The Staircase /// Part 2 /// 244 | Forensic Files

when it comes to Quality sleep Ashley has you covered with top mattress brands at winning prices and with special
financing options available you can snooze now and pay later plus your mattress purchase helps give the gift of
better sleep to children in need and US Special Operations forces visit your local Ashley store or shop online today
and make every snooze count financing is subject to credit approval C store or ashley.com for d details at Consumer
Cellular you get the same exact coverage as the largest carriers but for up to half the cost same thing up to half the
cost up to half the cost for the same thing 50% the money for 100% the same thing I hope I'm making myself clear
Consumer Cellular when Freedom calls we're here to answer call us at 1888 Freedom half the cost savings based on
cost of consumer cellular single line 5 GB data plan with unlimited talk and text compared to lowest cost single line
postpaid unlimited talk text and data plan offered by T-Mobile Verizon May [Music]
2023 [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always as a man that tells me you should always go to other people's
funerals otherwise they won't come to yours he is the captain and sometimes I don't even know the bloke it's good to
be seen it's good to see see you thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend tonight we are drinking Secret
Stairs by Trillium Brewing Company garage grade 4 and a/4 bottle caps out of five Secret Stairs is trilliums
signature style it's bold balanced and very satisfying it's not too sweet and there's a bitter cocoa hint in there
which I love and this wonderful beer was brought to us by these good folks right
here first up we have have Ally and Stacy q and Parts Unknown next we have Sarah and beautiful Cleveland
believeland Ohio the big cheers mates down under to Emma and bod and bisbing Australia and we have rosand in San
Antonio and last but not least Hawks and doves in Raleigh North Carolina thanks everybody for your help with this week's
shows if you want to help us out with the beer run for next week's show go to True Crim
garage.com and while you're there check out our blog and check out the beautiful
beautiful store Page yeah check out the store Page we have team Nick shirts we had some leftovers so we put those on
sale no they're awesome they're not is leftovers a bad bad word uh we had some leftovers and we have new team captain
v-neck in stock people ask for them we haven't had them in stock for about a year so they're back in stock get one
today all right Captain everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true
[Music] crime during the trial of Kathleen Peterson's death and the attempted prosecution of her husband Michael
Peterson the prosecution would call into question Elizabeth ratliff's death now on February 18th 20
2003 Elizabeth ratliff's two daughters Margaret and Martha now Michael Peterson's legal Wards gave the Durham
District Attorney's Office permission to exume their mother's body from her Texas
grave at first they were reluctant to allow this but they say they want to clear Michael Peterson's name they were
two and one years old at the time that Elizabeth died Elizabeth Ratliff was found dead November 27th 1985 she was 43
years old when Elizabeth's husband died Michael Peterson would come over to visit her every evening after dinner
Peterson and Friends maintained that their friendship was purely platonic often he would help her with
the dishes or read to ratliff's two young daughters before returning home Elizabeth Ratliff was found tilted
sideways at the bottom of a wooden staircase inside her home German officials concluded at the time that
Elizabeth la Ratliff died of an apparent stroke and a criminal investigation was
never conducted reports that she was suffering severe persistent headaches in the weeks leading up to her death were
also known the coroner determined that the hemorrhaging resulted in immediate death followed by Ratliff falling down
the stairs after collapsing the Petersons had dinner with Elizabeth Ratliff and her daughters and Michael
Peterson had stayed that night to help Ratliff put the kids to bed before going home mhm the children's Nanny Barbara
discovered Elizabeth's body when she arrived the next morning at the home yeah roughly about 11: a.m. Michael
Peterson was the last known person to see her alive now before Michael Peterson's trial the Durham North
Carolina court ordered the Exum of Elizabeth ratas embalmed body buried in Texas for a second autopsy
uh the body was then transported from Texas to Durham the Durham medical examiner found sufficient evidence to
drawn from the results of the second autopsy along with new witness statements describing the scene to
overturn the earlier findings and list Elizabeth ratliff's cause of death as a homicide State medical examiners report
states that Elizabeth Ratliff died of blunt force trauma to the Head the autopsy reported several lacerations and
fractures to the skull now the prosecution declined to accuse Michael Peterson of Elizabeth ratliff's death
but introduced the death into the trial as an incident giving Michael Peterson the idea of how to fake Kathleen
Peterson's accident now Regina green an old family friend of Michael Peterson's pointed out in the staircase miniseries
how much Elizabeth Ratliff and Peterson's wife looked alike so let me get this straight they do one autopsy at
the time of her death they say that she had a stroke then she fell down the stairs mhm that would probably be the
cause her falling down the stairs would be the cause of the trauma to the Head then they dig her up they do a new exam
and then they say there's blunt force trauma and that is the reason why she died yes and then on top of that now we
have a a friend saying isn't it strange how much she looked like his wife yes which wife the wife at
the time I believe that she was talking about Kathleen Peterson who he's later being accused of killing mhm and what's
interesting to me there is I saw I'm not going to lie to you man I saw similarities actually to the point
somebody put on one website a a side by side picture of the two and I didn't know in advance that I was going to be
looking at a sidebyside picture of two different people I almost thought it was just Kathleen Peterson at two different
points in her life maybe with a slightly different hairstyle or you know at one event dressed otherwise you know all
white people look the same so well it's a problem and so the thing is to me they
in those two pictures that I saw they could pass as sisters right very very much like one another now regarding what
does it mean though I don't know that it means I don't know that it means anything but the thing is here's here's
the interesting thing that I find here is this is kind of a reversal of what the defense would do so the defense all
along in this trial is let letting the prosecution point out to you something that they say is suspicious and when
they present it to you on the surface it appears to be just that suspicious then
