The Kidnapping & Murder of Marion Parker (Part 2) | Morbid | Podcast | Forensic Files

hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is [Music] morbid small small in the afternoon it's
a It's a Spooky rainy afternoon today oh my God the Thunder I don't know why would talking
like this I don't know either it feels very big Edge the glasses got to GL the mirror got to
happen it's my favorite thing ever man I love it I love big an rip my sweet queen
we're just trying to make ourselves laugh before like yes we're in part two of the um kidnapping and murder of
Marian Parker and I will say that the the absolute worst is over okay part one now we're just going to go to the
absolute zaniness of what happened afterwards I hope it's not zany in a way where I'm going to be so horrifically
pissed off you no oh okay at the end you will go yeah yeah at the very end so know that going in know that any frust
ations you feel I just feel like we all need this we don't need to be on the edge of our seats no any frustration you
feel at the end you're going to go yeah yeah she's doing like a little tell you that the tiniest fist bump but like with
the biggest impact hell yeah okay all right all right let's go but it's going to be wild
it's going to be wild nois is here in these parts here in these parts so when we left you in part one uh they had
discovered that William Hickman was the murderer he was 19 years old they were pursuing him all over the damn place the
fact that he's 19 is still boggling my [ __ ] mind yes they had spotted him in Portland Oregon um and then
that's where a gas station attendant had seen him filling his tank and like I said before by this point his photograph
was literally everywhere you could not go somewhere without seeing this man's photograph um so they were getting
sightings all over the place and the last one they got was that um someone said they saw him headed in the
direction of the Columbia River Gorge yeah that made me nervous now from the moment reporters were made aware of
Marian's kidnapping the Press went wild as we talked about I mean they pursued this case crazy yeah but once the
suspect was named and the investigators began their Interstate pursuit of William Hickman the coverage increased
like a h hundredfold i mean in papers across California and honestly the Pacific Northwest as a whole the police
Chase was chronicled in all the front page stories this was the biggest story cuz you said this was like one of the
most one of the biggest manh hunts in La history right oh yeah it was massive nuts massive but that wasn't all during
the first week of the investigation newspapers included dozens of it wasn't just front page it was like all these
articles in all of the newspapers I mean dozens of them and like talking about the kidnapper now that they had the
identity um I mean it would it would take up like five pages in a newspaper like daily damn so it was like Prime
real estate it was taken up a lot of people's days everyone was getting fed constant information about this which
was feeding everyone's anger and everyone's like just sense of justice and wanting to get this guy like this
guy had I don't know where he thought he was going to go there was not a safe Corner in this Earth for him yeah it
reminds me of like the nightstalker where every just thinking yeah he there's no safe place on Earth for you
[ __ ] like so we're looking for you your photograph is everywhere and when we see you you're going to get [ __ ]
you're going to get got but in in now like decades and decades later similar events like the one that we all think of
probably in our minds like the slow motion OJ Simpson car chase in 1994 that was the same kind of coverage that this
was receiving like not on the television but in 1927 nothing was covered like this
so it's like when when the OJ Simpson Cas happened that was massive news but we had seen that kind of coverage before
like or that was at least like you know the one of the ones that stands out in everyone's mind in 1927 unprecedented
like this was the first of its kind to really do this um and this kind of coverage like it does now when something
like like we've seen this like it does now when people cover it like this like one of the ones I think of is like the
Gabby petito case yes how it was covered so care like closely and minute by minute and we were all so invested in it
we were so invested in Gabby and like just really wanting this like good outcome it also gives people like the
impression that they are like along for this like they feel like toe to- Toe with law enforcement almost and it also
adds a more emotional investment in the case like it makes you feel like this is
someone you know yes when it's covered like that it like really makes you feel like you're part of it oh ab and that's
how people felt with this they felt like Maran was theirs and that this guy they
were going to [ __ ] find him cuz you can relate to that on some human level like not not all the details obviously
but but like anybody with a soul can look at this and empathize and say holy [ __ ] like I can like I'm here with you
and let's get this [ __ ] exactly now as investigators trailed Hickman from one one state you know to another all across
the Northwest they were thinking that this would hopefully all be over soon and they would just have their killer
they were not enjoying this like wild goose chase Chief Herman Klein told reporters on the night of um December
21st because remember this is all happening in the span of like a week it feels like so much has happened it's
also crazy that it's just like literally like days before Christmas days before Christmas is is happening he told
reporters the search in my opinion is near its end we are all hopeful that here that the search will provide
success will prove successful and that the fiend will be under arrest within a few hours I also miss when people would
be referred to as fiends because it's a very good way to describe someone like this like he is a [ __ ] fiend fiend is
perfect you know it just feels right um luckily Chief Klein's confidence would prove to be well placed because on the
afternoon of December 22nd the day after two police officers in Echo Oregon spotted Hickman driving and recognized
him from the wall posters and they started giving Chase [ __ ] when he saw the sirens he pulled off the side of
the road and when the officer appeared at his car he asked whether he had been speeding and that's why he was pulled
over not exactly so they asked him to identify himself and he said his name was PE and he was headed he was from
Seattle just peek but then when they asked him to step out of the car a pistol fell from his pants pocket and
that kind of gave him away yeah that'll do it after a brief round of questioning
Hickman gave up the RO and exhaustedly said yes I am Edward Hickman will Edward Hickman you're William Edward Hickman
people went by their midle names a lot back then I feel like people still do even yeah it's true but way more common
back then you're right now on the morning of December 23rd the day before Christmas Eve wow readers all across
California were very relieved to hear that the quote unquote Fox who had absolutely terrified and terrorized them
for the previous week had finally been caught I forgot that he was referring to himself as the fox the fox like gets so
[ __ ] it adds such a juvenile level to something so not juvenile in any way it's very 19-year-old it is like you
know at first Hickman attempted to deny having anything to do with Marian's kidnapping or murder good luck with that
but before long he kind of got confronted with all the [ __ ] evidence against him so he came up with a new
story before a crowd of reporters in law enforcement he kind of proudly explained
that he had been supporting himself on the money he'd made from smalltime holdups and that's when he met Andrew
Kramer and June Dunning a couple from San Diego and he said we just held up drugstores in places like that but he
