The Disappearance of Heidi Allen | Part 1 | Episode 341 | Morbid: A True Crime Podcast | Forensic Files

Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Alina. And this is Morbid. Hello. Wait, before we get into anything, this
is not what we planned. So, hi. Ooh, what's what's happening? No, I was just going to say, I just
realized we've been doing Morbid for 4 years. I know, that is really wild. That's like bonkers.com.
I know, it feels like a hundred years and 2 minutes. All at the same time. same time.
it feels like this has always been like our stick, our thing that we did we do together.
Like I don't remember life before and and I also feel like it just started. Yeah, it's a weird-ass feeling.
It is. It's it's been very weird, but very awesome. Very great. Very great. And you know what?
Um, speaking of very great things, uh, you guys have really liked the Butcher and the Wren playlist that I made. If
you didn't like it, I would question your sanity, to be honest, cuz we listen to that playlist in the car a lot and
it's pretty bomb. I it was really fun to make. I made it a long time ago, actually. Like I made it well before the
book was coming out. It was just something I made to get me in the mood for writing. I was like
to say, cuz it was like your writing playlist. Yeah, and it was just like things that I
pictured in the book and everything. So, when it came time to be like, "Hey, you
can share this with everybody." It was like, "Ooh, fun." But also like kind of terrifying, because it's like this is
how I see the whole thing. But you guys have been awesome and it seems like you guys have really dug it and I appreciate
it and you guys rule. And I literally can't wait until September 13th for you to read this book, because I just can't
wait. I can't wait, guys. excited. I'm so excited. You guys have been so [ __ ] amazing.
And yeah. I'm just really excited. I'm going on a little road trip, uh, in a couple weeks and I'm going to bring your
book along for the ride, so that I can finally finish it, cuz I've read the first like few chap- I've basically read
the whole book, cuz I got to read it while you were writing it. And I've read the first few chapters, but then I've
I've been like a little busy. I mean, I've been a little busy. busy, but I I want to finish your book,
you know. Yeah, sorry. No, I'm not. I have and I'm going to and I'm going to And then can you write
another one? Yeah. Really? Yeah, I already I'm already writing something else. Oh.
Hot take, everybody. I'm already writing something else, so stay tuned. There's like a couple times a year that
I wish this podcast was visual and that was one of them, cuz I was just like Cuz you were like, "Ho ho ho." But it's
not happening, so don't ask. No, I'm just kidding. No, we're not doing visual. No, no, because if you saw what
we both look like right now, holy eye bags, Batman. And what we're wearing right now is really very much who we are
as people. Yeah, I know we're like not supposed to banter, but we're only 2 minutes and 48 seconds in. So, I'll
describe Alina's sweatshirt. No. We were on the phone with my grandma and I said, "That's hot." because I am
wearing a, um, Simple Life t-shirt that has is. Paris and Nicole on it. Drew got it
to for me for Christmas and it it's my favorite shirt. It's like them in like the overalls, like the farmer picture.
Yeah, like that farmer picture and it just says The Simple Life and Tinkerbell's on it, too, and that makes
me happy. Aw. And then so like I said, "That's hot." to my grandma and I was like, "Oh, that's cuz I'm wearing like
my Paris Hilton shirt." And she was like, "Oh, and what's Alina wearing?" And I was like, "Um, my grandma doesn't
know what Stranger Things is." So, I was like, "She's wearing the shirt where a girl is meditating over her friends who
are sitting in a circle in a graveyard. Um, they're a little concerned about her, but don't worry, cuz Max's favorite
song, Running Up That Hill, is playing." by Kate Bush. It's a great sweatshirt. I'll post a photo of it. And I'll link
the Etsy shop that I got it from, because they were great. And it's a very comfortable sweatshirt.
Oh, hey, it's an Etsy shirt day, cuz I think Drew said he got this off of Etsy. There you go. Cool. Well, and I know a
lot of a lot of you are like me and you're obsessed with Stranger Things and I know that this is something that a lot
of you will like, so I'll post it, so you guys can scoop one, because I don't know what it is about white, uh,
sweatshirts. They're always the most comfortable. I don't know what it is. Alina and I have a theory going that
there's some kind of science behind a white sweatshirt, cuz I recently bought one from the Giggly Squad podcast, which
does say, "I hate men." I don't hate all men, but, you know, it's a cute sweatshirt and it's so comfy and it's
white and I think there's some kind of science behind that. There is. There's got to be some kind of
science. It's comfy, because you'll never wear it, because you'll get it dirty. There
you go. That's what it is. It's the forbidden fruit. So, that's been the fashion segment of today and now we
should always have one of those. I think we're ready to jump right into it now. We are. We are going to start in kind of
a weird place. Today, we're going to be talking about the disappearance, the abduction of Heidi Allen, but we're
going to start in a little bit of a place that we usually wouldn't start at, which is the search for the missing
person that we're talking about. Okay, Heidi Allen. So, Richard Thibodeau had become
involved in the search for Heidi Allen, because he was one of the last people to
see her alive. Heidi vanished from the DNW convenience store and gas station on Easter morning
in 1994. And Richard had come in that morning to grab a couple packs of cigarettes before
he and his family, you know, went about their day to celebrate Easter. So, Heidi
rang up this transaction. This would be the last transaction of the day at 7:42 a.m.
And according to Richard, you know, the two of them wished each other a good day, maybe said happy Easter, and he
headed back out to his van and headed home. Now, later that day, he realized Heidi
had gone missing. So, he called into the police to let them know he had been at the DNW that morning. So, the police
come out to his girlfriend's family's house to take his statement. All very routine.
His statement was pretty normal. He said after he bought his cigarettes, they went home, then he got ready with his
family, his girlfriend and she had two kids and they were like super close. Like it was a super close family unit.
They get ready, they go to her family's house and as they drive by the DNW, they
see that there is some police presence and they're like, "Oh." Just like kind of in passing comment to each other, "I
wonder what's going on there." but don't think too much of it. Yeah. Until they see the news segment.
Oof. So, his girlfriend, Teresa, and her family, they were like, "Richard, you got to call the police. You know, maybe
you saw something that you don't think is helpful, but will become helpful to the investigation."
Yeah. And so, the police are trying to talk to everybody who was there that day, rule them out as suspects. But the
police weren't so sure that they should rule Richard out as a suspect. Ooh. Because they had received a tip
from a guy that, uh, called Chris Bivens. He, interestingly enough, was actually dating one of Richard's family
members. Oh. Now, Chris said he remembered driving by the DNW store that Easter morning. He said it was sometime after
8:00 a.m. And he said as he was driving by, he saw two men arguing with a girl out front. And then 2 days later, he
called back and remembered that the trio were arguing next to a two-toned van. Okay. Who owned a two-toned van? Who?
Rich Thibodeau. Uh-oh. So, when Richard arrives at one of the first searches following
Heidi's abduction, the investigators, they pull him to the side and they're like, "Hey, can you fill out this form?
Just going to ask you a bunch of questions about your story, you know, the investigation, what you think
happened, what you would do. And, you know, it's really just to rule you out as a suspect. So, just go ahead, fill
this out. Let us know when you're done." So, he's like, "Okay, I'm going to fill
it out the best I can." Finishes up, hands it over. And the investigators are like, "Okay, cool. Thanks. Would you and
Teresa, your girlfriend, mind coming down to the station and answering some more questions?" So, they're like,
"Sure." Definitely hairs are starting to rise on the back of the neck, getting a
little nervous, but they agree. Yeah. They would be at the station much longer than they anticipated that night. And
that night would mark the start of a confusing web of an investigation, a takedown of two men in this county and
just years, like close to 30 years with unanswered questions. But before we dive into that, you need
to know about the girl who vanished, Heidi Allen. So, Heidi Allen, first of all, she just
seems like the tits. Like she seems awesome. Of course. She was born September 14th, 1975 in New Haven, New
York. Her parents were Ken and Sue Allen and she was like the quintessential Virgo. She had all her ducks in a row.
