The Fifth Nail /// Part 2 /// 119 | Forensic Files

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around grab a chair a beer grab a beer and talk some true crime [Music] [Music] on the evening of May 16th 2005 in the
town of Cordy Lane Idaho the sheriff's department they find the lifeless bodies of three people inside of the groan
McKenzie household they find both of the adults as well as a teenage boy his name
is SL BL groy now we have two missing children here 9-year-old Dylan and 8-year-old Shasta it takes about 7 weeks
but Shasta is located in a Denny's restaurant with a strange man in the middle of the morning now this would be
July 2nd on Sunday July 3rd the man that was with Shasta was identified as Joseph
Duncan III yeah so who is Joseph Duncan Joseph Duncan is 42 years old he's a white uh male he's a registered sex
offender and he's from Fargo I believe yeah Fargo North Dakota now they are holding him because they want to charge
him with two counts of kidnapping uh charges that in in that state if you're convicted um they come with possible
sentences of life in prison or possibly the death penalty now it's time for detectives to question young Shasta and
they need a lot of information from from this little girl you know where had the
man taken her where was she for for 6 seven weeks what happened that night at the grony McKenzie home and of course
where is shasta's brother Dylan that's the first question you should be asking well and of course we have this
situation here Captain where Joseph Duncan he does not appear that he's willing to talk with the sheriff's
department so as we said they're going to have to learn this information from Shasta and some of what Shasta knew and
understood about the crimes Shasta actually learned from Duncan himself okay Duncan told her several times about
details of the murders of shasta's family and he was and and furthermore what he was doing to Dylan while they
were out on the Run let's say uh Duncan told Shasta that that he was turned on when he had spotted her and Dylan in the
front yard he was driving around uh we can assume probably looking for a victim or looking to victimize somebody he
states that he sees the two of them in the front yard he's turned on by the young girl she's wearing a bathing suit
at the time when when he sees them it is this is when he decides that he was going to take the little boy and take
the little girl okay now Duncan told her that he had watched the house and the family for a couple of days he's not
specific on how many days these were um but he says that he would he would creep
up to the windows at night when the lights were out and he see he had night vision goggles that he brought with him
on this trip and he would creep up to the windows when the lights are out when the family is sleeping and he was
looking in the window so he could get an accurate layout of the inside of the home because he was planning his attack
right and he was waiting for the right time to strike well on the night of the murders
um there's a couple of different reports here and I think maybe the confusion is
where was Dylan where was Shasta but but the way that The Story Goes is this is that at some point on the night of the
murders um shasta's mother Brenda she came into her room and asked her to come out into the living room Shasta was
asleep at this point and then she calls out to Dylan and Dylan then joins them in the living room as well now Shasta
says that when she got there um that this is the first time she sees this strange man she's never seen him before
and he's in the living room with her family members at this point um Mark McKenzie is already bound and he's on
the ground and then we also have Slade who is bound just with the hands uh but he's on the floor as well
then it's at this point that the strange man he ties up shasta's mother Brenda MH
the man she says is wearing dark clothing and he's wearing dark gloves black gloves so after Duncan has the two
adults and the one teenager bound he's going to then take the eight and nine-year-old bound them up and then
bring them out to a pickup truck that he has parked in their I'm I'm guessing their driveway yeah he has it he has it
parked somewhere on the property he puts them in the pickup truck and then he goes back inside now Shasta says that
the kids uh in the pickup truck they heard several screams coming from the house um After Duncan had returned but
eventually the night went silent eventually they hear hear nothing else coming from the inside right uh she does
say that at one point um that Dylan and Shasta that she saw her older brother Slade walk outside and
then he walked back inside again um when Shasta reported this to authorities she
said that her brother Slade was already extremely bloody at this point when he walked outside and then returned and in
her words uh he was probably brain dead at this point wow uh then they see Joseph Duncan come out of the house and
he drove the pickup truck over to the neighbor's property and then took the kids from the pickup truck and he placed
them into a red Jeep Cherokee and they drove off now later Joseph Duncan told both Dylan and Shasta that on the night
of the murders he had parked the Cherokee on Robert Hollingsworth property after dark and he walked over
to the uh McKenzie groy property Duncan had brought several items with him including the duct tape the zip ties he
also brought a flashlight and a rifle and a claw hammer once on the property he was actually confronted by the
family's dogs outside he had aimed the gun at both of them and they they were disturbed by this and they ran off uh
and then he discovered that the side door to the house was unlocked he let himself in and then made his way uh to
to look for the adult man in the house um apparently after he had the victims tied up is when he got the keys for that
pickup truck he got the keys for the pickup truck from Mark McKenzie himself after he had tied him up right so after
they're in the red Jeep Cherokee where do where does he take um where does he take the two kids well
apparently Joseph Duncan had shown Shasta on a map where he took the two children and so just days after Shasta
is found she's able to show authorities that her and her brother Dylan they were
held at two different C camping areas uh one of the two uh this is an area in north in the Northwest part of Montana
only about a 2-hour Drive East from the grony McKenzie home where the two children were taken from now law
