Mary Pinchot Meyer /// Part 2 /// True Crime | Forensic Files

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That's right. Gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer, and let's talk some true crime.
[Music] This is true crime garage and this is the case of Mary Pincho Meyer. [Music]
[Applause] [Music] Washington, October 13th. Mrs. Mary Pincho Meyer, a Washington artist and
society woman, was shot and killed yesterday. The police arrested Raymond Crump Jr., a
25-year-old laborer, and charged him with murder. Mrs. Meyer, 43 years old, was shot twice
in the left temple and in the chest as she walked alone on the old Chesapeake and Ohio Canal to path in Georgetown.
She died at about 12:45 p.m. [Music] The toe path, a pedestrian and bicycling route frequented by children and
fishermen, parallels the Ptoac River. Mrs. Meyer had sometimes taken a walk there with Mrs. John F. Kennedy. Mrs.
Meyer's friends said Mrs. Kennedy, who now lives in New York, was described as a good friend of Mrs.
Meyer. Mrs. Meyer's brother-in-law, Benjamin C. Bradley, identified the body. He is the
Washington bureau chief of Newsweek magazine. Mrs. Meyer was Mrs. Bradley's sister.
Mr. Bradley was a close friend of President Kennedy. The victim was divorced wife of Cord
Meyer Jr., a writer and founder of the United World Federalists, now employed here by the Central Intelligence Agency.
The driver of an automobile tow truck along Canal Road, which runs parallel to the tow path, enabled the Metropolitan
Police to make a quick arrest of the suspect. He was arraigned late yesterday before a
United States commissioner and held without bail on a charge of murder. He denied any knowledge of the crime. The
tow truck operator, Henry Wiggins, 24, told the police he had seen a woman, apparently Mrs. Meyer, struggling with a
man. He heard screams and two shots and then saw a man bending over the body. He
drove quickly a half mile to the nearest telephone. The suspect was apprehended an hour
later wet beside the PTOAC near the shooting scene. He told the police he had fallen in the river while trying to
retrieve his fishing pole. The police reported finding a fishing rod at his home.
Mrs. Crump also identified a white jacket found near the scene as her husband's. The witness said the asalent
was wearing a white jacket. Divers were searching the canal and riverbottom for the murder weapon.
The Meyers were divorced 5 years ago following the death of their son in an automobile accident. Acquaintances said
this is true crime garage. And this is the case of Mary Pincho Meyer. Well, here we are, Captain. We're doing
part two of the Mary Pincho Meyer murder case. And why are we covering this? Because obviously we cover true crime
here in the garage. Oh, really? Yeah. And last week we started to cover this case because it was um the
anniversary of the assassination of JFK, our 35th president. Yes. And you know, this time of year, you're
seeing everything on TV involving the assassination. And this case has always been tied to that particular case.
Yeah. Because Mary Meyer and John F. Kennedy had a love affair of some kind. Yeah. They had an an intimate
relationship. Uh she had frequented the White House often. Um and and and they were former neighbors as
well. Correct. So when one looks at the assassination of JFK, one should look at
this case as well. And that's what we're doing here. Now, what was read in the trailer, that is the actual article, the
newspaper article that came out the day after Mary Meyer was shot uh in October of 1964. So, that kind of brings you up
to speed as far as what took place that day and what the general public's perception was of what took place that
day. And where we're at now is we have Ray Crump Jr., he's 25 years old. He's been apprehended. He was caught at the
scene. Mhm. So, some would argue he's caught red-handed uh with his fly down. Um but
anyway, he's arrested and he's arraigned awfully quickly later that same day. And
now we have a trial to contend with. Right. Right. We have to figure out is Ray Crump Jr. guilty of the death of Mary
Pincho Meyer. Now, some things that take place very quickly after he's arrested.
We have an attorney comes forward. Ray Crump Jr. is not of the means to be able to afford a strong defense attorney.
Right. However, a upand cominging and somewhat successful defense attorney, Dovy
Roundtree, she agrees to represent Ray Crump Jr. for the cost of $1. And and one could assume, right, that
maybe that because it's such a high-profile case, uh, you know, ex-wife of a CIA agent that and, you know,
connections to John F. identity that maybe this would boost her profile maybe. Mhm. Well, that's exactly what she was
doing. She was going to stake her whole reputation and her future career on this
case itself and how she represents Ray Crump Jr. Um, the other thing too is we have a bit
of a uh civil rights or racist or whatever how I don't know what the right word is here, but we have a bit of of of
a typical conflict. Well, let's just be clear and let's be blunt, right? So, and
this is 1964 and it's a white woman and the accused is a black male. So, um I believe this
lawyer, you know, not only to boost her profile, but also who is going to defend
this man adequately against this against technically a white system at that time.
Yeah, she probably stepped forward hoping to make sure that Ray Crump Jr. received a fair trial. This is not just
a white woman. This is a society woman. And this is a a kind of a a low guy on the totem pole, Ray Crump Jr., a young
laborer who has no money. And let's see what kind of trial he's going to get. Well, she quickly interviews Ray Crump
Jr. and after meeting with him after, you know, several times, she decides that she believes that he's innocent.
And she says in her biography that came out many years later that she would not represent Ray Crump Jr. unless she
believed he was innocent. Mhm. Her her reasoning for this is that when she met with him, she saw what she
considered to be a a small kind of meek man that was very confused about a situ this situation.
Right. Right. He didn't even really understand what had happened or why he was arrested for
what had happened. Yeah. So his story, I mean simply at the scene of the crime was that he's fishing
and a pole goes in the water and he goes after it and he falls into the water himself and then he's arrested.
Mhm. Um no involvement, no connection to Mary Meyer herself. Right. They didn't know one another. And
so she steps forward to represent him and she again she says that he's terrified because this is in Washington
DC. If you commit first-degree murder, it's a it's punishable by death. Yeah. And what's interesting here to me
is you see this in the OJ trial as well is like uh Johnny Cochran, for example, didn't want to be a part of the team
until he actually spoke to OJ. He had to believe OJ or he didn't want to take the case. And she's doing the
same thing. Correct. Yeah. She did the exact same thing. and it's going to be a a white judge, a
white prosecutor. Um, and this is not looking to favor Ray Crump Jr. Now, one thing that happens in the get-go, uh,
from the early part of this in February of 1965, um, Ray Crump Jr. is told that he is
going to submit a hair sample to the prosecution. Okay. And he refuses to do so. Now, this is
when Wait, hold on. So, you just said that he was going to. He He was No, he was told he was going to.
Okay. Okay. He was told he was going to. He refuses to do so. He He's brought into the
police captain's office in February of 1965. He refuses this hair sample. Okay. Uh what happens is I don't know the
legality of this whole situation, but it sounds a little messed up to me because
reportedly they held him down and took his hair from him. Uh, thus they ended up with a sample of his hair. Now, this
happened unbeknownst to Mrs. Roundtree who was representing him and she was quite angered by this and she would try
to get this removed from the actual trial. Now, they are not able to do so. His hair is going to be a part of this
trial and it's going to be looked at as evidence in this murder case. Now, this case would go to trial in the late
summer of 1965. Now, one of the first witnesses that would be called would be coroner Dr.
Rafford. And what I how I want to do this, Captain, if you would play along with me, is I'd like to go along through
some of this trial. We kind of talk about things as we go through it. Um, but the thing to me here is, you know,
how some trials are just downright boring and it's just kind of, you know, dry and a couple different people
presenting the facts and it's it's a real quick to uh decide whether this person's guilty or innocent and there's
not much news out of it, right? This trial to me, I would have loved to have been sitting in the
courtroom because this seemed like a trial that had a little bit of drama to it and it kind of played out like an
episode of Matlock in my opinion where you get to see it see everything in action and you get to see two attorneys
actually working against each other like they're playing a game of chess. Right.
