Photo 509 /// Part 2 /// 257 | Forensic Files

[Music] [Applause] thank you welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks
for listening I'm your host Nick and my co-host is a guy that's attending a time
travel event two weeks ago he is the captain let me just say I'm baffled by the technology it's good to be seen and
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garage and that is enough of the beers mess all right Captain remind me to thank you later everybody gather around
grab a chair grab a beer let's talk some true crime thank you [Music] [Music] all right let's get back to this
fascinating case well Captain I know that we've talked a little bit about the photos that would
have been found later on the digital camera that was found inside the backpack and we've talked about this a
little bit but we've not gone into great detail now I do want to throw something
out there because most of the reports that I could find in in you know I referenced The Daily Beast
yesterday they have really the most comprehensive report on this case there are a lot of
very what I'm guessing are thorough and detailed accounts of of these reports online but they a lot of those are Dutch
you know so it makes it tough for us garage people to figure out and how to read those so we're not fluent in the
Dutch yeah so we went with the Daily Beast for um I did anyway for most of my research
the one thing that I call in a question regarding The Daily Beast that was a little confusing to me is those reports
as well as others that I found state that the digital time stamp on the camera on the memory it was working okay
okay but where I call that into question is we have a situation where the early photos and this will make more sense if
you're unclear about this case uh it'll make more sense as we get into it but the early photos
those when we say hey what time did they get to the summit what time did they get
to the top the the mirror door uh the guess is that it's around 1pm and that's based off of the position of the
sun in there the location the known location of the women when we look at the later photos
we get more we get more detailed information with these and what I mean by that is time stamps right I don't
understand why some of the same reports reference two different things the position of the sun with the early
photos and then later the time stamps with another so I very confusing there and I I'm not I don't mean to confuse
anyone but I want to throw that out there because should we find ourselves in a situation where people are calling
in a question the information I just want to be clear on how it was presented and what was found out there so I found
statements stating that the camera's memory it was preserved and that the digital time stamp worked so according
to that investigators could tell exactly what photo was taken and when right so this of course assuming that
the time stamp is correct we've done so many cases where we're talking about surveillance footage and it's often hour
right um the the camera itself was not equipped with GPS capabilities as we said yesterday it was retrieved intact
and there were 100 plus photos on it that were still available to investigators now approximately 12
photos these were taken on the day that the women were hiking that they hiked the penista up the way to the the to the
crest during the day on April 1st well like we said there was some selfies and there was a couple pictures of each
other taking pictures of their friend the last image from that day is of Chris standing on a rock looking as though
she's about to Traverse a small stream it is sunny she does not appear to be in distress although now we know that the
women were not heading in the direction that they should have been right in the opposite direction we don't know exactly
what time this photo was taken but we do know that both women tried to call uh 112 after 4 pm that day so what happened
in those roughly three hours between the crest of the divide in the emergency calls
or in the even smaller window between the last photo of Chris and the calls but what we do know is that it gets dark
very early here so it's going to get dark around 4 P.M well it should start getting darker in the jungle around that
time the sunset would have been 6 40 p.m on that day so then we have seven days later this is what I was referencing
earlier where we have the earlier photos and then we have the later photos we have
roughly 12 pictures that are taken of the two women on the day that they're hiking on April 1st right it's not until
seven days later that another photo is taken and Incredibly there were 90 Plus photos taken on the camera in the middle
of the night on April 8th a week after the women went missing and most of those pictures don't make sense to either you
or I and that's why a lot of people speculate that they're using the camera as flash
as a way to see where they're going yeah right and and I apologize for laughing when you were were talking there Captain
but in all honesty you know most of the photos I say I think all of them don't make sense to me right and I think
because they don't make sense to me that I find it eerie and I find it extremely
creepy that that they don't make any sense and like you said it could be something as simple as somebody using
the flash of the camera to try to see in the middle of the night maybe they're making their way on a trail maybe
they're hearing something yeah and at some point you're gonna see there's a couple pictures
of the back of one of the girls heads and I would argue it's not a picture to show the
the damage really that it could have been well uh I think something's wrong with my head I think I hit my head and
and the friend saying okay well let me uh use the flash to see if I can see anything right right also you could then
look back at the camera to to view the pictures so to see okay well let me take a
picture of it let me see what's wrong with your head but again you can't tell is it a person taking a picture
of the back of their is she taking a picture of the back of her head herself or is her friend taking the picture of
the back of her head okay well let's give a good uh good representation of these photos so the the people that have
never seen any of these can get an idea of what we're talking about here so seven days later 90 Plus photos taken on
the camera in the middle of the night April 8th right all of these photos appear to have been taken in the pitch
dark of night most of them only Seconds Apart using the Flash and they were taken over a two plus hour period the
last one was taken at 3 22 a.m furthermore all the photos appear to have been taken from approximately the
same spot you know the photographer was not moving around more than a few meters
right so what do these pictures show when when viewed as a whole The Daily Beast says the photos seem to have some
