Shadow of the Bridge /// Part 1 /// 878 | Forensic Files

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>> Welcome to Off the Record. I'm your host Nick Crime. >> It's good to be seen and it's good to
see you. Off the record. Thanks for listening. Thanks for telling a friend. >> True Crime podcast.
>> Be good. Be kind and don't live. >> Gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some ground.
>> It's a great day in the garage when you have two friends to join you. We have
the captain, of course. He's here every week, but we are joined today by Ana Kaine and Kevin Greenley, our friends
from the Murder Sheet podcast. We buddied up a few years back and shared a case that we were all four of us very
much obsessed with. And now with the recent release of your fantastic, wonderful book, Shadow of the Bridge,
The Deli Murders, and the Dark Side of the American Heartland, it's out now. It's available everywhere. It's an
incredible read. Anybody that has been eyeballs and earballs deep in this case for years must go and get this and check
it out. The dust jacket tells us that on February 13th, 2017, two teenage friends
went for a walk in the woods just outside of the small city of Deli, Indiana. They should have been safe, but
Liberty German and Abigail Williams never made it home. The next day, searchers found their bodies in a
clearing. The two girls have been brutally murdered. Incredibly, in the final moments of her life, Liberty
somehow managed to capture a video of the man who would soon murder her and her friend. This blurry recording showed
a man lumbering toward the girls and then gruffly commanding them to go down the hill. A fascinated public obsessed
over those clues. Speculation about the killer's identity ran rampant on social media. Meanwhile, a sprawling law
enforcement investigation led to some of the darkest corners of the heartland. Still, the case remained unsolved for
years. But that changed when Deli resident Richard Allen was arrested in October of 2022.
We have the authors of Shadow of the Bridge, Ana Kaine and Kevin Greenley, joining us here today in the garage to
talk about this case, the podcast, and really any way that the captain and I choose to steer this ship. So, welcome
to the garage, guys. This is probably long overdue. >> Well, well, thank you guys so much for
having us. We're absolutely delighted to be here and just want to commend both of
you for your coverage. We we love you guys. So, >> we really do. Do you remember when you
first learned of the murders? Where were you? What were you up to? Because here you have arguably two podcasts that
have, while we are able to shine a light on some other unsolved cases with the murder sheet and our great garage cast
here, we both have continued to return time and time again to this case. But the both of you were not yet seated up
high in your powerful podcasting chairs back in 2017 on that horrible day when a
tiny little man with hell in his heart decided to abduct and take away two precious and very special little girls,
Liberty German and Abigail Williams. Anya, let's start with you. >> Great question. And and honestly, my my
story is going to make me sound kind of dumb. I remember vividly I was in the kitchen at my parents house and my mom
and I are both very into true crime. We would talk about cases that we saw on the news and I remember reading I think
it was one of the English tabloids coverage of deli and my mom was so upset because the girls Abby and Libby
reminded her of my two youngest sisters. They're about the same age and she was like I could totally see them going on
this bridge to take Snapchats or something innocuous like that. And I remember just telling her, "Don't worry,
Mom. They're going to get the guy." One of the girls seemingly caught a picture of him on the bridge. Years and years
later, that that just didn't seem to be happening. But at the time, I was like, "This is going to be solved quickly."
>> And as for me, I happened to have a relative in the hospital at the time, so I wasn't paying much attention to the
news for the first couple of weeks. And then I remember when I did start paying attention to and became aware of this
crime, it already felt like it was so incredibly complicated because so many details were being released and
speculated about on social media. I just imagined it would be impossible to really catch up and really understand
what happened. >> And for the handful of our listeners that are not familiar with the murder
sheet, we should point out that you guys are our neighbors. You are in the great
state of Indiana, which of course this is where this terrible case took place. Were you both in Indiana at the time?
>> No, I was living in New York and and Kevin was in Indiana. >> I love the title. It's so very fitting.
Shadow of the Bridge, the deli murders, and the dark side of the American heartland. Your book is over 400 pages,
so it's very much a complete telling of this Indiana tragedy. And you get so many words. You only get so many words
to put onto the cover. Kevin, what is the story behind the chosen title? >> Well, when we thought about it, it
really feels like this case cast a shadow over the town, over the families, and over all of us who have been
following it for so many years. as you so abley said, we keep coming back to it because there is something here we just
quite can't quite escape. It's just like a a shadow over all of us. >> And I I will add to that one thing we
learned during trial that kind of we didn't necessarily know about prior to picking the title because that the title
has been something we came up with a long time ago. But, you know, Libbyy's phone data shows that the girls, you
know, descend after they are being abducted by the killer. And it it sort of was like some police speculated to us
that, you know, they were at some point in the shadow of the bridge sort of as as some of these things unfold. So, it
kind of it kind of took on a new meaning for me when we were at trial. And not to
make this some mystical thing here, but really for five years, over five years, we only had a couple things to look at
and point to that we could recognize as evil. And it's you have an inanimate object like the bridge that sort of
represents some form of evil. Because to me, the first time we see Bridge guy is from the
footage from Liberty's phone. It's like this big scary tall bridge birthed this evil little man that we see for the
first time and for five and a half years it's who was bridge guy, why was he there that day? What was he up to? and
he just so happened to cross paths with, and I shouldn't say cross paths because
I've always believed that it was set like a snare trap that the the the bridge was his spiderweb and he was just
waiting for the flies to fall into it. And what was your experience with the high bridge uh when you went out there?
