The Disappearance of Maura Murray /// Part 2 /// 153 | Forensic Files

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talking with true crime author James rener and Maggie the beautiful Maggie and the Beautiful art uh the host of
Oxygen's The Disappearance of Mara Murray all right Captain that's enough of your propaganda and enough of the
business everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime vote for the captain
[Music] one of the things I love about this documentary The Disappearance of maram
Murray is the host Maggie and are asking the tough questions they're asking tough
questions to law enforcement to the family asking tough questions to podcasters to author James rener and one
of the things is James from the beginning you've always been kind of suspicious of the family but we don't
really know how we would act if this happened to us or one of our loved ones no we see that but like I've got two
kids and if if my daughter went missing um I W hell of a book oh God morbid joke yeah right I mean not a
book I'd ever want to write but like I would 100% I would open the door come in here you know look through our family
look through our internet search history you know everything you know that you need to in order to find this this
person this kid right yeah I I mean we say we don't know how we would act but there would be nothing I wouldn't
do right well the other question too is um do you know if her bank was open that
night or that day on that Monday oh well I all I know is she went up to the ATM and she was able to she had like 200
close to $300 in her account and she took out2 80 and people get all like up and a tizzy about that detail they're
like oh she didn't withdraw all of her money right and you shouldn't say she withdraw Drew all of her money because
that's untrue well yeah she kept uh $16 in there you're right it wasn't well I still question whether or not Fred gave
her the $4,000 I mean he claims he didn't but that's the big question you know what happened to that $4,000
because you know she disappears and how much money does it take to disappear and
set up a new life well if she only had 28 8 that's one thing but maybe she had 280 plus the 4,000 plus her student loan
money um that Monday or the the week before that it might have even been that day that Monday she disappeared might
have been the day that they released the hold on student loan funds um so she could have taken an extra
$45,000 on top so now instead of 280 we're dealing with maybe she disappeared with more like $10,000 now but where's
she getting this money from the student loan money um well you get once you get student loans you can apply for a
certain amount of money um that's over and above your uh you know room and board and I did that in school I lived
off of student loans for I think you know two years typical author I'm still paying
back um so you know I think it's possible that that's what she did uh is wait until she could withdraw those
funds and they they keep a hold on it until like a couple weeks into the semester but do we have a record of her
withdrawing those funds not I mean maybe the police do I I've never seen any sort
of record it's just speculation um we do know that she had student loans so um just thinking out loud why would the why
would the father give his daughter for Grand cuz may like we all believe that holding back something right maybe it is
oh by the way I did give her this money and it wasn't for her to run away and she's in trouble for credit card fraud
is it to pay back somebody that she was somebody else somebody else yeah that she had she stolen another credit card
um and had she run up more than just $70 worth of pizza you know was she paying that person off um but that's just
speculation you know was it was it money to see uh uh her to get away from college and set up someplace else I
don't know I don't know it's just weird so I the other question I have is this is not an Andy Kaufman story you know
there's no I think Andy Kaufman's still alive too but that's another story that's a whole another episode
yeah that's your next book right um but there's no evidence of her I mean she didn't try to fake her
death right unless unless oh right right it wasn't like a yeah I see what you're saying um
well think about this if she hadn't have gotten into the accident on Route 112 and I I do think that that was an
accident like I don't think it was some people well did she stage it for dis no I don't think so um so let's say she
hadn't got into that accident and she just left her car in a parking lot somewhere up there maybe even with a a
note or something um nobody out side of the Murray family would have ever heard about this story um and you know they
she maybe you know could have left a note and said you know I took off I'm sorry you know goodbye but I think the
accident changed everything you know let's say she's going up there to start a new life or to disappear or do
something she gets in that accident she doesn't want the police to show up right
you know cuz that's now she's in a lot of trouble what is she doing they're catching her halfway through whatever
her plan was so you know let me get in this car that's being driven by this acquaintance and um we're going to take
off and maybe the police will leave the car there and we can come back for it nope oh the police took it oh crap now
we got to leave the car now it looks like now it looks like a possible crime um so we got to be Hush Hush about
everything from from now on you know no no letters to you know friends or family
explaining what I was doing up here yeah it's just her and one maybe two other people that have to be quiet right and
that's kind of your theory on her friends maybe that they're I don't know for sure I just I just the only thing I
feel 100% on is that there was a tandem driver and that tandem driver was somebody that she knew you know friend
