Episode 763: The Murder of Olga Kupczyk (Part 2) | Forensic Files

Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. >> [music] >> This is Morbid. This is Morbid. This is
pretty Morbid. >> What's up, Big Red? Uh, I don't It's been busy. Yeah, it has been busy. It's been busy.
It's been good. Yeah. >> Um, everything outside of this house is pretty ratchet.
>> [sighs] >> But, uh, in here, pretty good. Yeah. [laughter] In here, it's all right. We do want to
rearrange our room a little bit. >> to rearrange the pod lab, yeah. >> And here is actually also pretty
ratchet. >> this room specifically, yeah, pretty rough. Yeah. We're just going to
move some stuff around, that's all. >> Yeah. You know, when like you worked at a really terrible place for a long time
and then like things remind you of working at that This is hypothetical. Things remind you of working there.
Yeah. >> And then you just want to change everything about the the time in your life where your room looked like that.
>> Yeah, cuz when it was like the worst time of your life working at that place where you were breaking down
every day and crying and screaming and and wanting to quit. Um, that energy hangs out in a place, I think.
>> And you can only salt the rug so much. >> You can only salt the rug. You can only
palo santo the room so many times. >> Oh. >> [laughter] >> Hypothetically, palo santo was keeping
my life together. It It sure was. Hypothetically. [laughter] Hypothetically. But now that we're so happy and vibey
The room's got to match the vibe. >> to be happy and vibey. It was cluttered with all the, uh, dankness.
>> souls for a little while, so. >> Yeah. Allegedly. >> we began with that I think really made a
difference was I got, um, Ash got me potato slippers. >> Slippers that look like a potato with a
face and two little feet. >> Mhm. And I've never been happier with a pair of slippers in my life.
>> You're welcome. And so I think this is the beginning of something beautiful in
here. I got croissant slippers, but I left them at home. I'm wearing We're wearing slippers in the office office,
it's a new thing. Office slippers. >> Office slippers, of course. I'm wearing big old cheetah ones that Drew got me
and I love them. >> Yep. But I also want to wear my croissant slippers. >> Yeah, Deb Deb Deb has some bear
slippers. >> Yep, I got her bears. We got to get Mikey some slippers. >> Some appropriate slippers.
>> have animal ones when I the place I was looking for a man's feet. >> Yeah, a man's feet.
>> You know. But, yeah, that's what we have to say [laughter] to you guys. You know, that that's our business for
today. Get your Get yourself some office slippers. And when your boss says, "What
the [ __ ] are you doing?" say, "Don't worry about it." >> Don't [ __ ] worry about it.
>> [ __ ] off." Just kidding, you'll get fired. Don't do that. [laughter] >> Who gives a [ __ ] Um, and also
uh, continue trying to do those little romanticizing your life things. >> Absolutely.
>> As the world gets crazier, get more romantic. I got a little romantic with my bedtime. I have been and it didn't do
a lot for me last night, but the like two nights ago this really helped me and I just need to get into doing it, I
think, more consistently. I got the hatch alarm clock. >> Oh, I love my hatch alarm. This is not
an ad. It's not an ad, but they were nice enough to send us them. >> They did. Um, and I was nice enough to
give mine to Debbie and Mikey. And then Drew, because I knew that Drew got me one for Christmas. I I accidentally saw
that on her bank statement. >> [laughter] >> Uh, anyway, I started doing the meditations the nighttime meditation.
>> have some cool ones. And I fell asleep, literally just meditating. And I want to
do it every night before bed. It's life-changing. >> I love my sunrise alarm. And again, not
an ad. We're just literally loving our hatch alarm. >> I love them so much it and the I really
love the bedtime meditations. Last night I [ __ ] myself over because I'm trying
to get more fiber in and I said, "You know what a fun way to do that is? Let's have some [ __ ] dark chocolate,
bitch." And I had some dark chocolate before bed and I forgot that that has caffeine in it.
>> Oh, it does. You're right. I was wide awake. Wide awake. It was It was rough.
I set my hatch alarm to, again, not an ad. I don't know why I keep saying like my hatch alarm.
>> [laughter] >> I set my alarm to like this Gatsby jazz, like slow cuz I've been telling you guys
the slow morning jazz, which I did share at the playlist a bunch times on my story, but I think people kept missing
it. I feel like at this point I should just put it on my grid. You know what you can do, actually, and if you don't
want it on your actual grid, um, do a highlight. >> Oh, there you go. So it's like
>> do that. So, if you guys are still looking for that and I'll keep adding to it, I'll put it in my highlights.
>> I'll show her how to do it. >> Yeah, the the the youth will show me how to do it.
>> I got you. Um, but yeah, so I there's a setting on it on the alarm that you can
wake up to like slow and it's literally called like Morning on West Egg. >> It's gorgeous.
>> And it is such a good way to wake. And you can also pick like the colors that
you wake up to. And it's seriously this isn't an ad. Like I swear to you >> like, "This is an undisclosed No, we
would have We actually like have to tell you if it's an ad. It's really not. Uh,
and just to end the conversation there, I I'm just obsessed with it. It's really
changed [ __ ] and it makes it a lot easier to wake up in the morning. >> Yeah, it's a it's little stuff like that
that I think we all need. Little things that make you happy. >> You know, if you can't get a hatch alarm
right now, romanticize your life in other ways. Just get a pretty glass to put your
drink in at dinner. Yes. In fact, one one last thing before we get into this stuff.
>> get new glasses? Um, if you go like if you you can find them anywhere. Um, they're like little like water carafes.
>> [gasps] >> If you look at like a antique-y looking one and it's like the glasses on top of
it, if you put it on your nightstand or even just like in your living room as like a
one, it makes you drink more water. >> It does. >> Because you'll want to finish that
carafe. >> It does because you don't want it sitting out. >> Just know that you'll be peeing in the
middle of the night. >> peeing. But also, you will feel like a fancy like noblewoman.
>> diva. >> [laughter] >> You really would >> between us. Noblewoman/diva. Um, I literally almost bought one off
the TikTok shop the other night, but then I was like, "Is this like too trendy?" Um, because it was cherry.
Like, uh, It was like a cherry, which was cute, but I I like what you're putting down over there. I like a
vintage vibe. >> at like an art deco like Gatsby era like 1920s looking carafe, you can get them pretty cheap.