>> Great question. I completely agree with that analysis. I think the bridge was
his trap. whoever was going to cross the bridge that day was going to be the person or people he went after. And for
us, neither of us is very athletic. I don't like heights. So, whenever we would go to the trails of Deli, first of
all, there's a real heaviness there. There's a real sense of sadness there. It's often pretty deserted. But, I
remember the first time we went, we didn't go the main path to like lead to the bridge. I think that was blocked
off. We we headed for the banks of Deer Creek and then were looking up at this just massive hulking bridge and it
looked so unstable and frightening and we remember just feeling like wow the girls must have felt very trapped up
there once they realized they were being followed. Anagna says the bridge is unstable and people who have walked out
across it talk about how when the wind blows sometimes the bridge itself moves and there's even missing planks in the
bridge. And I recall when we spoke with former Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter, he said
after he crossed the bridge and then had to go back across it, he felt so uneasy
he actually had to crawl across it. >> Yeah. And that was a bit of a shocker to read that in your book with Doug Carter
because he's the type of guy type of man that within 30 seconds of interacting with him, you can tell right away this
is a brave, smart gentleman. And for him to have to crawl as so many others were
sort of reduced to with this bridge, for him to have to do that told me, you know, we were offered many times, we
were asked by other podcasters, local folks to go out to the bridge and I and while we we planned several times to do
that and ultimately the plans would fall apart. But I knew in advance I Ana, I'm
like you. I don't know what happened. I used to do ropes courses, jump off of cliffs when I was a kid, but at some
point in my early 20s, I became terrified of heights, and I I wouldn't have I don't know that I would have made
it out 10 feet onto that bridge. So, don't feel uh don't feel any uneasiness because as Kevin says, the bridge would
be shaking. I would be shaking on there as well. >> I appreciate that. And I'm going to tell
you, I did I just the thing that kept flashing in my mind was like some YouTube video of like podcasters fall
off bridge and die. Like I was like, we don't want to be those people. It's it would be two. I mean it that that would
be us. That would be Kevin and me. >> So on February 13th, 2017, we have both the perpetrator and the victims arriving
at the trail system roughly at the same time in the early afternoon. And by all accounts, the the victim, this was
something that was a hot debate early on in the in the goings of this investigation. But by all accounts, the
victims do not know Richard Allen, who is later identified as Bridge Guy. >> Yes, that's right.
>> And they're arriving that day about the same time. Talk about the the search that commenced and what does that tell
us about the town of Deli and the county, Carol County, as well? So many people out searching for these two
girls. So, the surge really gets started pretty quickly when Libby and Abby fail
to meet back up with Libbyy's dad, Derek, as they planned. And, you know, he looks around for them, and I imagine
he's thinking, "Oh gosh, teenagers. Maybe they're just late." Although, frankly, that was pretty out of
character for Libby not to be in contact. So, when he can find them, he brings in his family. Libbyy's family
sort of swarms the trails and they're all looking for her. when they cannot find her and when she is just not
responding to texts, not responding to calls. Um, and and they they basically say, "This is getting scary." And they
phone in law enforcement and law enforcement sends in sheriff's deputies, police officers from Deli. There are
firefighters involved. All these first responders going across the, you know, entire woods looking for the girls. And
I want to do note that they're not looking for bodies. They're looking for maybe girls who got injured or who got
lost or or something like that. They really don't suspect any foul play. They just think maybe someone twisted an
ankle and they're hunkered down somewhere scared. And I I want to stress that when Anya talks about the first
responders doing the search, that of course is entirely accurate, but that's only part of the story because Deli is
the type of place where everybody wanted to pitch in once they realized what was
going on. Employers, businesses were even telling their employees, "If you want, take the day off and go and join
in this search." It was a real community effort. >> Yeah. Like people were so committed and
when I ask people why is deli like that almost like is it just a very friendly town people say it is it's a town where
everyone knows everybody and it's a town where it's traditionally like a farming
community and what we've been told is like sometimes in those rural farming communities there's just this real sense
of like if my neighbor is in trouble I'm going to drop everything and help them deal with whatever situation that is and
that that definitely came into play here. One thing too is Indiana, for those that have not had the privilege of
traveling through or staying in the state of Indiana, Indiana's tends to be quite a bit more religious than many
other states as well. And I I would think that that has something to do with the tightness of this community of Deli
and Carol County. >> Yeah, a lot of the people in this story are people of faith, and that's
something that did strike me. Not everybody, but but a lot of people who were involved in this case.
>> Even the police chief of Deli, Steve Mullen, he is so strongly a man of faith. He doesn't even swear. He he will
do he will even say he will go above and beyond to avoid swearing. >> There was quite a bit of swearing in
your book, by the way, Kevin. >> Yes. My father pointed that out to me the other day.
