Mary Pinchot Meyer /// Part 2 /// 63 | Forensic Files

when it comes to Quality sleep Ashley has you covered with top mattress brands at winning prices and with special
financing options available you can snooze now and pay later plus your mattress purchase helps give the gift of
better sleep to children in need and US Special Operations forces visit your local Ashley store or shop online today
and make every snooze count financing is subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for d details Shopify is the
global Commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business with the internet's best converting
checkout 36% better on average compared to other leading Commerce platforms Shopify helps you turn browsers into
buyers in fact Shopify Powers 10% of all e-commerce in the US sign up for a $1 per month trial period at shopify.com
podcast free all lowercase shopify.com podcast free shopify.com podcast [Music] free
[Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me is a man that celebrated Thanksgiving down in the Turks and caos
with Brad Pit and his other celebrities friends the captain thank you thank you thank you it's good to be seen and it's
good to see [Music] you all right Captain this week we are drinking conspiracy theory by Southern
Star Brewing Company down in the great state of Texas garage grade four out of five bottle caps grab a can of this
wonderfully hoppy but big on drinkability true West Coast style IPA today ours was provided to us by Kristen
in Seattle Washington we also have Carol and philipsberg Kansas who says you guys rock and she's
been taking advantage of some of our sponsors special offers with our promo code saving a small fortune yeah promo
code garage garage how about that next we have the Fredericksburg zombie walk now I must apologize what I'm assuming
this is a h Halloween time thing but from what I do know is fredicksburg Zombie Walk is an annual event and in
2015 they collected about 3,000 lb of food to donate to the needy so if you live in the Virginia area and you're
looking for a really good cause to get involved with and something fun to do as well yeah just type in the
Fredericksburg zombie walk into the old Google machine and see how you can get involved next we have Kenny in Pensacola
Florida we also have Lauren in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania and last but not least Joanne and Mason Ohio it's
Joanne's 50th birthday on December 3rd so a big garage happy birthday to Joanne from
Nick the captain your sister Kathy and all of your friends at the Rav 4 and like always we like your J we want to
thank everybody who pitched in for this week's beer fund and if you want to buy us around for next week's show go to
True Crim garage.com and click on the Donate button and the t-shirts anybody that bought a t-shirt they have been
shipped now so you'll get those very soon please share you know once you get the T-shirt take a take a picture take a
selfie send it to us well I gave the shirts to the Pony Express a couple days ago so they are arriving by horseback
any day now enjoy and that's enough of the business that's right gather around grab a chair grab a beer and let's talk
some true [Music] crime this is true crime garage and this is the case of Mary pincho
[Music] [Applause] [Music] Meyer Washington October 13th Mrs Mary pincho Meer a Washington artist and
Society woman was shot and killed yesterday the police arrested Raymond Crump Jr a 25-year-old laborer and
charged him with murder Mrs Meyer 43 years old was shot twice in the left temple and in the
chest as she walked alone on the old Chesapeake and Ohio Canal Top PA in Georgetown she died at about 12:45
[Music] p.m. the toe path a pedestrian and bicycle route frequented by children and
fishermen parallels the pomac river Mrs Meyer had sometimes taken a walk there with Mrs John F Kennedy Mrs Meyers
friends said Mrs Kennedy who now lives in New York was described as a good friend of
Mrs Meyer Mrs Meyer's brother-in-law Benjamin C Bradley identified the body he is the Washington bureau chief of
Newsweek magazine Mrs Meyer was Mrs Bradley's sister Mr Bradley was a close friend of
President Kennedy the victim was divorced wife of cord Meyer Jr a writer and founder of
the United World Federalist now employed here by the Central Intelligence Agency the driver of an automobile tow
truck along Canal Road which runs parallel to the tow paath enabled the Metropolitan Police to make a quick
arrest of the suspect he was arraigned late yesterday before a United States commissioner and held
without bail on a charge of murder he denied any knowledge of the crime the tow truck operator Henry Wiggins 24 told
the police he had seen a woman apparently Mrs Meyer struggling with a man he heard screams and two shots and
then saw a man bending over the body he drove quickly a half mile to the nearest
[Music] telephone the suspect was apprehended an hour later wet beside the pomac near the
shooting scene he told the police he had fallen in the river while trying to retrieve his fishing
pole the police reported finding a fishing rod at his home Mrs Crump also identified a white
jacket found near the scene as her husband's the witness said the asent was wearing a white
jacket divers were searching the canal and River Bottom for the murder weapon the Myers were divorced 5 years ago
following the death of their son in an automobile accident acquaintances said this is true crime
garage and this is the case of Mary pincho Meer well here we are captain we're doing part two of the Mary pincho Meyer
murder case and why are we covering this because obviously L we cover True Crime
here in the garage oh really yeah and last week we started to cover this case because it was um the anniversary of the
assassination of JFK our 35th president yes and you know this time of year you're seeing everything on TV involving
the assassination and this case has always been tied to that particular case yeah because Mary Meyer and John F
Kennedy Had A Love Affair of some kind yeah they had an intimate relationship uh she had frequented the White House
often um and and and they were former neighbors as well correct so when one looks at the assassination of JFK one
should look at this case as well and that's what we're doing here now what was read in the trailer that is the
actual article the newspaper article that came out the day after Mary Meyer was shot uh in October of 1964 so that
kind of brings you up to speed as far as what took place that day and what the general Public's perception was of what
took place that day and where we're at now is we have Ray Crump Jr he's 25 years old he's been apprehended he was
caught at the scene MH so some would argue he's caught red-handed uh with his fly down um but anyway he's arrested and
he's arraigned awfully quickly later that same day and now we have a trial to contend with right right we have to
figure out is Ray Crump Jr guilty of the death of Mary pincho Meer now some things that take place very quickly
after he's arrested we have an attorney comes forward Ray Crump Jr is not of the
means to be able to afford a strong defense attorney right however a upand cominging and somewhat successful
defense attorney dovy rry she agrees to represent Ray Crump Jr for the cost of $1 and and one could assume right that
maybe that because it's such a high-profile case uh you know ex-wife of a CIA agent that and you know
connections to John F Kennedy that maybe this would boost her profile maybe well
that's exactly what she was doing she was going to stake her whole reputation in her future career on this case itself
and how she represents Ray Crump Jr MH um the other thing too is we have a bit of a uh civil rights or a racist or
whatever how I don't know what the right word is here but we have it a bit of of
of a typical conflict well let's just be clear and let's be blun right so this is
1964 and it's a white woman and the accused is a black male so um I believe this lawyer you know not only to boost
her profile but also who is going to defend this man adequately against this against technically a white system at
that time yeah she probably stepped forward hoping to make sure that Ray Crump Jr received a fair trial this is
not just a white woman this is a society woman and this is a u kind of a a low guy on the totem pool Ray Crump Junior a
young laborer who has no money and let's see what kind of trial he's going to get
well she quickly interviews Ray Crump Jr and after meeting with him after you know several times she decides that she
believes that he's innocent and she says in her biography that came out many years later that she would not represent
Ray Crump Jr unless she believed he was innocent M her her reasoning for this is
that when she met with him she saw what she considered to be a a small kind of Meek man that was very confused about a
situ this situation right right he didn't even really understand what had happened or why he was arrested for what
had happened yeah so his story I mean simply at the scene of the crime was that he's fishing and a pole goes in the
water and he goes after it and he falls into the water himself and then he's arrested M um no involvement no
connection to Mary Meyer herself right they didn't know one another and so she steps forward to represent him and she
again she says that he's terrified because this is in Washington DC if you commit first-degree murder it's a it's
punishable by Death yeah what's interesting here to me is you see this in the OJ trial as well is
like uh Johnny Cochran for example didn't want to be a part of the team until he actually spoke to OJ he had to
believe OJ or he didn't want to take the case and she's doing the same thing correct yeah she did the exact same
thing and it's going to be a a white judge a white prosecutor um and this is not looking to favor Ray Crump Jr now
one thing that happens in the get-go uh from the early part of this in February of
1965 um Ray Crump Jr is told that he is going to submit a hair sample to the prosecution okay and he refuses to do so
