The Staircase /// Part 1 /// 243 | Forensic Files

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[Music] thank you foreign [Music] [Music] please please [Music] Kathleen Peterson was born February 21st
1953 in Greensboro North Carolina she grew up in Lancaster Pennsylvania and graduated first in her class at high
school also voted Girl of the Year so it's quite obvious she was well liked and respected by her fellow classmates
she moved to Durham North Carolina to attend Duke University it's been reported she was the first female
student accepted into Duke's engineering school so a very bright young woman she
met her first husband Fred Atwater at Duke they had a daughter Caitlyn their marriage did not last later she met
Michael Peterson Michael graduated from duke as well after extensive schooling and education Peterson took a job with
the U.S Department of Defense to research military involvement in Vietnam he also had a first marriage to a lady
named Patricia Sue she taught Elementary School on the Rhine Maine Air Force Base
in West Germany they had two children Clayton and Todd in 1968 Peterson enlisted in the Marines
and served in Vietnam in 1971 he received an honorable discharge with the rank of Captain after a car accident
left him with a permanent disability Michael and Patricia lived in Germany for some time there they befriended
Elizabeth and George Ratliff and their two children Margaret and Martha now unfortunately George would pass away
and after his death the Petersons and the Ratliff families became very close when Elizabeth Ratliff died in 1985
Michael became the guardian of her two children after Michael and Patricia divorced in 1987 Clayton and Todd the
two sons went to live with their mother Patricia and Margaret and Martha stayed with Michael who then moved to Durham
North Carolina Clayton and Todd would later also join their father okay so both are divorced
then when later Michael and Kathleen meet and then they are together in 1992 the couple bought a 14-room dream home
on Cedar Street and five years later Kathleen and Michael married in 1997. now our murder case and the day in
question takes place in 2001. by this time Kathleen is and has been a successful business executive for Norton
making about a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year Peterson Michael Peterson wrote three novels based around
his experiences during the Vietnamese conflict The Immortal Dragon a time of war and a bitter peace are the three
titles of his books he also co-authored several other books and he worked as a newspaper columnist for the Durham
Herald Sun where his columns became known for their criticism of of police and Durham County District Attorney
James Harden Jr mainly because of what Peterson suggested was a lack of ability for the local law in order to solve
cases and get convictions let's start with the timeline of the murders so we'll start a day before the actual
event so on Friday December 7 2001 Kathleen takes the day off from work that afternoon the Peterson's Michael
and Kathleen go Christmas shopping Friday evening the Petersons attend an event for the North Carolina Independent
party Michael was involved in politics at different points in his life so it makes
sense that they would be attending this event now on Saturday December 8th at approximately 3 30 p.m hundreds of files
are deleted from Michael Peterson's PC with a disc purging program called quick clean at 4 41 PM Michael arrives at the
YMCA gym at approximately 6 PM the married couple talks about renting a movie for the
night at 6 59 PM Michael rents America's America's Sweethearts at Blockbuster Video
at 9 45 PM Christine Tomasetti arrives at the Peterson's home to take Todd their son to a party she sees Kathleen
and Michael sharing a bottle of wine at this time around 10 20 p.m Christine and
Todd leave for this party at 10 40 PM the password at Water logs into the Peterson's PC
Michael Peterson says that they finished the movie probably around 11 p.m and then they went to the kitchen and talked
for a while Michael later says that the two would talk at night for two to three
hours sometimes and that he knows that they drank two bottles of wine that night he does not give a more exact
amount of time that they are in the kitchen drinking and talking but pay attention because the following times
are extremely important to our case at 11 08 PM Norton Network's co-worker Helen prislinger later testified that
she talked to Kathleen Peterson at this time and that Kathleen did not sound intoxicated and did not seem abnormal in
any way she did not sense that Kathleen and Michael Peterson were fighting at this time and he heard Kathleen ask her
husband for his email address Miss pritzlinger said Kathleen needed a document for a teleconference scheduled
for 10 a.m the next day and was expecting an email with that a doc with that document attached the email was in
fact sent to Michael Peterson's email address at 10 53 PM prislinger's email arrives the blank emails PowerPoint
attachment was never opened the attachment was titled readiness on Sunday December 9 2001 maybe sometime
after midnight the Petersons drank and talked outside near the pool please note it is about 50 degrees out at night that
night at this time according to Michael after talking in the kitchen the two went to the pool and quote we were
talking here indicates near the pool for a fair amount of time again Captain not
giving us a great exact understanding of how long he believes they were out there
and at what time did they go to the pool but indicating that they were outside talking another statement he actually
says that they're out on the porch for a while then they go out to the pool area
but Michael was uh pipe smoker so he would smoke his pipe and talk outside so yes it's kind of
chilly outside but he's smoking I think Kathleen might have been a smoker maybe on some level you know you know we
have those people that smoke when they drink right um and I say that because later there
was some nicotine found in her body so she could have joined him for a smoke or just took a puff or two uh when they're
outside having their conversation but there's also a lot of people that when they drink it's like uh right when they
start drinking they don't need one but once they get past a certain point they need many cigarettes so right away I
don't see I don't have any red flags no major red flags going off regarding Michael Peterson's statements about that
night just I mean other than the computer being cleaned right right that seems odd but on top of that I mean as
far as what's going down at this point in the evening 11 o'clock 12 O'Clock maybe a little bit later
having watched the docu-series the staircase they didn't directly show this but often when Michael Peterson is kind
of doing the one-on-one thing with the camera I almost always see like little red
stains on the side of his lips like this comes off to me as a guy that very much
likes drinking his wine um and so him saying that him and his wife were hanging out on a Saturday
night having a couple bottles of wine does not strike me as weird it actually I I think this is probably exactly what
was going down at that time and we also have the eyewitness that came in to pick
up the sun says hey I saw the two hanging out and they were drinking together now according to Michael
this is where I start to wonder about things because according to Michael at approximately 2 30 a.m he leaves the
pool area he goes inside and he finds his wife at the bottom of the stairs go back what time did she leave the pool
area well that's what's a little bit unclear to me because he states that we were out here for a fair amount of time
talking we were talking together and he estimates that she could have left as long as 45 minutes to an hour before he
