Jonbenet: Presumed Guilty ////// | Forensic Files

n [Music] Once Upon a Time in the perfect town of Boulder there was a pretty little
princess who everyone loved Little Miss Christmas they called her she lived in a
castle with the prince and the king and queen she was very happy and quite wise for her years
off to the fairest of them all contests she would go with her mother the queen before crowds of people she would dance
and sing in costumes and gowns a top of Parade floats she would smile and wave to the town's people and
their children she was the Envy of several and caught the eye of more than a few at the very heart of a holiday
season filled with part and feast was the Annual Festival to celebrate the birth of the Christ
child a day of gifts and Gathering Good Tidings and well wishes for the year to come it was on this day that little miss
Christmas shined so bright with enthusiasm laughter and cheer she was a pretty little princess in a perfect
little town she was so happy and so was every one around her or so they thought by day's end it was on this
night that the king and the queen would return the little princess and the prince back to the castle for a night of
Slumber and dreams before the adventure of a new day but something was not right in fact
something was terribly wrong and a great tragedy befell the little princess under the black cloak of the night the
princess was mysteriously slain threats and instructions were delivered a ransom was demanded but
never collected rules and Promises were broken the authorities were summoned and
the priest in Fellowship arrived the castle was full and the king and queen surrounded the princess was found
she'd been killed and displayed in a hellish fashion left strangled and bound in the darkest depths of the Castle's
dungeon surely the killer was an enemy a monstrous Maniac who penetrated the castle walls to slay the little
princess or perhaps it was an evil from within was the princess a victim of a dirty little secret or the violent Rage
of one of her own and so it was written and so it was told the riddle of the pretty little princess
found mysteriously slain inside her castle the authorities the town's people and the luil L who came from near and
far declared there were only two possible solutions to this quandry the family or an
intruder this is true crab garage very excited today Captain because veteran crime journalist Steven singular
is joining us here today in the garage with his wife Joyce to offer an original perspective
on the killing of John Benet Ramsey Steven singular was in Boulder Colorado for much of the murder
investigation in his book presumed guilty Steven singular methodically details a volatile situation he asserts
that great confusion in the public perception of the case inflamed tensions among the district attorney and the
Boulder Police Department and other factions to a point where the investigation may be stalemated singular
perspective exploration of the near Universal call for the Ramsay's heads reveals the gritty power struggles and
class schisms that underline the shiny comforting facade of the boulder region Steven singular calls into a question
and Overlook possible very important aspect of this case John Benet was merely one of many little girls
leeringly displayed as things of beauty by the child pageant industry whose evil
twin is the child porn producers and collectors which in the '90s was hugely expanded because of the internet
although Steven claims at points to have uncovered voluminous evidence he incorporates a few of the particulars
giving his own conspiracy theory singular ultimate scenario that neither parent personally murdered John Benet
but one parents unwitting involvement led to attempts at concealment Bears consideration and that is why I invited
Stephen and Joyce singular to join us here today in the garage to discuss many of the aspects of this case that I would
wager that many have never heard of before we want to welcome you to the garage and thanks for joining us here
today Stephen and Joyce for years we've been spoonfed this idea that we have to come to one of the following two
conclusions in this case either the family did it or an intruder did it and you say maybe there's some other
questions that we should be asking about this still unsolved murder case so Mr Singler why not the ramies there was no
pathology at all emerging from the ramsy family uh no even anecdotal examples of you know slapping
a child or abusing a child in some way um no no connection of John to that sort of thing either so it it it was just uh
looking like this might be a more complicated case than was basically being presented as soon as the py did it
Theory came out on the one hand you know the ramies themselves were were promoting or their team I should say
their legal team more of the idea of the Intruder did it but when you look at that as far as I am aware there there
has never been a case in American Crime history where there's a body and a ransom not in the same location and so
that raised all kinds of questions and issues that didn't seem to make any sense so we started just thinking I mean
again months go by and all of January all of February all of March about a 100 days and there's no movement at all in
the case and we started to basically ask the question is there a third option here and then you have to remember that
this was the beginning also of the 24hour C news cycle so they kept repeat repeatedly showing that the images of J
you know walking across the stage in various costumes singing dancing this was shown a lot and it got into people's
psyche and Consciousness and people started you know making judgments and you know people would um even
local media people um talk show hosts would you know just pound into the microphone that oh py did it py had to
have done it paty did it you know py did this paty did that and we just thought that was wrong to be potentially
influencing a jury pool you know um and so we we just just decided to go look in
other areas that hadn't and weren't being investigated right so as Joyce said earlier when we we started talking
to the pageant mothers who again some of them knew Psy quite well and uh and knew
John banet and they kept telling us the same story over and over again that that
her primary photographer Randy Simons had behaved very bizarrely in the aftermath of the murder they known him
for years she'd taken pictures of their daughters at pageants and other venues and they said he was calling them up
after midnight screaming and crying saying I did not kill John banet I did not kill John banet but nobody had
accused him killing John he so it was like me thinks he does protest too much it was very odd very odd that he is
defending himself when nobody's accusing him of the crime was there anything odd
or weird about the ramies the one thing about the ramsy family that was unusual was that they did dress John Benet up
like this and you know put her out into the world of beauty pageants some of the
mothers said that there were very suspect characters that came to the to the child pageant were were in that
world uh even people they had asked to to be removed from it so it is true that that that was unusual that py did that