or family U I tend to you know maybe lean 60 40 60% towards it being friend or friends well I like that you actually
said that though because one of my I'm constantly defending you uh but what I and I was telling you
this earlier the the one of my favorite things about uh being able to you know call you a true crime
friend is that you put out this amazing book that I bet once a week somebody tells me oh this is the best book that
I've maybe have ever read uh which I think is a great compliment that's awesome um because I hate when somebody
would say it's the best True Crime book I'm like oh come on um but but I like that you said that the only only thing
that you're super solid on or 100% on is that there was a tandem driver yeah and
I think what where a lot of people uh kind of the funny thing is a lot of people
say that you're tunnel vision mhm but then I think that they become Tunnel Vision on you they they do they do and I
think to some extent there's this um need on the internet and social media to to choose sides and in society in
general just to choose a side and I and you get you delve into the mor Murray case you end up on you know specific
Facebook pages and Reddit Pages where for whatever reason they've decided to turn me into you know kind of the bad
guy the bad journalist and and then that's one of the first things they read and they want to be a part of that
community so they have to like not like James either but if you if you spend some time with me you know I know there
were some people from Reddit that came up to Crime con last year and they hung out and got a book and you know uh had a
drink or you know some snacks at the bar or whatever you know within five minutes
of you know hanging out right you know and it almost makes me cringe but you know they'll lean forward and they'll
say you know what you're not you're not an you're not as much of an [ __ ] as I thought you were a little bit of an
[ __ ] still a littleit yeah we all are but um not as much as Nick but see that's the weird thing that I've never
understood with and it's not with everybody in the True Crime Community but with the case well there's other
cases out there that are similar to this where there where there are people that
they they take a side like you said they believe in a theory and if they dis if they disagree with your theory for some
reason they've decided they don't like you as a person I don't know how that leap is made um you know we've had it
happen on our show where people comment and they're like Nick you said that it probably went down like this are you
some kind of idiot you know and it's like well well I normally get that directed towards me and yes I am some
kind of an idiot um but I like that you said that you know that's the only thing
that you feel 100% because I think a lot a lot of times when you bring up the pregnancy or the the belief that you
think that she's alive I've never heard you say I 100% believe that she's alive no and no of course not and um you know
with the tandem driver thing I you know look it what happened after that is is a
mystery did she go on to another life a lot of people think I'm sold on this idea that she's in
Canada and you know hanging out and chilling and eating Crepes and right and you know having babies and that would be
nice I want to believe that uh but there's also the possibility that whoever this tandem driver was killed
her right you know I'm very open to that possibility but if your theory that she left on purpose to
start a new life if that theory is wrong let's just say in this hypothetical World sure I'm telling you 100% that
that theory is wrong what's the next theory that you lean towards is it just that the tandem driver yeah it's that
the T driver was responsible for her death you know did she hit her head harder than we than we know and did she
did she pass out and they freaked out and she became comos or something silly like that or did you know was she
traveling up there with a boyfriend right not the boyfriend but a boyfriend a boyfriend
and that person was the one that after that accident you know killed her or you know uh you so so yes I'm I'm very much
open to that you know when I started looking into the case the first thing I after you know Wikipedia and a couple
other things I'm going to your blog and so then to get so much of my information
about the case from your blog sure and then to call you an idiot or a [ __ ] just makes zero sense oh I know you know
and and these people that set up websites or uh or other podcasts not Tim and lances but other podcasts on this
mystery because there are a couple more right and uh um you know they that's what they do they're like I hate this
James runer he's such an a-hole he's such a jerk here here are 10 documents that James runer posted on his uh his
website that might help us figure out what happened to Mora Murray um yeah you're welcome thank you yeah I think
yeah I think people should just give you a little more credit for that I'm a you
know I don't know I'm obsessed I was obsessed with this case there are other cases that that I get very personally
involved in um but I've got a life I think you know I've got I've got you're here with us on a Sunday there's no way
you have a life uh this isn't my life is and and people seem to think this is you
know and I I don't know it's frustrating you know social media and you know I don't know how you guys are but you at
to at a point you just have to watch walk away and not like cuz 80% of the comments will be positive but you fixate
on those 20% one thing I liked when you set up your blog was you it wasn't just you forming an opinion and telling your
version of what you think went down with Mara but you set up a place for people to check out new information and for
people to come back to you with information and say hey James I found this you should consider putting it on
