The Staircase /// Part 1 /// 243 | Forensic Files

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[Music] crime [Music] 911 where's your mergency 1810 C Street please what's wrong my
wife had an accident she's still breathing what kind of accident still down the stairs she's still breathing
please is she conscious is she no she's not conscious okay how many stairs did you fall down huh how many St stairs
stairs how many stairs calm down sir calm down no 15 20 I don't know please get somebody here right way
please okay somebody's dispatching the ambulance while I ask you question it's it's a for CH okay please
[Music] pleaseee [Music] Kathleen Peterson was born February 2st 1953 in Greensboro North Carolina she
grew up in Lancaster Pennsylvania and graduated first in her class at high school also voted Girl of the Year so
it's quite obvious she was well-liked and respected by her fellow classmates she moved to Durham North Carolina to
attend Duke University it's been reported she was the first female student accepted into Duke's engineering
school so a very bright young woman she met her first husband Fred Atwater at Duke they had a daughter Caitlyn their
marriage did not last later she met Michael Peterson Michael graduated from Duke as well after extensive schooling
and education Peterson took a job with the US Department of Defense to research military involvement in Vietnam he also
had a first marriage to a lady named Patricia Sue she taught Elementary School on the ryy main air force base in
West Germany they had two children Clayton and Todd in 1968 Peterson enlisted in the Marines and served in
Vietnam in 19 1971 he received an honorable discharge with the rank of Captain after a car accident left him
with a permanent disability Michael and Patricia lived in Germany for some time there they befriended Elizabeth and
George Ratliff and their two children Margaret and Martha now unfortunately George would pass away and after his
death the Petersons and the Ratliff families became very close when Elizabeth Ratliff died in 19 1985
Michael became the guardian of her two children after Michael and Patricia divorced in 1987 Clayton and Todd the
two sons went to live with their mother Patricia and Margaret and Martha stayed with Michael who then moved to Durham
North Carolina Clayton and Todd would later also join their father okay so both are divorced then when later
Michael and Kathleen meet and then they are together in 199 92 the couple bought
a 14 room dream home on Cedar Street and 5 years later Kathleen and Michael married in
1997 now our murder case and the day in question takes place in 2001 by this time Kathleen is and has been a
successful business executive for Norton making about $150,000 a year Peterson Michael
Peterson wrote three novels based around his experiences during the yanes conflict The Immortal Dragon a time of
war and a bitter peace are the three titles of his books he also co-authored several other books and he worked as a
newspaper columnist for the Durham herold's son where his colums became known for their criticism of police and
Durham County District Attorney James Harden Jr mainly because of what Peterson suggested was a lack of ability
for the local Law and Order to solve cases and get convictions well let's start with the timeline of the murder so
we'll start a day before the actual event so on Friday December 7th 2001 Kathleen takes the day off from work
that afternoon the Petersons Michael and Kathleen go Christmas shopping Friday evening the Petersons attend an event
for the North Carolina independent party Michael was involved in politics at different points in his life so it makes
sense that they would be attending this event now on Saturday December 8th at approximately 3:30 p.m. hundreds of
files are deleted from Michael Peterson's PC with a dis purging program called quick clean at 4:41 p.m. Michael
arrives at the YMCA gym at approximately 6:00 p.m. the married couple talks about
renting a movie for the night at 6:59 p.m. m Micha rents America's America sweethearts at Blockbuster
Video at 9:45 p.m. Christine thetti arrives at the Peterson's home to take Todd their son to a party she sees
Kathleen and Michael sharing a bottle of wine at this time around 10:20 p.m. Christine and Todd leave for this party
at 10:40 p.m. the password Atwater logs into the Peterson's PC Michael Peterson says that they finished
the movie probably around 1100 p.m. and then they went to the kitchen and talked
for a while Michael later says that the two would talk at night for 2 to three hours sometimes and that he knows that
they drank two bottles of wine that night he does not give a more exact amount of time that they are in the
kitchen drinking and talking but pay attention because the following times are extremely important to our case at
11:08 p.m. Norton Network's coworker Helen pringer later testified that she talked to Cathleen Peterson at this time
and that Kathleen did not sound intoxicated and did not seem abnormal in any way she did not sense that Kathleen
and Michael Peterson were fighting at this time and he heard Kathleen ask her husband for his email address Miss
pringer said Kathleen needed a document for a teleconference scheduled for 10:00
a.m. the next day and was expecting an email with that a doc with that document attached the email was in fact sent to
Michael Peterson's email address at 10:53 p.m. pringer email arrives the blank email's PowerPoint attachment was
never opened the attachment was titled Readiness on Sunday December 9th 2001 Maybe sometime after midnight the
Petersons drank and talked outside near the pool please note it is about 50° out
at night that night at this time according to Michael after talking in the kitchen the two went to the pool and
quote we were talking here indicates near the pool for a fair amount of time again Captain not giving us a great
exact understanding of how long he believes they were out there and at what time did they go to the pool but
indicating that they were outside talking and another statement he actually says that they're out on the
porch for a while mhm then they go out to the pool area but Michael was a a pipe smoker so he would smoke his pipe
and talk outside so yes it's kind of chilly outside but he's smoking I think Kathleen might have been a
smoker maybe on some level you know you know we have those people that smoke when they drink
um and I that because later Nico in her body she could have joined a smoke or just took a puff or two uh when they're
outside having their conversation but there's also a lot of people that when they drink it's like uh right when they
start drinking they don't need one but once they get past a certain point they need many cigarettes so right away I
don't see I don't have any red flags no major red flags going on off regarding Michael Peterson's statements about that
night well I mean other than the computer being cleaned right right that seems odd but on top of that I mean as
far as what's going down at this point in the evening 11:00 12:00 maybe a little bit
later having watched the docu series the staircase they didn't directly show this
but often when Michael Peterson is kind of doing the one-on-one thing with the camera I almost always see like little
red stains on the side of his lips like this comes off to me as a guy that very much likes drinking his wine um and so
him saying that him and his wife were hanging out on a Saturday night having a couple bottles of wine does not strike
me as weird it actually I I think this is probably exactly what was going down at that time and we also have the
eyewitness that came in to pick up the sun says hey I saw the two hanging out and they were drinking together
now according to Michael this is where I start to wonder about things because according to
Michael at approximately 2:30 a.m. he leaves the pool area he goes inside and he finds his wife at the bottom of the