enforcement searched this area this is a remote area near St reges Montana mhm and on July 10th 2005 they announced
that they had located and recovered the remains of Dylan grony there were many many rumors
regarding the boy's death and what Shasta and Dylan had experienced while being held captive all of the newspapers
news outlets and magazine TV shows were discussing these rumors um and well like
we said though before I mean Joseph Duncan is a registered sex offend now we know what the motive was and we
know that he had these two children in a remote location M so we know what his motive is yes we know he took them for
sexual purposes uh he he molested them and he did things to both of them for several weeks um like I said what what
we do know is that Dylan died from a gunshot um it was a gunshot to the Head uh like I said there were many rumors
regarding his death and what Shasta witnessed or was forced to participate in uh I don't really want to go through
all of the rumors uh I mean there's a lot of them and they're pretty pretty Grim um but but there are two that I
will go through because I find these to be likely scenarios um one rumor was that Dylan
was dismembered after his death and this this could be this this could be likely
um they they identified the remains uh and they they the method to do that was using DNA testing and it possible that
that wasn't their preferred method but that it was a necess you know necessity right right because the way the remains
were founded the only way to identify them and it could have been one of the ways that Duncan was trying to cover his
tracks you're exactly right the the other the other and I apologize um uh but this is not as bad as some of the
other rumors that were being reported at the time uh but but one rumor was that the attacks on the boy were very similar
to to one of Duncan's earlier assaults for you know one of the reasons why he was a registered sex offender uh it was
similar to one of the crimes that he had committed in his past okay so what's the
you know what's the loose background on uh this Joseph E Duncan okay so while he
is you know like we said they're they're wanting to press charges for kidnapping
on him now we found the body of Dylan one thing that I like that that the FBI and the sheriff's department did in this
investigation and did in this case even once they had apprehended Joseph Duncan they weren't quick to rush to anything
they they understood that you know what we' recovered all the victims we've recovered one of them thankfully alive
we have a Survivor and now we have the guy that we believe 100% committed this crime completely by himself
they had to they wanted to do their due diligence and rule out that Joseph Duncan had no connection to the family
um and so they they're sitting on everything they need I think that they did it did it the right way to take it
one step at a time now during this time they want to learn everything they can about Joseph Duncan III right and we
already know because of these acts that he's a flaming pile of horseshit so his past captain and his his previous crimes
uh Duncan was born in' 63 it sounds like his family moved around from time to time because of his father's career in
the military uh however most reports show that Joseph he was he was mostly raised in Tacoma
Washington uh there's some conflicting reports regarding the Family itself uh he was one of five children and one of
his brothers states that they had a very normal childhood there was no abuse in the in the house household growing up
where he has a sister that that says the complete opposite that there was that was a very abusive uh setting and that
there was all kinds of problems going on uh physical emotional mental it sounds sexual it sounds like um mostly physical
and emotional type abuse is what she describes uh but again she describes a completely different picture than what
was painted by the brother so who who knows what was going on um but but in in 1978 uh at this point Joseph would be at
the age of 15 MH um he molested a 9-year-old boy at gunpoint um and and I don't think he was ever caught for this
uh I I think he actually reported this incident to a psychiatrist later in life uh the following year Joseph stole a car
and he led police on a car chase and he was caught when he attempted to bust through a police barricade uh for this
crime he gets sent to a juvenile detention center it is here that he confided in therapist that he had raped
and molested some boys and he he estimated that he had sexually assaulted 13 boys that were younger than him by
the time he was 16 in 1980 they're going to charge him with these no he says this
to a therapist uh when he's serving time in in the Detention Center well one of the things that we've talked about and
and I'll post it on Instagram to me it's one of the creepiest photos of of this whole case is you know uh Joseph V
Duncan I mean he looks little and then right in front of him you know black and white sex offender so he gets charged as
a sex offender at some point right right and this is this takes place from an incident in 1980 this is after having
been released from juvie so now Joseph decides to break into a home uh this is a home in his neighborhood uh he says
that there's an old man there that he knew he had several guns and ammunition he wanted to break into the home and
steal the guns so he does so um and it's similar to it's a little bit similar to
The Murders that he would go on to commit later in life where he would he would go up and he would peak in the
window of this home and he waited for his his moment to strike uh he said that he basically hid in the shadows and
broke into the home where he believed nobody could see him he steals the gun he steals some ammo um and after this he
decides that you know he's kind of riding out this high from from breaking into this home he decides he wants to
have some kind of sex right so he he sees a 14-year-old boy uh who is walking to school
Alone um he using the gun he abducts the boy and he takes him into the woods and
he assaults him after the assault uh Joseph Duncan beat the boy with sticks that he found in the area and he burned
him with a cigarette um the the kid would live yes yes he he ends up letting the boy go um
he he tells after he's done doing whatever he did uh he tells him to run away and not to tell anybody you know he