your blog yeah it was this Grand idea I had to open the internet and turn it into essentially The Writer's room of a
newspaper you know when I worked at a Scene Magazine up in Cleveland we'd had this writer room and I'd write these
true crime stories and we'd Gather in the writer room and I'd pitch out ideas I'm like what about this guy as a
suspect and you know the other writers would come back well have you looked at this and this and it was a new way to
gather information but also um to find new avenues of investigation and to use crowdsource ing to try to solve these
cases now the way I picture it going down was you know if you've ever seen Mickey Mouse and the The Sorcerer's
Apprentice you know where he's learning from this Grand Wizard and you know he you know he goes up and tries to use
some of the magic well I had this Grand idea to turn it into a a crowd sourcing platform and everybody would be sociable
and and fight for the greater good and and help each other out but it got out of control and people were not nice to
each other and people were not nice to me and people when names were considered as
suspects people would go out and try to shame them instead of realizing that just because their name is mentioned as
a possible suspect and they are a possible suspect doesn't mean they're guilty and they shouldn't be held um as
we still have a court of law for that reason you know let's not consider somebody guilty until they've had their
day in court but that went out the window and I realized that this Grand experiment that I had
um it just won't work in the way our culture and Society set up and that was very upsetting and very sad and now the
the blog you know I've turned off the comments because people are just people are just mean to each other right now um
and I I think that doesn't get us any closer to the truth it doesn't and and and I want to hope that it's a phase and
that we'll look back at this in 20 years and we're like oh my God that was the deep dark days of the you know people
being mean to each other in Twitter and Facebook but I don't see an end to it no
and you know I I was involved in a community online community years ago regarding a specific case and people
would log on there and give their opinions on different pieces of evidence or theories that they had and it it got
very messy very quickly it it it it spun out of control into this thing where posters are now accusing one of one
another of being the actual murderer oh yeah uh and it just it got so weird and strange in there yeah uh yeah the I
think the only way to fix it is to get rid of anonymity right and but nobody's going to be for that because they they
you know they want to be anonymous be because they you know they they have their daily routine of being an
accountant somewhere and they have to follow everybody's rules but then they can log on as Poop Shoot 69 you know at
that's a good friend of mine best buds and tell you everything you're doing wrong and and you know that you're that
maybe the police should look into you and you know stupid stuff like that like well and I think people also forget on
these a lot of these shows that you're they edit you so it's just like that you you were saying before like you talked
to Maggie for a really long time and then what they put on the show is an edited version of that and they might
eventually go back to that interview yes but one of the things that you talked about in the show was the eyewitness
accounts and I wondered that when you when you guys have gone to these places and looked for how many people don't
recognize the picture that you're showing them is it a bunch of Mor Murray yeah oh
99.9% okay so it's it's always just a a very small how many people would you say
have said oh I know her two or three okay so very small and people that that believe they saw her are adamant like
this uh and I think I hope eventually in the doc series we'll get to see her but
there's this employee that worked at the record store up in um Montreal I think and she was 100% she's like no doubt
about it that was her so you know people say they are these unsubstantiated sightings um but they're very good
unsubstantiated sightings it might not be her now there's a lesser known story Within the
mara Murray case and I want you to tell it for us because I pulled this straight
from your book and it was one of the more you know there was a lot of interesting points in there but this one
stood out for me a little bit it's the and forgive me if I'm setting this up wrong but when
you were looking into the case there was a hit on her social security number or or a hit on something involving like a a
shopping uh card yeah there are two I mean you're hitting on two different stories okay so real quick um and then
I'll get because I think I know the one you're going for is a little more dramatic but there was a the um when I
ran her social security number I got a hit that led me to sacko Maine and that turned out to be one of the Searchers
that was working with Mo with Fred Murray after Moore disappeared and and he said hey can I put a flag on Mo's
Social Security number so that linked his address in sacko main to moris so so when I ran it it popped up so that was
kind of easily explained although it's still a little weird right um the shopping cart is interesting and I think
I get the feeling the documentary series might go there because they they showed
it last night okay um inside the the car they're like oh hey look a little shopping cart now um one of the people
that go to the the website these these you know when I was crowdsourcing it somebody read it and they they were able
to get the exact number off the back of that shopping card find the grocery store and run it through their loyalty
program system and it popped up uh More's information and also an email address MH but that email address wasn't