when the defense comes in gives you some more information questions some of that
suspicious Behavior or suspicious evidence then you're left going well it doesn't seem so suspicious at all they
basically question everything they're throwing everything at the wall the defense to see what s sticks to see if
any of the jury or all of the jury can go you know what we have plenty of reason to doubt this man's
guilt here we have the prosecution doing the opposite you know they're they're you fighting fire with fire essentially
they're stating look we have this woman that died and he was she was very close to Michael Peterson died almost in the
same way and we're going to exume her body he's the last person to see her he's the last person to see her she's
found at the bottom of a staircase and we're going to exume her body and then we're going to tell you that there were
so many similarities in these two that kind of they're not saying this directly but what the seed that they are planting
in all of these people in my opinion to see if the tree grows is that well if you can believe that he killed one of
them then maybe you have to believe that he killed both of them yeah the tricky thing here is I believe the initial
autopsy found that Ratcliffe died in the morning so where he would have saw her at night
it would have been probably 11:00 p.m. before he left that they believe that she actually died in the morning M and
he would have an alibi at the time and that would The Alibi would be his current wife at that time well I tell
you what man watching the staircase the first time and I do have to um point out
something here it I don't remember when but a while back we did um some we recommended some
docu uh docu series some true crime documentaries to watch to our audience and we did come Under Fire a little bit
because we didn't mention the staircase now it well the time I haven't watched it so you hadn't watched it and at the
time for me I watched it when it came out on HBO the first time I believe it was HBO and it was so many years before
that we put that list together I didn't I wouldn't say I forgot about it but I think I forgot how good it was how good
the um documentary was and so it didn't make my list for those reasons but I do recall when they
brought up this whole Elizabeth Ratcliffe thing when I watched it the first time and they're like we have two
women close to this individual that died in almost the same manner 16 years apart
well [ __ ] that did it for me Captain well the documentary is called the staircase now we have two women that
died in the staircase so yeah first of all I should get a championship belt because you know we only have a week to
work on these cases I think I put out um Wednesday's show put it out last Wednesday went home had lunch started
binging the staircase I was done with the staircase by Thursday MH I mean that's like a record
I should get a championship belt for a guy that can sit on the couch and watch 14 hours of a true crime documentary and
I was all by myself I'm going to start taking applications for people that want to watch documentaries with me well like
I said the first time I watched it I thought for me that was like all right that TI me over the edge this guy's
guilty okay at first I was like yes this guy he was the last person to see the one lady she's dead on a staircase he's
the last person to see his wife she's dead on a staircase yeah not good the problem again that I
have with it is based off the evidence of the first case one she had severe not just kind of headaches she had severe
headaches she was going to go see a specialist or see a specialist again yeah I think because of this was that
scheduled for that week or it was scheduled for very shortly before she died and and the right and the initial
autopsy which the second autopsy they would not have the brain right right so they could not see
the hammering so you can tell me all you want about uh fractures or brain bruising or whatever you want to say but
you don't have all the information and so the first one saw severe brain swelling which could also cause brain
bruising which heck for all you the fractures probably came from falling down the steps but the thing that I have
a hard time with is when there there was no rig mortis therefore meaning that when everybody it wasn't first of all
Michael Peterson didn't find her somebody else found her the nanny founder he didn't call 911 and say oh my
God it's not the same scenario right the nan Nanny founder he came over to help everybody else was helping there was a
bunch of people there a bunch of eyewitnesses and they moved the body and there was no rig of
Morse and so uh and again then if you're going to you're a writer you're a creative person you're a
known liar if you really wanted to kill your wife are you going to do so in the same
manner right that you possibly killed somebody before okay well but again that goes back to
the whole thought for me of premeditation right so if your argument as the state's case would be that he in
a fit of rage during the course of an argument lost his Scruples and killed his wife Kathleen Peterson you would
also have to argue that if you believe that Elizabeth Ratliff in 1985 was as Beat to Death as well that that would be
a similar circumstance where he lost it he attacked her and beat her to death both of those situations do not imply
premeditation both of those imply that it was a spur of the moment attack it was Heat of the Moment so
again but the but the other issue here though is if we have somebody that was quote unquote Beat to Death that has
fractures brain bruising and you're going to tell me that this individual it's it's not like he's a a yeah he's a
rider he's not a huge man but in both cases you should see skull F fractures you should see brain bruising
you do not see that in both cases and also in the first case with rackliffe they think that she actually fell from
higher up on the steps right so if she falls higher up on the steps there's more chances that
she's going to have uh fractures in her skull because of the fall and and then in um Kathleen's case
falling not as far down so therefore you want to have the fractures so I guess the thing that's lost on me because the
prosecution didn't they weren't able to point this out because again they're not
going to accuse Michael Peterson of Elizabeth ratcliff's death but the thing that's lost on me is is what are you
what are you trying to tell me that this means are you trying to tell me that it
happened once so and he did it and therefore he's capable okay I get that but don't try to tell me that it
happened once it was not premeditated then he kills his second wife it's not premeditated and that that means he knew
how to do it exactly this way because he didn't plan to kill the first person this way right you know so I guess that
portion is lost on me the interesting thing here though Captain I believe that they an attempt to try to tie these
together and to point out that Michael Peterson if you believe he killed one then you must believe he killed both m
is that they tried to point out I think it was 17 points of similarity between the two