threatens him don't tell anybody well not too long after dun yeah [ __ ] I'm not going to tell anybody well yeah
Joseph Duncan goes home and not too long after the attack he's actually picked up
by police for that crime he's charged and convicted for that crime good good for the the victim yes and and they
sentenced Joseph Duncan to 20 years in prison well uh he was released 14 years later um with several stipulations one
that he live in a halfway house uh and he was on Parole and he was to have no contact with
miners uh he would continue to be in and out of jail and halfway houses for some
time I don't want to bog down the show and go through every little charge violation or jail stint well it wouldn't
be the first time you bogged down the show but Joseph Duncan basically was in prison from 1980 until 1994 I also do
want to point out that he was not labeled he was labeled as a sex offender but not labeled as a a file because uh
he was young at the time as well and and both he and the victim uh were less than
5 years apart in age so there that's the the cause of that um and then because of
a parole violation he is in prison back in 1997 until the year 2000 after his release in 2000 he moved to Fargo North
Dakota where he enrolled in college uh per his per his parole requirements he had registered as a sex offender when
arriving in North Dakota they have Duncan listed as a level three sex offender now what does that mean okay
I'm really confused because you said he didn't have to be because the victim was
the same age no he's a sex offender but but according to prison psychiatrist he's not listed as a pedophile he's a
sex offender but not a pedophile because they were within 5 years of ofe I should
have been paying it a little bit better attention wake up I'm sorry I'm I'm here
I'm here okay so so they have they have him listed as a level three sex offender
what does that mean Joseph Duncan became a level three sex offender because his crime included the following a
non-parental kidnapping of a minor and a sexual act committed with the threat of
bodily harm or death so level three or tier three as more properly called by the sex offender registry is the highest
meaning the worst level of sex offender there is okay okay so if if prison time is required for the offense the
following must be adhered to upon release if you are a tier one offender you are required to register as a sex
offender for 15 years if you are two t if you're a tier 2 offender M you register for 25 years and a tier three
sex offender is required to register as a sex sex offender for life okay right here I wanted to go through some of the
recidivism rates here that the rate that someone previously convicted of a crime
later after a released often offends again okay we you know here's the thing the repeat offender right right and I
wanted what's the percentage well I wanted to go through these rates and I I got to looking into it and then I
decided that that we won't do that and I'll tell you why well thanks for bringing it up no but I'll tell you why
okay there have been some very good studies conducted over the years but as we review them we will just we will just
have a bunch of garage army people going huh what are you talking about right uh
and and so look like they're currently doing huh what's Nick doing what's Nick talking about look I I looked at I
looked at the reports for a while and I know that the listeners are smarter than
me thank God I had to read the studies three times and then I decided it's too boring so anyway the tier three sex
offenders have the highest rate of recidivism all right so your point is that if you're tier three you're more
likely to repeat the crime MH and we should keep in mind as well that sex crimes are largely unreported so even if
we had the numbers in front of us I would strongly argue that the rates are unfair and much lower than what in
reality they actually are yeah very true and the thing here Captain is that what
what me and you in the True Crime garage Army care about is the concern for the return to criminal behavior and we all
know that criminal Behavior doesn't always lead to arrest or convictions but it certainly leads to victims doesn't it
and that's that's who all of us in the garage here are here to stand up for so the thing here is after about 4 years of
Duncan being out we have a complaint against Joseph Duncan well okay so but he moves and he
registers for college yep and he's also registered a sex offender yep but he's in college now correct and he's studying
do we know what he's studying he was studying computers um and he and he was actually considered a a pretty good
student uh having made the dean list a couple of times um you know as much as as much as you and I dislike Joseph
Duncan he he can be an intelligent person uh as far as as school goes and as far as books go um clearly not
intelligent enough to try to correct himself and correct his ways after he's been given obviously several chances to
do so so after after being out for about four years uh we get this complaint against him and the complaint goes like
this that on July 3rd 2004 there were two boys playing in a middle school playground uh this is in Detroit Lakes
Community in Minnesota the boys ages are 6 and 8 years old uh they see a small red car with a mail dri driver pull into
the parking lot the man gets out and apparently he has some kind of video camera with him he walks to a secluded
area of the playground and he calls the two boys over uh once they're there the man pulled down the pants of one of the
boys and he fondled him and then he tried to do the same with the other boy but thankfully was unsuccessful um he he
there's a brief struggle with this boy and then both of the boys run off mhm uh and of course at this point the man gets
in his car this is Duncan and he drives off well the boys are able to provide a very good description of the man as well
as the car that they saw that day right so the Detroit Lakes Police using this information and using the description
they start checking the sex offenders database and they find Joseph Duncan who matched not only the the description the
physical description given by the boys but uh he had a small red car as well his car match the description as well
right right so the kids were shown a photo lineup well it this is an example of the system working you're thank you
Captain thank you the they're shown a photo lineup and they both success sucessfully pick Duncan from this lineup