Like you can look on Amazon, you can look wherever you want. But you can find a lot of different styles and you can
make and they look so fancy and so expensive, but they're not. And it's just one little thing to add a little
bit of whimsy and a little bit of luxury-looking [ __ ] >> Also, I'm here to say it. If you have a
guest bedroom, put it in your guest bedroom because it says, "I have my [ __ ] together."
>> It does. >> I love I love putting together a guest bedroom when somebody's coming over and
making it just like bougie as [ __ ] I love it. Not that I ever have people over, but
>> I was going to say I never have people over, but >> Very rarely, but when I do, I go for it.
>> Yeah. So, that's just little things, you Yeah, I need to >> said you liked like having little things
to to romanticize. >> romanticize, so that's why I'm trying to I'm trying to offer it whenever I can. I
have these cups that I got like vintage shopping or like, um, thrifting and they're so pretty. They're like beveled
glass and then they have like this on the rim it's like this thick, um, border that's like gold leaf almost and I want
to find more of them cuz I only have four. I'm like, "I need to find them." And that's I love thrifting, but that's
the only issue is that it's not mass-produced. So now >> [laughter] >> now you can find more. Like now you're
going to be looking. I know I am. I'm on the hunt. So, if you see anything like that, let me know. It's true. All right,
let's get into it. >> into it. >> So, we are still talking about the murder of Olga Kupchik. And if you
didn't listen to part one and you're here for part two, that's silly. I'm not judging you, but I'll fill you
in, okay? So, Olga married Frank after meeting him while his mom was in the hospital where Olga was a nurse. So, she
literally took care of his mom. And he was like, "Oh my god, you're gorgeous. You're taking care of my mom. Let's
date." They dated. >> Elizabeth, Frank's mom, is obsessed with him and essentially wants to be married
to him. So, she hates Olga and she secretly annuls their marriage after they get married.
>> And Frank's like acting like a poisswa. Yeah, Frank is the poisswa of the century, truly.
>> case. Olga gets pregnant in the middle of all this and unfortunately and incredibly sadly, she goes missing at
eight months pregnant. >> Jesus. Now, coincidentally, Elizabeth, while she's being looked at and kind of
questioned a little bit, she admits that she was getting blackmailed around this
same time and she points toward this man Luis Moya, but refuses to sign a formal
complaint and the way she identified him was super weird. >> Yeah. >> She identified him The police sent her
home with like a bunch of mugshots, which I have to think they don't do anymore. Yeah. When I first read that, I
was like, "What?" >> They're like, "Go home and look at these." They're like, "Here's a book of
of criminals. Look at them." But so she identified the mug him in the mugshot and then didn't identify him in a
lineup, but Frank had seen the mugshots and he was like, "Isn't that the guy literally right there?"
>> Yeah. And she was like, "Oh, gee whiz, it is." But then she wouldn't sign anything. So, the police were like,
"What's going on here?" >> They're kind of at a dead end and now they're frustrated by Elizabeth's
stonewalling. So, they went back to her friend Emma Short, the only other person
who seemed to have any insight into what the [ __ ] was going on here. >> Come on, Emma. Because remember, Emma
would go to the Tropical Cafe Yeah. who, um, was owned by the people that Elizabeth
said were blackmailing her. >> Yeah. So, at first, Emma refused to speak to the detectives and suggested
that Elizabeth had actually told her not to talk to the police about anything. >> Oh. But in her protest, Emma
inadvertently mentioned something that caught Detective Henderson's attention. The annulment.
>> Oh, I was waiting for that to be discovered. >> Yeah. Until that point, investigators
actually hadn't heard anything about an annulment and actually if Emma hadn't brought it up on accident, there was a
good chance it actually would have gone gone unnoticed for probably forever to be honest.
>> Probably. But now that it was out, there was no going back and Emma knew it. So
Emma explained to the detectives that she only went with Elizabeth and Ralph to see the lawyer and go to the
courthouse. So she was there for some of it. But she insisted that she played no role
in the scheme. She was simply there. I simply let it happen. >> Yeah, exactly. I just just didn't do
anything to stop it. >> anything to anyone. And didn't tell anybody. >> Yeah. So she knew all the details and in
early December she ended up telling the police everything she knew about Elizabeth and Ralph posing as Olga and
Frank. Soon the conversation shifted toward the Escobals who owned the Tropical Cafe.
And the people who Elizabeth claimed was blackmailing her. The topic seemed to make Emma
uncomfortable when it was brought up. Not because she was just simply afraid of the blackmailers, but it seemed like
she was afraid of Elizabeth actually, her friend. Probably. So now convinced that there was a lot more going on with
this whole thing than anybody was willing to tell him, Detective Henderson suggested that they continue their
conversation at the police station. And once they were there, Emma finally came out with the truth.
>> Yeah, Emma. So according to Emma, when the annulment failed to end Frank and Olga's relationship because Frank just
didn't do anything about it, Elizabeth took the next step in her plan and she actually approached Esperanza Escobal
for help. >> What the So the very woman she's saying is blackmailing her, she went to turn to
for help. It was Escobal who introduced Elizabeth to Luis Moya who she had identified and
another man, Gus Baldonado. The plan was that the two men would kidnap Ol- Olga from the apartment and take her to
Mexico where they would kill her. Mind you, she's 8 months pregnant. >> pregnant.
>> And dump her body. This is her daughter-in-law who is 8 months pregnant with her grandchild. Yeah. But she
doesn't she's not recognizing that that baby is her grandchild. She is like, oh,
Olga got pregnant by another man. >> what? She knows it is. >> Absolutely, she knows.
>> in me that believes that she doesn't know that's her grandchild. No, no, no. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just
saying like she's so gross that she's like making up all these rumors. She's such a That's wow. She's a [ __ ]
>> Wow. She's a [ __ ] >> She is. So in fact, Emma told the detectives that Elizabeth had actually
tried multiple times to find somebody to kill Olga before finally making the deal
with Luis and Gus. First, if you remember, we talked about it in part one, she tried to convince a woman