said what he really wanted was to pull a job that would earn him about $1,500 so he could return to college in
Kansas City which is when the three of them came up with the idea to kidnap Marian
Parker she he said I happen to remember that Mr Parker from the bank had a daughter and he added that there she was
actually their second choice the first one they were going to do but they abandoned the plan was to kidnap one of
the chief officers at the bank wow and I just realized that's why when he went into school he asked for the daughter
because he would see her go to the bank with him exactly because she loved to go
to work with her dang with her dad cuz they had such a tight Bond wow yeah so he watched this man have this close
relationship with his daughter who loved him and adored him and he was like yeah
that's what I'm going to do 12 years old yeah now this story he just told was like partially true in the year leading
up to the kidnapping Hickman had been involved in several smalltime armed robberies including one where a
pharmacist and a police officer were shot and seriously wounded oh my goodness um but these robberies had been
committed with his high school friend wellby hunt right not Andrew Kramer June Dunning and in fact as far as anyone
could tell they couldn't even find evidence to support that Kramer Dunning even existed I was waiting for that but
Hickman stuck to his story that it was Kramer not he who had murdered Marian Bri Seinfeld in fact he claimed to the
Los Angeles Times Marian and I were like brother and sister she liked me but did
not like Kramer and said she would like to stay with me all the time no that's not the truth now this
your [ __ ] eyes open how dare you yeah he how dare you now the story that he initially told investigators was bizarre
and very dubious according to Hickman quote he only wanted 200 or 300 out of the
1500 and they had planned to return the girl unharmed once the ransom was delivered and he confessed to writing
and sending the telegrams to The Parkers because remember he's got to make sure oh yeah yeah I totally did that part but
I just didn't do the one big thing right um but he said and he said he had made things seem much worse than they truly
were just to get Perry Parker to act faster okay which they do believe is the truth is probably true but in reality he
said he made it a point of making sure Marian was always safe she promised not to make any noise he said and he said so
I didn't tie her down and we drove around all afternoon and went to a show that night at the Rialto Theater in
Alhambra really yeah they don't know if that's true okay according to hman it was Andrew Kramer who killed Maran he
said once they returned from the movies Kramer supposedly took Maran while Hickman placed that call to the Parker
house because remember he's setting it up so that all the things make sense yep that he's involved in he did the calls
one thing we can't proof but not the murder yeah so he said he made the call to the Parker House he went to send the
telegrams and Kramer took Marion and he said when Hickman next saw Kramer at the
Belleview arms on the 17th Kramer was carrying a suitcase and quote opened it up to reveal Marian's decapitated body
okay Kramer told Hickman the girl had been crying too much and he decided to stop her permanently and said that the
police had become too suspicious anyways and too much a part of this so they were
going to abandon the plans and move on anyway okay and Hickman said I am terribly sorry she was killed because I
sure liked her and then he started to cry strange now that night a California grand jury convened at 7:20 p.m. and
within an hour Superior judge Hardy issued an extradition order and a warrant for Hickman's arrest Chief Klein
and several other leads on the case were immediately sent to Oregon to pick him up uh He was ordered to be held at a Los
Angeles jail cell without bail pending his trial and in the meantime reporters raced to Kansas City to get a statement
from his family and friends um they were all stunned to learn of his arrest his mother Eva told reporters this is all so
muddled I've been so puzzled over it they are hounding my boy to death just because they have a
clue I think they have a couple clues also this is a clue and a murder ma'am well that's I'm like just because they
have a clue that your child murdered some other child and she then broke down into sobs
and yelled my God my God they'll kill him they'll kill him they won't even give him a chance to say anything for
himself which you feel for her like that like holy [ __ ] yeah you know what I mean
like that you're like oh my God I can't even imagine that being no told to you that this giant thing that everyone's
been following of this child who was mutilated after being kidnapped and murdered your child did that yeah no
although they were deeply skeptical of his story investigators in Los Angeles you know set out to do their due
diligence and they went searching for Andrew Kramer and June Dunning yeah quickly learned that well maybe they
were real people perhaps they the people who kind of matched the who they were were definitely not murderous
accomplices described by hi Hickman I figured as much Oliver Andrew Kramer who went by his middle name H had been an
acquaintance of Hickman in Los Angeles but he had been in prison since August 1927 and so he definitely couldn't be an
accomplice in kidnapping and murder yep no also Kramer did at once have a at one
point have a girlfriend with the last name Dunning but investigators learned that June Dunning was that woman's
sister oh okay uh coincidentally in their pursuit of this the supposed accomplices
investigators located a second man named Frank Andrew Kramer who also had a girlfriend named Dunning and this was
just coincidence yeah but her first name was Mabel and she had died nine months earlier okay even more coincidentally
Frank Andrew Dunning had also been in jail since August so he too would not be able to have helped Hickman that's crazy
very weird coincidences when he was informed by a member of the press that his supposed accomplices had been in
jail since August yeah and you know some of them did not know him or exist Hickman laughed and said when I get to
Los Angeles I want to see Kramer and would like to see the girl too what and then he went on to
speculate that Andrew Kramer with whom he'd been operating with could have used the name of a man in jail saying that is
strange it can't be okay yeah Chief kleene however definitely openly refuted these claims he said the story of
Hickman having an accomplice is an absolute absurdity and he said we previously checked out every angle of
his asserted accomplice and have found the story completely false and completely weak yeah it sounds that way
now if Edward Hickman didn't have accomplices then that would mean that he was solely responsible for every
horrible thing that happened to Maran Parker but what everyone wanted to know was why why did he do it it seemed
impossible that he would have kidnapped murdered and mutilated a child for $1,500 yeah and if not for his reason
that he said most simply assume that he was not sane they were like he has to be
insane in fact even before he left Oregon for Los Angeles Hickman himself had begun to openly question his own
sanity uh in his holding cell in Pendleton organ he asked a guard and this is I he was clearly just trying to
see how he should should act he said how does a fellow act when he's crazy tell me this man's didn't answer no that same
guard would later tell a reporter that Hickman seemed proud of what he did and regarded his death notes quote unquote
that he sent to Perry Parker as his quote masterpieces wow yeah so he's just [ __ ] deranged just a piece of [ __ ]
now when Hickman PRI while he was you know pondering his own sanity out loud for everyone to hear yeah uh
psychiatrists in Oregon very public refuted the notion that he was insane according to psychiatrist Dr WD McNary