M and because they have all of his information in the database they're able to go and pick up Joseph Duncan for this
crime speak to him for it arrest him for it and eventually charge him with this crime now we will also point out a
situation where maybe the system did not work we'll talk about that right after this quick beer
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[Music] [Music] that all right welcome back to True Crime gidge all right Captain we had talked
about the system working let's talk about where we start to run into problems here the first problem presents
itself you know we said that he is going to be arrested in charge for this crime
the problem here Captain we have a situation where we have a report the report of this crime
was misfiled or lost somewhere for whatever reason Duncan's not going to face any justice here regarding this
charge until about 9 months later so we haven't we have an extreme delay in the process right and to further that you
know this crime ha happened in Minnesota he's a registered sex offender in North
Dakota but I don't think that that is any excuse here that the court didn't know who they were dealing with right
this should be easy in my opinion you know we have a level three sex offender who according to these charges may have
reoffended and tried to do so against not one but two children I believe uh that Joseph Duncan had a
either a public defender here or maybe he had a license you know a private attorney at this point because he did
have Captain he had he actually had two well-to-do friends um one was a physician and the other I believe he had
been in real estate but regardless both had made a good living during their careers and why are they friends with
this scumbag well let's get into that a little bit one of the these friends okay
ends up giving Joseph Duncan $115,000 and he says that this is to Aid in his defense or if there was to be a
bail well it would probably help for both MH but so his attorney when he's facing these charges his attorney asks
that the bail be reduced that you know typically in a situation like this we would see a a
bail that would be set at like 25,00 000 or more for a crime of this nature with
a possible reoffender so the attorney for Joseph Duncan tells the judge that Duncan this
is in April right April of 2005 so Duncan is due to graduate from college in May the attorney asks that the bail
be set at a reasonable rate so that Duncan can get out of jail and he can attend he can attend to his Affairs and
complete his graduation process that's not how the World works right but the judge ends up agreeing to this and he
sets the bail at $155,000 right how much money did they put in his pocket that's what I want to know I
don't know about that but remember we said that Joseph dunin got that $155,000 that money from his friend so
picture this we have a level three sex offender the bail is reduced to 15 grand and the defendant says no problem pulls
out his checkbook and he writes a personal check for $155,000 hands it to the bayith and boom
he's released into the public right just walking around Whistling Dixie by the way I heard that that check bounced you
know for that can't can't they C can we gotcha yeah can we at least hold someone
until the check clears for star yeah that should be a that should that should easily be a rule yeah so so back to what
the Captain was saying and I'm sure everybody else is is is scratching their heads I'm sorry but I can just hey no
problem no problem let me just write you a check for that all right free I go it
it almost and I hate to to to joke around of over something so serious but it almost it's as stupid to me as that
part and Dumb and Dumber where he opens up the Briefcase full of IUS yeah you know and he picks up one he's like
$9,000 he's like yeah you might want to hold on to that one yeah so anyway cash like the yeah like
the captain said and like I'm sure all of you out there scratching your heads by now going how does this Joseph Duncan
guy have any friends at all especially one that would give him a loan or whatever you want to call it for 15
grand well I'm going to go into this but I want to be clear that that a lot of this here is my is just my opinion uh
but I believe there's plenty of evidence of this to back some of this up I know so Joseph Duncan at different times in
his life he held many different sexualities you know at some points in his life he was straight he was gay he
was a crossdresser uh I actually very ugly crossdresser yeah not not very good at
it I actually don't believe that that he went from feeling one way to another at
different points in his life I believe as noted in Duncan's prison files from the time that he was a kid that he was
diagnosed as a sexual psychopath uh and I I do believe he was actually a pedophile um and and this
this is a person that is a pedophile who would abduct and kill to fulfill his urges I think that Joseph Duncan could
could have sex with anything really and that that he was that he was a cons he was a constant manipulator of situations
that he found himself in okay I think think if he saw a situation where he could benefit from being homosexual well
then he was happy to play the part I think that that's where these friends may have come into play heck one of
these guys just listen to this okay one of the guys said to the courts uhhuh that he thought that Duncan could be
rehabilitated with some counseling and that the courts should release Joseph Duncan to him to his care where Joseph
Duncan could come and live with him his wife and his two children might I add these children were just of the age
that Duncan would have liked this guy knew that Joseph Duncan was a sex offender he knew of his sex
offender status he knew of his criminal past and the crimes he was currently being charged with I tell you what if if
I'm married to someone and they say to me hey honey let's let this level three sex offender live with us and our kids
it will all work out well I'm going to say no but I'm also going going to say you know what is a good idea a vacation
now go take one by yourself because me and the kids are throwing your ass out so pack your son tan lotion mhm so
Joseph Duncan he he is out now he's written this this check for $15,000 rubber check mhm and he's out and he's
he's he knows he's going to have to face these charges eventually and I believe that that is what triggered him I