kind of pattern although they are all eerie and Overexposed due to the flash in the in the blackness
all of the photos were taken in a steep jungle environment a dozen or more of these photos are of a long range they're
like hard to make out images and we see some close-up well-lit images as well now the close-up well-lit images are as
follows there's a single photo of a bloody Temple area okay this is other people's words not not the
Colonel's words here a single photo of a bloody Temple area on what appears to be
Chris's head this is based off of the hair color right now the scary thing about this photo is it's
not known whether she was alive when this photo was taken it doesn't show us enough stuff for us to formulate a whole
opinion and Theory off of what's seen or what's available in that photo then another photo would show a crude
possibly a crude Direction marker made out of tiny sticks and little pieces of of orange plastic now this many have
speculated about what this is pieces of some think it to be pieces from a plastic bag or even gum wrappers laid
out on a large flat topped Boulder in the background of this picture behind the boulder some believe that an
enhanced version shows that the markers might be pointing toward a in a straight line across the
terrain to a possible monkey Bridge remember we talked about those monkey Bridges yesterday
a boulder another one shows a boulder or other rock surface type thing uh with what appears to be paper or toilet
tissue some have speculated that that this might be a possible attempt to spell something
and others point out that there is a rusty mirror in the center of the letters to
who knows what this is for could this be for to reflect the flash of the light um
look you you talked about the possibility of using the flash to be able to see uh along a trail or maybe to
see something in the jungle for whatever reason others have speculated that could they
have been using one or one or two of the women using the flash to signal something signal a helicopter searching
for them or to Signal people searching in the jungle for them yeah I mean that's very possible
some of the shots appear to be looking downward into a Ravine and in one of them in particular looking down into
maybe a canyon Below in this particular photo there is a blurry object on the ground and this is in the background and
some believe some have stated that they think that that's a body the blurry object there the tricky thing here
Captain is on the we know from weather reports that there were several heavy rains in the
middle of the night on the 8th so given that time period we know these were taken in the middle of the night
could the raindrops have made it difficult for the camera to pick up images at a distance
you know things that maybe they could see with whoever's shooting these photos that they could see with their eyes that
the camera just simply isn't picking up for some reason yeah or were they hearing things and trying to use the
light to see what they're hearing or the light to scare something off if it's an
animal like one of those monkeys or now so what's up with these pictures is what
everybody is talking about the thing I want to know is why would someone go for seven days between photographs and then
take a series of photos in the middle of the night using the flash all from the same spot well maybe they're using other
sources to light their way such as their phones or but we have the we have the log of the information of
their phones they're not being turned on they're being shut off mm-hmm or their watch or I'm just saying
I I don't know I mean it's the whole thing is confusing yes yes it's it's very confusing that
some people have wondered if if this was an attempt to hint at their location you know like
things are super dire at this point they've been missing for a week take some photos of where we last were or
where I last was because there might only be one of them left at this point right depending on what has happened
is this an attempt for someone to mark their location or is it an attempt to Mark the location where Chris uh died or
was incapacitated and I say Chris because we have that picture possible picture of the bloody Temple right I
also wonder I'm assuming this camera has the capability of also taking video so that's where then I wonder if you're
trying to leave answers for when somebody finds your belongings why don't you just toss on the video
camera and say hey this is where I'm at this is what happened I mean you see that and
what's that movie 127 Hours he does the same thing puts his camera on him and basically says goodbye
right and why wasn't that done if that was the intent right I don't know if it was able to
take video most most cameras nowadays are so I would assume that it was and that feature for whatever reason if it
was available was not not used the other thing too is there we do know their phones you know you and I are more
familiar with their phones than this particular camera we know their phones would have had the ability to film a
video and that obviously was not done with the the phones right and again though it could be no power to the
phones right obviously too though we see an effort to conserve the battery of the
phone and yeah everybody knows shooting a video with your phone will drain the battery probably faster than just about
anything else yeah but then it also makes you just wonder did they come upon somebody or were they being
Guided by somebody and once they're dead are they messing with their stuff and messing with the camera
or were they dead and somebody Came Upon them right and found their belongings afterwards and decide to power up the
phone on the 11th take some pictures on the eighth right the the the strange thing to me though is we see a similar
Behavior with both with all three of these items right we have the phones that are used for days
from the up until the sixth and then then not used again until the 11th and then with the camera we have the camera
being used on the first and then not used again until the eighth it just seems like a
strange pattern of behavior whether it's done intentionally done by one of the women or both or someone else right it's
it's done by somebody we can we can agree with that there may be a a glitch I will go with a glitch more likely on
the phone these photos were taken by somebody right okay so there was a glitch that took uh 90 pictures well and
I say you know and I know it sounds silly to say there was no glitch that took 90 pictures but furthermore on that
is we have this aspect because I I had I did read somebody speculate that like okay let's say the one of the girls had
the one of the women had the phone I'm not the phone the camera on her person and passed away expired from from any
number of reasons all right could could an animal have come up and been messing with the body and
accidentally bumped the phone or causing you know right but sorry I keep saying phone