stairs go back what time did she leave the pool area well that's what's a little bit unclear to me because he
states that we were out here for a fair amount of time talking we were uh talking together and he estimates that
she could have left as long as 45 minutes to an hour before he left the pool area or it could have been as
little as 30 minutes from when he left the pool area but during that time sometime during that time Kathleen
leaves the pool area and heads inside for bed Michael stays outside to drink and has a smoke like you said then
Kathleen at some point suffers multiple deep complex lacerations and avulsions to the SCP multiple small abrasions and
contusions to the face and a fracture with Associated Hemorrhage of the thyroid cartilage in the neck so quite a
bit of injuries during this time right now depending on which report you read and this is not a major deal because
we're talking about a difference of 60 seconds or so some Reports say at 2:40 a.m. some say 2:41 a.m. Michael Peterson
calls 9911 and that's the 911 call that you heard at the start of the show now the operator picks up and says Durham
911 where is your emergency to which Michael replies uh 1810 Cedar Street please operator what's wrong Peterson my
wife had an accident she's still breathing operator what kind of accident Michael Peterson she fell down the
stairs she's still breathing please come 911 is she conscious Peterson what 911 is she conscious Peterson no she's not
conscious please 911 how many stairs did she fall down Michael Peterson what what
911 how many stairs Peterson uh uh uh he's failing to give an answer there regarding the stairs I get this doesn't
seem like a question he might have been expecting whether he's guilty or innocent the 911 operator tells him to
calm down calm down sir calm down Peter no damned 1620 I don't know please get somebody here right away please 911 okay
somebody's dispatching the ambulance while I'm asking you questions Peterson it's uh oh it's Forest Hills okay please
please 911 okay sir someone is dispatching the ambulance is she awake now Peterson um um 911 hello hello
Peterson um um um now that's the end of that call asked if she's awake now Peterson does not give an answer and for
whatever reason we don't know but the call is ended 2:46 a.m. Michael Peterson calls 911 a second time 911 durm 911
what is your emergency Peterson where are they it's 1810 Cedar she's not breathing please please would you hurry
up 911 sir Peterson can you hear me 911 sir Peterson yes 911 sir calm down they're on their way can you tell me for
sure she's not breathing sir hello hello at 2:48 a.m. paramedics arrive and Kathleen Peterson is found dead in a
hallway at 3:00 a.m. police and detectives begin to arrive and search 1810 Cedar Street at 3:24 a.m.
investigators secure the scene now between 4:15 and 5 a.m. some point Peterson logs on to his
office computer and he's overheard mumbling something about email at 5:00 a.m. Michael Peterson calls his
attorney now let's go into some more detailed accounts of what took place during this time shall we so we have
James Rose and Ron paage paramedics with the durm County Emergency Medical Services they arrive at the Peterson's
Residence at the same time Michael son Todd Peterson arrived the Peterson's house is a large estate home with an
open 4year entrance the paramedics found the front door open and noticed blood on
it straight ahead through the front door is the large main staircase leading to the second floor immediately to the left
after entering is a front hallway leading down to the kitchen off of this hallway near the kitchen is an enclosed
narrow stairwell also leading to the second floor yeah it kind of there's a turn in in the staircase as well yeah
and upon entering the house the paramedics observed Kathleen lying at the bottom of this stairwell her legs
were out into the hallway and her head was just inside the encased open door frame where the first few steps are
located now the stairwell runs parallel to the hallway but has a few angled steps as you had just mentioned at at
the bottom designed to open up the staircase perpendicular into that hallway Michael was seen standing over
Kathleen in a semi- knees bent position with blood on his hands arms legs and feet he wore shorts and a t-shirt uh
this t-shirt is partially soaked blood soaked with splatter spots when paramedics arrived at Kathleen's body
Todd the son tried to pull his father away stating dad she's dead the paramedics are here paramedics Rose and
Paige quickly determined that Kathleen had no pulse and she was not breathing Michael stated that he had gone outside
to turn off the lights came back in and then found her at the bottom of the steps paramedic Rose testified later
that there was an enormous amount of blood he said dried blood was on the steps and also on the wall and it also
looked like it had been wiped away or wiped on on it had been smeared instead of just blood droplets on the wall he
testified that based on his experience there was an unusual amount of blood for a fall and that the most severe injury
he had seen from a fall was a broken neck the blood under Kathleen's head had already clotted and started to harden so
detective Holland was asked to give his opinion on this scene yeah he's from the
homicide unit and they wanted to bring him in because they were a little confused about what they are seeing
right there's we have a a call that a a person fell down the stairs that there's
been an accident yet they're seeing a lot of blood and they're seeing blood in different places throughout the house
which is calling it they're calling the scene suspicious right so Holland says that he received a page approximately
around 3:00 in the morning and that he was going to arrive at this death investigation he he said that the call
he received came in as someone had fallen down the steps but upon arrival detective Holland says this does not
look like an accident forming an immediate opinion detective Holland identified himself to Mr Peterson and
even shook his hand and explained to him that he was sorry for his loss but that
it appeared that the scene looked suspicious and it needed to be processed at trial detective Holland was asked was
Michael helpful at that point did he answer your initial questions detective Holland said no no he pretty
much was very quiet kept to himself didn't say a whole lot now police videotaped the scene as the officers
found it Michael Peterson's tennis shoes and socks by the foot of the body white
towels soaked red with blood from Kathleen's injury to the back of her head blood smears up the oak staircase
and on the wall above detective Holland called for a crime scene analyst and expert in blood spatter who in turn told
the detective he felt strongly that this was a homicide for the next 20 hours officers meticulously photographed and
documented what they now regarded as a crime scene there was a small amount of blood outside on the walkway blood
stains on the front door the blood on the kitchen sink uh uh a wine bottle and glasses on the counter every inch of the
3 Acre property was combed luminol testing revealed bloody Footprints leading from Kathleen Peterson's body
into the laundry room then going to the kitchen refrigerator and sink then moving to a wine glass cabinet which
also had blood on it the footprints mysteriously stopped at the cabinet they just stopped yeah later at trial the
defense would challenge the cops on what they didn't do at the Peterson house the
police didn't tape off the area of the stairwell until 3:34 a.m. almost an hour after the call came in and by then it
was too late Peterson's lawyers criticized what they called sloppy police procedures the blood in that area
had been altered the scene at the house had been contaminated example Michael goes up to Kathleen with the police
watching hugs her Todd takes him the son puts him on the couch where there's blood transfer and
