Photo 509 /// Part 2 /// 257 | Forensic Files

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[Music] [Applause] % [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
for listening I'm your host Nick and my co-host is a guy that's attending a time
travel event two weeks ago he is the captain let me just say I'm baffled by the technology it's good to be seen and
good to see you thanks for listening thanks for T of [Music] friend we are drinking Brew free or Dye
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Facebook all that stuff at True Crime garage and that is enough of the business all right Captain remind me to
thank you later everybody gather around grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some
true crime [Music] [Music] all right let's get back to this fascinating case well Captain I
know that we've talked a little bit about the photos that would have been found later on the digital camera that
was found inside the backpack mhm and we've talked about this a little bit but we've not gone into great detail now I
do want to throw something out there because most of the reports that I could find in in you know I reference The
Daily Beast yesterday they have really the most comprehensive report on this case there are a lot of very what I'm
guessing are thorough and detailed accounts of of these reports online but they a lot of those
are Dutch you know so it makes it tough for us garage people to figure out and how to read those so we're not fluent in
the Dutch yeah so we went with the Daily Beast for um I did anyway for most of my
research the one thing that I call into a question regarding The Daily Beast that was a little confusing to me is
those reports as well as others that I found state that the digital timestamp on the
camera on the memory it was working okay okay but where I called that into question
is we have a situation where the early photos and this will make more sense if you're unclear about this case uh it'll
make more sense as we get into it but the early photos those when we say hey what time did they get to the summit
what time did they get to the top the the mirror uh the guess is that it's around
100 p.m. and that's based off of the position of the sun and there the location the known location of the women
mhm when we look at the later photos we get more we get more detailed information with these and what I mean
by that is timestamps right I don't understand why some of the same reports reference two
different things the position of the sun with the early photos and then later the
time stamps with another so I very confusing there and I I'm not I don't mean to confuse anyone but I want to
throw that out there because should we find ourselves in a situ ation where people were calling into question the
information I just want to be clear on how it was presented and what was found out there so I found statements stating
that the camera's memory it was preserved and that the digital timestamp worked so according to that
investigators could tell exactly what photo was taken and when right so this of course assuming that the time stamp
is correct we've done so many cases where we're talking about surveillance footage in it's off an hour right um the
the camera itself was not equipped with GPS capabilities as we said yesterday it
was retrieved intact and there were 100 plus photos on it that were still available to investigators now
approximately 12 photos these were taken on the day that the women were hiking that they hiked the Pista up the way to
the to the crest during the day on April 1st well like we said there was some selfies and there was a couple pictures
of each other taking pictures of their friend the last image from that day is of Chris standing on a rock looking as
though she's about to Traverse a small stream mhm it is sunny she does not appear to be in distress although now we
know that the women were not heading in the direction that they should have been
right they're heading the opposite direction we don't know exactly what time this photo was taken but we do know
that both women tried to call uh 112 after 400 p.m. that day so what happened in those roughly 3 hours between the
crest of the divide and the emergency calls or in the even smaller window between the last photo of Chris and the
calls well what we do know is that it gets dark very early here so it's going to get dark around 400 p.m. well it it
should start getting darker in the jungle around that time the sunset would have been 6:40 p.m. on that day so then
we have seven days later this is what I was referencing earlier where we have the earlier photos and then we have the
later photos we have roughly 12 pictures that are taken of the two women on the day that they're hiking on April 1st
right it's not until 7 Days Later that another photo was taken and Incredibly there were 90 Plus photos taken on the
camera in the middle of the night on April 8th a week after the women went missing and most of those pictures don't
make sense to either you or I and that's and that's why a lot of people speculate
that they're using the cameras flash as a way to see where they're going right and and I I apologize for laughing when
you were were talking there Captain but in all honesty you know most of the photos I say I think I think all of them
don't make sense to me right and I think because they don't make sense to me that
I find it eerie and I find it extremely creepy that that they don't make any sense and like you said it could be
something as simple as somebody using the flash of the camera to try to see in the middle of the night maybe they're
making their way on a trail maybe they're hearing something yeah and at some point you're going to see there's a
couple pictures of the back of one of the girls' heads and I would argue it's not a picture to show the the damage
really that it could have been well uh I think something's wrong with my head I think I hit my head and and the friend
saying okay well let me uh use the flash to see if I can see anything right right
also you could then look back at the camera to to view the pictures so to see okay well let me take a picture of it
let me see what's wrong with your head head but again you can't tell is it a person taking a picture of the back of
their is she taking a picture of the back of her head herself or is her friend taking the picture of the back of
her head okay well let's give a good uh good representation of these photos so the the people that have never seen any
of these can get an idea of what we're talking about here so seven days later 90 Plus photos taken
on the camera in the middle of the night April 8th right all of these photos appear to have been taken in the pitch
dark of night most of them only Seconds Apart using the Flash and they were taken over a 2 plus hour period the last
one was taken at 3:22 a.m. furthermore all the photos appear to have been taken from approximately the same spot you