I love it. Her family was like super close. Most of them actually lived on the same street. And her sister, Lisa,
remembers growing up with Heidi and just how sweet she was. She said that she would share her lunch at school with
kids who didn't have enough. Aw. Like she remembered a specific instance when Heidi got home and was like super
hungry. She was in elementary school, she was super little. She was like, "Oh, I'm so hungry." and they're like, "Why
are you so hungry? You had lunch at school." And she was like, "No, I shared, cuz like so-and-so didn't have
enough." god, what a sweetie. Right? And that young to just have that inside of you. Exactly. And then when she got
older, she became an intern at the elementary school and this was something she was doing because her goal one day
was to become either a teacher or like a children's counselor. Mhm. So, she's an
intern at the elementary school and she forms this club for all the kids who have divorced parents and she calls it
the Banana Splits. Stop it. And it's just so that they can all have a place where they can go and talk about how
they're feeling and just know that they're there were other kids in their situation that they could relate to.
That's so emotionally mature. And mind you, she was 18 at the time she disappeared, so she was probably like 17
or 18. That's really emotionally mature. Yeah. And the Banana Splits. So cute. Oh my god. Right? Adorable. And
she was also known as a bit of a tomboy. She that's exactly how she described herself and her sport of choice was
volleyball. She actually played on her high school team and actually she was pretty tall. She was 5'11" and she was
also just super talented on the court. Get it, Heidi. So she became known to her teammates as the tower of power.
Hell yeah. Isn't that awesome? Hell yeah, she did. Now so she's working hard in school. She shared her lunch
with other kids. She's making sure like children of divorced parents have a place and outlet where they can talk.
Killing it at volleyball. And on top of that, she's doing all this other stuff. But first I have to tell you she was
absolutely beautiful. Yeah, she was. Like beautiful. She had piercing blue eyes but the older like when she was a
baby but the older she got they turned hazel. Oh, I love that. It reminds me of one of your little
Yeah, one of my babes is doing that right now. And I read this and I was like like it just like hit home for a
second. Now she had like this sandy brown hair. It was like kind of blonde. It was like bronde blonde and brown.
And she wore it super curly. I'm pretty sure she got perms that like and she saved up the money and paid her for her
perms herself. That was the look. Oh, you always know what I'm about to say. I said she had
the perfect 90s look. There you go. Now like it's true we say this all the time but and it's just true
regarding everyone we say it about. She just seems like somebody that you would want to be friends with.
Yeah. Like she had these kind eyes. She had the super sweet smile. She had dimples like just want to be your
friend. And she just seemed genuinely sweet. And on top of that like I was just saying she was super smart and she
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mvmt.com/morbid. Again, that's mvmt.com/morbid. So her senior year she was actually
taking extra classes at the local community college so that she could graduate not only with her diploma but
also her associate's so that she could get a head start on the degree that she wanted to earn which was in human
services. That's amazing. This girl is just like truly doing it all. Yeah. Now by the time she was getting
close to graduating high school and basically almost finishing her associate's, she had filled out more
than 150 applications for jobs in her field. Wow. And she would share that she was willing to do whatever it took to
get the job. They actually found one of the applications that she had filed and on it it said, "I'm willing to work from
the bottom to do anything. I love this field and I'll start anywhere." That's amazing. That's somebody who's like in a
job for the right reasons. Like wants to do this, knows that they might not be able to do exactly what they want right
away and is willing to climb the ladder to get there. And that's somebody that's
going to go far because somebody who understands that nine times out of 10 you got to start on the bottom rung of
the ladder Yeah. to get where you want and they're willing to hustle that way. They're the
ones that are going to work to get there. Totally. Yeah. And she was she was like putting
in work every single place she went it seemed. She'd been working at the D&W since she was 16 years old all while
doing school and everything else at the same time. So she wasn't just paying for perms. She
actually used some of the money that she made at work to buy herself her own car
which was a maroon Pontiac Sunbird station wagon. Yes. Yes, like very of the time.
Amazing. But it was unfortunately still parked in the parking lot of the D&W when the police arrived after hearing
that Heidi had gone missing. You always forget like you were just telling me how awesome she was and I'm
like, "Man, she just sounds great." And then I completely forgot that this is why we're here. Right. That's That's the
thing that sucks is like you find out so much about these people and you relate to them
Mhm. find like like the hazel eyes. Like you find a little something and you're like, "Oh, cool." And then
you're like, "Oh." yeah. hurts. Like your heart sinks. Cuz you're like this person like
you can never get to know this person. This person was never able to live to their full potential.
No. Yeah, it just sucks. goals and dreams that they set for themselves were taken away from by
somebody else. By some idiot. So Heidi actually wasn't even supposed to be working that morning which speaks to
her character even more. She had switched shifts with a co-worker so that that co-worker could spend time with her
family that Easter morning. Wow, okay. Yeah. So Heidi's just a wonderful wonderful human. She is. She
celebrated Easter with her family the day before and she handed out presents to all her family members while she sang
like songs from Peter Cottontail. So stop it. It's so pure. You're breaking my heart here.
I know. It's I was reading and I was just like, "Oh my god." It just got heavier and heavier.
Now so that would obviously be the last Easter that Heidi got to spend with her family and for the next 28 years the
town of New Haven would question what really happened that Easter morning. But before we get into everything else I do
just want to share a quote from Heidi's sister Lisa that just describes Heidi to
a T. And doesn't Lisa have a podcast? Lisa does have a podcast and it's called One Sister's Journey {dot} {dot} {dot}
Keeping It Real. Oh, nice. I love it. Yeah. So she said that out. Yeah, definitely go check that out. And
she said of her sister, "I want people to know that she was a good kid. She was one of the most joyful and selfless
people and I can only imagine she would have been an even more beautiful adult. She just wasn't given that opportunity."
That's horrific. It is. And like I think of you when I read that. Like you're like Exactly.
imagine just like having to talk about my family member like that. Cuz you live your whole life with your
family members especially if you get along with your family members which we do.
Yeah, sitting there and thinking like man like I always say I'm like man like even my kids I'm always like man I can't
wait to see what kind of adults they are. Like it's just going to be like a fun thing to watch them become the
person they're going to become and it's like Right. her sister was like oh you know
like it's going to be really interesting to see what kind of adult she is. And you when you that gets just like taken
away Right. and you're like I never get to see that. And I knew how great you were going to
be. Like I knew you were going to like move mountains. I just can't imagine feeling that. Like I feel it in my heart
a little bit. Yeah, it does it like hurts. And we feel it on a level that's so far
away. Like Yeah. from the actual people. It's It's just awful. It's just really sad. So that morning in
1994 honestly it started off pretty normal. It was rainy and the roads weren't in a great condition to drive on
so Heidi's boyfriend Brett actually followed behind her as she opened up the store that morning.
That's sweet. They had been dating for years at this point and over the years like people thought it was weird that
sometimes he would open the store with her. Like he would sit and watch her open the store. But it I think like
people were trying to say it seemed controlling but I think he was doing it in a sweet gesture kind of way of making
sure you know this is a convenience store. Like it's not place in the world and she's a young girl by herself. Yeah.
I think he's just making sure that not she doesn't run into any trouble. Yeah, I mean I can say like I could see John
doing that in not a controlling way and I just want to make sure you're okay. Yeah, 100%.