Barbara Reed to do it, throw acid in her face and throw her off a cliff. >> Jesus. But that fell apart when Barbara
went to Frank and was like, "Hey, I think your mom's losing her [ __ ] mind." >> Yeah.
Then after the annulment, she went back to Ralph Winterstein and offered him a very large sum of money, but he was
like, "Nah, I don't want to kill anyone." But I'm also like, you also could have gone to the police.
>> Yeah. So the list of people that Elizabeth approached also included one of Frank's former clients. Jesus. And
then just another woman named Becky who she recently met. And she told Elizabeth
that she could find somebody to help her, but she just never ended up coming through. I love that this woman is just
Becky. Yeah, just Becky with the murder tendencies. >> But she she didn't do it. Forget Becky
with the good hair. Don't ask Becky to do that. Like don't do that. Becky will not come through.
But also you have to think of the amount of people that she approached to murder
her daughter-in-law and none of them were like, "911, I'd like to tell you something."
>> trying to get somebody to kill her daughter-in-law who's pregnant. Like hello.
So according to author Deborah Holt Larkin, that's the real tragedy of the story. Olga didn't have to die. So many
people knew. >> Yeah, they should all be ashamed of themselves. So the story was obviously
compelling to the detective and all the pieces seemed to fit. He was like, "Oh [ __ ] we're really making headway here."
But in order to arrest Elizabeth, they needed something a little more concrete. For the time being, the district
attorney in Santa Barbara asked the detectives to continue pursuing the case and in the meantime, he was going to
call the district attorney in Ventura County, Roy Gustavson, and report the fake annulment and the
imprisonment and the impersonation, excuse me. If nothing else, that would be enough to hold Elizabeth until they
could track down Luis Moya and Gus Baldonado. Yeah. So the next day, Detective Henderson and his partner
started rounding up Esperanza Escobal, Luis Moya and Gus Baldonado. Under the threat of being charged as a
co-conspirator, Esperanza basically said, "Yeah, everything that Emma told you is true."
>> Jesus. She was like, "She approached me. She needed somebody to get rid of her
daughter-in-law. I showed her Luis and Gus, but that's where my part in all of this ended."
>> She's like, "So I'm completely innocent." Exactly. [laughter] Obviously. She's like, "I just
introduced her to two hit men. What was I to do?" >> I didn't do anything else. I have a
tropical cafe to run. >> there, not my business. Like, oh, okay. Like okay, did you think they were just
going for coffee? Like what the [ __ ] Everybody knows everything that's going on with everybody here. Agreed. She also
did inform them of one other detail. In exchange for Olga's murder, Elizabeth offered the two men $6,000.
>> Jesus. Which is a little more than sev- 67,000 today. Which like it's a lot of
money, but like to kill somebody? >> Yeah. Hello. >> Hello. When he got back to his desk, Henderson
found a note from a patrol officer in the traffic division asking that he return his call.
So the officer told Henderson he was holding a guy named Chico Rojo on a DUI and Rojo actually seemed to know
something about Gus Baldonado. >> There's so many people involved in this. It's a lot of people. According to Rojo,
he had loaned his car to Baldonado and Moya a few weeks earlier and when they returned it, the upholstery in the
backseat was ripped and burned. Oh my god. At the time, the car was at the impound lot because obviously the guy
was drinking and driving. But when they went to take a look, the backseat had definitely been destroyed. But it was
obvious from the specs of dried blood that somebody had clearly tried to get rid of evidence. Oh, no. It's crazy how
this is all just like lining up now. He gets like one piece of information and then it's slowly exactly. So while
investigators kept putting the pieces together and going over the growing body of evidence, Henderson and his partner
went to Frank Duncan's house and arrested his mother. >> Good. Yeah. The following day, Elizabeth
was charged with four felony counts including charges of fraud, forgery and impersonation.
Despite the evidence against her, she refused to cooperate which I'm sure is so hard to believe.
>> Cuz she's a [ __ ] And she just said that she was innocent and was being blackmailed.
>> Yeah. She didn't even say she was a [ __ ] No, she just knew. >> But you know what? We know. We knew it.
>> She's a [ __ ] >> Yeah. So Elizabeth Duncan might not have been talking, but her co-conspirators were a
lot more forthcoming. >> Of course. Having been identified by Emma Short and Esperanza Escobal as one
of the men hired by Elizabeth to get rid of Olga and also having now been linked
to the bloody vehicle, it didn't take long for Gus to confess and implicate everybody else.
>> Oh, yeah. According to Gus Baldonado, he and Luis met with Elizabeth who was with
Emma, by the way. Also So Emma knew about this. >> They're always trying to get themselves
further away from it and I'm like, "You're going to get caught." >> were literally there.
>> Yeah. They met at the Tropical Cafe on November 13th and they established that
she would pay them $3,000 when they killed Olga and another 3,000 within three to six months, like when she could
get the money. >> What a complete piece of [ __ ] Truly, all of them. >> Yeah. The plan was that they would
kidnap Olga from her apartment and take her to Tijuana where they would kill her
and dump the body. An 8-month pregnant woman. Yep. So on the night of November 17th, after Olga's friends left for the
night, Luis and Gus went to her apartment and Luis went up and knocked on the door, which is where the landlord
or the landlady heard the footsteps. >> When Olga came to the door, Luis told her Frank was in the car and he was
really drunk and they needed help getting him inside. So they preyed upon her. And also
no grown men need your help. Nope. No, no. Especially when you're 8 months pregnant.
>> Hell no. Nope. But obviously she's worried about her fiance. Excuse me, she's worried about her husband. So
she's like, "Oh [ __ ] like let me help you." >> Yeah. So in the car, Gus was sitting in
the backseat posing as Frank. But when Olga got down to the car and opened the door in the back, Luis hit her in the
back of the head with the butt of his gun and Gus pulled her into the backseat as Luis drove away.
So violent. >> It is. Along the way, they stopped the car because she was struggling so much
that Luis hit her again with the gun and then taped her hands, ankles and mouth.
She went through hell. >> So they planned to drive her to Mexico, but they had car trouble when they
reached Ventura County. So they stopped in Ojai and pulled the car off the road by Casitas Pass, a culvert that ran