>> Kevin's father was not happy about this. There was uh about as many fbombs as a
Guns and Roses album. Let's talk about the Patties a bit because really leading the charge on
Searching for the Girls was Mike and Becky Patty. I I know that a lot of this is going to be repetitive because the
the folks that have been longtime listeners of our show and your show know the case very well, but there there are
some people tuning in today that don't know the particulars. So tell us a bit about the Mike and Becky Patty.
>> So Mike and Becky Patty are a couple. They were Libbyy's grandparents or I should say Becky was her paternal
grandmother and then Mike is her stepgrandfather. And they're I I truly think of them,
this is going to sound cheesy, so I apologize to them if they listen, but I think of them as sort of a power couple.
They're they're a couple that's like gets things done just in just in life. I mean beyond this whole situation, but
when the family hit this kind of crisis, they were very much dedicated to each other, dedicated to their family, and
dedicated to figuring out what happened to the girls. They just have that kind of relationship, I think, where they
kind of weather some of these storms. Mike is a lot quieter. Mike is very practical. He's, I believe, an engineer,
so he has that sort of logical analysis of things. Becky is someone who's just kind of a force of nature. She's going
to get things done. And, you know, they're they're tough people, but they're also very kind in our
experience. They're very, very kind. They look out for others, and they're I don't know, just they have a gentleness
about them that's really impressive just given everything that's happened. But when when Libby turned up missing and
then when when things started to happen in the case, they were they were going to be people who were never going to
give up advocating for Libby and Abby. >> The following day, a shoe is found and
then a one of the search teams, a man from the search team spots a body or finds the girls. He was, from my
understanding, actually hanging out with Mike Patty the night before when the girls were still missing and they were
trying to strategize and sort of game plan how to how to find the girls. Take us into that meeting as well as the
discovery. >> Yeah. So, it goes back to this idea that people know each other and they're
calling in their friends and their friends are coming in and dropping everything to help them. So that
searcher did know Mike Patty and and there were these communications of what can we do to help? Where can we search?
Civilians taking it into their own hands because again they don't think they're looking for a crime scene. They think
they're looking for two lost little girls. So the next day so many volunteer searchers turn out. They're being
assigned into different groups and sent out there. A a group of them, several groups of them really converge on the
spot where the girls are. And you have some men who are more in, you know, around the creek who are seeing clothing
and they're seeing shoes and they're saying, "Okay, these might be clues." And then on the other side, you have
people on foot who are going through the forest and and one of them does come across the girls. It's a shocking sight
because they can't really see them. They're in a bit of a shallow indentation near the banks of the Deer
of Deer Creek. They just come upon them and they're so pale. He he initially thinks they're mannequins and then very
quickly realizes this is a crime scene. So he's able to tell the other searchers
with him like don't come any closer. We need to stay here and make sure no one walks over this crime scene. When the
girls are found, from an investigative standpoint, there are three clear and visible findings immediately that are of
note with the girls. The the bullet, the phone, and the sticks. There's been much
to do about the branches. Talk about all three pieces of those uh evidence or parts of the the crime scene. So, the
first thing that's probably noticeable at the crime scene is that the the girls are covered in these branches. And when
I say covered, I really do mean they're they're really just a couple of handful of them. They don't cover them up as far
as someone looking from overhead or someone coming right upon them. Although I will note that when it comes to the
view from the other side of the creek, they do provide more coverage. So some have speculated that the goal was to
render them hidden from the other side of the creek versus people on the side of the creek with the bodies. Those are
the sticks. So they they basically kind of crossed over them. And some have seen
patterns in them. And then others just felt and law enforcement felt that it was just somebody trying to make sure
they weren't seen from the other side of the creek. >> And then another key piece, as you
indicated, was this bullet or this unspent cartridge because it was a chamber that had been in a gun and had
been cycled out without being fired. It was discovered between the bodies of the
two girls. And this became even more crucial once you start considering the phone because the phone was the phone of
Liberty German. And on that phone was a recording of basically their abduction, the abduction of these two girls. And on
that video, you get an idea of what the abductor, the kidnapper, this guy referred to as Bridge Guy, you can see
what he's wearing. And you can also hear what he is saying. And he says at one point, "Guys," and then there was a
pause and then he says, "Down the hill." And during that pause, you can hear the
sound of a gun rack. So it becomes clear that one of the ways he was able to control these two young girls was
through brandishing a weapon. And so it became clear that the bullet at the crime scene must have come from that
weapon. >> Now, initially, law enforcement only released a small portion of that video.