then Todd says can I get some soda in a glass and the police say sure and he goes there he goes Todd walking around
the kitchen with blood on his hands so at trial police would point out that they found blood in suspicious locations
mainly in different areas of the kitchen right and that these were red flags however as I just stated you can see you
can kind of see why there may have been blood in strange locations throughout the kitchen and in my opinion the blood
in the kitchen area for example was a complete irrelevancy once you establish that there was contamination there in
the kitchen with the police standing right by well they also did tests to make sure that there there wasn't any
cleaning products used in the kitchen to clean up any evidence and there was none
found later that day Dr Dr Deborah radish a pathologist with the office of the North Carolina medical examiner
performed an autopsy on Kathleen's body toxicology results showed that Kathleen's blood alcohol content was
.7% the autopsy report concluded that Kathleen sustained a matrix of severe injuries including a fracture of the
thyroid neck cartilage and seven lacerations caused by a homicidal assault to the top and back of her head
consistent with blows from a blunt object the result of repeated blows with a light yet rigid weapon and had died
from blood loss 90 minutes to 2 hours after sustaining the injuries they also found that she took a volume that night
later Michael Peterson's defense disputed this Theory according to their analysis Kathleen's skull had not been
fractured by the blows nor was she brain damaged which was inconsistent with injuries sustained in a beating death
forensic expert Dr Henry Lee hired by the defense testified that the blood spatter evidence was consistent with an
accidental fall down the stairs police investigators concluded that the injuries were inconsistent with such an
accident we'll get right back to the staircase right after this quick beer [Music]
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[Music] all right cheers mates cheers to all cheers to everybody how about some theories Captain let's get into some
reasons why the prosecution and law enforcement would believe that that Michael Peterson had motive to kill his
wife okay so we have Durham County District Attorney James Harden Jr and the prosecution attacked Peterson's
credibility focusing on his alleged misreporting of his military service and what they described as Michael's secret
life and we will get into that in a bit but first Michael's credibility during a
campaign for mayor michet Michael Peterson claimed he was awarded Ed a silver star a bronze star with Valor and
two purple hearts he had all of these medals but said he did not have the documentation for them he claimed he
received one Purple Heart after being hit by shrapnel when another Soldier stepped on a landmine and the other when
he was shot Peterson later admitted his War injury was not the result of the shrapnel wound in Vietnam but was the
result of a V vehicle accident in Japan where he was stationed after the war as a military policeman okay so he was a
military policeman he's hit by a car or he's in a car accident and then he claims that he got
a purple heart for that but not for that but for something else well when he's running for mayor he claims that he
sustained big time Big Time wounds during the course of War he was inflicted with SH shrapnel and then then
he was also shot which is a much bigger difference than being in a car accident so we have a liar on our hands well not
only that and these are Big lies I mean this is also a guy that wrote three books about the Vietnam War right right
fictitious books I believe but they centered around the Vietnam War well some articles refer to him as a war hero
um I don't know if I would go as far say he's a war zero yeah I mean I mean technically I guess in my mind anybody
that serves overseas serves this great country is some form of hero the problem I have here is he's elevating himself to
a whole different level and he was obviously not deserving of any of that credit that he was willing to take I
mean we have we have men and women that come home to their families in caskets right that receive purple hearts that
receive some of the awards that he is claiming that he earned and he didn't and and like you said a
liar and these are Big lies another motive for Kathleen's murder would be a $1.5 million life insurance policy the
prosecution witness uh Raymond young said that the Petersons were spending about $100,000 a year more than they
made during the each during each of the three years before Kathleen Peterson's death young also testified that when
Kathleen Peterson died the Petersons were carrying more than $142,000 in credit card and credit line
debt spread across 20 active accounts now the defense objected to this unsuccessfully that Young's credit card
information essentially a report of a report amounted to hearsay testimony the defense also complained
that young did not distinguish between different kinds of expenses such as reoccurring bills and discretionary
purchases during his analysis of Peterson's cash flow the defense pointed out that young had counted checks
written to buy stocks as expenses but didn't count the sale of those stocks as quote normal income the defense also
questioned young about why he did not account for the thousands of dollars that flowed through Kathleen Peterson's
accounts when Norton networks her employer reimbursed her for business expenses using Young's own figures of
the coup's assets mortgage liabilities and credit card debt the defense showed that the Petersons had a combined net
worth of more than $1.4 million defense lawyer Thomas Mayer asked as they sat there that December weekend even with
your analysis this couple was worth more than $1.4 million isn't that correct that's right young replied so again the
prosecution is trying to prove that they had some money issues and that would be
the motive because then he could collect the insurance check that kind of backfired on the prosecution so their
next theory for motive is going to be kind of a dark secret yeah this this Theory would be that Kathleen's murder
uh was motivated by the discovery of Michael's Secret Life by Kathleen on the night of the murder
so the prosecutor believed that Kathleen stumbled upon something explosive on the
Peterson's home computer downloaded images of naked men there was two approximately 2,000 of them there were
also Liaisons outside of the marriage a series of email exchanges between Michael Peterson and a local male
prostitute he had found through the internet that Kathleen didn't know about the other man introduced in trial was
Brad from Raleigh so he's said wait 2,000 downloaded naked pictures of dudes correct pornography on his computer
that's a lot of twig and berries well this guy Brad from Raleigh was a 20 year old 26y old excuse me former Soldier and
I think he went by the moniker top Soldier his website pick was a Beefcake pose complete with dog tags according to
the prosecutor by late summer 2001 4 months before Kathleen's death Michael Peterson agreed to get with Brad for sex
at Peterson's home Brad on the stand said we were to hook up I believe on September 5th 2001 the prosecutor asked
and what was the price you quoted him Brad said I believed it was $150 per hour but Brad told the court when the
appointed day came around he was tired and cancelled the prosecutor so you just just simply didn't contact him back at
all Brad stated I don't think I contacted him that night I have found out that I contacted him about 25 days
later to apologize for not showing up prosecutor asked after you contacted him to apologize for not showing up did you
have further communication with him Brad no ma'am Brad testified that he and Peterson had never met until they were