linked to Mora it was linked to a guy named Richard thousand who lives in Cleveland Ohio and works as a nurse so I
reach out to Richard and I say hey man your hey dude yeah your email pops up on Mor Murray's shopping card and mor
Murray's this woman who disappeared in in in UMass ammer and he tells me the story about how he visited the the
university and met this young woman who he thinks was Mora and they had lunch together and then she she must have
stolen his card his loyalty card to get like cheap gas or something and I'm like
well Mo no is known for stealing cards you know that makes a little sense so I put that information up online and
people right away poked holes in it and he got back to me and he said hey look I
made that story up um the the the real truth is that yes I was at UMass ammer just for a couple days for a
conference and I when I heard about the Mora Murray case I became a little obsessed with it and found her shopping
cart information and put my email in it so I would get some more information from about that card um so man talk
about red flags right you know here's this wait wait so so he just repeat that yeah it's weird so
so he puts in his information well this is the last story he told me you know he
lied about the first story he says so I don't know what the truth is and what's not but the story he settled on was that
he was studying to be a nurse at the same time as Mora but not going to school at UMass but visited UMass for a
couple days for what was the reason a conference or something was happening down there and uh he said they might
have crossed paths but he's not sure so he came back to Cleveland and then when morg goes missing he's like oh
I remember you Mass I was there at the same time and he starts getting obsessed with the case finds her shopping cart
info puts in his email address in order to open up the other information because
it says in order to access you have to put an email address right so he gets his to link with her shopping
cart and so it's weird right like everything about it and this guy's and the fact that he lied before exactly
makes it even weirder and he's living up in um Cleveland uh for and I've visited the
house I haven't caught him there but we've talked on the phone um lives by himself and I I talk to the neighbors
nobody has seen a young woman up there but um he it's really hard these days to to have social media right and not not
be able to find a picture of somebody there are no pictures of this guy anywhere um on social media on the
internet uh that was some information that the Cold Case unit was really interested in and I I have a feeling
they probably have talk to him or tried to talk to him but they certainly wanted
all the information I had about that guy oh yeah well Nick's not on social media much it's kind of hard to find you
I I find I can find pictures of yeah it's cuz I've posted cuz I post them well our listeners love to uh
Photoshop us now so that's a lot of fun oh right right the coordinates sent to Tim and Lance Let's just throw that out
there talk about it what's the deal hold on the coordinates were sent to me originally they were sent to you okay
that's why that's why we're here to talk about they they they love to take credit
for it I don't know that they did I I was drinking after watching several football games and watching the
documentary at the same time oh man to me those guys are we had so much fun at crime con and those those conventions
get crazy though I did so much blow with Tim and Lance it's it's I'm just joking I'm joking so what
about these coordinates oh yeah yeah we we sent in uh and it was just this email
that said stop looking and the subject or or Mor Murray was in there somehow and it was just these
coordinates and it LS leads you to part of the White Mountains uh this desolation Trail you have to go to to
get up there and it's like a 5H hour hike both ways uh I was never able to make it work
um but it does look if you look at the trailer for the mor Murray yeah series they're hiking and so I'm I'm guessing
they do track down this but I have no idea what they found up there cuz they got a little scared and
um we've definitely had our share of odd emails as you have with this this case as
well but um I air more on the side that whatever is going to happen is going to happen
anyway so whether I go on that trail or not right I don't really have a lot of like with the fact that they're like
well we're just too scared to go I'm like ah come on guys you got to do it you went yeah you you got to follow
through with that and I think they finally do um my my hunch is that it's nothing but an internet troll that that
wanted to like for shits and giggles just wanted them to waste their time yeah waste the time waste waste 10 hours
and and possibly you know endanger that's why they sent it to you they like I'm going to get this [ __ ] to waste
this time no thanks what was the was the did the person use a handle that that sent that to you uh it was the email was
redirected through the Netherlands through some sort of remailing email thing they which is weird though cuz
that email is connected to Mara Murray's fuel perks car yeah right no that's not
true Tim Horton's loyalty card yeah okay James so the book has been out for a while now and you've had a chance to
participate in this docu series where are you at currently with your theory um I I right as of this moment as of today
uh in 2017 October second right uh or is it the first yeah today's the first anyways um I would put my probability at
60% she's out there alive somewhere trying to stay off the grid maybe Canada M um and 40% that she was murdered by
whoever this tandem driver was do you have a list of suspects you like more of the tandem driver yeah it's one of four
or five people yeah and I'm not going to go to it specifically how many are men how many are