So, the first witness that is called by the prosecution, this is coroner Dr. Rafford. Now, he that the I'll break
down his testimony for you. We don't have to go through the whole thing. Yeah, but he's basically saying that Mary
Pincho Meer was killed by two gunshots. This was a 38 caliber gun. Two shots, one to the temple that left a
slight halo around the entrance wound. And one to the right shoulder blade. This again
left a slight halo. Did you say the right temple? Yeah. Okay. So, the right temple. Right
shoulder blade. Okay. So the the bullet that entered through her shoulder blade,
it peripherated the lung and it severed the aorta. So basically once that happened, she died almost instantly
after the second bullet was fired. Okay. Now he's pressed a little bit because they want to figure out what does this
halo that's near the entrance wound mean? And the coroner would tell you that that halo is produced by powder
burns, meaning that the shot was very close. and distance if not point blank on Mary's body.
Right. Mary had abrasions on her head, knee, and ankle. Now, this this would suggest
that Mary fought her attacker and fought pretty hard. They were able to determine
that she was drugged about 25 ft. This is after she clung to a tree. Now, one of the bits of evidence that the
prosecution would say that they're going to show to the jury is that they found blood stains on one of the trees. Well,
this would be the tree that she she clung to. So, she was attacked. She was shot once. She clung to a tree. She's
drugged 25 ft. Shot again, dies instant instantly. That's how the coroner sees this attack going down.
And just to remember that that this happened during the day. This happened like basically at lunch break.
Yeah. At 12 approximately 12:20 p.m. Okay. In the very early afternoon. So, uh, the
other thing that the coroner is able to decipher here is that the asalent was able to overpower the victim. The
victim, Mary, she was 5'6 in tall and she weighed about 127 lbs. The coroner would also suggest that the
whoever fired the gun could be ambidextrous, that he could be a have the ability to use both the right and
left hand with the same amount of skill, right? and that he was probably skilled
with a handgun. Yeah. And you would assume that if the shots are coming from the the right side
of Mary that the the suspect would be left-handed or that he attacked her from behind and
he was right. Yeah. Yeah. True. Well, true. I mean, if you're if you're behind the victim and
you're right-handed, then you can shoot the right temple. But is the wound coming from the front of Mary or from
the back of Mary? The the shot that went through her shoulder blade. Yeah. That would have been in the back.
Okay. So, it would be more likely that the victim or the suspect would be right-handed. Y
because then they shoot. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, the the next witness called for the prosecution. This is supposed to
be one of the star witnesses for the prosecution. There was going to be two of them. And the first one was Henry
Wiggins. Now, you'll remember from what we said in the first episode, this is the tow truck driver.
Yeah. 24. Yeah. And so, he testifies that he was sent by Joe Cameron, this is his boss,
to pick up Bill Branch, that's his partner, and respond to a stalled vehicle at about 12:20 p.m. And the two
arrived arrived at the vehicle at that time. When the two arrived, they saw the vehicle. This is a Rambler. Okay. Uh,
and Wiggins immediately heard screams right after they arrived. So, this is within seconds. We we have we're able to
put together an easy timeline on her attack because he's saying within seconds of arriving at 12:20 p.m. he
hears screaming and this alerts him and he decides to run across the street. Before he could get to the wall is when
he hears the first shot. This is coming from the canal area. So, he proceeds. Then a few seconds later, he says a few
seconds later, he hears another shot. Now, his partner, Bill Branch, would later testify that it was more like 10
seconds or 15 seconds between shots. Mhm. Wiggins sees the man. He sees a man just
seconds after he hears the second shot. He says he's in clear sight of the man and he's less than 130 ft away.
Wiggins ducks down. So, a little more than a football field. Exactly. Because, you know, he's he's
hearing these shots. He's trying to react with feet, not yards. I'm sorry. Yeah. Less than 130 ft.
Yeah. He ducks down behind the wall. He's reacting. And then he gets back up again
and he looks and he sees a man put something in his jacket pocket. This item was in the man's right hand. He
could not say for certain if this item was a gun or not. He basically after being cross-examined says that he
described the item item as a dark hand object. Mhm. Something he was holding with his hand.
The man turns around and walks away. But this would go with our idea that he's right-handed.
You're exactly right. So he walks away down and over the hill. Uh the man was wearing a cap. This is one
of those caps where you can button the brim to the to the to the Yeah, I call it like a cab driver hat.
He was wearing dark pants, dark shoes, and a light or tan jacket. Uh, and he would state that the jacket was zipped
up. Now, so he says light or tan. Yeah. Okay. And he saw the man standing over the
body for approximately a minute. Uh, and says he did not go get a good look at the man's face. Wiggins later that day
would identify Ray Crump Jr. as this man. And he would identify Crump's clothing that was submitted to the court
as the clothing that he had seen the man standing over the body as wearing. But that was a white jacket.
Correct. Right. I mean, he says he says light or tan jacket, right? But there's a big difference
between white and tan. Mhm. Right. I mean, be a light tan jacket. Yeah. I don't know. Okay.
Bill Branch. Now, remember, he's Henry Wiggins, the other tow truck driver. that's his partner. He would testify
that he he was over by the wall. He didn't see the man, but after Wiggins had left to retrieve the police officers
that he had stood by the wall and kind of watched over the scene. Mhm. Well, there's a problem with this
testimony. Okay. Because at the crime scene, when he's interviewed by the police, he says when he heard the shot,
he was afraid. He he was working on the Nash Rambler that was stalled. Mhm. And when he heard the shot, he decided
to get in the vehicle and just kind of hide and hunker down inside the vehicle. Yeah. Fight or flight. And he he took
off on a flight. Yeah. And we all know you cannot tell the police in their report one thing and
then testify to something later in court. You know, he Well, I mean, you can, but
you can, but it's it it goes against it makes you uncredible. And think about this though here for a
second. So, he's probably a bit of a bit ashamed that he was just afraid and decided not to go over to the wall,
right? And no, no one knows how they're going to act in that situation until they're in that actual situation.
Well, this is where Dovy Roundtree, the defense attorney, would make her first strike against the prosecution in their
story. Okay. So, she's immediately pointing out that regardless of how long it took police to arrive, and most
people estimate that it was between 4 to 6 minutes after Mary Pincho Meyer was shot. So, very quick police response
time here, right? Mhm. She's stating that, let's be clear, there was nobody monitoring the crime
scene before the police arrive. You know, there there wasn't this Bill Branch watching over the crime scene.
Anything could have been going on down there, right, with without any eyewitnesses.
Now, what is the prosecution's general plan? Just to stick with what he you know, the
change of story. Yes, maybe um you know, maybe you feel inferior as a man, I guess, cuz you took off running and and
hidden your car, but also what are the cops telling you to say, right? Exactly. I mean, the cops are
going to be working with the prosecution to get a conviction and you got a guy at
the scene, you know, and he's a black man, so you know, case closed, right? Well, and what's the prosecution story?
The prosecution story is this, okay, that Mary Pincho Meyer was attacked. um her their first thought was that they
would point out that she was um maybe being robbed, that somebody tried to rob her and that that had gone wrong. But
quickly into this, they were able to point out that she would not be one that you would suspect of being robbed
because she didn't she didn't carry a wallet. Now, I know that an asalant might not know that, but she doesn't
have a purse with her and she's not wearing any jewelry. So, why are you robbing this woman? Now, they would
later say that it was probably a the result her death was a result of a sexual assault attempt on rape on Mary
who ended up putting up too much of a fight that Ray Crump Jr. shot her because of this fight because it got out
of hand and that she might be able to identify him, right? And that he fled the area. Now, why is
Ray Crump guilty of this crime? Well, it's obvious to the people of the jury, right? This is the prosecution speaking
because the police responded so quickly and there are steps and there are things
that you need to, you know, there are exits and entrances, natural exits and entrances to this tow path road into
this area. And the police were able to block off all four of those within 4 minutes of the attack. So, one would
think that the attacker was most likely trapped in that area and therefore would
be apprehended by the police looking for him a short while later, which Ray Crump
Jr. in fact was Ray was Yeah. So, let's think about their attack, their their plan, the prosecution's plan
for a second, okay? And let's bring in the next witness. The next witness was police officer John Warner. He
apprehended Ray Crump Jr. at 1:15 p.m. He was talking to Ray Crump for about 10 minutes before he decided to arrest him.