in court together for the prosecutor the brand episode was to show that the marriage was anything but Rock Solid and
the trail of email messages that became the quote trigger that the state talked about I I want to throw out something a
little strange that I I noticed during the documentary one Brad is very Charming on the stand he telling jokes
he's smart yeah and uh and a good-looking guy and at some point Michael Peterson's daughters are are
listening to his testimony and one of the daughters is kind of glowing in the way a girl would be listening to an
attractive guy talk and be Charming you know she's kind of being Smitten by him if that makes any sense and
then and then and then he says something to basically remind the courtroom that he's a gay man and her face like
shrivels up well I I hate to say this but it's durm North Carolina um this is tough for some people in the audience
to identify with let's say let's continue on with with some of the things that Brad said um you mean by that what
do I mean by that I mean exactly what I said it's Durham North Carolina this testimony uh the thought of a bisexual
married man going outside of his marriage is going to be tough for people in that audience to identify with now
the defense was asked was that an unusual occurrence for you to have or plan to have sexual relations
with a with married men right Brad stated to the contrary married men are in the majority of most of the clients
that I saw when I was an escort the defense with regards to the kinds of men that you tended to have escort
relationships with can you give us some indication as to their professions for example Brad answered sure usually they
are professionals because my fees are quite High I saw doctors attorneys and one
judge and then the judge says not this judge right and it was noted it was noted in in the court transcript the
defense then asked did a number of the men the married men that you had sexual relations with have wives that knew they
were bisexual Brad stated I believe most of them did from my experience yeah the
defense asked in your experience was it unusual for a wife married to a bisexual
man to know that he was bisexual Brad's answer was not at all the defense asked was it unusual for a bisexual man using
your services to be in a happy marriage Brad answered not at all most of the men
who would see me would have their time with me and then go back to their happy healthy lives It's Not Unusual to be
loved by anyone the defense asked was there any kind of personal relationship involved between you and Michael
Peterson Brad stated no sir I believe in one of the emails it was very explicit that there would be no emotions involved
no personal relationships involved and it would be strictly physical yeah I mean I think he also stated he loved his
wife and they had a really good marriage you you're you're exactly right right the defense asked did Michael Peterson
ever do or say anything either on the phone or by email to indicate that he was not in love with Kathleen Peterson
Brad answered to the contrary in his emails unlike most of my clients he indicated that he had a great
relationship most clients don't want to say anything about their relationship he
said he had a warm relationship with his wife and nothing would ever destroy that
the defense showed the jur Peterson's own words in an email to Brad which stated I am married very happily married
with a dynamite wife yeah the prosecution alleged that Kathleen would have been infuriated by learning that
her husband was having an extramarital relationship not with another woman but a man right their statement that once
she learned this information that an argument ensued and then a homicide occurred the the defense argued that
Kathleen accepted Michael's bisexuality and that the marriage was very happy a position supported by Michael and
Kathleen's children and other friends and Associates now we do know that Caitlyn so Kaitlyn is technically
Kathleen's daughter from her first marriage yeah Caitlyn stopped supporting Michael Peterson when this information
was deos disclosed so let's jump back to the children shall we M we have children
of Michael Peterson from his first marriage that's Clayton and Todd his two sons and they support him correct and
then we have children of George and Elizabeth Ratliff who are both deceased but were raised by Michael Peterson this
is Margaret and Martha yeah they both support him as well correct then we have the daughter of Kathleen Peterson uh
Caitlyn Atwater she initially proclaimed Michael's innocence in publicly supported him but after learning of
Peterson's bisexuality and after reading her mother's autopsy report she broke off from the rest of the family and this
motive is kind of hard to decide if it could even work as a motive cuz you don't know if his wife knew about his
bisexual yeah I agree Captain for me it kind of like you know I I fancy myself a
pretty open-minded dude and for me it really just kind of put me at the top of def fense you know where I could see one
side and see the other side and mainly practically agree with both sides you know I think what they did here is I
think the prosecution made a strong case that this could be a motive I think the
defense did a good job of stating maybe this is no motive at all right cuz if she knew and she and that was the
arrangement that their marriage had where and even Brad the escort said that he felt that most of his
clients were mainly heterosexual with some homosexual tendencies and so it was just kind of you know maybe a percentage
out well they're 80% uh straight uh 20% gay or whatever it is and and so if that's the arrangement that their
marriage had then who are we to say how they should live their life or or how they should conduct their marriage that
that's on them but the issue here then becomes as far as like the children go did you have any knowledge of this did
you did you even have a thought process that your father was doing this MH so that would be so I can see why the
children are supportive I can see why they would not be and because I also think it if you didn't know and now
they're saying that you're your mom knew but you had no proof well again we have him lying about
his War record now he was not you know not lying but not telling the full truth to his
children about his sexuality so so I don't question that so much because I don't know that I don't
know that if I had children if I would share you know the things that I'm into with them I don't think there's that's a
weird conversation to have this podcast is I I actually what I mean is that they
they might feel like it was another way of being lied to is what I'm saying no I
agree with that but what I'm stating is that I don't find the children not knowing to be weird right you know I I I
don't of course if they knew then obviously I'd be convinced that there was no problem with this thing but if
they didn't know that doesn't to me suggest that there is a problem and actually furthermore you know somebody I
was talking to to said hey so really the sole question regarding the state's case
is did Kathleen know or did she not know and I said well I see what you're saying
there but however it's not necessarily did she know or did she not know it's was she okay with it if she did know
right and they're trying to present a motive the problem with this is especially in a
marriage there could be thousands of different motives that we would never know because there could be hundreds of
conversations that they had in private that nobody even knew about mhm see what I mean so it's like they're just trying
to establish a motive and like you said they do a good job prosecution does of presenting it defense does a great job
of deflecting it and so yeah it kind of puts you on the the center of the post yeah and I think what they did was they
both present their side and then it's left up to the members of the jury to figure out what side they fall to and