with John Benet but that opened the whole case up to whole other subcultures well it wasn't it wasn't unusual in the
fact that the pageant the pageant world was much more prevalent in the South it was a much bigger deal in the southern
states than it was here in the northern states you know of course you would see the random Kitty pageant if you went to
a mall back in those days but the the what we thought was that you know J was an extraordinarily beautiful child and
she would had a lot of makeup on and a lot of provocative costumes and we the natural thought was who might have
inadvertently been sexually charged by watching her in in those in those page or in those costumes who who might you
be inadvertently stimulating you know um sponsor a spectator a judge anybody right so again a 100 days went by there
was no movement in the case I decided to contact the district attorney and Boulder Alex Hunter and and to my real
surprise he invited me to come up there and meet with him and talk about some of
the things that that you know we've been looking into some of the people we've been talking to and the whole internet
angle of this with child porn just uh seemingly running rampant you know and sort the under he didn't know the name
of Randy Simons when Steve presented it to him he didn't know yeah and then he and then when the more information Steve
gave him about what we had seen on the uh on the on the web he said why don't you conduct a parallel investigation and
go look into this because the Boulder police were not looking at any other of those angles
right he said I really can't get the Boulder Police to investigate anything outside the Ramsey family and what he
was saying was extremely odd if you really stop and think about it because you know going further into that
internet world I mean basically you're committing a crime if you're downloading child poror or if you're trying to you
know access it off the internet interet so I think it was more just very indicative of his
frustration in in not being able to sort of enlarge the case and so you know we continued to look into Simons and uh and
again some of the pageant mothers and again we took information to him this went on for a couple of months so it was
clear I mean as time went on it was just seeming to be more and more clear that this is not a simple case and why if
it's if it's a complex case should we be limited to two choices so the book the first version of Presumed guilty came
out in July of in June of 1999 which by that time is two and a half years into the case there's still
no movement in the case and so that's third scenario is being offered up and the third scenario essentially said what
if the Ramsay R the ramies have been presented either totally guilty or totally innocent uh what if there's some space
in between there what if they would be maybe guilty of something but not guilty of murder is that a possibility and
would that explain some of the complexities on the surface of the crime such as a body and a ransom not found in
the same place you met a lot of the players involved and at times your book dances around this idea that maybe there
are certain people involved in this investigation that don't really want to fully investigate or solve this case I
found it so interesting that in April of 1997 the ramsy camp publicly stated that
the leadership in the Boulder Police Department lacks the objectivity and judgment necessary to find the killer of
John Benet ramsy that's it's a quote so that's similar ideas can you talk about some of the players that you met along
the way and talk about the possibility that they may not either want to solve it or may not have the capabilities to
solve this case one of the aspects of this and the kind of big big view of it and the title you know there is the word
the media and one of the things that happens many times in criminal cases is that you
know the event happens and then the media presents it in a certain way and it is just extremely difficult to get
past you know that first wave of what is presented to the public I mean that's been that's the Ramsay case is sort of
the ultimate example of it so 27 years later if you go on the internet today you'll have two groups arguing one will
be Idis the Intruder did it the other group will be RDI the ramsy did it and there's
no there's no other alternative and so that has always been a part of what's fascinated me you know with crime and
the modern media and the Ramy case is the is the biggest example of it I mean 27 years later you think a new idea
might be able to enter the conversation so what happened in the in the Boulder Police Department I mean yes
they they were underst staffed on the day of the crime yes they did make mistakes in the in the initial hours I
mean if you thought this was a an actual kidnapping you would probably want to get the people out of the house and also
as a private investigator told us once if you don't do homicides a lot you don't do homicides well that's
absolutely a great quote and they they weren't known for a lot of homicide cases in Boulder they had had one that
year yeah and so they they did not you know handle the crime scene well and all of
that uh the biggest part of that at least from my perspective is that in in the fall of
1998 which is approaching two years into the crime um the district attorney Alex
Hunter decides to call a grand jury and so that process takes 13 months most murder cases did not take anything like
13 months to reach some sort of conclusion by the grand jury and uh so third the my book came
out in June of 99 the grand jury ended their work in October of 99 and Hunter called a big press
conference and he said we're not going to indict anybody and we're going to seal the grand jury work
forever so here you are 3 months into the most not notorious criminal crime or crime ever in Boulder or
Colorado and uh the public has spent a couple million bucks to try and get an investigation going the grand jury heard
from uh reported about a 100 Witnesses and there were about 30,000 pages of documentation and the result of all of
that is we're going to seal this forever and keep it away from the public this it's curious when it
happened in 1999 it's a whole lot more curious what happens later on and that is essentially
that 14 years go by and the local paper in Boulder the camera sues the District Attorney's office which is now on its
Third District Attorney since the crime occurred and they get four of the 18 pages of the grand jury report released
really four paragraphs four paragraphs and this is I think and we think the probably the most important thing to
convey to the audience listening to this the the four paragraphs state that John and paty ramsy effectively Expos
their daughter to the person or persons or circumstances that led to her death and
and that that's count four and count 7 says that they then participated in the aftermath of the
crime so that is the middle ground for the case that's not saying the ramsy killed their daughter and it's not
saying an intruder came in the house and killed their daughter it's saying that that some other scenario unfolded on