under the road. They used the gun as a club several more times, which then caused it to jam. So
they couldn't use it anymore. So they then took turns strangling Olga until they no longer felt a pulse.
Wow. >> Assuming she was dead, they dug a shallow grave and they tossed her body
in there, covered her with dirt and then drove the car back to Santa Barbara. Holy [ __ ] Once there, that's where they
tore the upholstery and tried to destroy the blood evidence and then just went back, called Elizabeth and told her the
job was done. Wow. Yeah, just went about their lives. They just went about their lives and
Elizabeth just said, "Okay, good. Thanks for killing my my daughter-in-law." And
my grandchild. The wife of my son. Yep. Thanks for doing that. >> NBD. Yep. On December 21st, Gus
Baldonado actually led police to the culvert in Ojai where they had buried the body and Olga's remains were
disinterred and taken back to Santa Barbara. This is horrible. When the medical examiner performed the
autopsy, it was obviously noted that Olga was pregnant and that she'd suffered several blunt force traumas to
the head as well as having been manually strangled. But the cause of death was listed as
suffocation such as would be produced by being buried alive. Oh, [ __ ] >> She wasn't fully dead when she wasn't
dead. She was buried alive. She was buried alive. Holy [ __ ] Yeah. You can only hope that she was unconscious.
That's horrific. >> Because her pulse was so faint or they didn't think they felt a pulse anymore
when they buried her, but she was alive when she was buried. >> That is horrific.
>> Yeah, and pregnant. Please don't forget that. Holy [ __ ] So when Luis Moya was
confronted with the evidence, witness statements, Baldonado's confession, all of it, he too confessed.
And he confirmed that had he had also been hired by Elizabeth Duncan. And he also confirmed that while she had
given him uh the two of them a few hundred dollars as a upfront payment, which she got from pawning some jewelry,
she hadn't given them the money that she promised them when they were hired. >> She wasn't going to.
>> did all this for nothing. >> Yeah. I mean she's an [ __ ] through and through. Like she's not going to
she's not going to follow through. >> She's not going to come through with anything.
>> No. Now on December 21st, the District Attorney Roy Gustafson charged all three
with first-degree murder, kidnapping, and conspiracy to commit murder, among other things. And bail was set at a
hundred thousand dollars. According to Deborah Holt Larkin, Roy Gustafson had political ambitions, and
he had actually been looking for a case that would elevate his prominence. So he was eager to prosecute Elizabeth
and her co-conspirators in what would be a death penalty case. Damn. >> Yeah. When the updated charges were announced
in the press, he took full credit, saying, "I was tired of waiting for somebody to do something with this case,
so I ordered my men to question Baldonado." Unfortunately, in his enthusiasm to prosecute the killers, the
District Attorney had forgot to inform Olga's family that her body had been discovered. Oh my god.
>> It was only when reporters called the house that evening that Olga's family learned she was in fact dead
and had been murdered. >> Yeah. A reporter for the LA Times wrote, "Mrs. Kupchik answered the phone, insisting on
being told what the call was about. When she was told, she moaned and left the telephone." Oh.
That's the kind of [ __ ] that you're like, "Don't report on that." >> That's horrific.
>> Like I get like certain things need to be reported on, but like nobody deserves to know what her initial
>> Oh, that's awful. >> response was to finding that out. >> Yeah, that's really awful. Now from her
jail cell in Ventura County, Elizabeth Duncan continued to say she was innocent. She maintained that she was a
victim of blackmail, even though all of the evidence was pointing to the contrary. Gustafson told the reporter,
"As far as I'm concerned, the only reason Moya and Baldonado sought some money from Miss Duncan was because they
wanted the the pay they were promised for the job they did." So she's saying like I was being
blackmailed, and he's like, "No, you hired them to kill your daughter-in-law, and they were looking for payment."
Which is not They're all shitty. >> It's just horrible the way around. >> [snorts]
>> But you're not a victim of this. [clears throat] >> You're not a victim. So less than a week
later, Gustafson presented the case to the grand jury, calling on almost a dozen witnesses. So all of whom
testified that Olga had been repeatedly being harassed by Elizabeth Duncan consistently, and had actually gotten
multiple death threats. >> Yeah. Given the number of people who had heard Elizabeth make all of these
threats to or something similar, Gustafson really didn't have a lot of trouble as portraying Elizabeth Duncan
as a viciously overprotective mother with a deep hatred for Olga. I don't even if you know if you can calling her
an overprotective mother, even viciously overprotective, is even the correct thing to say. She's just a monster.
>> that child. She had a weird attachment to that child that is unnatural. >> the thing like he's saying
>> not a natural motherly protection. And there's nothing to protect him from. He
willingly got married. He willingly decided to have a child. >> Like what's the problem here?
>> Yeah. Now, speaking of Frank, he was noticeably absent from the grand jury hearing. After he learned what had
happened to Olga and that his mother was being you know brought on charges for it, he
just disappeared. Wow. Yeah. >> [snorts] >> According to Elizabeth's lawyer, S. Ward
Sullivan, Frank had moved out of the apartment that he'd rented with Olga and hadn't been seen since the body was
recovered. Most likely he moved out, but she wasn't living there. >> Yeah. He lives with mommy.
>> Exactly. Now the trial began in late February of 1959, and by that time Frank
had resurfaced >> Oh. and was standing by mommy, fiercely supportive of her claims of innocence.
In that time in or in the time that had passed since the indictment, Luis Moya and Gus Baldonado had actually withdrawn
their pleas of innocent and actually plead uh pleaded guilty to the charges. But their lawyers had signaled their
intent to refile pleas of not guilty by reason of insanity, [snorts] which is like no.
>> [laughter] >> You had every You got paid to do something horrific and you >> every chance to stop. This isn't a crime
of passion, a crime of insanity, none of the above. But that meant that when it came time for the trial to for the
murder of Olga, Elizabeth would stand alone in the courtroom because she was the only one maintaining innocence.
Now once the jury was selected and and the case really got started, it proved to be a lot more sensational and bizarre