what they believe actually occurred one thing though that I do question here is his defense was very good I thought it
was a good team a smart group of people they questioned a lot of things they defended him very well the thing that
that did not happen and I know it doesn't exist because I know that they were smart enough that they would have
presented this at trial was they couldn't prove that Kathleen Peterson knew that Michael was bisexual right
they couldn't prove that Kathleen was okay with it so you know that a conversation took place between the the
head defense attorney and Michael Peterson that there's a sit down in a closed room where he says to Michael
Michael is there anything anywhere any proof that you can show me that Kathleen knew and that she was okay with it or
was there any proof that you can show me that she at least knew that gets us over
one speed bump right and so that didn't exist and when you have Michael Peterson
who talks about this he's a little vague too don't you wouldn't you agree he says
yeah she knew uh did you guys talk about it no it wasn't really something we spoke about but again but this is a this
is a tricky thing because these are conversations behind closed doors and could it be a situation where she's like
okay I understand that I mean they could have been you know they develop into a relationship and he says to her I have
this side of me m that I like to explore and she might have said that's fine with me don't want to hear
about it right you know just as long as you're not being with other women right that could have been the agreement who
knows you know I mean uh and that's I don't know it's it's it's very tricky and again though I stick by what
I said where it's less important that Kathleen knew it's more important that she was either okay with it or not okay
with it well let's start with the idea of should this even been been allowed in the courtroom and I believe the judge
said later that he almost wishes that he would have just said no we can't talk about this and the reason why was cuz he
was afraid you know it's in the South would it be prese prejudicial basically right basically if you bring up that
this guy is is bisexual would there just be one or two people on the jury that would
just find him guilty because he's bisexual right and I think for me if I were the judge or the prosecutor my
argument that it would would it be in the trial and I understand don't send a weird email that
I'm claiming that the judge and prosecutor work together I understand the way the system works but what I mean
by this is it's a part of the state's case right the state's case is that Kathleen Peterson that night stumbled
upon information she found on his computer that suggested that this kind of activity was going on therefore she
confronted him about that that night they got into an argument and he beat her to death that's the state's case
yeah but that's because the other motive wasn't going to stick so well so when they found this I think it was more
about let's make this a part of our motive so we can brain up the fact that he has almost this double life and and I
cuz I do think that shows something if she didn't know about the double life and his kids didn't know about the
double life and it seems like nobody nobody knew about the double life then it's like then what is HE capable of you
don't know because you don't really know the real person I agree with that but what I mean by it goes with the state's
cases if you follow the timeline of events of known events that night not what Michael Peterson says but what
others state right is that Kathleen Peterson was using his computer that night to receive information from from
her work we know that from her coworker who says I overheard Kathleen asking him
for his email address and we have the password being accessing the computer and so the state's case would be this
was a computer that she didn't often use or didn't regularly use maybe used it for the first time who knows and
discovers this information there that night and when confronting Michael about it it turns into uh an argument that
lead s to him killing her yeah I think the other thing too about this is we have some kind of record that he's
trying to use software to clean the computer so what did the prosecution find what did the investigation find on
his computer afterwards and was that supposed to been cleaned off of his computer and
wasn't well there was there was at least all of those pornographic pictures of men were they were they supposed to be
wiped away I don't I don't know what his intent I don't know who we can't say for
certain who who applied that uh computer scrubbing software to the computer we can't say for certain all we can say is
that it was used and so if we can't say who was using it it's tough to gauge the
uh intentions of the user I think the thing here too is that sometimes when people hear the wife finds out that he's
having affairs with men and they start thinking well well why would he kill her because of that it's like well no
because that's going to lead to divorce that could lead to separation that could
lead to I mean he's not making a lot of money or even he just lost it in the Heat of the Moment right and the thing
that I think or embarrassment maybe he didn't want people to know the thing that's interesting here though I I I
differ from you where I think that the the the secret life that the state claims he was hiding from his wife I
think that if we're going to look at the state's case as a cake I look at that to
be the cake and that the money motive would have just been icing on the cake it would have been another another
example another reason why but what's interesting is and I didn't see anybody point this out during the portions of
the trial that I was able to view was the defense I think I would have attacked that as the defense because on
one end you're saying wait one motive is money well then that would be premeditated that would be me sitting
here realizing we have money problems how can I fix it oh I'm going to kill my wife right the other is she finds my gay
pornography that I'm a big huge fan of that I'm I'm I'm enjoying that while she's at work I guess I'm gonna edit
that out of the show and and then she she confronts me we get into some kind of argument and then I kill my wife well
that's two different things that's one's in In the Heat of the Moment I lost it and I killed my wife the other is
premeditated right so can one the the state never builds a bridge to connect the I'm sitting at home planning on how
I'm going to kill her to I lost it erupted one night and killed her yeah and one's with a boner one's without
there you go well that is a good segue into the possible murder weapon um the prosecution said that the murder was
most likely committed with a custommade fireplace poker called a blowpoke it had
been a gift to the Petersons from Kathleen's sister but was missing quote unquote missing from the house at the
time of the murder investigation and Kathleen's sister actually gave a bunch of people in their family these blow
poers yeah I think she gave it to her her parents and to some other people in the family um her sister Candace
Kathleen Peter's sister Candace when asked about the blowpoke said yes it was always in the kitchen stating that she
had used it and had observed Kathleen using it and that it was always located in the kitchen well it's a big house so
we have a kitchen that's connected to a little room and there's a little fireplace by that so anytime you see
like home video footage you'll see a little kitchen and you pan and you'll see a fireplace and it's normally was
sitting there um and you actually see at one point in the documentary one of the
daughters going back through old like Christmas footage to try to find out when the poker disappeared mhm well you