believe that that is the trigger that that brought on what he called the demons to take him over now we have to
point out here when the investigators were looking into his past when they were looking into Joseph Duncan's
background they learned he was going to school for computer and he figured and they figured out for computer well for I
I can't remember I'm I'm struggling here to remember the exact thing that he was
going but it was for thank thank you Captain I just see I can see for computer I could to see the kid going
going home you know he's visiting his parents for a uh for like fa you know it's Christmas time hey uh the
grandparents ask him hey what are you go hey Nick where are you going to school what are you going to college for just
say computer computer I'm going to school for computer I can't it all right well the Major's a little more specific
than that but it involves it involves him going into that line of work than for making my day so they they are
convinced that he's going to have some type of online presence and they track down some some uh resumés that he sent
into to different people looking for jobs right um they they ba they actually lock down his apartment you
know they contact Fargo North Dakota and they contact the landlord and they they
lock down his apartment so they can go through everything and it's at this point that they
discover this fifth nail blog that we talked about in the first episode well he's the creator of of this blog of this
website well and like you stated before he talked about offenses that he made prior to this mhm and so these would be
the offenses you know these this rubber check that he wrote These are the offenses that he's talking about on the
blog well and the thing here is Captain like I said he's going to have to face this these charges eventually he in his
mind he knows he's going back to prison and probably maybe even for good at this
point I don't know what the rules are on reoffending um but he's going to go away
for a long time he faced 20 years the first time and I think that this was the trigger that that that was the demons
that he talked about on his blog taking him over and because he was going back to prison he snapped and he thought you
know what I'm going to go out rather than go on the go to prison I'm going out I'm going on the run and I'm going
to kill and abduct until they catch me or kill me well and some of the True Crime Army might be they might go
against me on this thought but hear me out so with Killers or even sexual offenders they they a lot of the times
talk about the urge you know I get this urge to kill and we'll see it time and time again with different serial killers
where they try to fight the urges mhm and some serial killers they don't even try to fight it and some sexual Enders
they don't even try to fight the AR but there are some that do so it's it's possibly that's kind of what he's
talking about too is with these demons where it's like you know maybe at certain points of his existence he's
tried to fight these urges right which he's calling demons and uh now that he knows that you know there's really no
future for him why fight the demons mhm why not just let them take over yeah and
you know not only were they looking into his background Captain but you know the
his arrest when they found him with with Shasta and after they found the body of
Dylan and then they they connected him to this triple homicide they're starting to see this
guy is not just a level three sex offender no this guy is I mean one of the worst of the worst right he's a
seral killer he's a serial killer and he's capable of of monstrous things well that's going to lead the FBI to launch a
n a nationwide review of Unsolved missing children cases right um and they they wanted to see if he during the
times he was out you know what who went missing where did they go missing from they started looking at cases that were
everywhere as close to like 70 to 100 miles from where he was all the way to about 7 or 800 miles away from where he
was living at the time uh they belied that because they had seen in more than one situation by this point that he was
capable of going to other states to commit these crimes so he was actually implicated as a possible possible
suspect in several crimes that occurred between 1994 and 1997 this was when he was on Parole the first time before he
violated his parole and went back to prison now so so a three-year Gap yes and and who knows what happened then
right and at this time he would have been in the Seattle Tacoma Washington area he was he was living in that area
when he was free from prison during this threeyear stint um although he was cleared as a suspect in some of these
cases authorities in California and Washington they believed that they had enough evidence and believe that Duncan
had committed unsolved murders in their jurisdictions now the first one that I want to talk about is a Boy by the name
of Anthony Martinez okay okay so on April 4th 1997 10-year-old Anthony Martinez he was
playing with friends in his in the front yard of his home in bont California a man approached the group of kids asking
them if they would help him find his missing cat the boys did not want to help this man they they refused to help
him so the man instead grabs Martinez and he puts a knife to his neck and he he threw him into a white four-door
sedan into the back of his car well on April 19th this is just 15 days later 1997 after searching for the boy for two
weeks his body was found nuded and partially decomposed in a California desert Ravine and covered in rocks uh
the investigator said that he had been sexually assaulted Ed and bound with duct tape now this is one reason why
they're looking at him furthermore they're looking at Joseph Duncan because a composite sketch was made of the
suspect at the time of the crime now I think this was the one with the army hat Maybe army hat and the mustache well
when this crime was committed they had no leads and and eventually this case goes cold until after Joseph Duncan's
arrest in 2005 well the thing here is once they announced that he has an online presence
and that he had this blog well of course web Luthers and everybody else that has
a computer that's interested in True Crime they're looking at they're following the story on CNN and Fox News
and now they're following it on their computers as well well several people noticed that there's quite a bit of