incidents I would argue that if you can find 17 things that were the same you could find a minimum of 17 things that
were different right if not many many more it wasn't his wife the the two I think the two is it wasn't his house
right he didn't call 911 he didn't have any evidence of blood on him one case has fractures one doesn't one has brain
bruising one doesn't one has brain hemorrhaging one doesn't one the person that falls down the steps has a history
or a believed um uh physical condition condition one doesn't but one we believe is intoxicated and
also probably and the the other thing too is if you look at it in one case we have blood some kind
of blood evidence outside of the house one where we don't really know if we have any blood evidence other than in
the staircase mhm so I think it's when we say eyewitness statements uh regarding the scene had
changed as well in Elizabeth rat ratcliff's death or the account of what could have happened M really all we have
is we have one person who claims to have seen Michael Peterson quote unquote fleeing the scene that night well first
of all uh you would you would have seen him leaving mhm can you can you imply his intentions of and in the manner that
he's leaving what maybe he's in a hurry to get home from any number of reasons so that and then the similarities the 17
similarities which again I think for every similarity you could point out a difference if not a big difference right
and the motive would be that his friend had some money and that therefore he would assume that the money would have
been left to him uh he probably knew at some point that if something did happen to her he was going to become the
guardian of her children but you got to be pretty sick to be like I'm going to murder you then I'm going to take your
money and I'm going to to raise your kids yeah that's it's just a stretch well and these girls grew up to love him
it's not like they grew up in there always this Shadow of Doubt that oh he killed our mother you know there's I
mean you got to be a pretty big psychopath to not a psychopath that wouldn't be the correct term but you get
you got to be pretty nuts to be able to kill somebody raise their kids and loving
home and and have them be very intelligent be very kind respectful be upstanding
citizens well I had somebody tell me that because he adopted the two girls that is proof to them that he didn't
kill their mother I can see that side of the coin the this the opposite nothing right the opposite side of the coin
which I would actually present is maybe he did kill their mother and and him taking care of the children is a sign of
remorse that he felt bad for he did something in a split second he can't take it back but what he can do is make
sure that these kids are raised in a loving home but what I do point out again is we don't have these daughters
going yeah he was a violent father right you know we don't have any of that that
could have happened behind closed doors we don't know but we we don't have anybody saying that we don't have any
friends saying that we don't family MERS saying that great guy he's a great father mhm and and there's evidence of
that in the documentary just the way hea he interacts with his kids more so and spoiler alert more so before he
goes to jail right so um I think afterwards I think he's definitely different but obviously he's older he
spent time in prison he's slowed down which is obvious and you know what I think you
are 100% spoton regarding this incident of Elizabeth ratcliff's death and then Kathleen Peterson's death is the medical
examiner the first autopsy and then 16 is that right 16 or roughly 17 or 18 years later the
second autopsy takes place on Elizabeth Ratliff right and so what you are spot on in saying is that you are not
examining the same set of evidence 16 17 years later right in my opinion and I think that I well you're not just
as a fact and I have a hard time believing that you can completely reverse everything that was believed to
have been found in the first autopsy 16 17 years later when you're not looking at the same same piece of evidence hold
on let me go through my notes real quick looks like the examiner was FY Malik oh oh that's why that's why they
reversed it old FY Malik it was an olar no so now we're at the point are we at the point now that he
gets tried and he is found guilty well yeah real quick I want to kind of put my my final stamp on my final thought
regarding Elizabeth Ratcliffe okay where at first when I was watching the staircase many years ago when it first
came out I jumped off of the couch and I went that's it he did it he's guilty he's guilty I got him POS I'm done you
sex son of a [ __ ] and now years later having looked at it under a different light under a different microscope and
putting together information for this week's case I didn't realize back then that it was ruled that she had a stroke
and so I look at it now and I go I I can't say with 100% certainty that he didn't kill her but I can say
with about 99% I feel pretty strong that he didn't kill Elizabeth Ratcliffe and I
think it has no bearing on if or not he killed Kathleen Peterson I agree I also think that it comes down to there's
evidence of a stroke or they believe there was a stroke Heming of the brain there is a lot of skull fractures I
believe that happened from her falling down the steps and I think the lack of riam mortis and the the idea that there
was so many eyewitnesses that found her body saw how he was reacting and then taking her daughters and raising her um
again as no bearing on whether he killed his wife or not well after more than three and a half months of trial Captain
the jury would finally decide the fate of Michael Peterson now among the jurors we had an accountant a correctional
officer two retail salese a Shipping Coordinator two computer operation Specialists and a telecommunications
analyst and three nurses so two people study computer okay they originally took a vote to see where
everyone stood and it turned out that they were pretty much divided four guilty four people stating he's guilty
three stating not guilty and five undecided they went over the case again after hours of debate they kept coming
back to one single exhibit the autopsy photos of the back of Kathleen Peterson's head a juror contacted after
the trial noted that the jury dismissed the idea of the blowpoke as the murder Weapon by and large the jurors were
swayed by the amount of blood Kathleen lost and the number of lacerations which indicated to them it could not have been
an accident so on October 10th 2003 a Durham County jury found Michael Peterson guilty of the murder of
Kathleen Peterson he was sentenced to life and prison without the possibility of parole denial of parole requires
premeditation despite the jury accepting the murder was a quote spur of the- moment crime they also found it was
premeditated one juror explained premeditated meant not only planning hours or days ahead but could also mean
planning in seconds in the seconds before committing a spur of the moment [Music]