know the photographer was not moving around more than a few meters right so what do these pictures show when when
viewed as a whole The Daily Beast says the photos seem to have some kind of pattern although they are all eerie and
Overexposed due to the flash in the in the Blackness all of the photos were taken in a steep jungle environment a
dozen or more of these photos are of a long range they're like hard to make out images and we see some close-up well-lit
images as well now the close-up welllet images are as follows there's a a single
photo of a bloody Temple area okay this is other people's words not not the Colonel's words here a single photo of a
blood bloody Temple area on what appears to be Chris's head this is based off of
the hair color right now the scary thing about this photo is it's not known whether she was alive when this photo
was taken it doesn't show us enough stuff for us to formulate a whole opinion and Theory off of what's seen or
what's available in that photo mhm then another photo would show a crude possibly a crude Direction marker made
out of tiny sticks and little pieces of of orange plastic now this many have speculated about what this is pieces of
some think it to be pieces from a plastic bag or even gum wrappers laid out on a large flat topped uh Boulder in
the background of this picture behind the boulder some believe that an enhanced version
shows that the markers might be pointing toward a in a straight line across the terrain to a possible monkey Bridge
remember we talked about those monkey Bridges yesterday a boulder another one shows a boulder or other rock surface
type thing uh with what appears to be paper or toilet tissue some have speculated that that
this might might be a possible attempt to spell something mhm and others point out that there is a rusty mirror in the
center of the letters to who knows what this is for could this be for to reflect
the flash of the light um look you you talked about the possibility of using the flash to be
able to see uh along a trail or maybe to see something in the jungle for whatever
reason others have speculated that could they have been using one or one or two of the women using the flash to Signal
something signal a helicopter searching for them or to Signal people searching in the jungle for them yeah I mean
that's very possible some of the shots appear to be looking downward into a Ravine and in one of them in particular
looking down into maybe a canyon Below in this particular particular photo there is a blurry object on the ground
and this is in the background and some believe some have stated that they think that that's a body the blurry object
there the tricky thing here Captain is on the we know from weather reports that there were several heavy rains in the
middle of the night on the 8th so given that time period we know these were taken in the middle of the
night could the rain drop have made it difficult for the camera to pick up images at a distance you know things
that maybe they could see with whoever's shooting these photos that they could see with their eyes that the camera just
simply isn't picking up for some reason yeah or were they hearing things and trying to use the light to see what
they're hearing or the light to scare something off if it's an animal like one of those monkeys or now so what's up
with these pictures is what everybody is talking about the thing I want to know is why would someone go for seven days
between photographs and then take a series of photos in the middle of the night using the flash all from the same
spot well maybe they're using other sources to light their way mhm such as their phones or but we have the we have
the log of the information of their phones they're not being turned on they're being shut off mhm or their
watch or I'm just saying I I I don't know I mean it's the whole thing is confusing yes yes it's it's very
confusing that some people have wondered if if this was an attempt to hint at their location you know like things are
super dire at this point they've been missing for a week right take some photos of where we last were or where I
last was because there might only be one of them left at this point right depending on what has happened is this
an attempt for someone to mark their location or is it an attempt to Mark the location where Chris uh died or was
incapacitated and I say Chris because we have that picture possible picture of the bloody Temple right I also wonder
I'm assuming this camera has the capability of also taking video so that's where then I wonder if you're
trying to leave answers for when somebody finds your belongings why don't you just toss on the video camera and
say hey this is where I'm at this is what happened I mean you see that in what's that movie 127
Hours he does the same thing puts his camera on him and basically says goodbye right so why wasn't that done if
that was the intent right I don't know if it was able to take video most most cameras nowadays
are um so I would assume that it was and that feature for for whatever reason if
it was available was not not used the other thing too is their we do know their phones you know you and I are more
familiar with their phones than this particular camera we know their phones would have had the ability to film a
video and that obviously was not done with the the phones right and again though it could be no power to the
phones right obviously too though we see an effort to conserve the battery of the
phone and yeah everybody knows shoot a video with your phone will drain the battery probably faster than just about
anything else yeah but then it also makes you just wonder did they come upon somebody or were they
being Guided by somebody and once they're dead are they messing with their stuff and messing with the
camera or were they dead and somebody Came Upon them right and found their belongings afterwards decide to power up
the phone on the 11th take some pictures on the eth right the the the strange thing to me though is we see a similar
Behavior with both with all three of these items right we have the phones that are used for days from the up until
the 6th and then then not used again until the 11th and then with the camera we have the camera being used on the
first and then not used again until the eth it just seems like a strange pattern
of behavior whether it's done intentionally done by one of the women or both or someone else right it's it's
done by somebody we can we can agree with that there may be a a glitch I will go with a glitch more likely on the
phone these photos were taken by somebody right okay so there was a glitch that took uh 90 pictures Well I
and I say you know and I know it sounds silly to say there was no glitch that took 90 pictures but furthermore on that
is we have this aspect because I I had I did read somebody speculate that like okay let's say the one of the girls had