that night and and complete guilt or complete innocence is not the conclusion of the only legal body that's ever
studied the case and reached a legal conclusion it's not that's to me is not only the most significant thing that's
happened in the last you know 27 years legally regarding the case but what's just as significant is that the media
effectively totally ignored this and totally stuck with the Intruder Theory or the Ramsey did it Theory and
to me it's one of the reasons it's just it just shows why the case has been so hard to move forward uh both from the
legal perspective and the media perspective so do you think there's a fundamental question here about this
case what the qu the fundamental question is this why does a district attorney set a grand jury for 13 months
go to all that trouble and expense they reach a legal conclusion that was clear and then you choose to bury
it what is being concealed what's in the other 14 pages why don't they want the public to know that does the public have
the right to know that and what's being covered up that's the fundamental question and to in my view it hasn't
been pursued Enough by the people really look came out of the case you had a close I don't know if I would call it
close but a somewhat working relationship with Alex Hunter who's the district attorney in Boulder at the time
of the murder and you had mentioned to Alex Hunter that you thought that one part of this investigation should be
looking at these child beauty pageants and child pornography that at the time was blowing up on the
internet and he tells you that okay why don't you go and investigate that I can't get Boulder PD to look into
different aspects other than the ramies so clearly right away very early on in 1997 we're already seeing a disconnect
between the District Attorney's office and the police department there was a huge disconnect the police were
essentially focused on the Ramsey family you know the bodies in the house the parents are there and the ransom note is
there yeah and that's just like Joyce said if if you don't do homicide investigations well if you don't follow
the protocols if you don't expand your pool of suspects we talked to one of the mothers and she said she said I'm
appalled that they didn't come to me and take my DNA they should have taken the DNA of a wide wide number people they
did over time but she said I you know I was around that child my hands were on her because she was you know helping
with various things and and she was just startled and then she uh spoke to the grand jury and she was one of the
hundred Witnesses because she was quite close to the situation and we're not we're not saying that we think Randy
Simons is the murderer we're just saying that there seemed to be some sort of connection between
photography and child beauty pageants and photographers surrounding the the the pageants and it should have been
looked into and then fast forward in time when we got a tip through our website and was it
2013 2019 no no no 2013 when that woman came forward through our website and and
she lived in a um a trailer park in Oregon and she said that Randy Simons was living there too and he had offered to
take her small daughter granddaughter to the restroom and she thought it was inappropriate that he should be asking
to do that so she Googled his name and it came up in relation to presumed guilty so she contacted us through the
website and we and we've had a telephone conversation with her so there's that and then in 2019 we get another
a tip from our website saying that Randy Simons has been arrested for 15 counts of child
pornography again in Oregon he had been sitting at a public at a restaurant had used their public Wi-Fi it was
downloading images of child pornography and somebody noticed it at the restaurant and they called the police
and he got arrested and then he got indicted and I think he they gave him 10 years right yeah he pled he PL out out
yeah yeah so there were all of these other tangents to the case which led into you know larger worlds and I I mean
I I initially I liked Alex Hunter I I thought he he was very curious about the the crime and was not closed minded and
and uh I thought you know he was trying to do do some of the right things and the one time that Steve did get a hold
of Randy starmans this was shortly after the crime was committed and he talked to him on the
phone briefly and Randy Simons told Steve I know more about this but I'm not going to tell you he may have said that
to other people as well so uh I so it's it's odd that a 100 days into a criminal investigation if you go
back to April 1997 they don't know who this guy is the district attorney doesn't know who he is
I don't think the police know who he is and because all of their questioning as I was saying earlier about this woman in
the grand jury was about what kind of mother is py Ramsey is she abusive have you seen her you know do something uh
bad with her child or or the bed wedding issue and you know it's just it it just
uh reveals apparently you know how limited the investigation was at least at that
time anyone that's looked at this case for any length of time knows that young Jean Benet Ramsay participated in beauty
pageants not just in the state of Colorado but also in Michigan Georgia and Dallas but one thing that we learned
that I found fascinating was that she was going to be or at least paty wanted her to participate in this very big
prestigious pageant that was going to take place in Las Vegas but her husband John Ramsay
says no way we're not going to Las Vegas to do a child beauty pageant and that was going to take place in 97 yes yeah
not long after the the murder and so why would it be so different to John Ramsay
to have his daughter participate in a pageant in Las Vegas as opposed to Georgia Colorado or Michigan hey know he
lived in Colorado atah Home in Michigan was came from Georgia you know with his business I think he was probably a
little more comfortable in those places I I think and you know I don't I don't want to speak for John but we
heard various from various sources he wasn't that comfortable you know with this whole dressing uh uh John B up like
a show girl and sending her out on stage um but if his wife is a you know a cancer survivor this is something she
loves to do with her daughter and she was she was imp pageant herself right she was Miss West Virginia she went to
the Miss America contest so you know this was a big deal for her and she was had just she was in remission from
ovarian cancer yeah so you know this was a this was her her passion with johnan yeah and John said we we've met
with John you know and had long conversations uh you know I didn't know everything that was going on um I was
very very busy running my business there in Boulder which had become a billion- dooll business and you know he actually
said that so you know I I think he was just kind of going along with it well he he said something to the effect of we we
didn't know we thought Boulder was a nice good place to raise children our children yeah in interviewing him he
said that about four or five times and about the fifth time you you you start to interpret it as we did not know who