now this is when wait hold on so you just said that he was going to he he was no he was told he was going to okay okay
he was told he was going to he refuses to do so he he's brought into the police Captain's office in February of
1965 he refuses this hair sample okay uh what happens is I don't know the legality of this whole situation but it
sounds a little messed up to me because reportedly they held him down and took his hair from him uh thus they ended up
with a sample of his hair now this happened unbeknownst to Mrs rree who was representing him and she was quite
angered by this and she would try to get this removed from the actual trial now they are not able to do so his hair is
going to be a part of this trial and it's going to be looked at as evidence in this murder case now this case would
go to trial in the late summer of 1965 now one of the first witnesses that would be called would be coroner Dr rord
and what I how I want to do this Captain if you would play along with me is I'd like to go along through some of this
trial kind of talk about things as we go through it um but the thing to me here is you know how some trials are just
downright boring and it's just kind of you know dry and a couple of different people presenting the facts and it's
it's a real quick to uh decide whether this person's guilty or innocent and there's not much news out of it right
this trial to me I would have loved to have been sitting in the courtroom because this seemed like a trial that
had a little bit of drama to it and it kind of played out like an episode of Matlock in my opinion where you get to
see it see everything in action and you get to see two attorneys actually working against each other like they're
playing a game of chess right so the first witness that is called by the prosecution this is coroner Dr Rayford
now he the the I'll break down his testimony for you we don't have to go through the whole thing yeah but he's
basically saying that Mary pinch oh my was killed by two gunshots this was a 38 caliber gun okay uh two shots one to the
temple that left a slight halo around the entrance wound and one to the right shoulder blade this again left a slight
Halo did did you say the right Temple yeah okay so the right Temple right shoulder blade okay so the the bullet
that entered through her shoulder blade it peripher the lung and it severed the aorta so basically once that happened
she died almost instantly after the second bullet was fired okay now he's pressed a little bit because
they want to figure out what does this Halo that's near the entrance wound mean and the coroner would tell you that that
Halo is produced by powder Burns meaning that the shot was very close in distance
if not point blank on Mary's body right Mary had abrasions on her head knee and Ankle now this this would suggests that
Mary fought her attacker and fought pretty hard they were able to determine that she was drug about 25 ft this is
after she clung to a tree now one of the bits of evidence that the prosecution would say that they're going to show to
the jury is that they found blood stains on one of the trees well this would be the tree that she she clung to so she
was attacked she was shot once she clung to a tree she's drugged 25 ft shot again
dies instant instantly that's how the coroner sees this attack going down and just to remember that that this happened
during the day this happened like basically a lunch break yeah at 12 approximately 12:20 p.m. okay in the
very early afternoon so uh the other thing that the corner is able to decipher here is that the as salant was
able to overpower the victim the victim Mary she was 5' 6 in tall and she weighed about 127 lb the coroner would
also suggest that the whoever fired the gun could be ambidextrous that he could be a have the ability to
use both the right and left hand with the same amount of skill and that he was probably skilled with a
handgun yeah and you would assume that if the shots are coming from the the right side of Mary that the the suspect
would be left-handed or that he attacked her from behind and he was rightand yeah
yeah true well true I mean if you're if you're behind the victim and you're right-handed then you can shoot the
right Temple but is the wound coming from the front of Mary or from the back of Mary the the shot that went through
her shoulder blade yeah that would have been in the back okay so it would be more likely that the victim or the
suspect would be right-handed yep CU then they shoot yeah okay yeah so the the next witness called for the
prosecution this is supposed to be one of the star Witnesses for the prosecution there was going to be two of
them and the first one was Henry Wiggins now you'll remember from what we said in
the first episode this is the tow truck driver yeah 24 yeah and so he testifies that he was sent by Joe Cameron this is
his boss to pick up Bill Branch that's his partner and respond to a stalled vehicle at about 12:20 p.m. and the two
arrived arrived at the vehicle at that time when the two arrived they saw the vehicle this is a rambler okay uh and
Wiggins immediately heard screams right after they arrived so this is within seconds we we have a we're able to put
together an easy timeline on her attack because he's saying within seconds of arriving at 12:20 p.m. he hears
screaming and this alerts him and he decides to run across the street before he could get to the wall is when he
hears the first shot this is coming from the Canal area so he proceeds then a few
seconds later he says a few seconds later he hears another shot now his partner Bill Branch would later
testify that it was more like 10 seconds or 15 seconds between shots mhm Wiggins
sees the man he sees a man just seconds after he hears the second shot he says he's in Clear Sight of the man and he's
less than 130 feet away Wiggins Ducks down a little more than the football field exactly because
you know he's he's hearing these shots he's trying to react feet not yards I'm sorry yeah less than 130t yeah he Ducks
down behind the wall he's reacting and then he gets back up again and he looks and he sees a man put something in his
jacket pocket this item was in the man's right hand he could not say for certain
if this item was a gun or not he basically after being cross-examined says that he described the item item as
a dark hand object something he was holding with his hand the man turns around and walks away but this would go
with our idea that right-handed you're exactly right so he walks away down and over the hill uh the man was wearing a
cap this is one of those caps where you can button the brim to the to the to the
yeah I call it like a cab driver hat he was wearing dark pants dark shoes and a light or tan jacket uh and he would
state that the jacket was zipped up now so he says light or tan yeah okay and he
saw the man standing over the body for approximately a minute uh and says he did did not go get a good look at the
man's face Wiggins later that day would identify Ray Crump Jr as this man and he
would identify crump's clothing that was submitted to the court as the clothing that he had seen the man standing over
the body as wearing but that was a white jacket correct right I mean he says he says light or tan jacket right but
there's a big difference between white and tan right be a light tan jacket yeah I don't know
okay Bill Branch now remember he's Henry Wiggins the other tow tri truck driver that's his partner he would testify that
he he was over by the wall he didn't see the man but after Wiggins had left to retrieve the police officers that he had
stood by the wall and kind of watched over the scene mhm well there's a problem with this testimony okay because
at the crime scene when he's interviewed by the police he says when he heard the
shot he was afraid he he was working on the Nash Rambler that was stalled mhm and when he heard the shot he decided to
get in the vehicle and just kind of hide and hunker down inside the vehicle yeah
fight or flight and he he took off on a flight yeah and we all know you cannot tell the police in their report one
thing and then testify to something later in court you know he well I mean you can but you can but is it goes
against it makes you uncredible and think about this though here for a second so he's probably a bit of a bit
ashamed that he was just afraid and decided not to go over to the wall right and no no one knows how they're going to
act in that situation until they're in that actual situation well this is where doy Round Tree the defense attorney
would make her first strike against the prosecution in their story okay okay so she's immediately pointing out that
regardless of how long it took police to arrive and most people estimate that it
was between 4 to 6 minutes after Mary pincho Meer was shot so very quick police response time here right mhm
she's stating that let's be clear there was nobody monitoring the crime scene before the police arrive you know there
there wasn't this bill Branch watching over the crime scene anything could have been going on down there right with
without any eyewitnesses now what is the prosecution's general plan just to stick
with what he you know the change of story yes maybe um you know maybe you feel inferior as a man I guess cuz you
took off running and and HD in your car but also what are the cops telling you to say right I mean the cops are
going to be working with a prosecution to get a conviction and you got a guy at the scene you know and he's a black man
so you know case closed right well and what's the prosecution story The prosecution story is this okay that Mary
pincho Meer was attacked um her their first thought was that they would point out that she was um maybe being robbed
that somebody tried to rob her and that that had gone wrong but quickly into this they were able to point out that
she would not be one that you would suspect of being robbed because she didn't she didn't carry a wallet now I
know that an as salent might not know that um but she doesn't have a purse with her and she's not wearing any
