Jonbenet: Presumed Guilty ////// 722 | Forensic Files

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[Music] details [Music] oh Once Upon a Time in the perfect town of Boulder there was a pretty little
princess who everyone loved Little Miss Christmas they called her she lived in a
castle with the prince and the king and queen she was very happy and quite wise for her
years off to the fairest of them all contests she would go with her mother the queen before crowds of people she
would dance and sing in costumes and gowns a top of Parade floats she would smile and wave to the town's people and
their children she was the Envy of several and caught the eye of more than a few at the very heart of a holiday
season filled with parties and feast was the Annual Festival to celebrate the birth of the Christ
child a day of gifts and Gathering Good Tidings and well wishes for the year to come it was on this day that little miss
Christmas shined so bright with enthusiasm laughter and cheer she was a pretty little princess in a perfect
little town she was so happy and so was everyone around her or so they thought by day's end it was on this
night that the king and the queen would return the little princess and the prince back to the castle for a night of
Slumber and dreams before the adventure of a new day but something was was not right in
fact something was terribly wrong and a great tragedy befell the little princess under the black cloak of the
night the princess was mysteriously slain threats and instructions were delivered a ransom was demanded but
never collected rules and Promises were broken the authorities were summoned and
the priest in Fellowship arrived D the castle was full and the king and queen surrounded the princess was
found she'd been killed and displayed in a hellish fashion left strangled and bound in the darkest depths of the
Castle's dungeon surely the killer was an enemy a monstrous Maniac who penetrated
the castle walls to slay the little princess or perhaps it was an evil from within was the princess a victim of a
dirty little secret or the violent Rage of one of her own and so it was written and so it was
told the riddle of the pretty little princess found mysteriously slain inside her
castle the authorities the town's people and the looky L who came from near and far declared there were only two
possible solutions to this quandry the family or an intruder this is true crab garage very excited today Captain
because veteran crime journalist Steven singular is joining us here today in the
garage with his wife Joyce to offer an original perspective on the killing of John Benet Ramsey Steven singular was in
Boulder Colorado for much of the murder investigation in his book presumed guilty stevenh singular methodically
details a volatile situation he asserts that great confusion in the public perception of the case inflamed tensions
among the district attorney and the Boulder Police Department and other factions to a point where the
investigation may be stalemated singular perspective exploration of the near Universal call for the Ramsay's heads
reveals the gritty power struggles and class schisms that underline the shiny comforting facade of the boulder region
Steven singular calls into question and overlooked possible very important aspect of this case John Benet was was
merely one of many little girls leeringly displayed as things of beauty by the child pageant industry whose evil
twin is the child porn producers and collectors which in the '90s was hugely expanded because of the internet
although Steven claims at points to have uncovered voluminous evidence he incorporates a few of the particulars
giving his own conspiracy theory singular ultimate scenario that neither parent personally murdered John Benet
but one parents unwitting involvement led to attempts at concealment Bears consideration and that is why I invited
Stephen and Joyce singular to join us here today in the garage to discuss many of the aspects of this case that I would
wager that many have never heard of before we want to welcome you to the garage and thanks for joining us here
today Stephen and Joyce for years we've been spoonfed this idea that we have to come to one of the the following two
conclusions in this case either the family did it or an intruder did it and you say maybe there's some other
questions that we should be asking about this still unsolved murder case so Mr Singler why not the ramies there was no
pathology at all emerging from the Ramsay family uh no even anecdotal examples of you know slapping
a child or abusing a child in some way um no no connection of John to that sort of thing either so it it it was just uh
looking like this might be a more complicated case than was basically being presented as soon as the py did it
Theory came out on the one hand you know the Ramsay themselves were were promoting or their team I should say
their legal team more the idea of the Intruder did it but when you look at that as far as I am aware there there
has never been a case in American Crime history where there's a body and a ransom note in the same location and so
that raised all kinds of questions and issues that didn't seem to make any sense so we started just thinking I mean
again months go by and all of January all of February all of March about a 100 days and there's no movement at all in
the case and we started to BAS basically asked the question is there a third option here and then you have to
remember that this was the beginning also of the 24hour cable news cycle so they kept
repeat repeatedly showing that the images of jine you know walking across the stage in various costumes singing
dancing this was shown a lot and it got into people's psyche and Consciousness and people started you know making
judgments and you know people would um even local media people um talk show hosts
would you know just pound into the microphone that oh paty did it paty had to have done it paty did it you know py
did this paty did that and we just thought that was wrong to be potentially influencing a jury pool you know um and
so we we just just decided to go look in other areas that hadn't and weren't being investigated
right so as Joyce said earlier when we we started talking to the pageant mothers who again some of them knew Psy
quite well and uh and knew John banet and they kept telling us the same story over and over again that that her
primary photographer Randy Simons had behaved very bizarrely in the aftermath of the murder they' hadd known him for
years he'd taken pictures of their daughters at pageants and other venues and they said he was calling them up