women two of them are men okay three of them are [Music] women this show is sponsored by better
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us at 1888 [Music] freedom all right we are back cheers mates we are back with art and Maggie
from the oxygen docu series The Disappearance of Mara Murray now do you guys have a hunch on where you think uh
Mara was heading to that night we you know she was taking a break for some reason but where do you think she was
heading to I think that rener is accurate in that there was somebody else involved
probably um whether she was going to meet a friend or somebody I personally don't
think that she was going alone um there could have been a tandem driver like a friend or somebody
I don't think it was a tandem driver and somebody helping her Escape I think they
were just going to clear her head she B enough booze for two people um I I think
that there was possibly somebody going with her to just spend the weekend hang out take a break she had all
intentions on coming back yeah I I agree I think you know you've got five or six
theories and you you see us map them out in one of the episodes yeah episode five
yeah none of those none of those are completely off the table until we can actually find her or her remains so but
we looked at the probability of what is what is more than likely that happened to her and more than likely you know
know something there was Foul Play involved in what happened to her now whether it was somebody she knows or
somebody that picked her up on the highway that's the big that's the big question you know what happened in that
7 to 10 minute time period which we've probably even narrowed down to like shorter than that but you know what
happened in that time frame why do you think in certain cases especially in this case that we have evidence that you
uncover and then people look at it it objectively and they say well no that's that's not true even though you've
backed up that evidence I have no idea why people choose not to believe that absolutely
Insanity it is insanity but but even with this though we did know yeah even with this we did know that um if someone
told us and didn't have evidence we wouldn't believe them you know I understand why people say Okay Cil smin
is saying that but how do we believe him um I get that I get that people want the
evidence but it's hard we we did know this would happen we didn't know to the extent of how
um really intense people are about believing this this police conspiracy theory yeah people love conspiracies but
as you talk to anybody in law enforcement and it's almost impossible to keep a conspiracy together sooner or
later somebody's going to talk and in this particular case I mean when we did the timing when we looked at witness a
when we drove the same route she did when we interviewed Cecil Smith it's pretty clear that even
without you know other type absolutely it was him just the timing of it it had to be him and you know he said he was in
the car you know it for us that whole conspiracy theory right now you know people are wasting their time spinning
their wheels on that that it was some other Cruiser there that's just not the case I mean it's it's really going to be
embarrassing when it does come out and the information is able to be out there that this these people have really
exhausted themselves on this bunk Theory we are trying to tell you that this is this is not the case like if you don't
want to believe us fine but you're going to look silly and and you know even people even if we had a video of the
whole thing they probably still wouldn't believe it no no So you you're going to
have that you know that portion of people that aren't going to believe it regardless of what we say but I'll tell
you this is why in a way I think rener is even more respectable than some of these people that think they're more
respectable than rener because rener is is looking at the evidence and the facts
and saying okay maybe maybe maybe I don't think my theory is Right anymore right he has enough you know dignity to
say Okay I I might have been wrong like I wrote a book about this and it could be wrong and that's like way more
respectable than man it is nut and and I'll tell you what obviously I'm coming from the law
enforcement side the frustration that law enforcement has I mean and and it goes to a lot of stuff I mean you talked
to law enforcement is a tough job right now uh especially uniform law enforcement um and unfortunately we kind
of go through these Cycles every 20 25 years we're in one of those Cycles right now and people for some reason want to
believe that law enforcement is is bad uh for whatever reason I mean it it feeds something in their their ego or in
their minds and I mean when you sit and spend an hour and a half with each one of these police officers as we did um
listen I've done internal investigations internal actually reported to me when I
was a US Marshal and I can tell you that you can tell when somebody's not telling
you the truth and or or something doesn't pass the smell test and I can tell you that every thing that we
uncovered here from the law enforcement side there wasn't anything where you know the hair on the back of my neck
stood up it was just like the simplest explanation is generally the explanation and that's what we found one
of my favorite parts of the documentary was that you guys did the drive that Mara had made that night before the
accident is there any observations or things that occurred to you that didn't make it on camera I think I think the
the condition of Mora's car right Maggie I mean we did that whole experiment with
the rag in the tailpipe and I we actually drove the car around you know we bought a a Saturn that was the same
year and and knocked out one of the cylinders on it and and did the experiment in the garage with the rag in