Now, this took place about one/tenth of a mile east of the murder scene. Now, when he does testify, when he came
across Crump, Crump was not running. He did not look like he was fleeing the area. He was just walking. Uh, and when
he when he approached Crump, he asked him for identification. He presented himself as a police officer. Crump did
not seem to be startled other than the fact that he was soaking wet, right? And he quickly tells him, "I'm Ray Crump
Jr." And he shows him identification. He's asked why he's there. Well, I I'm I'm here because I was fishing. Well,
why are you wet? Because just like the captain said, the fishing pole fell into the water. He went after it. Well, that
story doesn't make a whole lot of sense because Warner, Officer Warner, offers to go
with Crump to the area to help him retrieve his fishing gear, right? Crump says, "Well, it's it's in the
water. We're not going to be able to retrieve it." Then he changes his story. Crump says, "Well, I was I was actually
drinking and fishing and have fallen asleep and and when some point I stumbled into the water." Mhm.
Now, keep in mind, we said that Ray Crumb Jr. is soaking wet, right? Does he smell of alcohol? I mean,
is there any like stench to him? Warner didn't seem to uh he didn't seem to elaborate on that at all.
I mean, how drunk do you have to be to fall into the river? I don't know how drunk I think you have
to be pretty drunk, but I think his story is that he was drinking. Have you ever Wait, have you ever fell
into a river? Uh, not a river, but I have a pond. you why you're drinking. You fell into
Actually, similar story to Ray Crump Jr.'s. I was drinking I was drinking and fell asleep near the pond and then uh
got attacked by some of my friends and and woke up startled and fell into the pond.
Those are some nice friends. They're they're they're no longer friends. They're But sorry about that. Crump Jr. says
that he he had fallen asleep, fell into the water. Okay. Now, when he's found by
officer Warner, he's not wearing a cap and he's not wearing a jacket. So, shortly after he's apprehended, the
police start looking for a jacket and they start looking for the the the hat because,
right, the that the eyewitness saw. They need to uh find the guy that was described to them as described to them.
Mhm. And the next witness is Well, let's uh take a quick pause, get grab a beer, take a quick beer break.
And we're back from the beer break. Yeah, Captain, I want to talk about real quickly the description that is given of
the suspected asalent in Mary Pincho's murder because this will come up time and time again throughout the trial.
Okay. So the description that is given by the first what is quote unquote the star witness Henry Wiggins is that he
had seen a man that was approximately 5 foot to 5 I'm sorry 5'8 to 5' 10 in tall
about 180 lb African-American and in his 40s and we had already described the clothes
that he saw the man wearing now why is this important well Ray Crump Jr. Yes, he vaguely fits this description, right?
I mean, he's an African-American man, but outside of that, uh, on his driver's license, he's listed as 5 foot 3 in, 5'
3 and 1/2 in, sorry, 130 lb and he's 25 years old. So, he's quite a bit younger than the
man in his 40s and he's quite a bit shorter and lighter than the man that was described.
Way shorter. Exactly. Now, he is wearing somewhat the same clothes. You know, when Officer
Warner confronts Ray Crump Jr. and when he apprehends him, he is wearing the dark trousers, the dark shoes that were
described, but he does not have this light colored jacket on and he does not have a hat.
Now, the police were very quickly able to find the jacket. Within minutes of them apprehending Ray Crump Jr., they go
looking for this jacket. And this jacket's found about 45 minutes after they apprehend him. Now, they wouldn't
find the hat until the following day throughout this time. Right. But one could assume that if if
Ry um was the murderer that he disposed of these items, correct? And Ray Crump, this is what
he's he looks like when he's apprehended. He is soaking wet. The officer notes that his fly is down. uh
his pants pocket was torn and the he had a cut on his right hand and a small cut
above his eye. Now, this would lead the police to believe that this these were injuries sustained during the uh attack
on Mary Pincho Meyer, right? Cuz she fought back. His his excuse for these injuries are
that he fell into the water and he he got hurt on the rocks. The next witness that is called by the prosecution, this
is Joseph Rans Ransenval. Sorry for the name there, Joseph. I probably butchered
that. But who is he? He works for the National Park Service. And why is he there? He's there to discuss the layout
of the tow path. And why is this important? Because again, the prosecution said that they were able to
to block off all those entrances and exits. and they believe that whoever committed this murder would have been
trapped and would have been apprehended very quickly as was Ray Crump Jr. Now, so they're looking at this map. They put
like this huge map on the wall right across from where all the jury members are sitting so they could see it while
they're going through the descriptions here. Mhm. Now, the this Joseph that worked for the
National Park Service, he's asked, you know, how many exits are on the toe path road on the toe path between Keybridge
and Chainbridge? And he states that there are four and within four minutes that the police were called, they had
blocked off all four of these, thus trapping the asalent inside. Mhm. Now, he points out these four exits as
one, there are steps to water street at Keybridge. Two, there's an underpass at Foundry Branch. Three, there's an
underpass at Fletcher's Boat House. And four, there are more steps at the chain bridge. Now,
throughout the trial, they will interview several of the officers that were blocking off these exits. And two
of the officers that were supposed to be blocking off the underpass at Fletcher's
boat house, they state that after about 5 minutes, they got tired of blocking off their spot. Right.
Okay. So, they Well, everybody wants to catch the killer, right? I think that's why
some people go into law enforcement. They they want to be the hero, you know? And so after about 5 minutes,
they get a little tired of waiting and blocking their spot. They decide that they are going to each take a route that
would lead them near the scene of the murder. So they're taking separate routes. Now, during the course of one of
these routes, one of the officers, he sees a head peak out of the woods. Now, he doesn't go full charge right into the
woods looking for this man because he believes that this is probably the murder suspect. Why? The only thing he
could identify from seeing the head of this person was that it was a head of an African-American male. Now he sees this
person approximatelyund 150 feet away from him. Okay. He decides to wait there and he's
waiting for backup before he's going to go apprehend this man. Backup never comes. So after some time passes,
they figure out that they're they're ne never able to locate this man. Now, a key thing in the trial that will come
out here is that this officer says that he saw this man approximately at 1:45 p.m. Well, this is where we're going to
see the great attorney Dovy Roundtree make her second strike against the pro prosecution's theory.
So, on cross-examination of this man of Joseph from the National Park Service, she's going through the map with him.
Now, she did the leg work. She would go down to the toe path day after day after
day and scour the scene to see what what was going on and what it looked like and
walk the ground herself. I don't think the prosecution did this. I think that they got they got caught without knowing
what was going on here. Right. Yeah. Or they were cocky and assumed it's 1965. We got a black man. You know,
we're going to we're going to charge him. He's going to be found guilty easily. I think they may have thought it was
going to be an easy win. Well, they didn't realize that they're going to be dealing with Dovy Roundtree. So, she's
going to make her second strike here. And what is this? Through cross-examination of this man, she
points out that there is a fifth exit that Joseph didn't know about. Um, and this points out something here,
which is weird cuz he's the expert on this. Yeah. And I don't think he actually knew
the area. I think he was just somebody that worked for the National uh Park Service. And they
they just call him in. They call him in as an expert witness, right? quote unquote.
What the juryy's able to figure out is this guy's not an expert witness. This is just a guy that that works for the
parks department and he is observing a map that anybody could look at. Right? So, there's a fifth exit. And the
problem with this is well, not only is there an exit that they didn't know about, but
it wasn't blocked by anybody. This wasn't this wasn't being blocked off by officers. So,
so, so we have uh one officer that saw a different black u male. Well, and then we have another exit altogether
that's not blocked. Yeah. So, there's a couple problems here for the prosecution because the
prosecution will come out and say that that black male that peaked his head out of the woods, well, that was Ray Crump
Jr. That that happened, you know, we saw the officers saw him and he was apprehended later. Well,
he must have been hiding behind a very small tree. But we got to look at eyewitness testimony, right? So this
officer says that he saw the man approximately at 1:45 p.m. Well, Ray Crump Jr., it was already been
right. He was already arrested. He was already arrested at 1:15 p.m. So, it could not have been Ray Crump Jr.,
right? Unless he got the time wrong. And the other thing through testimony of the
uh the gentleman from the National Park Service that they are able to determine that Dovy Roundtree points out to the
jury is that not only are there five exits and not four, but there are also plenty of areas where somebody a person
on foot could just leave without having used the steps or anything of that nature.