Because when I like when I would work like I like nights at the hospital he was a basket case worried and there were
times when he was like, "Let me just drive you in and pick you up." Like I don't want you to drive by yourself. I
don't want you to It wasn't because he was like, "I need to control you." It's like I just want to make sure you're
okay and I'm worried about you. Exactly. So to me that's what that feels like cuz
That's definitely what I think it was. Opening a convenience store is like that that's like a risky job to have.
Convenience stores get robbed all the time. Like that's a really scary job to have a lot of the times so it makes
sense. Yeah, exactly. I I think he was just being a sweet kid. It comes off that way to me. And by all
accounts they were very much in love. Brett would later say that Heidi would drive completely out of her way just to
give him a kiss good night. Oh my god. And she would help him iron his clothes. Adorable. Like and they planned to start
having kids together once they were in their 30s. I am obsessed with them. Like they seemed very much in love and
by all accounts it seemed like Heidi loved loved him. Yeah. So they made their way inside the store. They opened
up right around 5:45 a.m. Brett stuck around I think for about an hour it seems as Heidi got everything set up and
once people kind of started rolling in getting coffees and scratch tickets and siggies all that Mhm. Heidi seemed like
she was good to go, so Brett gave her a kiss, and he said, "I'll see you in the afternoon." Because they had plans to
celebrate Easter with his family that afternoon. Now, after that last transaction at 7:42
a.m., a few more people actually came in and out of the store. And the police knew this because some customers had
left money on the counter in good faith for whatever they purchased. But finally
though, somebody realized that the clerk hadn't stepped outside for just a second, she was gone. She was nowhere to
be found. Now, as this person is realizing this just by happenstance, a sheriff's patrol
car was passing by. It was right around 8:15 a.m. And somebody at the store kind
of motioned him to come into the parking lot. Now, this person told the cop that
the D&W seemed open, but there was nobody around, and the situation just seemed off.
So, the cop steps inside, and he notes that there's cash on the counter, there's cash in the register, the
register's still there. There were signs that somebody had been working that morning, because behind the counter sat
Heidi's jacket, her purse, and her keys. And like I said, her car was parked right out front.
Yeah. Now, her family was called straight away. And when her cousin Melissa, who everybody called Missy,
found out that Heidi was missing, she ran home right away, and she started posting her photo all over missing
posters that she just immediately started hanging up around town. Just like got to work straight away. Now, the
poster had a photo of Heidi from her sister Lisa's wedding, and her description. A white female, 5'11, about
145 lb, light brown blonde hair that she wore very long and curly, and blue hazel
eyes. The day that she was missing, she was wearing jeans with a gray sweatshirt
that had a plaid logo across the front of it, and white sneakers. They also said that she would either be
wearing glasses or contact lenses, and she had pierced ears. And when we share a photo of her on
Instagram and socials, I will also share the progress photos that have been done
over the years. Yeah. It was clear though to the police that Heidi was not a runaway. Like this whole
situation, it could like all of her stuff was still at the Yeah, it doesn't make sense.
she has her own car, and it's still here. It doesn't add up. She could just leave in that car.
Very much. And she would have had like if she was going to run away. Yeah. But they were like, no, she was
taken from the store against her will. It's clear as day. It's just a matter of figuring out who would have wanted to
hurt her, abduct her, and why. Now, the county where she lived was one of those places where everybody knew
everybody and every last detail of each other. But there were some some things among the community, excuse me, that
just remained unspoken. It gave off a vibe where like people would leave their doors open because nothing bad happened
there. Unless you were part of the drug scene. Oh. The drug scene in this area was not
something that you wanted to become involved with, because there were plenty of people using and selling drugs.
Specifically in this area, it was marijuana and cocaine at the time. But that specific community obviously
wanted people to keep their noses out of it all. And if they weren't going to, then things could get violent very
quickly. That's really scary. And shortly before Heidi's disappearance, she had told her
boyfriend that there was a man who appeared to be on coke uh excuse me, cocaine who lived near the D&W who was
coming in the shop regularly and freaking her out. Okay. And it was something of note to the investigators
as they started working. So, the investigation of Heidi's disappearance was interesting. Oh, no.
Yeah. And you'll see why I feel that way. Everyone will hear that. Yeah, you're going to see why I feel
that way definitely in this episode, but in part two, because by the way, this is
going to be two parts, you're going to be screaming in the car or in the shower or in your house while you're cleaning.
Or right next to you. Yes, you'll be screaming right here. Good. You particularly will scream right here.
So, first things first, roadblocks were not put up until the day after Heidi went missing. Good, that's like that's
really helpful. That's like using an umbrella the day after it rains. Yes, that's literally what that is.
Are you like You've had an entire day to leave. Exactly. And she went missing in the morning.
Throw them up. That's the thing, the police had started working on the search like an hour and a half after the last
purchase had been made that morning, but for some reason didn't think to put roadblocks up until one full day later.
It makes no sense. sense. No. Like a full a full day later, they're like, oh, you know what?
That's a good idea. have helped yesterday? Throwing up roadblocks. Let's try it today. Well,
and the thing that sucks and I hate to say this, but if roadblocks had been put up on day one, I wholeheartedly think
she could have been found. That's infuriating. Cuz she whoever took her obviously put her in a car and drove her
somewhere. Why would you not put them up? Like what? That's infuriating. And at that point, it's even more
infuriating that Amber Alerts weren't even a thing yet. Oh, yeah. It's so in it I in our in my
mind just because they've been around literally since I was born, I'm like, why didn't they put an Amber Alert out?
We take we we like take for granted that these things have been around for most of our lives and all of your life. So,
it's like things even like 911 Yeah. that you forget that that wasn't always around. And it actually wasn't around,
you know, in the very near past. It was when it came. Yeah, it hasn't been around that long
really, which is crazy to think about because like we were just saying, you just feel like it's always been around.
Exactly. So, yeah, roadblocks have been around for a while, and the knowledge of
putting them up is pretty useful, but there's that. Now, in addition to that [ __ ] I read this book uh this book
called Scrapped about the disappearance and the investigation. And the authors Lisa Peebles and John O'Brien noted that
usually in the state of New York, if there's a big case like this, the state police would take over the
investigation, because the local police, especially in this community, they didn't have a ton of experience with
cases like this. Yeah. People just didn't go missing in this town. Like people were not murdered that
often in this town. Yeah. But the New York State Police were called off early in Heidi's
investigation because of two cops that had beef with one another. Oh my god. The local sheriff, Charles Nellis, I
believe is how you say it, refused to let Jack Doyle, who was the head of the State Police, have any part of the
investigation simply because they didn't like each other, and there were some kind of like unspoken competition
between the two of them. So, it's just two tiny men swinging their dicks around at each other.
Literally. And with with a missing girl. That's the thing. It's like let your ego
get in the way of finding an 18-year-old girl on Easter morning, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I'm rooting for
you. Now, Mario Cuomo, who was actually governor of New York at the time, called
in the National Guard himself to see if they could locate Heidi, cuz he was like, what the [ __ ] are you guys doing
over there? Somebody should do something. But try as they might, they just kept coming up with dead ends. They
were searching all over the place, and of course in spots that the average person wouldn't be able to handle. They
would pick up like anything they found, any article of clothing, soda cans, anything hoping to get DNA. They filled
up more than 12 bags by the time the search was called off, and not a single item in any bag could be traced back to
Heidi. Jeez. What happened? So, Heidi's family was not pleased to say the least in the beginning of this, and they
actually ended up coming up with their own reward in the hopes that the $20,000 might motivate somebody to come forward.