left the pool area or it could have been as little as 30 minutes from when he left the pool area but during that time
sometime during that time Kathleen leaves the pool area and heads inside for bed Michael stays outside to drink
and has a smoke like you said then Kathleen at some point suffers multiple deep complex lacerations and avulsions
to the scalp multiple small abrasions and contusions to the face and a fracture with associate Hemorrhage of
the thyroid cartilage in the neck so quite a bit of injuries during this time right now depending on which report you
read and this is not a major deal because we're talking about a difference of 60 seconds or so some Reports say at
2 40 a.m some say 2 41 am Michael Peterson calls 9-1-1 and that's the 9-1-1 call that you heard at the start
of the show now the operator picks up and says Durham 911 where is your emergency to which Michael replies uh
1810 Cedar Street please operator what's wrong Peterson my wife had an accident she's still breathing operator what kind
of accident Michael Peterson she fell down the stairs she's still breathing please come
9-1-1 is she conscious Peterson what 9-1-1 is she conscious Peterson no she's not conscious please
9-1-1 how many stairs did she fall down Michael Peterson what what 9-1-1 how many stairs Peterson uh uh uh
he's failing to give an answer there regarding the stairs I get this doesn't seem like a question
he might have been expecting whether he's guilty or innocent the 911 operator tells him to calm down calm down sir
calm down Peterson no damned 16-20 I don't know please get somebody here right away please 9-1-1 okay somebody's
dispatching the ambulance while I'm asking you questions Peterson it's uh oh it's Forest Hills okay please please
9-1-1 okay sir someone is dispatching the ambulance is she awake now Peterson um um 9-1-1 hello hello Peterson
um um um now that's the end of that call asked if she's awake now Peterson does not give an answer and for whatever
reason we don't know but the call is ended 2 46 a.m Michael Peterson calls 9-1-1 a second time 9-1-1 Durham 9-1-1
what is your emergency Peterson where are they it's 1810 Cedar she's not breathing please please would you hurry
up 9-1-1 sir Peterson can you hear me 9-1-1 sir Peterson yes 9-1-1 sir calm down they're on their way
can you tell me for sure she's not breathing sir hello hello at 2 48 a.m paramedics arrive and
Kathleen Peterson is found dead in a hallway at 3 A.M police and detectives begin to
arrive and search 1810 Cedar Street at 3 24 a.m investigators secure the scene now between 4 15 and 5 A.M
some point Peterson logs on to his office computer and he's overheard mumbling something about email
at 5am Michael Peterson calls his attorney now let's go into some more detailed accounts of what took place during this
time shall we so we have James Rose and Ron Page paramedics with the Durham County Emergency Medical Services they
arrive at the Peterson's Residence at this same time Michael's son Todd Peterson arrived the Peterson's house is
a large estate home with an open four-year entrance the paramedics found the front door open and noticed blood on
it straight ahead through the front door is the large main staircase leading to the second floor
immediately to the left after entering is a front hallway leading down to the kitchen
off of this hallway near the kitchen is an enclosed narrow stairwell also leading to the second floor yeah there's
a turn in in the staircase as well yeah and upon entering the house the paramedics observe Kathleen lying at the
bottom of this stairwell her legs were out into the hallway and her head was just inside the encased open door frame
where the first few steps are located now the stairwell runs parallel to the hallway but has a few angled steps as
you had just mentioned at the bottom designed to open up the staircase perpendicular into that hallway
Michael was seen standing over Kathleen in a semi-neese bent position with blood
on his hands arms legs and feet he wore shorts and a t-shirt this t-shirt is partially soaked blood soaked with
splatter spots when paramedics arrived at Kathleen's body Todd the son tried to pull his father away stating dad she's
dead the paramedics are here paramedics Rose and Paige quickly determined that Kathleen had no pulse
and she was not breathing Michael stated that he had gone outside to turn off the
lights came back in and then found her at the bottom of the steps paramedic Rose testified later that
there was an enormous amount of blood he said dried blood was on the steps and also on the wall and it also looked like
it had been wiped away or wiped on it had been smeared instead of just blood droplets on the wall he testified
that based on his experience there was an unusual amount of blood for a fall and that the most severe injury he had
seen from a fall was a broken neck the blood under Kathleen's head had already clotted and started to harden so
detective Holland was asked to give his opinion on this scene yeah he's from the
homicide unit and they wanted to bring him in because they were a little confused about what they are seeing
right there's we have a call that a a person fell down the stairs that there's been an accident yet they're seeing a
lot of blood and they're seeing blood in different places throughout the house which is calling it they're calling the
scene suspicious right so Holland says that he received a page approximately around three o'clock in the morning and
that he was going to arrive at this death investigation he said that the call he received came in as someone had
fallen down the steps but upon arrival detective Holland says this does not look like an accident forming an
immediate opinion detective Holland identified himself to Mr Peterson and even shook his hand and explained to him
that he was sorry for his loss but that it appeared that the scene looked suspicious and it needed to be processed
at trial detective Holland was asked was Michael helpful at that point did he answer your initial questions detective
Holland said no no he pretty much was very quiet kept to himself didn't say a whole lot now police videotaped the
scene as the officers found it Michael Peterson's tennis shoes and socks by the foot of the body white towels soaked red
with blood from Kathleen's injury to the back of her head blood smears up the oak
staircase and on the walls above detective Holland called for a crime scene analyst and expert in blood
spatter who in turn told the detective he felt strongly that this was a homicide
for the next 20 hours officers meticulously photographed and documented what they now regarded as a crime scene
there was a small amount of blood outside on the walkway blood stains on the front door the blood on the kitchen
sink a wine bottle and glasses on the counter every inch of the three acre property
was combed luminal testing revealed bloody Footprints leading from Kathleen Peterson's body into the laundry room
then going to the kitchen refrigerator and sink then moving to a wine glass cabinet which also had blood on it the
footprints mysteriously stopped at the cabinet they just stopped yeah later at trial the defense would challenge the
cops on what they didn't do at the Peterson house the police didn't tape off the area of the stairwell until 3 34
a.m almost an hour after the call came in and by then it was too late Peterson's lawyers criticized what they
called sloppy police procedures the blood in that area had been altered the scene at the house had been contaminated
example Michael goes up to Kathleen with the police watching hugs her Todd takes him
the son puts him on the couch where there's blood transfer and then Todd says can I get some soda in a glass and
the police say sure and he goes there he goes Todd walking around the kitchen with blood on his hands so at trial
police would point out that they found blood in suspicious locations mainly in different areas of the kitchen right and