the one of the women had the phone um not the phone the camera on her person and passed away expired from from any
number of reasons all right MH could could an animal have come up and been messing with the body and
accidentally bumped the phone or causing you know bump right sorry I keep saying
phone when I mean to say camera right but at that point you're getting into crazy speculation because what you're
getting into is that uh one of the individuals passed away the camera was on her an animal comes up accidentally
hits these photos that are taken at all different angles so the not only does the the animal take the pictures but it
moves the camera in 90 different ways and then magically the camera gets back into the book bag right that's I mean
that's just too much speculation not too much speculation it's [ __ ] impossible I mean sorry to put it I
can't put it any more politely oh Jesus somebody's somebody's got the dirty mouth I'm not going to lie to you I was
actually pissed off that I that I read someone's thoughts about that happening that way like whatever so anyway and
what here's what we do know and this is real stuff so the investigators with the
help of guides they're like they were actually able to pinpoint exactly where some of these mysterious photos were
taken right or at least the ones that show the markers on the rock that were calling those directional markers if in
fact that's what they are I actually think uh law enforcement called those the emergency markers okay so and and
they basically were able to find the exact location the exact Rock where that photo was taken so this site is about 3
miles straight downhill from Boke the town where they were going to stay this is on the Western Bank of a tributary
that feeds into that Big River there so this is about 12 hours by foot from the trail that they were on Now the shorts
were supposedly found in the river right near where these photos were taken or they you know folded up neatly placed
inside the river there um and a few kilometers Upstream from where the backpack washed up or was placed right
it is also about 2 km Upstream from where the first of the body parts was found so nearby are several abandoned
noi Huts that the women might have spotted and possibly could have even used as makeshift shelters before they
met their Fates right so and from this spot had they been able to continue along the river following the trail
Through the Jungle they would have got to the noi Village before too long so what this what what this means is if in
fact one of the women was taking these pictures or both of them and if one or both of them made it to where their
belongings made it to they did possibly have shelter and they weren't very far away from other people right the the big
question in this whole deal Captain is really I think we're left with two very simple explanations as to what happened
we either have an accident that you know that these women died and expired because of an accident
or they met with Foul Play [Music] somehow this show is sponsored by better help do
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[Music] today [Music] cheers mates cheers Captain let's get into the possibilities here accident or
Foul Play Because let's start with accident well I want to give a shout out real quick a big cheers to all the
veterans that Serve and Protect US yes want give it a little cheers as I'm drinking and thoughts and prayers with
everybody in California hang in there um so if everyone analyzing the photos left on the Canon camera if they are
correct from what I found it seems that for whatever reason they all believe that the two women decided to deviate
from the trail that they were traveling on that day and proceeded down the other
side of the Divide right it makes you wonder when they're looking this stuff up online cuz we know that they did
right mhm that did they see something where they go oh well we can go past for example I was in Hawaii once and there
was a trail called the road to Hana and the whole thing was once you got to Hana
that you would turn around right but there was also a couple miles of a unfinished road
that you could take and loop back around and I decided to take the unpaved UN you
know finished Road there you go so is there something that they saw that was like well once you get to the summit
point you can go a little bit further to see whatever right and that maybe it wasn't that they were going to that they
willy-nilly got lost but they just also didn't understand that the darkness was going to be falling on them around 4:00
in the jungle so did they get a little bit too F did they get a little too far out and then decide oh we made a mistake
AK well I so what most people suggest is that okay we have the first 112 call attempt was shortly after 4:30 p.m. on
that day still daylight at this time but it's probably pretty dark in the jungle
then well sunsets at 6:40 p.m. on on April 1st so whatever you know take that information for what it is we're not in
the jungle broadcasting here today no so many people believe that this call was likely placed because one of the women
had been hurt in some kind of accident that's what I have seen online that's what the Reddit people seem to think
that an accident occurred around this time and that's why the first 112 call attempt was made at 430 p.m. perhaps a
fall some kind of twisted ankle I mean any number of injuries broke her ankle imagination yes yeah so the problem I
have with this thought and Theory I'm not saying it's impossible I'm not saying that it's unlikely but what I'm
saying is I think that later evidence might prove or or at least suggest that it's more likely this was not the
situation and what I mean by that is their belongings their remains they found a good distance from this location
so let's say that they traveled um walking distance 3 hours roughly by the time they make that first
attempt to 112 well walking distance they're found like 12 hours from where we know they
were happy and alive right so that's another 9 hours walking distance right and if you snapped your ankle then you
might not be making it that far yes I think what might be more likely at 4:30 p.m. is that maybe they realized they
had become lost right and I think that there's a good chance that maybe they didn't realize that they were lost until
like 3 hours into the hike back mhm because look and like I said earlier I'm not I'm not an experienced hiker I'm not
a well experienced hiker but I do know this I've been out plenty of times where I'm hiking I'm camping I'm out in the
wilderness and I'm walking on Trails a lot of the stuff looks the same you know and if you didn't take
really good mental note of things on your way up you may have simply just gone on the
wrong trail thinking you were just returning down on the same trail that you had come up maybe you got turned