similarity between Joseph Duncan and the composite sketch in the Martinez case case so the FBI and now again with the
help of the national Center for missing and exploited children they they get involved in this case and they start
working with the Riverside County authorities who are still active in the investigation now that blog was since
you know they took down the blog um yeah well what you want to go into that just
real quickly we'll go back to Martinez yeah yeah just cuz cuz at some point they take it down
yes it's I've read several newspaper articles and magazine articles online articles everyone I've come across says
that the website has been taken down however I don't know if this remember I said earlier the guy went to school for
computer well that's about my understanding of everything as well so he went to school for computer I found I
found this website and I don't know if it's an archive or if it's somebody retelling the I don't fully understand
what it is but you can find it out there you really if I found it that means you
don't have to look extremely hard from from what I was reading it made it seem like they was taken down at some point
then they put it back up mhm then when they took it down again somebody had saved all the information and so then
they relaunched it because it was really about them not wanting uh him to have any control over
it or access to it or or something like that because I think that they do get some
computer time in prison so yeah and the thing here is Captain he has when I say he Joseph Duncan has a similar active
blog that has and it's it's the same thing where it's like almost journal entries right um and a lot of it's
talking about his time in prison and and things he gets in trouble for in prison
and he he talks smack about the wardens and about the judicial system and things
like that um the way I understand it this is an active blog and it has a similar name to the fifth nail it's
something like the the fifth nail Chronicles or the fifth Chronicles something like that it has a very
similar name again you can easily find it if you just look up his name uh I will throw out there maybe don't waste
your time because it's a lot of very boring dry reading uh I read through some of it like I said boring stuff and
plus you know this guy is a hor monster I don't want to spend any time with him yeah and if the colonel says it's boring
you know it's boring so the the way that I understand the that the current blog works is that he is not actually allowed
to write any of it himself um which which should be I applaud that I don't think I'm all for freedom of speech but
I don't think that people serving time life in prison on death row that they should be just typing away their own
newsletter well especially especially people that have crimes against children exactly so the thing here is from my
understanding is there somebody on the outside that operates this for him um that he you know he he corresponds with
this person and from time to time this person posts things on that blog on his behalf well you got these weirdo rich
friends you know could be could be I I think it might be a woman I'm not I'm not certain anyway sorry we got kind of
sidetracked there but you you were to bring that up because people are probably questioning that so we have
this unsolved case of Anthony Martinez the 10-year-old that disappeared for two weeks and then later was found dead and
we have people coming forward stating that there's similarities between Duncan and the composite drawing also remember
the little boy was bound with duct duct tap yeah so authorities were able to after looking into this they're able to
match Duncan's fingerprints to a partial thumb print that they found on the duct
tape on Martinez's body also it was learned that Joseph Duncan had stolen his girlfriend at the time he had stolen
his girlfriend's car and that car was a white Chrysler Town Car which matched the description of the abductor car as
well well there you go yeah during the sentencing he would he eventually go to trial for this for the the death of
Ernesto Martin I'm sorry for the death of Anthony Martinez but during the sentencing phase of the trial arnesto
Martinez this is the boy's father he said 14 years ago to this day my son's life was brutally taken by the hands of
a monster I am angry that instead of attending my son's college graduation I am spending a day at the sentencing for
Tony's murder as a father I would love nothing more than to carry out this e execution with my own two hands
I know there will be no punishment greater than the special place God has in hell for Joseph Duncan to endure the
pain and suffering we've had to experience right the Riverside County superior court judge this is David
Downing said I can say in 31 years involved in the criminal justice system I have never met a more evil person than
Joseph Duncan and he immediately had the prisoner removed uh from the courtroom then six deputies they lead Duncan out
of the courtroom and during this time he glances off into the audience with a kind of a dumb smirk on his face as he's
as he's facing the audience there yeah I'll post uh some of these pictures of him at trial and him like being
transferred from prison to to to trials um and you'll see him he has a bunch of different looks but uh you know there's
definitely something something wrong with him I mean you can just see it in his eyes it's there there's
something like just something missing about him MH now there's some other crimes that they're concerned about as
well uh the federal oh hold hold on if I wasn't clear I'll post those on our Instagram at True Crime garage the
federal prosecutors also revealed that Joseph Duncan confessed to the murders of Sammy Joe White 11 years old and her
half sister Carmen kubas uh this is she's 9 years old the two girls vanished in July of
1996 after leaving the crest motel in Seattle they lived with their mother at this motel and the family was very poor
uh the kids would often make a little bit of money panhandling uh the exact details of
their disappearance are not known they're they're completely unknown but their remains were not found until
February of 1998 so less than two years later uh now we said Joseph Duncan confessed to this crime to these two
murders but it sounds like the authorities are in need of much more than than whatever Joseph Duncan told