our daughter was being exposed to which is almost the language of the grand jury
what not it's not exactly but it is almost the same as saying we didn't really realize who we were surrounded by
and I think that I think he's telling the truth and I think that's about as much as that about that as he could say
so um you know I so I don't I just think he drew the line at Las Vegas because you know it has a reputation for being
quite a bit cheesier than than Boulder Colorado or charoy Michigan and I think he was you know street smart enough to
think that could be getting into a whole other Realm and from your understanding not just within the state
of Colorado but regarding these child pageants were there any types of Licensing Laws standards or regulations
for the pageant circuits or franchises well we're not we're not experts in that area we I don't believe there were I I I
could be wrong but certainly haven't seen any of them anymore you know I mean but then after that there was you know
on on reality television you saw the rise of these Toddlers and Tiaras and those types of programs people are oddly
fascinated with that um that that subculture you know get dressing young girls up with false eyelashes and big
haird and you know it's just it's it's kind of a strange world when the case began and we began looking into the
online stuff 97 there were five 5,000 worldwide child porn sites by 2000 there were
100,000 people simply don't realize how much of this activity was going on and that it wasn't just a a sexual
underground but it was it was business as Joyce alluded to earlier there was money to be made from creating images
selling images manipulating images yeah of that think think how much more money a say a pho a photographer could make if
they were doing illicit things online as opposed to just doing portrait photography or pageant photography Kitty
photography but then what if they you know some of them had some sort of second job
online you know um altering images digitally and buying and selling that's a much more lucrative business now our
our idea was never that Randy saw sign was involved in the crime but like others he had knowledge of some of the
things that we're talking about and and may have well he obviously was connected
to it in some very tangible way at least later on and also two private investigators that we worked with that
were prominent in this case L Smitt and olly gray both told us that they thought
that there was some sort of Photography or videography involved surrounding the case they didn't go into much more
detail because private investigators are notoriously closed lipped about when they what they share with you they they
usually want more information than than you you know get back from them but they
both said that to us and they both uh had access to all of the uh evidence you know which obviously the public doesn't
and that goes back to the grand jury which had access to all of the evidence in the case which was massive what led
them to those conclusions to the conclusions that they reached the public doesn't know that and and it's it's hard
to imagine that they didn't have access to some of this kind of information well
but didn't Oli gray even say to us that there was you know once he started looking into this in Boulder there was a
lot of sexual subculture going on yeah as there would be in most cities you know every city would probably have some
sort of deviant dark sub sexual subculture going on and as time went on we heard about parties in Boulder
involving children and then after parties involving children and this again rais a whole number of questions
and we heard about you know fairly prominent people persist participating in these things and there is no place
around more conscious of its image than Boulder Colorado you know very liberal very affluent very
educated you know very uh you know politically correct Etc they don't want that image defiled and then we were and
then we were given the poems this part I find very fascinating but also very creepy tell us about these poems that
you received and the poems were given to an attorney friend who had appeared on Fox News after we had relayed
information to to him telling him what we thought you know about these alternate theories he goes on television
and like about was it a year or so after Steve he received these poems anonymously marked on the return
envelope for the children Boulder Colorado even though the postmark was in Denver he ended up turning over these
poems to us and they're very sophisticated very cryptic like something Jack the Ripper would have
written but they and they and they turn phrases around in such a sophisticated way it's
astonishing they're online now anybody can dig them up but um the the way that they gave the names of principles in the
case and turned them around and then implied that there was this underbelly going on of sexual abuse of children you
know by by prominent people right and one of the poems named uh an individual this was written in
2001 2000 or 2001 and it named uh an individual named John Rossi who who was not whose name
was not associated with the Ramsay case at all and five years later Rossi was busted on multiple counts of child
pornography uh in Westminster which is very close to Boulder right and and so whoever wrote that poem knew about rosi
knew about child pornography and knew it was kind of as if they were trying to get this information out to the
authorities but didn't want to be associated with it which is very understandable so so rosi was was
arrested he was on Parole he was in the system he was Again part of some you know subculture involving child
pornography um I again went back to the District Attorney's Office in 2000 um around that time and uh said you
know take this to the Boulder Police Department this guy's on parole he's in the system why don't you go interview
him and see if what he knows and nothing ever came of it a man in Fort Collins Colorado just um you know 30 to 45
minute drive or so from from Boulder was arrested in the 1998 or was going to be
arrested in the 1998 Wonderland bus which is a national and international ring of child
pornographers online and he and several other people who were in it immediately committed
suicide and we continue to get information from different totally different uh sources corroborating that
photography may have played a role in this case somehow a a a business associate in California called us one
night and told us that someone had come forward and wanted to tell their story about what they knew about the Ramsey
case he was a photographer but when he was still living in the states his his home was broken into and his his laptop
or his computers were were stolen he then subsequently moved to South America he was so afraid um and then there was
other there were other people oh well it well I mean the whole John Mark Carr story is interesting there that that no
go ahead that's the other well no as most people know in 2006 the summer John markar was brought back from
Thailand uh to Boulder he had more or less said uh that he was present when John B Ned his DNA was tested it didn't
