The Lipstick Killer (Part 1) | Morbid | Podcast | Forensic Files

hey weirdos I'm Alena I'm Ash and this is [Music] morbid it is this is morbid it's morbid
in the afternoon it's actually kind of like the late afternoon currently it is it it is mid afternoon no like late
afternoon it's late it's like mid to late afternoon it's laughternoon woo but that's not good cuz this isn't a show
about laughing yeah and also this case that I'm going to be telling you what do you have is we're going to be talking
about the lipstick killer today um some people think of him as William hirn wrong I am not sure huh
I'll give you my full breakdown of end of this um but this is a gruesome case it's an awful case um there is one child
murder in this case that is very terrible but I will get through it as best as we can here um it's terrible and
the aftermath of it them trying to figure out who actually did these murders and if they're connected and
which ones are connected and all that is the most mindblowing EXT Extravaganza of
stupidity you will ever witness fantastic I love when that happens it's infuriating no it's infuriating and I
don't think so William hirens is known popularly as the lipstick killer yeah um I don't who knows if you'll think that
at the end but in your eye tells me I won't I don't think he did it really and like do I think he was like a great guy
probably not uh but he was arrested when he was 17 and again we're going to get into all this but he was arrested when
he was 17 and he was kind of just like a little [ __ ] he was like a little burglar
you know just a little shitthead yeah um like Mur violent child murderer probably not uh but let's get
into it shall we this is going to be a two-parter because oh no oh gosh so let us begin we are going
to be talking about three murders like I said there two murders of two women and
one murder of a six-year-old young girl which I know is horrific I just want to prepare you ahead of time again I'll go
through it as best as we can and that's all in part one that is going to be all in part one and I think we will be
getting more in part two is going to be more the um when they arrested William hirin and all of the wild aftermath of
that okay um so it was the summer of 1945 so we're in the mid-40s here Josephine Ross was 43 years old she was
twice divorced at this point and now found herself a newly widowed mother living on Chicago's East Side oh that's
so sad yeah for over a decade she had been a stay-at-home mom raising her two daughters Mary Jane and Jacqueline oh
cute names and she had spent all her time and energy on everyone else you know husband daughters but now that her
daughters were grown and her third husband Herbert Ross had died she kind of found herself like floating a little
bit because you know she she had little to occupy her time to be honest cuz like
it had all been spent all her energy on them yeah and she spent most nights going to movies she loved to visit
psychics she went on many many dates now like she was just out there in the dating world she attended parties it was
a simpler you know existence than the hustle and bustle of like being a wife and mother in the' 40s especially yeah
but Josephine and her daughters they none of them found any fault in this lifestyle that you like her dating a lot
or anything like that like no one was concerned and no one was like she's going out too much you know yeah she's
just living her [ __ ] life and in fact in early June Josephine had visit visited a tarot card reader and this
tarot card reader had told her that her future looked very promising and that she would likely be remarried by the end
of the year oh and the lawsuit over Herbert's life insurance claim that was that was like really clouding over her
at this point it was um I'll get into it a little more but it was over like Medical you know what they what they
assumed was like medical fraud or something like that um it was going to be she said it would be settled in her
favor so that was all good news to her she's like great and on the morning of June 5th Maryanne stood at the Maryann
one of her daughters stood at the bathroom sink getting ready for work and listening as her mother told her all
about this tarot card reader's predictions and the whole life insurance thing was that she'd been fighting this
case for like a year since Herbert's death because they claimed that he had falsified medical records okay she was
going to be like coming out on top on that so she was happy because it was coming to an end she was finally going
to be paid out the insurance money and as for the psychic's prediction of marriage Josephine's boyfriend Oscar
nordmark had actually already proposed oh [ __ ] um but she had yet to formally accept she was mulling it over oh what a
good girl and later Mary Jane would remember how happy her mother seemed that morning as she saw both of her
daughters off for work oh no with her daughters out of the apartment for the day and really nothing on her calendar
that day Josephine was like you know what I'm going to have a me day so she changed back into her purple robe and
decided to go back to bed and have you know a later morning so relatable good for you you know to self-care now
Jacqueline one of her daughters returned home for lunch around 1:30 p.m. that afternoon um she unlocked the door as
she entered and she expected to find the apartment and her mother as she had left
them earlier that morning mhm Jacqueline was absolutely stunned when she walked in and found that the apartment had been
totally rans sacked chairs other Furniture were all turned over drawers were pulled completely out everything in
the drawers was strewn across the room this may be reminding you a bit of the career girl girl murders that I covered
in my last case you literally took the words right out of my mouth yeah there is a little bit of like the obviously
they are not connected in any way but there's some weird similarities in in some of the case aspects yeah papers and
other items were littered all over the floor I mean it was a mess like a bomb had gone off and jackelin was obviously
and understandably immediately terrified oh yeah so but she was thinking of her mother so she ran into the bedroom she
shared with her mother and that's where she saw her oh my God Josephine was lying across the bed Jacqueline her
daughter's red skirt was wrapped around her head oh my God and a pair of silk stockings was wrapped around her neck
nearly every surface around her mother's body the bed the floor the walls the drapes soaked with blood what and
Jacqueline knew her mother was dead what a [ __ ] like that sounds like something out of a horror film there are
many times in this case where you're like this is a horror movie like this can't be real life how do you ever move
on from that like how do you ever recover exactly how do you ever and it's her skirt over her head like the
daughter's skirt like something about that just like oh no that's so visual now Jacqueline called
the police and they arrived at the apartment a short time later and as far as Mary Jane and Jacqueline could tell
the apartment had obviously been ransacked and trashed but aside from a few dollars taken from Josephine's purse
nothing seemed to be missing just like the career girl murders oh and that's so weird like just a couple like what what
was it like 20 bucks a few dollars oh that's weird so detectives were able to rule out robbery as the motive and
logically just like in the KW girl murders assumed the murder was personal that was a theory that grew some legs
when the coroner briefly examined Josephine's body at the scene and discovered that while the area around
her body had been I mean completely saturated and soaked with blood the body itself looked like it had been washed at
some point between the killing and when the killer left the apartment what she had been washed
down when they went to the bathroom and searched detectives found that yes the bathtub was partially partly filled with
garments and bloody water what the [ __ ] yeah now when they removed the skirt from her head and stockings from around
Josephine's head and neck investigators discovered the actual cause of death in addition to severe bruising on her head
and face which indicated that she'd been hit repeatedly with a heavy object there
were deep slashes on her face and four knife wounds on her neck wow the killer had stabbed her one of them severed her
jugular vein oh wow that's you're going to bleed a lot yeah aside from the sheer
brutality of this entire thing detectives found another piece of the puzzle that was strange and unsettling
too the killer had placed adhesive tape across the wounds on the face and neck as though they were trying to undo the
damage caused by the knife what like Scotch tape oh I don't know I have yet to hear
anything this strange and brutal that's I don't even know how to react to that like