jewelry so why are you robbing this woman now they would later say that it was probably a the result her death was
a result of a sexual assault attempt on rape on Mary who ended up putting up too
much of a fight that Ray Crump Jr shot her because of this fight because it got out of hand and that she might be able
to identify him right and that he fled the area now why is Ray Crump guilty of this crime well it's obvious to the
people of the jury right this is a prosecution speaking because the police responded so quickly and there are steps
and there are things that you need to you know there are exits and entrances natural exits and entrances to this Toe
Path Road into this area and the police were able to block off all four of those within four minutes of
the attack so one would think that the attacker was most likely trapped in that area and therefore would be apprehended
by the police looking for him a short while later which Ray Crump Jr in fact Ray was yeah so let's think about their
attack their their plan the prosecution's plan for a second okay and let's bring in the next witness the next
witness was police officer John Warner he apprehended Ray Crump Jr at 1:15 p.m. he was talking to Ray Crump for about 10
minutes before he decided to arrest him now this took place about onet of a mile
east of the murder scene now when he does testify when he came across Crump Crump was not running he did not look
like he was fleeing the area he was just walking uh and when he when he approached Crump he asked him for
identification he presented himself as a police officer Crump did not seem to be
startled other than the fact that he was soaking wet right and he quickly tells him I'm Ray Crump Jr and he shows him
identification he's asked why he's there well I I'm I'm here cuz I was fishing well why are you wet because just like
the captain said the fishing pole fell into the water he went after it well that story doesn't make a whole lot of
sense because Warner officer Warner offers to go with Crump to the area to help him retrieve his fishing gear right
Crump says well it's it's in the water we're not going to be able to retrieve it then he changes his story Crump says
well I was I was actually drinking and fishing and have fallen asleep and and when some point I stumbled into the
water MH now keep in mind we said that Ray Crump Jr is soing Right does he smell of alcohol I mean is there any
like stench to him Warner didn't seem to uh he didn't seem to elaborate on that at all I mean how drunk do you have to
be to fall into the river I don't know how drunk well I think you have to be pretty drunk but I think his story is
that he was drinking have you ever wait have you ever fell into a river uh not a
river but I have a pond you why you're drinking you fell actually similar story to Ray Crump Junior's I was drinking I
was drinking and fell asleep near the pond and then got attacked by some of my friends and and woke up startled and
fell into the pond those are some nice friends they're they're they're no longer
friends but sorry about that Crump JR says that he he had fallen asleep fell into the water okay now when he's found
by Officer Warner he's not wearing a cap and he's not wearing a jacket so shortly
after he's apprehended the police start looking for a jacket and they start looking for the the the Hat because
right the that the eyewitness saw they need to uh find the guy that was described to them as described to them M
and the next witness is well let's uh take a quick pause get grab a beer take a quick beer break this show is
sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays maybe you struggle with seasonal Blues this time
of year can be a lot and it's natural to feel some sadness or even anxiety about
it but adding something new and positive to your life can counteract some of those feelings therapy can be a bright
spot something to look forward to to make you feel grounded and to give you the tools to manage everything going on
if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed to be convenient
flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist
and switch therapist at any time for no additional charge find your bright spot this season with betterhelp visit
betterhelp.com garage today to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp hp.com
garage Shopify is the global Commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business with the
internet's best converting checkout 36% better on average compared to other leading Commerce platforms Shopify helps
you turn browsers into buyers in fact Shopify Powers 10% of all e-commerce in the US sign up for a $1 perm month trial
period at shopify.com podcast free all lowercase shopify.com podcast free shopify.com podcast
free and we're back from the beer break yeah Captain I want to talk about real quickly the description that is given of
the suspected as salent in Mary Pino's murder because this will come up time and time again throughout the trial okay
so the description that is given by the first what is quote unquote the star witness Henry Wiggins is that he had
seen a man that was approximately 5 foot to five I'm sorry 5' 8 to 5' 10 in tall
about 180 PBS African-American and in his 40s and we had already described the clothes that he saw the man wearing now
why is this important well Ray Crump Jr yes he vaguely fits this description right I mean he's an
African-American man but outside of that uh on his driver's license He's listed as 5 foot 3 in 5' 3 and a half Ines
sorry 130 lbs and he's 25 years old so he's quite a bit younger than the man in his 40s and he's quite a bit shorter and
lighter than the man that was described right way shorter exactly now he is wearing somewhat the same clothes you
know when officer Warner confronts Ray Crump junor and when he apprehends him he is wearing the dark trousers the dark
shoes that were described but he does not have this light color jacket on and he does not have a
hat now the police were very quickly able to find the jacket within minutes of them apprehending Ray Crump Jr they
go looking for this jacket and this jacket's found about 45 minutes after they apprehend him now they wouldn't
find the Hat until the following day throughout this time right but one could assume that if if Ry um was the murderer
that he disposed of these items correct and Ray Crump this is what he's he looks
like when he's apprehended he is soaking wet the officer notes that his fly is down uh his pants pocket was torn and
the he had a cut on his right hand and a small Cut Above his eye now this would lead the police to believe that this
these were injuries sustained during the uh attack on Mary pincho Meer right cuz
she fought back his his excuse for these injuries are that he fell into the water
and he he got hurt on the Rocks the next witness that is called by the prosecution this is Joseph rans rans
andol sorry for the name there Joseph I probably butchered that but who is he he
works for the National Park Service and why is he there he's there to discuss the layout of the toe path and why is
this important because again the prosecution said that they were able to to block off all those entrances and
exits and they believe that whoever committed this murder would have been trapped and would have been apprehended
very quickly as was Ray Crump Jr now so they're looking at this map they put like this huge huge map on the
wall right across from where all the jury members are sitting so they could see it while they're going through the
descriptions here M now the this Joseph that worked for the National Park Service he's asked you know how many
exits are on the Toe Path Road on the toath between keybridge and chainbridge and he states that there are four and
within four minutes that the police were called they had blocked off all four of
these thus trapping the as salent inside mhm now he points out these four exit as
one there steps to Water Street at keybridge two there's an underpass at Foundry Branch three there's an
underpass at Fletcher's boat house and four there are more steps at the chainbridge now through out the trial
they will interview several of the officers that were blocking off these exits and two of the officers that were
supposed to be blocking off the underpass at Fletcher's boat house they state that after about 5 minutes they
got tired of blocking off their spot right okay so they well everybody wants to catch the killer right I I think
that's why some people go into law enforcement they they want to be the hero you know and so after about 5
minutes they get a little tired of waiting and blocking their spot they decide that they are going to each take
a route that would lead them near the scene of the murder so they're taking separate routes now during the course of
one of these routes one of the officers he sees a head head Peak out of the woods now he doesn't go full charge
right into the woods looking for this man because he believes that this is probably the murder suspect why the only
thing he could identify from seeing the head of this person was that it was ahead of an African-American male now he
sees this person approximately 150 ft away from him okay he decides to wait there and he's waiting for backup before
he's going to go apprehend this man backup never comes so after some time passes they figure out that they're
they're NE never able to locate this man now a key thing in the trial that will come out here is that this Officer says
that he saw this man approximately at45 p.m. well this is where we're going to see the great attorney doy rry make her
second strike against the pro prosecutions theory so on cross-examination of this man of Joseph
from the National Park Service she's going through the map with him now she did the leg work she would go down to
the top path day after day after day and scour the scene to see what what was going on and what it looked like and
walk the ground herself I don't think the prosecution did this I think that they got they got caught without knowing
what was going on here right yeah where they were cocky and assumed it's 1965 we