them uh because he has not been charged with their murders yet okay answer me this go ahead okay so think about the
Brian Ferguson case from last week right you have a story that doesn't make any logical damn sense right right has no
information correctly but we hand you all the information during the interrogation now you got this piece of
horeshit Behind Bars and he's already been TR we already know that he uh you know killed four people and then we
charged him with this the killing of the boy Anthony Martinez yeah exactly and now he's confessing to crimes and law
enforcement is going to say we well we need more than that well here's the thing I I mean you see what I'm saying
that's that's my confusion no and I agree with I agree with you but I I think we're talking about the playing
field it's not an even Level Playing Field right we have all kinds of different players in this system and
just like any line of work some of them are very good at their jobs some of them
are very bad at their jobs some of them care and have basic human decency and some people don't care and have no human
decency and I think what we're looking at here is I think people involved in and and I know what you're saying we we
want to see Justice for as many of these victims of Joseph Duncan as possible right and how could we not get Justice
for these two little girls when somebody like Ryan Ferguson ends up in in prison
no record for nothing yeah right for and he's totally innocent I see what you're
saying I think what we're seeing though is I I think in this situation we have we have prosecutors these are federal
prosecutors um I think they they're doing a very good job I think they know the law and they're working within the
conf the confines of that law I think Joseph Duncan as I said is a manipulator I also think he's a liar and I think it
would be you probably can't believe anything this guy says the thing here is Captain I wouldn't be shocked if he in a
round about way somewhat confessed you know what I mean that he didn't fully come out right my understanding of it is
I don't have the confession or what he said to them but my understanding is that they he did not give them enough he
did not give them enough details he was he he didn't get certain things about the crime right um he basically said
where he had abducted the girls from he didn't recall their names or at least said in that interview that he didn't
remember their names M um and I think a lot of evidence was lost because they weren't found until almost two years
later so just just really a bad a bad situation now regarding Duncan and in the crimes you know he was convicted by
three different courts he has been convicted in Idaho for the kidnapping and the murders uh regarding the grony
family and Mark McKenzie in California he was convicted by a superior court for the kidnapping and murder of Anthony
Martinez he has also been prosecuted at the federal level um so so some of these
he actually plad guilty to um but he wasn't able to cut a deal like what we see in most cases he he cut a deal to
get a life sentence but the way that this thing was set up was that they knew he was going to get tried at the federal
level right and it was expected he would receive the death penalty for those crimes so the way that they worked this
thing was he pled guilty at the state level and was given life for some of the murders and for some of the kidnapping
charges and all of that stuff but they delayed the sentencing process for those crimes and those charges because if he
were not to get the death penalty at the federal level then he would receive the
death penalty in Idaho now Joseph Duncan III is currently being held in a Maximum
Security Federal prison this is the United States penitentiary in terot Indiana now this is where we keep
persons convicted of federal crimes this is where we keep the worst of the worst
this is where Timothy McVey was held and executed um now I don't believe that we
have a set execution date for Joseph Duncan if someone finds that please post that at true Crim garage.com in the blog
because I looked and looked and looked and could not find it right but on record there they haven't I don't think
they've executed any Bas since 2003 correct and so it's been a while and we need to get that going again so now like
with somebody with Timothy McVey you need to get executions going again we need to get that that thing fired up
again yeah the with Timothy McVey he was executed extremely fast right so on on average a federal death row inmate is
usually executed after about 15 years MCV was only about 4 Joseph Duncan committed these terrible crimes in 2005
he wasn't convicted at the federal level until the second half of 2008 so if we get back on schedule and the math holds
up we we would be looking at an execution date of 20123 or early 2024 well I I hope you enjoy those uh death
penalty argument look arguments you and I have talked about this a little bit before um on several different shows my
views and opinions on the death penalty are are complex they're not very black and white um so I don't care to get
involved in it here because it would take it would take us 10 shows for me to explain my opinion on it but but what I
mean is sounds interesting save save yourself the time typing the emails because I'm not won't read them well
because what I'm saying is with somebody as bad as Joseph Duncan he's not a person that I care to discuss whether
there should be a death penalty or not okay this guy's horrible he video aped some of the crimes that he committed
against Dylan and sha we know he did this it's definitive it was him he's a horrible person the world is will never
be a better place because he's here so let's not get into that debate one of my concerns though is these rich friends I
mean these you know especially like the one that was married with kids and saying oh release them to me you know
you're either having sexual re relationships with uh Joseph E Duncan or you're part of this pedoph failure ring
and you're right and that's what I was trying to kind of foreshadow and kind of throw that idea out there without
outwardly saying it but yeah I think that they were involved in some kind of relationship together probably a
homosexual relationship so whether you're for the death penalty or against it fact of the matter is this horrible
monster is behind bars and he will not have any more victims and that's a that's a beautiful thing another thing