camera right but at that point you're getting into crazy speculation because what you're getting into is that uh one
of the individuals passed away the camera was on her an animal comes up accidentally hits these photos that are
taken at all different angles so that not only does the the animal take the pictures but it moves the camera in 90
different ways and then magically the camera gets back into the book bag right that's I mean that's just too much
speculation not too much speculation it's [ __ ] impossible I mean sorry to put it I can't put it
any more politely Jesus somebody well somebody's got the dirty mouth I'm not gonna lie to you I was actually pissed
off that I that I read someone's thoughts about that happening that way like whatever so anyway and what here's
what we do know and this is real stuff so the investigators with the help of guides they're like they were actually
able to pinpoint exactly where some of these mysterious photos were taken right well it at least the ones that show the
markers on the Rock the we're calling those directional markers if in fact that's what they are I actually think uh
law enforcement called those the emergency markers okay so and and they basically were able to find the exact
location the exact rock where that photo was taken so this site is about three miles straight downhill from bocate the
town where they were going to stay this is on the Western Bank of a tributary that feeds into that Big River there
so this is about 12 hours by foot from the trail that they were on now the shorts were supposedly found in the
river right near where these photos were taken or they you know folded up neatly
placed beside the river there um and a few kilometers Upstream from where the backpack washed up
or was placed right it is also about two kilometers Upstream from where the first
of the body parts was found so nearby are several abandoned Nobi Huts that the women might have spotted and possibly
could have even used as makeshift shelters before they met their Fates right so and from this spot
had they been able to continue along the river following the trail Through the Jungle they would have got to the Nobi
Village before too long so what this what what this means is if in fact one of the women was taking
these pictures or both of them and if one or both of them made it to where their belongings made it to they
did possibly have shelter and they weren't very far away from other people right the the big question in this whole
deal Captain is really I think we're left with two very simple explanations as to what happened
we either have an accident that you know that these women died and expired because of an accident or they
met with Foul Play somehow [Music] [Music] cheers mates cheers Captain let's get into the
possibilities here accident or Foul Play Because let's start with accident I want
to give a shout out real quick a big cheers to all the veterans that Serve and Protect US yeah I just want to give
it a little cheers as I'm drinking and thoughts and prayers with everybody in California hang out there
um so if everyone analyzing the photos left on the Canon camera if they are correct
from what I found it seems that for whatever reason they all believe that the two women decided to deviate from
the trail that they were traveling on that day and proceeded down the other side of the Divine Right it makes you
wander when they're looking this stuff up online because we know that they did right that did they see something where
they go oh well we can go past for example I was in Hawaii once and there was a trail called the road to Hana and
the whole thing was once you got to Hana that you would turn around right but there was also
a couple miles of An Unfinished road that you could take and loop back around and I decided to take the unpaved on you
know finished Road there you go so is there something that they saw that was like well once you get to the summit
point you can go a little bit further to see whatever right and that maybe it wasn't that they were gonna that they
willy-nilly got lost but they just also didn't understand that the darkness was going to be falling on them around four
o'clock in the jungle so did they get a little bit too far for did they get a little too far out and then decide oh we
made a mistake well I so what most people suggest is that okay we have the first one one two call attempt was
shortly after 4 30 p.m on that day still daylight at this time but it's probably
pretty dark in the jungle then well sunsets at 6 40 p.m on on April 1st so whatever you know take that
information for what it is we're not in the jungle broadcasting here today no so
many people believe that this call was likely placed because one of the women had been hurt in some kind of accident
that's what I have seen online that's what the Reddit people seem to think that an accident occurred around this
time and that's why the first 112 call attempt was made at 4 30 pm perhaps a fall some kind of twisted
ankle I mean any number of injuries you could approach your ankle imagination yes yeah so the problem I have with this
thought in theory I'm not saying it's impossible I'm not saying that it's unlikely but what I'm saying is I think
that later evidence might prove or or at least suggest that it's more likely this
was not the situation and what I mean by that is their belongings their remains they're found a good distance from this
location so let's say that they traveled um walking distance three hours roughly
by the time they make that first attempt to one one two well the walking distance they're found
like 12 hours from where we know they were happy and alive right so that's another nine hours walking distance
right and if you snap your ankle then you might not be making them that far yes I think what might be more likely at
4 30 p.m is that maybe they realized they had become lost right and I think that there's a good chance that maybe
they didn't realize that they were lost until like three hours into the hike back because
look and like I said earlier I'm not I'm not an experienced hiker I'm not a well
experienced hiker but I do know this I've been out plenty of times where I'm hiking I'm camping I'm out in the
wilderness and I'm walking on Trails a lot of the stuff looks the same you know and if you didn't take really
good mental note of things on your way up you may have simply just gone on the wrong trail thinking you were just
returning down on the same trail that you had come up maybe he got turned around while you're up at the top there
right you started down the wrong way I think haven't all of us been there where we're traveling down the trail and
we go it might be a half hour 45 minutes an hour into it and you're going I'm starting to get in the feeling like I
haven't like maybe I went the wrong way yes but what do we do most of us just continue on going because we're like ah