crime [Music] this show is sponsored by better help do you look forward to the holidays maybe
you struggle with seasonal Blues this time of year can be a lot and it's natural to feel some sadness or even
anxiety about it but adding something new and positive to your life can counteract some of those feelings
therapy can be a bright spot something to look for forward to to make you feel grounded and to give you the tools to
manage everything going on if you're thinking of starting therapy give better help a try it's entirely online designed
to be convenient flexible and suited to your schedule just fill out a brief questionaire to get matched with a
licensed therapist and switch therapist at any time for no additional charge find your bright spot this season with
betterhelp visit betterhelp.com garag toay to get 10% off your first month that's betterhelp
hp.com major phone carriers make you sign contracts with rigid data plans to trap you into a kind of forced phogy
sounds pretty insecure if you ask me at Consumer Cellular we believe in a more consensual and healthy form of phogy
free of contracts and more flexible to your data needs this way you stick around not because we force you to with
contracts and fees but because you love our phone plans like ardently love our phone plans monogamously Consumer
Cellular when Freedom calls we're here to answer call us at 1888 Freedom Angie's List is now Angie and
we've heard a lot of theories about why I thought it was an Eco move fewer worse
less paper no it was so you could say it faster no it's to be more iconic must be
a tech thing but those aren't quite right it's because now you can compare upfront prices book a service instantly
and even get your project handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us so much more than just a list
get started at angie.com that's a ngi or download the app [Music] today all right cheers mates cheers to
you Captain hot in the garage some switching over to proper 12 whiskey well I tell you what so we this is the point
in the show where we have to kind of speed drink whiskey we have to speed through a couple of things because this
part is necessary to report but there's a lot of minutia there's a lot of dry boring stuff that takes place over the
course of several years to get to the final result so we're going to give you the short of it the quick we're going to
give you the quick and dirty version okay we're going to give the quickie so remember the prosecution had a blood
spatter expert who gave testimony against Michael Peterson at his trial well that guy was Dwayne dver and Dever
Dever he is a Dever well dver was fired from the SBI don't be a Dever in January
of 2011 after an independent audit of the agency found he had falsely represented
evidence in in 34 cases dver as we stated testified in the 2003 Michael Peterson trial so this is going to cause
a big problem for the prosecution and for the conviction of Michael Peterson yeah and there was actually jury members
that came forward saying a lot of their turning from a not- guilty to guilty was
based off of this guy's testimony correct so we have all these Court proceedings that take place that are
going to challenge the Court's ruling the jury's ruling that he should be convicted and sent to life in prison
without the possibility of parole they're basically asking for it to be overturned for the conviction to be
overturned in turn the judge is going to State well we probably should just have
a new trial right we should we could get rid of this evidence we could reexamine
what can be allowed at the new trial and we should just go from there so like with any situation or most
situations they're going to allow Michael Peterson to be released from Durham County Jail on a $300,000 bail
and placed under house house arrest with a tracking anklet in while he waits for
this new trial to take place right so again there's more fighting of whether there should be a trial can we just get
this dismissed or no there should be a new trial on November 14th 20 16 a new trial was scheduled to begin on May 8th
of 2017 however news reports in February of 2017 indicated that a resolution had
been negotiated by Peterson's defense and the Durham County DA yeah and let's let's back this up a little bit I I just
want to they had a bunch of hearings uh whether to not let certain things in and
basically Peterson got his ass handed to him on the last hearing and and so they didn't want to
try to make a deal with the da or didn't think it was time to ask for a deal but oddly the da came after him and
said hey we'd like to offer you this deal so then then it was up to him to take that deal so what took place then
was in February of 2017 Michael Peterson entered an offered plea a guilty plea whereby the defendant asserts his
innocent M innocence but admits that sufficient evidence exists to convict him of the offense this was a uh plea to
involuntary I'm sorry voluntary manslaughter of Kathleen Peterson the judge sentenced him to a maximum of 86
86 months in prison with credit for time served so what does this mean this means
that Michael says yes I'm guilty yes yes the time that I served already is warranted
meaning I can't sue the state for putting me in jail it's also but he's also stating I didn't do this MH so it's
off the Record stating I didn't do this yes I but I well no I think it's on the record I mean they they they they make
the deal but they get to make a statement and so I mean I I just you know this is a way
this is difficult because I don't think Michael Peterson wanted to take this deal uh but at the same time he's
getting older so he's going to go through another 2 and 1 half year trial MH uh I don't think it would have been
as long of a trial as the last one mhm but so that becomes difficult and he and then your whole family has supported you
and I I believe one of his daughters actually said if we take this deal it's almost like we did all this for nothing
right and and I believe that's how you would feel I think on on his standpoint too I think
the other thing you have to because you wonder the psyche of why they're taking this deal I think one he knew
that if he's innocent that Injustice was done before and but if but whether or not
he's innocent or guilty he still might go to jail for the second time and he'd go away for life
and he would you know so he's been in jail for all these years he gets out I think there there becomes a bigger fear
of ever wanting to go back in well he's what 70 years old now roughly well and also the money he doesn't have as much
money so if any where is he going to get this money to pay for Good attorneys and
his attorney that he paid pretty good money the first time his last name is Rudolph yeah he's getting to the point
where he's like I can try to help you but you don't have the financial means to pay me not only that I think at this
point Rudolph was in a different city um so it probably got difficult for him to
travel in and out cost more money right and if you're not getting paid what you should get paid I totally understand I
think you look I'll just say I watched the documentary when I heard that there was