that these were red flags however as I just stated you can see you can kind of see why there may have been blood in
strange locations throughout the kitchen and in my opinion the blood in the kitchen area for example was a complete
irrelevancy once you established that there was contamination there in the kitchen with the police standing right
by well they also did tests to make sure that there there wasn't any cleaning products used in the kitchen to clean up
any evidence and there was none found later that day Dr Deborah radish a pathologist with the office of the North
Carolina medical examiner performed an autopsy on Kathleen's body toxicology results showed that Kathleen's blood
alcohol content was .07 percent the autopsy report concluded that Kathleen sustained a matrix of severe injuries
including a fracture of the thyroid neck cartilage and seven lacerations caused by a homicidal assault to the top and
back of her head consistent with blows from a blunt object the result of repeated blows with a light yet rigid
weapon and had died from blood loss 90 minutes to two hours after sustaining the injuries they also found that she
took a Valium that night later Michael Peterson's defense disputed this Theory according to their analysis Kathleen
skull had not been fractured by the blows nor was she brain damaged which was inconsistent with injury sustained
in a beating death forensic expert Dr Henry Lee hired by the defense testified that the blood spatter evidence was
consistent with an accidental fall down the stairs police investigators concluded that the injuries were
inconsistent with such an accident we'll get right back to the staircase right after this quick beer break
[Music] foreign [Music] cheers mates cheers to all cheers to everybody how about some theories
Captain let's get into some reasons why the prosecution and law enforcement would believe that Michael Peterson had
motive to kill his wife okay so we have Durham County District Attorney James Harden Jr and the prosecution attacked
Peterson's credibility focusing on his alleged misreporting of his military service and what they described as
Michael's secret life and we will get into that in a bit but first Michael's credibility during a campaign for mayor
Michael P Michael Peterson claimed he was awarded a silver star a bronze star with Valor and two purple hearts he had
all of these medals but said he did not have the documentation for them he claimed he received one Purple Heart
after being hit by shrapnel when another Soldier stepped on a land mine and the other when he was shot Peterson later
admitted his War injury was not the result of the shrapnel wound in Vietnam but was the result of a vehicle accident
in Japan where he was stationed after the war as a military policeman okay so he was a military policeman he's hit by
a car or he's in a car accident and then he claims that he got a purple heart for that but not for that but for
something else well when he's running for mayor he claims that he sustained big time Big Time wounds during the
course of War he was inflicted with shrapnel and then he was also shot which is a much bigger difference than being
in a car accident so we have a liar on our hands well not only that and these are Big lies I mean this is also a guy
that wrote three books about the Vietnam War right right fictitious books I believe but
they centered around the Vietnam War well some articles refer to him as a war hero
um I don't know if I would go so far he's a war zero yeah I mean I mean technically I guess in my mind anybody
that serves overseas serves this great country is some form of hero the problem I have here is he's elevating himself to
a whole different level and he was obviously not deserving of any of that credit that he was willing to take I
mean we have we have men and women that come home to their families in caskets right that receive purple hearts that
receive some of the awards that he is claiming that he earned and he didn't and and like you said a
liar and these are Big lies another motive for Kathleen's murder would be a 1.5 million dollar life insurance policy
the prosecution witness uh Raymond young said that the Petersons were spending about a hundred thousand dollars a year
more than they made during the each during each of the three years before Kathleen Peterson's death young also
testified that when Kathleen Peterson died the Petersons were carrying more than
142 thousand dollars in credit card and credit line debt spread across 20 active
accounts now the defense objected to this unsuccessfully that Young's credit card information essentially a report of
a report amounted to hearsay testimony the defense also complained that young did not distinguish between different
kinds of expenses such as recurring bills and discretionary purchases during his analysis of Peterson's cash flow
the defense pointed out that young had counted checks written to buy stocks as expenses but didn't count the sale of
those stocks as quote normal income the defense also questioned young about why he did not account for the thousands of
dollars that flowed through Kathleen Peterson's accounts when Norton networks her employer reimbursed her for business
expenses using Young's own figures of the couple's assets mortgage liabilities and
credit card debt the defense showed that the Petersons had a combined net worth of more than 1.4 million dollars defense
lawyer Thomas Mayer asked as they sat there that December weekend even with your analysis this couple was worth more
than 1.4 million dollars isn't that correct that's right young replied so again the prosecution is trying to prove
that they had some money issues and that would be the motive because then he could collect the insurance check
that kind of backfired on the prosecution so their next theory for motive is going to be kind of a dark
secret yeah this this Theory would be that Kathleen's murder uh uh was motivated by the discovery of Michael's
Secret Life by Kathleen on the night of the murder so the prosecutor believed that Kathleen stumbled upon something
explosive on the Peterson's home computer downloaded images of naked men there was
two approximately 2 000 of them there were also Liaisons outside of the marriage a series of email exchanges
between Michael Peterson and a local male prostitute he had found through the internet that Kathleen didn't know about
the other man introduced in trial was Brad from Raleigh so he's at wait 2 000 downloaded
naked pictures of dudes correct pornography on his computer that's a lot of twig and berries well this guy Brad
from Raleigh was a 20 year old 26 year old excuse me former Soldier and I think he went by the moniker top Soldier his
website pick was a Beefcake pose complete with dog tags according to the prosecutor by late summer 2001 four
months before Kathleen's death Michael Peterson agreed to get with Brad for sex at Peterson's home Brad on the stand
said we were to hook up I believe on September 5th 2001. the prosecutor asked and what was the price you quoted him
Brad said I believed it was 150 dollars per hour but Brad told the court when the appointed day came around he was
tired and canceled the prosecutor so you just simply didn't contact him back at all Brad stated I don't think I
contacted him that night I have found out that I contacted him about 25 days later to apologize for not showing up
prosecutor asked after you contacted him to apologize for not showing up did you
have further communication with him Brad no ma'am Brad testified that he and Peterson had never met until they were
in court together for the prosecutor the bran up episode was to show that the marriage was anything but Rock Solid and
the trail of email messages that became the quote trigger that the state talked about I want to throw out something a