got a Blackman you know we're going to we're going to charge him he's going to be found guilty easily I think they may
have thought it was going to be an easy win well they didn't realize that they're going to be dealing with doy rry
so she's going to make her second strike here and what is this through cross-examination of this man she points
out that there is a fifth exit that Joseph didn't know about um and this points out something here which is weird
because he's the expert on this yeah and I don't think he actually knew the area
I think he was just somebody that worked for the national uh Park service and they they just call him in they call him
in as an expert witness right quote unquote what the jury's able to figure out is this guy's not an expert witness
this is just a guy that that works for the parks department and he is observing a map that anybody could look at right
so there's a fifth exit and the problem with this is well not only is there an exit that they didn't know about but it
wasn't blocked by anybody this wasn't this wasn't being blocked off by officers so so so we have uh one officer
that saw a different black um mail well and then we have another exit Al together that's not blocked yeah
so there's a couple problems here for the prosecution because the prosecution would come out and say that that black
male that peaked his head out of the woods well that was Ray Crump Jr that that happened you know we saw the
officers saw him and he was apprehended later he must been hiding behind a very small tree but we got to look at
eyewitness testimony right so this Officer says that he saw the man approximately at 1:45 p.m. well Ray
Crump Jr it was already been right he was already arrested he was already arrested at 1:15 p.m. so it could not
have been Ray Crump Jr unless he got the time wrong and the other thing through testimony of the uh the gentleman from
the National Park Service that they are able to determine that doy rry points out to the jury is that not only are
there five exits and not four but there are also plenty of areas where somebody a person on foot could just leave with
without having used the steps or anything of that nature right so she's picked apart the prosecution Theory
pretty good right here in my opinion she's pointed out that a all the areas were not blocked off that whoever killed
Mary pincho Meer could have got away right two she's pointing out that there not only you know there the only person
seen near the body was this African American male that vaguely matches the description of Ray Crump Jr but she's
already EST established that he was clearly not the only African-American male that was down near the toe path
that day that day and at that time right so this is going to start presenting a whole bunch of problems for the
prosecution now let's keep in mind too that the police had searched for days and days looking for the murder weapon
now they did go into the water looking for this the murder weapon was never found they never located the gun that
that that shot these 38 bullets right so you could one assume that it got lost in the water mhm if if
Ry actually fell into the water or he disposed of the gun in the water making it a lot harder to find or you could
also assume that if if Ry is innocent that the the real killer left the park with the gun exactly and that's what she
would point out to the jury so now the prosecution they're going to bring in their second star
Witness this is Lieutenant Mitchell now he is this is where the prosecution really
liked their their attack okay their first eyewitness was a black man who was pointing out another black man and so
they thought that that would ring some truth you know that it's not just a bunch of white people accusing this
African-American man of committing the crime now this is where they thought they were going to hit the Home Run and
this is why they called Lieutenant Mitchell last because this is a former military man right he's he's a white guy
and he's of some standing in in the area so they believe that you know this is somebody that the jury as well as the
general P public would find truthful and trustworthy so he says that he would go
jogging often around that time almost daily yeah and on his jog he passed what he identified as Mary pincho Meer this
would be shortly before she was attacked he said that about 200 yard after he passed Mary pincho meire that he jogged
past an African-American man wearing a light tan jacket dark trousers dark plaid cap with a
brim and the man was not carrying any fishing equipment uh he also stated that he saw you know who else did you see
that day he says well I saw a young white couple and I saw another jogger who was wearing Bermuda Bermuda shorts
okay uh neither we need to point out something here when they're looking for the Killer
mhm okay Mitchell comes to the police the day after after they had already arrested Ray Crump Jr and says this is
the man that I saw walking Jo you know he's right near the victim now these other people that he
states that he passed on his jog that day these people never come forward they're never identified and they never
come forward as eyewitnesses right so he we got to point out something and we'll
come back to this later after the trial but remind me about this this Lieutenant
Mitchell okay now Lieutenant Mitchell would state that he gave the same description the day after the day after
Ray Crump Jr was arrested that was given by Wiggins now on on trial yeah but Wiggins you know his eyewitness account
is a little off of what Ry actually looks like MH and at trial um this Lieutenant Mitchell is going to be very
vague about his description you know when he's asked to give the height and the weight of the man he says that he
looked to be about my size well Lieutenant Mitchell was approximately 5 fo8 and about 175 to 180 pounds this
again making him much bigger than Ray Crump Jr however he's never willing he's pressed by doy rry but he never really
fully admits that he believed the man to be um exactly that size and weight he just keeps saying someone about my
size again I'm going to go back to the description of of Ray Crump Jr or what was given of the man seeing standing
over the body now again this is some you're you're right you're given the eyewitness account of the suspect this
is somebody that was described as an African-American male stocky about 180 lbs and between the heights of 5' 8 in
and 5' 10 in and in his 40s okay so when officer Warner arrested Ray Crump Jr he
was presented with identification this would have shown him that he didn't Ray Crump Jr didn't fully match the
description of the man that they were looking for this presents a problem because
there was no there was no gray area about this they had the testimony of 12 officers that were investigating the
crime that day that all heard the description that went out over the radio of whom they were to be looking for
right and 10 of them state that we were looking for an African-American man stocky 5' 8 in in his 40s two of the
officers give a different description they say we were looking for an African-American man 5' 10 in 180 lbs
and in his 40s but what you can figure out there is that this is not the description of Ray Crump Jr right his
driver's license states that he's 5' 32 in 130b now on the date that he was arrested the police booking they list
him at is 5' 52 in and 145 lb so he's slightly taller slightly heavier than what his driver's license States now
what it does not state in the in the booking report was Ray Crump Jr was known to have wore
lifts that would make him look taller right so I mean they could have measured him there and he had the lifts on so he
would be 55 it was you're exactly right he was it was unclear at the time of the
trial whether whether he was arrested wearing these lifts or not so he could have been taller the day he was arrested
the other thing was when given his weight 14 arrested the day of right so he's arrested the day of so we can
assume he had the lifters on during the attack no we we can assume that but what
I'm saying is it was brought up in trial and the police were unable to give a full report as to the shoes that he was
wearing that day if he was wearing the lifts or not they they couldn't determine that that was there was no
record of that they just took his height and marked it down and moved on but they
marked it down as 55 soed they're either lying or he's wearing the lifts and he was actually 55 exactly and the other
thing is with given his weight you know I'm assuming that they're not lying is he heavier because he's wearing wet
clothes I mean I know that wouldn't add that wouldn't add 15 pounds to you but it might add a little bit of you know I
think there's some things on your driver's license that you know they say as long as you're
within 50 pounds or whatever that you don't have to change your amount so it might just be one of those scenes he's
25 years old U maybe he's a little heavier and and he never changed that on his license so we can all agree though
that doy rry poked quite a bit of holes in the prosecution's theory of what took
place that day right she's feeling pretty good about her case and she decides that she only calls three
eyewitnesses and those eyewitnesses are all people that are just going to testify toward the character of Ray
Crump Jr and the other thing here though is that all three of them one of them being his wife all three of them had
known Ray Crump JR this is their testimony for 15 years or more and at no point had any of them ever known Ray
Crump Jr to own a gun or to even mention that he owns a gun so we have this guy that is considered not to be a gun owner
and we have the coroner saying that not only is this person ambidextrous but he's probably skilled with a handgun so
we have a guy that might not have even owned a gun let alone have any skill with
one yeah but one I don't think it it's necessary that he's capable of using his left hand or his right hand and also