two women that were dead similar circumstances I was like okay well that seems fishy and then I'm
watching the trial and yes the documentary is from the defense standpoint so you get to see more of
that but when it came time to read the verdict the initial verdict and they said guilty I was like
what and now this is a pretty popular documentary but I just never seen it I mean I was shocked like not saying that
I think that he's innocent or guilty what I'm stating is I didn't think the state proved their point but again
you're watching in a documentary from the defense Point there's so many things that are left out of these documentaries
if you're watching something like uh if let's say you're watching a making a murder and you can say that somebody's
guilty or innocent based on just that documentary it's a documentary there a lot of it is informative but a lot of it
is skewed is skewed and it's just like it's just like when people say to me uh when they talk about the Adon sad case
whether they say he's guilty or innocent and I go what information have you looked up I listen to serial it doesn't
start there that's just one person's perception of that that's just one telling of the case so I think in this
case it becomes difficult because they show so much of the defense that you start almost siding with him not saying
that he's innocent or guilty but you you're saying that they're putting on a good enough defense that they should say
not guilty I agree I absolutely agree I don't think that the prosecution put together that great of a case actually
when I looked at the evidence and the the evidence that they presented in the light that they presented it I found it
difficult for me to un I understand their theory that there's an argument I think there are things that point to
that being very plausible and that at some point he killed her the problem is where you can't push me over the top to
saying that he's guilty is they're a little unclear and a little weird about the actual cause of death and they're
100% weird and uncertain of the time of death and that for me didn't put together that great of a case I think
that if they had not dropped the ball on those items they could have probably persuaded me to state that he's guilt
Beyond A Reasonable Doubt but but the thing is I think what they relied on and it's got to be obvious to
so many people they think or thought and rightfully so they were successful in this that look if we put together a case
that states that we think that he killed her and this is why and this is how it happened we don't have to prove that so
much as that we can prove he's bisexual he was going out outside of the marriage
whether she knew or not um we can prove that somebody close to him died in a similar way 17 years ago and we have a
blood spatter expert who's going to say this was a homicide everything that I see at the crime scene tells me she was
beat to death and I think that they knew that that was those three things were too they were too big of Boulders for
for the jury to get over and it was going to completely leave them back to a guilty verdict at some point yeah I
think simply their thought was we just have to prove that this was not an accident and then they'll find him
guilty right so let's get to a theory so again I just watched this last week if you haven't watched it you got to watch
it I thought it was pretty good uh the new episodes they added to it I everybody said oh they're a little
lackluster you get to kind of see what happen that you know he takes the plea deal and that's it that's the end of it
um but they're kind of wasted episodes I really think they could have condensed it down more and um but I thought it was
a pretty good documentary but then uh we were talking on the phone last week and
he said well what about the ow Theory yeah and I was like wait a second can we can't talk about you because I
haven't I haven't done any research on it so get let's get into the ow Theory well like I said I have a problem
stating that Michael Peterson's innocent um I can't say that 100% And but I also
can't say that he's guilty 100% in my mind but then you add the AL Theory into this and it it throws everything it
throws everything for me because it's interesting it's interesting so the theory is that Kathleen Peterson's death
um was caused by an attack by an ow outside this actually was a theory that one of their neighbors came up with yeah
so that she was attacked by an owl outside of her home in the front of the house remember there was a blood droplet
or two found on the walkway and then we have a small blood smear on the front door M this is her blood so what was
pointed out the AL theory was raised by Durham attorney T Lawrence Pard he's a neighbor of the Petersons who was not
involved in the case but had been following the details of the case he approached the police police suggesting
that an owl might have been responsible after reading the North Carolina State Bureau of
Investigation evidence list and finding a feather listed on the evidence list now Peterson's attorneys had determined
that the SBI crime lab report listed a microscopic owl feather and a wooden sliver from a tree limb entangled in a
clump of hair that had been pulled out of by The Roots found clutched in Kathleen's left hand a reexamination of
the hair in September of 2008 had found two more microscopic owl feathers okay so we have these microscopic owl
feathers now you know let's so we're not spending three hours on this one it could be from an owl the other thing
that possibly is they if they have certain types of feather pillows that this could be the reason why they would
find a microscopic fiber of a owl feather in her hair correct so but you're talking
about the the branch in her hand so there was an ow feather and um a a basically like a little Splinter of a
piece of wood that would have come from a tree outside of the home and this was found these items were found in the hair
that had been pulled out from the root of her scalp that was later found in her hand
clutched in her hand she was holding her hair she was holding portions of her hair okay so
one the idea at first when I hear this idea I think this is ridiculous because I'm
starting to think that she's walking into her house she gets into the staircase and then she's attacked by an
owl and that's what I thought it was and my idea was then wouldn't the owl after
the owl attacked her wouldn't the owl leave more evidence that the owl was in the house but this theory is is actually
that she was attacked by an now out front out front away from Michael Peterson if this went down the way that
they think she would have been in front of the house he would have been backed by the pool and he we've already
determined the the size of their yard their property and their home it was proven that at certain points from that
property and from that home if you're in one area you can't hear somebody screaming in another area yeah and and
again now let's let's put this in perspective when people see the Lasher okay when people see the lacerations on