Right? So, she's picked apart the prosecution theory pretty good right here in my
opinion. She's pointed out that a all the areas were not blocked off that whoever killed Mary Pincho Meyer could
have got away, right? Two, she's pointing out that there not only, you know, there the only person
seen near the body was this African-American male that vaguely matches the description of Ray Crump
Jr., but she's already established that he was clearly not the only African-American male that was down near
the toe path that day that day and at that time. Right? So, this is going to start presenting a
whole bunch of problems for the prosecution. Now, let's keep in mind, too, that the
police had searched for days and days looking for the murder weapon. Now, they did go into the water looking for this.
The murder weapon was never found. They never located the gun that that that shot these 38 caliber bullets,
right? So, you could one assume that it got lost in the water. Mhm. If if Ry actually fell into the water or
he disposed of the gun in the water, making it a lot harder to find. Or you could also assume that if if Ry is
innocent that the the real killer left the park with the gun. Exactly. And that's what she would point
out to the jury. So now the prosecution, they're going to bring in their second star witness. This
is Lieutenant Mitchell. Now, he is this is where the prosecution really liked their their attack. Okay, their first
eyewitness was a black man who was pointing out another black man. And so, they thought that that would ring some
truth, you know, that it's not just a bunch of white people accusing this African-American man of committing the
crime. Now, this is where they thought they were going to hit the home run. And this
is why they called Lieutenant Mitchell last because this is a former military man,
right? uh he's he's a white guy and he's of some standing in in the area. So they
believe that, you know, this is somebody that the jury as well as the general public public would find truthful and
trustworthy. So he says that he would go jogging often around that time almost daily.
Yeah. And on his jog he passed what he identified as Mary Pincho Meyer. This would be shortly before she was
attacked. He said that about 200 yards after he passed Mary Pincho Meyer that he jogged past an African-American man
wearing a light tan jacket, dark trousers, dark plaid cap with a brim, and the man was not carrying any fishing
equipment. Uh he also stated that he saw, you know, who else did you see that day? He says, "Well, I saw a young white
couple and I saw another jogger who was wearing Bermuda Bermuda shorts." Okay. Uh neither. We need to point out
something here. when they're looking for the killer. Mhm. Okay. Mitchell comes to the police the
day after after they had already arrested Ray Crump Jr. and says, "This is the man that I saw walking jo, you
know, he's right near the victim." Now, these other people that he states that he passed on his jog that day,
these people never come forward. They're never identified and they never come forward as eyewitnesses.
Right? So he we got to point out something and we'll come back to this later after the trial, but remind me
about this Lieutenant Mitchell. Okay. Now, Lieutenant Mitchell would state that he gave the same description the
day after the day after Ray Crump Jr. was arrested. That was given by Wiggins. Now, on on trial,
Yeah. But Wiggins, you know, his eyewitness account is a little off of what Ry actually looks like. Mhm. And at
trial, um, this Lieutenant Mitchell is going to be very vague about his description. You know, when he's asked
to give the height and the weight of the man, he says that he looked to be about
my size. Well, Lieutenant Mitchell was approximately 5'8 and about 175 to 180 pounds. This again making him much
bigger than Ray Crump Jr. However, he's never willing. He's pressed by Dovy Roundtree, but he never really fully
admits that he believed the man to be um exactly that size and weight. He just keeps saying someone about my size.
Again, I'm going to go back to the description of of Ray Crump Jr. or what was given of the man seeing standing
over the body. Now, again, this is somebody you're given. You're right. You're given
the eyewitness account of the suspect. This is somebody that was described as an African-American male, stocky, about
180 lbs and between the heights of 5'8 in and 5' 10 in and in his 40s. Okay. So, when officer Warner arrested Ray
Crump Jr., he was presented with identification. This would have shown him that he didn't Ray Crump Jr. didn't
fully match the description of the man that they were looking for. This presents a problem because there
was no there was no gray area about this. They had the testimony of 12 officers that were investigating the
crime that day that all heard the description that went out over the radio of whom they were to be looking for.
Right. And 10 of them state that we were looking for an African-American man stocky 5'8 in in his 40s. Two of the
officers give a different description. They say, "We were looking for an African-American man 5' 10 in 180 lb and
in his 40s." But what you can figure out there is that this is not the description of Ray Crump Jr.,
right? His driver's license states that he's 5' 3 and 1/2 in, 130 lb. Now, on the date
that he was arrested, the police booking, they list him as 5'5 1/2 in and 145 lb. So, he's slightly taller,
slightly heavier than what his driver's license states. Now, what it does not state in the in the booking report was
Ray Crump Jr. was known to have wore lifts that would make him look taller, right? So, I mean, they could have
measured him there and he had the lifts on so he would be 5'5. It was You're exactly right. He was It
was unclear at the time of the trial whether he was arrested wearing these lifts or not. So, he could have been
taller the day he was arrested. The other thing was when given his weight 100% but he's arrested the day of.
Right. So he's arrested the day of. So we can assume he had the lifters on during the attack.
No, we can assume that. But what I'm saying is it was brought up in trial and the police were unable to give a full
report as to the shoes that he was wearing that day, if he was wearing the lifts or not. They they couldn't
determine that. That was there was no record of that. They just took his height and marked it down and moved on.
But they marked it down as 5'5. So they marked him down as they're either lying or he's wearing the lifts and he was
actually 5'5. Exactly. And the other thing is with given his weight, you know, I'm assuming that they're not lying.
Is he heavier because he's wearing wet clothes? I mean, I know that wouldn't add that wouldn't add 15 pounds to you,
but it might add a little bit. You know, I think there's some things on your driver's license that, you know,
they say as long as you're within 50 pounds or whatever that you don't have to change your amount. So, it it might
just be one of those scenes. He's 25 years old, maybe he's a little heavier and and he never changed that on his
license. So, we can all agree though that Dobby Roundtree poked quite a bit of holes in
the prosecution's theory of what took place that day, right? She's feeling pretty good about her case and she
decides that she only calls three eyewitnesses and those eyewitnesses are all people that are just going to
testify toward the character of Ray Crump Jr. And the other thing here though is that
all three of them, one of them being his wife, all three of them had known Ray Crump Jr., this is their testimony, for
15 years or more. And at no point had any of them ever known Ray Crump Jr. to own a gun or to even mention that he
owns a gun. Right? So, we have this guy that is considered not to be a gun owner and we have the
coroner saying that not only is this person ambidextrous, but he's probably skilled with a handgun. So, we have a
guy that might not have even owned a gun, let alone have any skill with one. Yeah. But one, I don't think it it's
necessary that he's capable of using his left hand or his right hand. And also skilled with the gun, able to hold a gun
up to a body and pull a trigger. That's he's not sharp shooting here, right? He's shooting uh somebody by
basically holding the gun to him. Boom. Pull the trigger. And the other thing that Dovy Roundtree would point out to
the jury was that the coroner specifically said that he believed that the asalent was able to overpower the
victim. Now, she points out that, keep in mind, you know, yeah, it it would have been
man versus woman. However, Ray Crump Jr. is shorter than the victim and weighs only a pound or two more than the
victim. So, easily overpowered. Ray Crump Jr. might have been able to do that. But is it like overly believable?
No. There's some questions there. Well, I mean, but she did put up a fight. Mhm. Now, on the final day after she
calls the character witnesses, she decides this is she's going into court with the assumption that she is going to
call Ray Crump Jr. to the stand. and she believes hard and fast that this is what
she's going to do because his story will further back up uh what he was doing there that day. Now, what was her plan?