because uh you know it's funny how you know we've been doing the show for so long but so many of
these cases are connected right and we can reference so many cases just like the Adam Walsh I mean we talked about uh
these crimes being put on America's Most Wanted which would be with uh John Walsh
and the sex offender like uh being registered sex offender basically started because of Adam Walsh so it's
it's interesting to see how they're all connected and how we're growing as a society on some level to try to prevent
these yeah and that's the thing you know you you when something like this happens
you know you can blame you can sit around and try to blame people if you want or you can say how do we grow and
how do we learn from this and is there any possible way that something this terrible this depressing that something
good could come of it and one thing I want to you know I want to give Oprah Winfrey some props here yeah it seems
strange but well this is but some people will some people will remember this in in late 20 5 this crime you know Joseph
Duncan being out being a registered sex offender that was he was being sought he
was a fugitive from the law he was facing these charges in Minnesota right so if they could have found him before
he committed these murders we would have a whole we would have a whole family of
people that still with us right and so this crime inspired her to do her and her show did a basically what I would
call a child molester Roundup you know this feature Fe different child sex offenders that were wanted by the FBI it
would feature those cases on her show and the show offered a substantial reward for information leading to the
arrest of these individuals that were featured on the show there was at least two yeah there was at least two of these
guys that were on the FBI's most wanted list for sex offenders that were apprehended because of the Oprah show um
so that that's one good thing that came of it um the other two is that they increased the um the child victim
recovery funds were increased in Idaho so at the time they would only issue they would a lot I be believe it was
$22,000 or $2500 to a child victim for counseling and therapy uh because of all the trauma
they've experienced the thing here is with shasta's situation she's very young she
experienced something extremely horrific they knew immediately that that that dollar amount would not even provide the
the smallest of bit amount of counseling or treatment for her to try to correct and get things back on path for her so
that she could live a happy productive life so they increased that amount and I believe they increased it to
$25,000 so that was definitely certainly a step in the right direction and you know captain for me and you we do a
different crime every week and I thank everybody for tuning in and listening to the different crimes that we present
every week but sometimes you and I have to go out of our way and look for the good for the positive in these cases as
we get bogged down week after week with with some depressing heavy stuff uh but what's this week's recommended reading
Walking prey how America's youth are vulnerable to sex slavery by Holly Austin Smith this is an important book
with one-of-a-kind insight into this subject matter because it was written by a victim Not only was she a victim but
more importantly she's a fighter her book walking prey is truly an educational experience for both parents
and law enforcement Holly has been on national TV newspapers and radio shows telling her story she has also consulted
for the national Center for missing and exploited children and the Amber Alert program so pick up Holly's book about a
crime that is not well understood by most of us most of us that is walking prey how America's youth are vulnerable
to sex slavery by Holly Austin Smith and you can do that by going to our website
truecrime garage.com and we have our recommended page and you can pick up anything from that page on our Amazon
app yeah if you click through the banner and whatever you buy they give us a kickback and they don't charge you
anything it helps keeps the lights on helps keep some beer in the fridge and I think Nick had a couple too many beers
this episode yeah well I'll do what I want I've I've done a lot of talking so my tongue is not working with the rest
of the mouth at this point well you did a fine job on the research this week my friend like always and uh really
interesting stuff and like you said you can find on the on the computer you can find this blog if you kind of want to
dive more into you know the the fifth nail blog and next week I'm very excited because we are going to feature a case
that has been heavily requested as of recent so we want you to know we are listening and we will be back here with
you in the garage my friends next week yeah thank you friends for listening and until then be good be kind and don't
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The Fifth Nail /// Part 2 /// 119

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Idaho – 2005, A family goes about their normal everyday activities. They didn’t know they were in the midst of a monster. For several nights he lurked outside their home watching them. He was waiting for the perfect time to strike. When he did the crime scene was so horrific law enforcement said it was a crime for which they had never seen. This week we feature a story that investigators called one of the worst in American history.

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Brief Summary

Joseph Duncan III murdered the Groene family and kidnapped two children, leading to a tragic investigation and revelations about his past crimes.

Key points

The Tragic Case of the Groany Family. In 2005, three members of the Groany family were found dead, leading to a chilling investigation.
Shasta's Harrowing Experience. After weeks of captivity, Shasta was found in a Denny's with her abductor, Joseph Duncan.
Dylan's Remains Discovered. Authorities announced the recovery of Dylan's remains, raising many grim rumors about his fate.
Recidivism Rates of Sex Offenders. Tier three offenders have the highest rates of reoffending, raising serious concerns.
Duncan's Release on Bail. Joseph Duncan, a level three sex offender, is released on bail after writing a check.
Investigating Duncan's Past Crimes. Authorities link Duncan to unsolved murders during his time on parole, raising alarms.

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