literally this seems frenzied yes a frenzied killing yes cuz the rans sacking I assume happened
probably afterwards to Stage you know or to confuse or whatever yeah who knows this seems like a very frenzied killing
I mean stabbing in the face and neck and hitting with some object repeatedly that's very frenzied very aggressive
very wild animesque and then to wash her but not the surrounding area just her just her her cloth wounds and to tape up
the wounds and then to wrap her head so not to see them that's just that's very telling yeah and then and the thing is
like immediately you want to say and I felt this way last time when we were talking about the career girl murders
you want to say this has got to be personal it's got to be personal but I feel like from that case that previous
one that we just did I I don't want to say that this time but this like you really would think so I can understand
why they went in there and said like this has got to be someone she knows of course because like what else is there
like and remember this is the' 40s the idea of a serial killer was not something that they understood or knew
or even was brought up weren't even talking about quano the idea that somebody was could have just ran came in
in here with the sheer want to just terrorize and like mutilate this woman was just beyond the scope of like their
thought process at the time this also reminds me a little bit of like and we haven't covered him yet but we will the
weepy voice killer we have covered him we did Cover him didn't we okay I thought so I was going to say did we
because I was like wait and like way early I was going to say it was way early on once it was in the the laundry
room pod yes now I remember and we it just reminds me of it like how he was like he would do that like weeping thing
afterwards but he was so brutal yeah he was super brutal but then would like really come down from but then like be
sobbing and weeping about it and stuff and it's like this gives similar Vibes of somebody who's in this frenzied State
and is just like a beast monster and then immediately like shoots back into like human body for a second and it's
like what have I done and just tries to take it back no it's so true so along with the evidence discovered in the
bathtub investigators strongly believe Josephine's killer had been known to her and the murder was intensely personal
like you were saying and the killer obviously immediately regretted their actions because they were looking at
someone that they knew and possibly had quote unquote cared about at some point in their life to be honest like like we
were just saying I can understand why they thought that like that's looking back on this part of it you're like yeah
I get that well and I I feel like the face too like the the wounds face one like slashing the face up that much and
then two covering the face and the washing it does feel personal but I mean people are [ __ ] lunatics so and
especially in the' 40s these kind of things would have been like ding ding ding this is definitely a personal
murder in the' 40s cuz they hadn't seen all of the things that we have now seen in 202 and so now we know yeah lots of
them do weird [ __ ] and like wash a body that they have no connection to other than just having brutally murdering them
so it's like we know now that that's like needs to be considered as a possibility that
this is just a stranger who came in and is a monster and has some kind of psychological thing where he regrets it
immediately and has to try to pretend it didn't happen in his own mind or something or get the You Know cover her
face so that she can't look at him or she doesn't he doesn't want the Judgment we've seen all these now but in the 40s
they had not so this is just like this has to be personal and the whole thing of like I feel like sometimes we feel
like something is personal and then we look back on it and we're like well it was for the killer because this person
was like this other person personified for them do you know they can be connected to another person in their
life that they've become a symbol AS kind of thing now based on their theory that Josephine
knew her killer police immediately started looking around into her personal life you know I said she was going on
dates she was she was almost engaged at this point um and they were quickly identifying the most likely suspects
that they at least wanted to talk to her wouldbe fiance Oscar and her on and off
again boyfriend Chester rice were the first two that they looked at of course Oscar nordmark had an airtight Alibi for
the afternoon of the murder and that's the wood be fiance yeah okay um and his Alibi was that he was with another
woman well you know I guess they were he hadn't got a solid yes and she also had
you know what are you GNA do and this other woman Francis sarin was able to say yes he was with me at the estimated
time of death all right um besides while Josephine's daughters had never really liked Oscar uh they also said they could
not Envision him ever hurting their mother or murdering her like they were like no we might not like like him but
he's not that guy okay Chester rice on the other hand seemed like he could be a more likely suspect was he violent
Chester rice was an ex-convict who'd served several years in state prison for a series of grocery store robberies oh
uh he had unfortunately been a presence in Josephine's life for more than two decades at this point uh they were on
and off again and although the two had carried on an affair at various points since first meeting um and Josephine and
Mary Jane had even uh had even lived with rice for a short period of time Josephine had never really taken their
relationship that seriously or was ever really willing to commit to him despite him really trying to lock her down a few
times she was like no thank you like it was just kind of like a convenient thing
like yeah whatever like yeah um The Casual rejections though had been a point of contention between them for
years particularly in recent weeks oh no since Josephine had announced her intention to possibly marry Oscar oh no
this all move Chester up to the top of the suspect list now a friend of Chester though Louie breit brait preter I think
it is okay told police that he'd been with chester at several different taverns on the morning of the murder and
had been in a car with chester rice at the time of Josephine's death effectively ruling him out as a suspect
which was unfortunate because they thought they had like a clear suspect I guess fortunate and unfortunate mhm now
aside from the two cleared suspects investigators really had little to go on but the janitor did report having seen a
darkhaired and well-dressed man in his 20s or 30s leave the building by way of the fire escape oh sometime between 12:
and 1:00 p.m. also to think of this man as A well-dressed man like a Patrick baitman kind of situation like doing
this that's really terrifying apparently he was wearing a white sweater with what
appeared to be blood stains on the front according to the janitor h neighbor also
saw this man and confirmed the physical description though they had nothing really to add to the description they
just said yeah that's how what he looked like later that afternoon FBI agents in
Chicago arrested 32-year-old Lawrence Gates Lawrence was a fugitive from California who'd fled the state to avoid
prosecution on a burglary charge okay while Gates was in custody FBI agents believed he closely matched the
description of Josephine's killer and given that he was staying just a few doors down from the Ross's apartment
they contacted Captain Frank Reynolds to notify him of the potential suspect got
it unfortunately it was quickly determined that Lawrence Gates was not responsible for Josephine's murder and
within a couple of months investigators had exhausted all their leads like as soon as they brought him and they
figured out he had an alibi everything was checked out so they're just back at square one and without any new evidence
or suspects in the Ross case the Press quickly lost interest in the story which is I'm sorry what wild and they moved on
to more Sensational news items the press in this case will have your head exploding they usually do yeah I'm also
just like what the [ __ ] is more Sensational than this like for the Press you know what I mean like when you're
looking at it from that view well news moves fast in a city like Chicago and by the winter of 1945 most people had
unfortunately forgotten about the murder of Josephine Ross it had just kind of been pushed aside for newer things that
were happening so crazy that that really is how like it works how the media works
but her story would finally return to the front pages in December after yet another murder this time of 33-year-old
Francis Brown although she was born in Indiana Francis had moved to Chicago in 1934 and she was working steadily as a