What did you guys learn or feel like you might have learned by them releasing the
full length of that video? >> I felt the thing that really chilled me was I felt I learned how scared the
girls were. So when we all saw this initially, I think they released just a still from the
video which was like a zoomed in version of Bridge Guy and then a few years later
they released kind of a bit of a clip of him walking and and you know they released audio at different times. So
first it was just down the hill, then it was guys down the hill and all of that kind of gave a sense of like what they
were looking for which was who is this guy? Does anyone recognize him? Does anyone recognize his voice or the way
he's walking or how he's dressed? And what the full video did in court was just show us that, you know, these are
two girls who I think are being stalked by this man. I feel like as a woman, I've been in situations where you almost
have this kind of voice where you're like more high-pitched and you're more of like, okay, if I act really normal,
this guy's going to leave me alone. It's like they sound scared, but like they're
trying to hold it together to avoid setting him off. And you can tell that they're breathing very heavily. It's
just it's very upsetting to listen to because I I remember when he approaches them, one of one or both of them says hi
to him. Like they're trying to be friendly. They're trying to be nice and they're clearly very scared because I
think I think most guys who are not like threatening, you know, you don't want to
do something where you're like following behind two young girls on a bridge. I think most guys if you're like, "Oh, I
don't want to freak them out. I'm just going to wait till they go and then I'll, you know, come back." Like once
they come back, then I'll use the bridge. You know, you're like most guys are more thoughtful than that. So, I
think they realized something's not right here and we're being followed, but I think they were just hoping it was a
misunderstanding on their parts. And and I think what really stuck with me was Abby saying to Libby at one point, I'm
paraphrasing, but something like, "Don't leave me up here." And that broke my heart because they never they never left
each other in the end. The sticks, as I said, there's been so much talk about and speculation about the branches that
they mean something, that they're significant to tell us who was responsible and why the girls were
killed. But in all reality, the sense at the scene that investigators are getting
immediately is that no, that this these are not branches that were freshly cut. They don't show markings of having been
cut. These are in all likelihood branches that have by the everyday power of the great mother nature fallen to the
the forest floor. The killer collected them in haste and attempted to camouflage the the the bodies in some
form or fashion. It that's that's your description of of these branches as well, right? So we don't confuse anybody
out there that's made a lot to do about these branches. >> Yeah. And I will say I mean law
enforcement was open to the possibility that their initial hunch was incorrect. They did seek out expertise from one
expert in sort of Norse runes. And what the guy said was these aren't runes. I mean, like what I'm looking at, if I
basically throw out a bunch of sticks in my yard and I invite you guys over and for some reason you come and you're
like, "What's going on?" And I say, "Can you read my name in these sticks?" Maybe
you say, "Well, that kind of looks like an A and that one off by itself kind of looks like an I, but the rest of it
doesn't." You know, it's like you letters have to be in certain shapes in order to spell something. And and these
just weren't. So it it it doesn't look so much like someone's purposely placing sticks as it does someone just hastily
putting sticks over bodies in the attempt to conceal. And I I think that's what was clear early on and they were
open to other things, but an expert told them, "Hey, this doesn't spell anything.
These aren't runes." So I at some point you have to let that go. >> Yeah. It's it's not the same as graffiti
or writing pig and blood on the wall at a murder scene. The these branches are really like looking at clouds in the
sky. It's open to interpretation and it it it's of no meaning at all. The alarm bells have to be going off
immediately with the finding of this bullet in large part due to the caliber because 40 caliber is not a common law
enforcement caliber of gun that that most members men and women in law enforcement carry. So immediately this
has to be even prior I'm guessing to to finding and viewing the footage on the phone and hearing the audio on the
phone. This this bullet is significant right out the gate. >> Yes. They feel like this bullet could
end up tying whoever we're looking for to this crime scene. And it also gave them the indication. I think early
analysis indicated that they might be looking for a sig sour weapon. So, they had a sense and they were going to test
every weapon against this thing, but I think they had a sense of we might kind of know the type of gun we're looking
for. >> And the importance of the bullet also kind of explains why so much about the
details of the crime scene were kept secret for years. Because investigators realize that if we put out, oh, we
recovered a bullet from the crime scene and we feel we can tie it to a gun. If the killer reads that or hears that on
television, obviously the first thing he's going to do is he's going to get rid of his gun. Mhm.
>> So it became very important to keep that and some of these details a secret from
the public which did have the tendency to inspire a lot of conspiracy theorizing and confusion.
>> And I'm going to I'm going to not lie like we were I feel kind of like we were
overly harsh on law enforcement cuz we were definitely a voice saying, "Hey, why don't you release more details?
What's going on?" You know, like let us know. you know, you have to use the public to help you solve this case. And
honestly, if they'd taken our advice, especially around the cartridge and the bullet, I I don't know if this case
would have gotten solved. I think it was important that they did not release anything around that. And that that
bullet detail never leaked. That never came out. And I think, you know, that shows how important it was. But we were
we were definitely people who were like, "Release stuff." And now I'm kind of like, "No, I think I think they did the
right thing here." which which is incredible considering all the other cases you guys
have reviewed and cases we've reviewed. You take one that just had some big break, the yogurt shop, they had 13
pieces of holdback information and every one of them managed to leak their way out even before they arrested and tried
Springsteen and Michael Scott. Mhm. >> And so it's not something that's easy to do, especially when you have so many
different law enforcement agencies involved. There was a lot of cooks in the kitchen for this one, and they
managed to keep that detail, as you said, perfectly secret to the point that the killer was dumb enough to keep his
gun all of that time. The the one thing that would truly tie him to the murders [Music]
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this case, was there a turning point for you? And and this question is for both of you.