Um they also featured Heidi's case on America's Most Wanted, and they were still coming up with nothing. So, that
was when they made the decision to call in the help of the FBI. So, there was a man called Clint VanZandt who actually
worked at Quantico. Oh, wow. And his he was specially trained in analyzing serial killers and sexual
predators. Um he actually was involved in two pretty high-profile cases, Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber, and Timothy
McVeigh. Woah. He predicted their characteristics pretty much down to a T. Jeez. So, in his professional opinion,
whoever had kidnapped Heidi would most likely try to insert themselves into the investigation somehow.
Okay. Whether that would be a tip or calling back over and over again to follow up on that tip, maybe join a join
a search party. They would just want to feel a sense of closeness to to the aftermath of what they'd caused.
Which how [ __ ] up is that? How [ __ ] up is that? And I feel like that happens
a lot. Yeah. Cuz we've we've covered like a bunch of cases I feel like where the
person responsible was in the search party. Yeah, because if you think about it, like shitty people, all they want is
attention. Yeah. That's all they want. Like they want attention, they want to feel
powerful. Usually because they don't have any power Yep. in their own lives, so they try to
create it outside by like just making misery. Mhm. So, they'll do things to get attention on themselves, even if it's
negative, because it gives them some sense of like I matter. Right. And that's what these people do. It's
like they do these horrible things with no regard for human life that they destroy. And then they insert themselves
into the investigation so that they can hear one a thank you for a tip or like and just sit there and be like, I caused
this. Yep. And now I get to be a part of it. It's so [ __ ] up. It is. And like especially if they're
involved in the search, it's like you're looking at these desperate family members, and for them, they're getting
off on that. Yeah, cuz they know miserable people like to create other people miserable
people. Have you heard the phrase misery loves company? and it's true in like every aspect of
life. Miserable people on every level, be it murderers or like, you know, trolls on the internet.
Yep. No matter what kind of level they're at, all they want is to create misery that they can feel like like
they've created it because they'll don't feel alone. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And that's it's so
[ __ ] up. an FBI profiler? Yes. Yes, I forgot to tell you. We're actually we're four years in into
this, and Elena's like, I actually have a third job, guys. Surprise. Well, the FBI profiler there, VanZandt,
also said that if there there any kind of sexual motive in this crime, then the person responsible would potentially
record their crimes in some kind of writings or drawings or collect articles written on the crime, which is weird
because we just watched the the little things. Oh, yes. And that happens there. There you go. Now, if they had a
connection to the victim that came up in the investigation, they would that they
would likely be closely following. They would try to explain it away in the most
logical way they could. Yeah, that makes sense. Now, I personally feel like these
characteristics are embodied in somebody that we're going to talk about in part two.
Huh. So, like I realized I recently No, this is So, like I recently realized I always
say Keep that in your back pocket. Keep it I'm It's in my back pocket. I was listening to an episode of Morbid
the other day, which I don't usually do, but I would just wanted to hear this one.
I was going to say, "Wow." And Well, I don't cuz I don't like to hear my own voice.
no, me neither. That's like my own. I like to hear yours. I like to hear yours, too. But, um I realized I say
that a lot. And I was kind of looking at over some of my old like case notes was like, "Why do you always say that?"
That's funny. But, I'm going to keep going with it. Yeah, it's your It's yours. It's mine. TM. Own it.
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on at all in this investigation. There's literally no DNA evidence, there's no fingerprints, it's there's nothing.
So, that was until they got a call from that Chris Bevins about the two men arguing with the young woman in front of
the store Aha. near the two-toned white van. Now, Chris's girlfriend, who again was
related to Rich Thibodeau, he said she said that Chris really just liked to be in the limelight and really loved the
attention that he was getting. Okay. And then she followed it up with letting them just know that he was not too
intelligent. Okay. So, I think she was just trying to say, "Take what he says with a grain of salt because I'm not so
sure about it." And she Exactly. She was like, "You know, I'm not I'm not going to call him anything. I'm not going to
say it. Just take Take with this what you will." Yeah, I think she was really good at um
compliment sandwiches, I feel. But, the thing was the police are [ __ ] desperate for any information on
this case, and they want to know more. So, they're like, "All right, we're going to take what he says with a grain
of salt, but like we might be calling him back." Yeah. But, then another call came in and also noted something about a
two-toned white van that was {quote} driving erratically later in the day that Easter Sunday. Hmm. And then, a man
who had been inside the D&W at the same time Richard was called in a tip of his own.
He said that he saw Richard inside the store and he parked his car right in front of Richard's van. Now, the man
said he was pretty sure there was another person in Richard's van because while Richard was in the store with him,
the man said he saw the van move while he was inside. So, like somebody else must have moved it.
Now, I don't know. If that was true, then was Richard one of the men that Chris Bevins
had seen at the store, Bevins, excuse me, and perhaps the other man was somebody
he knew and someone who joined in on an argument that he was having with Heidi for one reason or another. Huh. So, to
be sure, the police are going to have to call Chris Bevins once again. Now, they call him again. It's about 10
days after his original tip, and they decide to call him up and have him come down to the station to chat. Now, in the
days leading up to that, the police were asking around town specifically now about Richard Thibodeau. He's become a
suspect. And any other men that he might be connected to. And in their questioning, they learned
that Richard had a brother named Gary. And they also knew that Gary had actually met Heidi on probably more than
one occasion. They were sure there was at least one occasion. Okay. They seem to have met sometime in early '94 at a
bar where Brett, her boyfriend, Brett's brother, worked as the bar manager. Okay. Now, rumor had it that Gary had
some kind of crush on Heidi and that he made her uncomfortable because he told her boyfriend that he found her
attractive. So, there was some kind of weirdness going on there. Which also, why would you do that? Yeah,
if you But, I feel like sometimes dudes do that where they're like, "This is my girlfriend." And then their friend is
like, "Wow, she's so hot, bro." so weird. "I'm not a piece of meat." Like that's
so I don't know. That's just weird to me. Yeah, it is. Like to go out of your way to be like, "Hey, I find your
girlfriend attractive." Like, "Okay." It's weird. Like you can't do anything about it.
Yeah, like I've I've been in that situation before and just been like, "Okay." And you feel like I'm sure Heidi
just felt icky. Yeah. I mean, and and then I can I guess I can double advocate this a little bit cuz the more I thought
about it, I'm like, "Well, you know, if I meet my friend's new significant other, husband, boyfriend, girlfriend,
wife, like whatever." True. And I'm like, I can be like, "Wow, like what Like he's so handsome or like she's so
gorgeous." Like, you know, like I can say it that way of me not being like, "I'm attracted to them." It's just like
"Hey, they're like just They're just pretty or they're just really a good-looking person." It all comes down
to what Gary actually said and his tone when he said it, and unfortunately, none
of us were there. I was just going to say, and that's exactly what it is. So, I think you can
look at it both ways. can. My initial My initial reaction was like, "What the [ __ ] Gary?" Well, and so was
everybody else's. But, then I'm like, "Okay, I guess if it was just like, 'Wow, she's so pretty.'"
Right, but it It was noted that it made her uncomfortable. Well, and that is the That's the That's
the the golden thing here is it made her uncomfortable. what matters here. Exactly.
So, they they find this information out and they're like, "Okay. So, maybe it was Gary that was with Rich, and maybe
those were the two men who were arguing with the girl that Chris saw. Heidi, Rich, Gary. Is that the scenario?"
So, they were like, "Let's call Chris and see if he remembers anything about the men that fit Gary or Richard." And
this is the part in the investigation where you're going to want to punch things. Cool. I love when that happens.
Yeah. Because for the for some reason, the first part of their interview with Chris was not recorded.