stenographer when the US entered World War II in 1942 now like many young women at the
time she was very eager to support the war effort and so that Summer She signed up for the waves which is women accepted
for voluntary Emergency Services what a badass which was a federal program that TR trained women in non-combat skills
like radar technician and mapping um la like mapping to assist Navy Fighters like awesome [ __ ] yeah very like Rosie
the Riveter kind of stuff very much and it's like and they're like important position that they were volunteering to
do and francis's position with the waves required her to travel for training and
first she headed to Naval St station Great Lakes outside Chicago and then to Washington DC when the war ended in the
fall of 1945 she returned home to Chicago and happily settled back into her old stenographer job with AB dick
and Company and resumed the life she'd been living before she volunteered for service she's a badass she just
literally came to Chicago quickly got a stenographer job and then was like oh we're entering the war what the [ __ ] can
I do jumped in went to training traveled all over the place helping the war effort aming and then once it was done
she was like all right I'll just go back to my stenographer job I'm like you're a
badass truly on the evening of December 10th she returned home to the apartment she shared with her roommate Viola
Butler around 9:30 p.m. when she got into her building the doorman stopped her and let her know that a man had
stopped by looking for her a few hours earlier but he didn't give a name or say whether he would return okay so she was
like all right so later the doormen would tell police that it seemed quote she was expecting the call so she was
like okay like she like she knew who this person was okay once upstairs Francis called her mother to disc
discuss her travel plans that she had made For an upcoming holiday and then she went into the bathroom to wash her
hair and got ready for bed very normal evening totally normal the next morning the cleaning woman Martha Engles arrived
at the apartment she was immediately concerned because she found the front door of the apartment slightly a jar oh
no and there was very loud music coming from a radio inside at a time when both Francis Brown and Viola Butler would
normally be at work right so when angles went inside she discovered the apartment
was completely rans sacked just like Josephine Ross oh no there was a large trail of Blood on the floor leading to
the bathroom and it looked like someone had attempted to very poorly soak up the
blood with towels clean up when she reached the bathroom though she found Francis oh no Fran princess's lifeless
body was draped over the side of the bathtub with her head wrapped in towels and resting on the floor of the tub her
pajama top had been removed and looped around her neck while her bloody pajama bottoms had been pulled down and were
Tangled around her feet oh that's so just like all of this is so gruesome there was also a very large bread knife
thrust through her neck its point and handle protruding beneath each ear straight through her neck and a bread
knife a giant like one of those big bread KN those aren't even like crazy sharp either you're like what oh my God
through and through like handle under this ear blade under this year oh my God the image that that conjures up in my
brain it makes you like have to take a deep breath I am like those PE that woman Martha Angel walking into that
you'll never be the same never it's like you'll how do you just go back to cleaning apartments after
that that's such a [ __ ] horrific image and just the like the brute force that would have to take to drive a a
bread knife through somebody's neck through their neck and it's like if you're looking at this all the
similarities are here area an apartment rans sacked in the bathroom the clothes used to St to go
around NE Tow on the head tried to clean up stab to the neck again oh wow it's all the same wow now panic and very
likely severely traumatized by what she was seeing Martha angles called the police who ared very quickly to
detectives at the scene they thought immediately what we thought this is very reminiscent to the Ross case like almost
to a tea just going back for a second it's so sad that like therapy didn't exist like it exists today because that
poor woman how did she do after this how do you just like nobody like nobody would have
even sent her to a therapist or to talk to somebody I'm like oh my God so she just had to deal with it wow I can't
even imagine like how do you even that's the thing like I don't know how you go about this kind of thing you always
think of these people who stumble upon this stuff like right how are they doing like I don't know how they how people go
through that now like with thy available but then you go back knowledge of psychology you know like yeah sorry I
just had to say that no it's true cuz in the 40s like what the [ __ ] did we know
about what was going ontd what did we know about any of that stuff know probably something that like was just so
buried yeah like she probably just buried that down and was like I can't really ever talk about that again yeah
it's true oh my God so detectives were like wow this is very reminiscent of the Josephine Ross murder the apartment was
rans sacked but nothing was stolen again weird which again that's weird mhm um the victim's head had been wrapped like
we said and as as though the killer didn't want to see her face and didn't want to see what she had done and the
body had been washed of blood like completely washed again which is so strange and despite being found nude in
the bathroom or partially nude at least Francis like Josephine had not been sexually assaulted nether one of them
even though like the pajama pants are down by her ankles and do you think that was like a staging thing possibly but
then you think of how frenzy this person must have been and it's like they weren't frenzied all the way
through they took time to wash this person they took time to wrap their head they took time to put them somewhere but
it almost seems like they're doing all those things like wrapping the head cuz they can't bear what they've done and
washing them because they can't bear what they've done so why pull her pajama bottoms down after that maybe to just
confuse yeah or very likely in my thought process and I don't know if anyone will agree when Martha angles
said she walked in there was a trail leading to the bathroom dragged she was dragged her pajama pants pulled down as
she was dragged that does make sense yeah so it does seem like maybe that's a possibility and maybe that's not
supposed to be posed at all and he just didn't want to touch her anymore just happened now the knife through francis's
neck obviously would have been enough to cause her death however when the coroner
removed the several towels wrapped around her head they discovered the actual cause of death to be a large hole
in her head oh my God caused by a 38 caliber bullet fired at close range what and she lived in an apartment building
oh yeah don't worry people heard what yeah in addition to the head and neck wound Francis had also been shot in the
right shoulder and stabbed in the chest with the same knife that the killer had put through her neck oh my God and there
were small cuts on her hands and the webbing between her fingers oh God indicating that she had fought her
attacker now always desperate for a story The Press arrived at Brown's apartment right behind the police and
report just freely roamed the apartment Jesus Christ mingling with detectives taking photos it was one of those
reporters who after entering Brown's bedroom called out to everyone that there was something they needed to see
oh no in the bedroom written on the wall in red lipstick was a message that anybody who knows about the lipstick
killer case has seen this message several photos existed you can look them up they're not you don't see scene you
just see the message it is it says For Heaven's Sake catch me before I kill more I cannot control myself which again
is so similar to the weepy voice killer yes and it's and it's so chilling yeah and as for in the Ross murder a window
was found to be open when police arrived which they determined was maybe the Killer's point of entry but all Prince
appeared to have been wiped away so they cleaned up they made sure they didn't leave anything a few days later when
technicians returned to finish processing the seen a single smudged bloody fingerprint on the back of the
bathroom door jam that's all they could find one single smudged fingerprint but aside from the single print there was no
additional evidence Left Behind that's crazy now a canvas of the neighboring Apartments proved a little more fruitful
a tenant on the second floor said they heard gunshots somewhere in the night between