after midnight screaming and crying saying I did not kill John Benet I did not kill John Benet but nobody had
accused him of killing John man he so it was like me thinks he does protest too much it was very odd very odd that he is
defending himself when nobody's accusing him of the crime was there anything odd
or weird about the ramies the one thing about the Ramsay family that was unusual
was that they did dressed John B up like this and you know put her out into the world of beauty pageants some of the
mothers said that there were very suspect characters that came to the to the child pageant and were in that world
uh even people they had asked to to be removed from it so it is true that that that was unusual that py did that with
John Benet but that open the whole case up to a whole other subcultures well it wasn't it wasn't
unusual in the fact that the pageant the pageant world was much more prevalent in
the South it was a much bigger deal in the southern states than it was here in the northern states you know of course
you would see the random Kitty pageant if you went to a mall back in those days but the the what we thought was that you
know J was an extraordinarily beautiful child and she would had a lot of makeup on and a lot of provocative costumes and
we the natural thought was who might have inadvertently been sexually charged by watching her in in those in those
pageant or in those costumes who who might you be inadvertently stimulating you know um a
sponsor a spectator a judge anybody right so again a 100 days went by there was no movement in the case I decided to
contact the district attorney and Boulder Alex Hunter and and to my real surprise he invited me to come up there
and meet with him and talk about some of the things that that you know we've been
looking into some of the people we've been talking to and the whole internet angle of this with child porn just uh
seemingly running rampid you know he he didn't know the name of Randy Simons when Steve presented it to him he didn't
know yeah and then he and then when the more information Steve gave him about what we had seen on the uh on the on the
web he said why don't you conduct a parallel investigation and go look into this because the Boulder police were not
looking at any other of those angles right he said I really can't get the Boulder Police to investigate anything
outside the Ramsey family and what he was saying was extremely odd if you really stop and think about it because
you know going further into that internet world I mean basically you're committing a crime if you're downloading
child poror or if you're trying to you know access it off the internet so I think it was more just very indicative
of his frustration in in not being able to sort of enlarge the case and so you know we
contined to look into Simons and uh and again some of the pageant mothers and again we took information to and this
went on for a couple of months so it was clear I mean as time went on it was just
seeming to be more more clear that this is not a simple case and why if it's if it's a complex case should we be limited
to two choices so the book the first version of Presumed guilty came out in July of and June of
1999 which by that time is 2 and a half years into the case there's still no movement in the case and so that's third
scenario is being offered up and the third scenario essentially said what if the
Ramsay R the Ramsay have been presented either totally guilty or totally innocent uh what if there's some space
in between there what if they would be may be guilty of something but not guilty of murder is that a possibility
and would that explain some of the complexities on the surface of the crime such as a body and a ransom that found
in the same place you met a lot of the players involved and at times your book dances around this idea that maybe there
are certain people involved in this investigation that don't really want to fully investigate or solve this case I
found it so interesting that in April of 1997 the ramsy camp publicly stated that
the the leadership in the Boulder Police Department lacks the objectivity and judgment necessary to find the killer of
John Benet Ramsay that's a quote so that's similar ideas can you talk about some of the players that you met along
the way and talk about the possibility that they may not either want to solve it or may not have the capabilities to
solve this case one of the aspects of this and the kind of big big view of it and the title you know there is the word
the media and one of the things that happens many times in criminal cases is that you
know the event happens and then the media presents it in a certain way and it is just extremely difficult to get
past you know that first wave of what is presented to the public I mean that's been that's the ramsy case is sort of
the ultimate example of it so 27 years later if you go on the internet today you'll have two groups arguing one will
be Idis the Intruder did it the other group will be RDI the ramsy did it and there's no there's no other alternative
and so that has always been a part of what's fascinated me you know with crime in the modern media and the Ramsey case
is the is the biggest example of it I mean 27 years later you think new idea might be able to enter the
conversation so what happened in the in the Boulder Police Department I mean yes
they were under staffed on the day of the crime yes they did make mistakes in the in the initial hours I mean if you
thought this was a an actual kidnapping you would probably want to get the people out of the house and also as a
private investigator told us once if you don't do homicides a lot you don't do homicides well that's
absolutely a great quote and they they weren't known for a lot of homicide cases in Boulder they had one that year
yeah and so they they did not you know handle the crime scene well and all of that uh the biggest part of that at
least from my perspective is that in in the fall of 1998 which is approaching 2 years years
into the crime um the district attorney Alex Hunter decides to call a grand jury and so that process takes 13 months
most murder cases did not take anything like 13 months to reach some sort of conclusion by the grand
jury and uh so thir the my book came out in June of 99 the grand jury ended their
work in October of 99 and Hunter called a big press conference and he said we're not going to indict
anybody and we're going to seal the grand jury's work forever so here you are three months