Was there a turning point of I I'm just interested or fascinated with this case to to the moment where you go I I need
to get involved? >> That's a great question. I think this case was for me sort of like being a
frog boiled in water, you know, if someone had just thrown me in in the middle of trial. And I will commend some
some folks came in uh from YouTube and and different podcasts and they were able to just jump in and go with it and
they did a great job. But for me, I think I would have been like, "Get me out of here." I I think it was so
chaotic and it was so depressing and sad and heartbreaking. But I think for me it
was like we started getting into it and then it just morphed into more of an obsession in a way because we were like
we cannot let this go. we have to keep reporting on it and try to get answers. And I think at some point we just
crossed that threshold perhaps without re realizing it. We never really wanted to get involved because we never wanted
to be part of the story. Although unfortunately that did happen kind of against our will, but we we knew we were
going to be involved in in the sense of covering it for a long time. And there were a couple times there would be so
much drama and you'd be like, I don't want to cover this anymore. And we always kept coming back cuz it was like
we felt we had a duty to say say what was going on, I guess. >> And I also think as time passed and we
got to know the families better and got to know the city of Deli better and just
to see how this affected all of them. It became in some way personal that we really did very much want to see justice
done and we wanted to share the story of how that happened. Well, and in some ways, you guys became an your podcast
became an authority on the case because, like you said, you wanted more information to come out. Why are you
holding back so much information? You do. The longer an investigation drags on, I think it's just human nature to
start to wonder, are these are these guys able to solve this thing? Is this is this above their heads? I think
that's just natural. But you guys sort of became a an authority on the case because while this there was information
out there that was public information, the public didn't know about it, right? So you were able to release information
about this case that otherwise was going unnoticed. >> Yeah, we were able to get that and we
were able to get some trust from members of the communities affected and they were able to give us more information.
And so it kind of was a positive feedback cycle where we would do some reporting and people would kind of fill
in and we'd be able to do more reporting and and that was nice. And I think it kind of shows that the community
members, you know, did want to continue to put information out there. I think with law enforcement, they were they
were very much not leaking to us and not interested in in having those conversations. And I understand that,
you know, and we understood it at the time, too. But it was one of those things where I think they were more of
like why why are you like why do you want to cover it in such depth you know and we had to explain to them it's
because there is a strong public interest people want to see what's happening so I think over time they came
to understand where we were coming from too and they they respected that and they understood that even though we were
criticizing them at times we were trying to be fair about it we weren't just trying to say oh they're corrupt or
they're evil or they're incompetent. We were just, you know, we were speaking based on what we knew and trying to be
as fair as possible. >> Yeah. And it they were listening. I didn't realized this at the time because
the prosecutors and the police couldn't really talk to us because there was a gag order in place. They weren't talking
to us, but they we were talking to them through the podcast without knowing it because people would be sending them
clips of things we'd said on the show, either positive or negative. And not just us, they'd send them clips of your
show and other programs and we didn't realize that. And so when it came to the point where we were able to do
interviews with some of these people, I remember for instance I was sitting down
and Ana was with me of course we were talking with prosecutor Nicholas Mleland and I said oh you know some people were
pretty critical of you over the secrecy and he just waited a beat and said yeah Kevin you were I I heard the clips
>> and I remember too we were talking with one of the investigators on the case and
he was like people in his department would send him, you know, stuff and they'd be like, "Well, I think I know
more about your case than you do because I listen to the murder sheet." And so he
was like, "Uh, like," so I think they were maybe a little annoyed with us at times. But, um, I think they understood
that we were trying to be fair and I think they understood that with time, like, you know, you guys did some great
coverage. The prosecutors did some great coverage on their show. I think they understood that all of these people are
just trying to inform the public at the end of the day and we don't we don't mean harm and you can't say that for
everybody in podcasting or YouTube but but there that there were shows that were trying to do a good job and I think
they they understood that for at least for at least some of us. Do you think the coverage from podcasters and
YouTubers helped the case ultimately or do you think it hindered the case? >> I think that's a great question and I
think it it really just depends on the show. And I think for the most part it didn't necessarily affect things either
way. I'd say for for our show people sometimes thank us. They're like, "Thank you so much. I I think you you helped
solve the case." And we have to be like, "We didn't do anything. We truly did not
help solve the case. Our show did not have an impact. It hopefully kept the public informed, but we don't deserve
any credit as far as an outcome. And I think that is where shows did shine where they could keep the public
informed. I know at the Clue Awards at Crime Con, Mike Patty, Libbyy's grandfather, ended up thanking
podcasters and and people who were covering it in the media because he said that kept the story alive. So, in terms
of continuing to make it clear to everyone that Libby and Abby were important and that we all wanted to see
this case solved, I think that's a benefit. And as far as hurting the case, I think in some instances there were
attempts to hurt the case or misinform the public, but that was probably more specific shows doing that. So, I think
it was kind of across the board and it depends on what we're talking about, but for the most part, I think it was
probably a neutral to positive impact. >> I would agree with that. >> Yeah. I often wonder because of the
podcasters, because of the YouTubers that created also media coverage, I would see you guys on the news often.
And you just kind of wonder that puts some pressure on law enforcement and maybe they wouldn't have gone back and
double checked their work and maybe would be sitting here with the case still not solved after all these years.