around while you were up at the top there right you started down the wrong way I think haven't all of us been there
where we're traveling down the trail and we go it might be a half hour 45 minutes
an hour into it and you're going I'm starting to getting the feeling like I haven't like maybe I went the wrong way
yes but what do we do most of us just continue on going because we're like ah like I'm probably wrong well I haven't
hiked Trails like this but I've I've done a lot of hiking and like parks and stuff and like you said some of the
trails you go somewhere and then you come back but most of them there's some kind of loop around even if you get to
the end and it's just a circle that Loops you back to the path you just on that lets you know hey oh well [ __ ] this
one didn't loop around I have to go back the way I came but some of the trails they just
loop back around so there's there's been times I've been on trail that we did two
or three loops and I'm like man this Trail is long and they're like what are you talking about we finished the trail
three times right and I'm like oh but that's also you know you probably shouldn't drink a lot of beers before
you go hiking but so now you're in this area that has way more trees and they're
in the jungle man right that's I mean that's the most simple way to put it yeah and I just again again is it that
wrong to think that maybe there was some reason that they were going to go a little further than what the initial
hike is supposed to be and they just got lost and this is just a it was a mistake
and it's a very tragic way to die but you know there's really no evidence of a crime here so far right so far and the
thing is though too you know this is these are not hallways you know we're not talking about always it's not like a
situation where you're you're walking for an hour hour and a half two hours even and you go shoot I think I've gone
the wrong way I'll just turn around and and go back right you know we're talking
about who knows the number of trails that are going on this other side here and what I mean by that is how many
times even if I figured out finally that I've gone the wrong direction mhm how many times do I come to a fork in the
road a fork in the path on that trail trying to return get back to the the correct Trail and have to choose a
direction did I go left here did I go right here you know what I mean it's it's a
mind game and I think what what personally may have happened here is that we have a situation I think they've
called in and they realize that they're lost I don't think they called in with with an injury at 4:30 p.m. on that
first day I agree but based on the fact that they end up 12 um 12 hours away right from from where that call took
place so and also there's there's so many times where experiened hikers have gone missing and these girls you know by
all accounts are not experienced hikers well and there's no markers indicating that they are going the right way or
what direction they should take right so that are at a huge disadvantage no matter what in an area that they're not
familiar with so let's say that the women did become lost at some point and once they once they got lost it's kind
of easy to understand how they could have quickly have gotten into trouble the tropical cloud forest where the
women uh where we believe the women were this is a wild area this is venomous snakes this is insects poisonous plants
there's uncountable hazards out there right and also remember that the footing in these little used Trails is very
Rocky and unstable and the trails can instantly become rushing waterways with these tropical storms that can come in
at at a moment's notice right but even worse the region is mountainous and uneven with revines and crevices and
cliffs and sometimes these things are hidden in the jungle now there is a predominant Theory out there that at
least one of the women fell to her death so under my thought this would be some point after they became lost in the
jungle that one of the women fell to her death or was severely injured during this fall possibly off of a monkey
Bridge so interestingly one of the photos taken in the dark on April 8th this um the one with what investigators
believe is a makeshift directional markers made up of twigs and plastic pieces right seems to show one of these
Bridges remember we referenced that earlier in the background and some have wondered was Lianne trying to indicate
that Chris possibly fell off of a monkey bridge now okay so I probably should have got into this a long time ago to to
clarify what a monkey bridge is um for the most part you can kind of picture uh Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and
use your imagination a little bit but basically a monkey Bridge is a rope or piece of cable that is used to cross
Gorges rivers or you know any number of obstacles um there is one strand of rope
or cable for walking on and two strands up above on either side for people to hold on to while they're carefully
attempting to rock walk across mhm so all three of these ropes or cables will be anchored on either side of the
obstacle that you're trying to Traverse so what makes this Theory popular is that the women's remains and backpack
were found near the river Downstream from an actual monkey bridge near which the night photos were taken and the
shorts were believed to have been found the thinking is that Chris perished somehow on the Eastern side of the river
where her shorts may have been found and Leanne attempted to go on from there but
mind you at this point she would have been weakened by a week or more of no food and who knows how much water she's
consumed during this week right so no food little to know water was she not able to navigate the M multiple monkey
Bridges and possibly fell breaking her foot which would immobilize her you know leaving her stranded in one of the
Gorges along the river system the other thing too that might suggest this we do know that the bones
of leeanne's foot were broken inside of the boot because that's the way they were found later right other things that
point to an accident incapacitating at least one of the women include the photo of the head injury on Chris's
Temple again we don't know if she was mobile or even alive when the photo was taken but these kind of situations that
we've just discussed they're not uncommon you know for people traveling abroad to Exotic dangerous places MH
they're not familiar with they go out into the woods they go out on an adventure and they become injured at
some point every day that you're out there every hour that you're out there that's why they have a certain path that
you go hey go up to this point and come back and that's still you know 6 hours of you know tracking back and forth and
I'm sure that people still get injured doing that but when you're out there for so many days and so many hours and so
many miles of walking it's more likely that these things are going to happen now there are some people that would