I'm probably wrong well I haven't hiked Trails like this but I've I've done a lot of hiking and like parks and stuff
and like you said some of the trails you go somewhere and then you come back but
most of them there's some kind of loop around even if you get to the end and it's just a circle that Loops you back
to the path you're just on that lets you know hey oh well [ __ ] this one didn't
loop around I have to go back the way I came but some of the trails they just loop
back around so there's there's been times that I've been on trail that we did two or three loops and I'm like man
this Trail is long and they're like what are you talking about we finished the trail three times right and I'm like oh
but that's also you know you probably shouldn't drink a lot of beers before you go
hiking but so now you're in this area that has way more trees and they're in the jungle man
right that's I mean that's the most simple way to put it yeah and I just again again is it that wrong to think
that maybe there was some reason that they were going to go a little further than what the initial hike is supposed
to be and they just got lost and this is just a it was a mistake and it's a very tragic way to die but
you know there's really no evidence of a crime here so far right so far and the thing is
though too you know this is these are not hallways you know we're not talking about hallways it's not like a situation
where you're you're walking for an hour hour and a half two hours even and you go
shoot I think I've gone the wrong way I'll just turn around and go back right you know we're talking about who knows
the number of trails that are going on this other side here and what I mean by that is how many times even if I figured
out finally that I've gone the wrong direction [Music] how many times do I come to a fork in
the road a fork in the path on that trail trying to return get back to the the correct
Trail and have to choose a direction did I go left here did I go right here you know what I mean it's it's a mind
game and I think what what personally may have happened here is that we have a situation I think they've called in and
they realize that they're lost I don't think they called in with it with an injury at 4 30 p.m on that first day I
agree but based on the fact that they end up 12 um 12 hours away right from from where
that call took place so and also there's there's so many times where experienced
hikers have gone missing and these girls you know by all accounts are not experienced hikers well and
there's no markers indicating that they are going the right way or what direction they should take right so that
are at a huge disadvantage no matter what in an area that they're not familiar with so let's say that the
women did become lost at some point and once they once they got lost it's kind of easy to understand how they could
have quickly have gotten into trouble the tropical cloud forest where the women uh where we believe the women were
this is a wild area this is venomous snakes this is insects poisonous plants there's
uncountable hazards out there right right and also remember that the footing in these little used Trails is very
Rocky and unstable and the trails can instantly become rushing waterways with these tropical storms that can come in
at a moment's notice right but even worse the region is mountainous and uneven with Ravines and crevices and
cliffs and sometimes these things are hidden in the jungle now there is a predominant Theory out there that at
least one of the women fell to her death so under my thought this would be some point after they became lost in the
jungle that one of the women fell to her death or was severely injured during this fall possibly off of a monkey
Bridge so interestingly one of the photos taken in the dark on April 8th this um the one with what investigators
believe is a makeshift directional markers made up of twigs and plastic pieces right
seems to show one of these Bridges remember we referenced that earlier in the background and some have wondered
was lisanne trying to indicate that Chris possibly fell off of a monkey bridge now okay so I probably should
have got into this a long time ago to to clarify what a monkey bridge is um for the most part you can kind of
picture uh Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and use your imagination a little bit but basically a monkey Bridge
is a rope or a piece of cable that is used to cross Gorges rivers or you know any number of obstacles
um there is one strand of rope or cable for walking on and two strands up above on either side for people to hold on to
while they're carefully attempting to rock walk across so all three of these ropes or cables
will be anchored on either side of the obstacle that you're trying to Traverse so what makes this Theory popular is
that the women's remains and backpack were found near the river Downstream from an actual monkey bridge
near which the night photos were taken and the shorts were believed to have been found the thinking is that Chris
Parish somehow on the Eastern side of the river where her shorts may have been found and Lee Zan attempted to go on
from there but mind you at this point she would have been weakened by a week or more of no food and who knows how
much water she's consumed during this week right so no food little to no water was she not
able to navigate the multiple monkey Bridges and possibly fell breaking her foot which would immobilize her you know
leaving her stranded in one of the Gorges along the river system the other thing too that might suggest
this we do know that the bones of lisanne's foot were broken inside of the boot because that's the way they were
found later right other things that point to an accident incapacitating at least one of the women
include the photo of the head injury on Chris's Temple again we don't know if she was mobile or
even alive when the photo was taken but these kind of situations that we've just
discussed they're not uncommon you know for people traveling abroad to Exotic dangerous
places they're not familiar with they go out into the woods they go out on an adventure and they become injured at
some point every day that you're out there every hour that you're out there that's why they have a certain path that
you go hey go up to this point and come back and that's still you know six hours
of you know tracking back and forth and I'm sure that people still get injured doing that but when you're out there for
so many days and so many hours and so many miles of walking it's more likely that these things are going to happen
now there are some people that would would say Nick you're wrong that that's not likely and they point to
this is a well-known fact that there have been other people other tourists that have gotten lost on that exact
Trail or the surrounding trails and then later been located by guides or Searchers using dogs right okay so that