little strange that I I noticed during the documentary one Brad is very Charming on the stand
it's telling jokes he's smart yeah and uh and a good looking guy and at some point Michael Peterson's daughters are
are listening to his testimony and one of the daughters is kind of glowing and the way a girl would be listening to an
attractive guy talk and be Charming you know she's kind of being spending by him
if that makes any sense and then and then and then he says something to basically remind the courtroom that he's
a gay man and her face like shrivels up well I I hate to say this but it's Durham North Carolina
um this is tough for some people in the audience to identify with let's say let's continue
on with with some of the things that Brad said um what do I mean by that I mean exactly
what I said it's Durham North Carolina this testimony uh the thought of a bisexual married man going outside of
his marriage is going to be tough for people in that audience to identify with now the defense was asked was that an
unusual occurrence for you to have or plan to have sexual relations with them with married men right Brad stated to
the contrary married men are in the majority of most of the clients that I saw when I was an escort the defense
with regards to the kinds of men that you tended to have escort relationships with can you give us some indication as
to their professions for example Brad answered sure usually they are professionals because my fees are quite
High I saw doctor attorneys and one judge and the judge says not this judge right
and it was noted it was noted in the court transcript the defense then asked did a number of the men the married men
that you had sexual relations with have wives that knew they were bisexual Brad stated I believe most of them did from
my experience yeah the defense asked in your experience was it unusual for a wife married to a bisexual man to know
that he was bisexual Brad's answer was not at all the defense asked was it unusual for a
bisexual man using your services to be in a happy marriage Brad answered not at all most of the men who would see me
would have their time with me and then go back to their happy healthy lives It's Not Unusual to be loved by anyone
the defense asked was there any kind of personal relationship involved between you and Michael Peterson Brad stated no
sir I believe in one of the emails it was very explicit that there would be no emotions involved no personal
relationships involved and it would be strictly physical yeah I mean I think he also stated he loved his wife and they
had a really good marriage you're you're exactly right the defense asks did Michael Peterson ever do or say anything
either on the phone or by email to indicate that he was not in love with Kathleen Peterson Brad answered to the
contrary in his emails unlike most of my clients he indicated that he had a great
relationship most clients don't want to say anything about their relationship he
said he had a warm relationship with his wife and nothing would ever destroy that
the defense showed the jury Peterson's own words and an email to Brad which stated quote I am married very happily
married with a dynamite wife yeah the prosecution alleged that Kathleen would have been infuriated by learning that
her husband was having an extramarital relationship not with another woman but a man their statement that once she
learned this information that an argument ensued and then a homicide occurred the defense argued that
Kathleen accepted Michael's bisexuality and that the marriage was very happy a position supported by Michael and
Kathleen's children and other friends and Associates now we do know that Caitlyn so Caitlyn is technically
Kathleen's daughter from her first marriage Caitlyn stopped supporting Michael Peterson when this information
was to close disclosed so let's jump back to the children shall we we have children of Michael Peterson from his
first marriage that's Clayton and Todd his two sons and they support him correct and then we have children of
George and Elizabeth Ratliff who are both deceased but were raised by Michael Peterson this is Margaret and
Martha yeah they both support him as well correct then we have the daughter of Kathleen Peterson uh Caitlin Atwater
she initially proclaimed Michael's innocence and publicly supported him but after learning of Peterson's bisexuality
and after reading her mother's autopsy report right she broke off from the rest of the family this motive is kind of
hard to decide if it could even work as a motive because you don't know if his wife knew
about his bisexual yeah I agree Captain for me it kind of like you know I I fancy myself a pretty open-minded dude
and for me it really just kind of put me at the top of the fence you know where I
could see one side and see the other side and mainly practically agree with both sides you
know I think what they did here is I think the prosecution made a strong case that this could be a motive I think the
defense did a good job of stating maybe this is no motive at all right because if she knew and she and that was the
arrangement that their marriage had where and even Brad the escort said that he felt that most of his clients were
mainly heterosexual with some homosexual tendencies and so it was just kind of you know maybe a percentage well they're
80 percent uh straight uh 20 gay or whatever it is and and so if that's the arrangement that
their marriage had then who are we to say how they should live their life or or how they should conduct their
marriage right that's on them but the issue here then becomes as far as like the children go
did you have any knowledge of this did you did you even have a thought process that
your father was doing this so that would be so I can see why this children are supportive I can see why they would not
be and because I also think it if you didn't know and now they're saying that your your mom knew but you had no proof
well again we have him lying about his War record now he was not you know not lying but not
telling the full truth to his children about his sexuality so so I don't question that so much
because I don't know that I don't know that if I had children if I would share you know the things that I'm into with
them I don't think there's that's a weird conversation to have this podcast no so I I don't I I don't know what I
mean is that they might feel like it was another way of being lied to is what I'm saying
no I agree with that but what I'm stating is that I don't find the children not knowing to be weird right
you know I I I don't of course if they knew then obviously I'd be convinced that there was no problem with this
thing but if they didn't know that doesn't to me suggest that there is a problem and actually furthermore you
know somebody was talking to said hey so really the sole question regarding the state's case is did Kathleen know or did
she not know and I said well I see what you're saying there but however it's not
necessarily did she know or did she not know it's was she okay with it if she did know right and they're trying to
present a motive the problem with this is especially in a marriage there could be thousands of different
motives that we would never know because there could be hundreds of conversations
that they had in private that nobody even knew about so I mean so it's like they're just trying to establish a
motive and like you said they do a good job prosecution does of presenting it defense does a great job of deflecting
it and so yeah it kind of puts you on the the center of the post yeah and I think what they did was they both
present their side and then it's left up to the members of the jury to figure out
what side they fall to and what they believe actually occurred one thing though that I do question here is his
defense was very good I thought it was a good team a smart group of people they questioned a lot of things they defended