match what was left on the body and uh he was released very quickly I that all seemed U you know pretty roge because
there was no DNA yeah no DNA and then I didn't buy into the story Joyce didn't buy any the story that he was a killer
but he did have computers again going back to the the computer world with allegedly I think or
possibly uh he was an involvement in child porography and then that laptop went missing when the Sonoma County
Sheriff's Department moved their offices there was 175,000 pieces of evidence the only
thing that went missing was John Mark Carr's computer yeah this whole case just has this smell about it of does
does do the authorities really want to solve it and we're we're just posing the question
but that it's the evolution of Alex Hunter from 1997 to going face to face with him and thinking this guy really
wants to know what happened to Let's bury the grand jury report forever but Steve mention about what Wickman said
and then in the summer of 97 I went up and talked to Detective Tom Wickman who was on the Ramsey Force task force and
he was as with all police in the middle of an investigation he wouldn't talk very much but after I L laid out some of
the things we're talking about here especially the Simon thing and the pageant angle and
and are people being protected in this situation and he said you know I he said I I understand that and he told me about
being on a case a few years ago where they he gotten too close to some prominent person in Boulder and they
just took him off the case and then he said you know this case is not what the public thinks it is if this is not what
they think it's about and he wouldn't really open the door much further than that but he told me that the things that
I was presenting to him were very incisive and so you know he was not in the camp that he was absolutely certain
that py did this and and so you know there's just there's an enormous frustration I think at the heart of of
this case and at the you know and and people who looked into it and then also in 2020 um we met in here in Denver with
a retired Colorado Springs homicide detective who was working the night you know a few nights after johnan had been
killed and one of the volunteers on their hotline for tips had him take a call because this guy wanted to give
some information about the Ramsey case so the detective gets on the line and he told he told him this case is not what
you think it is about it's connected to people in high places and then the guy hung up and they couldn't trace the call
because it was he called from a pay phone so now we're getting the same information from totally different
directions corroborating what we've been looking into all these years that's what's kept us on this alternate path
that there there must be some a third door to to be opened right so we have this thing with John Mark Carr they
bring him all the way from overseas magically lose his computer with God knows what was on that thing we also
have somebody like Richard Bruce Thomas who commits suicide in Boulder Police Department never look at his hard drive
either and then we have Randy Simons arrested in 2019 when he had several computers and
he clearly dealing in child born and we went back to the Boulder Police and said
are you you know are you interested in following up on this cuz they that they say the case is open you know they're
still investigating and far as we know you know nothing ever became of it I mean there's no response
and I don't I don't think that happened so speaking of potential leads here are you able to expand on or tell us who the
person is that was referred to as the South California inmate I yeah I'm not going to use names but um again it was a
fascinating situation I'll try and make it brief but we were contacted by a source u in
February of 99 I believe it was that a a it said a contact person in the ramsy case has been arrested in Southern
California for child pornography multiple counts and so Joyce went on the internet and and located a recent arrest
and we identified the person and I flew out there and just decided to meet with him in jail I didn't I didn't want him
to know I was coming and he was very very surprised and figured out quickly what I was looking into and he just said
go talk to my lawyer and so I the lawyers by and I did and then the lawyer eventually said this
guy does know have information about the case he does want to talk you know it might help his legal situation he was
facing multiple counts of child pornography and looking at you know serious time it's also not a lot of fun
to be a child molester uh in in jail and he well I was with him when he talked to
his lawyer about it and he said this I'm being arrest and I'm I'm afraid and all
of this and so the lawyer and I went back to Alex Hunter and said here's a lead developing in Southern
California and he was again seemed very interested and then I flew the lawyer in
Southern California told me come back out here and this guy's going to tell you what he knows and then I went out
again and uh he he shut up he wouldn't say anything thing so again it it it reiterates the Dead Silence at the heart
of this case that nobody has told what they know in my opinion and there are people who know things here about it and
they move right up to the edge of it and then the fear is so great and this may even include Boulder's legal system the
fear is so great of opening this door that you just shut it down so I've made two trips to California I'm sitting
there in front the guy in jail and his lawyer just went Bonkers and he said you said you'd talk to this guy and he said
I don't know anything about that I mean it was it was a classic scene and so Hunter was very disappointed and I was
more than disappointed and that's just that's just been the theme of the whole thing what
is so I mean what's the biggest taboo that humans have you know killing children and adding in the some sexual
component and this case is exactly about that it it has been limited or tried to
be shut down from the beginning in from one angle or another and you know I know
that the Ramy you know say that they've cooperated with the police after a certain period of time and all
that give me one piece of information that's been generated from that that has helped the case I to my knowledge it
doesn't exist so it is dead silence on every side that's law enforcement and that's the defense
team and and so you know here we are we have a document that says what a legal body concluded and and
it is again it is astonishing that the med has not picked up on that and understood it because it
blows the other two scenarios to the side I'm sure in your time of investigating this case and after the
book obviously you probably had a ton of people reach out to you to get information have you had anybody from
the grand jury ever reach out to you no there are people we know who have reached out to the grand jury
and it's it's not that's a very dicey thing legally we would not reach out to the grand jury we don't you know we
don't we wouldn't do that because that that's pretty secret stuff and but we have essentially been
told that the grand jury did hear some things about these parties uh that went on in Boulder and