He had told her a story that he had not told anybody else. That he was down there at the by the water drinking with
a married woman and he being a married man that this was something that they had done more than one occasion that
they would go down there and they would drink together and have a little little kiss face.
Right. There's a lot of male [ __ ] in this story. Um, however, this woman never came
forward. She she did um write a letter or she wrote uh some kind of uh testimony that was given to Dovy
Roundtree, but it was going to state her name. No, because she was married. Right. Right.
And uh this was not something that could be presented in court. Now, Dovy Roundtree on her way into court that
day, she you had to take an elevator to get up to the floor where they were holding court. Well, and also if he's
with this married woman, if that's a true story, then the police's accusations that this was a sexual
attack because it didn't make a lot of sense as far as a robbery goes. You see what I'm saying? So, if he's down there
uh fornicating with a married woman, then why would he have a sexual assault on this other lady?
Exactly. And on the final day of trial, Dovy Roundtree is going into the courthouse and she's going to have to
take the elevator up to the floor that's holding trial that day. And the elevator
operator throws her a little curveball. She says, "You know, I just I just took the prosecution team up to the floor."
Now, the whole time they were in the elevator, they were going on and on about how happy they were that Ray Crump
Jr. was going to take the stand. and they could not wait to pick him apart. They had had this all planned out. They
were gonna spend the whole afternoon picking apart his testimony. I don't know if that's an elevator
operator's job. I don't know. But uh have you ever been in in an elevator where there's an actual operator?
Yeah, that's pretty interesting. It's very old school. Um but anyway, so she gets this tidbit from the elevator
operator and she decides that you know what? If they're if these good old boys are so happy about picking apart his
testimony, I'm not even going to bother calling him to the stand. Right. Why take the risk? If you feel
like you're ahead, you have more to lose than gain. Mhm. Um, long story short, Captain Ray
Crump Jr. is acquitted of the murder of Mary Pincho Meyer. Oh, right. So, what is the aftermath of this,
though? It's an unsolved murder. It's an unsolved murder to this date. The murder took place in the six in '
64. the trial was in ' 65. We here we are all these years later with no answers. Now, there have been plenty of
people that have stated that while this should still be an open case, that technically, if you do some digging, it
is an open case. However, after the trial, it was never investigated anymore. They spent no more time on
investigating this murder after the trial. Why? because the police chief at the time believed that the prosecutor
had botched the trial that did not do a good job on the trial and furthermore believed that Ray Crump Jr. killed Mary
Pincho Meyer and the only reason why he got out of it was because of of racial stuff that the jury was primarily
African-American. There were eight African African-American people on the jury of 12. And so you have a lot of
people that point out, well, this can't be a conspiracy because Ray Crump Jr. did it. He just happened to get off
because he had eight people um that are in the same race that helped him get off. And furthermore, Dovy Roundtree,
she was a a minister at an all black um congregation. And they believed that it was kind of like like you had said to me
earlier, Johnny Cochran, where she was able to talk in a way and present her story in a way and that that some of the
white police officers and law enforcement at the time believed that, you know, because of her church
background and because of the way that she said things and would convey things to the jury that those eight
African-American jurors would have believed anything that she said. Well, right, the the idea of the lawyer
is to tell a better story. which lawyer tells the better story. Um, but I mean, he has some things going
against him and some things that went for him in this case. It's very hard to know.
Uh, I mean, I think that probably played a part. I mean, how many um, AfricanAmerican males are getting a fair
trial in 64, you know, not many. And this was taking place in the north, right? You know, I I don't, you know, I imagine
that varies. Uh, I would imagine it would be less likely to get a fair trial in the south, but this was taking place
in the north. There was, you know, unfortunately there's still racism today. Everybody knows that. We can
pretend that it's not going on, but there's racism today. Could you imagine the racism?
Imagine if somebody just walks through their life going, "Yeah, I'm just going to pretend that this [ __ ] doesn't
happen. I'm just going to say that we're not racist." No. Uh, yeah. What's interesting here
though is, you know, Mary Meyer is, you know, a woman ahead of her time in in a lot of uh facets of her life, right?
Oh, yeah. Very many. And and so is is Ray's lawyer. She's she's a woman ahead of her time. She's a
African-American woman, right? She's a she's also a preacher and and she's a lawyer. I mean, in ' 65.
And then not only that, but she takes I mean, I wonder where her career went after this. She had a very successful
career. I don't know if she went on to um be a part of any other famous cases, but I believe she she had a biography
that came out sometime in the '9s. So that's why so much of this stuff is u you know able to be reported easily. You
know, you have the trial transcripts, you have her biography, plus there were all these other biographies of people
near Mary Pincho Meyer that came out later in life because she was a society woman. She was surrounded by successful
people. Well, and like we said, the the unscent love letter from JFK sold for almost
$90,000, you know, this year. So, I mean, uh, anything that's connected with, uh, John
F. Kennedy has been very sought after in the public eye. Now, there were several people involved
in this trial, one being the prosecutor, um, stating that if you look at Ray Crump Jr.'s life after the trial that
that points out that that he did this murder. Okay. Because uh he would go on to have a very
lengthy police record uh which involved um things like arson uh and assaults. I think he had two arson on there. I think
he burnt down his own house at one point. Um insurance fraud. And they would point out that
hey, by the way, next week I'm burning down the garage. I think Ray Crump Jr. was arrested like
22 times after this uh trial took place and and he had actually moved out of state too. So some of those weren't him
being targeted by anybody. Um sorry about that. I just hit my head. Um but they would point out that he was in
fact a violent man. Now in Dovy Roundtree's biography, she states that she she has a good lit test for these
type of things, right? She would interview a lot of people and have to determine whether they're guilty or
innocent. So, I I'm going to go with her on this. And she states that she believes that that nine months in jail
that that Trump sat there waiting for his trial had changed him because she saw a man that was had been attacked
multiple times while he was in jail. She believed he might even have been raped at one point. and she saw a very
different man walk out of the trial doors that day than the man that walked into him at the start. And she thinks
that that changed him. And obviously he had a a drinking problem. He had had a small drinking problem before he went on
trial before Mary Pincho's murder. And she saw that his alcoholism became very acute afterwards. And and this would
lead to all these problems that he had with the law. Well, yeah. I mean, but you also have,
you know, you're living in this world thinking that you're going to get a fair shake and and I'm sure um
I'm sure anybody of decent intelligence back in 63, 64, 65, this time period, uh, African-American male knows that
some of the some of society's cards are stacked against you already. Mhm. And so, but but with those cards being
stacked against you, other than that, you're hoping you get a fair shake, right? If you do the right thing, then
then good things happen to you. And and but I mean, one, whatever, if if his story is true, um, and he was actually
with a married woman, then you weren't doing the right thing at the time. And but then this happened, and then this
kind of sets this spiral, and it changes your mindset. Well, this is how the world works and it doesn't matter if I
did it or not. All these people think I'm guilty of it. That'd be a really tough thing to defend yourself on.
Well, and you hinted on something there that I've always said for many, many years, you know, and in regards to Ray
Crump Jr., he was not just a man in the wrong place at the wrong time. No, this was a man willingly putting himself in a
bad situation. He went down there that day to do something he shouldn't be doing. And I've always said for years,
if you put yourself in a bad situation or you put yourself around bad people enough, bad things are going to happen
to you. I'm not saying he deserved what happened to him that day if he was in fact innocent. However, you know, that's
the moral of the story here. Now, you also hinted on something earlier that I I appreciate because when when I first
started looking at this case and the more I got to know about Mary Pincho Meyer, the more I got to admire her. I I
think she was an incredible woman that has a bigger story that's that's more than just possibly having an affair with
the late president. Yeah. I think that she was an extremely interesting woman. I think that she fit into high society
very good, but she also had this inner hippie inside of her which was cool. And the other thing though you pressed on
was well you can be a part of high society but understand that the idea is that you
have to have an open mind. And if you have open mind about issues, you're more likely to solve the problems,
right? And she fit into both of those categories. The other thing here, too, is like you said about Dovy Roundtree.