Why? Why does that happen? I don't know. I know why that happens, but like We know why. We know why. It's like you're
going to get caught. It's the same thing. We reference the West Memphis 3 case all the time, but it has so many
little pieces that fit into other cases so well that like Jessie Misskelley, like they didn't start recording his
until they made sure that they got him to understand the story they wanted him to tell and understand what And he
didn't even tell it right then. Just putting that out there. Yeah, you actually just summed up what
might be happening in the next like three paragraphs. That seems to be why we get a "Oops, we
didn't start recording for 3 hours." And it's like, "Oh, cuz you were making sure
that you could figure out how to make them confess." Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So, first hour not
recorded. No. Once they were done there, he the he they first had him at the Central Square
PD. Once they were done with him there, they went to the new sheriff's headquarters, and a recorded statement
was taken this time. Okay. Now, Bevins said something about being low on gas, but being worried about pulling into the
the D&W because he thought he saw some kind of domestic dispute unfolding. Now, I just want to say, he's gathering all
of the following information as he's driving by. Okay. That's all I'm going to say. Yeah. So,
he said that he saw one guy, and as they were arguing, he said one of the guys held the girl behind in a bear hug.
That's what's how That's how he described it. He had her in a bear hug from behind. And he said she seemed to
be hysterical and struggling. Ooh. But, in his opinion, it just seemed like she was going through something and she was
mad at one of these men. And Bevins, you know, just driving by in his car said, "You know, I just thought maybe one of
them was her boyfriend and that they were like breaking up or something and she was hysterical about it."
That's how they see us, guys. That's how they see us. Okay. Okay. That full well it have been Heidi
Allen being abducted and this [ __ ] chalked it up to She sad cuz her boyfriend's breaking up with
her. And also um okay, even if that was the case, why would you just ignore the fact that
now he can physically assault her because she's upset? Right. Or like we're just A man has her hand has his
hands on the physically upset woman. It doesn't matter what the [ __ ] is going on.
No. This man is physically assaulting a woman who is hysterical and trying to get away from him.
Yeah. Even if you don't want to involve, which I get like you don't want to call
someone, like maybe you could you don't want to escalate the situation or something, you pull over and you call
police. That's the thing. It's fine that you don't want to go over there. To be honest with you, I wouldn't want to go
over there. Cuz you don't know what's going on. You don't know who those people are.
He might have a gun, you never know, but you call someone. over and you call the police. I would be
like, I don't know what's going on, but it looks like she's in trouble. There's a domestic dispute up front. And I'd be
like, you got to get here right now. And also, it's just a lot to chalk up for a
situation involving three people you literally don't know. That's my favorite part is just like, well,
I was driving by and I saw this quick scene. I now know all of their backstories. I know their relationships.
I know that she is a hysterical woman. That's just who she is. And that poor man is just trying to he's just trying
to control her cuz she's going to go crazy. It's like you literally don't know those people.
What? Like you don't know those people. Which And how do you know she knows those men? Like she's at hysterical and
trying to get away from one of them. That's the thing. I'm like, I kind of believe your girlfriend when she said
you just like to be in the limelight. Yeah, cuz that's a that's a wild narrative to pull from driving by
something. And also, don't assume. It just makes an ass out of you and you. Yeah.
Not me. It's true. It's stupid. So he said there were other cars at the pumps. He's and but he
couldn't describe any of them other than the van that the he thought belonged to
these two men, which was also at the pumps. And at this point in the story, he said that the three people were now
walking toward it. So when asked to describe the van, he said that it was either a Dodge or Chevy
and that it was between 1979 and 1988 for the year make. And he said there was a stripe going down the middle that was
dark blue. Okay. Now, Richard did have a van that was two-toned with a stripe down the middle, but it was a black
stripe. I mean, dark blue Dark blue and black exactly. one to [ __ ] up. It is. I will give him that.
Also, I always think of like the years when they're like when they're like, it's a car between this year and this
year. no [ __ ] idea. I'd be I'd be like, I don't know, it's a car that is between the invention of the
automobile and now. You could also Like that would be those would be my years that I'd be able I'd be like, it
was invented. I don't know. I could tell you it's a Toyota. I don't know what Toyota.
Yeah, I could barely tell you that. I'd be like, it's a car with four wheels. Drew had a Toyota for like years and I
could not remember if it was a Camry or a Corolla and it was parked in our driveway every day.
Yeah, I'd be horrible at that. So I'm always astounded when people can like actually close in on years. It was a car
on four wheels. Yeah, it was it was within the last 100 years, I think. It had a horn, I think.
Yeah, there was no horse and buggy, so I it was a car. Yeah. So so pretty good on
the car. Pretty good description. that black and blue thing, I think you could easily Totally. I I knew you would
play devil's advocate there and I knew I wouldn't be able to argue with you. Yeah. Now, he then went on to describe
the men that the girl was with. So one man was described as being about 10 ft away from the other man who was
following behind holding the woman. So we have one guy ahead about 10 ft and then these two people, guy and a girl,
guy's holding on to girl following behind. Totally normal. Yeah, totally normal.
Yeah, definitely. So the man in the front ahead of everybody else, Chris said he's probably about 5'11. The other
guy, he said probably around 6'2 because he's taller than the the girl who was probably about 5'11. Mhm. Heidi was
5'11. Yeah. He said the solo guy in the front was older and hunched over. He said both
men were white, but he didn't see their faces. Now, one of these statements that
he made was handwritten and the other one was typed. But interestingly enough, the handwritten version has a lot of
contradictions when compared to the typed version and even with the spoken version. Huh. The handwritten statement
makes the solo guy who Chris described as 5'11 5'6. So we're shrinking him five whole
inches. I was I was going to say this man's almost half a foot. Yeah. Now, some people wonder if that's
that guy has a different description because the deputies maybe coerced Chris into making the guy in the front
description match Richard Thibodeau. Mhm. Because Richard Thibodeau was right around 5'5. Oh, okay. So they're like,
let's Let's call it 5'6 because that you know, like how would he get it like on the
nose Yeah. 5'5, that works. Ooh. Now, the officer who typed up the handwritten took quite a few liberties to the story
or just omitted things completely. He did not write down the height of the man who was holding the woman. Now,
remember, Chris had originally said this man was probably around 6'2 because he was taller than the girl who was quite
tall herself, 5'11. The officer did write down that the girl was 5'11, but nothing about the man's height who was
holding her. Not a specific number, not if he was shorter, not if he was taller.
These are all like basic things Yeah. that you write down in a statement. Like this is wild.
And they're like, you need to have a height written down for what And he gave you one.
And he gave you one, so write it down. Yeah. And you need to write down the one he actually [ __ ] told you. It's not
like fill in it's not Mad Libs. No. So with all the height stuff out of the way, the officer decided to take one
more liberty to say that the van was parked near the pumps rather than at the pumps like Chris had said it was.
Later on down the road, there were also posters with Heidi's information on them, but they seem to have decided to
shrink her actual height and advertise that she was 5'9 rather than 5'11. What? Could that be because the second man
that they wanted to fit this narrative was Gary. Gary would still be taller than her if
she was 5'9, not if she was 5'11. This is shady. Now, back to where we started this because it's going to get a
whole lot shadier down at the station, baby. With Richard Thibodeau and his girlfriend Teresa being brought in for
questioning. That's where we started. So once the couple arrives at the station, they are immediately separated
and the cops who were talking to Richard want to go over his story with them one
more time. He went through the whole entire thing again. Woke up Easter morning. I smoked Teresa's last
cigarette. She would have been pissed. Hopped in my van, parked along the front of the D&W. Wonder why they changed that
it was at the at the pumps. Huh, look at that. Parked in the front of the D&W. Grabbed his ciggies, wished Heidi a good
one. Now, then he made his way back home, won about Easter with his family, but then
he called back Tippen. And I think the cops were very stuck on the profile that Van Zandt had come up with saying
whoever was responsible would likely insert themselves into the investigation. And I think they were
trying to apply that to Richard Thibodeau because he called later that Easter to let them know that he had been
one of the last people at the D&W that morning. Was that his way of inserting himself
into the investigation? I could totally see that. I will hand that right over. 100%. But then if you
look at it from the other side of things and he hadn't called in to tell them he
was there that morning and then they found out that he was the person who made the last transaction, that would
also look very shady. Yeah, there's no winning. You're damned if you do, you're damned
if you don't. And you would I know that that is true that like people like we just said,
people do insert themselves. They love to insert themselves. That is a huge thing that a lot of criminals do.
