Mindhunter /// Part 2 /// 869 | Forensic Files

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that's enough of the be news. All right, everybody. Gather around, grab a chair,
grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. [Music] Continuing on with episode two, we find ourselves
at a bar. This is a Santa Cruz cop bar that is called the Jury Room. And we have the main character, Holden Ford.
He's talking with a retired cop or detective. His name Jim Connor. So Jim Connor was the according to the show the
arresting officer on the co-ed killer Edmund Kemper case. He says that Edund Kemper called from a pay phone in
Pueblo, Colorado and calling because there was no manhunt for him. Basically telling them what he had done and where
the cops could find him to locate him and apprehend him. Then we get back to the hotel because we have our boys are
out on the road doing their road school. We have Bill Tench and Holden Ford. They're sitting there talking. Bill is
smoking cigarette number seven. The TV screen in the background. Captain is talking about once again the son of Sam
David Burkowitz. The screen flashes Robert Hagar reporting New York City. And so I wanted to figure out if Robert
Hagar was a real person and if in fact was a reporter from New York City. And of course he is. He is an analyst and a
retired correspondent for the US television network NBC News. Hagar started his journalism career in radio
before moving to network news. He covered the Vietnam War and other world events before retiring from daily
reporting in 2004. But this is where the show and the story takes a pivotal turn. We know that this
is important to the true history of the FBI in the behavioral science unit. But we have Bill Tench dropping off Holden
Ford at the Vakavville facility. The sign out front reads medical facility, California Department of Corrections.
Holden goes in alone without his badge or sidearm per facility rules. And one part that the captain and I thought was
incredibly funny was back at the hotel when Holden Ford is gearing up to go interview this extra large, as he said,
uh, super king-size serial killer and Bill Tench is trying to give him a little instruction prior to going in
there and how to handle the interview. Holden Ford picks up his gun and puts it in his belt and Bill Tench says, "What
are you doing?" And Holden Ford says, "Well, I'm gonna take my gun in there with me. What could go wrong?" Bill
Ten's reply is, "He's going to take it from you, kill you with it, and have sex with your face." Obviously referring to
some of the co-ed killers crimes and the details of those crimes. When we get our
first glimpse of Edmund Kemper, he is at least every bit of a full head taller than the guard that delivers him to the
room where Holden Ford is seated. Edund Kemper tells Holton that he's been there
for 5 years, saying he applied to the California Highway Patrol and his mother worked to get his record expuned and
says, quote, "Turns out that my record didn't bother them at all. I was just too tall." which is true. And I think
what's interesting here is that I this is something that Evan Keer in real life picked up on as being a lie, just
another lie that his mother had told him. And when he's talking about his record,
well, he's talking about that time period after he killed his grandparents and he was released from the the mental
facility. He turns 21. He gets let out because he committed these crimes when he was so young and he always he had a
desire to become a cop or be involved in law enforcement. He wanted to become part of the California Highway Patrol
and his mother had told him that he he couldn't get the job because he was too tall when in fact we know he he wouldn't
get the job because he he had already murdered two people prior to applying for this position.
>> Yeah. It kind of shows you how out of touch with reality Edmund Keer is. Well,
I killed my grandparents, but maybe I could be a a law enforcement officer. Yeah. Here's what's weird. Because
if he has no reason to believe his mother that she gets the record expuned, but let's say that she does. And on the
show, he's saying that they had no problem with my record. It It didn't bother them at all. Well, it turns out I
was just too tall. And Holden Ford replies with, you know, Keer's talking about the California Highway Patrol.
This, I think, is to to signify what regard Edund Keer holds members of law enforcement, what how he thinks of
them, and how he holds them on a um higher level, to a to a higher standard. Because Holden Ford says, "Oh, two tall.
I never heard of that." And he he replies, "Well, they wouldn't lie to me." Like the you know, the cops
wouldn't lie to me. Yeah, you've murdered many people. They do go on to discuss Joseph
Womba, the famous author. Edmund Keer says that he got his insights from Womba. Womba was a brilliant writer who
sadly passed away earlier this year, 2025 at the age of 88. Womba was known for his fictional and non-fictional
accounts of police work in the United States. Many of his novels are set in Los Angeles and its surroundings and
feature Los Angeles police officers. He's actually won three Edgar awards and was named a grandmaster by the Mystery
Writers of America. Womba was also a Marine and a 14-year veteran of the LAPD. We talked about Womba a bit in our
mainline murders coverage episodes 791 and 792. That was his book Echo in the Darkness.
I didn't read that one, but I watched the old TV movie with the great Robert Loer. Look, there are some pretty great
womb books out there. The Onion Field and more recently Fire Lover are fantastic, fantastic books.
>> Great title. >> Yeah, but remember there was controversy with his involvement in the mainline
murders and he he did some things that I would say were not on the up and up and especially for somebody that is
former law enforcement when he was working to put that book together. Yeah, but I could see that being an issue if
you're in if you're in law enforcement for a long period of time. The criminals aren't playing by any set of rules, but
you have to. Well, so there's there's this thought in the true crime book world, okay, as far as publishers and
publishing houses go, where they are far more likely to publish a book that's about a a case that has been solved, has
been adjudicated, >> especially the further you go back in time with that. To me, I've never
understood that because my some of my favorite true crime books feature unsolved cases, unsolved serial murder.
and Womba. I didn't want to go too far into this because I again I think we touched on
this in in those episodes a bit, but it was later proven they had a suspect, a really good suspect
depending on who you talk to, but it was proven that Joseph Wobb paid under the table paid a high ranking officer to
make the arrest official so that he could push the book through the publishing house.