3: and 4:00 a.m. and did what about it and the night that just I heard him are you kidding I mean I don't live in
Chicago I don't know how this this rules but I'm like damn like I I mean I'm sure
you hear gunshots in Chicago quite often but you would think that within the apartment building that's the thing
those have to be pretty close range that you're hearing I would be a little concerned yeah but I don't again I don't
know how big this apartment building is or anything like that but wow but like you hear gunshots in your apartment like
call someone definitely call the police the night clerk said he saw a man leave the building around 4:00 a.m. oh wow uh
the night clerk said he came down the automatic elevator at 4 a.m. he was a stranger he fumbled at the front door
not realizing at first it was locked he turned towards me once he left he seemed
very nervous and the clerk described the man as being 35 to 40 years old 5 1/2 ft
tall and weighing about 140 lb and wearing quote a dark overcoat and a dark hat okay now like the investigation into
the Ross murder the Brown case was stalled almost as soon as they started Francis had many friends but most of
them if not all had aliis none of them had reason to even be upset with her right so they were immediately ruled out
and investigators did find some love letters tucked away among her things but unlike Josephine Ross francis's love
life was pretty simple uncomplicated yeah there weren't many potentially people that she was dating or you know
potential suitors or spurned lovers to be questioned sure simply put there wasn't a single piece of evidence to
provide even the slightest hint of who this killer was now given the similarities to the Ross murder and the
message sprawled on the wall in lipstick the Press seized on the story and quickly dubbed the murderer the lipstick
killer oh yeah the next day at a press conference Captain Reynolds told the Press whoever the killer was he's a
maniac and we must get him now which like yeah we agree mhm interestingly Reynolds was also clear about the fact
that investigators had not ruled out the possibility that the killer could be a woman expanding on that possibility
Reynolds pointed out the note left on the wall having been written in lipstick and having included the feminine phrase
For Heaven's Sake are you kidding me that's real I don't know the feminine phrase
For Heaven's Sake I feel like I've heard a lot of people say that including men and also it's the ' 40s yeah I know
there's some dudes with a button-up shirt and a sweater vest on in the 40s being like For Heaven's Sake yeah you
know that that's not a feminine phrase what the [ __ ] is a feminine phrase and it kind of feels like he's just saying
because it was written in lipstick and it's like yeah I'm sure liptick yeah or Violet had lipstick right like one of
those women probably had lipstick in that apartment I mean it's I I don't put anything on the realm of possibility
obviously anymore with everything we've heard but nothing about this screams female killer to me no and they also
pointed out the fact that Francis and Josephine had not been sexually assaulted either and they were trying to
say like that's why it potentially could be a woman yeah that was part of the like I mean you never know I mean even
if it was a woman they still you know like now they at first everybody was just kind of like okay sure why yeah why
not but now knowing what we know after you can read about this case um it turned out that there were some romantic
love letters found among francis's belongings that were written by a woman and that might be why they were so
that's why they were saying that okay that's what I think was they were like wow how scandalous Scandal so dumb now
within days of the press conference the theories about the Killer and the motive
began to fall apart like that whole thing was just like that's not it um as soon as reporters began to question the
possibility that the killer was woman Reynolds quote admitted that the evidence to support such a theory was
purely speculative based on the phrasing of the message left behind on the wall yeah people also pointed out that the
theory that this killer was just un some unhinged raving madman was unlikely as well because they had the presence of
mind to not only sneak in and out of the building successfully but also they thought to wipe down any surfaces they
might have touched to make sure they didn't leave behind fingerprints that's cunning at the very least also all the
eyewitnesses seeing a man leave right exactly the truth was Chicago detectives had literally no idea who killed Francis
brown or why doesn't sound like it but they did know or at least strongly suspected that the Brown case was
connected to the murder of Josephine Ross six months earlier definitely um although they didn't have the language
or frame of reference at the time investigators on the case suspected they had a serial killer operating within the
city again they weren't calling him that they didn't have that language back then
ter yeah um but basic basically just someone compelled to kill for deeply psychological reasons that would most
likely only make sense to the killer this Jack the Ripper type of Slayer as they called him which doesn't roll off
the tongue quite as long as well as serial killer no it sure doesn't um Jack the Ripper type of Slayer is what they
were calling imagine if we just had to say that every time we talked about AER type of Slayer that'd be a lot I mean
there's aren't there like podcasts called like serial killers it would have to be called Jack the Ripper type Slayer
of killers doesn't sound as as like easy to say no um so they said that he had a
lust for bloody killings and reasoning that defied the conventional beliefs about murder at the time however while
they believe this individual to have been the man who' called on Francis earlier that evening they were still no
closer to identifying him which is interesting that they immediately thought it must be that guy that stopped
by looking for Francis which I'm like I get it I get why you're thinking like you at least want to talk to that guy
right but I'm like I wouldn't like totally pin it on him yet that could just be like a friend yeah no while
investigators struggled to make literally any progress in this case the Press weren't as quick to let the story
go as they had been in the Josephine's murder well especially now that it's happened twice yeah unlike the Josephine
Ross killing which everyone assumed at the time was a one-time murder this case now suggested that there would or could
be more brutal deaths until the killer was caught right in fact the Press really did it really didn't help the
matter or do anything to ease the feelings of helplessness felt by the women of Chicago at the time because
they published an interview with francis's roommate Viola Butler who insisted Francis had no enemies and
Butler said quote you just couldn't be jealous of Francis she never gave anyone reason to be and the portrait of Francis
that Viola painted with reporters was one of a chased much loved and deeply respectable woman right she said quote
Francis was not much on going out she knitted and did fancy work she was self-effacing hardworking and
Cooperative oh and if someone like Francis Brown who by all accounts sounds like this [ __ ] ideal like amazing
human being friend human worker woman just everything if she could meet her end this way like some brutal evil evil
stranger could come in and kill her this way then no one's safe in Chicago at this point so that's when we get into my
least favorite thing to talk about which is the murder of a child yeah uh just want to warn you that's what we're going
to talk about next now the unsolved murders of Josephine Ross and fr Francis Butler had everyone in Chicago on edge
obviously with a growing demand for police to show some evidence of progress it was really one of those where a lot
of pressure was put on them obviously yeah to catch this killer but they were not taking it as a one of the best
instances I think personally of like so much pressure being put on a police force and them handling it completely
perfectly and not sinking to the pressure to just nail someone is the deli murder case yes yes as frustrating
as it was to wait for so long and how as a totally outside person not as like a family member or anything like that I
can't imagine how they felt but everything was kept so close to the chest in that investigation and they
they bided their time and they built case and they took care like I think that was a very good example of like I
know there's a lot of pressure here and I know everyone wants all this information but we cannot trickle it out
like you got to just wait until we are able to give it to you and I think that's such a good way to and it the
results spoke for themselves they were able to close it AB so this though was the exact opposite they could not handle