would say Nick you're wrong um that that's not likely and they point to this is a well-known fact that there have
been other people other tourists that have gotten lost on that exact Trail or the surrounding trails and then later
been located by guides or uh Searchers using dogs right okay so th this but this case has been suggested was
suggested to me a lot and then once I started diving into it right away it's it's very creepy there with the phone
log with the photos there's a lot of stuff to take a look at and Ponder I'm I'm still wondering where where there's
evidence of a crime because I don't see it yet well okay so we before and I'm not saying that you see it either I'm
just saying that people have point to the fact that this could be a crime well no you're right I mean it's often
discussed in areas that in forums that you would discuss True Crime right okay and I think it's the fact of
not knowing it's we don't know for sure what has happened uh more to the thought
of an accident occurred we do have survival Specialists commenting on this specific case and they've referenced
cases that they've studied in the past citing that people in these situations can often survive for a week or maybe
even 10 days but almost never survive two weeks right and if one one or both of them were injured then obviously that
would com compound things significantly right there was a Wilderness expert for The Daily Beast that concluded that this
was very likely a tragic accident we also have the local public prosecutor who ruled that it was an accident and
she emphasized that there is no indication of any Trauma from cutting stabbing or violent dismemberment on the
bones that were found I have a big problem with that statement while that statement is very
true right I question the evidence because we discussed these are bone fragments right how brok and and some of
them are broken bone fragments okay so so let's before we go down any crazy roads off of the accident thing let's
get into the thought of Foul Play because obviously bizarre circumstances in this case of course have given rise
to the speculation about what could have happened to Chris and Leanne so although
quite a bit of evidence points to a tragic accidental death there are plenty of people who are not willing to chalk
up the strange circumstances of this case to the women just getting lost so conspiracy theories are they're out
there right so the deaths of Chris and Leanne have been blamed on cannibals cartel Hitmen drug mules organ
traffickers serial killer straight up conventional kidnapping or rape right um you know there's no really shortage of
Foul Play theories out there perhaps the theories go they did not head down the other side of the trail or the Divide of
their own accord if they came across someone dangerous on their track perhaps that person or persons forced Chris and
Leanne to walk toward WS the bcus Del Toro right instead of back to the town which I'd agree with other than the fact
that we have we still have pictures after that point right as of them having like a good time what's that well it
looks like they're still having pictures of them traveling and having a good time
oh yeah yeah I'm sorry I was thinking about the pictures on April 8th um no there is at least one picture that shows
them believed to be on the other side of the divide and just as you said you know
you can only view one of the women in the picture but she doesn't seem to be stressed she doesn't seem to be you know
uh she's not being held hostage because she's the only one in the picture it's weird that we don't have more
eyewitnesses that saw him on the trail because I'd really like to know where they being Guided by somebody because
somebody that's guiding them further than they're supposed to go and oh no no we'll just keep going past here well
this is a shortcut this is the right way right or yeah I'll show you a shortcut or just a little bit further this way
there's something really cool you need to see and that's when I'm going to you know attack you I'm not going to tell
you that while we're going down the trail and so of course they get past that point they're still taking pictures
but they did take quite a few pictures you'd think that maybe there would be some evidence that there'd be somebody
else with them well okay so the thought on that is that exact Theory might explain why there were no marks on trees
arrows scratched on rocks or Trails of fabric or any kind of other Clues left behind by the women you know sometimes
you see these kind of things done by people that are lost right and we don't see that here well you possibly see that
in the little what they're calling the emergency markings you know but that would be seven days later right correct
my thought here is let's say they are alone or you know you bring up the interesting thought if they're being led
away there and they think they're going in the right direction they're being told they're going in the right
direction they wouldn't leave any markers you know so that would explain that or do you have a situation where
they're lost and they don't realize that they're lost and they're moving further
and further from their point the other thing that might Point towards possible Foul Play is that we
have we do know that calls were attempted you know for few days after April 1st and they stopped on the
eventually but we do know at least someone is using the phone there you know and eventually
they're not using the pen anymore you know was this someone that didn't know the the women and didn't know the pen
right another factor that gives rise to theories of Foul Play are the very you know the very little that was found of
the women's remains right and the state of those remains for one thing where are
the larger body parts yeah put it crudely sorry chock a lot of that up to the elements plus the animals I would
agree with that but I did find some people familiar with the area that point out that when cows are killed by
poisonous snakes in this area or drown in floods in the area that the entire carcasses are are often found or
actually every according to these people are always found and found intact um and then we do have a
situation where the body of a little girl who drowned in the river was found also intact this was after a week um we
should point out that Chris and Leanne were gone for months before you know their remains were found but their
remains are found in little bits and pieces right now experts in various sources have indicated that
decomposition would be very slow in the cloud forest environment because it's Shady damp and cool and deterioration is
delayed so if this in fact is true that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me because so little is found
of these poor women yeah and I I I definitely think that piece of evidence makes me question this you know was it