Yeah. This was an amazing woman. I mean, I could only imagine if if if she she poked holes in this prosecution's theory
like you wouldn't believe. I mean, she just tore apart their case in my opinion. And I always looked at
Yeah. But I I look, some of it is just I think a shitty prosecution. I mean, for
everything that you know, for when they go, well, this eyewitness testimony is off. He's only 53. Well, if he's lift
wearing lifters, then therefore their their eyewitness testimony is not that far off,
right? But we both agree that the prosecution came into this trial and they thought they probably had an easy
case. This is a a poor or a lower middle class black man accused of killing a wellto-do white woman, right? and it
happened in broad daylight. This is an easy case. But Dovy Roundtree could have walked in the same with the same
thought, right? She could have walked in and thought, "Well, this is an easy case
for me to lose. This is an African-American male charged with killing a white woman, and I'm just
going to go in here and make sure that he gets a fair shake. I'm not going to really work this thing real hard. I
think she worked this case really hard." Well, but in all fairness, she took the
case. So, I mean, you're not going to take a case to lay down. She took a case to win
it. No, you're and you're exactly right. But I think when she saw what was uh you
know the adversity in front of her, I think that she didn't back down and she never wavered and that she continued on
and she got the I think it's the right verdict. Now, I can't say from personal opinion whether I think Ray Crump Jr. is
guilty or innocent because I think there are things pointing to his guilt and things pointing to his innocence.
However, had I been on the jury back in 1965 and witnessed the trial as I understand it to be, I would have give a
verdict of innocent there. Right. Right. I I believe I would have too. Um but I don't know. I you know when I when
I cuz I put this one on the list. Uh I don't put a lot of cases on the on our our schedule. Um, and I did so because
I'm so fascinated with the assassination of John F. Kennedy and when this is always reported. So, I guess we can get
into the uh conspiracy side of things for just a little bit, right? Well, I was going to ask you, do we have
enough time to discuss uh any of the conspiracies? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's early in the day. I got a little
bit of time for you. Yeah. So, Well, I here's the thing is I I wanted there to be a conspiracy. I
wanted there to be this bigger thing, this bigger reason um regarding Mary Pincho's murder, not
JFK's. Right. Right. Right. But look, I will just come out and say it. I I do not think uh Lee
Harvey Oswald was the lone gunman. Well, before you get into that, let's talk about Mary.
Okay. No, no, but this is setting it up. You got to start there. So, what was happening before JFK? You
know, Yeah. there's this affair and all this stuff. Great. Who cares? In my eyes, I don't care. You know, he was a
[ __ ] That doesn't I think he was a good president. But so Mary has ties with Timothy Liry,
which is the big LSD guy. And he was a professor at Harvard doing studies on LSD, you know, the truth serum. But it's
really more about expanding and opening the mind. That truth serum was a joke. Well, no, but people actually used it as
truth term in experiments, I think. Right. Right. So, she had uh basically she had a relationship with Timothy Liry
and she was getting LSD from Timothy Liry and she was administering these turn on events with um you know,
Washington elites. Mhm. and she was trying to get uh the wives of these elites to get turned on,
to open their minds, therefore influencing their men. And she even stated to Timothy Liry multiple times,
if you can get these guys wives and these guys mistresses to get turned on and open up to new
ideas that it could really influence the the whole world. Um, and if you ever want to look up something pretty
interesting, it's uh Timothy Liry wrote about this and his relationship with um Mary Meyer. No, not a sexual
relationship, just a relationship. So, they would go back and forth. When John F. Kennedy was assassinated, she called
to Timothy Liry. She then stated to him they killed him because he knew too much. Yeah, I believe his exact quote is
that she said, "They couldn't control him anymore. He was changing too fast. They've covered everything up."
Right. And really to me a a tell sign of there's some big tells I think that point to the idea that it was this uh a
coup d'eta if you want to call it is this notion that Kennedy was going to pull out of the war and how who does
that affect monetarily and that the government didn't want to do that so therefore we're going to assassinate him
and we're going to take back power. he wasn't going to listen to the people because he got turned on be, you know,
as far as, you know, opened up his mind to the possibility of, hey, war might not be the answer. Okay. So, yeah, maybe
he knows too much. Maybe he's changing. Maybe he they can't control him anymore,
so they assassinate him. That's what she's kind of saying towards Timothy Liry. And I think she was a little
scared, you know, because she was one of the associates that were kind of helping
him open up his mind. And so that happens that happens in ' 63. Now, when you hear about Mary Meyer all
the time, you hear, "Okay, the assassination happened and then Mary knew so much that they killed her." But
that's not the truth because what happened was it was a year later. Yeah. She was killed about 11 months
after uh JFK was assassinated. Yeah. And you have the Warren Commission come out with their report,
just weeks before she's killed. And this to me uh is if you want to go down the conspiracy rabbit hole with
this case, this would be the tell sign because the Warren Commission come out with their reports, their findings. Um,
Lee Harvey Oswald is the lone gunman and she is pretty vocal and pretty public that she does not agree with their
findings. Well, one rumor that was going around as well was that she had actually purchased
the paperback version of the Warren Commission's report and that she was making notations as she was reading it
and highlighting things and probably putting together a case that they were wrong, that their findings were not
exact. Um the cool thing about Mary Pincho Meyer though again she was a society woman. So the people that
surround her were very successful. So there's so many document if you want to dive into this thing there's so many
biographies that came out years after she was killed of people close to her that talk about things going on in her
life that led up to her death. Now some of these can be considered hearsay. Um but you know you have like her
brother-in-law uh Mr. Bradley. He was a very successful guy. He was in charge of
the Washington Post, I believe, later in his life, right? And um you know, he has a biography and
as well as plenty of other people in this case. Now, let's talk about real quick why, you
know, you're talking about Mary Pincho Meyer. Was it a conspiracy? Well, let's pretend we all agree Ray Crump Jr., we
believe the jury, we believe Dovy Roundtree, and he is actually innocent of this crime. Mhm.
So where are some problems with who actually killed Mary Pincho Meyer and and why? And you had mentioned her not
agreeing with the Warren report, right? Okay. And the argument there is that okay, as
far as the session assassination is concerned, how many of those witnesses have mysterious deaths afterwards? And
so that's kind of where they're drawing is anybody that's connected, anybody that has uh different viewpoints,
anybody that has a voice, anybody that can that could change public opinion. There's a lot of people that end up dead
and then that's they're they're lumping her in with that. Yeah. I believe there were like 25 to 30
people on that list and she would have been like 15th or 16th on the list. Now, not all of them were murders. Some of
them were suicides, but uh Right. There was a lot of mysterious. It's enough to talk about, that's for
sure. Well, the other weird thing, too, is that there was a I think a breakin to
her house. Um they were looking for her diary and there was this whole thing that after her death um trying to uh
that people of higher power were trying to get her diary. Yeah. She had told some of her friends,
and I believe it was her uh uh sister, that she believed that people were following her and that she that they
were breaking into her home and possibly wiretapping her phone. Um she even states that one time when she was coming
home that she saw somebody leaving her her home, right? And um and if a lady's making these claims, I
don't think she's, you know, paranoid and just making this stuff up. Well, let's talk about this diary real quick
because there are a whole bunch of stories about this diary. I wanted to include it and give a very factual
opinion of this diary. The problem was when I looked at it through the eyes of four different people reporting on this
diary, they all had different stories. And so I couldn't come up with what was the truth. But the general story is
this, that within 24 hours of her murder, that her friends and her loved ones conspired that they wanted to go to
her home and to her studio, and they wanted to collect her personal things, that being a diary that they suspected
she kept, her letters and her personal papers. Now, when they went to This is Ben
Bradley. He's the And part of this could be like I like I said, she's she's this this is a tough
cookie. I mean, you know, she was having an affair with the president, you know, at one point
and and she talked to, you know, like I said, she talked to uh to Timothy Liry about the different mistresses of people
of power in Washington. Maybe she was having other affairs. Maybe it was just to get this diary to protect her
reputation because, you know, a lady that is single and maybe having uh affairs with married men uh puts a a
damper puts a kind of black cloud over all the positive stuff she was doing, especially during that time period. And
so there there's definitely motive in in that scenario to we want to collect this
stuff uh so so we can kind of protect her name and her reputation. Well, they're saving face, right?