who evaluated Hickman while he was being held in Oregon he said his mind seemed clear he told a straight coherent story
and never was at a loss for words there was nothing about him to indicate Insanity that's even scarier now mcar
acknowledged that he had only spent a short time with Hickman and so he said I can't make any definitive you know
diagnosis yeah but in his opinion he said he didn't seem be suffering from any symptoms associated with any kind of
deviancy that one would expect from a killer wow um he did say he says that he does not like girls that he is deeply
religious and that he his ambition was to become a minister I mean there was that weird
aspect of like him questioning um Perry's Christianity in there absolutely I don't know what that has to do with
like anything else though now in hindsight it's pretty clear that Edward Hickman was enjoying the per formative
and dramatic aspects of the chaos that he had created um you know the cryptic telegrams his public de declarations
like he's really feeding into it yeah but what's less clear is like what is the truth and what isn't he's told
several stories now and he's like switched them a few times so everybody's like what is the [ __ ] truth happened
and why so while in custody in Oregon um he was he was still he did the same thing again he was pondering you know
how do crazy people act essentially and then he said that he um he said out loud
to another guard that he could avoid punishment by claiming that he was crazy uhhuh and then a short time later he all
of a sudden claimed to be profoundly religious saying that he if because he was captured it must have been that God
willed it and he said if God will it that it had to be okay so he's literally bouncing from like almost acting proud
of what he's done claiming he did some of it but not the murder uh-huh then saying no I didn't do it and now he's
saying I'm crazy and then he's saying NOP I'm actually super religious and God willed it yeah and it's like which where
weing who are you like what's going on maybe that's part of the problem and obviously I mean people were like maybe
it's possible he believes what he's saying here maybe but most people believed that we around him that the
second he was arrested that he just started laying the groundwork for an insanity defense like it pretty clear
cuz he wasn't as we'll see he doesn't do a good job okay he's a very smart man and really he's almost too smart to
pretend to be insane okay because he's not he's coming off too clear and too coherent and too able to organize his
thoughts so like his int his intelligence it makes it hard for him to appear disorganized and like scattered like you
would assume like a psychiatrist would assume to see in someone who was suffering from delusions or something
else um although California common law had always allowed for an accused person to claim Insanity what's now known as
diminish capacity um as their defense for their actions before 1927 this year that that we're talking
about a person I'm like I'm like it's not guys just a just a brief reminder we're not in the past yeah you did not
get in a time machine don't worry um but before 1927 a person who'd been charged
with a crime didn't have the option of pleading Not Guilty by reason of insanity huh so basically what it meant
was by claiming Insanity as your defense you had to First confess to the crime you couldn't say I am not guilty because
I am insane you had to say I'm guilty because insanee and I'm guilty like I'm guil because I'm insane ah and in 1927
isn't that interesting uh Dave found that and I was like oh that's really interesting yeah I didn't know that I'm
surprised we haven't come across that before yeah in 1927 the legislature amended the California penal code to
allow for The Plea of Not Guilty by reason of insanity where the defendant is asserting that they can't be held
criminally responsible for their actions because you are insane at the time that
you were alleged to have committed the unlawful act okay um and if that is the plea then it's up
to the judge or jury to determine whether the individual knew that their actions were illegal or immoral at the
time that they did him okay and if so they must then be held accountable for this if they knew that it was illegal or
immoral makes sense the key distinction between the former penal code and this new amended one is that in the newer one
they are pleading not guilty and if the judge or jury agrees then they effectively are acquitted
wow so it's like before that wasn't going to happen now if the judge and jury agree that you didn't know what you
were doing and you can't be held accountable you can be acquitted I wonder if there's anything in place for
you know you know getting care afterward yeah I'm 1927 who knows yeah maybe not then but hopefully now now Hickman at
this point had already confessed to kidnapping and now killing Mary and Parker okay he confessed to the whole
thing but if he entered a plea of Not Guilty by reason of insanity and a jury agreed there was a good chance that he
was just going to avoid punishment completely but first in order to do that he had the daunting tasks ahead of him
by he had to convince countless law enforcement professionals and doctors that he was truly insane okay good luck
so exactly not actually at the time of his arrest Hickman appeared to have some understanding that given the amended
laws now he could avoid responsibility for these crimes right so that tells you everything right there he knew yeah if
you have that understanding I'm I'm not going to bet money that you're insane or
or were at that time he went into this knowing if I convince everybody that I'm insane I can just go scot-free right but
what he didn't know was how to convince people that he was insane that's why he's asking people yeah uh his attempt
to convince Dr McNary that his crimes had been the result of his extreme um religiosity essentially religiosity
There Was You Know Divine command was given to him it it was completely unex unsuccessful yeah they didn't buy it um
in fact the doctor told a reporter I would not say that his aversion and this is interesting they really like um
because we're in the 20s of course they really harp on like how he didn't like girls oh okay but with this one he says
I would not say that his aversion to women is evidence of perversion nor do I think that his religious convictions are
so pronounced as to produce a hallucination that God will that he commit this act yeah so he's like I
don't think he has any kind of perversions like you know in that sense and I don't think he's so religious that
he's like hallucinating God telling him to do things it doesn't seem like that to me either but he's trying to convince
people he is now Hickman is realizing that he couldn't convince the guards that he was insane and in fact had asked
them how to act crazy quote unquote which like why'd you do that why that and he's a smart guy that's the worst
part about this and now Dr McNary is like no I don't buy it either like I don't buy the religious component I
don't buy any of it nice try he realized I need to up my game so when Chief Klein
and district attorney Keys arrived in Oregon to take Hickman back to Los Angeles where they were going to pursue
the death penalty and he knew Hickman started losing it according to one reporter he was quote writing on the
floor of the cell in the jail moaning I did not kill her I did not kill her then
he leaped at the bars and loudly threatened to dash his brains out against the steel
enclosure go for it the performance caused many people to speculate uh maybe he is
insane but Keys quickly dismissed that belief telling reporters of course he's not insane he's merely assuming that
pose I presume for mercy and so everybody around him was like [ __ ] off nice try while Hickman made his best
attempt at proving and Performing what he thought was Insanity at at the jail cell reporters detectives and