him very well the thing that that did not happen and I know it doesn't exist because I know
that they were smart enough that they would have presented this at trial was they couldn't prove that Kathleen
Peterson knew that Michael was bisexual right they couldn't prove that Kathleen was okay with it so you know that a
conversation took place between the the head defense attorney and Michael Peterson that there's a sit down in a
closed room where he says to Michael Michael is there anything anywhere any proof that you can show me that Kathleen
knew and that she was okay with it or right was there any proof that you can show me that she at least knew that gets
us over one speed bump right and so that didn't exist and when you have Michael Peterson who talks about this
he's a little vague too don't you wouldn't you agree he says yeah she knew uh did you guys talk about it no it
wasn't really something we spoke about but again but this is a this is a tricky thing because these are conversations
behind closed doors and could it be a situation where she's like okay I understand that I mean they could have
been you know they develop into a relationship and he says to her I have this side of me that I like to explore
and she might have said that's fine with me don't want to hear about it right you know just as long as
you're not being with other women right that could have been the agreement who knows I mean uh and that's
I don't know it's it's it's very tricky and again though I stick by what I said where it's less important that Kathleen
knew it's more important that she was either okay with it or not okay well let's start with the idea of the should
this even be been been allowed in the courtroom and I believe the judge said later that he almost wishes that he
would have just said no we can't talk about this and the reason why was because he was afraid
you know it's in the South would it be present prejudicial basically right basically if you bring up that this guy
is is bisexual would there just be one or two people on the jury that would just
find him guilty because he's bisexual right and I think for me if I were the judge or the prosecutor my argument that
it would would it be in the trial and I understand don't send a weird email that
I'm claiming that the judge and prosecutor work together right I understand the way the system works but
what I mean by this is it's a part of the state's case right the state's case is that Kathleen Peterson that night
stumbled upon information she found on his computer that suggested that this kind of activity was going on therefore
she confronted him about that that night they got into an argument and he beat her to death right that's the state's
case yeah but that's because the other motive wasn't going to stick so well so when they found this I think it was more
about let's make this a part of our motive so we can bring up the fact that he has almost this double life and and I
because I do think that shows something if she didn't know about the double life
and his kids didn't know about the double life and it seemed like nobody nobody knew
about the double life then it's like then what is HE capable of you don't know because you don't really know the
real person I agree with that but what I mean by it goes with the state's cases if you
follow the timeline of events of known events that night not what Michael Peterson says but what others state
right is that Kathleen Peterson was using his computer that night to receive information from her work we know that
from her co-worker who says I overheard Kathleen asking him for his email address and we have the password being
accessing the computer and so the state's case would be this was a computer that she didn't often use or
didn't regularly use maybe used it for the first time who knows and discovers this information there that night and
when confronting Michael about it it turns into an argument that leads to him killing her yeah I think the other thing
too about this is we have some kind of record that he's trying to use software to clean the computer so
what did the prosecution find what did the investigation find on his computer afterwards and was that supposed to been
cleaned off of his computer and wasn't well there was I mean there was at least all of those pornographic pictures of
men right were they were they supposed to be wiped away I don't I don't know what his intent I
don't know who we can't say for certain who who applied that computer scrubbing software to the computer we can't say
for certain all we can say is that it was used and so if we can't say who was using it it's tough to gauge the uh
intentions of the user I think the thing here too is that sometimes when people hear the wife finds out that he's having
affairs with men and they start thinking well well why would he kill her because of that it's
like well no because that's going to lead to divorce that could lead to separation that could lead to I mean
he's not making a lot of money or even he just lost it in the Heat of the Moment right and the thing that I
think for embarrassment maybe he didn't want people to know the thing that's interesting here though I I differ from
you where I think that the the the secret life that the state claims he was hiding from his wife I think that if
we're going to look at the state's case as a cake I look at that to be the cake and that the money motive would have
just been icing on the cake it would have been another another example another reason why but what's
interesting is and I didn't see anybody point this out during the portions of the trial that I was able to view
was the defense I think I would have attacked that as the defense because on one end you're saying wait one motive is
money well then that would be premeditated that would be me sitting here realizing we have money problems
how can I fix it oh I'm gonna kill my wife right the other is she finds my gay pornography that I'm a big huge fan of
that I'm I'm I'm enjoying that while she's at work I guess I'm gonna edit that out of the show and and then she
she confronts me we get into some kind of argument and then I kill my wife well that's two different things that's all
one's in In the Heat of the Moment I lost it and I killed my wife the other is premeditated right so can one the
state never Brill builds a bridge to connect the I'm sitting at home planning on how I'm going to kill her to I lost
it erupted one night and killed her yeah and one's with a boner one's without there you go well that is a good segue
into the possible murder weapon the prosecution said that the murder was most likely committed with a custom-made
fireplace poker called a blowpoke it had been a gift to the Petersons from Kathleen's sister but was missing quote
unquote missing from the house at the time of the murder investigation and Kathleen's sister actually gave a bunch
of people in their family these blow pokers yeah I think she gave it to her her parents and to some other people in
the family um her sister Candace Kathleen Peter's sister Candace when asked about the
blowpoke said yes it was always in the kitchen stating that she had used it and had observed Kathleen using it and that
it was always located in the kitchen wall it's a big house so we have a kitchen that's connected to a little room and
there's a little fireplace by that so anytime you see like home video footage you'll see a little
kitchen and you pan and you'll see a fireplace and it's normally it was sitting there and you actually see at
one point in the documentary one of the daughters going back through old like Christmas footage to try to find out
when the poker disappeared well you have the prosecution which would tell the jury that you've got to realize he
meaning Michael Peterson had several hours that he could clean up and in the prosecution's opinion they think that