>> I thought that for a time, too. But meeting those investigators, I think on some level they were as obsessed with it
as all of us were. I think they were really emotionally locked in in a way that almost surprised me because you're
talking about all these like veteran law enforcement guys and they're also, you know, Midwestern, middle-aged men for
the most part. And when we finally sat down to interview them for the book, a lot of them were like crying because
like I think Abby and Libby just came to mean a lot to them. So I I feel like I for a long time thought, okay, we need
to keep the pressure up because otherwise they might just ditch the case. Although maybe maybe that's
possible in the macro sense, but just having met some of them, I I think they were in it for for as long as it was
going to take. and and perhaps it was helpful for them because it, you know, ensured that higherups knew, hey, this
is really important and the public wants to see movement on this. So maybe maybe
it did help with resources and giving them the space to do it. But yeah, it was it was it was interesting to finally
meet some of these people. >> And I don't think I'm giving away any secrets when I say Ana and I have had
talks with both of you in real life about this case. And in those conversations,
you could tell that all of us were really obsessed with finding answers and we really cared deeply about this case.
And when you feel that way about a case, you can recognize it when you're talking
with someone else who feels about the case. And what the obsession and the compassion for the victims and the
desire for justice that I felt coming from both of you was very very similar to what I felt coming from these
investigators. I will also add that is something I do love about Nick's book on deli because I know we're talking about
our book, but I felt like Nick's book you captured the for lack of a better term vibe of why everyone is so obsessed
with this case because it it becomes almost and I thought your book again captured this really well. It becomes
almost like a personal mission and not every case has that effect and it's not that every case isn't important. All of
all of them are important, I think, and and deserve attention. It's just there's
something about Deli that makes everyone feel if I can just dig a little harder,
I might be able to get somewhere. And that that was what sucked a lot of people in. I think that's partly what
sucked us in. And it was Yeah. I mean, it it just it kind of takes over your life for a lot of people.
>> Well, this is going to turn into just one big love fest here because compliments all around the room, all
around the garage today. One thing I loved about your guys's coverage of the case when it was ongoing before Richard
Allen was identified and then after and this carried over to the book and that's what makes the book so good,
right? If you like Anya, if you like Kevin, if you love the murder sheet, you're instantly going to love this book
because it's an extension of all of the work that you guys have done on that. And the thing that I loved about your
guys' work on this case was even as as passionate and as obsessed as you may have become at certain times, you manage
to stay as level-headed as one can in the moment, but you you also don't pull any punches, right? You you guys I love
that you call people out when they deserve to be called out and you do that on the show and you do it in the book.
And I think that that's one thing that sets you guys apart, that you're able to do that in a way that is also fair and
level-headed. >> That Thank you. That means a lot. We we tried it and sometimes we didn't feel
levelheaded, but we we tried to maintain some kind of fairness and balance throughout.
>> And I I think I've been very lucky in that regard because I'm married to a wonderful person to work with on this.
Anya has journalistic background that I really really rely on. I really rely on her judgment and her expertise and a lot
of the positive things that you've just said I feel are really attributable to her and I just feel very very lucky not
only to be married to her but to be working with her. >> A thank you Kevin. I didn't force him to
say that by the way. That was all organic. Hey, Kevin, blink twice if you're being
held against your will. >> He just blinked 365 times. >> Oh my good. Well, and you know, on I
don't know about behind the scenes on your guys' end, but on our end, you're absolutely right. We got we got up in
our feelings about this case plenty of times and there were a handful of times that we are microphones off in a
disagreement about the case or the investigation or what's going on with it trying to read too much between the
lines and more than once we had to look at each other and go what's going on here. You know, you didn't kill him. Uh
you don't know who did it. I don't know who did it. What you know, what are we getting all worked up here for? It's
it's a case that drew so many people in and so many people had very loud voices.
Some of them should not have had a loud voice at all. Uh but it was a case that that drew so many folks in. And as you
say, I think that the good podcasters and the and the good YouTube shows that were doing it correctly and that carried
themselves with a level of integrity in a way I think helped the overall encompassing story because I think it
did manage to keep some of the public at bay and keep them keep them a little more reserved because there were people
that were going off the rails here and saying some crazy [ __ ] [ __ ] that just wasn't even wasn't
plausible, wasn't practical, wasn't in the realm of reality. And one thing when we th this shows the the level of class
of the Patties, you guys just you guys just came to and witnessed your first Crime Con this this
last year, and we were so glad to see you guys there. You're natural fit. You should have been there the whole time.
But in 2018 and Kelsey the first one, >> Kelsey Libbyy's older sister talks about
this in Susan Hendrick's book Down the Hill, how she was in a very dark place in a world of hurt. Of course, why
wouldn't she be? Until she there was the healing sort of started for her, as she says in in Susan Hendricks's book
at the Nashville 2018 Crime Con. What is still very difficult for me to wrap my my head and heart around is that in
2018, Mike and Becky Patty come up to the True Crime Garage table. They go way out of their way. They've just
experienced the most horrific tragedy anybody could possibly ever experience. And they come up to us and say, "Thank
you guys for covering Libby and Aby's case and and keeping the case and getting it out there." And it just I I
told them, I don't know if I would have the strength to to do what you guys just
did, to go out of your way and and and say something so nice to to some some folks that that you you've never met.
and and we are retelling your tragedy over and over again. And I what was so one thing that I think was lost on a lot
of folks out there was what these families had gone through and then their names to be smeared on
the internet daily was just sick and it was perverse and disgusting. And yet they they walked and carried themselves.