investigators from the DA's office started digging into his background because they were like all
right you want to claim this let's see let's see what we got back here so uh Hickman's parents had divorced when he
was 12 years old and his mom moved him and his siblings to Kansas City Missouri uh when he got there he soon became a
very popular student he was a star athlete a member of the newspaper the yearbook committee he was the one of the
strongest members of the debate team he was like well well-rounded that's so crazy but he had a dark side okay that
had started showing in little bits by the time his family had arrived in Missouri he started shoplifting around
age 11 uh and that soon escalated to petty theft and eventually armed robbery most people didn't know about the thefts
and robberies he hept it pretty Under Wraps but there were still signs of like something going on like he had a lot of
he had honestly a lot of success after arriving at his new school like we talked about star athlete debate team
yearbook all that [ __ ] um but his first defeat in the school's oratory competition was such a crushing blow to
his Eagle Eagle such a crush so upset it was such a crushing blow to his ego and like the way he handled it was
so not normal like he it was what he do he it was just he he couldn't handle it like he couldn't get over it it was
unhealthy the way he was hanging on to it and how angry he got about it like he it was immediate rage like it like he
couldn't take the defeat he could not take that he wasn't the best wow and it immediately went into like rage and and
so and everybody was like okay is going to get over this but he didn't like he brooded on it for like a long time held
on to it like it and this is just like him losing a competition at school right and they said and soon there was
noticeable changes in him and they were definitely for the worse the older he got the more suen more disinterested he
became he didn't really Express empathy or care for others very well okay and he
showed almost no interest or enthusiasm for work and often quit jobs not long after starting huh and these negative
traits became the norm once he met wellby hunt and they started on their criminal career together yeah in their
robbery spree during 1926 to 1927 Hickman quickly lost any reluctance to use a gun he was like sure let's go uh
there was a robbery in Los Angeles where he shot and killed a pharmacist and badly wounded an LAPD officer yeah uh
that was the one we talked about before he actually killed the farm phis wow um there were other incidents where he was
actually suspected of murder in other situations but was never charged during a 1927 gas station robbery in
Pennsylvania all the way across the country a man matching his description shot and killed the cashier Jesus
investigators also learned a lot from wellby hunt who told him on a um on one occasion while the two of them were
staying with his family in alhamra Hickman told him that quote it was his wish to get someone and chop them up in
little pieces and throw them along the highway oh yeah okay yeah it's horrifying that
that's kind of what happened like to to a degree literally and so investigators were looking at this and saying huh he
is getting increasingly more violent that is a violent statement to make like it's not looking like insanity it's
looking like he's an angry and violent man yeah following his arrival in the LA uh
Hickman underwent a ton of psychological tests from a number of doctors and all of them felt he exhibited sanity in his
response to their questions about the murder and dismemberment of Marian Parker wow so they think he's completely
samean that's so scary also they all noted that he was very clearly intelligent and he had an advanced
communication uh skill set um in in fact he seemed Adept at avoiding any questions that might incriminate him or
reveal criminality he was actually pretty good at that although Hickman likely thought he was in control of the
situation throughout these interviews because that's the kind of person he is it was really his cunning and
clear-headedness during all of this that undermined his claims of insanity and just kind of it didn't help like the
more like he thought he was like working around [ __ ] and being really cunning and
like figuring it all out they were like yeah we see you doing that and that's not someone who's insane someone who's
sitting here knowing what to pull and when to pull like you know it's like you're you're so smart dumb some people
really are ass your Dart uh so it was during this time that Hickman began to make up
a story that he would use in his defense in court it was the story that he would
really hang on to at least through Court when directly by one of the psychiatrists whether he believed he was
insane Hickman responded I don't think I'm insane it was claimed for me and he went on to explain in writing
he said the murder of Marian Parker and the horrible terrible simply awful mutilation of Marian Parker's helpless
body a separate Deed from the kidnapping of Marian Parker a distinct crime done in Blood by my own hands on the morning
of December 17th 1927 in the bathtub in apartment number 315 at at the Belleview
Arms apartment of Los Angeles California was not mean by me Edward Hickman but through me under the guidance and
protection of and as a duty to this great Providence for the great work which it has been calling me since the
age of 12 to perform for the Safety and Security of Human Rights and Liberties in the United States of
America so he's trying to come off cray cray apparently so that I don't know if that's that's weird and I don't know
what he's really saying there so luckily they they also felt that way at first they were like we need to clarify this a
little bit um they did eventually figure out what he was trying to say but what the defense his defense was that he
kidnapped murdered and mutilated Mar and Parker because a God that he referred to
as Providence had commanded him to do that okay that's what that was saying all right that yeah sure a very
long-winded way of saying that on January 3rd 1928 Hickman appeared in California Supreme Court with his
attorney Jerome Walsh where as expected he entered a plea of Not Guilty by reason of insanity and for the first
time since his arrest he seemed to be taking it seriously finally cuz before this he seemed like he was just going to
dance all around and get out of this through his own cunning now he kind of felt like he he was like I don't know if
it's working yeah he's like doesn't look like it's working on my on my behalf he
was just staring the entire entire time at the floor the only time he spoke was when the judge asked if he understood
that his plea constituted an admission of guilt and he said yes yeah um a trial date was set for January 25th and the
judge hoping to expedite the trial exercised his right to examine the jury members himself rather than go through
the whole jury selection process that would definitely delay the trial because there would be so many objections by the
defense yeah the judge's decision to examine the jurors the respective jurors on his own it was probably good because
after a month of dense news coverage there was no one in California who hadn't formed a pretty strong opinion of
this case but that wasn't the only thing working against the defense Hickman had
now changed crucial parts of his story multiple times which meant his credibility was just sh yeah it was just
[ __ ] when he was arrested he claimed he had participated in the kidnapping as a
means of getting money for college but he was emphatic that it was his accomplice Andrew Kramer who had
murdered Marian Parker right once the existence of the accomplices had been disproven he said oh yeah just kidding
and changed his story and now claimed that he was insane and had committed the kidnapping and murder himself and the