into the most nor notorious criminal crime or crime ever in Boulder or Colorado and uh the public has spent a
couple million bucks to try and get an investigation going the grand jury heard from uh reported
about a 100 Witnesses and there were about 30,000 pages of documentation and the result of all of
that is we're going to seal this forever and keep it away from the public this it's curious when it
happened in 1999 it's a whole lot more curious what happens later on and that is essentially
that 14 years go by and the local paper and Boulder the camera SES the District Attorney's office which is now on its
Third District Attorney since the crime occurred and they get four of the 18 pages of the grand jury report released
really four paragraphs four paragraphs and this is I think and we think the probably the most important thing to
convey to the audience listening to this the the four paragraphs state that John and paty Ramsey effectively expose
their daughter to the person or persons or circumstances that led to her death and
that that's count 4 and count 7even says that they then participated in the aftermath of the
crime so that is the middle ground for the case that's not saying the ramsy killed their daughter and it's not
saying an intruder came in the house and killed their daughter it's saying that that some other scenario unfolded on
that night and it and complete guilt or complete innocence is not the conclusion
of the only legal body that's ever studied the case and reached a legal conclusion it's not that to me is not
only the most significant thing that's happened in the last you know 27 years legally regarding the case but what's
just as significant is that the media of effectively totally ignored this and totally stuck with the Intruder Theory
or the Ramsey did it Theory and to me it's one of the reasons it's just it just shows why the case has been
so hard to move forward uh both from the legal perspective and the media perspective so do you think there's a
fundamental question here about this case what the qu the fundamental question is this why does a district
attorney sit a grand jury for 13 months go to all that trouble and expense they reach a legal conclusion that was clear
and then you choose to bury it what is being concealed what's in the other 14 pages why don't they want the
public to know that does the public have the right to know that and what's being
covered up that's the fun FAL question and to in my view it hasn't been pursued Enough by the people really looking into
the case you had a close I don't know if I would call it close but a somewhat working relationship with Alex Hunter
who's the district attorney in Boulder at the time of the murder and you had mentioned to Alex Hunter that you
thought that one part of this investigation should be looking at these child beauty pageants and child
pornography that at the time was blowing up on the internet and he tells you that okay why
don't you go and investigate that I can't get Boulder PD to look into different aspects other than the Ramsay
so clearly right away very early on in 1997 we're already seeing a disconnect between the District Attorney's office
and the police department there was a huge disconnect that police were essentially focused on the Ramsey family
you know the bodies in the house the parents are there and the ransom note is there yeah and let just like Joyce said
if if you don't do homicide investigations well if you don't follow the protocols if you don't expand your
pool of suspects we talked to one of the mothers and she said she said I I'm appalled that they didn't come to me and
take my DNA they should have taken the DNA of a wide wide number of people they did over time but she said I you know I
was around that child my hands were on her because she was you know helping with various things and and she was just
startled and then she uh spoke to the grand jury and she was one of the hundred Witnesses because she was quite
close to the situation and we're not we're not saying that we think Randy Simons is the murderer we're just saying
that there seem to be some sort of connection between photography and child beauty pageants
and photographers surrounding the the the pageants and it should have been looked into and then fast forward in
time when we got a tip through our website and was it 2013 2019 no no 2013 when that woman
came forward through our website and and she lived in a um a trailer park in Oregon and she said that Randy Simons
was living there too and he had offered to take her small daughter granddaughter
to the restroom and she thought it was inappropriate that he should be asking to do that so she Googled his name and
it came up in relation to presumed guilty so she contacted us through the website and we and we've had a telephone
conversation with her so there's that and then in 2019 we get another tip from our website saying that
Randy Simons has been arrested for 15 counts of child pornography again in Oregon he had been
sitting at a public at a restaurant had used their public Wi-Fi and was downloading images of child pornography
and somebody noticed it at the restaurant and they called the police and he got arrested and then he got
indicted and I think they gave him 10 years right yeah he pled he PL out out yeah yeah so there were all of these
other tangents to the case which led into you know larger worlds and I I mean I I initially I liked Alex Hunter I I
thought he he was very curious about the the crime and was not closed-minded and and uh I thought you
know he was trying to do some of the right things and the one time that Steve did get a hold of Randy starmans this
was shortly after the crime was committed and he talked to him on the phone briefly and Randy Simons told
Steve I know more about this but I'm not going to tell you and he may have said that to other people as well so uh I so
it's it's odd that a 100 days into a criminal investigation if you go back to April
1997 they don't know who this guy is the district attorney doesn't know who he is
I don't think the police know who he is and because all of their questioning as I was saying earlier about this woman in
the grand jury was about what kind of mother is py Ramsey is she abusive have you seen her you know do something uh
bad with her child or or the bed wedding issue and you know it's just it it just
uh reveals apparently you know how limited the investigation was at least at that
time anyone that's looked at this case for any length of time knows that young Jean Benet Ramsay participated in beauty
pageants not just in the state of Colorado but also in Michigan Georgia and Dallas but one thing that we learned