that is when the blowpoke was removed from the property now the problem with that as the defense would later point
out the defense claimed that the blowpoke was later found inside the home covered with cobwebs and dead insects
implying that police and everyone else had just simply overlooked it it was not hidden said the defense because it was
never used it was not the murder weapon in the first place forensic tests revealed that the blowpoke had been
untouched and unremoved I'm sorry unmoved for far too long to have been used in the murder yeah and people ask
well how did they not find this well they had a garage like in the basement part of the basement had a garage door
and he had some car he was working on it was kind of hidden in the corner like not hidden on person purpose but
probably what happened was he was messing with the fire one day was working on his car went downstairs
working on his car and put the poker beside it and then because there's other tools and other pipes and stuff around
cops just probably just didn't see it they probably also didn't look that hard I also think that at least that night
and the following day they didn't realize that that would be a potential murder weapon right you know so even if
you saw it that night or the next day you don't care because it's not of significance at that time I actually
think that what probably happened is it was an item that went unused up near the
fireplace itself and at some point you know that's where things in the basement in the garage that's how they get there
sometimes they're things that are just not used and you go I'll put it out in the garage I'll put it out in the
basement and like you said things start to pile up and collect around it and then it may appear years later to have
been hidden but rather it's just simply placed there well the pointed poker end was missing
and the round in that the poker would go into was bent and so I wonder if he's working on this old car and he has an
old Jack and he's not able to jack it up with the Crowbar if he went and grabbed
this poker to use it to jack up the car that's an interesting thought they they don't really present any of that though
at at trial yeah but this guy the other problem with Michael Peterson look we all like to drink it's a good time the
problem is it makes your memory do you a little blurry that's interesting you say
that I was just going to ask you do you find him to be a forgetful person or is he conveniently forgetful
no I think I mean I just I think he's gonna he was getting older and I think he didn't remember a bunch of stuff like
he's like when they find the poker he's even like I don't know I don't know why I would be there right or how it got
there and it's like maybe it was from you maybe it was from one of your kids that's the other here's the other issue
here we don't have little kids we have adult adults so they're doing a lot of stuff in the you know when you're a kid
if there was something if there was a hammer misplaced in the garage and you're five years old it's it's from
your father was misplacing the hammer chances are you weren't messing with the hammer but when you're 20 years old
and you're messing with cars and who knows what happened one of them might have used it then they forget I just
think he's also he's getting up there in age and he has some effects from that so I think
a couple of things here regarding his memory first I'm gonna go back to the wine drinking I
I actually think Michael Peterson probably like to indulge in quite a bit of wine drinking I think him saying that
they had two bottles of wine that night might have been conservative I think he might have had two bottles of wine that
night and she helped drink some other bottles of wine well yeah but isn't that what you do I mean if you're hanging out
with your wife or you're hanging out with some friends it's like you don't count drinks you just drink and talk and
have a good time yeah I mean when you're a kid you count drinks when you're 20 you're going I'm up to 10 beers all
right when you're adult you actually go less I've only had six you know you had ten
you know what I mean that's well I I think the com a combination of a few things one this guy has seen wartime so
there could be some uh PTSD from that the effects of that very difficult war time I think as well is there's probably
been a history of Knight's consecutive nights of drinking wine or maybe even a lot of wine or alcohol and once he puts
on those fake medals he got I mean he they're probably weigh him down a little bit and he probably trips and falls a
lot because of it he's getting older so I think a combination of those three things lends to him being forgetful and
maybe not so much conveniently forgetful right the other Vibe too and I have no proof of this this is just a gut feeling
that I got when watching the his children and the way that they spoke about their household and the family and
one thing I do want to point out here is it seemed to be a very close family even
though it was a bit of a patch work quilt it was a close family to the extent that I hear his children
Michael's children referring to Kathleen as mom over and over again and I also hear her daughter refer to Michael as
Dad yeah so the the two adopted kids they call their mom their real mom their birth mom they call Kathleen their mom
mom yeah they they took away the whole stepmom or whatever right and I think and who knows maybe there was a
conversation about it but you know that that's also us them showing respect to her
she is uh made them a part of her life she treated them exactly like daughters we're going to treat you just like a
mother I think that's and also you got he's very well-rounded smart intelligent kids they seem well adjusted
oh yeah yeah and they seem well adjusted and they have all this craziness that's
going on with their lives you know what I mean like you would expect them to be like okay
maybe maybe our mom died accidentally maybe our father murdered her we're not for sure you would think that the hinges
you know the hinges would come off and they're not and that's a sign of how you were raised and how your race is
not always the lessons that you were taught it's the actions that you were shown
right so meaning and then again every friend every family member says they had a
loving marriage that that means something all right Captain we have so much stuff to get to do we have enough
time you think to get into some of the blood experts that testified during the trial yes okay so the state's blood
spatter expert told the jury that he was certain Kathleen Peterson was beaten to
death because the droplet patterns of blood and spray on the steps and walls of the stairwell were just what he
expected to see if you imagine a weapon Rising striking Rising casting off blood
up the wall with each new blow right and blood found on the inside lower leg of Michael Peterson's shorts confirms his
theory he said he saw evidence of an attempt to clean up some of the blood on the
stairwell of course his his testimony was much longer and lengthier than this that's
the team Nick simplified version yeah but it's also he's stating that she's hit with a blunt
object that's what's creating these marks on Kathleen's head but there is no cast off
like if she was hit in the head there would be a cast off meaning blood is coming from an object there'd be a cast
off normally that would hit the ceiling okay from her height [Music] so he he's saying that there was cast
off on the wall with each new blow and that he expected to see um yeah and during his testimony he's
going to show you a bunch of experiments he did to try to get these to recreate these patterns and so
it's basically that that she gets hit one time Kathleen then Falls and then all the rest of the hits would happen