>> Yeah. Which not good. not always a great way to solve your case by paying the
officer to look in the defense of the officer. I'm sure the officer thought the main suspect was guilty. I'm sure
Womba thought he was guilty, but let's do our due diligence, right? Rather than just taking an envelope under the table
and and placing the man under arrest. I did an interview one time with a journalist and we interviewed the the
subject and at the end of the interview I gave him a little money because I thought, "Thank you for your time and uh
take your wife out to a nice dinner and I appreciate you giving us the time." And when we're leaving, the journalist
said to me, "You're not supposed to pay for an interview. That's not not what journalists do." And I said, "But I'm
not a journalist. I'm a captain." >> He was the journalist. Last time I sat down with the journalist, I uh thanked
him for the interview and told him I was going to take his wife out to a nice dinner.
>> So during this scene, Keer is talking about Francis Farmer, an actress from the 50s who got a labbotomy as as he
says on the show. Anyway, now Francis Farmer was a famous actress who was involuntarily committed to a psychiatric
institution in her home state of Washington. But there is much debate if in fact a labbotomy actually took place.
Now regardless if it did so or not and it doesn't I don't think that it actually did. However, Farmer recounted
her stay in the state asylum as quote unbearably as unbearable terror was how she described her stay there. Edmund
Keer says, you know, there are a lot more like me. That's that's I mean, there's so many chilling parts in this
series, but this is one of them that that stands out for me and one that I don't think I'll ever forget. He says it
so plain Jane, right? He says it so like you know there are many more like me almost like a like a a child would say
it and you see Holden perk up and he's talking about serial killers >> right >> and Holden perks up and he he asks well
how many do you think Keer says it's a guess but in North America 35 but you're never going to find them if they don't
want you to which is interesting too because that's Keer's experience you know, he turned himself in after he
killed his grandparents and then he turns himself in after the co-ed killings and then killing his mother and
his mother's best friend. Again, this is part of his delusion, though, because he's assuming that these killers have
this same ideology as him, commit the crime, and then confess to it, where, as we know, most of them are not going to
confess. But but I think he has a has a point in the sense of well these are probably more random and sporadic
because the killer is looking for a window uh opportunity. It's not as simple as I'm going to go kill somebody
on Monday and then on Tuesday I'm going to go kill somebody. And so because the the crimes uh the crimes happen over a
time period, you could have all these active killers, but they might not have committed a crime in the last couple
years, >> right? Which makes a lot of sense when you start comparing terms like spree
killer and mass murderer to that of serial killer or sequence killer. They are in fact very similar but also very
very different in how they operate. A spree killer is is more like a stark weather where he's out on the road and
he may he may do just what you said, Captain. Kill somebody on a Monday and then kill somebody on a Wednesday and
then the next week and he's just out getting victims as he can with quick succession.
>> Right. where with Keer, yeah, he's trolling and looking for hitchhikers, but they the hitchhikers are are very
random obviously, but he's looking for a very specific type of victim. There's other complications with why it took so
long to catch Edmund Kemper. In fact, him turning himself in. And what's interesting, too, is that as intelligent
as Keer is, this ALS This also seems to signify that he believes that there are many more like me that they
are very much like him, right? That you are never going to find them if they don't want you to, which we know that
that is actually not the fact. Most most of them do not turn themselves in. Uh most of them are identified and then
apprehended. Keer goes on to say, "I am not an expert. I am not an authority. I'm just a highly accomplished killer
who managed to evade capture until I turned myself in. He also refers to killing women as his vocation.
>> I wonder if his mindset would have changed if he would have actually been caught.
>> Yes. And to me, killing his mother and her best friend is very similar to killing his grandparents. And he turns
himself in after that. Had he not killed a family member after being released and
and committing the co-ed murders, I don't think he would ever turn himself in. >> Right.
>> Holden then in another scene, the next scene tells his girlfriend Debbie that
Keer knows more about lust murder than the entire FBI's behavior science unit. Debbie asked, "Why does he hate women?"
Th this seems like such a simple question, but it is so profound. It is. This is almost
foundational to what they're doing and to the understanding of these very evil men that kill a lot of women. So, I love
these exchanges with Debbie as she is asking very simple questions that are not so powerful that well simple
questions that are so very powerful and exactly what the FBI needs to be asking. Now, back at
Vakavville, Keer explains to Holden how [ __ ] a person in their throat is difficult
because of all the muscles in the neck. Ed's mother, he worked at the campus for
the University of Santa Cruz. >> Yeah, she was a counselor. Keer explains how he was never so he's talking about
the women that he desired were women were were similar to most of the women that that lived on campus or attended
the university. But he explains that he was never going to be with any of those women because according to his mom, he
was a [ __ ] a disappointment, a loser. >> Yeah. It seemed like she was so upset
with Ed's father and he might have been a visual representation of that. So therefore, she ends up taking out all
this anger and maybe this hatred just towards men in general on her son. >> And look, it clearly he exhibited some
very strange and bizarre borderline psychotic behavior growing up, but well before he killed his grandparents.