They're they're protecting her name, protecting her family because they believe she was writing down everything
she did and and potentially protecting the Kennedy name as well. They didn't want these things to get
out. Now, her brother-in-law, Ben Bradley, his story, he says that he was part of this group that went to her home
to get these items. Now, when there he says when he gets there, there's a gentleman, his name is James Angleton.
He's a CIA agent, and he is he was either trying to pick the lock to her home or he was already in the home when
they got there. That part of the story is a little unclear. Mhm. While they were there, they found a
diary. And according to Bradley, Angleton said, "You know how we handle these things in the CIA. I can take this
back to headquarters and I'll burn it. I'll dispose of it properly and nobody will ever know what was in this diary."
Well, after the the group of friends talk about it, they decide that that's probably the best thing to do. And
and why is this normal, though? Is it just normal because she was married to a CIA agent?
I think so. And I think it's where they live. I mean, living in the DC area being involved in all of those groups,
right? But if it was just some other white woman even of some power, would the CIA be there going through her
diary? Um, you know, it's unclear why why Angleton was there? But he is a man of
the CIA. He could have said, "I'm investigating this her murder." you know, this is within 24 hours of the
death, you know, so there there's not been somebody convicted of this crime. They could have fallen for that.
Well, they didn't do a good job of con, you know, investigating and convicting anybody.
No, but you need to keep in mind something here, too. They were friends with James Angleton. So, it wasn't like
a stranger show up showed up and was trying to break into the Well, I wanted to see where the How does
this make sense? No, this was this was a man that they knew and they knew that Cord Meyer had
known him and so this was a man that they they trusted. Now, where the problem comes about is there's multiple
again multiple stories with this with this diary. The one being that seems to be the most likely that several people
back up is that they agreed to give the diary to James Angel and he said he was going to burn it at the CIA at at his
office. Right. Right. After he read it slowly. Now, um some other stories about the
diary. Uh, one of them being that one of the friends, a female friend of hers, states that she took the diary and took
it home and disposed of it. Um, another person states that they saw James Angleton in possession of this same
diary 10 to 15 years later after he said that he had destroyed it. Why was he holding on to it? Uh, and there's also
some other reports that state that they found a diary that seemed to contain no information about her personal life at
all regarding Kennedy or drugs or anything of that nature and that they agreed that it was of nothing of
importance and they decided to dispose of it. However, there are people that will point out that there some of these
stories say that the diary was found in her home and other stories say that the diary was found in her studio. So, some
have suspected that maybe one of these diaries was a fake that that somebody had either planted it or it was just
something that was misunderstood to be a diary and wasn't in fact that. Or maybe there's two. I mean, maybe
there's just a di, you know, some people like to keep journal. It's good for me,
you know, mental health. You know, get out a journal, just kind of jot down your thoughts of your day, how you're
feeling, you know, just kind of check in, you know, journal. Wonderful. and then then another journal or another
diary that is more in depth about certain events and certain things more kind of a keeping track of history. And
you're exactly right cuz one of her friends would state that what they were looking for was a journ a diary uh with
personal information with with maybe even potentially top secret information. However, what they had found was more of
a sketchbook of was more of something that you would expect to find in an artist studio or an artist home where it
was just kind of doodles and and things of that like little ideas. Why else could this be a conspiracy
captain? Well, let's go back to that Lieutenant Mitchell. Now, he's the the man that came forward the day after Ray
Crump Jr. was arrested. Yeah, he's the jogger. He's the jogger that claims he jogged by Ray.
And he testifies at trial. Now, on the date that he goes into the police department and says, "Hey, I was there
yesterday and I saw her and I saw him." Uhhuh. He states that his job is he's a lieutenant with the army. Okay. When
they go to trial, he gives a different description of his occupation. He never states that he's with the army. He
states that he's a teacher at Georgetown. I believe mathematics was what he was teaching. Mhm.
Now, there have been several authors that have written about this case. Now, more than one of them have gone back and
done the detective work. Done. Done. Did I say dung? Who knows? That's funny. Well, Lieutenant Mitchell's story might
be a pile of dung because the authors have gone back and more than one have concluded when they contacted the
University of Georgetown that he's never been listed as a as a professor or teacher there ever.
Right. ever, including 1965 when he was at trial stating that that was his occupation.
Very interesting. Well, then who the hell is this Lieutenant Mitchell? Well, the other
and second of all, again, remember we pointed out that in the trial, he's the only one saying that he was there. You
know, Ray Crump Jr. never says he saw this Lieutenant Mitchell jogging. Mary Pincho Meyer is dead. The white couple
never comes forward. They're never identified. They could be not even exist. and the man wearing the Bermuda
shorts. Or they could be people having an affair that don't want to come forward.
Yeah. But what about the man with the Bermuda shorts all by himself? He's never identified or or seen by anybody
else and never comes forward saying that he was down there that day and had seen
anything. Yeah. So, we have the one case with the Jords and now we have the Bermuda
Bermuda shorts. Yeah. We should write songs about this. Uh the other thing, too, is you know the
babushka lady. Mhm. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. I think that's a picture of her.
The picture basically if you look up the JFK assassination, there is this lady that they call the babushka lady.
Mhm. My tongue is getting in the way of my talking today. So, this lady has never been identified,
I believe. And a lot of people believe that Mary Meyer was the babushka lady. And the babushka lady was in Dallas,
Texas on the day that uh JFK was killed. Is that correct? Right. Now, one could dis, you know, if
they're having an affair and we have a letter that was unscent, JFK is saying, "Hey, come visit me here. Come visit me
there." Was she just in the audience of the parade visiting her, you know, lover, right? Lover. Um,
was she the babushka lady? It's interesting. What's interesting to me though is the babushka lady has very
distinct glasses. And if you look up Mary Meyer babushka lady, you can see pictures sidebyside. I'll post that on
Instagram uh true crime garage. That's also on the website too at true crimegar.com.
We did get a bunch of emails of people asking us. They're like, "Well, I know this case is interesting, but I really
want to hear uh you guys go through the JFK assassination." And I thought, "Oh my goodness." Because I mean, West
Memphis 3, I flinched a few times when we decided to do that case cuz it was huge. OJ was a big case. I mean,
we kind of rushed West Memphis 3 a little bit. We could have made that like part six, you know, six parts.
Yeah. Because when we got into it, we thought that three would would more than cover it. And we got into it and we
realized, holy moly. And we kind of had to rush through some stuff in. Can I give you a couple quick
bullet points on my thoughts of JFK and his assassination? Do we got time for that?
I guess. Oh god, you're like opening up this can of worms, you know? No, I just have some questions. Okay,
the here's the questions that I have when I when I think about the assassination and whether Oswald did it
or whether there were other people involved or Oswald was not even involved. You know, there there's some
things that are very questionable. Now we need to keep in mind you had mentioned going you know pulling out of
the war at the time but there was also some things going on within our government that that is of the same
mind. Now keep in mind we were a war economy back then. That was what drove our economy. So yes the government would
most likely want us to stay at war but what was going on as well is we had the cold war with the Russians going on at
the same time. Now, the weird thing here is that the the military and the CIA was
not working handinhand with President Kennedy at the time. President Kennedy was making deals and working on making
treaties with the Russians to to to end the testing of nuclear weapons. And this is not something that the
military wanted to do. In fact, when we had the um the Cuban missile crisis, the
military and the CIA wanted to use this to their advantage to basically start World War II. They wanted to use it as
an excuse to launch nuclear missiles towards Russia and they wanted it to they wanted to use this to invade Cuba
as well. And now Kennedy, I know that we've attacked his personal life quite a bit, but we we should
I just called him a [ __ ] Yeah. that we should stand up for him in the fact of being a good president that
he was seeming to make moves towards peace and he was doing efforts to make moves towards peace. He didn't agree
with firing the nuclear weapons at at Russia. He did not agree with going in and trying to evade invade Cuba. Uh so
he was doing things that they didn't agree with this and it's weird when you see the military and the president not
working together in my opinion. Yeah. Well, that's I mean that's the you know shows motivation of why they would
want a coup d'eta. And there's another person you should look up and this is Tony Shyman and her
father was Joe Shyman. Now it's hard to figure out exactly what his job was. I believe that he had worked for the
Secret Service, but there's many people that bring him up and say that, you know, if you follow him, this Joe Shyman
enough that he seems to work in whatever branch of the military or whatever branch for our government that is uh
convenient at the time. You know, sometimes he's listed as having been in the Air Force. Sometimes he's listed as
being FBI man or CIA or Secret Service now. So, he's kind of a guy that seems to move around and be a little shifty.