her head right they start assuming that those were made by an now now that's kind of what the AL theory is but that's
where you'd be a dummy because if you actually saw lacerations that were put onto female's heads male's heads any
kind of laceration that was made by an owl her lacerations were Ines long mhm these are centim these are tiny
lacerations that are made by an ow now there's zero deaths by Owl attacks a year zero right so but here's where you
have to put this in perspective again I thought the AL theory was ridiculous she's
outside she has attacked by an owl a typical attack a couple small lacerations on her face that nobody can
explain not any examiner can explain the little tiny lacerations on her forehead you can't explain the the
feather other than maybe a pillow and you can't explain the little Splinter of wood that's in her hair so Al attacks
her leaves a couple marks she's disoriented she's drunk she's on volume she then decides I got to get in the
house I leave the blood outside and on the door I need I'm going to go upstairs right when you go to go upstairs you're
bleed in a little bit but you're still intoxicated and then you fall mhm and then the Falls that were determined by
the defense eyewitness or not eyewitness but the expert witness um with the biomechanics then all that stuff makes
sense MH and then it also makes sense why she's holding piece of her hair so that's to me would make the ow
the owl Theory Mak sense yeah yeah the theory the way that that I understand it is that look it's a barred owl um and
apparently these attacks I've been told are not uncommon in that area and that there were these types of ows located on
their property or near their property there were many people in the area that had stated that they had some kind of
encounter with a Bard owl before some of them saying they had even been attacked
now under this Theory Kathleen's attack by this owl would be a little more violent than traditional um meaning that
they think that if she somehow encountered this owl that the owl came became entangled in her hair and that
she would have reached up naturally reached up behind her to try to defend her self and at which the owl could not
get away is not deliberately clawing her but basically clawing the back of her head and the the contusions or the cuts
on the front of her head on her forehead and I believe just below her eye would have been the beak of the owl so picture
the talons the feet of the owl on the back of the head she's reaching up toward the ow and then the owl is
bending forward and trying to defend it s pecking her in the front of the the face right and so therefore at some
point they break up you know the owl gets away she goes running inside naturally leaving a little bit of blood
along the way and then the injury is so great that she loses her footing or Falls backwards on the stairs as you had
said you know what's weird about this though Captain for me is that I feel like this while on the surface seem like
a crazy Theory mhm I don't think I can discredit it 100% it it it seems plausible seems something that that's
possible well the the thing in this case is you have to explain things you have to explain why there's blood droplets on
the front porch why there's blood on the front door you have to explain that and
this Theory explains that it does and it also explains why she has a chunk of her
hair in her hand right because if that was entangled I but again I think you would
find more evidence of an owl if she was really that wrapped up and that entangled because we still the the other
thing too is we still have those impact marks that's science you have to explain
those impact marks on the frame the doorframe so well she could have still hit Those
portions right as she fell as a result of of an owl attack but where I have an issue with this Theory not to say that
it didn't happen the problem with it is there wasn't there wasn't really a chance to
prove this Theory or disprove this theory meaning what I mean by that is it wasn't until years later that somebody
came up with this Theory the defense never came up with this Theory they thought like you said that maybe that
feather came from a a down comforter or a down pillow well and actually the his new defense team actually looked into
this Theory and they thought there's just too many holes in holes in the theory for us to even use it as a
defense okay so and that's you know yes we're into True Crime we know a lot of stuff but you think his lawyers
would be the ones to tell you hey there's too many holes in this this Theory so we couldn't use it well the
other thing too even if it didn't come from a pillow or a comforter or something like that there was already in
inside the home what about you know the the prosecution doesn't get a chance to disprove this Theory either because it
wasn't presented and what I mean by that is had this been a theory the night of when they're collecting evidence the
night of and the morning after well they could have potentially combed Michael Peterson's hair and said well we found
the same feathers microscopic Fe Fe feathers in his hair well where did these come from maybe they came from the
backs of the chairs that they were sitting on outside but but again and the the reason why I do like this theory
is it explains the blood outside the house but it also explains these little lacerations that nobody's no expert
witness whether it's coming from the defense or the prosecution can explain these little tiny
lacerations so that's one reason that makes me go maybe this is not such a dumb idea I'll give you the little tiny
lacerations the other thing though is the blood out front of the house and the blood on the doorway could have also
come from a blood soaked Michael Peterson who just attacked his wife from behind and beat her to death and decided
to run out front for some reason or or play devil the door for some reason he goes in and finds his wife and he calls
911 and he's waiting around a lot of people argue too oh when he calls 911 he doesn't sound like he's by her body and
most people that call 911 are by the the person's body that had the accident not
always true I think it becomes fight or flight he's also drunk maybe he had to get out of the room oh my God I can't
take this I got to get out of the room whether he is the cause of her injuries or not the cause of his her
injuries he is covered in blood he at some point takes off his shoes is it possible because now he's not his feet
don't have any blood is it possible that he walks outside to see if the ambulance
is there yet and leaves a little blood on I agree with that so whether he was guilty or not that would explain the
evidence outside yes and I agree with you 100% I mean you as much as you want to stay there and tend to the victim and
try to help her along at the same point you're going to be wondering hey if these people show up to potentially save
her life at the last minute I better make sure the front door is unlocked right or or and open or yeah or you're
panicking and and you just run to the front door and to see if they're there right so I mean that's not that