than anyone had expected. In addition to the already bizarre facts of the case and the salacious and scandalous rumors
surrounding Elizabeth and Frank's weird [ __ ] relationship, the investigation also turned up some previously unknown
facts about Elizabeth >> Oh. that while not exactly relevant here, were still very fascinating for
reporters. >> hey, I want to know. Among other things, Elizabeth had been married eleven times.
Holy [ __ ] Homegirl was married eleven times. Okay. She also had dated one of Frank's
law school classmates while they were in school together. Okay. Ding ding ding ding ding. Salacious and scandalous
rumors? Nope. I think we're just seeing it for what it is. >> Yeah. >> You're dating one of his classmates? I'm
also like were you trying to make him jealous? >> What the [ __ ] >> she was trying to make Frank jealous in
a weird way. >> Ew. So Gustafson seemed to relish telling the jury, and I would have too.
>> Yeah. It wasn't relevant to the case, but it was interesting. >> Still you're like gross. So the District
Attorney also seemed entirely willing to share gossip and unverified rumors about
Elizabeth that I personally believe. Including the fact that she had paid for Frank's law school by conning several
men out of money and writing bad checks. >> Damn. Given that she'd stiffed everybody she'd
promised money to in the murder of Olga, I'm pretty sure that's true. Like she's
just known to not make good on her word. >> something to think about. Now as far as
the facts of the case and the people called to the witness stand, there was no shortage of drama there either.
In the early days of the trial, Gustafson called Barbara Reed to testify. She was the woman who Elizabeth
was like, "Hey, could you throw some acid in my daughter-in-law's face?" And she was like, "I'll think about it."
>> Yeah. So Barbara told the jury all about that, and then she brought up Elizabeth's daughter Patty, who had died
suddenly at age fifteen. [clears throat] >> And Elizabeth obviously cried at the
defendant's table, but her tears were quickly replaced with fiery anger as soon as Barbara claimed that Elizabeth
tried to hire her to commit murder. Oh. The testimony was continuously interrupted by Elizabeth having some
kind of outburst. She would yell at the prosecutor, she would cry about the loss
of her daughter, the love for her son, and also at random times she would just lol. And there's pictures of her like
>> a lol fit. >> with her head thrown back laughing. Yeah. >> in the courtroom. >> Yeah, she's something.
She wasn't the only one in the courtroom whose hysterics added to the drama. At various points throughout the trial,
Frank's audible weeping also disrupted the proceedings. At one point during Luis Moya's
testimony, where he gave a detailed account of the kidnapping and the murder, Frank flooded the courtroom in
tears, saying >> not over the death of his wife. Hold on. What? I cuz I'm like oh, I mean like
obviously I would also be that way. He said, "It is inconceivable that my mother could associate with a man like
that. What a cold-blooded man! Mommy would never like him." Wait a minute. [snorts] So my mother would never be
friends with a creep like that. is his concern. Uh-huh. It's mind-boggling. >> I I don't even know what to say about
that. >> Nor do I. >> Nor do I, brother. Holy [ __ ] So the testimony from the killers really didn't
leave a lot of doubt for the jury as to the role of Elizabeth in Olga's death. Luis Moya told the court, "At first she
said she would like to scare her out of the way. After we gained each other's confidence, though, she said she would
like me to get rid of her and would leave it up to us what to do." >> Jesus. According to Moya, Elizabeth said
that Olga was blackmailing Frank and trying to ruin his career, and that's why she wanted her out of the way, but
she had some ideas as to how they could go about it. Moya said, "She told me she
had acid, rope, and sleeping pills if we decided we could use them. The pills were to be for an overdose, the rope to
tie her, and the acid to disfigure her face and fingerprints." Now here's the thing. That's so [ __ ] up I can't even
conceive of it. And also, the whole acid in the face thing, she is so jealous of
Olga >> Absolutely. >> is such a clear psychological like manifestation of that. She wants to
disfigure her because your son is in love with her. One hundred thousand percent.
>> pisses you off. >> And that thought process is inconceivable. >> alien to me that I can't even get on the
same planet as it. Like I just cannot. >> Like why are you so jealous of your son's wife?
>> relationship. >> It's so [ __ ] >> And there's something deeply, deeply dark and [ __ ] up about it.
>> I we've told a couple of these mother and son cases, and they freak me out to
no end. >> freaks me the [ __ ] out. >> I hate it. Now in his testimony, Gus Baldonado was a lot less forthcoming. He
mostly just responded to questions with "I don't remember" and "I don't recall."
But when it came to Elizabeth's involvement, he was a lot less cagey. He said they both asked why they couldn't
just scare Olga to the point where she fled and didn't return, and Elizabeth told them, "No, I've tried that and it's
not possible." Wow. It was clear that what Elizabeth wanted was for her daughter-in-law to be killed, and like
you said, disfigured beyond recognition. >> Yeah, that's some Freudian [ __ ] right
there. >> It is. So the dramatics continued when Emma took the stand toward the end of
the trial to testify against her BFF, Elizabeth. >> Jesus. Her BFF, Jill. At one point during her testimony, as
she was describing how she went with Elizabeth to meet with the killers, Elizabeth jumped out of her chair and
shouted, "You're Shut the [ __ ] up. >> And her attorney was like literally trying to restrain [laughter] her.
>> Was like, "Shut the [ __ ] up." >> you're not doing any favors for yourself."
When she was admonished by the judge and warned about future outbursts, Elizabeth
replied, "This woman has my clothes on right now and she is a liar. I feel like tearing them right off of her." I love
that she's like, "She has my clothes on." >> She said, "Bitch stole my look." >> Like this [ __ ] is saying that you are a
literal like murderess and it's like you're like, "But you're wearing my goddamn sweater. Yeah. I want
>> [laughter] >> Like what what the [ __ ] I may not be able to wear my own clothes soon.
>> But I want it. So despite all the outbursts, all the antics, Elizabeth insisted on testifying on her own
behalf. >> Honestly, good. >> These [ __ ] always do. >> Dig that that grave for yourself. And
she took the stand on March 3rd, which is weird because today is March 3rd. >> don't do this on purpose. I don't know
why this happened. >> we were supposed to record this like a couple days ago, I think. Holy [ __ ]