So whatever was driving this woman, it it's probably a combination of what you said and his in his behavior, right,
>> as well. But it's it's like every it seems at least in his mind, every chance
she got to belittle him, she did. Like even going out of the her way of saying, "Oh, well, those might be the type of
women that you desire, but you're never going to end up with any of those women,
and here's why." >> Yeah. rather than saying, "Hey, you know, tuck in your shirt, get a good
job, and um apply yourself, and you know, you could >> you can be whatever you want to be."
>> Yeah. You'll meet a nice young lady. Uh no, instead it's no, you're a [ __ ] You're a disappointment. A loser.
>> See you later, loser. Well, and then he goes on to explain in in detail, which I was I will spare us that here,
but he's talking about how women in general learn to humiliate men. And then Holden asked, "Did your mother humiliate
you?" And it's no answer, end of scene. >> We know the answer. Well, isn't that the
the questionnaire that or isn't that the the biggest question? You know, men are
some of men's biggest fears are to be embarrassed by a woman and then a woman's biggest
fear is to be murdered by a man. >> Yeah. Well, yes. I'm not going to pretend to understand the psychology of
that, but that uh seems seems to be a thought that that is out there. Um, >> yeah. I had a friend one time ask me why
we covered more unsolved cases than solved cases. And I said, 'Well, some of it is that we're in touch with law
enforcement and they need help or we're in touch with the family and they don't feel like they have a voice and so if we
can shine some details and shine some light on these unsolved cases, maybe it will move the needle. Uh, and then she
said, "Well, with all your the work that you've done on yourself through mental health, you'd probably be better off
starting a podcast that helped young men with their mental health." >> That that could be a thing. Stay tuned.
>> I don't I don't know if we need more cap captains in this world. >> Stay tuned on that front. We're garage
shifting gears dramatically. Uh, the So, that's the end of the scene. The next scene they are driving back from
Vakavville where Bill is explaining to Holden that Keer's probably trying to manipulate him. So, you know, don't
believe everything or don't put put every ounce of thought into every word that he is saying and every statement
that he is saying saying, sorry. Then we see a montage of the many visits to and
from for Bill and Holden on their road school tour. Cigarettes consumed during montage equal
three. >> But I think it is fascinating this whole Holden interviews Keer. He realizes that
his knowledge is extensive and also his knowledge is from a viewpoint that would
be hard for a normal individual to understand. Normal being not a serial killer, but he's aruck with his
intelligence and the way he views his life and views his actions almost like like he met a celebrity. One of my
favorite scenes is when he's talking to his girlfriend about how extensive that knowledge is and then he orders like an
egg salad sandwich. >> Mhm. >> And she has to say, "You don't even like cake salad sandwich.
What are you doing?" >> And you know what that is? A lot of that rings true still to this
day. when when I spoke with Douglas on that episode when I think I can't remember the
question I asked him but I was asking him to name a specific killer that he interviewed like who was the most
interesting or who did you learn the most from or who was the most powerful I can't remember my exact phrasing of the
question but his answer was Edmund Keer and he said that it was because Keer because of his high IQ Q. And part of it
too also has to do with, you know, he's like the character says in the show, he's been in that prison for 5 years.
So, he's had some time to contemplate and think about a lot of this stuff as well by the time that Holden Ford is
interviewing him. But just like with Douglas, Douglas is saying because of this guy's high IQ, he was able to
articulate for us what he did, why he did it, how he did it much and far better than any other killer that they
interviewed over the course of decades. So, the montage ends with our road school teachers at the Sacramento Police
Department where Detective Roy Carver stops them outside to ask for help. He was wondering if he could get them to
take a look at something a little unusual. This is victim Rosemary Gonzalez, who is
73 years old. The victim was beaten within an inch of her life, groped but not penetrated, the detective says. So,
survives the attack. Very brutal attack, but survives. He says that they found her at the doorway entry to the home to
her home. Her little dog's throat was cut. She was in and out of a coma and does not remember who did this to her.
Carver tells them that they need to know just how worried they need to be. [Music]
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details. [Music] All right, we are back. Cheers, mates. talk hands in the air. Cheers to you,
Colonel. >> Cheers to you, Captain. The next scene opens up outside of the motel where
Tench is enjoying cigarette number 11. Then the next day, they join Detective Carver on a ride out to the
neighborhood. Right, this is the neighborhood where the attack of Rosemary Gonzalez, the elderly woman,
took place. In this scene in the car, Ten is smoking cigarette number 12. Then they go and they interview the victim,
Rosemary Gonzalez, at her home. Afterward, they are sitting at a diner. Holden attempts to It's like he's
attempting his first criminal profile of the attacker here, >> right? >> He's just kind of thinking out loud.
Bill and Holden presumably miss their flights and they have to stay over till the next
day. So they so they were planning on going home. However, they missed the flight and now they're stuck there for
an additional 24 or so hours and with the extra time, of course, Holden wants to go back and talk to Ed Keer.