that I found fascinating was that she was going to be or at least py wanted her to participate in this very big
prestigious pageant that was going to take place in Las Vegas but her husband John Ramsey says no way we're not going
to Las Vegas to do a child beauty pageant and that was going to take place in 97 yes yeah not long after the the
murder so why would it be so different to John Ramsay to have his daughter participate in a pageant in Las Vegas as
opposed to Georgia Colorado or Michigan you know he lived in Colorado atah Home in Michigan was came from Georgia you
know with his business I think he was probably a little more comfortable in those
places I I think and you know I don't I don't want to speak for John but we heard various from various sources he
wasn't that com comfortable you know with this whole dressing uh uh John B up like a show girl and sending her out on
stage um but if his wife is a you know a cancer survivor this is something she loves to do with her daughter and she
was she was in pageants herself right she was Miss West Virginia she went to the Miss America contest so you know
this was a big deal for her and she was had just she was in remission from ovarian cancer yeah so so you know this
is a this is her her passion with jate yeah and John said we we've met with John you know and had long
conversations uh you know I didn't know everything that was going on um I was very very busy running my business there
in Boulder which had become a billion dooll business and you know he actually said that so you know I I think he was
just kind of going along with it well he he said something to the effect of we we
didn't know we thought Boulder was a nice good place to raise children our children yeah in interviewing him he
said that about four or five times and about the fifth time you you you start to interpret it as we did not know who
our daughter was being exposed to which is almost the language of the grand jury
what not it's not exactly but it is almost the same as saying we didn't really realize who we were surrounded by
and I think that I think he's telling the truth and I think that's about as much as that about that as he could say
so um you know I so I don't I just think he drew the line at Las Vegas because you know has a reputation for being
quite a bit cheesier than than Boulder Colorado or Char boy Michigan and I think he was you know street smart
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today and from your understanding not just within the state of Colorado but regarding these child
pageants were there any types of of Licensing Laws standards or regulations for the pageant circuits or franchises
well we're not we're not experts in that area we I don't believe there were I I I
could be wrong but certainly haven't seen any of them anymore you know I mean but then after that there was you know
on on reality television you saw the rise of these Toddlers and Tiaras and those types of programs people are oddly
fascinated with that um that that subculture you know get dress seen young girls up with false eyelashes and big
haird and you know it's just it's it's kind of a strange world when the case began and we began looking into the
online stuff 97 there were 5,000 worldwide child porn sites by 2000 there were 100,000 people simply don't realize how
much of this activity was going on and that it wasn't just a a sexual underground but it was it was business
as Joyce alluded to earlier there was money to be made from creating images selling images manipulating images yeah
and all of that think think how much more money a say a pH a photographer could make if they were doing illicit
things online as opposed to just doing portrait photography or pageant photography Kitty photography but then
what if they you know some of them had some sort of second job online you know um altering images
digitally and buying and selling that's a much more lucrative business now our our idea was never that Randy s Simons
was involved in the crime but like others he had knowledge of some of the things that we're talking about and and
may have well he obviously was connected to it and some very tangible way at least later on and also two private
investigators that we worked with that were prominent in this case L SMI and olly gray both told us that they thought
that there was some sort of Photography or videography involved surrounding the case they didn't go into much more
detail because private investigators are notoriously closed lipped about when they what they share with you they they
usually want more information than than you you know get back from them but they
both said that to us and they both uh had access to all of the uh evidence you know which obviously the public doesn't
and that goes back to the grand jury which had access to all of the evidence in the case which was massive what led
them to those conclusions to the conclusions that they reached the public doesn't know that and and it's it's hard
to imagine that they didn't have access to some of this kind of information well
but didn't olly gray even say to us that there was you know once he started looking into this in Boulder there was a
lot of sexual subculture going on yeah as there would be in most cities you know every city would probably have some
sort of deviant dark sub sexual subculture going on and as time went on we heard about parties and Boulder
involving children and then after parties involving children and this again raise a whole number of
questions and we heard about you know fairly prominent people persist participating in these things and there
is no place around more conscious of its image than Boulder Colorado you know very liberal very affluent very educated
you know very uh you know politically correct Etc they don't want that image defiled and then we were and then we
were given the poems this part I find very fascinating but also very creepy tell us about these poems that you
received and the poems were given to an attorney friend who had appeared on Fox News after we had relayed information to
to him telling him what we thought you know about these alternate theories he goes on television and like about was it
a year or so after Steve he received these poems anonymously marked on the return envelope for the children Boulder
Colorado even though the postmark was in Denver he ended up turning over these poems to us and they're very
sophisticated very cryptic like something Jack the Ripper would have written but they and they and they turn