the tailpipe and then they actually drove that vehicle around um and more than likely even though we did what we
did to it this car was probably in a lot better shape than Morris was and Maggie
you drove one of those same Vehicles when you were UMass right I did I had an 04 she had a
96 yeah it you know we I think the hour time discrepancy always kind of puzzled us um you know did she leave right away
after she went to the liquor store did she stop somewhere did somebody see her you
know yeah when you when you go to the liquor store and the ATM they're pretty much right next to each other when you
go to the liquor store there's a diner directly across the street and we always used to go there at UMAS and go to
liquor store go to the diner that ATM I went to the ATM so many times um but I always thought that she had left the
liquor store and then met somebody at the diner and got lunch and that person knows where she was going in the opening
to one of the shows Maggie you state that the locals seem to think that Mara was
abducted how do you feel about that after meeting with the local people and does that tell us anything about the
area well that actually came from John Smith um I don't I don't think it made it in in his interview but um art you
were there for that interview John Smith said you know I've been up here all this
time and there were some really bad people up here and he you know uh that that came from John Smith that that the
people up there are often not that savory um and do I think that it was a local yeah probably I do um I think like
artart said at the beginning people go up there to be away from everybody and whether that's just you know the
lifestyle you like to lead or you have had a really bad past and you can't be in a place where you know you're in the
city into people all the time people know who you are you you're going up there to hide out and live a really
private life now on episode 5 you literally put all five uh theories on the table and you end up Crossing them
all out except for one well I mean I think we we both believe that Foul Play that there's Foul
Play involved that she was she was killed either by accident or by on purpose or you know somebody had an
intention to kill her or some some something occurred by accident either by an unknown person and and you know when
you look at these cases and and you do a lot of Investigations generally that if it's
somebody uh that the victim knows you're going to come to a conclusion fairly quickly in other words the case is
easier to solve than if it's somebody that has no connection at all to the victim and you know obviously this case
has been going on for 13 years it's a cold case and I always kind of look at it that geez I mean the the state police
the local police have spent thousands of hours investigating this case they've conducted grand juries investigative
grand juries they've put a lot of time effort and energy I mean even when we came up
with a couple of leads the next day they were on it so it just seems to me that they've investigated this to the best of
their ability you know even they'll admit you know wish we wish we had done this different or that different but the
but but you know none of it was done intentionally there was no malice in anything they did they did the best job
they tried to do and and that leads me to believe that it's very possibly somebody that she doesn't know um
because those are the hardest crimes to solve so if she were abducted or if she got into a vehicle willingly this is
just minutes after she turn down the ride from Butch Atwood why why would it go down like
that I think that it's possible she said no to Butch art thinks it's this that Butch because he was a school dist
driver he worked for the government um the county believe and she saw him as like an employee and didn't want to be
involved with the police that kind of thing I honestly think it could be as simple
as but didn't look like you know if you're just judging based on appearances he even said you mean he's this old
overweight man with a mustache she he could have scared her I mean he's just some guy up there like I don't know if I
would get in the bus with him um but I think it could have just been some young guy in the area there's a lot of them
that we have found that have been in jail for rape sexual assault like horrible horrible things that just said
hey uh I'm going to this party do you okay you want to get in she might have trusted him more and we
had heard from family members that Mora had hitchhiked in the past who did we hear that from AR yeah we heard it from
her high school friends right yeah that she had hitchhiked um that didn't make it in the show but that to us says okay
maybe this young guy pulls up hey I'm going to a party you want to come sure yeah one of one of the things I looked
at too was that she was under probation at the time for the for the pizza incident at
UMass and I think that that um you know if she got arrested for for operating Under the Influence if she was drinking
in the car I know this is all speculation but to me it kind of makes sense that that she would want you know
Butch pulls up and says I'll call 9911 she says no you know I've called triaa he knows that's a lie he goes to his
house and calls 911 and of course the westm across the street are calling 911 at the time so you know did she want to
avoid avoid law enforcement I would say yes cuz she probably probably would have
um either been in trouble uh you know obviously for operating under but it could have put in
Jeopardy her nursing school too that she was going through at UMass yeah yeah somebody that I believe that should be a
person of interest was the track coach hos supposedly or allegedly uh she was having an affair with but this doesn't
come up in the show that was one of the things that art and I um you know were where I was saying how rener had a lot