>> Well, I think this >> wants to go golfing. >> I think this shows where they're at and
their development as a person and their life. You know, Bill has a a home life. So, he's more disappointed that he's not
getting back to that normaly where Holden is like, "Oh, I got more time to talk talk to my buddy old Edmond."
>> Yeah. And I mean, trying to get into the minds of these fictional characters can be difficult uh because those minds
don't exist, frankly. But um you know, keep in mind Tench was really disappointed in Holden when
they were looking at the Ada Jeffre case and Holden his basic stance on it after
they spent a good amount of time on it was to the detective like we're in the dark. We we don't we don't have the
answers you're looking for. We don't we don't know what to do. And that is really to show how any one of us would
come up and rise through the ranks and right you gain life experience. You're gaining experience in this specific
world and realm on the job where oftent times it's trial by fire. You you you either perform or you don't. However,
you like any great football coach will tell you, you either win or you learn. There is no losing if you're a good team
and you're a good coach. And so, I think what this is trying to set up here is that Holden Ford, while he might be some
kind of genius when it comes to this stuff, he still needs to get his sea legs. He still needs to get some actual
experience and learn about these killers and learn from the known and identified
killers to hopefully be able to identify the unknown and unidentified killers. >> Yeah, I I agree with all that, but I
also think some of this stuff is also a reflection of the individuals that these characters
are based on. And I think one of the things, one of the things about John Douglas, and I think he kind of learned
more about this with his book, um, the cases that haunt us, you know, he's hired by John Ramsay to try to solve the
the murder of John Bené Ramsay. And he tells them straight up, hey, you're hiring me, but I'm working for the
victim, so if I think you did it, that's what I'm going to tell the world. And so
I think John Douglas and you know this it's just a human nature. Some people you meet they're more guarded or they
have a certain decorum to them and other people there there's no filter and it's
honest. It's an honest no filter. And I think some of Holden's actions are a reflection of maybe what the writers saw
in John Douglas's personality. and Douglas being one of the writers of the show as well. That's one thing that
makes this exercise so interesting to try to figure out and pull from where he's writing from experience
in a fictionalized dramatization of some of those life experiences. During this argument, they're arguing in the car on
the way to Vakavville because Holden wants Bill Tench to come in with him. Bill wants to go golfing. Bill's smoking
cigarette number 13. But then we go inside the walls of Vakavville and we see Bill Tench wearing his golf clothes
inside Vakavville. And we have Edmund Keer talking to Bill. He says, "So you're the big boss." Which which is
interesting because this is where you can see these guys manipulating Keer a little
bit, right? Remember, we've already had Tench warning Holden forward that Keer might be trying to manipulate him. And I
I like how they planted this seed of well, Bill Tench is this very accomplished FBI agent. And while he is
the leader of these two, um I just like how they kind of planted the seed that as Keer says, so you are the big boss.
>> Yeah. He's essentially only the big boss during these seminars that they're doing
with the local cops. >> But Keer doesn't Keer doesn't know any of that. >> Exactly. And that's the the seed they're
planting. >> But as far as the behavior science unit, they're basically on the same footing
because it's all new. >> Yeah. I mean, the their their supervisor looks at at Holden as the underling, but
what I'm getting at here is we by this point, what is one thing that they know and understand about Keer is how he
holds law enforcement to a higher standard and what he thinks and how he regards people from law
enforcement. Well, now you're not just talking to some young agent who was sent off here willy-nilly to interview you.
No, now they've sent he that young agent is back and this time he brought with him the big boss.
>> Well, and in his warped mind, he's like the higher level of individual they send
to him, the higher his importance is in the world. >> Yes. and Bill to this to this his
response is well I established the behavioral science unit several years ago but Holden has come in with some new
ideas. Keer tells the boys my mother was convinced that I would do something horrible someday.
Like what? He is asked and he replies like rape my sister. This was when I was 10 years old. He says his mother
frightened him by making him sleep in the basement. He says then he began strangling dogs and cats and burying
them in the backyard. Keer says he was 15 when he was put away. He was 21 when he got out.
Adding while other boys were experiencing their sexual revolution, he was locked up. Keer says he knew he was
going to kill his mother one week before he actually did. When he did attack her,
he did so with a claw hammer. He cut off her head and then he humiliated her. Edmond Keer says mothers should not
scorn her own son. If a woman humiliates her little boy, he will become hostile,
violent, and debased. Period. After we see Bill and Holton sitting together on a flight home, Bill is smoking cigarette
number 14. Oddly, they are sitting right next to one another with an open seat to
Bill's right. My guess is they're talking about things of a sensitive nature and probably want
to keep their conversation a little bit on the DL. Now we're back at Debbie's apartment. Holden and Debbie discuss
their mothers. So this whole episode is moms really dipping into the psychology of upbringing and a mother's influence
even on a subconscious level for regular people and violent offenders and even serial killers.
>> Yeah. Not to correct you, but I I do believe they're in Holden's bathroom, but I could be wrong.
>> They could be. Sitting in his front stoop outside of his house, we see Tench sucking on cigarette 15.