>> Hello. What is that? Now, according to Elizabeth, she did once have a plan to
truss truss up her son Frank and take him out of Santa Barbara, quote, in the hope that he would come to his senses
and leave his wife. But she never went through with that, she said. No. I love that she was going to truss up her son.
>> Yeah. Hello. >> Truss him up. She even went as far as admitting that she tried to enlist
Barbara Reed in the plan, but she insisted that she never went through with it and certainly she never arranged
for the kidnapping and murder of Olga. >> No, I love that she's like, "Of course I
asked Barbara to throw acid in her face and toss her off a [ __ ] cliff, >> [laughter]
>> but I would never go so far as to organize a kidnapping and murder." She wasn't even admitting to that. She was
saying that the whole she was saying Barbara was lying about everything and that she had only gone to Barbara to
truss up Frank. Not nothing >> up Frank? >> Yeah, that's what she said. >> What the [ __ ]
>> [laughter] >> Like they were going to kidnap him and scare him into leaving Olga is what
she's saying. Now, according to Elizabeth, the entire plot had everything to do with keeping
her sunny at home and nothing to do with Olga personally. Olga was fine. She didn't care about it.
>> Yeah, she's like She just wanted her son to be with him. >> Yeah. Or with her, excuse me. She told
the court, "If I had to live alone, I wanted to die. I'm petrified if I have to be by myself at night." Babe.
You're going to be by yourself for a long time. >> long time. She claimed she never wanted Olga to be
murdered, but she didn't make any secrets about how she felt about her daughter-in-law. She said when she
learned that Olga had become pregnant before they were married, she confronted Olga and she yelled to the court, "I
told her I didn't want a daughter-in-law of her character and she called me a bad
name and she said she would marry my son whether I liked it or not." >> what I would have called you? A [ __ ] A
[ __ ] What? C U N T. The worst name. >> C U N T. That's what I would have called
you. >> Honestly, I hope she did call her that. I love that she was like in death being
like, "Listen, I didn't murder her, but I [ __ ] hated her." Yeah. She's like, "You're not doing yourself any favors
here, miss." >> it's going to help though cuz she's like, "Look, I'm being honest about how
I felt." >> Yep. So the testimony got heated the next day when Roy Gustafson cross-examined Elizabeth. At one point,
he said he was going over answers to questions that she'd been asked the previous day in relation to her son,
Frankie. Mhm. Frank leapt to his feet and shouted, "Just a minute, Mr. Gustafson. My name
is Frank, not Frankie." >> [laughter] >> "I'm a big boy, sir." >> mommy gets to call me Frankie."
"Mr." Ew, I hate it. "Poo to you." In response, Gustafson was like, "Hey, can you eject him from the courtroom?"
>> "Can you get that poo swa the [ __ ] out of this courtroom?" >> But the judge would not. Ugh. Going
forward though, whenever Gustafson referred to Frank as anything other than Frank, Elizabeth sharply corrected him
and said, "Frank is an attorney and an officer of the same court as you are, Mr. Gustafson. I think you should have
some respect for him." So as anyone could have predicted, Elizabeth proved to be a pretty
difficult witness under cross-examination. [laughter] She would refuse to answer questions and
she would only answer them after the judge was like, "Hey, you have to [ __ ] answer that." At one point when
the prosecutor was like, "There was no blackmail. You were just supposed to make payments for the murder that you
hired somebody for." She said, "I did not. I did not. I did not I did not do that."
Even though her testimony was riddled with outbursts and sarcastic remarks, frequent bouts of weeping, all of the
above, she did manage to stick to her story more or less. Her protests and her insistence that she
was the victim were consistent, but they were nothing compared to the mountain of
evidence and testimony linking her to the murder of Olga. So on March 17th, 1959, after a brief
deliberation, the jury returned to the courtroom to find Elizabeth Duncan guilty of the first-degree murder of
Olga Kupchik. The verdict kind of shocked everybody in the court, but Elizabeth seemed to primarily focus on,
you guessed it, her sunny boy. After the verdict was read, she told him, "Don't worry too much, Frank."
What? Lord. >> Later when she was asked about the verdict, she told the reporter, "I don't
know how that jury could do this to me. I didn't do it." You did. Okay. In the week that followed, the jury
heard arguments in the penalty phase, first to determine if Elizabeth was of sound mind when she committed the crime.
I bet that probably went on for a long time. Then to determine the actual penalty. In
his testimony, psychiatrist Dr. Louis Nash said of the evaluation, "I found Mrs. Duncan to be a maladjusted,
egocentric, and emotionally immature individual. >> Hell yeah, you did. >> The defendant particularly has been
unable to stand frustrations or maintain her emotional equilibrium and independence during major and minor
stresses. Yeah. But when asked whether he believed Elizabeth met the criteria for mental incompetency, he said, "I did
not find her to be insane." So he said she's sane, she's just a lot. >> Yeah, she's just very difficult.
>> Yeah. She's got There's something going on for sure, but she's sane. So according to Dr. Nash, Elizabeth's
personality was the same as most criminals and those who he came in frequent contact with in his
in his line of work. He said, "A psychopathic personality is a social misfit who causes problems for
themselves and the world they live in." And that's her. Right. And it's like you
can be a psychopath, but still be sane and I I know that's hard to understand, but yeah, that's the facts. Yeah. So now
that she was determined to have been sane, but really a lot when she contracted Louis and Gus to kill Olga,
the jury followed the prosecutor's wishes and they sentenced Elizabeth to death. Whoa. Yeah. When asked for a
reaction by a reporter, she was defiant. She said, "They are not going to make me
cry. Those jurors were prejudiced. I think they all lied when they said they would give me a fair trial. Liars, all
of them." >> After her trial, Louis and Gus were also determined to be sane at the time of the
murder and they too were sentenced to death. >> Yeah, you're all going down together.
Yeah. According to author Deborah Holt Larkin, which of course we'll link her book in the show notes, she wrote,
"Duncan's trial might never have stood up to today's legal standards." Which is pretty true. Yeah. It's highly likely
that Gustafson kind of tainted the jury a little bit with his repeated release of irrelevant facts about Elizabeth.