skilled with a gun able to hold a gun up to a body and pull a trigger that's he's
not sharp shooting here mm right he's shooting uh Somebody by basically holding the gun to him boom pull the
trigger and the other thing that doy rry would point out to the jury was that the
coroner specifically said that he believed that the as salent was able to overpower the victim now she points out
that keep in mind you know yeah it it would have been man versus woman however Ray Crump Jr is shorter than the victim
and weighs only a pound or two more than the victim so easily overpowered Ray Crump Jr might have been
able to do that but is it like overly believable no there's some questions there well I mean but she did put up a
fight mhm now on the final day after she calls the character Witnesses she decides this she's going into court with
the assumption that she is going to call Ray Crump Jr to the stand and she believes hard and fast that this is what
she's going to do because his story will further back up uh what he was doing there that day now
what was her plan he had told her a story that he had not told anybody else that he was down there at the by the
water drinking with a married woman and he being a married man that this was something that they had done more than
one occasion that they would go down there and they would drink together and have a little little kiss face lot right
there's a lot of male [ __ ] in this story um however this woman never came forward she she did
um write a letter or she wrote some kind of uh testimony that was given to doy rry but she want to State her name no
because she was married right right and uh this was not something that could be presented in court now doy rry on her
way into court that day she you had to take an elevator to get up to the floor where they were holding Court well and
also if he's with this married woman if that's a true story then the police's accusations that this was a sexual
attack because it didn't make a lot of sense as far as a robbery goes you see what I'm saying so if he's down there uh
fornicating with a married woman then why would he have a sexual assault on this other lady exactly and on the final
day of trial doy round tree is going into the courthouse and she's going to have to take the elevator up to the
floor that's holding trial that day and the elevator operator throws her a little curveball she says you know I
just I just took the prosecution team up to the floor now the whole time they were in the elevator they were going on
and on about how happy they were that Ray Crump Jr was going to take the stand and they could not wait to pick him
apart they had had this all planned out they were going to spend the whole afternoon picking apart his testimony I
don't know if that's the elevator operator's job I don't know but uh have you ever been in in an elevator where
there's an actual operator yeah that's pretty interesting it's very old school um but anyway so she gets tidbit from
the elevator operator and she decides that you know what if there if these good old boys are so happy about picking
apart his testimony I'm not even going to bother calling him to the stand right why take the risk if you feel like
you're ahead you have more to lose than gain mhm um long story short Captain Ray
Crump Jr is acquitted of the murder of Mary pincho Meyer all right so what is the aftermath of this though it's an
unsolved murder it's an unsolved murder to this date the murder took place in the 6 in ' 64 the trial was in ' 65 we
here we are all these years later with no answers now there have been plenty of people that have stated that while this
should still be an open case that technically if you do some digging it is an open case however after the trial it
was never investigated anymore they spent no more time on investigating this murder after the trial why because the
police Poli Chief at the time believed that the prosecutor had botched the trial that did not do a good job on the
trial and furthermore believe that Ray Crump Jr killed Mary pincho meire and the only
reason why he got out of it was because of of racial stuff that the jury was primarily African-American there were
eight African African-American people on the jury of 12 and so you have a lot of
people that point out well this can't be a conspiracy because Ray Crump Jr did it
he just happened to get off because he had eight people um of the same race that helped him get off and furthermore
doy Roundtree she was a a minister at an all black um congregation and they believed that it was kind of like like
you had said to me earlier Johnny Cochran where she was able to talk in a way and present her story in a way and
that that some of the white police officers and law enforcement at the time believed that you know because of her
church background and because of the way that she said things and would convey things to the jury that those eight
African-American jurors would have believed anything that she said well right the the idea of the lawyer is to
tell a better story which lawyer tells the better story um but I mean he has some things going against him and some
things that went for him in this case it's very hard to know uh I mean I think that probably played a part I mean how
many um africanamerican males are getting a fair trial in 64 you know not many and this was taking
place in the north right you know I I don't you know I imagine that varies uh I would imagine it would be less likely
to get a fair trial in the South but this was taking place in the north there was you know unfortunately there's still
racism today everybody knows that we can pretend that it's not going on but there's racism today could you imagine
the racism in you imagine if somebody just walks through their life going you know I'm just going to prend that this
[ __ ] doesn't happen I'm just going to say that we're not racist no uh yeah what's interesting here though is you
know Mary Meyer is you know a woman ahead of her time and in a lot of uh facets of her life right oh yeah very
many and and so is is ry's lawyer she's she's a woman ahead of her time she's an
African-American woman right she's a she's also a preacher and and she's a lawyer I mean in 6 5 and then not only
that but she takes I mean I wonder where her career went after this she had a very successful career I don't know if
she went on to um be a part of any other famous cases but I believe she she had a
biography that came out sometime in the 90s so that's why so much of this stuff is U you know able to be reported easily
you know you have the trial transcripts you have her biography plus there were all these other biographies of people
near Mary pincho that came out later in life because she was a society woman she was surrounded
by successful people well and like we said the the unsent love letter from JFK sold for almost
$90,000 you know this year so I mean uh anything that's connected with uh John F
Kennedy has been very sought after in the public eye now there were several people involved in this trial one being
the prosecutor um stating that if you look at Ray Crump Jr's life after the trial that that points out
that he did this murder okay because uh he would go on to have a very lengthy police record uh which involved um
things like arson uh and assaults I think he had two arson on there I think he burnt down his own house at one point
um insurance fraud and they would point out that hey by the way next week I'm burning down the garage I think Ray
Trump Jr was arrested like 22 times after this uh trial took place and and he had actually moved out of state too
so some of those weren't him being targeted by anybody um sorry about that I just hit my head um but they would
point out that he was in fact a violent man now in doy round tre's biography she
states that she she has a good litness test for these type of things right she would interview a lot of people and have
to determine whether they're guilty or innocent so I I'm going to go with her on this and and she states that she
believes that that 9 months in jail that that Crump sat there waiting for his trial had changed him because she saw a
man that would had been attacked multiple times while he was in jail she believed he might even have been raped
at one point and she saw a very different man walk out of the trial doors that day than the man that walked
into him at the start and she thinks that that changed him and obviously he had a a drinking he had had a small
drinking problem before he went on trial before Mary Pino's murder and she saw that his alcoholism became very acute
afterwards and and this would lead to all these problems that he had with the law well yeah I mean but you also have
you know you're living in this world thinking that you're going to get a fair shake and and I'm sure
um I'm sure anybody of decent intelligence back in' 63 64 65 this time period uh African-American male knows
that some of the some of society's cards are stacked against you already mhm and
so but but with those cards being stacked against you other than that you're hoping you get a fair Shake right
if you do the right thing then then good things happen to you and and but I mean
one whatever if if his story is true um and he was actually with a married woman
then you weren't doing the right thing at the time and but then this happened and then this kind of sets this spiral
and it changes your mindset well this is how the world works and it doesn't matter if I did it or not all these
people think I'm guilty of it that'd be a really tough thing to defend yourself on well and you hinted on something
there that I've always said for many many years you know and in regards to Ray Crump Jr he was not just a man in
the wrong place at the wrong time no this was a man willingly putting himself in a bad situation he went down there
that day to do something he shouldn't be doing and I've always said for years if
you put yourself in a bad situation or you put yourself around bad people enough bad things are going to happen to
you I'm not saying he deserved what happened to him that day if he was in fact innocent however you know that's