this but this case has been suggested it was suggested to me a lot and then once I started
diving into it right away it's it's very creepy that with the phone log with the
photos there's a lot of stuff to take a look at and Ponder I'm I'm still wondering where
where there's evidence of a crime because I don't see it yet well okay so we before and I'm not saying that you
see it either I'm just saying that people have point to the fact that this could be a crime
well no you're right I mean it's often discussed in areas that informs that you would discuss True Crime right okay and
I think it's the fact of not knowing it's we don't know for sure what has happened uh more to the thought of an
accident occurred we do have survival Specialists commenting on this specific case and they've referenced cases that
they've studied in the past citing that people in these situations can often survive for a week or maybe even 10 days
but almost never survive two weeks and if one or both of them were injured then obviously that would compound things
significantly right there was a Wilderness expert for The Daily Beast that concluded that this was very likely
a tragic accident we also have the local public prosecutor who ruled that it was
an accident and she emphasized that there is no indication of any any trauma from cutting stabbing or violent
dismemberment on the bones that were found I have a big problem with that statement
while that statement is very true right I question the evidence because we discussed these are bone fragments right
how broke and some of them are broken bone fragments okay so so let's before we go
down any crazy roads off of the accident thing let's get into the thought of Foul
Play because obviously bizarre circumstances in this case of course have given rise to the speculation about
what could have happened to Chris and lisanne so although quite a bit of evidence
points to a tragic accidental death there are plenty of people who are not willing to chalk up the strange
circumstances of this case to the women just getting lost so conspiracy theories are they're out
there right so the deaths of Chris and lizanne have been blamed on cannibals cartel Hitman drug mules organ
traffickers serial killer straight up conventional kidnapping or rape right um you know there's no really shortage
of Foul Play theories out there perhaps the theories go they did not head down the other side of the trail or
the Divide of their own accord if they came across someone dangerous on their Trek perhaps that person or
persons forced Chris and lisanne to walk towards the Bocas del Toro right instead
of back to the town which I'd agree with other than the fact that we have we still have pictures after that point
right as of them having like a good time what's that well it looks like they're still having pictures of them traveling
and having a good time oh yeah yeah I'm sorry I was thinking about the pictures on April 8th
um no there is at least one picture that shows them to believe to be on the other
side of the divide and just as you said you know you can only view one of the women in the picture but she doesn't
seem to be stressed she doesn't seem to be you know she's not being held hostage because
she's the only one in the picture it's weird that we don't have more eyewitnesses that saw him on the trail
because I'd really like to know were they being Guided by somebody because somebody that's guiding them further
than they're supposed to go and oh no no we'll just keep going past here well this is a shortcut this is the
right way right or yeah I'll show you a shortcut or just a little bit further this way there's something really cool
you need to see and that's when I'm going to you know attack you I'm not going to tell you that while we're going
down the trail and so of course they get past that point they're still taking pictures but
they did take quite a few pictures you'd think that maybe there would be some evidence that there'd be somebody else
with them well okay so the thought on that is that exact Theory might explain why
there were no marks on trees arrows scratched on rocks or Trails of fabric or any kind of other Clues left behind
by the women you know sometimes you see these kind of things done by people that are lost
right and we don't see that here well you possibly see that in the little what they're calling the emergency
markings but but that would be seven days later right correct my thought here is let's say they are alone
or you know you bring up the interesting thought if they're being led away there
and they think they're going in the right direction they're being told they're going in the right direction
they wouldn't leave any markers you know so that would explain that or do you have a situation where they're lost and
they don't realize that they're lost and they're moving further and further from
their point the other thing that might Point towards possible Foul Play is that we have we do
know that calls were attempted you know for a few days after April 1st they stopped on the eventually but we do know
at least someone is using the phone they're you know and eventually they're not using the pen anymore you know was
this someone that didn't know the the women and didn't know the pin right another factor that gives rise to
theories of Foul Play are the very you know the very little that was found of the women's remains right and the state
of those remains for one thing where are the larger body parts yeah crudely sorry shock a lot of that up to
the elements plus the animals I would agree with that but I did find some people familiar with the area that
point out that when cows are killed by poisonous snakes in this area or drown in floods in the area that the entire
carcasses are are often found or actually every according to these people are always found in found intact and
then we do have a situation where the body of a little girl who drowned in the river was found also intact this was
after a week we should point out that Chris and lizanne were gone for months before you know their remains were found
but their remains are found in little bits and pieces right now experts in various sources have indicated that
decomposition would be very slow in the cloud forest environment because it's Shady damp and cool and deterioration is
delayed so if this in fact is true that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me because so little is found of
these poor women yeah and I I definitely think that piece of evidence makes me question
this right you know was it an accident or was this Foul Play the other thing is the book bag that just the condition was
found in what was found in it it just uh that really gets me now I don't want to
discredit the power of insects and you will never hear another show ever say that exact sentence I don't want to
discredit the power of insects man because I'm telling you you if you watched Nat Geo Channel enough they'll