of good information that he came up with and we would say where' this information
come and it was rener the other day we were talking um someone had sent me an email talking
about hos and we had tried calling him he he wouldn't talk to us um you know so we we couldn't really talk about it in
the show but um you know afterwards someone sent me an email and I called Art and said hey what was up with hos
did did this really get looked at like did the police interview him where did all this come from and AOS wasn't even
known about until rener uncovered that whole thing so once again that was rener um doing that but I don't know I don't
know we don't really know what his Alibi was do we no we don't know what his Alibi was
but you know it and these are these are questions that law enforcement when you ask them are going to are going to hold
back on yeah CU I think we might have asked and and they can't they can't answer yeah
yeah we did and um uh you know we didn't get a we didn't get an answer from them
so this is obviously something they're looking at um we can say they're relooking at everything one thing that
I've got to know can you tell us if Butch Atwood had a CB radio in the school bus we asked that we asked that question
um and I don't know um we we tried to actually find out more about that particular bus we actually
tried to get a photograph of it yeah and we couldn't come up we tried I think we
tried to track it down at some point someone tried to track it down but my understanding is when he called 911 he
did it from his house he left went to his house called 911 it somehow got kind of screwed up uh it went to a different
dispatch it didn't go to Grafton County I think it went to Handover dispatch and then Handover dispatch kind
of relay it to Grafton County and Grafton County actually ended up calling back the residents and you know you
bring up a very good point because you gota you you sort of have to put all this together now you've got Westman on
911 you got Butch Atwood stopping his bus talking to her and calling 911 you have the morat around the corner who
also have some visual contact with this accident and then you've got witness a all this is occurring sort of in a 10
and 15 minute time frame uh and then you've got obviously Cecil Smith showing up so when you put all that together and
look at that timeline which we did um it kind of all makes sense the big enduring question here is
how How could somebody turn their head and she's gone in like 7 to 10 minutes that that's that's always been the big
question you have all these things going on and I mean a lot of them are like real real important data points because
we have logs you know we've got Grafton County logs and we found out some information about that that that that
came out I don't know if it made it in the interview or not um but we also have that whole jurist dictional fight that
some some that somebody reported that thought it was law enforcement it wasn't law enforcement it was the two tow truck
drivers arguing about who had the the money for the toe you know so we really have put a lot of this stuff to rest and
when you sit down and look at it it's like it makes sense holy [ __ ] it it just
makes sense it's the simplest explanation and I keep going back even yeah and we've even like sat around
again over a bottle of Cheetos being like okay what if which is lying what if she got in the bus with him and then
when he went and did that search for Cil he you know dropped her body somewhere or something happened like we have sat
there and said is that possible but then we look back at the logs the Westman saw her after the bus
left um am I correct in saying that art the I think it was because that was the flurry of the activity at the rear and
the morat saw her so so even the thought of her getting in his bus just didn't happen she would have had to walk back
over to the house and you and you mentioned the two people and the man with a cigarette and and that's that kind of
like has been sort of an argument between the two westm as to what each one of them saw um Mr Westman thinks he
saw the light from a cell phone trying to be activated um um and Mrs Westman I think wasn't really sure exactly what
the heck she saw so I mean that's been questioned too um one of the crazy things about this case is that cell
phone service there was no cell phone service up in these White Mountains and I think it's hard for some of us to
believe um is that factual like when you were up there investigating there is no
cell phone service at all to this day it's it's it's crazy because I think you lose cell phon service the minute you
kind of get out of Woodsville right Maggie yeah yeah and then you pick it back up at Beaver Pond which is at the
it kind of another 10 11 miles from the crash site heading towards Lincoln now there's one particular item that the
police have received a lot of criticism about and this is regarding the ATM footage where Mara had stopped to make a
withdrawal now one thought that I've had on this why they've not released this footage and that's a criticism that
they've got that they've not released it is it either that this footage does not
exist or that they had it in their possession at one time but but it may have been lost well what we can say and
know this T to hold tight till episode six is that the reason they haven't um released it is because if there was this
is me why I think they haven't released it um if there was anybody in that video
with her that was not at all related to her a license plate number of somebody's
car um they didn't want all of these people who latched on to insane theories to you know think this person was the
killer or track down this license plate number and you know these people that are just happened to be in this video um
to go after them so yeah that's exactly I think that yeah I think that had it needs to be protected and I think that's