phrases around in such a sophisticated way it's astonishing they're online now anybody
can dig them up but um the the way that they gave the names of principles in in the case and turned them around and then
implied that there was this underbelly going on of sexual abuse of children you know by by prominent
people right and one of the poems named U an individual this was written in 2001 2000 or
2001 and it named an individual named John Rossy who's who was not whose name was not a iated with the Ramsey case at
all and 5 years later Rossi was busted on multiple counts of child pornography uh in Westminster which is
very close to Boulder right and and so whoever wrote that poem knew about Rossi knew about child pornography and knew it
was kind of as if they were trying to get this information out to the authorities but didn't want want to be
associated with it which is very understandable so so rosi was was arrested he was on Parole he was in the
system he was Again part of some you know subculture involving child pornography um I again went back to the
District Attorney's Office in 2000 um around that time and uh said you know take this to the Boulder Police
Department this guy's on parole he's in the system why don't you go interview him and see
if what he knows and nothing ever came of it a man in Fort Collins Colorado just um you know 30 to 45 minute drive
or so from Boulder was arrested in the 1998 or was going to be arrested in the 1998 Wonderland bus which is a national
and international ring of child pornography online and he and several other people
who were in it immediately committed suicide and we contined to get information from different totally
different uh sources corroborating that photography may have played a role in this case somehow a a a business
associate in California called us one night and told us that someone had come forward and wanted to tell their story
about what they knew about the Ramsey case he was a photographer but when he was still living in the states his his
home was broken into and his his laptop or his computers were were stolen he then subsequently moved to South America
he was so afraid um and then there was other there were other people oh well I mean the whole John Mark Carr
story is interesting there that that no go ahead that's the other well no as most people know in 2006 the summer John
markar was brought back from Thailand uh to Boulder he had more or less said uh that he was present when
John bed his DNA was tested it didn't match what was left on the body and uh he was released very quickly that all
seemed uh you know pretty road because there was no DNA yeah no DNA and then I didn't buy into the story Joyce didn't
buy into the story that he was a killer but he did have computer ERS again going
back to the the computer world with allegedly I think or possibly uh he was an involvement in child pornography and
then that laptop went missing when the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department moved their offices there was 175,000 pieces
of evidence the only thing that went missing was John Mark car Carr's computer yeah this whole case just has
this smell about it of does does do the authorities really want to solve it and we're we're just posing the question
but that it's the evolution of Alex Hunter from 1997 to going face to face with him and thinking this guy really
wants to know what happened to Let's bury the grand jury report forever but Steve mention about what Wickman said
and then in the summer of 97 I went up and talked to Detective Tom Wickman who was on the Ramsey Force task force and
he was as with all police in the middle of an investigation he wouldn't talk very much but after I laid out some of
the things we're talking about here especially the Simon thing and the pageant angle and
and are people being protected in this situ ation and he said you know I he said I I understand that and he told me
about being on a case a few years ago where they he' gotten too close to some prominent person in Boulder and they
just took him off the case and then he said you know this case is not what the public thinks it is it's this is not
what they think it's about and he wouldn't really open the door much further than that but he told me that
the things that I was presenting to him were very incisive and so you know he was not in the camp that he was
absolutely certain that py did this and and so you know there's just there's an enormous frustration I think at the
heart of of this case and at the you know and people who have looked into it and then also in 2020 um we met in here
in Denver with a retired colorz Springs homicide detective who was working the night you know a few nights after
John B had been killed and one of the volunteers on their hotline for tips had him take a call because this guy wanted
to give some information about the Ramsay case so the detective gets on the line and he told he told him this case
is not what you think it is about it's connected to people in high places and then the guy hung up and they couldn't
trace the call because it was he called from a pay phone so now getting the same
information from totally different directions corroborating what we've been looking into all these years that's
what's kept us on this alternate path that there there must be some a third door to to be opened right so we have
this thing with John Mar Carr they bring him all the way from overseas magically
lose his computer with God knows what was on that thing we also have somebody like Richard Bruce Thomas who commits
suicide and Boulder Police Department never look at his hard drive either and then we have Randy
Simons arrested in 2019 when he had several computers and clearly dealing in child porn and we
went back to the Boulder Police and said are you you know are you interested in following up on this because they that
they say the case is open you know they're still investigating and as far as we know you nothing ever
became of it I mean there's no response and I don't I don't think that happened so speaking of potential leads here are
you able to expand on or tell us who the person is that was referred to as the South California inmate I yeah I'm not
going to use names but um again it was a fascinating situation I'll try and make
it brief but we were contacted by a source um in February of 99 I believe it was that a a
that a contact person in the ramsy case has been arrested in Southern California
for child pornography multiple counts and so Joyce went on the internet and located a recent arrest and we