have the prosecution which would tell the jury that you've got to realize he meaning Michael Peterson had several
hours that he could clean up and in the prosecution's opinion they think that that is when when the blowpoke was
removed from the property now the problem with that as the defense would later point out the defense claimed that
the blowpoke was later found inside the home right covered with cobwebs and dead
insects implying that police and everyone else had just simply overlooked it it was not hidden said the defense
because it was never used it was not the murder weapon in the first place forensic test revealed that the blowpoke
had been untouched and un removed I'm sorry unmoved for far too long to have been used in the murder yeah and people
ask well how did they not find this well they had a garage like in the basement M
part of the basement had a garage door and he had some car he was working on and it was kind of hidden in the corner
like not hidden on P purpose but probably what happened was he was messing with the fire one day was
working on his car went downstairs working on his car and put the poker beside it and then because there's other
tools and other pipes and stuff around cops just probably just didn't see it they probably also didn't look that hard
I also think that at least that night and the following day they didn't realize that that would be a potential
murder weapon right you know so even if you saw that night or the next day you don't care because it's not of
significance at that time I actually think that what probably happened is it was an item that went unused up near the
fireplace itself and at some point you know that's where things in the basement in the garage that's how they get there
sometimes there are things that are just not used and you go I'll put it out in the garage I'll put it out in the
basement and like you said things start to pile up and collect around it and then it may appear years later to have
been hidden but rather it's just simply placed there well the pointed poker end was missing and the round end that the
poker would go into was bent and so I wonder if he's working on this old car and he has a old Jack and he's not able
to jack it up with a crowbar if he went and grabbed this poker to use it to jack
up the car that's an interesting thought they they don't really present any of that though at at trial yeah but this
guy the other problem with Michael Peterson look we all like to drink it's a good time the problem is it makes your
memory a little blurry that's interesting you say that I was just going to ask you do you find him to be a
forgetful person or is he conveniently forgetful no I think I mean I just I think he's getting he was getting older
and I think he didn't remember a bunch of stuff like he's like when they find the poker he's even like I don't know I
don't know why I would be there or how I got there and it's like maybe it was from you maybe it was from one of your
kids that's the other here's the other issue here we don't have little kids we have adult kids so they're doing a a lot
of stuff in the you know when you're a kid if there was something if there was a hammer misplaced in the garage and
you're 5 years old it's it's from your father was misplacing the hammer chances are you weren't messing with the hammer
but when you're 20 years old and you're messing with cars and who knows what happen one of them might have used it
then they forget I just think he's also he's getting up there in age and he has some effects from that so I think a
couple of things here regarding his memory first I'm going to go back to the wine drinking I I actually think Michael
Peterson probably like to indulge in quite a bit of wine drinking I think him him saying that they had two bottles of
wine that night might have been conservative I think he might have had two bottles of wine that night and she
helped drink some other bottles of wine with oh yeah but isn't that what you do I mean if you're hanging out with your
wife or you're hanging out with some friends it's like you don't count drinks you just drink and talk have a good time
yeah I mean when you're a kid you count drinks when you're 20 you're going ah I'm up to 10 beers all right when you're
adult you actually go less I've only had six you know you had 10 you know what I
mean that's well I I think the a com a combination of a few things one this guy has seen wartime so there could be some
uh PTSD from that the effects of that in very difficult war time I think as well
is there's probably been history of nights consecutive nights of drinking wine or maybe even a lot of wine or
alcohol and once he puts on those fake Metals he got I mean he they probably weigh him down a little bit and he
probably trips and falls a lot because of it he's getting older so I think a combination of those three things lends
to him being forgetful and maybe not so much conveniently forgetful right the other Vibe too and I have no proof of
this this is just a gut feeling that I got when watching the his children and the way that they spoke about their
household and the family and one thing I do want to point out here is it seemed to be a very close family even though it
was a bit of a patchwork quilt it was a close family to the extent that I hear his children Michael's children
referring to Kathleen as mom over and over again and I also hear her daughter refer to Michael as
Dad yeah so the the two adopted kids they call their mom their real mom their birth mom MH and they call Kathleen
their mom mom yeah they they took away the whole stepmom or whatever right and I think and who knows maybe there was a
conversation about it but you know that that's also them showing respect to her she has uh made them a part of her life
she treated them exactly like daughters were going to treat you just like a mother I think that and also you got
these very well-rounded smart intelligent kids they seem well adjusted oh yeah yeah and they seem well adjusted
and they have all this craziness that's going on with their lives you know what I mean like you would expect them to be
like okay maybe maybe our mom died accidentally maybe our father murdered her we're not for sure you would think
that the hinges you know the hinges would come off and they're not and that's a sign
of how you were raised and how you're raised is not always the lessons that you were
taught it's the actions that you were shown right so meaning and then again every friend every family member says
they had a loving marriage that that means something all right Captain we have so much stuff to get to do we have
enough time you think to get into to some of the blood experts that testified during the trial yes okay so the state's
blood spatter expert told the jury that he was certain Kathleen Peterson was beaten to death because the droplet
patterns of blood and spray on the steps and walls of the stairwell were just what he expected to see if you imagine a
weapon Rising striking Rising casting off blood up the wall with each new blow right and blood found on the inside
lower leg of Michael Peterson shorts confirms his theory he said he saw evidence of an attempt to clean up some
of the blood on the stairwell of course his his testimony was much longer and lengthier than this
that's the team Nick simplified version yeah but it's also he's stating that that she's hit with a blunt object
that's what's creating these marks on Kathleen's head mhm but there is no cast off like if she was hit in the head
there would be a castoff meaning blood is coming from an object there'd be a cast off normally that would hit the
ceiling okay from her height mhm so he he's saying that there was cast off on the wall with each new blow and that he
expected to see um yeah and during his testimony he's going to show you a bunch of experiments he did to try to get
these to recreate these patterns mhm and so it's basically that that she gets hit
