mundane job and he was so resentful of the fact that that the government had trained him
spent all this money and trained him and not utilized his skills that when he came back to the United States he
decided that he was going to utilize those skills that had been um uh uh not used properly and he decided to rid Los
Angeles of homeless men so he became a sniper and he started killing uh homeless men in in Los Angeles so
there's a you know there a direct result of of of the way he felt that he had been you know misused during the war
have you studied the I70 killer CU I feel like he's very very and I'm talk not talking about the truck driver one
I'm talking about the uh the the man that went into a few different businesses and in and out within minutes
and and kill somebody in the store I I find him to be incredibly distinctly different than
most of the serial killers that I'm familiar with yeah I I'm not as I mean I know the case
but I'm not familiar with the a lot of the details of it um but uh uh you know I I know what you're saying I know that
that there's bit seems to be a bit of an aberration yeah he's he's one that I've
I've always really wanted to see a proper profile put together on him but I don't know that his crimes lend
themselves to to a profile you've done profiles where what would prevent you from being able to put together a
profile on a particular serial killer well you know tip of the hat to you know to our our our friend Roy Hazelwood here
I'm a big proponent of the belief that the crime scenes tell the story you can derive so much information
psychologically and and from a behavioral uh uh standpoint from the crime scene that they leave and
particularly the way that they they dispose of the um uh of the of the victim so the more information that is
available the more evidence that's available at the crime scene the more Vivid your profile is going to be and
because Rex hman for example was so meticulous and so organized in the way that he uh uh left his victims um and
and creating his own sacred burial ground the way it did it gave me a plethora if you will of information to
to work from so the less evidence the less crime scene evidence you have the more difficult it is to profile and you
already referenced four Thomas Harris characters uh in our conversation so that makes me the the crime scene
information makes me think of Will Graham Hannibal lector's Nemesis who is would look at a crime scene and say this
is my try to put himself in the mind of the killer saying this is my design yeah
exactly exactly and that is very much what you do and that's what I learned from Roy um and and uh which is why he
was such such a Visionary you know such such a genius I mean they all they all added their things you know I mean
whether it's uh Douglas John dougas and and Bob wrestler and you know and others
wrestler is the one that's actually credited with using the term serial killer for the first time in the FBI and
and that's actually did you did you ever hear the story of of how you know where
where where that came from where what came from uh the term serial killer and how wrestler used it the the first time
yeah because I think back in the day they they called it mass murder which is yeah they just lumped them together they
up until this 1973 they just lumped them together with with uh Mass murderers or what we would
today would look at as like a public shooter so that you know I live in Las Vegas so the the the uh the October
first killer here um would be lumped together with a with a Ted Bundy and boy oh boy you you cannot have two more
different individuals than that the motives and and the and the rationale and the and the reasons are just you
know completely opposite but anyway um yeah it's kind of an interesting little story is um wrestler I think he was over
in the UK and he was lecturing at a university over there and and he was trying to explain how serial killers
work and he says it's almost like like a like a like like serial like a a Serial
um entertainment and he's thinking back to the times like in the 1940s and 1950s
when kids on a Saturday afternoon would go to the theater and watch the the The Adventures of uh Flash Gordon or or
Superman or something like that and and then would have to go back every Saturday to see the latest installment
they call them Cals so he said that these individuals are like serial killers they just do it again and again
and again which I I thought was kind of an interesting little you know anecdote well I'll tell you what let's end on a
light note here something much more fun I cannot avoid this I it cannot be uh ignored for one more second forgive me
if you think that I'm an idiot because most of the time I am Dr Scott Bond please tell me that your parents were
huge ACDC fans and named you somewhat after Bon Scott I wish I wish I could say that
that's the case but uh no it's a it's a a coincidence but uh it's a coincidence that I like because I happen to be big
ACDC fans brilliant conversation thanks so much for talking with me today how can
our listeners learn more about what you do do you have anything that you want to
promote yeah I sure do um I'm currently touring the country with uh my oneman theatrical event which is called serial
killers with Dr Scott Bond but if you want to find out where I'm going to be performing at a theater near you you can
go to my website which is dob.com and I'll spell that do CB nn.com and the whole tour schedule is there
along with um uh the dates cities and um and links to purchase tickets and I promise you a an exciting thrilling and
chilling evening where I'm going to share anecdotes from all my experiences with these individuals we're going to go
into their motivations their desires and I always do a live Q&A session with the
audience where I um take questions and we always have a lot of fun with that because it always seems that people have
you know that that one question about serial killers that they've always been burning uh uh to ask and uh so it it it
proves to be a pretty uh pretty fun evening perfect hey thanks so much for your time today and and uh let's do this
again sometime sounds great thank you for having me [Music] [Applause] [Applause]
[Music]

Obsessed with Serial Killers ////// 790

Part 1 of 1

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Does America and other nations have an obsession with Serial Killers? Many have asked that question. I say no, but what is clearly obvious is many people have a very deep fascination with Serial Killers. Serial murderers are a rare breed. Many people who follow true crime will typically go through a phase when they first discover some of these types when one wants to learn more or maybe as much as possible about these rare killers. This week we are joined by Dr. Scott Bonn, a PhD criminologist to discuss serial killers and learn a little bit more about them. Dr. Scott Bonn has provided expert commentary and analysis for a number of high profile true crime television shows and now he is bringing his insights into the Garage.

Learn more about Dr. Scott Bonn www.docbonn.com (http://www.docbonn.com/) and on socials @DocBonn

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Brief Summary

Dr. Scott Bond discusses serial killers' psychology, public fascination, and notable cases like BTK and Richard Ramirez.

Key points

The Fascination with True Crime. Exploring why people are drawn to true crime and serial killers.
The Psychology of Serial Killers. Dr. Scott Bond discusses the motivations and psychological needs of serial killers.
Understanding Factor X. Dennis Raider's term for his compulsion to kill reveals his psychological struggles.
The Unique Nature of BTK. Raider's long periods between murders set him apart from other serial killers.
The Profile of a Killer. A psychological profile of the Long Island serial killer aligns with Raider's characteristics.
Raider's Control and Ego. Raider's need for control extends to his interactions with others, showcasing his grandiosity.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I think that many women are drawn to my shows for educational reasons.

6:51WatchOct 2, 2024

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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