while she's on the ground making the spot from the inside of his shorts makes sense right because he would be on top
of her um or standing over her and that would be the reason there'd be no cast off
on the ceiling so it's it's almost like he has this picture now he has to figure
out how we got there right right if that makes sense and well in in a way though the defense is going
to have to do the same thing or try to do the same thing right when they put on a celebrity expert witness Dr Henry Lee
now I'm sure most of our listeners are familiar with Henry Lee he's been in several of the more well-known cases
including uh he was involved in the O.J Simpson case now Lee explained that the blood spatter uh he explained it in a
theatrical manner he swigged a small amount of ketchup took a deep breath and then spit it out replicating he said the
victim of the Fall coughing up blood staggering about the stairwell yeah the result he says blood spatter up the wall
of the staircase and on the inside leg of Peterson shorts as he tended to her Dr Lee told the jury that the copious
blood spatter on the back staircase convinced him Kathleen Peterson had died of a fall not a beating so if you're
trying to forgive me if you're trying to picture this at home what he's talking about is
he's saying she fell and as she's laying there she's coughing up blood she's breathing blood and that is what is
projecting that blood onto the wall behind her right and they also believe at some point she tried to get up
which will explain the blood that's on the bottom of her feet but also explain like if she did try to get up and she
slipped that her body would have moved so she's more outside of the door her head's still inside the doorway
again once she then continues to cough up blood at that position would account for some of the rest of
the blood splatter yeah to help the jurors imagine how a woman would fall and end up like this that they're
indicating you know keep in mind Kathleen was in flip-flops she was medicated with Valium she might be tipsy
with having drinking wine that night no no not not might be tipsy I mean one of the things that people really should
look up is the effects of Valium the effects of a Valium are pretty much the same effects
as far as alcohol is concerned but once you mix both of them times it by 10 let's say right so one of
the major effects is dizziness a loss of balance um and so you're talking about a very
odd staircasing I almost argued that that staircasing should have been made where you just go into
a little square room turn to the right and then you go up the steps so there would be no initial stairs directly in
front of you so the stairs basically if you walked into this into this uh stairwell it's almost like a mini spiral
staircase it looks like a staircase like a closet that you're walking into almost
right and you take a couple of steps and then you turn to your right and you go up the rest of the stairs and the stairs
to your right there's quite a bit more stairs there than what would be at the bottom straight ahead of you now like
the captain pointed out you're right it would have been a safer situation to just have that be a flat Landing there
as if you are walking into a closet turn to your right and then go directly up the stairs without turning so the other
thing too is this would be would you call this like um you know how they have some older homes they have
like servant quarters and and right that's you know that's probably what it is probably what this is is a second
staircase for people to work behind the scenes of a big house like that it's been referred to as a mansion I I think
you could call it that I think that's somewhat of an accurate description it's a big house but here here's what's weird
though too is because you have this weird landing at the bottom and you have these steps that actually curve
whether you fall by accident whether you fall by again push whether you fall because you got pulled down whether you
fall because you got hit by something once you're in that area you're on multiple levels
that aren't level and so by trying to get up by trying to move you're then going to be pushed if there's any blood
you're going to be pushing A lot of blood around you there's it's very possible that you could make a big mess
in this small area because of the the floor not being level not only that the turn and how narrow this space is on a
normal staircase you might not be able to spit or cough that much blood onto the wall because you would be more
centered you would be more away from the wall right and it's man when you see the
scene the the pictures of the scene you're like a lot of blood it's a lot it's a it's enough blood to the point
where you're like did he beat her head against the wall for an hour like it I mean the blood is
um I mean it's traumatic to see it and and I can see how the state and how the investigators jump to
this is a murder this is not an accident there's too much blood here I mean when
you see the initial photos the first thought is this is not an accident right but then it then it becomes odd too
because you you have her feet covered and blood and you just wonder if she tried to get up again that does not
blood on her feet does not determine whether she was hit pushed or she fell well in the state is going to try to
point out to the jurors that a woman in flip-flops medicated with Valium had been drinking
all of this could have been a combination that might have led to a fall and the the body motion expert
showed in an animation that Kathleen climbs the stairs to go to bed she suddenly loses her balance Falls
backwards from the fourth step hitting her head on the molding cutting open a nasty wound to her scalp yeah which was
in roughly a v-shape and she stunned she tries to get up but she slips in a puddle of her own blood falls again and
then now she's doomed to lay there and bleed out but we also have impact points on the molding in the staircase and one
of the impact points they basically it's it's science the you know this oh I don't remember what he was called bio
um I don't know I can't remember it was but we're with you Captain the what he did was they they basically made a model
of her her height her weight if she fell at this point then she would have hit that frame that likely would have hit
here right she would hit here about this height well we have matching impact points
based off the the sides they did so I don't know I mean they try to discredit this guy I thought he was very
credible but I think the problem with this guy is the prosecution should have pushed more
okay this is true if she fell from the third step or the fourth step or whatever but all these
things are also true if she got pulled down at that step correct or pushed down at that step so again
I believe I think what he is stating happened or is most likely what happened okay but
I think that doesn't prove if somebody helped her or not and that doesn't prove other theories whether those are true or
not either we'll get to those later a couple of things though here regarding what you just stated was
you know I didn't count the stairs the number of steps it's it's 15 to 20. is what I think he says in the 9-1-1 call
but so let's let's use that as as the general math right let's say it's 15 Steps
what what I think you point out here which is interesting is that the prosecution once they hear hey she felt
this guy says she fell from the fourth step and this is how where she hit and this explains her injuries
where the prosecution failed then was they said they could have said well that's one out of 15 Steps
mathematically it's less likely that she fell from that exact step than any of these you know what I mean right she she
likely could have fallen from another step and therefore those impact points don't match up with your theory