But one thing she said about her father that that she has said time and time again that that always stands out in my
mind was that she she said that 6 months before Kennedy was assassinated that her
father had told her that Lyndon Johnson had come to him and asked for more security and this would be more security
than the president was receiving. and he just kind of wanted to mention that to his daughter at the time because he
found it to be a very strange request. He also thought it to be a very uh foreshadowing request.
Yeah. I mean, hindsight's 2020, I guess. I don't know. I don't want to get into it too much because I I hope that we
cover it sometime and actually like actually dive into it. Maybe next November. Yeah. Yeah. That's a we're setting up a
giant task. Anyways, is was she a part of was her murder a conspiracy? Um, I don't know and I
wouldn't put it past uh anybody. To me, there is no like, you know, direct red flag of all this is a conspiracy. I
think that she has ties to Timothy Liry that are interesting. She has obviously ties to the CIA that are interesting
with her ex-husband. She has ties to JFK being one his neighbor, being his friend, being somebody that, you know,
look, I keep saying possibly had an affair because other than people going, "Yeah, we think that happened." There's
not much proof. And, you know, I I don't think I I think it's irresponsible just
to say, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, she was definitely having You're right. It's not 100% proof
positive." But Well, and what they claim is this unscent letter is the proof. Well, it's
unscent. It would be different if it was sent. Um, but like I said, it's again, it's a shitty love letter. It's a booty
call letter is what it is. But there does seem to be more people inside that circle saying that there was an
affair between the two than are saying there was not. Yeah. But that what I'm saying is you
have all these things tying that really kind of seem like, oh, yes, definitely there's some conspiracy. And normally
I'm so quick to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon. This one, there's just nothing that hooks me to go, this is
definitively something weird going on. This is just a lot of kind of circles that she run in
um the circles that she ran with. It's odd. So, but I think anybody that ran in those circles would think possibly this
could be a conspiracy. Well, and I think if you want to I I mean this Lieutenant
William Mitchell is a big red flag for me. He's there seems to be a lot of problems with the things he said.
There's a lot of problems with his career. Now, there's even one author that has said that he believes that
Mitchell was the one that that in fact murdered Mary Pincho Meyer and he's worked to build a case against him all
these years later. And this has been taking place within the past few years. Will it ever become a a trial? Will he
ever be brought up on those charges? Probably not. This man is in his 70s by now, and he's led a very shadowy
uh mysterious life. Um was was he simply just not there that day is what I wonder. Was he just coming
forward and and regurgitating what he heard in the read in the newspaper and and he's backing up this story so that
they have a fall guy, right? or what or was he paid, you know, to come forward or was he paid to hire a
hit on her and then they thought there was a possibility that maybe he was seen so they wanted him come who who knows
there's a bunch of whatifs. The sad thing is that you know Mary Meyer was a you know a very smart, intelligent,
creative woman. She was a mother. Um you know she overcame a lot of adversities in her life. She seemed to be such a
very positive person, a positive influence on other people in her life and she lost her life for whatever
reason. And that's the point and that's and that's the sad thing. The other sad thing to me, the other thing, the
upsetting thing about this to me is that the day that that trial started in 1965
against Ray Crump Jr. for the murder of Mary Pincho Meyer, the investigation stopped. And even when he was acquitted
and he walked out of that courtroom a free man, they never they didn't investigate this crime anymore. They
just let it be. They just walked away from it and said, "You know what? We got a bad verdict and this guy's absolutely
guilty." And that's wrong. That's wrong. This should be It's I'm sure it's considered
legally an open case, but not in the opinion of the investigators back then, and I'm sure not nowadays. Well, I mean,
you see this h I mean, even with like the West Memphis 3 when you give the you know, you give them a plea deal, they
get out of jail, and then they go, "Well, no, these guys are still guilty. We still believe they're guilty." Well,
if you still believe they're guilty, then why are you letting them out on the street? If you still believe those guys
murdered 8year-old children, why are you letting them out on the street? You're stating that so you don't have to do the
work. Yeah. And and and it's you can't have it both ways. Well, it's it's very sad because
again, not only do you have the victim, but you have the victim's family that has no answers. All right. I hope you
guys enjoyed this episode. I got a little recommended reading for you. Yeah, I mean, that's what we're getting
to. Well, thank you. Uh, this week's recommended reading, The Mammoth. Sorry, The Mammoth. The Mammoth Book of
Coverups. This is by John E. Lewis. The 100 most disturbing conspiracies of all time. I recommend picking this up. This
is kind of like the Guinness book of conspiracies, if you will. Uh, this is covering cases like the
assassination of JFK, things like the Da Vinci Code, Area 51, the death of Princess Diana, and the Illuminati. You
like to talk about the Illuminati. Uh, and of course, many, many more. There's the 100 most disturbing cases and
conspiracies of all time, the Mammoth Book of Coverups by John E. Lewis. Go to our website true crimegar.com. Click on
the recommended page. That's on there as well as the book that we recommended last week, Mary's Mosaic.
And like always, you can follow us at true crimegar.com. Go to the website, sign up on the mailing list. Make sure
you subscribe to the show. Make sure you tell a friend and also social media, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, all that
stuff at True Crime Garage. And until next week, be good, be kind, and don't litter.
[Music]

Mary Pinchot Meyer /// Part 2 /// 63

Truecrimegarage.com

October 12, 1964 Mary Pinchot Meyer went out for her usual midday stroll to get some fresh air and maybe a little inspiration. While out walking near the C & O canal Mary was attacked. She was shot twice, died practically instantly and left for someone to find. Police make an arrest and the trial is set. But do they have the right guy? Or was Mary killed by some shadowy agency because of an affair with the late President Kennedy? This week in the garage we continue to look at the unsolved murder of Mary Pinchot Meyer. Was Mary's murder a hit and cover-up put together by an organized group like the C.I.A. or was it a random act of violence committed by a loner? Hmmm, that's funny. Isn't that the same question we ask ourselves about John Kennedy's murder?

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Brief Summary

Mary Pincho Meyer was murdered in 1964; Raymond Crump Jr. was acquitted, leaving the case unresolved and raising conspiracy theories.

Key points

Mary Pincho Meyer Murder Case. The case of Mary Pincho Meyer unfolds, revealing connections to JFK and a shocking murder.
Dovy Roundtree Takes the Case. Defense attorney Dovy Roundtree agrees to represent Ray Crump Jr. for just $1, believing in his innocence.
The Prosecution's Plan. The prosecution argues that Mary Pincho Meyer was attacked, possibly during a robbery gone wrong. They suggest that Ray Crump Jr. shot her to prevent identification.
Witness Testimony. Officer John Warner apprehends Ray Crump Jr. and notes inconsistencies in his story about fishing. Crump's injuries raise further questions about his alibi.
Eyewitness Accounts. Lieutenant Mitchell claims to have seen a man matching Ray Crump Jr.'s description near the crime scene, but his testimony raises doubts.
Dovy Roundtree's Strategy. Dovy Roundtree decides not to call Ray Crump Jr. to the stand after hearing the prosecution's confidence.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

She had frequented the White House often.

Discussion about Mary Meyer's relationship with JFK.

7:25WatchJul 7, 2025

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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