identified the person and I flew out there and and just decided to meet with him in jail I didn't I didn't want him
to know I was coming and he was very very surprised and figured out quickly what I was looking into and he just said
go talk to my lawyer and so I the lawyers nearby and I did and then the lawyer eventually said
this guy does know have information about the case he does want to talk you know it might help his legal situation
he was facing multiple counts of child pornography and looking at you know serious time it's also not a lot of fun
to be a child molester uh in in jail and he well I was with him when he talked to
his lawyer about and he said this I'm being harassed and I'm I'm afraid and all of this and so the lawyer and I went
back to Alex Hunter and said here's a lead developing in Southern California and he he was again seemed
very interested and then I flew the lawyer in Southern California told me come back
out here and this guy's going to tell you what he knows and then I went out again and uh he he shut up he wouldn't
say anything so again it it it reiterates the Dead Silence at the heart of this case that nobody has told what
they know in my opinion and there are people who know things here about it and they move right up to the edge of it and
then the fear is so great and this may even include Boulder's legal system the fear is so great of opening this door
that you just shut it down so I've made two trips to California I'm sitting there in front of the guy in jail and
his lawyer just went Bonkers and he said you said you'd talk to this guy and he said I don't know anything about that I
mean it was it was a classic scene and so Hunter was very disappointed and I was more than
disappointed and that's just that's just been the theme of the whole thing what is so I mean what's the biggest taboo
that humans have you know killing children and adding in some sexual component and this case is exactly about
that it it has been limited or tried to be shut down from the beginning and and from one angle or another and you know I
know that the ramies you know say that they've cooperated with the police after a certain period of time and all
that give me one piece of information that's been generated from that that has helped the case I to my knowledge it
doesn't exist so it is dead silence on every side that's law enforcement and that's the defense
team and and so you know here we are we have a document that says what a legal body concluded and and
it is again it is astonishing that the media has not picked up on that and understood it
because it blows the other two scenarios to the side I'm sure in your time of investigating this case and after the
book obviously you probably had a ton of people reach out to you to get information have you had anybody from
the grand jury ever reach out to you no there are people we know who have reached out to the grand
jury and it's it's not that's a very dicey thing legally we would not reach out to
the grand jury we don't you know we don't we wouldn't do that cuz that that's pretty secret stuff and but we
have essentially been told that the grand jury did hear some things about these parties uh that went on in Boulder and U
and in and things in that realm that's sexual underground right that's that's the best way to put it involving
children and we have heard that yeah but you can't approach Grand jur no you can't we it's against the law yeah
no I was just curious if any of them have ever reached out to you no it's go ahead we talked about Pam Griffith a
little bit and she says look I don't know why the investigators never took my DNA I'm somebody that was very close
with the Ramsay family I was a seamstress for Jean Ben I had a lot of interaction with them is she someone do
we know if she testified at the Grand Jury hearings um we're not sure about that she may have we don't know but we
don't know but Pam would definitely be an interesting source to talk to about this case the reason why she was an
interesting source is because she was very stet smart whereas some of the other pageant mothers were were more
innocent or but but she had a certain sense of uh you know who to be suspicious of and who not to let her
child alone with more than the other ones that we spoke with that's what made her interesting to us yeah and Pam
Griffin she is one of the people that tells you that this guy Randy Simons who is involved in the pageants and taking
photographs of John B he's calling me in the middle of the night and saying very
strange things she and other ones she was she was she but other ones corroborated it but this weirdo is not
just saying strange things yeah he's not just saying I didn't kill John Benet he's saying I don't have an alibi for
the night that she was killed why would he be so upset his DNA was not found at the scene right I mean his whole
behavior is bizarre and he did say he did say that there was an hour or so the night of the crime that he couldn't
account for whatever that meant but his hysteria in the wake of this just raised
from the oh that's right walking down the street of um that town in eastern Colorado Gena Genoa yeah and he was
walking naked how long after the crime was this about a year this was in the fall of 98 yeah and he was he was
arrested for indecent exposure he was walking naked down the street in this very small town in the Eastern Plains
saying I did not kill johnan I did not kill johnan again nobody accused him of killing J sounds like a lot of guilt
yeah and again don't for for for what yes for knowledge of something who knows we just try to ask the right questions
we're not claiming to know who the Killer is or what exactly happened we just believe in asking the right
questions and letting people decide people are critical thinkers many are and they can come to their own
conclusions as to why this case hasn't been solved and maybe there are some other Arenas that need to be looked into
if I were the Boulder Police and if this is in fact an open case that they are investigating I would have gotten on a
plane and gone to Oregon and sat down with this guy I mean yeah heed some kind of a bargain yeah he might just like the
man in Southern California and said you know this is a chance to help yourself you know what do you know and to my
knowledge that that never happened so there's this very odd pushpull thing that's gone on for many
years you know we want to solve the case we want to know everything but have you taken these
steps to get there what's so strange too is he's not only telling Pam Griffin that I don't have an alibi for that