the moral of the story here now you also hinted on something earlier that I I appreciate because when when I first
started looking at this case and the more I got to know about Mary pinch Oher the more I got to admire her I I think
she was an incredible woman that has a bigger story that's that's more than just possibly having an affair with the
late president I think that she was a extremely interesting woman I think that she fit into High Society very good but
she also had this inner hippie inside of her which was cool and the other thing though you pressed on was well you can
be a part of high society but understand that the idea is that you have to have an open mind and if you have an open
mind about issues you're more likely to solve the problems right and she fit into both of those categories the other
thing here too is like you said about doy Round Tree yeah this was an amazing woman I mean I could only imagine if if
if she she poked holes in this prosecutions Theory like he wouldn't believe I mean she just tore apart their
case in my opinion and I always looked at this yeah but I I look some of it is just I think a shitty prosecution I mean
for everything that you know for when they go well this eyewitness testimony is off
he's only five three well if he's lift wearing lifters then therefore their their eyewitness testimony is not that
far off right but we both agreed that the prosecution came into this trial and they thought they probably had an easy
case this is a a poor or a lower middle class black man accused of killing a well-to-do white woman and it happened
in broad daylight this is an easy case but doy rry could have walked in the same with the same thought right she
could have walked in and thought well this is an easy case for me to lose this is an africanamerican male charged with
killing a white woman and I'm just going to go in here and make sure that he gets
a fair Shake I'm not going to really work this thing real hard I think she worked this case really hard well but in
all fairness she took the case so I mean you're not going to take a case to lay down she took a case to win it no you're
and you're exactly right but I think when she saw what was uh you know the adversity in front of her I think that
she didn't back down and she never wavered and that she continued on and she got the I think it's the right
verdict now I can't say from personal opinion whether I think Ray Crump Jr is guilty or innocent because I think there
are things pointing to his guilt and things pointing to his innocence however had I been on the jury back in 1965 and
witnessed the trial as I understand it to be I would have give a a verdict of innocent there right right I I believe I
would have too um but I don't know I you know when I when I cuz I put this one on the list uh
I don't put a lot of cases on the on our our schedule um and I did so because I'm
so fascinated with the assassination of John F Kennedy and when this is always reported so I guess we can get into the
uh conspiracy side of things for just a little bit right well I was going to ask
you do we have enough time to discuss uh any of the conspiracies yeah yeah I mean
it's early in the day I got a little bit of time for you yeah so well I mean here's the thing is I I wanted there to
be a conspiracy I wanted there to be this bigger thing this bigger reason um regarding Mary Pino's murder not JFK's
right right right but look I will just come out and say it I I do not think uh Lee Harvey oswal was the lone gunman
well before you get into that let's talk about Mary okay no no but this is setting it
up you got to start there so what was happening before JFK you know yeah there's this affair and all this stuff
great who cares in my eyes I don't care you know he was a [ __ ] that doesn't I think he was a good
president but so Mary has ties with Timothy ly which is the big LSD guy and he was a professor at Harvard doing
studies on LSD you know the truth serum but it's really more about expanding and
opening the mind that truth serum was a joke well no but people actually used it
as truth term in experiments I think right right so she had uh basically she had a relationship with Timothy ly and
she was getting LSD from Timothy ly and she was administering these turn on events with
um you know Washington Elites mhm and she was trying to get uh the why lives of these Elites to get turned on to open
their minds therefore influencing their men and she even stated to Timothy ly multiple times if you can get these guys
wives and these guys Mistresses to get turned on and open up to new ideas that it could really
influence the the whole world um and if you ever want to look up something pretty interesting it's uh
Timothy ly wrote about this and his relationship with um Mary Meyer no not a sexual
relationship just a relationship so they would go back and forth when John F Kennedy was assassinated she
called Timothy ly she then stated to him they killed him because he knew too much
yeah I believe his exact quote is that she said they couldn't control him anymore he was changing too fast they've
covered everything up right and really to me a a tell sign of there's some big tells I think that
point to the idea that it was this uh a couet if you want to call it is this notion that Kennedy was going to pull
out of the war and how who does that affect monetarily and that the government didn't want to do that so
therefore we're going to assassinate him and we're going to take back power he wasn't going to listen to the people
because he got turned on you know as far as you know opened up his mind to the possibility hey War might not be the
answer okay so yeah maybe he knows too much maybe he's changing maybe he they can't control him anymore so they
assassinated him that's what she's kind of saying towards Timothy ly and I think
she was a little scared you know because she was one of the associates that were
kind of helping him open up his mind and so that happens that happens in ' 63 now when you hear about Mary Meyer all
the time you hear okay the assassination happened and then Mary knew so much that
they killed her but that's not the truth because what happened was it was a year
later yeah she was killed about 11 months after uh JFK was assassinated yeah and you have the warant commission
come out with their report just weeks before she's killed and this to me uh is if you want to go down the conspiracy
rabbit hole with this case this would be the tell sign because the Warren Commission come out with their reports
their findings um Lee Harvey oswal is The Lone Gunman and she is pretty vocal and pretty public that she does not
agree with their findings well one rumor that was going around as well was that she had actually purchased the paperback
version of the Warren commission's report and that she was making notations as she was reading it and highlighting
things and probably putting together a case that they were wrong that their findings were not exact um the cool
thing about Mary pincho Meer though again she was a society woman so the people that surround her were very
successful so there's so many document if you want to dive into this thing there's so many biographies that came
out years after she was killed of people close to her that talk about things going on in her life that led up to her
death now some of these can be considered here say um but you know you have like her
brother-in-law Mr Bradley he was a very successful guy he was in charge of the Washington Post I believe later in his
life right and um you know he has a biography and as well as plenty of other people in this case now let's talk about
real quick why you know you're talking about Mary pincho Meer was it a conspiracy well let's pretend we all
agree Ray Crump Jr we believe the jury we we believe doy rree and he is actually innocent of this crime mhm so
where are some problems with who actually killed Mary pincho Meer and and why and you had mentioned her not
agreeing with the waren report right okay and the argument there is that okay as far as the Sass assassination is
concerned how many of those Witnesses have mysterious deaths afterwards and so that's kind of where they're drawing is
anybody that's connected anybody that has um different viewpoints anybody has a voice anybody that can that could
change public opinion there's a lot of people that end up dead and then that's they're they're
lumping her in with that yeah I believe there were like 25 to 30 people on that list and she would have been like 15th
or 16th on the list now not all of them were murders some of them were suicides but uh right there was a lot of
mysterious it's enough to talk about that's for sure well the other weird thing too is that there was a I think a
Breakin to her house um they were looking for her diary and there was this whole thing that after her death um
trying to uh that people of higher power was trying to get her diary yeah she had
told some of her friends and I believe it was her uh uh sister that she believed that people were following her
and that she that they were breaking into her home and possibly wiretapping her phone um she even stay at one time
when she was coming home that she saw somebody leaving her her home right and um and and if a lady's making these
claims I don't think she's you know paranoid and just making this stuff up well let's talk about this diary real
quick because there are a whole bunch of stories about this diary I wanted to include it and give a very factual
opinion of this diary the problem was when I looked at it Through The Eyes of four different people reporting on this
diary di they all had different stories and so I couldn't come up with what was the truth but the general story is this
that within 24 hours of her murder that her friends and her loved ones conspired
that they wanted to go to her home and to her studio and they wanted to collect her personal things that being a diary
that they suspected she kept her letters and her personal papers now when they went to this is Ben Bradley he's and