and uh and and things in that realm that's sexual underground right that's that's the best way to put it involving
children and we have heard that yeah but you can't approach Grand jur no you can't we it's against the law yeah no I
was just curious if any of them have ever reached out to you no it's go ahead we talked about Pam Griffith a little
bit and she says look I don't know why the investigators never took my DNA I'm somebody that was very close with the
ramsy family I was a seamstress for Jean Benet I had a lot of interaction with them is she someone do we know if she
testified at the Grand Jury hearings uh we're not sure about that she may have we don't know but we don't know but Pam
would definitely be a interesting source to talk to about this case the reason why she was an interesting Source was
because she was very straight smart whereas some of the other pageant mothers were were more innocent or but
but she had a certain sense of uh you know who to be suspicious of and who not to let her child alone with more than
the other ones that we spoke with that's what made her interesting to us yeah and
Pam Griffin she is one of the people that tells you that this guy Randy Simons who is involved in the pageants
and taking photographs of John Benet he's called calling me in the middle of the night and saying very strange things
she and other ones she was she was she but other ones corated it but this weirdo is not just saying strange things
yeah he's not just saying I didn't kill John Benet he's saying I don't have an alibi for the night that she was killed
why would he be so upset his DNA was not found at the scene right I mean his whole behavior is bizarre and he did say
he did say that he there was an hour or so the night of the crime that he couldn't account for whatever that meant
but his hysteria in the wake of this just raised fundamental question that's right
walking down the street of um that town in eastern Colorado Genoa Genoa yeah and
he was walking naked how long after the crime was this about a year this was in the fall of 98 yeah and he was he was
arrested for indecent exposure he was walking naked down the street in this very small town in the Eastern Plains
saying I did not kill joh I did not kill jamine again nobody accused him of killing jate sounds like a lot of guilt
yeah and again I don't think guilt for for for what yes for knowledge of something who knows we just try to ask
the right questions we're not claiming to know who the Killer is or what exactly happened we just believe in
asking the right questions and letting people decide people are critical thinkers many are and they can come to
their own conclusions as to why this case hasn't been solved and maybe there are some other Arenas that need to be
looked into if I were the Boulder Police and if this is in fact an open case and
that they are investigating I would have gotten on a plane and gone to Oregon and
sat down with this guy I mean yeah mayed some kind of a bargain yeah he might just like the man in Southern
California and said you know this is a chance to help yourself you know what do you know and to my knowledge that that
never happened so there's this very odd pushpull thing that's gone on for many years you know we want to solve the case
we want to know everything but have you taken these steps to get there what's so strange too
is he's not only telling Pam Griffin that I don't have an alibi for that night but to be clear here he's kind of
saying there's an hour or so that I can't even account for what I was doing almost like I don't know like some kind
of blackout situation well I don't yeah he didn't really explain it again it was
just bizarre hysterical and he did sell pictures of John Manet to uh I think it's called the sigma photo agency in
New York a lot of those pictures are what ended up in the media you know over and over again in the tabloids
everywhere maybe he had some Guild about that I I know the pageant mothers weren't very happy about that yeah he he
you know I think he was upset about all of that but I don't think it would explain walking down the street naked
two years later and telling the police you didn't kill her right when you've never been a suspect in any serious way
right so and Pam Griffin is one of pany Ramsay's biggest protectors over the years and in fact she goes out of her
way to take lots and heaps of criticism for protecting paty Ramsey right Pam had
gone on television in the year in you months after the crime and sort of spoken up for the Rams I mean she
thought the whole idea that py would kill her daughter was absurd and um you know she
uh had been with py uh two days or actually one day after the body was found on December 27th 1997 and and py
was just um you know sharing some things with her that I don't I don't really think have come out in a lot of other
venues uh I it seemed from what she was saying that the that the ramsy were really frightened in the
aftermath of the crime and that uh they you know perhaps they were even being threatened I mean we don't know
but their behavior in the aftermath of crime was was also very unusual in some ways being being being afraid being
threat and being possibly extorted that could explain some unusual behavior on their part again it's speculation but it
made sense to us yeah it could also explain what the grand jury concluded that that they
somehow uh exposed the girl to the circumstances that led to a death and I would insert the word very in capital
letters inadvertently if that's what happened I do not think in any way shape or form and I want to make it totally
clear that I think the Ramsay's intended any harm to come to J I do not think that's what happened in this case I
think that if you go by the what the grand jury said she ended up in those circumstances and in the aftermath of
that uh as Joyce said if you were being threatened if you were if if that was in
the air you know what do you do in those circumstances the grand jury concluded not Joyce and Steve singular the grand
jury concluded that then that they then participated in the aftermath of the crime and you can go read the counts uh
the people who are out there count four and count seven so it it that opens the doorways into more
explanations for how possibly a body and a ransom note got in the same location it might explain some of their behavior
uh in the aftermath of the crime um Pam uh had said that you know they one of the reasons they left uh Boulder was
that they they did not feel safe and and and they went back to to Georgia I believe so I I
think and I again you want to speak very precisely here but I think the ramies were also
victims of this crime well and if you've studied this case you know about the neighbors claims that little John Ben
Ramsay came to her and was telling the story about a secret santa visit at after
Christmas but now we know that that story just didn't come from the neighbor it also came from paty right right that
that's what was told to us but the the neighbor woman Barbara castanic had had an actual conversation that we're aware
of that was documented that John B had told her that on Christmas night she was going to meet