farfetched all right did he do it Captain boom hit you hit you hard with that didn't I did he do it it's tough
isn't it it's I mean this is actually probably you think it's toughest the one of the toughest did he do it how many
times have you changed your mind roughly in the past never okay but that's cuz that's pretty solid but that's because
I'm never made up my mind oh so it's I don't think there was enough evidence to convict him
but I you know um I I don't know and and I think the things are one that they show how some of those lacerations would
have came onto her head based off the biomechanics so I believe that but I can't figure out did she accidentally
fall which she had enough value and alcohol in her system that she could have fell mhm and that would be that
would be a plausible explanation and people say well there's a lot of blood well you're a little bit older your
Skin's a little bit thinner especially on your scalp you bleed a lot M especially if you have that high of
alcohol levels you're going to have thinner blood I mean I had I got a tatto one time after days after drinking mhm
and I mean the guy who told me two or three times I might have to stop I mean you are bleeding all over the place and
see he was like just some people bleed differently so is it possible that she hit her head and then it caused all that
blood which caused her to slip multiple times maybe and the other thing though too is uh they have all these other
theories that okay well the weapon wasn't the poker the weapon was his hands and he actually beat her head
against the stairs okay I would argue then well maybe you get lacerations from beating her head against the the the
stairs but where's the brain bruising where's the swelling right where's the you know it's that's where it becomes so
odd how do you get these marks you know what I mean like how do you get these marks without getting any
skull fracture that was the single hardest thing for me to get over to that was this and Still Remains I I shouldn't say
get over it's something that just doesn't make any sense to me where I think it might make some sense
to me is as I pointed out before the jury didn't believe that the blowpoke was the murder weapon I don't believe
that the blowpoke was the murder weapon I don't see how somebody could make those marks on the scalp using that item
without fractures in the skull so that portion kind of makes sense to me the thing is I'm with you captain in the
sense that if I were sitting on the jury I wouldn't have been able to convict Michael Peterson of the murder of
Kathleen Peterson I think that the defense did a good enough job well based off the documentary based off of what I
saw in the documentary correct um and based off of what I've researched since then now if it all went down as I
believe that it went down like I said sitting on the jury I wouldn't be able to convict him I think there was
reasonable doubt that he didn't commit this murder now I'm not saying that he's innocent now well mind you too if you
were on the jury you didn't see his initial eyebrows because they were trimmed well you might have convicted
him with his initial eyebrows now gun to my head I have to make it decision hold
on let me get one out all right okay make sure locked and loaded take the safety off yeah this is what you do when
you're drinking no don't say that don't say that don't ever touch a gun when you're drink we're going to be all right
serious note don't play with guns don't drink and play with guns all right sorry
gun to my head meaning I have to make a decision right right guilty not guilty mhm I'm
going to go with guilty I I'm going to say Michael Peterson killed his wife and and here's
where I'm going with this this is this is what I believe happened mhm and I'm going to use his words to convict him
and my mind mhm and his words on the um to the documentary uh the staircase documentary when he's recounting that
night he says that around 11:00 we finished watching the movie we went into the kitchen for a while we talked for a
while for a good amount of time we went out to the pool talked for a good amount
of time she goes inside goes to bed I stay outside have a smoke I come inside I find her dead I call 911 we do know
that the 911 call happened at 2:40 241 in the morning morning okay where I have a problem with his
version of the story is at no point does he tell us that she had a phone conversation in his office with her
coworker at 11:08 mhm this was the time that they were supposed to be done with the movie and in the kitchen talking
right and then she's waiting on a very important email now people have pointed out that she never opened that email
that came through at 11:53 that means he killed her before 11:53 I don't believe
that 100% because the meeting was the next day at 10:00 a.m. right she could have just wanted to make sure that that
email came in I'll check it first thing in the morning right but you she might have checked to see if it was there she
could have checked to see if it was there the other thing is I think what happened and I'm using the state's
evidence which I know is slightly flawed but the states evidence was that she would have died of blood loss that would
have taken 90 minutes minutes to 2 hours for her to bleed out MH she was reported
dead she's reported dead by Michael Peterson at 2:46 a.m. in the morning and what I mean
by that is on the first call he repeatedly States she's still breathing on the second call he says she's no
longer breathing he might have thought she was breathing though I'm going by his again I'm going by his words and if
she's coughing up blood or spitting up blood it's going to be pretty obvious that she's breathing she's going to be
breathing heavily too so yeah he by his own words she was breathing at 241 and not breathing at 2:46 if it took 90
minutes to two hours for her to bleed to death I don't feel like there's enough time in his story for her to have fallen
accidentally and bled out for an hour and a half to two hours before he finds her and then calls 91
one yeah um I don't know if the 11:00 stuff makes sense or not the other thing I would really want to
know uh and it never was answered was is he a night owl no pun intended it doesn't matter to me though go ahead no
the reason why is because for a couple to normally married couples go to bed together sometimes
they don't always especially when they're drinking one drinks more than the other they go I'm going to go to bed
they're like hey I'm up I'm up partying but you don't normally stay up that much longer but he's a smoker so is
it possible that they were drinking and then he sat there and smoked and how did
he stay out there for 2 or three hours MH is his timeline wrong he was drinking you know like they they had the
conversation at 11 they go outside let's say they're only outside for a couple uh
30 minutes right mhm she goes I'm going to bed okay good night she has her accident he's out there till 2:30 or
whatever then then things start adding up I don't know if should' be breathing but again I mean we we again