show those little like um you know it's like the images that they speed up with the a camera that's recording a whole
group of ants or insects that will get on something and then over the course of a day or week devour it to the point
where it will fall apart right um so I'm not I'm not saying that just because of what these experts say that
the deterioration would have been slow I think what they're they're speaking in generalities there
who knows what space you know the exact space that these bodies were left in be it from an accident or from an attack
right now what we do know is the area that it's believed that uh they were last alive
given the photographs in these areas there's no like large cats or crocodiles or big predators in in this particular
area and that might be why the the people from the tribe at one time were living
in this spot yeah and I also I still like I can't go over like I said the the way the book bags found but also the
shorts it's very interesting if they were truly folded yes all right so let's go into the book bag first then we'll
get to the shorts because I was thinking the same thing and a lot of people point
out that that okay because there's flash flooding in this area very regularly so if I expire and I'm
anywhere near the river if I die from an accident or just you know coming to the
elements at some point there could be a flash flood that would then wash me into
the river and wash me down the river right right this could account for my body being tore up in the process
over the course of months or however long depending on what's going on with the added you know we have animals we
have now we have the river we have all kinds of things going on however like you said the backpack is found very near
the river so if that backpack is with me up until the point of I pass away we gotta believe that the backpack in me
took a similar trip down the river the backpack it's a cheap you know it's a cheap backpack that would have likely
Fallen apart in a Rushing River and if you're going to say that that's what happened to my body but it didn't
happen to the backpack I have a bit of an issue with that I find it extremely strange that not only is the backpack
found in good condition it's found in very likely very good condition and now we have little pieces and parts
of of bodies here now you're touching on something interesting too is the shorts well we
have a discrepancy on how the shorts were actually found if they were found in the river
okay that that points to I to me I guess more likely an accident right if they're folded up and placed neatly
somewhere near the river okay what does that leave us with Captain two options here we got the
option of some killer took these shorts and folded them up and placed them neatly near the
river or the person wearing the shorts one of the women took them off folded them up and placed them near the river
but right I I don't see a woman stranded in the jungle taking off her shorts and going
pantless you know going without her shorts in the jungle trying to stay alive I mean I guess unless it was
something to wash up in the river I I don't know I can't make it's much like the pictures and much like the activity
on the cell phones it's hard to make sense out of really any of this well that's what's so frustrating I mean the
things that make this case so interesting are these photos the things that make you know uh the call log these
items that makes the case so interesting and then on the flip side of things I felt bad because the family having these
call logs to look over and these photos to look over it's like this it feels like it's a
puzzle that you can put together and make sense of it but I don't know if you can
right now one thing we've not talked about is photo 509 yeah 509. one thing I want to get into something
before we get to that real quick is is a thought that we have this is something you see a lot when people are stranded
and they know they've lost all hope that they're not going to be found they're not going to be rescued they're not
going to be saved they often will leave some kind of note message uh recording something for their loved ones for their
wives their children their mother their father their husbands boyfriend whomever
somebody that means a lot to them they want to tell them something because you have the time to do it and you know
you're that the end is near we have two women with with cell phones with a camera with a backpack there's no
we found no evidence that they've left anything for any of those loved ones they didn't record any videos like you
had said right which also makes it lean towards Foul Play and other than the bloody the possible picture of the
bloody Temple or the blurry object that might be a body in the background in one
of the pictures the 90 the 90 pictures that are taken in the middle of the night
they're not of of the girls they're not of the women they're just random stuff there's not even there's not a selfie to
show that I'm injured there's not a picture of my friend who's injured or has passed away that's obvious but what
there is is a missing photo there's the missing photo of 509. and the weird thing about that is okay
so we have on April 1st the day of the hike the last photo taken that's on the camera during that afternoon it's number
508 right then there is a seven day Hiatus in the photo taking and the Canon resumes taking pictures uh
with the night shots that we discussed the first of which is numbered 510. right so where is 509 now as The Daily
Beast put it it's it's the one picture that would fall between the existing daytime and
nighttime photos and thus could give us a clue as to why Chris and lizanne kept hiking and what or who they may have
encountered out there it is not thought likely that the women would have deleted this crucial picture
themselves while out on the trail none of the other night pictures were deleted although some of them appear to show
nothing investigators were unable to retrieve the image from the camera camera's
memory card leading some to believe that it had been deleted on a computer right
so this is where it's very interesting is they believe they can tell you know you
take a picture with your camera well you didn't like it so you just delete it real quick move on to the next one that
would make sense on why we don't have a 509 but when authorities are saying well
we think it's more likely that the camera is actually connected to a computer to delete that picture
wow right I mean that's Game Changer I mean if if they have the technology to prove that
then to me there's no question that this was Foul Play right and you're not going
to just randomly come across a computer out in the middle of the jungle so that means the camera was in someone
else's possession if in fact that 509 photo was deleted from a computer and why would someone go to all that