part of this could be like I like I said she's she's this this is a tough cookie
I mean you know she was having an affair with the president you know at one point
and and she talked to you know like I said she talked to uh to Timothy ly about the different mistresses of people
of power in Washington maybe she was having other Affairs maybe it was just to get this diary to protect her
reputation because you know a lady that is single and maybe having uh affairs with married men uh puts a a damper puts
a kind of black cloud over all the positive stuff she was doing especially during that time period And so there
there's definitely motive in that scenario to we want to collect this stuff uh so so we can kind of protect
her name and her reputation well they're saving face right they're they're protecting her name protecting her
family because they believe she was writing down everything she did and and potentially protecting the Kennedy name
as well they didn't want these things to get out now her brother-in-law Ben Bradley his story he says that he was
part of this group that went to her home to get these items now when there he says when he gets there there's a
gentleman his name is James Angleton he's a CIA agent and he is he was either trying to pick the lock to her home or
he was already in the home when they got there that part of the story is a little
unclear while they were there they found a diary and according to Bradley Angleton said you know how we
handle these things in the CIA I can take this back to headquarters and I'll burn it I'll dispose of it properly and
nobody will ever know what was in this diary well after the the group of friends talk about they decide that
that's probably the best thing to do why is this normal though is it just normal
because she was married to a CIA agent I think so and I think it's where they live I mean living in the DC area being
involved in all of those groups right but if it was just some other white woman even of some power would the CIA
be there going through her diary um you know it's unclear while why Angleton was
there but he is a man of the CIA he could have said I'm investigating this her murder you know this is within 24
hours of the death you know so there there's not been somebody convicted of this crime they could have fallen for
that well they didn't do a good job of con you know investigating and convicting anybody no but you need to
keep in mind something here too they were friends with James Angleton so it wasn't like a stranger show showed up
and was trying to break into the I wanted to see where the how does this make logical no this was this was a man
that they knew and they knew that cord Meyer known him and so this was a man that they they trusted now where the
problem comes about is there's multip again multiple stories with with this diary the one being that seems to be the
most likely that several people back up is that they agreed to give the diary to
James Angleton and he said he was going to burn it at the CIA at at his office right right after he read it slowly now
um some other stories about the diary uh one of them being that one of the friendss a female friend of hers states
that she took the diary and took it home and disposed of it um another person states that they saw James Angleton in
possession of this same diary 10 to 15 years later after he said that he had destroyed it why was he holding on to it
uh and there's also some other reports that state that they found a diary that seemed to contain no information about
her personal life at all regarding Kennedy or drugs or anything of that nature and that they agreed that it was
of nothing of importance and they decided to dispose of it however there are people that will point out that
there some of these stories say that the diary was found in her home and Other Stories say that the diary was found in
her studio so some have suspected that maybe one of these Diaries was a fake that that somebody had either planted it
or it was just something that was misunderstood to be a diary and wasn't in fact that or maybe there's two I mean
maybe there's just a diet you know some people like to keep Journal it's good for M you know mental health you know
get out of the journal just kind of jot down your thoughts of your day how you're feeling you know just kind of
check in you know Journal one and then then another journal or another diary that is more in depth about certain
events and certain things more kind of a keeping track of history and you're exactly right because one of her friends
would state that what they were looking for was a journal a diary uh with personal information with with maybe
even potentially top secret information however what they had found was more of a Sketchbook was more of
something that you would expect to find in an artist studio or an artist home where it was just kind of Doodles and
and things of that like little ideas why else could this be a conspiracy Captain well let's go back to
that Lieutenant Mitchell now he's the the the man that came forward the day after Ray Crump Jr was arrested yeah
he's the jogger he's the jogger that claims he jogged by Ray and he testifies a trial now on the date that he goes
into the police department and says hey I was there yesterday and I saw her and I saw him uhhuh he states that his job
is he's a lieutenant with the Army okay when they go to trial he gives a different description of his occupation
he never states that he's with the army he states that he's a teacher at Georgetown I believe mathematics was
what he was teaching okay now there have been several authors that have written about this case now more than one of
them have gone back and done the detective work done done did I say dung who knows that's funny well Lieutenant
Mitchell's story might be a pile of dung because the authors have gone back and more than one have concluded when they
contacted the University of Georgetown that he's never been listed as a as a professor or teacher there ever ever
including 1965 when he was at trial stating that that was his occupation very interesting well then
who the hell is this Lieutenant Mitchell well the other and second of all again remember we pointed out that in the
trial he's the only one saying that he was there you know Ray Crump Jr never says he saw this Lieutenant Mitchell
jogging Mary pincho Meer is dead the white couple never comes for they're never identified they could be not even
exist and the man wearing theud shorts or they could be people having an affair that don't want to come forward yeah but
what about the man with a Bermuda shorts all by himself he's never identified or
or seen by anybody else and never comes forward saying that he was down there that day and had seen anything yeah so
we have the one case with the Jorts and now we have the Bermuda berms yeah we should write songs about
this uh the other thing too is you know the Babushka lady mhm you know what I'm talking about yeah I think I've seen the
picture of her the picture basically if you look up the JFK assassination there is this lady that they call the B
Babushka lady mhm my tongue is getting in the way of my talking today so this lady has never been
identified I believe and a lot of people believe that Mary Meyer was the Babushka
lady and the Babushka lady was in Dallas Texas on the day that uh JFK was killed
is that correct right now one could dis you know if they're having an affair and
we have a letter that was unsent JFK saying hey come visit me here come visit me there was she just in the audience of
the parade visiting her you know lover right love um was she the bushka lady it's interesting what's interesting to
me though is the Babushka lady has very distinct glasses and if you look up Mary
Meyer Babushka lady you can see pictures side by side I'll post that on Instagram
uh True Crime garage that's also on the website too True Crime garage.com we did get a bunch of emails
of people asking us they're like I know this case is interesting but I really want to hear uh you guys go through the
JFK assassination and I thought oh my goodness because I mean West Memphis 3 I flinched a few times when we decided to
do that case cuz it was huge o was a big case I mean we kind of rushed West Memphis 3 a little bit we could have
made that like part six you know six parts yeah because when we got into it we thought that three would would more
than cover it and we got into it and we realized holy moly and we kind of had to
rush through some stuff but can I give you a couple quick bullet points on my thoughts of JFK and his assassination do
we got time for that I guess oh God you're like opening up this can of War worms you know no I just have some
questions okay the here's the questions that I have when I when I think about the assassination and whether Oswald did
it or whether there were other people involved or Oswald was not even involved you know there there's some things that
are very questionable now we need to keep in mind you had mentioned going you know pulling out of the war at the time
but there was also some things going on within our government that that is of the same mind now keep in mind we were a
war economy back then that was what drove our economy so yes the government would most likely want us to stay at War
but what was going on as well is we had the cold war with the Russians going on at the same time now the weird thing
here is that the the military and the CIA was not working hand inand with President Kennedy at the time President
Kennedy was making deals and working on making treaties with the Russians to to to end the testing of nuclear weapons MH
and this is not something that the military wanted to do in fact when we had the um the Cuban Missile Crisis the
military and the CIA wanted to use this to their advantage to basically start World War III they wanted to use it as
an excuse to launch nuclear missiles towards Russia and they wanted it to they wanted to use this to invade Cuba
as well and now Kennedy I know that we've attacked his personal life quite a bit but we we should I just called him a