a secret Santa and Barbara castanic said well you're confused because Santa only
comes on Christmas Eve and John pushed back and said no it's Christmas night and so that opens up a doorway
right there uh into what she was talking about and we've never no it's never been released who
was at that Christmas party that they went to that night there was a Christmas party at the Ramsey on December 23rd the
other the the night on the 23d yeah yeah those names have never been released the the names of those
people why why have why doesn't the public have a right to know who was at that party how can that's been squelched
you know and when did something occur at that party that would have set up something for two nights later that's
another question is that what John Benet was referring to that that she was going
somewhere to meet a secret Santa and that opens up the biggest one of the biggest questions of all of the case and
this is speculation and we realize that did she die inside the house is that where the crime
occurred or is it not and Molly Gray who was you know police captain for years in
Houston and a private investigator who worked for both the both of the uh for the BPD and the ramse
and the Ramsay said that they're and this a controversial point because but he thought there would have been blood
in the basement where she was found uh that may or may not be true uh given the skull fracture that she uh
endured that night uh but it's a question worth asking you can't Source the duct tape
that was on our mouth to the house um you can't Source the cord that was around her wrist to the house I mean
the this is what's been reported um it so all of these fundamental questions are in play you know rather
than just well she died in the basement it was an intruder it was the Ramsey I I think
I think all of the evidence that's on the margins if you really look at it it opens up the
definite possibility of other scenarios and so that's what presume guilty was saying in
1999 as far as I know the only book that was opening a third door and that's what the grand jury
report appears to be suggesting in 20 13 uh by the conclusions that it Drew and you put all of that together
and maybe we have no idea what happened that night and and we haven't really cracked
that door doorway at all and there's after 27 years of studying the crime that's sort of you know what I what I I
think can I think what joyon I think and again as she said we're not we're not offering the answers we don't know whose
DNA is on the body but something has to account for the silence around this case and for the
non-release of information around this case and I think those are questions worth
asking and again Pam Griffin is so interesting because as you already pointed out you found her to be very
stri street smart but we also know that she was one of paty's best friends and one of Pat and one of paty's biggest
supporters but one of the most interesting things that she said to you was quote I've always thought that she
meaning paty knew who did this but she didn't know that she knew I think it's exactly what John Ramy was saying when
he said for the fifth time we thought Boulder was a nice Queen upstanding Community I
think I I think to extrapolate from that again the speculation you know we were surrounded
we must have been surrounded by some dangerous people and we didn't know that yeah whether socially in their Social
Circle or in business or in the pageant world no one can say for sure right it's
speculation it's speculation but I think that's what he was saying we didn't know
whom our daughter was being exposed to either through the pageant world with the uh performances on stage or through
our associations with you know others in the community and so I you know it's almost
like what Hannah's saying is you know she doesn't really she doesn't really want to know it's it's
dangerous and I think I I think they would have been highly protective of their remaining
young child Burke at that point who was only nine yeah if they if your six-year-old gets murdered viciously
like that you would be very protective of your remaining small child now John Ramsey still had you know John Edward
who was much older but Burke is not and living with them I I as a mother I would
have been extremely frightened for that other young child at home well that goes
back to what you were saying earlier how the ramies themselves were also victims
of this crime I think the crime is larger than it's been portrayed or or you know laid out to be and I think it
touches on some of what we're talking about prominent individuals in a community
uh um I had contacted the Third District Attorney in the case in 2009 and proposed bringing in a a uh an
individual who touches on all of these things a victim of of uh child abuse and and other and you know related
areas and the district attorney said yes that's a good idea set that in motion and the next day he said we're not going
to do that and again whether there was Merit to this individual story or not the
Dynamics in Play Just were to let's shut it down and and so I just I think that you
know this case had the potential to to to possibly just blow a hole in that community and that may be one of the
reasons that the grand jury report was shut down there are 14 other pages in the grand jury report what's in those 14
pages are individuals named you know what kind of information in there about the crime has never been released I mean
it it would be fascinating to know those things well you and if there was someone
to be um wary of or someone that you should be concerned about you know wouldn't that be of necessity to the
public to to know about that individual or individuals you know I mean Steve you're you're better at this but wasn't
there multiple samples of DNA found on J J's body not not just one there were multiple samples and mixed samples yeah
implying possibly that more people were present when she died than just one person so again it I think it's a a
bigger situation than child WS the bed and mom kills her we want to give a big garage thank
you and cheers to Joyce and Steven singular for being so generous with their time make sure you subscribe on
whatever platform you are listening to us on we thank you so much for joining us here each and every week in the
garage Colonel old spicy one do we have any recommended reading for the beautiful listeners of course we do this
week captain we're going to be recommending Steven singular book presumed guilty an investigation into
the John Benet Ramsay case the media and the culture of pornography and Steven and Joyce pointed
out something very fascinating to me here Captain there's multiple formats for this book the book was originally
released in 1999 but there is an updated version on Kindle the 2016 version which I highly recommend in
the singulars recommend that you check out that version of their book presumed guilty all about the John Benet ramsy
case and if you want to learn more about their other works you can go to Stephens
singular. and that is Stephen S Pen singular. comom and until next week be good be kind and don't litter
[Music] [Applause] [Music]