really a good move um to protect the innocent people who would be in that video um and
other than that you'll have to wait till episode I mean that one of the problems
with this case is um anybody that has any information or any connection is being I mean we had a lot of problems
talking to people people had to get familiar with us because a lot of people wrong information has been put out with
you know put out about them um so law enforcement I know and they reiterated with that to me today that they're just
they don't want people innocent people harassed that have already been talked to by by law enforcement and really
that's not the way to handle a criminal investigation put innocent people out there that don't have any association at
all and might have just been standing in the background but you both feel confident in saying that a yes the ATM
footage exists and B the police are in possession of it yes yes you have to wait till episode 6 one last question uh
do you believe that this case is solvable I do yeah I do too when when when I mean I
I I will tell you this that when we first Maggie and I first talked to the state police and the AG's office they
believe this case is solvable and they have all the information so if they believe it's solvable I believe it's
solvable Maggie believes it's solvable so and and yeah and I think that lot of it again I know I sound like I'm coming
hard at the police conspiracy people and it's not that I don't think people should be talking I just think they
should focus their energy you know somewhere else but it it I don't even think it would have been this far if it
weren't for people who really really care and are contacting the police with tangible real information and people who
have come to me with real information um some of these leads that people have come forward with lately are really good
really good they're really good and I even said to Tim and Lance today I said hey guys you know you've been working on
this a lot longer than me and art have you guys been this excited for you know this case to be solved and they said
nothing like this not at all so you know I think we're all really really excited
and we do think it will be [Music] solved [Music] a big thank you to James rener if you
haven't already go and check out his book True Crime addict and a big thank you to Art and Maggie they were so kind
to sit down and talk with us also you keep hearing about Tim and Lance they are two great guys that did a wonderful
podcast that was all about the mara Murray disappearance so a big thank you to those guys as well yeah so check out
their podcast missing Mara Murray and the question from a lot of listeners is hey you guys covered this case yes we've
covered this case before we talked to Brer uh when True Crime addict came out and we actually cover this case and you
can find those on our website store or the iTunes Store all right thanks for listening thanks for telling a friend
thank you so much for sharing on social media it means the world to us we got to
get out of here cuz we got a a big case for next week all right until next time everybody out there be good please be
kind and please don't litter [Music] Angie's List is now Angie and we've heard a lot of theories about why I
thought it was an Eco move few your worse less paper no it was so you could say it faster no it's to be more iconic
must be a tech thing but those aren't quite right it's because now you can compare up front prices book a service
instantly and even get your project handled from start to finish sounds easy it is and it makes us so much more than
just a list get started at angie.com that's ngi or download the app today

The Disappearance of Maura Murray /// Part 2 /// 153

TrueCrimeGarage.com

On a cold dark winter night 21 year old University of Massachusetts student Maura Murray crashed her car in Haverhill, New Hampshire. A local woman reported the crash to the police. Maura was spotted at the scene of the crash by a local bus driver who stopped and spoke with her. The bus driver offered helped but Maura refused. Just a few minutes after the bus driver left police arrived on the scene and Maura was missing. 13 years later the Oxygen network released the much anticipated documentary "The Disappearance of Maura Murray" and have breathed new life into this cold case. Tonight we speak with some of the people closest to this case and documentary - investigative journalist Maggie Freleng, former US Marshal Art Roderick and true crime author James Renner.Beer of the Week - Tuckerman Pale Ale by Tuckerman Brewing CompanyGarage Grade - 3 and a half bottle caps out of 5

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Brief Summary

James Renner and Maggie discuss theories surrounding Maura Murray's disappearance, law enforcement's role, and the impact of social media on the investigation.

Key points

Quality Sleep with Ashley. Ashley offers top mattress brands at winning prices, helping children in need.
Mara Murray Case Discussion. Exploring the complexities of the Mara Murray disappearance with true crime author James Renner.
True Crime Garage Introduction. Nick and the Captain welcome listeners to the show, discussing their latest brew.
The Mystery of Mora's Shopping Cart. A shopping cart linked to Mora leads to a mysterious email address and a web of lies.
The Coordinates Conundrum. Mysterious coordinates sent to the investigators lead to a daunting hiking trail.
Theories on Mora's Disappearance. Experts discuss the likelihood of foul play in Mora's case and the suspects involved.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

There would be nothing I wouldn't do.

Discussion about how one would react if a loved one went missing.

5:12WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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