And remember he showed up at the search. Exactly. But on the same token, it's like, but we also want people to come
forward and say tips when they have them and not feel like they can't because they're going to be looked at like
they're just trying to insert themselves in. So it's like that's a slippery slope
kind of look at things to take by the investigators cuz it's like, well, you want people to call in tips Look at
Chris. Where would you be in the investigation without his [ __ ] tip? Yeah, so like I get why they need to
like I get that why that's like floating around in their head a little bit. I get
that, but like to like really nail him for that, it would not be great. So far, exactly. Now, I could see maybe where
they thought he was going above and beyond because apparently he put a big sign up on his house that said praying
for Heidi a safe return. And he also had posted her missing person's flyer to the back of his van,
like in the back window. Okay. Which is also helping the investigation and you want people to do things like
that, but you can look at it from Chris Van Zandt's Clint Van Zandt's point of view and say is he just like that is a
little over the top like And that's that's driving around with it on your van and knowing that people are thinking
you're helping when you know that you were part of it. Absolutely. Putting it on your house knowing that.
Like I get that. get it. But then I also see it as he was one of the last people to see her and maybe he
feels some kind of weird connection. Or like survivor's guilt. Yeah, like he's just like, man, if I had seen if I was
there at a different time, maybe I could have stopped something or maybe these people would have left because I would
have been there. Right. So I can I can 100% see both sides so far of why they would think certain things and why it's
not awesome to think those things. Same here. Same here. And I will say too, this like going to play devil's
advocate again, like I see why they're why they're thinking that he's inserting himself and all that and like the sign
is weird. But at the same time, this is a super small community and an 18-year-old girl just went missing. Tons
of people are putting up signs for this girl and leaving signs in the back of their car with her information. So Yeah,
it seems like it's like kind of a tight-knit community. It is. Yeah. So, I don't know. Uh maybe
it was the small town guy in him, but as far as the police were concerned, and now given Bivens' array of statements,
they wanted to get access to that van and have it thoroughly investigated. And again, I get that. 100%.
it. Rule him out. He's a suspect. Rule him out. I've always said, "Overdo it." Yeah. Like to be proven wrong. Like
nobody's going to get mad at you for going above and beyond. Absolutely. Because that's the thing.
You have your suspects, your whole job is to rule them out until you have the primo suspect.
Exactly. But unfortunately, he seemed to be the only suspect getting investigated.
Uh-oh. So, they they want to see if there's any kind of DNA in that van that could place Heidi there. They hoping
that it's going to be an open and shut case. But first, they had a couple more mind games that they wanted to play.
So, in the room with Richard, they said, "Guess what? Teresa's in the other room
singing like a canary. She's telling us everything. We know all about that morning, Richard."
And Richard's sitting there like, "I don't know what the [ __ ] she's telling you cuz Oh my god. what I've told you is
the truth. I'm not involved." In the next room, Teresa was actually not saying anything about Richard at
all. In fact, the officers in that room were trying to break her down so that she would, but she just wasn't budging.
And things finally got to the point where they threatened to take her children away if she didn't tell them
the truth. And she [ __ ] lost it on them at that point. She was like, "You need to arrest me with something or let
me out of here because I've told you everything I know and you're not bringing my kids in." Yeah, you're not
taking my kids. I didn't do anything. No. And she said, "I I've told you everything I know. Like
I was with him. He went to get the cigarettes, he came home, we went to Easter, you came out to Easter, took his
statement. I don't know what else to tell you." Yeah, and it's like if that was it, I can't again, like you can't
force me to make [ __ ] up for your narrative. So, Richard and Teresa, they were let go that night, but not before
the cops gained access to that van. Totally They needed it. Yeah. Richard also took two polygraph tests. Confusing
whether or not he passed them. Some sources say yes, other sources say no. Oh, okay.
They're about as useful as a hot dog in a trench coat though, so I'm not going to focus on it. They did take blood
samples, they took hair samples, and they took pubic samples from him. There you go. And overall, the Thibodeaus had
been kept at that station that day for more than 8 hours. Damn. Now, there was no blood found in
Richard's van. None of the hair samples, fingerprint samples, or any sample taken from the
van matched anything that belonged to Heidi. And like nothing proved that she was in that van. Wow.
They had her fingerprints in the system already, which is something we're going to get into probably in part two. Oh,
okay. And they went through some of her belongings so that they could use different things to compare to the
samples. Nothing matched. There was zero indication she'd ever been there. But it was a small town, and people were
starting to catch on to what was going on, and people were starting to talk. Now, people who had already told the
police, like no, I don't know anything, were coming forward with information now. Huh. They said they either recently
remembered or were too nervous to say before. Which does happen. Yeah. It does happen.
Many of those people though had that had been spoken to in the past were specifically asked if they had seen
Richard's van parked in front of his brother Gary's house the day that Heidi went missing, and all of them said they
had not. Yeah, it's like if you if you have, you have. If you have and you haven't.
It's that simple. But now people were totally changing their stories. Some were saying the van
was parked there all night, others were saying that it was parked late into the night on Easter, and people had others
like crazy stories regarding the Thibodeau brothers. One witness called in a tip saying to the police that he
saw Gary and Richard carrying an 8 to 10-ft long object in the woods. He said whatever it was was wrapped in in clear
plastic and it had the ends tied off with rope. What? Now, according to him, this was the
morning of April 6th and it happened in Palermo, New York. So, the police follow
up on this tip. They check this area of the woods, they expand a little bit, just try cuz they're not finding
anything where he says it's going to be. They move out a little bit further. They
come up with nothing. No such object was found in the woods. What? But they still the police, the
investigators, they have a very strong feeling about Richard and Gary. So, they call Chris back in town in one time
again Oh my god, sorry. They call Chris back in to the station one last time. And by this point, Chris has seen this
van three different times and said, "Yep, it's the right style of van, but it's not the same color as the one I saw
that morning." Okay. He has seen He has said this multiple times. But this third
time seeing it, he changed his mind and said, "I'm like 80% sure that maybe yeah, it's
it's the right van, but I'm like 80% sure." Cuz I'm sure after a few times of it, you're like, "I just want to give
you what you want at this point because I think I might be wrong." Like at that point, like you said, you're being like,
"Maybe I am wrong. Maybe that isn't the van." Like I would I imagine that would happen. Of course.
And then after a little bit of coaching, which you can read this full transcript
in that book Scrapped, I definitely think you guys should go read it and we'll link it in the show notes.
You read this this coaching that goes on, and then at the end of it, Chris says, "That's the van."
Oof. Yeah. Okay. Now, at this time, there were four other suspects in this case. But Chris Bivens' story, alongside
by the sudden influx of tips putting Gary and his brother Richard at the scene, sealed the deal for the
investigation. And on May 25th, 1994, both Richard and Gary were arrested. Oh, damn.