one time Kathleen then Falls and then all the rest of the hits would happen while she's on the ground MH making the
spot from the inside of his shorts makes sense right because he would be on top of her um or standing over her and that
would be the reason there'd be no cast off on the ceiling so it's it's almost like he has this picture now he has to
figure out how we got there right right if that makes sense and well in in a way
though the defense is going to have to do the same thing or try to do the same thing right when they put on a celebrity
expert witness Dr Henry Lee now I'm sure most of our listeners are familiar with
Henry Lee he's been in several of the more well-known cases including uh he was involved in the OJ Simpson case now
Lee explained that the blood spatter uh he explained it in a theatrical manner he swigged a small amount of katchup
took a deep breath and then spit it out replicating he said the victim of the Fall coughing up blood staggering about
the stairwell yeah the result Al he says blood spatter up the wall of the staircase and on the inside leg of
Peterson shorts as he tended to her Dr Lee told the jury that the copious blood spatter on the back staircase convinced
him Kathleen Peterson had died of a fall not a beating so if you're trying to forgive me if you're trying to picture
this at home what he's talking about is he's saying she fell and as she's laying
there She's coughing up blood she's breathing blood and that is what is projecting that blood onto the wall
behind her right and they also believe at some point she tried to get up which would explain the blood that's on the
bottom of her feet but also explain like if she did try to get up and she slipped
that her body would have moved so she was more outside of the door her head's still inside the doorway again once she
then continues to cough up blood at that position would account for some of the rest of
the blood splatter yeah to to help the jurors imagine how a woman would fall and end up like this that they're
indicating you know keep in mind Kathleen was in flipflops uh she was medicated with valume she might be tipsy
with having drinking wine that night no no not not might be tipsy I mean one of the things that people really should
look up is the effects of volume the effects of a volume are pretty much the same effects as as far as alcohol is
concerned but once you mix both of them times it by 10 let's say right so one of
the major effects is dizziness loss of balance um and so you're talking about a very odd staircasing I almost argue that
that staircasing should have been made where you just go into a little square room turn to the right and then you go
up the steps so there would be no initial stairs Direct ly in front of you so the stairs basically if you walked
into this into this uh stairwell it's almost like a mini spiral staircase it looks like stair like a closet that
you're walking into almost right and you take a couple of steps and then you turn
to your right and you go up the rest of the stairs and the stairs to your right there's quite a bit more stairs there
than what would be at the bottom straight ahead of you now like the captain pointed out you're right it
would have been a safer situation to just have that be a flat Landing there as if you are walking into a closet turn
to your right and then go directly up the stairs without turning so the other thing too is this would be would you
call this like um you know how they have some older homes they have like servant
quarters and and right that's that's probably what it probably what this is is a second staircase for people to work
behind the scenes of a big house like that it's been referred to as a mansion I I think you could could call it that I
think that's somewhat of an accurate description it's a big house but here here's what's weird though too is
because you have this weird landing at the bottom and you have these steps that actually curve whether you fall by
accident whether you fall by G push whether you fall because you got pulled down whether you fall because you got
hit by something once you're in that area you're on multiple levels that aren't level and so by trying to get up
by trying to move you you are then going to be push if there's any blood you're going to be pushing A lot of blood
around you there's it's very possible that you could make a big mess in this small area because of the the floor not
being level not only that the turn and how narrow this space is on a normal staircase you might not be able to spit
or cough that much blood onto the wall because you would be more centered you would be more away from the wall right
and it's man and when you see the scene the the pictures of the scene you're like it's a lot of blood it's a lot it's
it's enough blood to the point where you're like did he beat her head against the wall for an hour like it I mean the
blood is um it I mean it's traumatic to see it and and I can see how the state and how
the investigators jump to this is a murder this is not an accident there's too much blood here I
mean when you see the initial photos the first thought is this is not an accident
right but then it then it becomes odd too because you you have her feet covered and blood and you just wonder if
she Tred to get up again that does not blood on her feet does not determine whether she was hit pushed or she fell
well and the state is going to try to point out to the jurors that a woman in flipflops medicated with volume had been
drinking all all of this could have been a combination that might have led to a fall and the the body motion expert
showed in an animation that Kathleen climbs the stairs to go to bed she suddenly loses
her balance Falls backwards from the fourth step hitting her head on the molding cutting open a nasty wound to
her scalp yeah which wasn't roughly a vshape and she's stunned she tries to get up but she slips in a puddle of her
own blood falls again and then now she's doomed to lay there and bleed out well we also have impact points on the
molding in the staircase mhm and one of the impact points they basically it's it's science the you know this oh I
don't remember what he was called bio I don't know I can't remember but we're with you Captain but what he did
was they they basically made a model of her her height her weight if she fell at
this point then she would have hit that frame the would hit here right she would
have hit here about this height well we have matching impact points based off the the science they
did M so uh I don't know I mean they tried to discredit this guy I thought he was very
creditable but that I think the problem with this guy is the prosecution should have P pushed more okay okay this is
true if she fell from the third step or the fourth step or whatever but all these things are also true if she got
pulled down at that step correct or pushed down at that step so again I believe I think what he is stating
happened or is most likely what happened okay but I think that doesn't prove if somebody helped her her or not and that
doesn't prove other theories whether those are true or not either we get to those later a couple of things
though here regarding what you just stated was you know I didn't count the stairs the number of steps it's it's 15
to 20 is what I think he says in the 911 call but so let's let's use that as as the general math right let's say it's 15
Steps what what I think you point out here which is interesting is that the prosecution once they hear hey she fell
this guy says she fell from the fourth step and this is how where she hit and this explains her injuries where the
prosecution failed then was they said they could have said well that's one out of 15 Steps mathematically it's less
likely that she fell from that exact step than any of these you know what I mean right she she likely could have