And talk about the folks that helped them. I I I think there's they it it's weird. I said this in my book that I
think in some weird strange way Mike and Becky Patty taught all of us how to handle and how to live with something
that they had to experience firsthand. And I know you've guys had a had a lot of interaction with them, but talk about
them. talk about uh talk about Doug Carter as well because I he's a big part of this story.
>> Absolutely. And yeah, I know I know they appreciated so much of this podcast coverage and that was you know as you
said we felt uncomfortable too because it's like we are making a podcast about your guys's personal tragedy, but they
had so much grace. >> They had so much grace. They're remarkable people. Uh, I want to say
something that Becky did that just astonished me. As you indicated a moment ago, they got a lot of unwarranted grief
on the internet. There would be people online saying, "These people killed these girls." Becky Patty was involved.
Kelsey was involved. Just awful, vile things without a shred of truth to them. And some of the people who were saying
that online came to the trial and would wait in line at the trial to get in. And
Becky Patty more than once she would look at these people in line and think they're here because they care about the
girls. And she would bring the people in line food. and she would go and she would look right in the eyes of some of
these people, including people who had accused her of murder and she would give them freshly baked banana bread just out
of the kindness of her heart. And I don't understand how she was able to do that, but I have so much respect for
her. >> I told her, Becky, I would be throwing the banana bread in the pan at some of
these people's heads based on what they were doing. and she was like, "Well, you
I mean, she's she's just a very genuinely nice person. She's a lot nicer than I could ever be in a situation like
that." But I I felt like that was something that was remarkable to us. And and they they taught us, too. I mean, we
had the same thing where, you know, we we had to learn to how to communicate with, you know, victim's families in a
way that would inform them and keep them feeling like we were giving them that information and sort of like passing
that on to them in a way that they felt comfortable with, right? Because I mean,
it's like we're trying to break news, but we we had to always keep in mind that it's not just news to two families,
it's their lives. How do you balance gathering the news and trying to report on that with ensuring you're not doing
harm or or hurting people who care deeply about this because it's literally their lives. So, they were very patient
with us and that was something that we always strive to honor was our relationship with them in terms of
saying we're going to we're going to respect you. we're going to um be compassionate and we're going to ensure
that you get this information and that we explain to you why we think it's newsworthy. So, that was helpful to us,
too. >> Doug Carter, of course, the former superintendent of the Indiana State Police. If you follow this case at all,
you've probably seen him on television talking about the case. And he always speaks with such emotion that I'll admit
at the very beginning I I was cynical and thought, "Oh, he must be putting on a show." But when you see him behind the
scenes, when there's no cameras present, there's just as much emotion there. And
when you talk with people who work with him, they say, "This is just Doug Carter. He feels things very, very
deeply. He's a very very sensitive and caring man to an extraordinary extent. >> And I want to say this about Doug Carter
because I thought this I I think I I don't know. I think he should write a book on leadership or something because
the choices he made with this case were ultimately about protecting his team. And by his team, I mean his men on the
Indiana State Police who were working this case, but I also mean like the overall team of Deli, which also
included people from other agencies. And to me, it seemed like when he was doing
things like getting up there and doing a press conference and being the voice and
being more of the face, he was providing them a level of cover where they could do the work they needed to do and he
could basically take the public scrutiny. and he would do things like all of the detectives in the beginning
were like working around the clock just working themselves to the bone on this case and he at some point went to one of
them Jerry Holman who was one of the kind of leaders for the state police on this case and was just like you know I
think Holman had been you know he and his wife had been scheduled to go to a concert prior to all this going on but
he's like I'm just going to blow that off and Carter was just no, you're going. And like sent him a car to go
because he was trying to reinforce to them, you have to take care of yourselves and you have to take care of
your team members because we're in this for the long haul. This is a marathon, not a sprint. And if everyone burns out,
you're not going to solve it. You're not going to be able to do anything. So, I think he he led by example. He was such
an impressive person. And you know, when he was when he was okay with writing our
introduction, we were just we were delighted and we were really honored by that cuz we knew how important this was
to him. >> But back to the banana bread, in fairness, I think Becky put laxatives in
it. >> Becky's revenge. I would not blame her. Is is is there something that you have
learned with this deep dive into this case that you will you will take forward into other deep dives into other cases?
>> Yes. For me, it's a sense of humility because there were so many times where Kevin and I would be looking in from the
outside and we would make an assumption and it's not like we would even report on it. we would just have it in our
hearts. We'd make an assumption or we would think the wrong thing or we wouldn't have a grasp on how things
really worked behind the scenes. And I think going forward, I'm just going to be a lot more comfortable saying, "Hey,
I literally don't know what's happening and I'm not going to assume anything and
we're just going to try to dig into this and then I'll start kind of coming to some conclusions." I think it's just
there's no prize for being first when it comes to thinking up something. And in this case, again, as I mentioned, you
know, we were pretty hard on them for not sharing more information. And turns out we were totally wrong about that.