an accident or was this Foul Play the other thing is the book bag the just the condition of was found in what was found
in it it just uh that really gets me now I don't want to discredit the power of insects and you will never hear another
show ever say that exact sentence I don't want to discredit the power of insects man because I'm telling you you
if you watch Nat goo Channel enough they'll show those little like um you know it's like the images that they
speed up with the a camera that's recorded ing a whole group of ants or insects that will get on something and
then over the course of a day or week devour it to the point where it will fall apart right um so I'm not I'm not
saying that just because of what these experts say that the deterioration would have been slow I think what they're
they're speaking in generalities there who knows what space you know the exact space that these bodies were left in be
it from an accident or from an attack right now what we do know is the area that it's believed that they were last
alive given the photographs in these areas there's no like large cats or crocodiles or big predators in in this
particular area and that might be why the the people from the tribe at one time were living in this spot yeah and
and I also I still like I can't go over like I said the the way the book bag is found but also the shorts is very
interesting if they were truly folded yes all right so let's go into the book bag first then we'll get to the shorts
because I was thinking the same thing and a lot of people point out that that okay because there's flash flooding in
this area very regularly so if I expire and I'm anywhere near the river if I die
from an accident or just you know succumbing to the elements at some point there could be a flash flood that would
then wash me into the river and wash me down the river right right this could account
for my body being tore up in the process over the course of months or however long depending on what's going on with
the added you know we have animals we have now we have the river we have all kinds of things going on however like
you said the backpack is found very near the river so if that backpack is with me
up until the point of I pass away we got to believe that the backpack and me took a similar trip down the river
the backpack it's a cheap you know it's a cheap backpack MH that would have likely Fallen apart in a Rushing River
and if you're going to say that that's what happened to my body but it didn't happen to the backpack I have a bit of
an issue with that right I find it extremely strange that not only is a backback found in good condition is
found in very likely very good condition and now we have little pieces and parts of
of bodies here now you're touching on something interesting too is the shorts well we have a discrepancy on how the
shorts were actually found if they were found in the river okay that that points
to to me I guess more likely an accident right if they're folded up and place neatly somewhere near the river okay
what does that leave us with Captain two options here we got the option of some killer took these shorts and
folded them up and placed them neatly near the river or the person wearing the shorts one of the women took them off
folded them up and placed them near the river but right I I don't see a woman stranded in the jungle taking off her
shorts and going pantless you know going without her shorts in the jungle trying
to stay alive I I mean I guess unless it was something to wash up in the river I I don't know I can't make
it's much like the pictures and much like the activity on the cell phones it's hard to make sense out of really
any of this well that's what's so frustrating I mean the things that make this case so interesting are these
photos the things that make you know uh the call log these items that makes the case so interesting and then on the flip
side of things I feel bad because the family having these logs to look over and these photos to look over it's like
this it feels like it's a puzzle that you can put together and make sense of it but I don't know if you
can right now one thing we've not talked about is photo9 yeah 509 one thing I want to get into
something before we get to that real quick is is a thought that we have this is something you see a lot when people
are stranded and they know they've lost all hope that they're not going to be found they're not going to be rescued
they're not going to be saved they often will leave some kind of note message uh
recording something for their loved ones for their wives their children their mother their father their husbands
boyfriend whomever somebody that means a lot to them they want to tell them something because you have the time to
do it and you know your that the end is near we have two women with with cell phones with a
camera with a backpack there's no we found no evidence that they've left anything for any of those loved
ones they didn't record any videos like you had said right which also makes it lean towards Foul Play and other than
the bloody the possible picture of the bloody Temple or the blurry object that might be a body in the background in one
of the pictures the 90 the 90 pictures that are taken in the middle of the night they're not of of the girls
they're not of the women they're just random stuff there's not there's not a selfie to show that I'm injured there's
not a picture of my friend who's injured or has passed away that's obvious but what there is is a missing photo there's
the missing photo of 509 and the weird thing about that is okay so we have on April 1st the day of the
hike the last photo taken that's on the camera during that afternoon it's number
508 right then there is a 7-Day Hiatus in the photo taking and the Canon resumes taking pictures uh with the
night shots that we discussed the first of which is numbered 510 right so where is
509 now as The Daily Beast put it it's it's the one picture that would fall between the existing daytime and
nighttime photos and thus could give us a clue as to why Chris and Leanne kept hiking and what or who they may have
encountered out there it is not thought likely that the women would have deleted
this crucial picture themselves while out on the trail none of the other night pictures were deleted although some of
them appear to show nothing investigators were unable to retrieve the image from the camera camera's
memory card leading some to believe that it had been deleted on a computer right
so this is where it gets very interesting is they believe they can tell you know
you take a picture with your camera well you didn't like it so you just delete it
real quick move on to the next one that would make sense on why we don't have a 509 but when authorities are saying well
we think it's more likely that the camera is actually connected to a computer to delete that
picture wow right I mean that's GameChanger I mean if if they have the technology to prove that then to me