Then Holden and Tench drive back to FBI headquarters and they tell their boss that they have been secretly
interviewing serial killer Edmund Keer. This conversation does not go well at first, but Bill manages to smooth things
over with the boss. Their superior allows them to continue their sideshow, as he calls it, but says that no one can
know. They are to relocate their offices to the basement of the FBI building, to
which Bill says, "Basement? I am 44 years old." And then we see them going to the dark, dingy basement of the FBI
building. The episode ends with the boys relocating. Holton's box of his belongings is
closed, so we can't see any of his belongings that he's transporting with him to the basement to relocate his
office. However, Bill tenses boxes open, revealing a small basketball hoop and several Playboy magazines.
which apparently you can read those at the FBI office according to the show anyway or at least you could in the late
'7s. It seems odd choice of reading material. But uh I wanted to look into some of we know that Playboy magazine
has covered true crime throughout the years, but I wanted to find a couple specific articles. One was titled serial
murder and sexual repression. So maybe maybe there's some form of uh uh research for Bill Tench. But uh this
article sexual serial murder and sexual repression was from August of 1993 and it's talking about William Harren
who is actually the lipstick killer who we've already referenced in our talks about Mine Hunter. But then you take it
a little bit a step further. also in 93. You have Kelsey Nicole Turner who was born in 1993 and later in life in her
adult life um she was actually a murderer and a former adult model. She appeared in magazines such as Playboy
Maxim and 110. The song playing to close out this episode is none other than Psycho Killer
by the Talking Heads, which is obviously perfect for this episode to close it out
for many reasons. But this first season again is supposed to be about 1977 and the song Psycho Killer debuted in 1977.
But I love the scene where they're talking to their boss because it shows you basically what they're gearing to is,
okay, Holden has these new ideas and has this fresh perspective on how to look at
things, but he doesn't have the decorum. He doesn't understand the hierarchy. He
doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. But Bill sees the importance of Holden
and what he's trying to do. So he can play that cards. He knows how to work the system. He knows how to work his
boss a little bit. And I think it's very important because I don't think one is more important. I don't think one
character is more important than the other. They need each other in order to work the system to
so they can get out of the dark. So the behavior science unit can get out of the
dark and get these answers. But it's going to take both of them and both of their skill sets in order to move this
forward. Well, and they make each other better, right? It's it's wrestler Bill Tench who is
older, set in his ways, more experienced, and then Holden Ford is John Douglas who comes in there younger,
fresher, with new ideas. And so they kind of they they make each other better even when they don't get
along, even when they're butdding heads. And this makes a lot of sense when you think about it because if you review
their real life backgrounds, Robert Wrestler was investigating homicides before he even
got to the FBI, where John Douglas didn't have any real street experience investigating homicides until he was
paired up with with wrestler. when his early days of the of the FBI was just like we said yesterday, the reactionary
unit, which was mostly bank robberies and extortion cases. And then he he went into uh hostage negotiation,
which yeah, there are homicides that take place at some of those those hostage situations like discussed
yesterday, but you you know who did it. It's not a a mystery of who the killer was. So, episode 3 opens up in Park
City, Kansas. We see the ADT serviceman staring intently at a regular looking home on a residential street. He is
wearing plain clothes, not his typical ADT button-down collared shirt. He gets into his ADT utility van and drives off.
This is very interesting. So, we have a lot of creative liberties that were probably taken here. As we know, BTK
actually started killing in 1974. This is when he killed four members of the Otto family during a school day. So, the
family was actually a family of seven. Some of the older kids had already left for school that morning. And then he
goes into the home and terrorizes and attacks the remaining four, which is father,
mother, son, and daughter, the two youngest kids. Raider, we would later learn many years later that he stalked
the family for two to three weeks prior to the murders. Now, this is very we like to try to get to the details here
because while he stalked this family for several weeks prior to the murders, I don't think that he did so the two or
three weeks leading up to the murders. Because what happens once he gets inside of the home, he surprises his family,
but what surprises him is he did not anticipate the father, Joseph, to be home at all when he started off on that
attack. Right. >> And we know that from Dennis Raiders's own words. That could have been a big screw-up. And
and Joseph Otto, he was recovering from a surgery or an injury. Had he been 100%
man, there's a chance that Raider would have been caught for a B&E, that Joseph would have fought him off. Well, yeah,
because what we've learned is most of these killers are looking for easier victims. I'm sure there is, but it'd be
anomaly for to have a killer that's looking for more challenging victims. >> So, we could go on and on about BTK, but
of course, we gave you almost 200 minutes of BTK coverage in a four-part series.