night but to be clear here he's kind of saying there's an hour or so that I can't even account for what I was doing
almost like I don't know like some kind of blackout situation well I don't yeah he didn't really explain it it again it
was just bizarre hysterical and he did sell pictures of John Manet to uh I think it's called the sigma photo agency
in New York a lot of those pictures are what ended up in the media you know over
and over again in the tabloids everywhere maybe he had some guilt about that I I know the pageant mothers
weren't very happy about that yeah he he you know I think he was upset about all
of that but I don't think it would explain walking down stre naked two years later and telling the police you
didn't kill her right when you've never been a suspect in any serious way right so and Pam Griffin is one of paty
Ramsay's biggest protectors over the years and in fact she goes out of her way to take lots and heaps of criticism
for protecting paty Ramsey right Pam had gone on television in the Years in you know months after the crime and sort of
spoken up to the Ramsay I mean she thought the whole idea that py would kill her daughter was
absurd and uh you know she uh had been with paty uh two days or actually one day after the body was
found on December 27th 1997 and and py was just um you know sharing some things with her that I don't I don't really
think it come out in a lot of other venues uh I it's seemed from what she was saying that the that the ramies were
really frightened in the aftermath of the crime and that uh they you know perhaps they were even
being threatened I mean we don't know but their behavior in the aftermath of crime was was also very unusual usual in
some ways being being being afraid being threatened being possibly extorted that
could explain some unusual behavior on their part again it's speculation but it made sense to us yeah it could also
explain what the grand jury concluded that that they somehow uh exposed the girl
to the circumstances that led to her death and I would insert the word very in capital letter
inadvertently if that's what happened I do not think in any way shape or form and I want to make it totally clear that
I think the Ramsey's intended any harm to come to Jin AG I do not think that's what happened in this case I think that
if you go by the what the grand jury said she ended up in those circumstances and in the aftermath of that uh as Joyce
said if you were being threatened if you were if if that was in the air you know
what do you do in those circumstances the grand jury concluded not Joyce and Steve singular the grand jury
concluded that then that they then participated in the aftermath of the crime and you can go read the count uh
the people who are out there count four and count seven so it it that opens the doorways into more
explanations for how possibly a body and a ransom that got in the same location it might explain some of their behavior
uh in the aftermath of the crime um Pam uh had said that you know they one of the reasons they left uh Boulder was
that they they did not feel safe and and and they went back to to Georgia I believe so I I
think and I again you want to speak very precisely here but I think the ramies were also victims of this crime well and
if you've studied this case you know about the neighbors claims that little John Bay Ramsay came to her and was
telling the story about a secret santa visit after Christmas but now we know that that
story just didn't come from the neighbor it also came from paty right right that's that's what was told to us but
the the neighbor woman Barbara castanic had had an actual conversation that we're aware of there was
documented that John B had told her that on Christmas night she was going to meet
a secret Santa and Barbara tanic said well you're confused because Santa only comes on Christmas Eve and John man
pushed back and said no it's Christmas night and so that opens up a doorway right there uh into
what she was talking about and we've never no it's never been released who was at that Christmas party that they
went to that night there was a Christmas party at the ramies on December 23rd the
other the the night on the 23d yeah yeah those names have never been released the the names of those
people why why hav why doesn't the public have a right to know who was at that party how can that's been squelched
you know and what did something occur at that party that would have set up something for two nights later that's
another question is that what John Benet was referring to that that she was going
somewhere to meet a secret Santa and that opens up the biggest one of the biggest questions of all of the case and
this is speculation and we realized that did she die inside the house is that where the crime occurred
or is it not and Molly Gray who was you know police captain for years in Houston
and a private investigator who worked for both the both of the uh for the BPD and the Ramsey and the ramies said that
there and this is a controversial point because but he thought there would have been and blood in the basement where she
was found uh that may or may not be true uh given the skull fracture that she uh
endured that night uh but it's a question worth asking you can't Source the duct tape
that was on her mouth to the house um you can't Source the cord that was around her wrist to the house I mean
this is what's been reported um it so all of these fundamental questions are in play you know rather
than just well she died in the basement there was an intruder it was the Ramsey I I think I think all of
the evidence that's on the margins if you really look at it it opens up the definite possibility of other scenarios
and so that's what presume guilty was saying in 1999 as far as I know the only book that
was opening a third door and that's what the grand jury report appears to be suggesting in
2013 uh by the conclusions that it Drew and you put all of that together and maybe we have no
idea what happened that night and and we haven't really cracked that door doorway at
all and as after 27 years of studying the crime that's sort of you know what I what I I think can I think what Joyce
and I think and again as she said we're not we're not offering the answers we don't know whose DNA is on the
body but something has to account for the silence around this case and for the non-release of information around this
case and I think those are questions worth asking and again Pam Griffin is so interesting because as you already
pointed out you found her to be very street smart but we also know that she was one of paty's best friends and one