there's no question that this was Foul Play right and you're not going to just randomly come across a computer out in
the middle of the Jungle so that means the camera was in some some else's possession if in fact that 9 photo was
deleted from a computer and why would someone go to all that effort to delete the photo and then
return the camera with memory card to the backpack in the general walking area of where it's believed the women were
last alive MH very very strange stuff you have to wonder we referenced a possible glitch
in the phones earlier could it have been some kind of glitch right or could there
be some damage that we don't know about water or whatever that is that even though the picture was deleted by the
camera that it made um the data that they're reading look a different way I'm just I'm I'm
throwing out I have no clue about that technology but what it comes down to is I think if you can figure out how 509
was deleted then you will get to the answer of whether it was an accident or a murder well and what the hell could be
on that photo too could be the person that is responsible for them never being found or a bloodied victim I mean any
number of things really pop to mind because you're talking about the photos that we see on the on April 1st appear
to be of two young strong vibrant women out on a hike having a good time out in the sunshine of a of a of a trip that
they wanted to go on right that's what we see that's all that indicates to me is going on and then boom seven days
later we got pictures random pictures in the dark that make no damn sense at all
but that's why it makes sense to me though if they went off Trail for whatever reason and then they stumbled
upon they're looking for help they're called for help they know that they're lost and here comes somebody that goes
hey what are you girls doing can I help you and maybe it's just like after a little bit of traveling it's like they
take a picture with this individual ah you know what I mean and then something terrible goes down after
that picture and that individual is still around to delete it right and like I said you find out why that was deleted
you figure out the answer of whether or not this was an accident or a murder it does seem like a lot of effort to go to
if you're that person but not necessarily so much so that you know look if if if I did
something like that of course and I know that my picture was taken by these women
I'm going to get that photo off of there but what I mean is the effort to return
it to the scene right but here's the here's what I want to know and and somebody could answer this probably in
the blog truecar.com here's what I want to know is you know I have a nice camera like this I don't
know if I delete the picture after I take the picture if I delete it from my camera am I able to retrieve that cuz
what we do know is law enforcement can't even retrieve 509 so what if this person
had knowledge that said well if I did delete it from the camera there's still a way for them to retrieve this but if I
delete it from a computer there's zero way for them to Tre uh uh retrieve this picture I don't know the answers if
somebody has that answer please go to the blog and and let us know wow you're right I mean you okay
that's crowdsourcing right there because there will be somebody out there listening that has somebody right now is
saying you guys are idiots this is how it works and uh some yeah somebody else is screaming
stop doing Miss iners cases it's not true crime even though missing person cases are handled by law enforcement so
it is true crime but I but I do get it sometimes well the prosecutor had to give their opinion as to what took place
in this this particular incident so here's the thing you're right crowdsource someone out there knows this
camera very well and I guess what you're saying like to me the lay person what I'm thinking is something as simple as
my phone okay my phone I take a picture I delete the ones I don't like but there
is an extra folder on my phone that says delete this forever you know like we'll
hold this for 30 days 60 days or whatever for for Nick to determine if he actually doesn't like this photo or not
right so yeah that's interesting to find out now I did find a Blog one one blog that I found that said that the missing
photo is being held back at the request of the family th this who knows exactly that's
right if that's his rumor or not right and who knows who's posting that really so personally I don't know that I can
see this being true simply for the fact that we have we have other statements by
Authority saying we can't retrieve that photo why even bother to say you know well may again maybe they're just lying
to protect one of these females which if they are lying for that I mean at least
that's a good reason a lie now I do want to throw this out there before we get into our thoughts about what could have
happened to these two teras but it you know most all of the um experts that have looked into this case
and I mean local e experts and even Dutch experts that were flown to the area that have reviewed this case they
all state that they believe the cause of death they can't while they cannot determine the cause of death they all
have pretty much come to the conclusion that this was an accident that this is an accidental death uh that the the
women became lost or injured and at some point both succumb to the elements what do you think happened here
Captain well I'm not even going to all I'm going to say is if you tell me that that 509 pH photo 509 was deleted
from a computer you don't have to tell me anything else cuz I can't there's no logic in my brain that could explain
that so um well that would have to mean that they either left the jungle or the camera left the jungle right and if the
camera left the jungle and they did not then I'm then some something right so that that to me that's your
answer and that's all you need to know and and if law enforcement knows for a fact that that camera left and went to a
computer to have a picture deleted and they still want to come up with this [ __ ] that it's an accident well well
just they wouldn't though that's just nonsense but if it's just speculation that it was deleted from a a computer
but they pretty for sure that it was deleted could have been deleted by accident from the um from the camera and
if they knew that then definitely it's an accident see I don't think they know that you know obviously like you said
because it had they known that it was deleted from a computer then then something terrible who in their right
mind could make statements that they're making something terrible happened what what I think we have here is I think we
have a situation where there's a missing photo and reporters are saying well why
would that be why why can't you retrieve the photo the photo should tell us what