we don't even know if she was breathing or not but by his own words she was breathing yeah but I don't give a [ __ ]
about words I want to get I want evidence you know okay I'm trying to put together my thought and my opinions of
the case if he's guilty or not no no I agree with I I agree with what you're saying what I'm saying is can't the
medical examiner tell us when closer time she di no and that's why I said that they dropped the ball
earlier if you look at the autopsy the original autopsy States time of death 2:40 a.m. question
mark and what I'm stating here is I have to use Michael Peterson's own words and then work that back against some of
the evidence that we have there and the evidence that's stated by the state is it would have taken an hour and a half
to two hours for her to bleed to death he's stating that at 2:41 she's alive and at
2:46 a.m. she's dead meaning that she went inside either at 1:15 if we are to believe his story that she went inside
as late as 1:15 in the morning or as early as 12:4 5 a.m. in the morning and then magically she falls down the steps
he comes in he says about 30 minutes 40 minutes after she went inside he went inside and I understand he could have
his times off a little bit the pro problem though is if in fact the state is right that it took an hour and a half
or two hours for her to bleed to death his story doesn't match up it just doesn't match
up yeah also I think the difficult thing is one one of the things that the fence
said was they looked at all the cases that somebody died from blunt force trauma and there was never a case that
there wasn't skull fractures so what did he use I think the bio um what did I figure out it was biomechanics there we
go the biomechanic expert was correct I think but again how did she fall did did she slip or did she get
pulled down and if you got pulled down hard enough would you possibly pull out some hair MH and then she would grab her
hair and now she has her some hair chunks out of her and if you you didn't ask me before if you put a gun to my
head but if you put a gun to my head I'd have to say he was he was guilty of this
I personally what I think happened here I I don't think think obviously the blowpoke was used to kill Kathleen
Peterson I don't know that he intended to kill her I think that maybe that there was like the state said an
argument that escalated into some kind of physical attack um the result was her her murder and that he caused her death
yeah but but think about this too though if he pulls her hair right or pushes her
whatever to get there's some kind of attack it's more likely that she then moves around more struggles more when
she's down there tries to get back up on her feet mhm it's just more likely than
if she just fell cuz the way the defense tries to make it out is that she just fell she starts bleeding and then she
tries to get help and she tries to stand up she try you know what I mean well I think the problem here really is that I
do think that she fell down the steps and I think that the fall was was not um by way of her being drunk or taking
volume or wearing flip-flops or being attacked by an owl out front of her house I think she was attacked by
Michael Peterson and that caused her to have injuries that caused her to fall as
she hurried up the stairs and then she suffered injuries during the course of that fall which made it very confusing
in the end for all of us to determine was it an attack or was it a fall personally I think that some kind of
argument ensued in the kitchen and I think that if I had to pick a weapon I think it might have been a cork
screw I think that he might have tried to punch her or tried to smack at the back of her head as she was leaving him
defiantly in the course of the argument and he scratched and clawed her with the
cork screw whether it be intentional or not M but that caused some of the lacerations which then she went up up
the stairs fell backwards hit her head again which resulted in the lacerations getting bigger or splitting like they
had [Music] said all right thanks for listening thank you for sharing on social media
it's because of you that we can continue to drink in the garage and disagree and
agree and disagree and and agree disagree all right all right so check uh check out our other show uh off the
Record it's on Stitcher premium it's $5 a month and what's cool is not only do you get our show but you get our show
without commercials you also get other shows without commercial it's it's basically the Netflix for podcasting and
if you want to just dip your toes in the water rather than dive all the way into
the deep end you can try it for free for 30 days so you can check out Stitcher premium and see if you love it we're
getting all kinds of great reviews I appreciate those everybody make sure you join us back here in the garage next
week until then be good be kind and don't [Music] litter [Applause] [Music] you can start your day off right when
you find a professional on Angie to get your plumbing right first connect with skilled professionals
to get all your home projects done well visit angie.com you can do this when you
do that

The Staircase /// Part 2 /// 244

Part 2 of 2

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.TrueCrimeGarage.com)

Kathleen Peterson was smart, vibrant, professionally successful, and by all accounts a superb daughter, mother, sister and friend. On December 9th, 2001 Kathleen died mysteriously in her home. Was it an accident or murder? In 2004 HBO documented her death and the trial and conviction of Kathleen’s husband, Michael Peterson. In 2018 Netflix documented the release of Michael Peterson. This has been by far one of our most requested cases. HBO and Netflix covered “The Staircase” and this week True Crime Garage is on the case! Beer of the Week - Secret Stairs by Trillium Brewing CompanyGarage Grade - 4 and a quarter bottle caps out of 5

Beer Fund: https://truecrimegarage.com/home

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com (https://pcm.adswizz.com) for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Brief Summary

Michael Peterson's trial reveals complex evidence linking two deaths, raising questions about guilt and the owl attack theory.

Key points

The Mystery of Elizabeth Ratliff. Elizabeth Ratliff's death is re-examined, raising questions about Michael Peterson's involvement.
The Staircase Documentary Impact. The hosts discuss the powerful impact of the documentary on their views of the case.
Michael Peterson Found Guilty. On October 10th, 2003, a jury found Michael Peterson guilty of murdering Kathleen Peterson.
The Owl Theory Emerges. A neighbor suggests Kathleen Peterson's death may have been caused by an owl attack.
The Owl Theory. A theory emerges suggesting an owl attack could explain the injuries.
Guilty or Not?. Debate on Michael Peterson's guilt intensifies as evidence is scrutinized.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's good to see you, thanks for listening.

Host greeting the audience.

2:00WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

More from True Crime Garage TV

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.