>> Let's give them 200 more. Hey, real quick, though. I wonder if this has any um connection
because we know he worked for ADT. >> I wonder if that had anything to do with him coming up with his own moniker
BTK. Um, probably I mean bind them, torture them, kill them is how he described it in one of his
letters to one of the letters that he sent early in his serial killing career, let's call
it. Um, but let's keep in mind he also he also gave a lot of names in that letter. Like he was starved to have a
moniker. He was starving for them to be calling him something in the newspapers and for that name to make its way to the
newspapers. So while ADT and BTK may line up as far as initials go or breaking it down to three letters, there
were a lot of other suggestions. >> Yeah, a lot of other suggestions that he sent out there regarding this scene
though, too. Keep in mind, we're supposed to be talking about 1977 or beyond, and we know he can't be looking
at the Oro family's home here. Those murders took place in 1974. Raider did go on to kill again in April of 74,
killing 21-year-old Katherine Bright inside of her home, referring to that victim during stalking sessions and
notetaking as Project Lights Out. Raider did kill twice in 1977. He killed Shirley Relford in March and Nancy Joe
Fox in December. So I believe that the scene is suggestive of the Otto murders or one of these one of the murders from
1977. At the time when of seeing it for the first time, Captain, I thought it was
suggestive 100% of the terror murders because we hear a dog bark as the ADT serviceman BTK is walking back, walking
away from the home that he's surveilling and into his van. Theos, as we know, had
a dog, but we'll circle back to BTK stuff later, as does the series. So then, Bill and Holden go to Boston
University to meet with a professor. This is when we meet Dr. Wendy Carr. She tells them that she is working on a book
that is about to come out that is about white collar criminals that are not so different than Edmund Keer. This
surprises hold, right? How can white collar criminals be anything similar to Edmund Kemper,
>> right? >> Wendy replies that they are all psychopaths and she is studying captains
of industry. Dr. Wendy Carr is obviously brilliant and she seems to not just understand the value of interviewing and
learning from these locked up killers, but she seems to be able to see the full scope and potential for a project like
this. And she can articulate the mission of this project, how to facilitate it, and why it would be both useful and
rewarding. She mentions that maybe the findings could be published in a book. I love this scene. This appears to very
much excite Holden. He makes this very strange face like he's trying to conceal a heart on which
is so that is like kind of funny as Holden is taking notes and if you look I I looked closely to zoom in on his notes
and if you look closely he wrote questionnaire underlined followed by bullet points of personal history why
arousal and then the word book written in large capital letters. Yeah, I thought you were going to say I looked
in closely to see his hard on >> and it was impressive, my friends. >> Very impressive.
>> Very impressive hard on. >> Hey, that's a very impressive hard on you guys. >> I see why the the FBI recruited this
man. >> Um, so of course he he looks or appears excited or surprised, whatever, at the
the mention of possibly turning this work into a book. And we do know, of course, Douglas has he would go on to
write many many books. In fact, 17 of them thus far. We also know that uh Anne Burgess, who is who Wendy Carr is
loosely based off of, especially her professional career, went on to write books as well. In fact, John Douglas and
Anne Burgess wrote a book together along with Allan Burgess and Robert Wrestler.
This book came out in 1992 and it was called the Crime Classification Manual, a standard system for investigating and
classifying violent crimes. So at this sitdown, Bill tells Wendy that they are going to interview Benjamin Miller at
Boston Penitentiary. This is uh titled Bridgewwater. He says they're going to go interview that killer later that day.
Holden asked Wendy, "Do you really think that anyone would be interested in this
outside of law enforcement?" Again, this seems to be on the idea that they would publish a book and that it would
be released to the masses and the masses would want to read it, consume it, and understand it. Dr. Wendy Wendy Carr, her
response is absolutely brilliant. She says, "Imagine, like truly imagine what it takes to bludgeon someone to death.
The lust for control, the feeling of arousal, the decision to rape the severed head of your victim, to
humiliate her corpse. How could you possibly get that from an ordinary police report? You know why it took me
nearly a decade to publish my book? Because narcissists don't go to the doctor. Psychopaths are convinced that
there is nothing wrong with them. So these men are virtually impossible to study. Yet you have found a way to study
them in a near in near perfect laboratory conditions. So while Wendy delivers this brilliant speech, in fact
one of my favorite quotes of all of season 1 by my humble garage opinion. Again, look in the background if you if
you look closely. So, there are several bookshelves behind Dr. Wendy Carr in the
scene. If you look closely at the very many books on these bookshelves, you will see that one of those books is none
other than John Douglas's Guide to Landing a Career in Law Enforcement, which is funny that they snuck that in
there for many reasons, but also because that book, as real as it is, was not published until 2004.
Also interesting to me because of the character Dr. Wendy Carr is an academic. It's an odd book for someone that has no
desire to pursue a career in law enforcement. >> Yeah. I also think it's interesting and
I'm sure the question happened on would other people be interested in this? But I think it also shows there's
similarities with these killers. Some of these killers want to get recognition for their crimes and be known and some
don't. And same way in law enforcement, it's just human nature. Holden wants some attention. He wants to to have the
spotlight on him a little bit where I think Bill I I think he kind of care less.
Bill and I I believe this. Look, I'll tell you that I know a lot about John Douglas. I I can I think I know a good
amount about wrestler, but I but he's more of a mystery to me than Douglas. He he didn't write as many books and we've
talked to Douglas. He he is a I was going to say a spot of words, but no, he's a water fountain, like a a huge
fountain of words. Like he just talks and talks and talks and talks. Um, so he's very much an open book where I I
feel like Bill, at least the character Bill Tench, maybe even more so than the real life Robert Wrestler, but he
appears to be more of gets a lot of satisfaction out of supporting and aiding and advancing the local law
enforcement guys. Where Douglas and Holden Ford might be more of a Deion Sanders type, Robert Wrestler, Bill
Tench is more of a more of a players coach. >> Yeah, I think >> fill in the blank name.