mutilation all by himself but at the behest of providence of some God he called Providence okay so finally it
seemed that it was like it was really his own hubris that seemed to be working against him because in his attempts like
I said to manipulate all the doctors and law enforcement professionals which he was like ah I've got this Hickman had
just undermined his own claims of Insanity by being entirely coherent and having no disordered thinking at all in
fact nearly every Doctor Who evaluated him said Not only was he incredibly intelligent but he didn't associate any
symptoms of psychotic thinking he said like he wasn't even good at faking it he wasn't he didn't even seem stressed like
he was just totally coherent and fine it's like dude if Providence is asking all these things of you you might be a
little stressed you might be under a little bit of you know a little bit of stress yeah now the trial began January
25th 1928 at the Hall of Justice in downtown Los Angeles which I was like wow what a name the Hall of Justice
Justice sounds like something in a superhero movie it does it really does um but there was like a massive very
unruly and very angry mob I believe it just camped out and the trial was immediately halted when in response to a
motion filed by the defense judge Carlos Hardy agreed to step down due to what the defense claimed was his bias and
Prejudice the case was reassigned to judge JJ truko and the defense immediately objected to him as well but
he refused to step down yeah and instead began jury elction in the case also find
a [ __ ] person that's not going to have any bias in this case you murdered a 12-year-old dismembered her and so her
open like shut the [ __ ] up and judge Hardy was right to take on the you know the the job of going through the
prospective jurors because the jury selection took nearly a week just to get the first figur out wow um the case
finally began on February 2nd like actually began since Hickman had already conf confess to the kidnapping and
murder at this point the stated purpose of the trial was really just to determine his sanity and pass the
sentence before reading the indictment judge tabuco reminded the jury of the standard of accountability and declared
their purpose as this had the party sufficient mental capacity to appreciate the character and quality of the ACT did
he know and understand that it was a violation of the rights of another and in itself wrong if he had the capacity
to appreciate the character and comprehend the possible or probable consequences of his act he is
responsible to the law for the ACT thus committed and is to be judged accordingly now the prosecutor d da um
ASA keys I think it's ASA ASA okay yeah I would say ASA uh he clearly articulated the state's theory that it
was Vengeance that motivated Hickman to kill not mental illness agree they actually brought out the uh which nobody
knew up until this point that Perry Parker was was one of the people who testified against him at the hearing
over his Forge checks oh [ __ ] and as a result they theorized that he devised this horrific scheme to get back at the
bank and Parker was just one of those that was caught up in it by kidnapping his daughter and killing her also the
plan had never truly been about money at all in fact by the time Hickman called to arrange for the second exchange Maran
was already dead right so they were like I think it was mostly Revenge he's a piece of [ __ ]
wow now the first witness called to testify was detective Lieutenant Richard Lucas who was among the detectives sent
to Oregon to transport Hickman back to LA Lucas said that among other things Hickman had been particularly interested
in whether the detective thought he would qualify for the insanity defense imagine that he said he told me that he
would throw a fit for the judge and asked me what I thought of the fit he had thrown in the Pendleton jail there
it is yeah Marian's teacher Mary Holtz was also called to testify but she had become so emotionally and physically
fragile at this time that she actually needed her husband's assistance to even reach the witness stand oh wow so when I
I I meant it when I said she shouldered the weight of what had happened um she told the story of the day Marian was
abducted and told the jury oh I can think of many things I could have done now I never would have let Maran go but
for the apparent sincerity and disarming manner of this man wow um as with the doctors and other experts that followed
her testimony only demonstrated more that this guy yeah he was far from a raving lunatic that they're all trying
to make him yeah he's 19 years old and like I said I think in part one he was able to convince this woman in a
position of you know like Authority that he he was fine to go take this girl and
they and it only proed further that he had been very lucid and very calculating and that this plan was meticulously done
and performed right um the day also included graphic crime scene photos including photos of maran's body oh wow
which caused one of the female jurors to collapse and they had to recess um acting on behalf of Hickman
was Jerome Walsh like we said who offered into evidence a handwritten confession that was done by Hickman
during his transport from Oregon okay they read it alowed in court and uh it said I wish to explain in full the
motives which prompted me to commit the crime um he insisted the murder was in no way
an act of Vengeance and he said one the motives were one fear of detection by the police that literally is ding ding
ding insane uh in beliefs that to kill and dissect the body I would be able to evade suspicion and arrest sane I had
warned PM Parker to keep the case secret and private but this this he was not reasonably able to do so that the great
publicity and search which followed caused me to use what I considered the greatest precaution in protecting myself
two Maran had a strong confidence in me for her own safety and I considered her own wish to return to her father
Saturday morning too deeply however my desire to secure the money in return to college were even greater I knew that if
I refus to take her back Saturday morning she might distrust me enough to give me some sign which would cause my
Discovery three for several years I had a peculiar complex I had an uncontrollable desire to commit a great
crime I believe that it borders on the Edge of Insanity and that it comes off as a weird relief from seriousness and
deep thought and found a means of expressing itself in the Parker case Okay literally all three of those sane
sane sane sane are giant booming green flags of Sanity right Europe this entire thing you had everything mapped out
Jerome Walsh which I'm like what were you thinking he entered the handwritten confession to try to like prove his
insanity but it just did the exact opposite each of these motives clearly indicates that he knew he was legally
and morally doing something wrong and that he'd only done it to not be detected to not be caught and also the
document reintroduces the previously abandoned story about wanting the money to return to school while only making a
very vague illusion to the you know profound religiosity that led him to commit the murder yeah the confession
was further undermined by at least one of the evaluating psychiatrists who told the press that in his discussions with
Hickman he had rejected the confession entirely so it's like none of it makes sense none of it like they're not
helping themselves they're looking more like they need to like be seen by a doctor
than anything else it's like what's going on like you're not making this at all a coherent trial not at all
and so Jerome Walsh in his client's defense called several witnesses to try to establish a long history of
instability Hickman's father Thomas Hickman explained that his ex-wife Eva had always been Melancholy and had a
difficult time when she was pregnant with Edward pregnancy is pretty hard yeah she