the pressure they could not handle the criticism they couldn't handle any of it and it wasn't even that long they just
couldn't handle it right but unfortunately there was a very growing demand for them to show any kind of
progress at all and little did they know however that the recent rash of violence
was going to reach a pretty [ __ ] horrifying Peak here on the evening of January 6th 1946 less than a month after
the Brown murder Helen degnan tucked her six-year-old daughter Suzanne into bed and kissed her good night before saying
goodbye to her husband Jim who was headed to awake that evening with plans to return home later that night when Jim
Degan returned home around 11:00 p.m. he took the neighbor dogs out for a walk which I was like that was really nice of
him then returned home and got ready for bed and he mentioned later that at this
time Suzanne who was six again was going through a phase of of having accidents you know wetting the bed so Jim and
Helen had gotten into a habit of checking on her before they the last one of them went to bed just to try to avoid
any accidents bring her to the bathroom let her go kind they just kind of like woke her up right and he said quote she
awakened that night and we were talking and fooling and joking with her oh Jim later recalled of the last time he saw
his daughter he said with Suzanne having gone to the bathroom and sent back to bed he and Helen also retired for the
evening but were awoken a short time later when Helen said she heard what she said she can't be sure but she thinks
she heard her daughter crying okay she said she didn't want to disturb her daughter's sleep and then she kind of
rationalized that it was probably just the upstairs dogs that she was hearing cuz she said she was like out of it yeah
so she went back to sleep okay it almost kind of sounds like she thought her daughter was like crying in her sleep
like having a weird dream or something and then she was like actually you know what I think they're the dogs
like her up so Jim woke up the next morning around 6:30 a.m. and began starting getting ready for the day and
he finished shaving and went down the hall to Suzanne's room and found the door closed um he assumed you know she
was still asleep so he opened the door and he was very surprised because he didn't find her his daughter in bed
right um and he said what was more alarming was that the window which had only been open a crack the night before
was now wide open oh no hoping their daughter was just playing some trick Jim and Helen sent their other daughter
Betty upstairs to their neighbor's apartment to search while they checked each room on the floor of their house
together with the neighbors the flynns the family searched the entire house but Suzanne was nowhere to be found and Jim
wasted no time he called the police right away in 1945 things were different a missing
child quote unquote wouldn't have raised the kinds of alarms that it raises now a
lot of police precincts at that time would just be like oh they're probably playing a trick right they probably just
run away they'll probably be back by supper time don't worry about it like it was very weirdly normal for them to just
not be alarmed by this right and they'd be like oh don't worry about it they'll be back by dinner but Jim Degan was a
person people respected and he had some Renown because he was an executive with the office of price Administration oh
okay wow so he used this influence to call in a favor with local law enforcement and the FBI I mean I would
too I absolutely that [ __ ] like so soon after the call was placed the dean home was crawling with
detectives and FBI agents all very eager to solve this case and find this little
girl before the Press was able to make a big story out of this whole thing now despite their best efforts to keep the
Press at Bay that day by 10:00 a.m. the house and sidewalk out front were crawling with reporters and
photographers just trying to break the story that's so [ __ ] up because of the intense public scrutiny over how
investigators were handling the Ross and brown murders already among other recent
crimes like it's not like those were the only two there were other crimes that they were bumbling and not handling
right believe they investigators were intent on taking their time to comb every inch of the scene and avoid any
further blunders or criticism they were like let's do this right now outside the
house just below suzan's window or bedroom window investigators found a wooden ladder that appeared to be the
means by which the kidnapper had entered the home this reminds me of like the Lindberg baby I was just going to say um
yeah so they were able to get through it by the open window is what they assumed
yeah a cursory search of the girl's bedroom turned up really nothing unusual at first there was no sign of any blood
it didn't appear there was like a giant struggle nothing was broken like fallen over right but on the floor beside the
bed detectives found a handwritten note on a thin piece of paper resembling a discarded tissue and when it was
unfolded the note was discovered to be a ransom note oh no but it said get $20,000 ready and wait for word don't
not notify FBI or police bills and fives and tens okay but it's like it doesn't say where when how to deliver this money
right wait just get the money and wait the note was covered in an oily substance and on the back the kidnapper
had written a postcript that said burn this for her safety what now it was obviously too late to avoid contacting
the police or FBI but Jim degnan nonetheless proceeded to gather the money he was like I'm going to meet
these demands the problem though was like I said there was no information to contact the kidnapper where to deliver
the money any information to cooperate stay around and wait so without any other options and he's not just going to
sit around he was like [ __ ] this no my six-year-old ising Jim Dean went on a local radio station WQ to indicate his
willingness to cooperate with the kidnapper and plead for his daughter's safe return yeah he said if you have any
sympathy or understanding in your heart you will return the child to the family he said please let me know what I can do
how I can contact you I'll give you the money I'll do anything to get my child back if you harm her God will repay you
please please do not harm her oh God which like honestly makes me have a ball in my throat of like
oh so the Press cover coverage in degnan's radio broadcast prompted a wave of responses so some people were
reporting tips and of course there were other pieces of absolute [ __ ] garbage claiming to be the kidnapper wanting to
get the money that's so gross you have to be the lowest [ __ ] form of human being to do that [ __ ] I say it every
time but you got to be the lowest [ __ ] form no it's so true like congratulations you're going to claim
that you kid terrestrial sixy old and you didn't but none of them prove credible even the tips so just
[ __ ] and honestly unfortunately none of it would matter by the end of the day later that evening around 700 p.m. and
this is very gruesome two detectives were searching the area around the dean home when they
noticed that noticed that the dirt around a nearby manhole cover looked Disturbed uh it looked like somebody had
recently tried to access the sewer yeah when they removed the cover they shin their flashlights down into the sewer
and they saw what they first thought was a doll's head floating on top of some debris in the water below however when
they got a closer look they realized to their abject horror that they had discovered Suzanne degnan's severed head
in a sewer oh my God she was six oh my God taken out of her bed and they thought it was a dolls Oh my God it's
awful oh that makes me want to throw up just because see a picture of suzan she's just C so cute investigators and
volunteers comb the sewers in streets above and eventually found a ton of other dismembered body parts oh my God
so she had been completely dismembered which is truly Unthinkable like truly Unthinkable I don't even have words I
don't even have words nothing about this reminds you of the Ross not at all and Brown case not at all nothing not the
victim type not the way in which she was not the yeah the fact that she was abducted not the way in which she was
killed nothing The Ransom note The Ransom note and also like it's like did you even look at the handwriting between
the ransom note and the they do message left on the wall mhm now oh my God oh my
God that poor family I can't even fathom I can't even fathom that's six-year-old
and for the parents to be like oh yeah like we woke her up around you know a little after 11 to take her to the
bathroom we were joking with her laughing having a great time and you had no idea that put her back to bed you