>> Holden wants the subject to get attention, but if he gets some in return, not a bad thing. Where I think
Bill wants the subject to get attention, but no attention on him personally. and
Holden. Also, I think it's it goes back to what they're trying to show of lack of experience versus experience with
these two characters who are have the same job. It's Holden wants to learn and wants to
and thinks he can figure out all these killers where it's almost like Bill Tench is is his resolve is that well, we
can only understand so much of them because they are so different than we are. So, I'm not going to I'm not going
to lose sleep or or scramble my brain trying to figure these monsters out. So, outside of Bridgewwater Correctional,
Bill and Holden are having a discussion. Bill's smoking cigarette number 15, and
he tells Holden that you would be less fidgety if you smoke cigarettes. Once inside, they are actually denied
access to their subject. Remember, he was Benjamin Miller because Benjamin Miller, the killer, says he no longer
wants to talk. Now, this is a real man. Benjamin Franklin Miller, was arrested for crimes referred to as the Brawl
murders. This was a series of murders of five sex workers between 1967 and 1971 in Stamford, Connecticut. He was
actually released after serving 15 years. And it turns out that that was a very controversial case. In fact, it's
actually one that we should probably cover here in the garage at some point. But that is a real man who was locked up
for multiple murders and was locked up at Bridgewater. Now, back at the office, Bill and Holden are mapping out and
naming serial killers that they wish to interview. And I'll go through the names
that we hear them mention in this scene. First is they say Rissell which we would
later learn is Monty Rristle because they will actually go and interview him on the show and they say Monty Rristle
is only an hour away. Russell was charged with abducting, raping and murdering five women. However, because
he plead guilty, the he murdered five women between 1976 and 1977. This took place in Alexandria, Virginia, where he
lived, which makes sense because it's very close to where the FBI offices are. So, some of the women live very close to
him and he appears to have various motives, but he is plain and short a very, very disturbed mind. I was going
to say, sorry, captain. I was going to say because he plead guilty to the murders, I think that they didn't, they
ended up dropping the kidnapping and raping charges, >> right? Then you have Von Greenwood, also known
as the Skidro Slasher. He murdered 11 vigorant men in vagrant men in Southern California between November
1964 and January of 1975 in addition to a failed 12th murder that ultimately led to his capture. Also
mentioned here is Herbert Mullen who was deeply disturbed and actually very very mentally ill. He was in five
different mental institutions before he got out and started killing. So here's an example of some of his dementia. And
Mullen believed that the Vietnam War had produced enough American deaths to stall
earthquakes. So he thought that these earthquakes would come as some kind of blood sacrifice to nature. That there
had to be some kind of balance and finding that balance between man and nature would come through blood
sacrifices, the deaths of of humans, >> right? >> Mass deaths of humans. And so he thought that because of the
Vietnam War that this was stalling these earthquakes that were inevitable and that would destroy the planet and in
mankind. But he eventually Vietnam the war starts dying down. It starts to wind down by
late 1972. And so when that started, that war started to get in the near end stages, he believed that he needed to
start killing people in order to have enough deaths to keep those earthquakes from happening.
He later said that for this reason, he said that his father had telepathically ordered him to take lives. He would go
on to kill 13 people, including four teenage boys that were on a camping trip. He stumbled across them and shot
each of them in the head. Now, we did talk about Mullen. We've never done a a show or a deep dive on Herbert Mullen,
but we did talk a bit about Mullen in our Edund Keer coverage because this was some of the difficulty with
apprehending somebody like Keer or really the investigation at large. Because here we have in the
Santa Cruz area, you actually in that general area, you actually had three active serial killers who were operating
very differently all at the same time, which this is a new kind of criminal or at least the understanding of this kind
of criminal was very new at the time. So you can imagine how difficult and confusing that made things for police in
that area of California. >> Yeah. Some of these killers tell these crazy stories or give crazy reasons
why they commit these crimes and it's just hard to believe anything that they say because we know that they're
killers. >> Yeah. And most of them are liars as well. This is this is one individual,
however, that I will agree with my you know, I I'll go back and underline and echo my my statements about him early
that we just said minutes ago. deeply disturbed and very very mentally ill in my opinion. Now Herbert Mullen is also
discussed quite a bit in Robert Wrestler wrestller's book whoever fights monsters. So if you want to learn more
about Herbert Mullen there's a lot of material on him in wrestller's book who is aka Bill Tench. They also mentioned
the Cincinnati Strangler uh Postal Laskkey Jr. We talked about him in our Bricka family murders episode as there
was some thought that when the Bricka family was discovered murdered that it was the active serial killer that was in
the area at the time which it turns out very likely was not the Cincinnati Strangler. Very different MOS, very
different types of murders. They also mentioned Richard Speck saying he's in Illinois. Spec killed eight nursing
students in Chicago. He also took drugs to grow boobies in prison. >> Uh, you won't find that on Mine Hunter.