And Gary at this point didn't even know he was a suspect. Holy [ __ ] Like they had come and talked
to him a few times, but he was he gave them DNA, he gave them whatever they needed, and nothing matched. So, he was
like, "I I wasn't there." Like me and then he said him and his girlfriend were sleeping that Easter morning, and they
woke up when Richard called them and said like, "Did you see the news about the D&W?" Oh.
But it was just the two of them in the house, so they didn't have anybody to say that
they were with them. So, one morning, May 25th, he wakes up and there's a SWAT team surrounding his house arresting
him. But they weren't arresting Gary on kidnapping charges. They asked Richard was arrested on kidnapping charges, but
Gary was arrested because he and his girlfriend Sharon had failed to show up in court in Massachusetts on an
unrelated drug charge. Oh. The investigators wanted him behind bars while they made their case against
him. Yeah, of course. is. Yeah. That's an easy thing to do. Yeah. So, neither brother knew that the other
had been arrested until days later, and they see each other in the wreck yard. What?
And as soon as Richard heard what they were holding Gary on, he's like, "I got I'm here on kidnapping charges. Like why
the hell are you here?" And Gary's like, "I'm here on like some drug charge from
like years ago. Like I didn't show up in court." And Richard is like, "I know exactly what they're trying to do.
They're trying to pin this on me, and now they have you as an accomplice." Wow. they're standing there chatting with
each other, guards come over and separate them. They get separated. Oh, [ __ ] And then Gary and Sharon get extradited
back to Massachusetts. And then you're like on you could see both sides of that one, too.
have to separate them. like you would have to separate them so they can't get a story straight to tell
[ __ ] to the investigators. Oh, like there's so many like I get it. I get it on both sides. Like I can see
how this is like a railroading case right now. Mhm. And also I get it why it's a pretty
good case right now. Yeah. The only I think the only thing that doesn't make it like a great case is that they have
literally no DNA. going to say the fact that there's no physical evidence. Nothing. And also it's like do you think
these two guys are sophisticated enough that they there would be not a trace in that van?
Nothing. Nothing. Like not a trace? Right. Come on. Exactly. Like a fingerprint, a hair,
something. tried to say like, "Well, they cleaned it out." If you look at in the thing
that says is and if you read the book, you'll find out Richard did take his car to a car wash the next day, but because
when they search your [ __ ] they don't put it back nicely. And they they leave like the fingerprint dust and everything
all over the place. But it looks shady as [ __ ] to go to the car wash the next day.
it does. But he was like, "My van's a mess. I got to clean it up." Yeah. So, it's like you
could devil's advocate the [ __ ] out of this entire thing. could. You get both ways. It's crazy.
So, Gary and Sharon get extradited back to Massachusetts. Richard is able to make it out on bail because he actually
did I think he did landscaping work for this woman. Like he had worked for her before. And she was like, "There's no
way he's involved in this." And she posted his $15,000 bail. Holy [ __ ] I don't know who I love enough to do that
for. Um really? well, I'd hope you'd never be in jail. You never Well, what if something
happens and I fall asleep on you? But I'm saying that's a That's a That's a loyal customer right
there. Yeah, like we don't see that happen a lot. No. But she said she's like, "I don't see a
world in which he's responsible for this. Like I know him, I don't see it." That's also very impressive.
Wow. And other people in town also came to his defense, too, saying there was no
way that Richard was the person who was behind all of this. His friends actually
put a sign in his yard that said, "Dick didn't do anything." Oh my god. Wow. Now, Gary on the other hand
couldn't post bail. Gary We'll get into it in part two. Gary's a bit of character.
I I had a feeling. Gary has a past. know Gary, but like I just got vibes from even you just saying Gary that I
was like, "I feel like Gary's He's got a past." Gary's done some stuff. He has. He
absolutely has. Now, and but and again, there are people in this town that absolutely believe that these two are
the ones responsible, and I'm not saying either way. I haven't made up my mind. Oh, okay. So, Gary on the other hand, he
couldn't post bail, and as soon as he and Sharon were taken into custody, they separated them, obviously, and tried to
do the same thing to Sharon that they'd previously done to Richard's girlfriend Teresa. Okay.
They said, "We know Gary's involved. You tell us everything. We know he kidnapped
Heidi, and if you tell us everything," they said, "we will move you anywhere in the United States that you want to go,
and you will be placed in the witness protection program." Holy [ __ ] And she said, "That's great. I have
nothing to tell you." Wow. She said, "We were home sleeping that day. We woke up when Richard called to
tell us that the like something was going down at the DNW. That's that." Yeah. And they kept pushing. They were like,
"Listen, like anywhere you want to go, you share and anywhere you want to go." She's like, "I don't want to go
doesn't want to go. Nothing's happened. She refused. She said Gary had no involvement, and she and Gary both
maintained their alibi forever. They never broke on that story. Never. Wow. So, when they were in Massachusetts in
in custody, the police were searching their home on numerous occasions trying to find any kind of solid evidence to
prove Gary's involvement. They were talk they were taking boxes and boxes filled
with all kinds of things, but as they tested and tested, nothing could be linked back to Heidi at all. At that
time, Gary actually hadn't been announced as the second suspect yet, but people knew why Richard had been
arrested, and they could add two and two together pretty easily. And you know, people started talking being like,
"Gary's involved. Like we know something's going on." Now, while they were incarcerated, the Syracuse Herald
Journal actually posted a story pointing out how weak the evidence was against Dick. Yeah, cuz I mean it no matter
what, even if you're like we feel like he's involved, you got to have something, man.
You have to have something. Something. And it really is again, West Memphis three-ish because it's like we
they have zero physical evidence, but they're just like, "Yep, you did it." We did it cuz we can't tie you to the scene
at all. Exactly. You did it cuz you like I guess for Richard it just sucks that you were
the last person that saw her that day. That really does. So, but they post the Oh my god, they post at that point
nobody was posting anything. No. They were writing articles. So, they they put this article out That's that's
how weak the evidence is. And a few newspapers in town actually later on throughout the investigation would do
interviews with both brothers, and people were starting to get pissed about it cuz they're like, "They're suspects
in murder cases. Like why are you giving them the time of day?" Yeah. And the newspapers were like,
"Usually we don't get to do this because the lawyers will tell them not to talk to any press, but in this case, their
lawyers are telling them do all the press you can." Yeah, cuz there's nothing holding you.
to clear your name. There's nothing holding you. But then it's also like if they were the ones involved, then like
holy [ __ ] What are you doing? Right. But like how would it's this is so [ __ ]
But one journalist was allegedly threatened by the police for putting out these articles that were kind of giving
Richard and Gary like the time of day. Whoa. Alleged. Alleged. Now, some luck would come to the
investigation when a furnace in the back of Gary's home was checked. And when two of his former cellmates
would come forward and tell the police they had some serious information. Oh. So, while the police were taking bags
and bags out of Gary's home, they realized that he had a furnace in his backyard, and it he kind of used it like
as a burn pit. Now, obviously they want to look inside and test anything that might be lingering. So, they did find
bones inside. Oh. They find bones inside? did find bones, you say? They did find bones in his furnace.
Human bones? So, they weren't quite sure if these were human remains or if they were
animal remains. So, they called a forensic anthropologist to test them. Now, the forensic anthropologist found
that most of the bones were chicken bones, but there were a few that could not be definitively decided upon. Oh.
He said it was possible that they could be human, but he said, "These undetermined bones are consistent in
color and appearance with the other bones that we found, meaning they're most likely chicken bones, but I can't
rule out that they could be human bones." you can't say definitively one way or another.
Which sucks because Holy [ __ ] human remains in his furnace, or does he have chicken bones?