the other thing that you pointed out that's interesting is they never bothered to present the idea that maybe
she was pushed down the stairs right that she was at a different location and pushed down the stairs they stuck with
the she was struck with the blunt object and the Beat to Death and the blunt object let's just cover that real quick
the issue with her being struck with a blunt object is going to be that there is no brain swelling there's no brain
there's no fractures there's no fractures to the skull and there's no um brain bruising either which sometimes
you won't get a fracture but you have a brain bruise underneath and none of those three three things
happen so you'd have to basically hit so lightly that you don't cause any fracture yeah so for those of
you that have not seen the staircase or are unfamiliar with this case picture this most people are familiar
with a fire poker that you would have at any normal fireplace okay it's it's I've
never had a hollowed one though so that's the only that's really the only difference between a blow poke and a
fire poker right is that it's hollowed so that when you poke at the fire you can blow adding air that would then
spread the Sparks or spread the fire uh inside your fireplace right it's like stoking the fire
um so the only difference here is that this item would be we can assume that it's lighter than a traditional fire
poker because it's Hollow right but it still has that Jagged Edge that end right and what the captain's trying to
point out is the thing that I can't get over is if somebody is attacking somebody with a weapon or an object
shaped like that that how in the hell are you going to be able to strike the skin of the skull
with enough Force to create these lacerations and these are Big gashes but be precise enough or
or get I guess lucky enough that in the process of creating those lacerations you didn't fracture the skull at all it
seems inconceivable to me well then right but then everybody believes that she had to be
clawed with something maybe fingernails or maybe she was clawed by um the the poker in right
um because she has these lacerations again they're getting up in age your your skin becomes thinner it is possible
that you could bump into something hard enough that would not create brain bleed
brain bruising or a fracture but still puncture the skin and therefore creating you know a massive amount of blood and
basically the defense is not going to deny that these injuries occurred that these lacerations to her scalp occurred
right but they're basically their answer is stating look she had several points of impact where her head would have
impacted with something else and it didn't necessarily tear the skin open some of that is this the skin splitting
hit you know once you hit upon impact that it's a cut as well as the skin splitting it created these strange
shaped lacerations her the back of her head right the analogy they were using is if you take like a watermelon or
pretty much any melon and you drop it on the ground it's not going to just it's not going to just have one point of
impact it's going to actually split so is it possible that she hit her head against the frame the framing of the
wall and that caused one split or possibly two splits I mean it's it's possible I mean and and that's what
um the one eyewitness that did the bio whatever it was called uh test that that they proved that it was possible
some circumstantial evidence Captain the officers uh called by the prosecution noted that the husband Michael Peterson
his sneakers and bloody socks they noted this and stated that this is odd because
Michael was barefoot upon paramedics arrival to the home and they asked the question how did one of those same
sneakers leave a bloody footprint on the back side of his dead wife's sweatpants
the side facing the floor there was testimony from other prosecution witnesses that Peterson had tried to
clean a large stain of blood off of the front of his shorts now some other details on the kitchen counter police
saw well hold on let's stay with his shorts for a second his shorts were soaked in blood right and so again
wasn't you trying to clean off a section or was he wiping his hands off because his hands were covered in blood too so
that's where it gets tricky with some of this stuff it's like there's a lot of blood if he was trying
to help her if he picked her up up and got blood all over his hands then he tried to wipe that on his pants
wiping that on your pants is going to look the same as if you're trying to wipe it off your pants some other
details on the kitchen counter police saw a bottle of wine and two glasses neatly arranged
implying perhaps the couple had passed a relaxing evening at home sipping wine together the problem with that cozy
image though according to the prosecution is that his dead wife's fingerprints weren't on either glass the
prosecutor argued that Peterson had prominently set out the bottle and glasses to suggest that Kathleen had too
much to drink and had tumbled down the stairs inebriated the defense presented the idea that the police may have had it
in for the husband once they realized he was the same Michael Peterson taking regular pot shots at them in his new
space paper column accusing them of only solving a small fraction of crimes and not getting a handle on drug trafficking
in the city and maybe this was payback time [Music] make sure you go to truecrime garage.com
go to our store Page the team Nick's shirts are on sale because of his birthday in honor of Nick's birthday he
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and lately we we've been putting out hour long episodes so if you're looking for some more garage
in your life get off the Record join us back here in the garage tomorrow for part two of the staircase until then be
good be kind and don't listen foreign [Music] [Applause] [Music]

The Staircase /// Part 1 /// 243

Part 1 of 2

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

Kathleen Peterson was smart, vibrant, professionally successful, and by all accounts a superb daughter, mother, sister and friend. On December 9th, 2001 Kathleen died mysteriously in her home. Was it an accident or murder? In 2004 HBO documented her death and the trial and conviction of Kathleen’s husband, Michael Peterson. In 2018 Netflix documented the release of Michael Peterson. This has been by far one of our most requested cases. HBO and Netflix covered “The Staircase” and this week True Crime Garage is on the case! Beer of the Week - Secret Stairs by Trillium Brewing CompanyGarage Grade - 4 and a quarter bottle caps out of 5

Beer Fund: https://truecrimegarage.com/home

Brief Summary

The episode covers the murder case of Kathleen Peterson and the trial of her husband, Michael, focusing on evidence and motives.

Key points

Michael Peterson's 911 Call. The frantic call reveals a chaotic scene and raises suspicions.
Blood Evidence at the Scene. Paramedics discover an unusual amount of blood, indicating foul play.
The Mysterious Death of Kathleen Peterson. Kathleen Peterson's tragic death raises questions about the events leading up to it.
Michael Peterson's Military Lies. Michael Peterson claimed heroic military awards he never earned, raising questions about his credibility.
The Secret Life Revealed. Evidence suggests Kathleen discovered Michael's secret life, leading to a potential motive for murder.
The Escort Testimony. Brad, a male escort, reveals details about his interactions with Peterson, challenging the marriage's stability.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

We were talking here indicates near the pool for a fair amount of time.

Discussion about the couple's time spent together before the incident.

10:21WatchNov 24, 2022

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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