You'll find that for me here in the garage. >> Well, I took drugs to grow boobies in
the garage, but didn't fully work. >> Well, he he managed to grow a a full rack here. Um,
>> nice rack. >> My guy, Bill Curtis of American Justice, I feel like we don't talk about Bill
Curtis enough. Anyway, so Bill Curtis from American Justice managed to get his get his hands on videos,
videos that were filmed inside of an Illinois state prison which showed Richard Speck and other inmates drinking
alcohol, smoking cigarettes, doing cocaine, smoking weed, passing money around, and engaging in sex with each
other. So, at one point in these videos, Speck looks at the camera and says, "If
they knew how much fun I'm having, they'd turn me loose." Like, this is his dream scenario. He's just in there doing
just doing drugs and being as strange. Spec was anyway. All right, let's move on. Then you they mention Gerald
Schaefer from Florida. Schaefer is also known as the cop killer or the hangman. Those are some of his nicknames. Uh, not
the cop killer. I apologize. I misspoke. The killer cop. And really, they're rattling through these names, but this
is one hell of a list with each one of these monsters uniquely evil with some of them worse than the others. During
this mapping out the serial killer session, Detective Carver calls from Sacramento and informs Bill Tench that
there has been another attack and this time the victim is dead. The victim is the same age as the pre previous victim
and she has a dog. So they fly back to Sacramento. The victim's name is Laura Conway. She lived about a half a mile
away from the last victim. They attempt to profile the killer. They think that he's poor white trash, but older than
they originally thought. Remember, Holden was kind of just thinking out loud, giving a a very vague basic
profile previous to this. Bill will add to this thought, saying that the killer is at least late 20s. The they interview
Dwight Taylor. Dwight Taylor is aged 23. They interview him outside of his mother's house. Bill and Dwight smoke a
cigarette while they are trying to break him down. They arrest Dwight Taylor for
murder and attempted murder and celebrate at the police station. >> Yeah, this is the one with the he has
mom issues and >> and he's sitting outside when they interview him. And it's really, this
scene is very brilliant how it was put together by the director, the writing, and the the actors carrying it out
because even the way that the you got Detective Carter Carver with the our two FBI agents. Even the way they kind of
move around and position themselves differently at different times when they say different words or ask different
questions to the subject is is really kind of interesting. Not just interesting, but very strategic.
>> Right. Then our two road feds, they go back to interview Keer again. Keer talks
about some of his victims, saying he liked Mary the best, adding, "I was lukewarm on Anita." And we know Keer had
10 victims, seven nonfamiliar victims. The first of those were Mary Anne Peace and Anita Luchessa. They were both
18-year-old students from Fresno State University. Keer picked them up as they attempted to hitchhike to Stanford
University to visit friends. He dismembered them in his apartment, among other things. Later scattered the
remains near u a mountain. He tells Bill and Holden that he cut off his mother's head with a hunting knife.
He also admits to putting his mother's vocal cords into the garbage disposal because he wanted to shut her up for
good. He also tells them about how he decided to start burying the severed heads of his victims in the backyard of
his mother's home right outside of her bedroom window. >> Yeah. So, the victims would be looking
at her. >> Yeah. Looking at her. After Keer, the boys get to fly back home and no flight
would be complete without Bill Tench enjoying cigarette number 17. Once back at home, the boys are strategizing and
waiting for Dr. Wendy Carr to arrive. And to pass time, Bill Tension joins cigarette number 18 just outside the FBI
building. The good doctor arrives and then we see the trio walking off together discussing psychopaths.
[Music] Want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage each and every week.
Make sure you go to true crimegar.com and sign up on the mailing list. So much more to get to in this Mine Hunter
series. And until then, >> be good, be kind, and don't litter. [Music] [Applause]
[Music] Turn up the chill this September with My Mochi ice cream. Myochi is scoops of
delicious ice cream wrapped in sweet dough. It's creamy, chewy, and totally unexpected. Craving something fruity?
Hit strawberry or mango. Feeling classic? Cookies and creams where it's at. Gluten-free and only 70 calories a
piece? My mochi ice cream's perfect for midday breaks. After dinner treats, and sneaking one from the freezer at
midnight. Grab a purple box of Mymochi today and chew it, love it, repeat.

Mindhunter /// Part 2 /// 869

Part 2 of 4

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Tried, tested, and true - one of our favorite Crime series of all time is the Netflix original Mindhunter. Mindhunter is mostly real true crime tales from the F.B.I. Season One kicks things off in 1977 with legendary agents John Douglas and Robert Ressler partnering up and stepping into the minds and the madness of serial killers. Join Nic & the Captain as they celebrate this great series by exploring the true crime tales from the Mindhunters and the F.B.I.

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Brief Summary

Holden Ford interviews serial killer Edmund Kemper, exploring the psychological impact of upbringing on violent behavior and the challenges of understanding serial killers.

Key points

High Potential Returns. TV's number one drama, featuring a brilliant single mom solving crimes, premieres on ABC.
Hormone Harmony Launch. A new supplement for women promises clarity and confidence with science-backed ingredients.
True Crime Garage Introduction. Nick and the captain welcome listeners to another episode of True Crime Garage.
Edmund Kemper's Disturbing Insights. Kemper reveals chilling thoughts on serial killers and his own past.
The Impact of Maternal Influence. Discussion on how Kemper's mother shaped his psyche and actions.
The Dynamic Duo's Tension. Holden and Bill navigate their differing priorities and the challenges of their work.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Turns out that my record didn't bother them at all. I was just too tall.

Edmund Kemper's chilling remark about his past.

7:05WatchSep 10, 2025

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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