[ __ ] So, yeah. Oh, that's scary. massive. And that was that on that. He just said there's no way to to
definitively decide. He just said most likely chicken bones, but I can't rule it out.
Also, like maybe this is just me. Why do you have chicken bones in your furnace?
I don't I mean this is like What is the reasoning for that? Chicken bones in your furnace? You just
throw them out. I don't really know. know. Like I'm just what I'm like what why were you burning chicken bones?
I'm a vegetarian, so I wouldn't know. In case you guys didn't hear. No, I don't I don't know I'm just like
why would you even have chicken bones in your furnace? I I hate to like be this gross, but like would you cook a chicken
in your furnace? No, not a furnace. think unless unless I'm thinking of a different type of furnace. I have no
idea. This is like very strange. well, maybe It's all very strange. Yeah, dude, I don't really know. So, no
matter what, that's strange. Yeah. That's some weird [ __ ] And my my eyebrow is quirked.
I tried to quirk mine, but I have Botox. Oh, wow. So, it didn't matter. This was huge for
the investigation, and it would later help the prosecution build their case against Gary, of course. Mhm. And then,
what put the final cherry on top for these these investigators and the prosecutors was when two inmates, Robert
Baldasaro, excuse me, and James McDonald come forward, and they say that Gary was
definitely involved in Heidi Allen's disappearance, and worse, he had murdered her.
They said Gary described some kind of drug deal that he and Heidi had been involved in. The story changed a couple
of times. At one point they said Heidi had screwed Gary over, and then in another version, Gary had screwed Heidi
over, and then she threatened him. So, he and his brother abducted her from the store and killed her by hitting her over
the head with a shovel. Okay. Now That's awful. Absolutely bonkers. Horrible. And the media goes bonkers,
and they release a story saying these two men come forward with details that only the kidnappers would know. But
that's really not the case. No. Because we don't know what the kidnappers would know because we don't
really have a lot in this investigation. yeah, like what really information would
they have that we haven't all heard? But they they post they they post that story, and then the prosecutors are
finally comfortable going forward with a formal arrest of Gary Thibodeau. Wow. So, he gets arrested. I believe it
was like 3 months after he had been arrested on the kidnapping charges. It was August that he got arrested for
kidnapping. I mean, those bones are not That's not great. Doesn't look good. not great for you, man.
No, it's definitely not. No. I mean, you're right. I need to know why. Guys, email us if you have like a
furnace in your backyard that you use as a burn pit, and or if you have any kind
of furnace, and why you would have chicken bones in there. Yeah, like maybe I'm just not thinking
it through cuz I don't have a burn pit or anything like that. I don't I just don't understand why that would happen,
but maybe I'm wrong. Unless I don't Like if you're a farmer and like you are disposing of the rest
like the chicken carcass, I don't know. Yeah, and it's like, "Okay, I guess you would burn it, I suppose." Would you? I
don't know. I'm not a farmer. have no idea. I don't know. That's why I'm I'm just more like, "What
the fuck?" Is that weird? I mean, the fact that there's bones that they could and I know that it's one of
those things where it's like we can't definitively say either way, so it makes it like
scary. But like I don't know. I don't know. know. I don't know. We And again, remember, can't definitively say, but
most likely chicken bones. Well, that's the thing, and I think that's the thing that we all need to
like concentrate on is they're leaning more towards it being a chicken bone, but they can't there's
something that's holding them back from just conclusively saying that. Exactly. It's one of those things like prove
beyond a reasonable doubt kind of thing. if I were on the jury and they said, you
know, these bones were found, I'd be like, "Holy shit." Yeah. But then if they said you know, they
most of them are consistent with chicken bones. Like if they sat there and said 80% of them are chicken bones, 20 are
undetermined, but consistent, your mind would go, "Those are chicken bones. Why would they be human bones?"
Like why would those 20% be human bones? Yeah, exactly. But like But it could be.
happen, but again, that's a reasonable doubt, right? Exactly. It's hard to prove beyond a
reasonable doubt. It is. It really is. Absolutely. But what was this about Heidi Allen
being involved in a drug deal? I told you all about Heidi Allen in the beginning of this, and not once did she
sound like the kind of girl who would be involved in any kind of drug deal. No, that's when you started saying that, my
mind was like, "What?" You're like, "What the fuck?" we're trying to put her there? What?"
And most people were confused and shocked when they heard about this. They were like, "I That doesn't make sense.
Like we know Heidi. This is a small town. I don't know about that." I don't know
about that. But it turns out that the local police had been using Heidi as an informant since she was 15 years old.
What the [ __ ] And that is where we're wrapping for part one. Oh my god, she was an informant?
She was an informant. She was Well, that changes everything. forced to become an informant, but
that's all I'm going to say right now. Whoa. And I will tell you exactly why in the
beginning of part two, and then we are going to go over some shady investigations where when you're
involved in a court case, both sides, the defense and the prosecution, have to show each other everything that they're
going to use in court. That didn't happen here. Oh, good. Files were hidden, tucked away.
Justice, you know. There's going to be a secret recorded conversation that somebody else may have been involved in
this. There's another murder that we're going to touch upon. There's a lot coming up in part two.
Wow. That was wild. I didn't see that coming at all and now I'm even more worried for Heidi. Yeah, it's a it's a
lot. This case is absolutely heartbreaking. And the thing that stinks is, you know,
like maybe justice was served. It might have been, but there is a reasonable doubt in the mind of a lot of people.
There's questions. There's questions and there just shouldn't be. Like I wish for everybody
involved that there didn't have to be questions. That's the thing. It's when there's
questions lingering at the end, then justice has not been served. Exactly. So, that's not good.
Yeah, so this is coming out What is it? This is coming out on Wednesday and part
two is going to come out on Friday. So, we won't make you wait too long. Yeah, it's going to be back-to-back.
Yeah. Yeah. All right, cool. So, um, we hope that you keep listening. And we hope you
how we ended that. Keep weird. weird that you forget how to end your own show that you've been doing for four
years. That's actually a lot. Bye. Bye.

Heidi Allen disappeared on Easter morning back in 1994 from the convenient store she’d worked at for years. Her car was still parked in the parking lot when police arrived, her purse, keys and jacket were all behind the counter and there was still money on the counter and in the register, tipping off the police that this was not a crime motivated by robbery. The police began to look into two men after receiving a few tips and were pretty sure that they had the right guys… but did they?

Check out this great resource about this case:

Scrapped: Justice and a Teen Informant by Lisa Peebles & John O'brien

Connect with Wondery http://wondery.com/shows http://facebook.com/WonderyMedia http://twitter.com/WonderyMedia http://instagram.com/WonderyMedia

Brief Summary

Heidi Allen disappeared in 1994; Richard and Gary Thibodeau become suspects amid a flawed investigation and shocking revelations about Heidi's past.

Key points

Celebrating Four Years of Morbid. Ash and Alina reflect on their four-year journey with the podcast.
Heidi's Impactful Life. Heidi was known for her kindness and dedication to helping others.
Heidi's Disappearance. On a rainy morning in 1994, Heidi goes missing from her convenience store. Her boyfriend Brett had just left her after a sweet goodbye, but soon, she was nowhere to be found.
Community Response. Heidi's cousin quickly mobilizes the community to search for her, posting missing person flyers everywhere. The urgency of her disappearance is palpable.
Investigation Challenges. The investigation faces numerous obstacles, including local police rivalry and lack of experience with missing persons cases. The community's trust is shaken.
The Van Movement Mystery. A witness claims to have seen a van move, raising questions about who was involved.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I can't wait until September 13th for you to read this book.

Excitement about an upcoming book release.

1:56WatchDec 28, 2022

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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