ever saw her like oh that's gutr you're just putting her in her bed in your home
you're supposed to be safe there her bed is supposed to be safe and like you live
in an apartment building you never suspect that some up they had the ladder exactly it was just going to say oh God
so the discovery that Suzanne Deon had been murdered was obviously the worst possible outcome imaginable um to
everyone including investigators for very obvious reasons obviously but also because it gave the Press another
Sensational story that would quickly they were going to tie it back to like even with a like even just using their
failure to solve the case right tying it back to Ross and brown murders like even
if there was no similarities they were going to be like see they can't do anything yeah and in fact the next which
this is what's so frustrating is at first first it's like the Press didn't even give investigators time to do good
police work no and it's like yeah the police should have an investigator should have been able to handle the
pressure and should have been able to just put their nose to the grindstone and do good police work catch the actual
people 100% if that's on them but the Press has to take a little bit of this sprunt here for putting a [ __ ] ton of
undo press pressure on them and not allowing them to solve these cases they're both equal parts of the [ __ ]
recipe where no one gets any justice so in fact the next morning the gruesome horrific Discovery dominated the
headlines of all five major Chicago papers with each giving a very detailed account of the discovery oh wow
referring to the murder as quote even too horrible for a maniac and referring to the killer as quote The Mad Butcher
of Ken Kenmore Avenue among other things uh whether they were simply doing their
Duty by reporting the news which of course we can all say like you know an informed public is a you know is a good
thing sure um or whether they were riling up the public with Sensational coverage of the a awful case which is
also what was happening yeah the reporting elicited a remarkable response just hours after the news broke two
citizens called The Chicago Tribune to separately offer $500 rewards for the arrest conviction and execution of
Suzanne's killer wow now people were like ready for blood like people which I would also be that way you dis member a
six-year-old I mean yeah you got to go yeah you got to go that's what I'm like go for it that's you got to go like I
don't I don't I'm going to turn my back but you got to go like this whoever did this to Suzanne degnan on site now
immediately I would be thinking this is a totally unrelated case though like that's the thing 100% you're nothing
about this is is related not one thing totally outside of them but as far as the Chicago Police and administration
were concerned the brutal seemingly ritualistic murders of Josephine Ross and Francis Brown were bad enough
obviously but the kidnapping and murder of a child whose dismembered body was then dumped in the sewer raised public
alarm to new heights whether they were connected or not oh definitely like it was just like people are going to throw
this all at us together and anticipating a major public outcry and demand that the killer be brought to Justice
immediately investigators and Patrol officers fanned right out across the neighborhood searching for any clues
they could which is good at first the most compelling lead at the time was that and this just like hurts my heart
was that coal dust had been discovered on the bottom of bottoms of Suzanne's feet oh her little like bare feet yeah
leading detectives to assume she'd at least been in if not been killed killed in one of the cellers in the
neighborhood cuz that's where you will find Cold dust oh God taken out of her bed in the middle of the night and
killed in a seller like no I genuinely can't like this doesn't ites get my brain can't I can't even
like assuming her abductor had been known to her and lived nearby that's what they were going off of because who
else climbs into a child's window at night they were assuming that they had to and it didn't seem like there was a
huge struggle and like they knew where the bedroom was it seemed like or like like some familiarity right because she
had a sister too like she did so it seems like there was a little familiar I understand why they were going off of
that um officers began a houset toh house search of the coal sellers in the houses around the degnon house oh that's
just so so sad oh it's awful it's awful horrible and in the basement of a house on winthrip street just one block block
from the Dean House investigators found what they believe to be quote the murder
room really now among the discoveries made in this particular basement were four large tubs blood stains on the col
bin a bloody push cart and several lockers that held residents belongings one of which had been broken open and
had contained a hacks saww and several garment bags that matched those in which the body parts had been
wrapped in a floor drain investigators also found pieces of Flesh and strands of blond blond hair that matched suan oh
God this gets worse and worse yeah oh my God and this is me giving you as as not detailed of an overview as I
can now obviously certain that they had found the scene of the murder detective sent for the building superintendent
because this is a building so this is a shared space yeah those lockers that they found those things in are residence
lockers where like everyone puts stuff yeah so finding this great but now you have to talk to everyone in this
building and who had access here it might not even just be tenants who had access here yeah it could be workers
could be anybody day Tod sent for the building superintendent Hector ver verberg a Belgian immigrant widely known
and well liked around the neighborhood okay um Hector said that he knew Suzanne only by sight and he'd ever only spoken
to her just to say maybe hello but that he was but he did say I'm friendly with all the neighborhood children and he
would and find and fix toys for the ones whose families couldn't afford to buy them toys wow so he's literally like the
neighborhood Santa Claus yeah he would literally like find toys fix them up and hand them out to kids who couldn't
afford them wow when asked about how someone could have accessed the basement Hector said I don't know anything about
it anybody could get in oh according to Hector only he and the tenants in the building had keys to the basement but he
said but the windows were always open anybody could get in he break right in and especially if this [ __ ] broke
into a window through an open window to get this this young girl right they would have easily went through another
window to do something like they're not opposed to going through open Windows where they don't belong right now given
his access to the building police became immediately suspicious of Hector I don't
know about that and escorted him back to the apart his apartment where they discovered a standard siiz saw and
hatchet with nothing on them a lot of people have saws which were taken into evidence they had they showed no signs
of having been used in a crime medal yeah um at the station detectives began interrogating Hector who was initially
very Cooperative but then became decidedly less so as the night wore on and it became very clear that they were
trying to make him a suspect meanwhile Patrol officers were still canvasing the neighborhood and started speaking to
Neighbors about Hector all of whom were shocked to hear that he was even being considered a
suspect Yeah by all accounts Hector was quoted quote an indulgent parent and grandfather oh and hardly seem the
killer type one neighbor told the Press later that day quote he just couldn't be
the murderer why he loves children he has seven grandchildren of his own and he'd spent every minute with him that
with them that he could he couldn't have killed that little girl no like they were just like no no it doesn't sound
like it at all the more investigators learned about Hector the less likely it seemed that he was a sadistic killer of
a six-year-old girl he was very actively involved in his community engaged regularly with friends and neighbors and
according to to those who knew him best he was quote harmless as a fly wow now more importantly though Hector's wife
told police her husband always went to bed at 10: p.m. and he had indeed been in bed around that time on the night
Suzanne was taken from her room yeah and also many other people in the neighborhood reported seeing a
suspicious bareheaded heavys set man either parked or driving slowly through the neighborhood in a gray car around
2:00 a.m. a description that didn't match Hector that's such a creepy description
I know I don't know it's just like you put it all together at 2 a.m. bald heavy set man driving a gray car slowly
through a neighborhood and you have to think like this person climbed up a ladder and took a child out of their bed