said had a difficult time when she was pregnant Nam one [ __ ] person probably even harder yeah um he told the jury
there was there was part of the time that she did not know any she always imagined that there was something badly
wrong with her okay and it's okay and so Walsh's try he also cited his history of
criminality and unusual behavior not being able to get over supposed losses and he was trying to establish that
Heckman had been raised in an unstable and overly religious household okay um because apparently he had a very
religious grandfather and he claimed that the influence was wild um but at best the testimony and depositions from
previous classmates just made him seem uh very intelligent and maybe a little quirky I was going to say like
intelligent to a fault among the least helpful Witnesses called by the defense was Dr skoo skoo skoo one of the
psychiatrists who evaluated Edward following his arrest um I'm sorry I keep referring to him as like Edward and
William his name is William Edward but he goes by he goes by both yeah usually I'll just call him Hickman uh reading
from a transcript of an interview skoo conducted with Hickman um sko's deposition was probably intended to
validate the you know that Hickman believed in this Providence God quote unquote but the back and forth between
Hickman and skoo was probably more confusing for the jury than it did to help the case at all okay because before
leaving the stand scoo concluded that Hickman's visions of Providence stemmed from a grandiose delusion that was
common in paranoid schizophrenics so now he's saying that he's a paranoid schizophrenic that's a big leap but
before that he had so confused the jury and made no sense and connected nothing and then was just like he's probably a
paranoid schizophrenic see you later guys and just like Let The Stand andat guys so the jury was like I don't even
know what you just said like that makes no sense to us yeah what it's wild so also of note was the extent of time that
the defense and the various psychiatrists spent on Hickman's sexuality and this is strange because according to
the coroner maran's body showed no evidence of sexual assault nor had anyone claimed that Hickman or anyone
else had sexually assaulted her at any time but during the trial a considerable and very uncomfortable amount of time
was devoted to Hickman's sexual interests his masturbatory habits his sexual experiences with women weird she
wasn't sexually assaulted well I was wondering why it even like at one point it was like it doesn't
appear he even likes girls I'm like it's why does that matter right now he didn't
assault her in that way so it's like why are we talking about that well it's just
like in the Heavenly Creatures episode it made me think of that yeah where it's just like it's not a sexually motivated
crime so yeah according to one of his Kansas City school friends Hickman quote had a number of sweethearts while in
school but he never ran around with girls and they're all like reporting this in like the New York Times and [ __ ]
and it's like that's also conf that's conflicting itself he had a number of sweethearts but he didn't go run around
with them like but then how what where did he go with them and we sit here and we're like to us this is wild and just
like what like very confusing but at this point in history mental illness particularly when it resulted in crimes
against children was often conflated with sexual deviant so many Americans including medical professionals at this
time would assume that there had to be a sexual component of Hickman's psychosis
here huh so they would like basically think they had to shoehorn this in cuz it's just to it has to go hand in hand
you don't kill a child unless there's a sexual component to it which I'm like sh what is is the component in the
room with us like what what are we talking about here especially when it's like no the corner sing there wasn't
that so like why are we shoehorning it in it's strange but again it's of the time very much so yeah now the hearing
came to a concl and that probably also sorry like cut myself off that probably also didn't help to stop the jury from
being so [ __ ] confused by all this yeah cuz they're like this doesn't really have a place here so why are we
even talking about it the defense like from what it looks like the prosecution has has kind of like given
out a very coherent pretty straightforward case this seems to be Revenge Hey look has a history of crimes
and violence y we have people here who say he actually fantasized and said he has a dream of cutting someone up and
throwing their body parts along the highway and by his own Omission he wanted to to uh do like a great crime
yeah like carry out a great crime and it's like and he clearly has some violent tendencies like looks like it
just he wanted he said himself he wanted the money so it all kind of adds up right here it is and then the defense is
like oh no we got it and then the defense makes like 40,000 different claims that all
contradict each other and are confusing as hell of like is he like does he have religious mania does he not is he a
paranoid schizophrenic is he not do you think that was the goal though of the defense it confus the but I think it
backfired greatly on them cuz they're it's just not a coherent case that they've tried to prove here but I could
see I could very much see that being the go that's all they had I think other than they didn't have anything like they
had to just confuse the jury because other than that it's pretty black and white like I don't know the motive still
seems fuzzy because like who the [ __ ] does that as like Revenge who the [ __ ]
does that for money like people do crazy [ __ ] for money and revenge I think I think part of it is like at this time in
history too no one could ad could understand people just do these things he just did this yeah and that he's a
[ __ ] up monster and that there isn't a true motive behind it maybe there was little things like he was pissed that he
got fired from the bank and maybe he did want to but he just wanted to ruin someone's life and he also he just
wanted to take someone's life yeah take someone's life to ruin someone's life it's like and you even were saying I
like in the beginning how much he liked talking about it and everything I think he wanted that notoriety whether it be
good or bad exactly in the hearing came to a conclusion in mid-February with both sides giving very impassioned
closing statements um Walsh told the jury the defense said when mental disease distorted the boy's thinking
processes he became incapable of attaining his life's goal when Hickman hung that little dead body down over the
bathtub drain and cut the throat with a kitchen knife when he dressed what remained of her in her school clothes
when he rused her face applied lipstick to her to that little dead mouth God he was not mingering he was completely
mad now this is a graphic description obviously yeah and so Walsh's graphic description of the actions was supposed
to convey to the jury that in order for him to have committed this kind of heinous heinous act he had to be
profoundly delusional no sane person would do this but the prosecution was like no like I'm not letting that go
without a challenge so um Keys said in his closing argument a lot of people say they can't understand how Hickman could
have committed such a crime if he was in his right mind he is a criminal he is a
bad man he is a man without a soul without a conscience without a heart he is not an All-American boy he's an
American Criminal Who with the aid of your verdict the state of California will Purge from its borders boom and I
say keys keys for the win that was a good one yeah there now there had been many criminals throughout the state's
history and many of them had committed heinous acts like Hickman's um and as far as he was concerned they weren't
insane either he said they're just evil not everyone has like some kind of defect that we can label with a