of Pat and one of paty's biggest supporters but one of the most interesting things that she said to you
was quote I've always thought that she meaning py knew who did this but she didn't know that she knew I think it's
exactly what John Ramsey was saying when he said for the fifth time we thought Boulder was a nice clean upstanding
Community I think I think to extrapolate from that and again the speculation you know we were surrounded
we must have been surrounded by some dangerous people and we didn't know that yeah whether socially in their Social
Circle or in business or in the pageant world no one can say for sure right it's
speculation it's speculation but I think that's what he was saying we didn't know
whom our daughter was being exposed to either through the pageant world with the uh performances on stage
or through our associations with you know others in the community and so I you know it's almost
like what Tam is saying is you know she doesn't really she doesn't really want to know it's it's
dangerous and I think I I think they would have been highly protective of their remaining
Young child Burke at that point who was only nine yeah if your if your six-year-old gets murdered viciously
like that you would be very protective of your remaining small child now John Ramsey still had you know John Edward
who was much older but Burke was nine in living with them I I as a mother I would
have been extremely frightened for that other young child at home well that goes
back to what you were saying earlier how the rain ramies themselves were also victims of this crime I think the crime
is larger than it's been portrayed or or you know laid out to be and I think it touches on some of what we're talking
about prominent individuals in a community uh I had contacted the Third District
Attorney in the case in 2009 and proposed bringing in a a uh an individual who touches on all of these
things a victim of of uh child abuse and and other and you know related areas and the district attorney said yes
that's a good idea set that in motion and the next day he said we're not going to do
that and again whether there was Merit to this individual story or not the Dynamics in Play Just were let's shut it
down and and so I just I think that you know this case had the potential to to to possibly just blow a hole in that
community and that may be one of the reasons that the grand jury report was shut down there are 14 other pages in
the grand jury report what's in those 14 pages are individuals named you know what kind of information in there about
the crime has never been released I mean it it would be fascinating to know those
things well you and if there was someone to be um war of or someone that you should be concerned about you know
wouldn't that be of necessity to the public to to know about that individual or individuals you know I mean Steve
you're you're better at this but wasn't there multiple samples of DNA found on J
J's body not not just one there were multiple samples in mixed samples yeah implying possibly that more people were
present when she died than just one person so again it I think it's a a bigger situation than child wets the bed
and mom kills her we want to give a big garage thank you and cheers to Joyce and Steven singular
for being so generous with their time make sure you subscribe on whatever platform you are listening to us on we
thank you so much for joining us here each and every week in the garage Colonel old spicy one do we have any
recommended reading for the beautiful listeners of course we do this week captain we're going to be recommending
Steven singler's book presumed guilty an investigation into the John B Ramsay case the media and the culture of
pornography and Stephen and Joyce pointed out something very fascinating to me here Captain there's multiple
formats for this book the book was originally released in 1999 but there is an updated version on Kindle the
2016 version which I highly recommend and the singulars recommend that you check out that version of their book
presumed guilty all about the John Benet Ramsay case and if you want to learn more about their other works you can go
to Stephens singular. and that is stepen s p cingular.com and until next week be good
be kind and don't [Music] litter whether you're making the same breakfast that you have every day or baking a cake
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Jonbenet: Presumed Guilty ////// 722 Part 1 of 1

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com This week we are joined in the Garage by Stephen and Joyce Singular. The Singular’s have been investigating the JonBenet Ramsey murder case since early 1997. Stephen Singular’s 1999 book Presumed Guilty: An Investigation of the JonBenet Ramsey Case, the Media, and the Culture of Pornography is an eye opening read. In which, Singular discusses some of the lesser known characters of the case, his findings, and magnifies the problems with the murder investigation. An updated Kindle version was released in 2016 with new information and some intriguing leads. For more information on Singular’s books such as his book with FBI retired agent John Douglas and a previous recommended reading selection from True Crime Garage - The Spiral Notebook: The Aurora Theater Shooter and the Epidemic of Mass Violence Committed by American Youth go to www.StephenSingular.com

For everything else True Crime go to www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

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Brief Summary

Steven and Joyce Singular discuss the complexities of the JonBenet Ramsey case and their investigative findings in "Presumed Guilty."

Key points

NCIS Sydney: A New Adventure. Follow a multinational task force as they tackle Naval crimes in Australia.
The Tragic Slaying of a Princess. A beloved princess is found slain, leading to a mystery that grips the town.
A New Perspective on the Ramsey Case. Veteran journalist Steven Singular offers insights into the complexities of the John Benet Ramsey case.
Child Pornography Arrest. A man was arrested for downloading child pornography at a restaurant.
John Ramsey's Reluctance. John Ramsey refused to let his daughter participate in a Las Vegas pageant.
Mysterious Poems. Anonymous poems hint at a dark underbelly of child abuse in Boulder.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Something was terribly wrong.

A dark turn in a fairy tale.

4:01WatchDec 13, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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