and then went right back down that letter ladder like yeah a six-year-old is like a pretty grown child you know
absolutely like I don't think I just don't think an older man did this no I don't think again I don't know what
shape Hector is in or anything like that but but he's like a grandfather Seven Grand I don't know it just doesn't feel
right now but then you hear that that description and you're like I feel like that could be him yeah it seems a little
right now A Coroner's inquest was held on January 9th where it was established that Suzanne's cause of death had been
strangulation wow and the disarticulation had been done with a large sharp knife postmortem um it had
not been done by a hacksaw or Hatchet which are the two things that were taken from Hector's house the corner told the
Press quote it was a very clean job with absolutely no signs of hacking as would
be evident if a dull instrument was used also several medical experts testified at the inquest saying the killer was
definitely someone that was familiar with anatomy and demonstrated expertise that one might have if they were a
butcher or a hunter oh wow and Jerry Kars from the coroner's office said quote the killer had to be an expert at
cutting meat because the body was separated at the joints oh God not even the a average doctor could be so
skillful it has to be a meat cutter so these medical experts are like it is a meat cutter that's so even just to think
about that detail it really is horrible to think of it that way oh God this is like this is a lot I know that's why I
had to separate this into two parts because even though the second part is mostly about you know what happened in
the investigation it's like this is a lot I'm like freaking out over here now despite the evidence pointing very much
away from Hector detectives remained solely focused on him as their Prime Suspect after
evidence he's not a butcher he's not a butcher and he has an alibi he has an alibi he has character PE Witnesses
they're all like nah and it's like his Alibi is just as good as one of the first guys in one of those murders that
his girlfriend was like no he was with me it's like his wife was like no he went to bed oh this gets worse no as if
to justify their focus detective Jack hanran told reporters quote in the furnace at Hector's apartment building
several small bones were also found which might have been from the arms of little Suzanne what
literally told reporters that a detective said to reporters we found little bones in this
man's furnace they might be this murder victim's little armb Bones on what [ __ ] grounds do you
have to say that because guess what no they're not what upon analysis the bones were [ __ ] animal bones
and the but that fact when it came out didn't receive any attention because detective Jack there had already been
like way in his maybe these are tiny little baby armb bones you think think about that like that's him literally
being like wow isn't that [ __ ] up like you have no [ __ ] basis to sit here and
suggest that these bones are from her arms who the [ __ ] are you you're a detective you don't know [ __ ] name one
of those bones seriously phone in the arm detective Jack i g [ __ ] guarantee you you can't do you think too that like
obviously infuriates me yeah obviously there's media pressure here but you also said this man is an immigrant I'm sure
racism played a part in this thank you for saying that because that does play into it 100% yes exactly it is
infuriating infuriating to think that this man went to reporters and said we found bones in the
furnace and before having any information about that you're supposed to say that [ __ ] you idiot like bones at
all but then to insinuate and then to just be like I don't know maybe they're Baby armb Bones I who's to say like it's
just like what where the [ __ ] did that come from like who even says that that's
insane like you're an idiot I want to like junk punch this man honestly I don't know where he is Jack Hanrahan
like I'm going to junk punch you someday but you were from the 40s so I was like
I think he's probably dead you've probably been junk punched but either way already I think you got Junk punched
exactly so life junk punched you I'm sure but they were animal bones but again no one no one got
that other thing no they're all just sitting there being like Oh my god did you hear did you hear about found arm
bones in his furnace like that's you you know that's what everybody's saying oh my God this poor man yeah so for their
part the Press did little to exercise any objectivity or practice responsible journalism at all at all frequently
mixing the gruesome details of the case with statements about Hector and emphasizing his immigrant status of
course I knew that was coming limited English language skills are you [ __ ] like what what the [ __ ] does that have
to do with anything if the man has good English skills or not doesn't matter that everyone around him thinks he's a
great guy and that he has seven grandchildren has an alibi has a wife that's willing to cooperate corroborate
his Alibi and look English is our first language and we just stumbled exactly are you [ __ ] kidding and collects
toys fixes them up and gives them to Children whose families cannot afford them yeah let's forget all that and just
be like well he's an immigrant what the [ __ ] okay yeah that definitely that thank you totally that's but isn't that
like genuinely so insane that some people's minds think like that like they will completely ignore that chunk of
information and just look at well he's an immigrant well he's an immigrant it's like okay and it's like okay literally
nothing to do with this but thank you so much playing and in the days after the murder James futel a neighbor of hectors
recalls how some people began to turn on Hector no he said quote one of the tenants in our building came rushing up
to me red-faced and wild-eyed declaring that they should have lynched him oh my God Jesus Christ and this is this is the
detectives and the press's fault yeah absolutely 100% And racist fault although he had been charged with any
crime whatsoever investigators continued to question and harass Hector and his wife demanding that he consent to a
polygraph examination when he refused and continued to protest cuz he's like what the [ __ ] I didn't do anything their
tactics became more aggressive and they attempted to beat a confession out of this grandfather my God however when
even a literal vicious beating failed to elicit a confession cuz he not ad to killing up
child beat the [ __ ] out of him still wouldn't confess cuz he's like I didn't kill a child I'm not going to agree to
it good for detectives released Hector and declared him to no longer be a suspect reasoning
that if he still denied any involvement after and this is what they said by the way they said if he denied any
involvement still after suffering such abuse he must be innocent that's what the detective said so they were
literally like after we like [ __ ] him up if he didn't say anything I guess he's innocent oh my God it's cool wow
what great police work the trauma just inflicted on this man and then you sent him back into community that you've now
tainted oh and it gets worse no no how so James futel that neighbor later told reporters quote I heard what they did to
Hector he had a shoulder separated that left him permanently disabled are you [ __ ] kidding me following his release
from custody he went straight to the hospital for treatment for his injuries that they inflicted upon him where he
told a nurse and this is a quote no I don't even want to know oh they hanged me up they blindfolded me I can't put up
my arms they are so sore they had handcuffed on me for hours and hours they threw me in a cell and blindfolded
me they handcuffed my hands behind my back and pulled me up on bars until my toes touched the floor I didn't eat I go
right to the hospital oh I am so sick anymore and I would have confessed to anything so what you're saying is that
they tortured this man like [ __ ] medieval style medieval style and even he said so he went through all that and
still was like I did not kill this little girl like I'm not admitting to it but even he said anymore and I would
have confessed to anything and that's what they were aiming for they didn't want to catch you
actually stole this baby out of their bed in the middle of the [ __ ] night strangled her in a dank basement and
dismembered her and threw her body parts into a [ __ ] sewer they just wanted everybody to stop being mean to
them by wrongfully detaining beating and trying to they were going to like this guy was going to go to death going kill
him yeah like that guy was going to get the death penalty and it's like they were going to kill this grandfather he
was either going to get the death penalty or any of those treatments to an elderly man could have killed him and