Jonbenet: Presumed Guilty //////

Episode:722

Part 1 of 1

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

This week we are joined in the Garage by Stephen and Joyce Singular. The Singular’s have been investigating the JonBenet Ramsey murder case since early 1997. Stephen Singular’s 1999 book Presumed Guilty: An Investigation of the JonBenet Ramsey Case, the Media, and the Culture of Pornography is an eye opening read. In which, Singular discusses some of the lesser known characters of the case, his findings, and magnifies the problems with the murder investigation. An updated Kindle version was released in 2016 with new information and some intriguing leads.

For more information on Singular’s books such as his book with FBI retired agent John Douglas and a previous recommended reading selection from True Crime Garage - The Spiral Notebook: The Aurora Theater Shooter and the Epidemic of Mass Violence Committed by American Youth go to www.StephenSingular.com

For everything else True Crime go to www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

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Brief Summary

Steven and Joyce Singular discuss the complexities and overlooked aspects of the JonBenet Ramsey murder case.

Key points

The Tragic Fate of Little Miss Christmas. In a perfect town, a beloved princess is mysteriously slain, shattering the holiday spirit.
A New Perspective on the Ramsey Case. Steven Singular offers insights into the complexities of the John Benet Ramsey investigation.
The Grand Jury's Controversial Decision. After 13 months, the grand jury concludes without indictments, sealing their findings forever.
The Mystery of John Ramsey. John Ramsey's discomfort with Las Vegas pageants raises questions about his daughter's safety.
Dark Secrets in Boulder. Investigators uncover a troubling subculture involving children and prominent individuals in Boulder.
Cryptic Poems and Child Abuse. Anonymously sent poems hint at a dark underbelly of child abuse linked to the case.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

The riddle of the pretty little princess found mysteriously slain.

The mystery surrounding the princess's death is introduced.

4:06WatchDec 12, 2024

Tension

70/ 100High tension

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