So, I think stuff like that, I'm not going to be as quick to form an assumption because it's like I've never
worked in law enforcement. I've never worked as a prosecutor. That's another example. Uh we were extremely critical
of prosecutor Nicholas Mleland in this because we were like he's hiding the PCA and you know transparency and all that
and like I understand where we were coming from but he had some pretty good reasons for doing what he was doing and
we also were like listen he's a young guy he's you know not he's not really had any really high-profile big cases
yet. Is he ready for this? And then when we saw him in action I mean he was more
than ready. He was amazing. So, you know, I think we we will just try to check our assumptions. We always do when
it comes to trying to report things fairly, but I think even just internally, I might just sort of say,
let's just see how this plays out. And I think there is something extraordinary in the world when you have a situation
where the absolute worst of humanity, the absolute worst things we are capable of as a species exist side by side with
the absolute best of people. This murder, what Richard Allen did, was horrible and that can be overwhelming.
But there's also stories like Becky Patty giving the banana bread. Anya just mentioned Nicholas Mleen. This is an
attorney. His his dream in life is to become a judge. And during the course of this case, he has not one but two
opportunities to become a judge. And when he gets the second one, he even goes to the families and says, "I hate
to do it, but I have to think of my future. I'm gonna I'm gonna resign the prosecutor and become a judge. And they
give him their blessing. But he finds that he can't walk away from the case because he cares about it so much. He
just has such a deep feeling of connection to these girls that he gives up his dream perhaps forever in order to
work to do the right thing and get justice for these girls. And so there is something just very special about things
like that. And I'm always going to try in the future when reporting on some terrible cases to remember that and to
look for the heroism and the grace that also exists within these cases. >> Yeah. Like people like Lieutenant
Holman. This is a guy who's worked as, you know, worked in law enforcement for years. He took this case extremely
personally. I feel like he was the glue that held this group together in terms of what they doing what they needed to
do to stick with it and continue the case. And I know it it stressed him out a lot. I mean, this was something that
aided him for years, but he stuck with it. There's people like Tony Liot. He's now the sheriff of Carroll County. He he
knows what it's like to experience this tragedy to a certain extent. He lost his
teenage son in a in a really horrifying car wreck years ago. And so he was able to bring some of that empathy and he's
the first to note, hey, it's it's different when it's murder, but he he does know the loss of a child. H there's
people like Dave Veto, right? He's very young detective who comes onto this case
and he gets assigned along with some other detectives. They have to look into this really horrible child predator and
and there's stuff that they had to see with that part of the investigation that they'll never unsee. But they stuck with
it. People like Brian Harshman who had to listen to this guy's calls in prison all the time. I mean, all of these
people lost something. The two prosecutors who helped Mleland, Stacy Deiner and James Leil, they did an
amazing job. They they came into this and basically volunteered themselves to help him with it. And I I think that is
I mean the one that really stands out to me though um you know, all these people
stand out to me, but the one that really comes to mind is Kathy Shank. She's a woman who was like the CPS agent of
Carol County for years. Like her whole thing is protecting children and she's this like tiny little lady, but she's
also like a badass because I mean she was just doing this incredible work. You know, I think law enforcement locally
was like pretty intimidated by her cuz you know she was going to come in and she was going to tell you what needed to
happen. So, she volunteered her time with helping these investigators organize their files and be a
receptionist when they had people come in with tips. And she's ultimately the one who found the lead on Richard Allen
and brought it to their attention. And she's a remarkable person cuz she will not take any credit for that. But she
she's somebody who um I think is a hero because she was just doing this out of the kindness of her heart to help the
investigation. And I think people like that are what Kevin's talking about when we talk about the best of humanity.
[Music]

Shadow of the Bridge /// Part 1 /// 878

Part 1 of 2

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This week we are very excited to have our friends from the Murder Sheet Podcast joining us in the Garage. The Murder Sheet podcast is hosted by journalist Aine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee. The show explores many cases but over the years has had a heavy focus on the Burger Chef Murders and the Delphi Murders. In late August 2025 Aine and Kevin released their Pegasus Crime published book - The Shadow of the Bridge: the Delphi murders and the dark side of the American heartland. They have joined us to talk all things Delphi.

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Brief Summary

Ana Kaine and Kevin Greenley discuss the Deli Murders, their book, and the impact of true crime media on investigations.

Key points

The Deli Murders: A Community's Heartbreak. Two teenage girls go missing, leading to a community-wide search and a tragic discovery.
The Shadow of the Bridge. The title of a new book reflects the haunting nature of the Deli murders.
The Chilling Audio. A recording reveals the abductor's voice and the fear of the girls.
The Significance of the Bullet. The bullet found at the crime scene could tie the suspect to the crime.
Secrecy and Strategy. Law enforcement kept key details secret to avoid alerting the suspect.
The Emotional Connection. As time passed, the podcasters felt a personal connection to the victims' families.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

This is going to be solved quickly.

Reflecting on the initial optimism about the case

5:12WatchOct 14, 2025

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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