effort to delete the photo and then return the camera with memory card to the backpack in the general walking
area of where it's believed the women were last alive very very strange stuff you have to wonder
we referenced a possible glitch in the phones earlier could it have been some kind of glitch
right or could there be some damage that we don't know about water or whatever that is that
even though the picture was deleted by the camera that it made um the data that they're reading look a
different way I'm throwing out I have no clue about that technology but what it comes down to is I think if you can
figure out how 509 was deleted then you will get to the answer of whether it was an accident or a murder
well and what the hell could be on that photo too could be the person that is responsible for them never being
found or a bloodied victim I mean any number of things really popped to mind because you're talking about the photos
that we see on the on April 1st appear to be of two young strong vibrant women out on a hike having a good time out in
the sunshine of a of a of a trip that they wanted to go on right that's what we see that's all that indicates to me
is going on and then boom seven days later we got pictures random pictures in the
dark that make no damn sense at all but that's why it makes sense to me though if they went off Trail for whatever
reason and then they stumbled upon they're looking for help they're called for help
they know that they're lost and here comes somebody that goes hey what are you girls doing can I help you
and maybe it's just like after a little bit of traveling it's like they take a picture with this individual
ah you know what I mean and then something terrible goes down after that picture
and that individual is still around to delete it right and like I said you find out why
that was deleted you figure out the answer of whether or not this was an accident
or a murder it does seem like a lot of effort to go to if you're that person but not necessarily so much
so that you know look if if I did something like that of course and I know that my
picture was taken by these women I'm going to get that photo off of there but what I mean is the effort to return it
to this right but here's the here's what I want to know and and somebody could answer this probably in the blog
truecrime garage.com here's what I want to know is you know I have a nice camera like this
I don't know if I delete the picture after I take the picture if I delete it from my camera am I able to retrieve
that because what we do know is law enforcement can't even retrieve 509 so what if this person had knowledge that
said well if I delete it from the camera there's still a way for them to retrieve
this but if I delete it from a computer there's zero way for them to treat uh retrieve this picture
I don't know the answers if somebody has that answer please go to the blog and let us know
wow you're right I mean you okay that's crowdsourcing right there because there will be somebody out there listening to
somebody right now is saying you guys are idiots this is how it works and uh someone just somebody else yeah
somebody else is screaming stop doing this in person K says it's not true crime even though missing person cases
are handled by law enforcement so it is true crime but I but I do get it sometimes well the prosecutor had to
give their opinion as to what took place in this this particular incident so here's the thing you're right
crowdsource someone out there knows this camera very well and I guess what you're
saying like to me the layperson what I'm thinking is something as simple as my phone okay my
phone I take a picture I delete the ones I don't like but there is an extra folder on my phone that says delete this
forever you know like we'll hold this for 30 days 60 days or whatever for for Nick to determine if he actually doesn't
like this photo or not right so yeah that's interesting to find out now I did find a Blog one
one blog that I found that said that the missing photo is being held back at the request
of the family hmm the this who knows exactly that's right if that's this rumor or not right and
who knows who's posting that really so uh personally I don't know that I can see this being true simply for the fact
that we have we have other statements by authorities saying we can't retrieve that photo
why even bother to say you know well mate again maybe they're just lying to protect
one of these females which if they're lying for that I mean at least that's a good reason to lie now I do want to
throw this out there before we get into our thoughts about what could have happened to these two teristas but
it you know most all of the um experts that have looked into this case and I mean local experts and even Dutch
experts that were flown to the area that have reviewed this case they all state that they believe the cause of
death they can't do while they cannot determine the cause of death they all have pretty much come to the conclusion
that this was an accident that this is an accidental death uh that the the women became lost or injured and at some
point both succumbed to the elements what do you think happened here Captain well I'm not even
going to speculate all I'm going to say is if you tell me that that 509 for photo 509 was deleted from a computer
you don't have to tell me anything else because I can't there's no logic in my brain that could explain that
so um well that would have to mean that they either left the jungle or the camera
left the jungle right and if the camera left the jungle and they did not then I'm then some something
right so that to me that's your answer and that's all you need to know and it and if law enforcement knows for a fact
that that camera left and went to a computer to have a picture deleted and they still want to come up with this
[ __ ] that it's an accident well well they just they wouldn't though that's just nonsense but
if it's just speculation that it was deleted from a computer but they pretty for sure that it was just deleted could
have been deleted by accident from the um from the camera and if they knew that then definitely
it's an accident see I don't think they know that you know obviously like you said because it had they known that it
was deleted from a computer then then something terrible in their right mind could make statements that they're
making something terrible happened what what I think we have here is I think we have a situation where there's a missing
photo and reporters are saying well why would that be why why can't you retrieve
the photo the photo should tell us what happened to these women unfortunately look we have over 100 photos that don't
tell us what happened to these women right so maybe that one extra photo doesn't help us any more than the other
crap photos that we've seen right and what I mean by that is I I feel like they're they're pressuring and and