diagnosis some people just people don't have a conscience and they don't have a heart and they don't have a soul they're
just [ __ ] damaged goods and this is one of these people and we got to get them off the [ __ ] Street a little
after 2:20 p.m. on February 14th Valentine's day judge truko dismissed the jury for deliberations but before he
did he reminded them of their purpose he said you are to determine what the condition of the defendant's Mind was at
the precise time of the commission of the acts charged in the indictment its condition before or afterward is only to
be considered by you for the purpose of throwing light upon its state of the commission of SED acts the jury
deliberated for 43 minutes before returning with their verdict Hickman was sane when he kidnapped and
killed Maran Parker and for that he was sentenced to death good after hearing the decision the judge addressed the
prisoner for the kidnapping he sentenced Hickman to the term provided by the law
and for the first-degree murder of Maran Parker the judge sentenced him to death
by hanging at San Quenton prison with a tentative date of April 27th 1928 and then said and may God have mercy on your
soul may he not may he not showed no emotion when he was handed over to the sheriff's deputies and taken out of the
courtroom when the crowd of nearly 2,000 Spectators outside heard the outcome a giant cheer Rose through the air that's
amazing now Jerome Walsh immediately filed a motion for a new trial try to do this again yeah for a
and a motion for an arrest of judgment they were both quickly denied following the denial the defense filed an appeal
with the California Supreme Court on Hickman's behalf arguing that when he was forced to plead and to go to trial
under the form of procedure now prescribed by the penal code of this state and the procedure to be followed
after the plea he was deprived of his constitutional right to a trial by jury now according to Hickman's lawyers their
client had confessed to participating in the kidnapping but always said he was innocent when it came to the murder not
always not always by entering a plea of Not Guilty by reason of insanity he was forced to plead guilty to both crimes
and they said that violated his rights the justices considered the argument But ultimately rejected their Appeal on the
grounds that the state's Constitution only guarantees that the citizens of the state shall have an opportunity to be
Tried by a jury by entering a plea of Not Guilty by reason of insanity he knew the two charges would be considered
together and that the hearing could result in him being cons uh sentenced to death there you go they were also
unwilling the justices were unwilling to consider an argument calling into question the newly passed law allowing
for such a ple a plea during this period a separate trial was held where Hickman
and WBY his friend there were tried for the murder of Ivy Toms during the robbery of the drugstore in February
1926 I was waiting to hear if something happened from that the jury deliberated briefly and then found them both guilty
good but at that point Hickman had already been sentenced to die so it was kind of a moot point but like glad to
have had it on the books yeah and WBY at least got had to pay for what he did exactly by the fall of 1928 Walsh had
exhausted every single appeal available for his client and Hickman's execution was scheduled for October
19th uh at this point uh like most he uh had embraced the Roman Catholic faith in
jail suddenly out of nowhere oh god um and he sent a letter to chief of police for Los Angeles on October 13th where he
confessed to additional crimes including five robberies and the theft of several
automobiles in the city between 1926 in 1927 what a standup guy according to Hickman the additional confessions were
quote unquote the Christian thing to do and he wanted to get right with God before he went to The
Gallows you kidnapped a 12-year-old held her captive for multiple days killed her after giving
her the hope that she was going to be reunited with her family again dismembered her body sewed her eyes open
and then put makeup on her put makeup on her sorry I can't forget that and then drove her to her father and threw her
out your passenger door and you're talking about the Christian thing to do [ __ ] off into the sun oh and then drove
a little ways away and threw her arms and legs into various places [ __ ] off I got to get right with God I'm like isn't
that kind of like cramming for the final exam like 3 minutes before the test yeah
I'm like if there is a God I don't think he wants I don't know about that I don't
know about that on the morning of October 19th a little after 10:00 a.m. he was led from his cell at San Quinton
and taken to the Gallows that had been resembled in the yard before a crowd of nearly 200 people oh wow they were still
doing crowds yeah and what's funny is for about a year you know the F the Press had labeled him the fox and he had
labeled himself the fox this diabolical genius and um and they had been talking about how cunning he was and blah blah
blah but a lot of people in the crowd were like wow he doesn't look like the Fox right now the fox um the young man
standing before them at The Gallows was not the raving monster or this cunning Fox that they Al about but a white-faced
boy of 20 and they mean white faced like terrified all the blood has rushed out of his face and he is about to pass out
and oh he does pass out cuz he's a little [ __ ] there it is now according to one reporter he seemed very young as
the hush of death silenced the assembly gazing up at the human being who was about to
die he trembled as he was positioned over the trap door and basically collapsed when the hood was placed over
his head like literally fainted then at 1010 a.m. The Noose was placed around his neck and the lever was pulled the
trap door opened and he was supposed to be sent to his death but according to the Press Hickman's collapse just before
the door opened broke somewhat the force of the fall at the end of the Rope his neck apparently failed to break and
Hickman strangled to death for nearly 10 minutes they witnessed as his body twitched and convulsed before it was fin
finally pronounced dead at 10:25 a.m. the Poetic Justice because if you recall she was strangled
yep yep thank you for bringing that back because I mean tell me Karma's not a thing and in fact during this whole
thing multiple Spectators fainted cuz it in a guard threw water on them to bring
them back up oh my goodness sounds like it was like so cha now after all everything everything now he's dead he's
gone a whole year had gone by with them reporting this like Round the Clock Hickman died without ever honestly
explaining why he kidnapped murdered and mutilated Maran Parker I don't know that
there was a recess I agree with you genuine black and white reason I don't think he had one
reason he wanted to and there was some reasons that he felt Justified it yeah in his own I agree sick mind and not
sick in that way but like sick like Twisted I agree and that is the horrifying tale with at least an ending
that has some justice to it of the kidnapping murder and mutilation of Maran Parker so sad it
is wow but and what a it's like the trial got so wiy yeah and he tried so hard watching him fight for that
Insanity defense while [ __ ] it up for himself at Eddie T he wanted to get back
out there on the streets and do what he he wanted to be able to do again was good at armed robberies and murder
exactly he would have done something again there's no doubt in my mind probably something worse if you're
capable of that he was only 19 my God yeah this guy's only 19 he was definitely going to be doing something
again sad that that it it took that to catch him yeah wow yeah that's one of the more up cases we've ever covered
yeah well with that being said we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird bye bye
[Music] [Music] [Music] for