[ __ ] yeah but we should stand up for him in the fact of being a good president that he was seeming to make
moves towards peace and he Wasing efforts to mes towards peace he didn't agree withing the nuclear weapons at
Russia he did not agree with going in and trying to evade invade Cuba uh so he was doing things that they didn't agree
with this and it's weird when you see the military and the president not working together in my opinion yeah well
that's I mean that's the you know shows motivation of why they would want cou d'a and there's another person you
should look up and this is Tony sh and her father was Joe shyan now it's hard to figure out exactly what his job was I
believe that he had worked for the Secret Service but there's many people that bring him up and say that you know
if you follow him this Joe shyan enough that he seems to work in whatever branch
of the military or whatever Branch for our government that is uh convenient at the time you know sometimes He's listed
as having been in the Air Force sometimes He's listed as being FBI man or CIA or secret service now so he's
kind of a guy that seems to move around and be a little Shifty but one thing she
said about her father that that she has said time and time again that that always stands out in my mind was that
she she said that six months before Kennedy was assassinated that her father had told
her that lynon Johnson had come to him and asked for more security and this would be more security than the
president was receiving and he just kind of wanted to mention that to his daughter at the time because he found it
to be a very strange request he also thought it to be a very uh foreshadowing request yeah I mean hindsight's 2020 I
guess I don't know I don't want to get into it too much because I hope that we cover it sometime and actually like
actually dive into it maybe next November yeah yeah that's a we're setting up a giant task anyways is
it was she a part of was her murder a conspiracy um I don't know and I wouldn't put it past uh anybody to me
there is no like you know direct red flag of oh this is a conspiracy I think that she has ties to Timothy ly that are
interesting she has obviously ties to the CIA that are interesting with her ex husband she has ties to JFK being one
his neighbor being his friend being somebody that you know look I keep saying possibly had an affair cuz other
than people going yeah we think that happened there's not much proof and you know I I don't think I think it's
irresponsible just to say oh yeah yeah she was definitely having you're right it's not 100% proof positive but well
what they claim is this unsent letter is the proof well it's unsent it would be different if it was sent um but like I
said it's again it's a shitty Love Letter it's a boo call letter is what it is but but there does seem to be more
people inside that Circle saying that there was an affair between the two than than are saying there was not yeah but
that what I'm saying is you have all these things tying that really kind of seem like oh yes definitely there's some
conspiracy and normally I'm so quick to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon this one there's just nothing that hooks me
to go this is defini definitively something weird going on this is just a lot of kind of circles that she run in
um the circles that she ran with it's it's odd so but I think anybody that ran in those circles would think possibly
this could be a conspiracy well and I think if you want to I I mean this Lieutenant William
Mitchell is a big red flag for me he there seems to be a lot of problems with the things he said there's a lot of
problems with his career now there's one author that has said that he believes that Mitchell was the one that that in
fact murdered Mary pincho Meer and he's worked to build a case against him all these years later and this has been
taking place within the past few years will it ever become a a trial will he ever be brought up on those charges
probably not this man is in his 70s by now and he's led a very shadowy uh mysterious life um was was he
simply just not there that day is what I wonder was he just coming forward and and regurgitating what he heard in the
read in the newspaper and and he's backing up this story so that they have a Fall Guy right or what or was he paid
you know to come forward or was he paid to hire a hit on her and then they thought there was a possibility that
maybe he was seen so they wanted him come who who knows there's a bunch of wh ifs the sad thing is that you know Mary
Meyer was a you know a very smart intelligent creator woman she was a mother um you know she overcame a lot of
adversities in her life she seemed to be such a very positive person a positive influence on other people in her life
and she lost her life for whatever reason and that's the point and that's and that's the sad thing the other sad
thing to me the other thing the upsetting thing about this to me is that the day that that trial started in 1965
against Ray Crump Jr for the murder of Mary pincho Meer the investigation stopped and even when he was acquitted
and he walked out of that courtroom a free man they never they didn't investigate this crime anymore they just
let it be they just walked away from it and said you know what we got a bad verdict and this guy's absolutely guilty
and that's wrong that's wrong this should be it's I'm sure it's considered legally an open case but not in the
opinion of the investigators back then and I'm sure not nowadays well I mean you see this I mean even with like the
West Memphis 3 when you give the you know you give them a plea deal they get out of jail and then they go well no
these guys are still guilty we still believe they're guilty well if you still believe they're guilty then why are you
letting them out on the street if you still believe those guys murdered 8-year-old children why are you letting
them out on the street you're stating that so you don't have to do the work yeah and and and it's you can't have it
both ways well it's it's very sad because again not only do you have the victim but you have the victim's family
that has no answers all right I hope you guys enjoyed this episode I got a little
recommended reading for you that's what we're getting to well thank you uh this week's recommended reading the mamic
sorry the mamic the mammoth book of coverups this is by John E Lewis the 100 most disturbing conspiracies of all time
I recommend picking this up this is kind of like the Guinness book of conspiracies if you will uh this is
covering cases like the assassination of JFK things like The Da Vinci Code Area 51 the death of Princess Diana and the
Illuminati you like to talk about the Illuminati uh and of course many many more there's the 100 most disturbing
cases and conspiracies of all time the mammoth book of coverups by John E Lewis go to our website truecrime garage.com
click on the recommended page that's on there as well as the book that we recommended last week Mary's Mosaic and
like always you can follow us at truecrimegarage go to the website sign up on the mailing list make sure you
subscribe to the show make sure you tell a friend and also social media Twitter Facebook Instagram all that stuff at
True Crime garage and until next week be good be kind and don't let [Music] her [Music]
Shopify is the global Commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business with the internet's best
converting checkout 36% better on average compared to other leading Commerce platforms Shopify helps you
turn browsers into buyers in fact Shopify Powers 10% of all e-commerce in the US sign up for a $1 per month trial
period at shopify.com slmp podcast free all lowercase shopify.com SLP podcast free shopify.com slmp podcast
free

Mary Pinchot Meyer /// Part 2 /// 63

Truecrimegarage.com (http://truecrimegarage.com/)

October 12, 1964 Mary Pinchot Meyer went out for her usual midday stroll to get some fresh air and maybe a little inspiration. While out walking near the C & O canal Mary was attacked. She was shot twice, died practically instantly and left for someone to find. Police make an arrest and the trial is set. But do they have the right guy? Or was Mary killed by some shadowy agency because of an affair with the late President Kennedy? This week in the garage we continue to look at the unsolved murder of Mary Pinchot Meyer. Was Mary's murder a hit and cover-up put together by an organized group like the C.I.A. or was it a random act of violence committed by a loner? Hmmm, that's funny. Isn't that the same question we ask ourselves about John Kennedy's murder?

Beer of the week - Conspiracy Theory by Southern Star Brewing CompanyGarage grade - 4 out of 5 bottle caps

Beer Fund: https://truecrimegarage.com/home

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com (https://pcm.adswizz.com) for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Brief Summary

Mary Pinchot Meyer was murdered, Raymond Crump Jr. was acquitted amid trial drama and racial tensions, leaving the case unsolved.

Key points

Mary Pincho Meyer Murder Case. The case of Mary Pincho Meyer, shot and killed in Georgetown, unfolds with shocking details.
Defense Attorney's Bold Move. A defense attorney agrees to represent Ray Crump Jr. for just $1, aiming to boost her profile.
The Prosecution's Plan. The prosecution believes they have a solid case against Ray Crump Jr. based on eyewitness accounts and quick police response.
Doy Rry's Cross-Examination. Defense attorney Doy Rry challenges the prosecution's case by revealing inconsistencies in witness testimonies.
Trial Height Controversy. Ray Crump Jr's height discrepancies raise questions about the trial's integrity.
Character Witnesses. Doy Roundtree calls three character witnesses, including Crump's wife, to testify.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

This is true crime!

7:42WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

More from True Crime Garage TV

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.