pushing law enforcement or the investigators who you know I I think we should be clear in the reports it often
says investigators I don't know that that 100 means all the time it's actual law enforcement right okay so the
investigators are pushed and they're saying well how could that be man that you have this camera you can retrieve
all these other photos but you can't retrieve this one well that could be any number of reasons like this that the
other thing removed by a computer blah blah blah blah blah blah you know so it could be nine or ten different reasons
why that that was uh deleted and they can't retrieve it the other thing here though too is I wouldn't fully say that
if somebody could prove to me that the photo was deleted by the camera by someone using and operating the camera I
wouldn't I wouldn't immediately say well then they weren't killed they weren't murdered right because why the hell
would that photo be deleted and all the one other you know 100 other photos that
right but you can logically explain that as far as like oh it was an accident or
they took right somebody took a selfie that they didn't like so they deleted it right no no so I mean there's there's
all these logical reasons but there is no logical reason for this to leave the jungle be deleted and then come back to
the Jungle there's no logical explanation other than um somebody didn't want that picture on
there bad well and I think for this this is a problem uh that you and The Listener suggested this case
it's a it's a big problem because this the information in this case in this case itself it does keep me up at
night there's so many possibilities there's so many unanswered questions yeah try having like uh they got like
four Bourbon and cokes and I was watching a nice funny movie I was watching the Adam Sandler thing
um and and then all of a sudden I was like well let me take a look at these photos again and then four hours later
I'm like I don't know what I'm looking at I'm a big fan of this is one of my guilty pleasures
I'm a big fan of the show naked and afraid when they take a couple people and they dump them out in the middle of
nowhere with no clothes and basically you get to bring like one item with you right and that's it and that's all and
you some of these people crap out after I saw one person crap out after eight hours like I'm done tapping out mine
would be like eight minutes I've seen some I've seen some people make it like 21 days and it's you know watching that
show often I thought well looking into this case I might be able to see some indicators of survival techniques that
they used the interesting thing here is that they if in fact they were alive and this was
an accident or they got lost or both they were these two women were smart enough to power off these phones and not
use them unnecessarily you know only when needed they were using these phones in an attempt to get a rescue effort out
there right what troubles me is the inactiveness of both the phones and the camera yes for
so much time and here's the thing it doesn't necessarily mean that they were murdered
what I think might be the situation and that I think has caused a lot of confusion in this case
I think that it's very likely that someone or someone's may have found their remains and found their belongings
before they were located by people actually searching for them right and it could be as simple as somebody out in
the jungle comes across a phone two phones a camera and decides to check them out and play with them and see what
they can do with them and then later that person person gets a conscious or hands it over to this nobe tribe woman
and she says look I've seen because there were missing photos remember we we mentioned there was a missing poster for
both of these girls so people in the area did have a general idea that somebody was missing that two women were
missing and this woman may have said look I got to take this stuff to to law enforcement and let them know this is
what I found right well and and but 30 30 sets of fingerprints unidentified fingerprints are on the contents of that
bag right but figure out what happened in the photo 509 you'll figure out what happened
and before we wrap up this week here Captain we got a little recommended reading
the book we Are recommending this week is called my son the killer the untold story of Luca magnata and One Lunatic
and one ice pick by Brian Whitney co-authored with Anna yorken this is Luca's mother Luca does not do
interviews but true crime author and friend of our show Brian Whitney was able to get Luca to talk for this book
and we interviewed Brian Whitney on our other show off the Record which if you want to check that out you can get that
on Stitcher premium we did that this week so to find full Archives of our old shows of all of the True Crime garage
episodes you can get that on the Stitcher app and if you want to check out the awesome show off the Record
that's only available on Stitcher premium and you can get a free month of listening by going to Stitcher
premium.com True Crime garage and use promo code garage we hope everybody has a good week be good be kind and don't
wither thank you [Music]

Photo 509 /// Part 2 /// 257

Part 2 of 2

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

2014, Panama - Whatever happened, should never have happened. Two smart, hardworking women traveled to another country. Looking for adventure they decided to take a long touristy hike out into the jungle from which they never returned. There have been many horrifying theories as to what may have taken place out there. This week we explore the very scary evidence left behind as we try to figure out what happened to Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon. Beer of the Week - Brew Free or Die (Blood Orange IPA) Garage Grade - 5 out of 5

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the mysterious disappearance of Chris and Lisanne while hiking in Panama, focusing on their camera's photos and theories of foul play.

Key points

Welcome to True Crime Garage. Hosts introduce themselves and thank listeners for tuning in.
The Mystery of the Photos. Discussion about the strange photos taken after the women went missing.
Accident or Foul Play?. Exploring the possibilities of what happened to the missing women.
The Call for Help. A call was made at 4:30 PM, possibly due to an injury or realization of being lost.
The Monkey Bridge Theory. A theory suggests one of the women fell from a monkey bridge, leading to their tragic fate.
Speculation of Foul Play. Despite evidence pointing to an accident, theories of foul play abound, including cannibals and kidnappers.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

What happened in those roughly three hours?

Questioning the timeline of events after the last photo was taken.

6:44WatchNov 24, 2022

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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