A massive interstate search was launched to find Marion’s killer and within a few days, police arrested nineteen-year-old William Edward Hickman, a former co-worker of Perry Parker. During his interrogation, Hickman confessed to kidnapping and murdering Marion, claiming that a god he referred to as “Providence” had instructed him to do it. That confession prompted Hickman’s attorneys to take advantage of the state’s new law accepting a legal defense of not guilty by reason of insanity; however, a jury disagreed, and Hickman was found guilty and executed at San Quentin Prison the following year.

Because of the shocking cruelty and brutality of the murder, the well documented and exciting search for the killer, and the sensational nature of the defense, the story of Marion Parker’s murder and the trial that followed dominated the media and occupied several pages of all the major papers across the state for months. For these reasons and more, it remains one of the most notorious murders in California history.

References Associated Press. 1928. "Hickman to have new judge." Fresno Bee, January 25: 1.

—. 1927. "Confession stuns mother." Los Angeles Times, December 23: 4.

Berger, Jackson. 1927. "Kidnapper tries to dash out brains in frenzy." Los Angeles Times, December 25: 1.

Los Angeles Record. 1927. "Hunt kidnappers of girl." Los Angeles Record, December 16: 1.

Los Angeles Times. 1927. "'Fox' ponders 'crazy' plea." Los Angeles Times, December 24: 1.

—. 1927. "Fugitive caught in breakneck race with Oregon officers." Los Angeles Times, December 23: 1.

—. 1927. "Hickman believed in Seattle." Los Angeles Times, December 22: 1.

—. 1927. "Hickman pronounced sane." Los Angeles Times, December 24: 1.

—. 1927. "Hickman's finger-prints found in apartment." Los Angeles Times, December 21: 1.

—. 1927. "'I liked her' declares youth while he sobs." Los Angeles Times, December 23: 1.

—. 1927. "Kidnapper grows sullen when 'pal' proves alibi." Los Angeles Times, December 24: 1.

—. 1928. "New crimes confessed by Hickman." Los Angeles Times, October 14: 3.

—. 1928. "New horror in Hickman case." Los Angeles Times, February 2: 1.

—. 1928. "Slayer makes self-analysis." Los Angeles Times, February 2: 2.

Neibaur, James. 2016. Butterfly in the Rain: The 1927 Abduction and Murder of Marion Parker. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.

New York Times. 1928. "Hickman sentenced to hang April 27." New York Times, February 15: 25.

—. 1928. "Hickman's father goes to his aid." New York Times, February 1: 13.

—. 1927. "Youth arrested in child slaying at Los Angeles." New York Times, December 19: 1.

Overton, Gerald. 1928. "Hickman goes to death on gibbet." Fresno Bee, October 19: 1.

Rasmussen, Cecilia. 2001. "Girl's grisly killing had city residents up in arms." Los Angeles Times, February 4.

San Francisco Examiner. 1927. "Kidnapped girl's body tossed omn lawn." San Francisco Examiner, December 18: 1.

State of California v William Edward Hickman. 1928. 204 Cal. 470 (Supreme Court of California, July 5).

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Brief Summary

William Hickman kidnapped and murdered Marian Parker, leading to a sensational trial and his eventual execution.

Key points

The Wild Chase Begins. The investigation into Marian Parker's kidnapping escalates as police pursue William Hickman.
Caught at Last. Hickman is finally apprehended after a week of intense media coverage and police pursuit.
The Confession. Hickman claims he only wanted a ransom and insists he didn't kill Marian.
A Mother's Despair. Hickman's mother reacts to the news of his arrest, fearing for his life.
The Insanity Defense. Hickman oscillates between claiming insanity and expressing pride in his actions.
The Insanity Defense Evolution. In 1927, California amended its penal code to allow a plea of Not Guilty by reason of insanity.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

The absolute worst is over.

A moment of relief in a dark narrative

1:06WatchJun 17, 2024

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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