>> do look at the the legal part of that, like really pair it down to the skeleton there, it's
you can't do that. Yeah. [laughter] Like we can look at it now and be like, "Well, yeah." Yeah, we can talk about
it, but if we were presenting this case to a jury, we really couldn't say those things. They're not pertinent to the
case, unfortunately. The guilty verdict and the death sentence could have been more the result
of a character assassination than a strong case put forward by the prosecution. But you also have to
remember at the same time, it could have had a lot to do with the fact that Olga
was 8 months pregnant when she was killed. >> Yeah. And the heaping mountain of evidence against Elizabeth.
>> Absolutely. I mean, you have several people who are tell and are showing a pretty clear paper trail and a pretty
clear trail of evidence that lead back to this. >> Right. And when the jury >> friend is saying that she knew that that
she was there. >> A woman who is literally there when she hired these men is like, "I was right
there and she's my friend and I'm actually wearing her sweater right now." >> Yeah, she also was there for the
annulment thing. So she she's been there. She's been a pretty ride or die friend and at this point she's like,
"Yeah, I got to tell you cuz I'm under [ __ ] [clears throat] oath." Yeah, I can't perjure myself. That this is what
happened. So it's like This isn't out of nowhere. It's not like they're just like, "Yeah, you're a [ __ ] and you have
a weird unnatural attraction to your son." >> Yes. So we're going to pretend that
you're a murderer. Like there was evidence, but I do understand that they're saying like
the case could have been tighter, I think. >> definitely could have been tighter, but
I really do think a lot of it had to do with Olga having been 8 months pregnant.
If I was sitting on that jury, that would absolutely factor into my decision-making. How could it not? Yeah.
So after sentencing, Elizabeth's lawyer petitioned the court for a new trial. Obviously, that always happens. At
appeal, the the defense argued, among other things, that the jury had been prejudiced by all the news coverage and
that Elizabeth hadn't got a fair trial. In the spring of 1960, the California Court of Appeals heard the case and
after reviewing the evidence and hearing testimony, they concluded that the prosecution and the trial court had
followed procedure with regard to the jury and that the judge was well within his rights to deny the request to move
the trial. There you go. I mean, some of the things that they let out, they were
gossipy, they were rumors, whatever. Not a lot of them would lead me to believe that somebody would
do this to their daughter-in-law. You know what I mean? Yeah, it makes me think she's a [ __ ] and that she's an
unlikable and very untrustworthy person. >> But there's also all the evidence of her
guilt. Yeah. So with her appeal denied, Elizabeth's lawyer petitioned California's Governor
Pat Brown for clemency. We've talked about Pat Brown before. Mhm. At the time, he actually had expressed sympathy
for those on death row and he frequently sided with the anti-death penalty movement, particularly in the case of
Caryl Chessman, the so-called Red Light Bandit. >> about that. >> about. When the clemency case came up
for his review in this case, Pat Brown's assistant evaluated the case and, quote,
acknowledged there had been serious irregularities in the trial, but ultimately decided that the evidence was
so overwhelming that Elizabeth Duncan acted with malicious predatory intent. So, they denied the request.
>> Yeah, I mean, again It's everything we're saying. >> There was some extra little spice in
there that didn't need to be there that could have and now probably would [ __ ]
up the trial. >> A big time. But what the meat of the trial was there. >> Exactly. And it was again, a very
different time. >> Yeah. So, she exhausted all of her appeals at that point and Elizabeth
Duncan was sent to the gas chamber on the morning of August 8th, 1962 and so were Luis Moya and Gus Baldonado.
>> Woah. Elizabeth's last words before the gas was released were, "Where's Frank?"
That That makes sense. That makes sense. And then the cyanide pellets were dropped
and that was a wrap on Elizabeth. >> Damn. A few minutes later at 10:12, the prison doctor announced all three were
dead. And Elizabeth Duncan was actually the last woman executed in the state of California. Wow.
>> Isn't that crazy? >> What a distinction. Now, in state records, it seems that she was buried on
the grounds of San Quentin Prison, but there's actually no records of her grave being in the cemetery. Huh. The general
consensus is that Frank actually claimed her remains after the execution and that
had he had her buried in a private cemetery. >> I Not one part of me believes that.
>> No. Didn't like that absolutely happened. Now, what about Frankie, may ask? >> What about Frank? Frank remained
committed to his mother's innocence for the rest of his life. But the case, Elizabeth's notoriety, all
of that obviously negatively affected him in the years that followed cuz remember, he's a lawyer. Like that
ruined his career pretty much. Immediately after Elizabeth was arrested, he was let go from the legal
firm that he worked for. And in the years that followed, he was repeatedly sanctioned by the California
Bar for previous offenses until May of 2022 when disciplinary charges were filed
that resulted in his being found ineligible to practice law in California. Woah. The following year, he
was disbarred. But the reasons for the disciplinary actions and the disbarment are not public information. Wow.
>> Yeah. So, that is the case of [snorts] Olga Kupchik's murder. Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah.
So, it's just really that's it's just such a tragic case with Olga. Yeah. Like just being terrorized in the
final year or so of her life. >> Yep. And then ultimately murdered. >> being kidnapped and murdered. Like what
the [ __ ] It's really sad. >> Yeah. Yeah. Awful. So, let's do a fun fact. Yes. Bees actually have knees.
>> [laughter] >> You know how people say like the bee's knees and you're always like, "What?"
>> Fun fact. >> Yeah. This expression, the expression bee's the bee's knees comes from the
fact that they store large buildups of pollen in hairy baskets on their knees. Hairy baskets? Mhm. They have just hairy
baskets hanging from their knees? >> Don't you? That is a fun fact. >> I love it.
>> That's a fun fact that keeps on giving. >> Yeah, bees in fact have knees. That came from the factsite.com.
I love that. And with that, we definitely hope you keep listening. And we hope you
>> keep it weird. But not so weird that you don't think about the fact that bees have knees.
[music] I'll think about that forever. Think about it forever. Bye. Bye. >> [music]
[music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