fallen from another step and therefore those impact points don't match up with your theory the other thing that you
pointed out that's interesting is that they never bothered to present the idea that maybe she was pushed down the
stairs right that she was at a different location and pushed down the stairs they
stuck with the she was struck with the blunt object and beat to death and the blunt object let's just cover that real
quick the issue with her being struck with a blunt object is going to be that there is no brain swelling there's no
brain uh there's no fractures to the skull there's no fractures to the skull and there's no um brain brain bruising
either which sometimes you won't get a fracture but you have a brain bruise underneath and none of those three three
things happen so you'd have to basically hit so lightly that you don't cause any fracture yeah so for
those of you that have not seen the staircase or are unfamiliar with this case picture this most people are
familiar with a fire poker that you would have at any normal fireplace okay it's I've never had a hollowed one
though so that's the only that's really the only difference between a blow poke and a fire poker is that it's hollowed
so that when you poke at the fire you can blow adding air that would then spread the Sparks or spread the fire uh
inside your fireplace right it's like stoking the fire um so the only difference here is that this item would
be we can assume that it's lighter than a additional fire poker because it's Hollow right but it still has that
Jagged end that end and what the captain's trying to point out is the thing that I can't get over is if
somebody is attacking somebody with a weapon or an object shaped like that that how in the hell are you going to be
able to strike the skin of the skull with enough Force to create these lacerations and these are Big
gashes but be precise enough or or get I guess lucky enough that in the process of creating those lacerations you didn't
fracture the skull at all it seems inconceivable to me well then right but then everybody believes that she had to
be clawed with something maybe fingernails or maybe she was clawed by um the the poker end right um because
she has these lacerations again they're getting up in age you're your skin becomes thinner it is possible that you
could bump into something hard enough that would not create brain bleed brain bruising or fracture but still puncture
the skin and therefore creating you know a massive amount of blood and basically
the defense is not going to deny that these injuries occurred that these lacerations to her scalp occurred but
they're basically their answer is stating look she had several points of impact where her head would have
impacted with something else and it didn't necessarily tear the skin open some of that is the the skin splitting
hit you know once you hit upon impact that it's a cut as well as the skin splitting that created these strange
shaped lacerations on her her the back of her head right the analogy they were using is if you take like a watermelon
or pretty much any melon and you drop it on the ground it's not going to just break in half it's not going to just
have one point of impact it's going to actually split so is it possible that she hit her head against the frame the
framing of the wall and that caused one split or possibly two splits uh I mean it's it's possible I mean and and that's
what um the one eyewitness that did the bio whatever it was called mhm U test that
that they proved that it was possible some circumstantial evidence Captain the officers uh called by the prosecution
noted that the husband Michael Peterson his sneakers and bloody socks they noted
this and stated that this is odd because Michael was barefoot upon paramedics arrival to the home and they asked the
question how did one of those same sneakers leave a bloody footprint on the backside of his dead wife's sweatpants
the side facing the floor there was testimony from other prosecution witnesses that Peterson had tried to
clean a large stain of blood off of the front of his shorts now some other details on the kitchen counter police
saw a well hold on let's stay with his shorts for a second his shorts were soaked in blood right and so again was
he trying to clean off a section or was he wiping his hands off cuz his hands were covered in blood too mhm so that's
where it gets tricky with some of this stuff it's like there's a lot of blood if he was trying to help her if he
picked her up up and got blood all over his hands then he tried to wipe that on his pants wiping that on your pants is
going to look the same as if you're trying to wipe it off your pants some other details on the kitchen counter
police saw a bottle of wine and two glasses neatly arranged uh implying perhaps the couple had passed
a relaxing evening at home sipping wine together the problem with that cozy image though according to the
prosecution is that his dead wife's fingerprints weren't on either glass the prosecutor argued that Peterson had
prominently set out the bottle and glasses to suggest that Kathleen had too much to drink and had tumbled down the
stairs inebriated the defense presented the idea that the police may have had it
in for the husband once they realized he was the same Michael Peterson taking regular pot shots at them in his newsp
paper column accusing them of only solving a small fraction of crimes and not getting a handle on drug trafficking
in the city and maybe this was payback [Music] time make sure you go to True Crime
garage.com go to our store Page the team Nick shirts are on sale because of his birthday in honor of Nick's birthday he
is 21 and a half we celebrated his half birthday also new team captain v-neck they're in the store check those out for
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lately we've been putting out hourlong episodes so if you're looking for some more
Garage in your life get off the Record join us back here in the garage tomorrow for part two of the staircase until then
be good be kind and don't [Music] [Applause] [Music] live you can live out your Master Chef
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The Staircase /// Part 1 /// 243

Part 1 of 2

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Kathleen Peterson was smart, vibrant, professionally successful, and by all accounts a superb daughter, mother, sister and friend. On December 9th, 2001 Kathleen died mysteriously in her home. Was it an accident or murder? In 2004 HBO documented her death and the trial and conviction of Kathleen’s husband, Michael Peterson. In 2018 Netflix documented the release of Michael Peterson. This has been by far one of our most requested cases. HBO and Netflix covered “The Staircase” and this week True Crime Garage is on the case! Beer of the Week - Secret Stairs by Trillium Brewing CompanyGarage Grade - 4 and a quarter bottle caps out of 5

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses Kathleen Peterson's death, Michael Peterson's trial, and the evidence surrounding their tumultuous marriage.

Key points

The 911 Call. Michael Peterson calls 911 after finding his wife at the bottom of the stairs.
Suspicious Scene. Detective Holland arrives to find a scene that appears suspicious rather than accidental.
Autopsy Results. Kathleen's autopsy revealed severe injuries consistent with a homicide.
Michael Peterson's Credibility. The prosecution attacked Peterson's credibility over his military service claims.
Financial Motives. The prosecution argued financial issues could be a motive for Kathleen's murder.
The Escort's Testimony. Brad, a male escort, testified about his interactions with Michael Peterson.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's good to be seen.

Nick's reminder about being present with others.

1:51WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

70/ 100High tension

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