this should tell you that like I'm like how much they care about actually closing the case with the real person
who did it and how much they care about just having someone get the fall the fall for it so
that everybody stops being mean to them I'm like are we nearing the end of part one because this has truly been the most
we are nearing the end so holy [ __ ] the Chicago Police Department denied that any abuse had occurred of course but the
but Hector and his wife and another suspect who was briefly detained during this time filed a civil suit against
seven members of the department if you tell me that they didn't win this [ __ ] suit I'm leaving alleging
physical abuse false arrest and unlawful search and they won the night before the
Civil Trial was set to begin the Chicago Police Department settled for $220,000 so bada Boop you know exactly
what that means that's called hush money that's called yep we did it now shut the
[ __ ] up $20,000 obviously I know that was like a lot more back then and at $20,000
billions of dollars for what happened but that's split amongst two people first of all and they medieval tortured
this man are you [ __ ] kidding me now the flagrant abuse of suspects and Reckless release of information to the
Press because they were just leaking everything reflected the absolute desperation and frustration by the
investigators as the public outcry GRE grew louder the Ross and brown murders had been horrible and terrified the
women of Chicago but the murder of Suzanne degnan not only intensified local outrage but it also made a story
the story National interest at this point yeah under increasing pressure to solve the case detectives began
speculating and grasping at literally anything that even remotely resembled a clue to make it appear as though they
were making Headway in the case good police when the hector ver verberg Theory fell through they began
theorizing that at 74 pounds Suzanne would have been too heavy for one person to carry so there must have been two
kidnappers now so that's after they beat the [ __ ] out of an old band they said
actually now that I think about it they're like oops I guess there's two and not this
grandfather who we just beat death is so dark now in the meantime they continued
arresting and questioning various suspects including a man recently released from a psychiatric hospital and
a local black man who was subjected to a polygraph exam but was ruled out when he
passed the test they also had like no evidence to arrest him which yeah this police force is racist as [ __ ] despite
their best efforts in massive amount of resources directed at the investigation cuz there was so many resources that's
the other really sad thing about that is they had all the resources yeah and they
were using them very poorly um after spending five months chasing down more than 3,000 tips conducting over 300
interviews performing 170 polygraph examinations detectives were no closer to finding who killed Suzanne degnan and
out of the lead out of completely out of leads at this point and with no suspects
to question investigators were desperate for any opportunity to close the case even even if the opportunity really
wasn't a good fit and that's where we're going to end for part one that has truly been one of the most
gruesome stories I think you've ever told yeah obviously so important to tell like no matter what because terrifying
one holy [ __ ] but the fact that at the end of this I just I have the feeling in
my gut based on like your looks when you say certain things that Justice is absolutely not going to get served here
I'm so irate yeah it's now like this is wow I need you to cover a case where people don't get brutalized like try to
give you I'll try to give you I know I think I said last time I was going to do some kind of pal cleanser sorry that's
okay I mean it's morbid so something people are expecting it I'll do something a little uh haunted haunted we
need a haunted I'll give you a haunted for my next one I'll take a moment after part two that is yeah no but the the way
you put this together is interesting and compelling what's fascinating and like Dave said this too we both we went into
this thinking one thing and I had no idea really the ins and outs of this like the politics of this and everything
that ended up shaking out in the wash yeah it's very you're like Oh I thought I knew who the lipstick killer was and
you don't yeah and I don't the well maybe I do but I a but I thought I knew someone else as the lipstick killer okay
I've always heard of the lipstick killer but I never knew any of the details like
whatsoever for thought there was like lipstick messages at every scene like I I think I just assumed that throughout
hearing about it wait until we kind of touch on that message again in part two no part two has a lot of [ __ ] that
you're going to be like I'm sorry what I get to the point where I don't even know
what to say sometimes with like the complete no that it's like me and the Lizzy Bo and I again no I get to the
point where I don't know what to say though because of the complete just like so asinine sometimes that you're just
like I don't have words for that we're going to be talking about a lot of of mishandling and a lot of shady ass
investigative work if you can even call it that that makes us so angry I feel like like there's a myriad of things
that make us angry in a case but like the mishandling and the level to which some people mishandle a case is just you
sit there like how did you even feel good about this yeah that's the thing like how do you rest your head at night
and how do you go like Poe for the pictures like we we got like [ __ ] offs it always reminds me of West memphi
3 when because that is so infuriating when they just [ __ ] patted themselves on the back and were like we got them
and it's like three kids to prison yeah um but actually I forgot Mikey just let me know cuz I never know our schedule
that um we do have a there is a pallet cleanser in between these two cases so you you heard the one two girls one
ghost Lizzie bordon oh my God so it was like a nice for that's between so like okay in so you'll hear me go no so no
all right well with all of that being said and you're welcome for the pallet cleanser we hope that you keep listening
and we hope you keep it weird but not so weird as the Chicago Police Department when all this [ __ ] was going down
because woo oh hell no oh my [Music] God [Music]

On June 5, 1945, forty-three-year-old Josephine Ross was found stabbed to death in her Chicago apartment. Nothing had been stolen from Ross’ apartment and it appeared as though there were ritualistic aspects to the murder, but with little evidence and no suspects, the case hit a dead end almost as soon as it started. Ross’ murder came to detectives’ minds six months later, when another Chicago woman, Frances Brown, was found murdered in her apartment. This time an ominous message was scrawled on the wall in red lipstick: “For heavens sake catch me before I kill more I cannot control myself.”

The brutal nature of the two murders, and the implication that the killer would strike again, terrified the women of Chicago, and that fear was stoked by the city’s five major newspapers, who were in a daily battle for readers’ attention. The story reached a fever pitch just one month later when six-year-old Suzanne Degnan was abducted from her bedroom by someone who’d entered through an open window. Despite the presence of a ransom note demanding $20,000, investigators discovered Degnan’s dismembered body in the sewer a short time later.

Thank you to the incredible Dave white of Bring Me the Axe & 99 Cent Rental Podcast for research!

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the Lipstick Killer and the brutal murders of Josephine Ross, Francis Brown, and Suzanne Degnan, highlighting police mishandling and media sensationalism.

Key points

Josephine Ross's Life. Josephine Ross, a newly widowed mother, finds herself navigating life alone before tragedy strikes.
The Investigation Begins. Detectives rule out robbery and suspect a personal motive behind Josephine's murder.
Media Attention Fades. As leads dry up, the press loses interest in Josephine's murder, moving on to newer stories.
The Discovery of Francis Brown. Cleaning woman Martha Engles finds Francis Brown's body in a gruesome scene.
Chilling Message Left Behind. A message in lipstick reveals the killer's chilling intent: 'For Heaven's Sake, catch me before I kill more.'
The Investigation Stalls. Detectives struggle to make progress in the case, suspecting a serial killer is at work.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

What the [ __ ]?

Reaction to the discovery of the murder scene.

8:36WatchMar 21, 2024

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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