In November 1958, Frank Duncan’s pregnant wife, Olga Kupczyk, disappeared without a trace from their Santa Barbara home after enduring months of abusive treatment from her mother-in-law. A short time later, Frank’s marriage was inexplicably annulled after his mother, posing as Olga, showed up at the local courthouse with a man she’d hired to pose as her son, Frank.

One month later, in mid-December, investigators in the small coastal town of Carpinteria, California, were directed to the location of Olga’s body in a shallow grave, after one of her killers confessed to kidnapping and murdering her the previous month. The arrest of Augustine Baldonado and his accomplice, Luis Moya, solved the mystery of what happened to Olga, but when it came to the motive for the murder, the truth was more shocking than anyone had expected.

References

Associated Press. 1959. "Mrs. Duncan shouts 'liar' at friend in court." Modesto Bee, March 1: 2.

Blake, Gene. 1958. "Body of missing bride unearthed." Los Angeles Times, December 22: 1.

—. 1959. "Find Mrs. Duncan guilty of murder." Los Angeles Times, March 17: 1.

—. 1959. "Mrs. Duncan held sane, faces death." Los Angeles Times, March 25: 1.

—. 1959. "Mrs. Duncan tried to hire her to kill, carhop says." Los Angeles Times, February 25: 2.

—. 1959. "Mrs. Duncan's son weeps when death story is told." Los Angeles Times, February 27: 2.

Hertel, Howard, and Paul Weeks. 1962. "Mrs. Duncan dies with 2 conspirators." Los Angeles Times, August 9: 1.

Holt, Bob. 1959. "Frank Duncan in court outburst as D.A. Gustafson questions mother." Ventura County Star, March 5: 1.

—. 1959. "Jury out 4 hours, 51 min. debating fateful verdict in murder-for-hire case." Ventura County Star, March 17: 1.

—. 1959. "Mrs. Duncan testifies in own defense; admits 'plot' to break up marriage." Ventura County Star, March 4: 1.

Larkin, Deborah Holt. 2022. A Lovely Girl: The Tragedy of Olga Duncan and the Trial of One of California's Most Notorious Killers. New York, NY: Simon and Schuster.

Los Angeles Times. 1958. "Body of missing wife pointed out." Los Angeles Times, December 22: 1.

Martinez, Arlene. 2013. "Love, scandal and murder: Ventura County case drew national attention." Ventura County Star, June 30: 2013.

Renner, Joan. 2013. "Mother-in-law knows murdwer: The tragic death of Olga Kupczyk." Los Angeles Magazine, June 17.

The People of California v. Elizabeth Ann Duncan. 1960. 6490 (California Appeals Court, March 11).

Ventura County Star. 1958. "Grand jury set for murder case." Ventura County Star, December 23: 1.

Welsh, Nick. 2022. Elizabeth Duncan: The Last Woman Executed in California. October 13. Accessed November 11, 2025. https://www.independent.com/2022/10/12/elizabeth-duncan-last-woman-executed-california-history/.

Williams, Brad. 1958. "Mother-in-law in jail on charge of fake annulment." Los Angeles Times, December 16: 1.

Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022) Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023) Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash Kelley Listener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra Lally Listener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Listener Tale Theme Music licensed from https://www.purple-planet.com Main Theme: Matti Paalanen — Trick or Treat — Provided by Jamendo Ad Music: Title: Artist: BlueJay Studio — Spooky Waltz — Provided by Jamendo

Brief Summary

Elizabeth Duncan orchestrates the murder of her daughter-in-law Olga Kupchik, leading to a shocking trial and execution.

Key points

The Murder of Olga Kupchik. Olga, a pregnant nurse, goes missing amidst family turmoil and blackmail.
Elizabeth's Dark Plan. Elizabeth seeks help from a woman she claims is blackmailing her to kill Olga.
Confessions and Arrests. As evidence mounts, Elizabeth is arrested for her role in Olga's murder.
The Horrific Plan. Olga was targeted for murder, with a chilling plan to kidnap and kill her.
Buried Alive. Olga was buried alive after being attacked, a horrifying twist in the case.
The Shocking Confession. Luis Moya confessed to being hired by Elizabeth to kill Olga, revealing dark motives.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

As the world gets crazier, get more romantic.

Encouragement to find joy in small things.

2:53WatchMar 5, 2026

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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