happened to these women unfortunately look we have over 100 photos that don't tell us what happened
to these women right so maybe that one extra photo doesn't help us any more than the other crap photos that we've
seen right and what I mean by that is I I feel like they're they're pressuring and and pushing law enforcement or the
investigators who you know I I think we should be clear in the reports it often says investigators I don't know that
that 100% means all the time it's actual law enforcement okay so the investigators are pushed and they're
saying well how could that be man that you have this camera you can retrieve all these other photos but you can't
retrieve this one well that could be any number of reasons like this that the other thing removed by a computer blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah you know so it could be nine or 10 different reasons why that that was uh deleted and
they can't retrieve it the other thing here though too is I wouldn't fully say that if somebody could prove to me that
the photo was deleted by the camera by someone using and operating the camera I wouldn't I wouldn't immediately say well
then they weren't killed they weren't murdered right because why the hell would that photo be deleted and all the
one other you know 100 other photos that right but you can logically explain that
as far as was like oh it was an accident or they took somebody took a selfie that
they didn't like so they deleted it right so I mean there's there's all these logical reasons but there is no
logical reason for this to um leave the jungle be deleted and then come back to the Jungle there's no logical
explanation other than um somebody didn't want that picture on there bad well and I think for this this is a
problem uh that you and the listeners suggested this case it's a it's a big problem because this the information in
this case in this case itself it does keep me up at night there's so many possibilities there's so many unanswered
questions yeah try having like uh I think I had like four Bourbon and cokes and I was watching a nice funny movie I
was watching the Adam Sandler thing um and and then all of a sudden I was like well let me take a look at these photos
again and then 4 hours later I'm like I don't know what I'm looking at I'm a big
fan of this is one of my guilty pleasures I'm a big fan of the show naked and afraid where they take a
couple people and they dump them out in the middle of nowhere with no clothes and basically you get to bring like one
item with you right and that's it and that's all and you some of these people crap out after I saw one person crap out
after eight hours like I'm done tapping out mine would be like8 minutes I I've seen some I've seen some people make it
like 21 days and it's you know watching that show often I thought well looking into this case I might be able to see
some indicators of survival techniques that they used the interesting thing here is that they if in fact they were
alive and this was an accident or they got lost or both they were these two women were smart enough to power off
these phones and not use them unnecessarily you know only when needed they were using these phones in attempt
to get a res effort out there right what troubles me is the inactiveness of both
the phones and the camera yes for so much time and here's the thing it doesn't necessarily mean that they were
murdered what I think might be the situation and that I think has caused a lot of confusion in this case mhm I
think that it's very likely that someone or someone's may have found found their
remains and found their belongings before they were located by people actually searching for them right and it
could be as simple as somebody out in the jungle comes across uh a phone two phones a camera and decides to check
them out and play with them and see what they can do with them and then later that person person gets a conscious or
hands it over to this noi tribe woman and she says look I've seen because there were missing photos remember we we
mentioned there was a missing poster for both of these girls so people in the area did have a general idea that
somebody was missing that two women were missing and this woman may have said look I I got to take this stuff to to
law enforcement and let them know this is what I found right and and and but 30 30 sets of fingerprints unidentified
fingerprints are on the contents of that backgr right but figure out what happened to photo five 9 you you'll
figure out what happened to these [Music] girls and before we wrap up this week here Captain we got a little recommended
reading the book we Are recommending this week is called my son the killer the untold story of Luca magnata in One
Lunatic and one ice pick by Brian Whitney co-authored with Anna yorin this is Luca's mother Luca does not do
interviews but true crime author and friend of our show Brian Whitney was able to get Luca to talk for this book
and we interviewed Brian Whitney on our other show off the Record which if you want to check that out you can get that
on Stitcher premium we did that this week so to find full archives of our old shows of all of the True Crime garage
episodes you can get that on the Stitcher app and if you want to check out the awesome show off the Record
that's only available on Stitcher premium and you can get a free month of listening by going to Stitcher
premium.com truecrimegarage and use promo code garage we hope everybody has a good week
be good be kind and don't [Music] litter [Music] you can start your day off right when
you find a professional on Angie to get your plumbing right first connect with skilled professionals
to get all your home projects done well visit angie.com you can do this when you
Angie that

Photo 509 /// Part 2 /// 257

Part 2 of 2

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2014, Panama - Whatever happened, should never have happened. Two smart, hardworking women traveled to another country. Looking for adventure they decided to take a long touristy hike out into the jungle from which they never returned. There have been many horrifying theories as to what may have taken place out there. This week we explore the very scary evidence left behind as we try to figure out what happened to Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon. Beer of the Week - Brew Free or Die (Blood Orange IPA) Garage Grade - 5 out of 5

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Brief Summary

The episode examines the mysterious disappearance of two women while hiking in Panama, exploring theories of accident versus foul play.

Key points

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Mysterious Photos Taken at Night. A week after going missing, 90+ photos were taken in the dark, raising questions.
Theories on the Women's Disappearance. Two main theories arise: an accident or foul play in the women's case.
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