Missing Paperboys /// Chapter 6 /// The Lost Boys | Forensic Files

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[music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] >> On September 5th, 1982, 12-year-old
Johnny Gosch vanishes while delivering Sunday newspapers in West Des Moines. His red wagon, still full of papers, is
found near the start of his route and just a short distance from his home. More than one witness reported seeing
Johnny talking to a stocky man in a clean 1979 to 1981 model blue two-tone car near the newspaper drop. It is
believed that the vehicle had a Warren County, Iowa, license plate. The suspect was described as a man
around 5' 9" tall, approximately 175 lb, with dark eyes, black eyebrows, black hair combed back, and a black
mustache, appearing to be in his early to mid-40s, with a heavy beard or unshaven
appearance, and possibly of Latin appearance. Another witness saw a silver Ford Fairmont speed away northwards from
where Johnny Gosch's wagon was found. Neither driver has come forward nor has been identified.
And what involvement, if any, either vehicle had in the abduction of Johnny Gosch remains a mystery. Less than 2
years later, on August 12th, 1984, another paperboy, Eugene Martin, disappears from Des Moines under nearly
identical circumstances. Witnesses saw Eugene talking to a man near the intersection of Southwest 12th Street
and Highview Drive. The man is described as clean-cut and he appeared to be in his 30s, possibly
driving a 1972 or 1973 green Chevy Malibu with gray primer marks. He has never been identified.
In September of 1984, Anderson Erickson Dairy in Des Moines, Iowa, printed photos of the two local paperboys who
had disappeared while on their routes on milk cartons, marking the official start
of the milk carton kid phenomenon. In October of 1984, 37-year-old Frank Secora was fired from his job in
the circulation department of the Des Moines Register after a private investigator claimed that Secora had
sexual relations with at least seven paperboys. Private investigator Sam Soda gave
authorities a 2-hour videotape in which Secora admits he fondled almost all the boys and sexually assaulted a
14-year-old boy. Soda said Secora let the boys sleep with him in his apartment and showed them
pornographic magazines and films. But then, on March 29th, 1986, another boy disappears in Des Moines.
13-year-old Mark James Warren Allen left his home on Emma Avenue to visit with a
friend. He asked his mother to save some pizza for him to eat when he got home. Mark Allen never arrived at his friend's
home. There are no witnesses and no suspect or vehicle descriptions in Mark Allen's
case. In May of 1987, a former Des Moines Register employee, Wilbur Milhouse, 44
at the time, was sentenced to 30 years in prison after pleading guilty to six counts of third-degree sexual abuse.
Milhouse gave money, drugs, and alcohol to six boys ages 14 and 15 in exchange for them performing sex acts with him.
In 1990, a young man named Paul Bonacci was convicted of three counts of sexual assault on a child in Nebraska.
He was sentenced to prison where he was incarcerated until at least 1992. While serving his sentence, Bonacci
alleged he was the victim of a powerful, widespread child trafficking ring. In 1992, it came out that the then
24-year-old Paul Bonacci said that when he was 14 years old, he assisted a couple of men in abducting 12-year-old
Johnny Gosch. Paul Bonacci claims he was forced to participate in Johnny's abduction by a
pedophile ring. These claims remain highly suspect and controversial. Paul Bonacci is self-diagnosed as having
multiple personalities. Detectives say that he is a liar and his background as a convicted sex offender is central to
the debate over his credibility. Johnny's mother, Noreen Gosch, famously claimed her son visited her in 1997 as
an adult before vanishing again. In 2006, Noreen receives a mysterious envelope containing photos of boys bound
and gagged. She believes one is Johnny, though investigators later linked the photos to an unrelated 1979 case in
Florida. Johnny Gosch, Eugene Martin, and Mark Allen all went missing from Des Moines, Iowa,
in less than a 5-year period. None of these boys have been found. This is a conversation about where these
cases sit today. Frigid cold. This is chapter 6, the lost boys. >> [music] >> You didn't know these boys, John.
>> [music] >> Why did you do this to them? John Joubert replies, "I really don't
know. All I can tell you [music] is that for as long as I can remember, I've just had a need to kill."
And that is John Joubert talking to Mark Pettit in their first interview that took place while John Joubert was
sitting on death row, waiting to be executed for the murder of two boys, one of them a newspaper delivery boy who he
abducted early into the boy's route on a Sunday. And we've already talked about two other similar cases from the state
of Iowa, where we have Johnny Gosch, who went missing 1 year before Danny Joe Eberle. We also have Eugene Martin, who
went missing again on a Sunday morning delivering the same newspaper that Johnny Gosch was delivering. And it's
interesting to take a look at these cases, right? All of these cases are very similar in nature, very similar in
modus operandi, and through the lens we see a pair of solved cases in Omaha, Nebraska and then three unsolved cases
in Des Moines, Iowa once you add in missing persons missing person Mark Allen to the
equation. Yeah, and these all fall in the Midwest. So, if you zoom out and look at it as a national issue, how many
more cases are similar and then did these cases inspire other killers? Yeah, you have to wonder that when you I I
hate to say this because it but it's the truth. You know, and and I've I've had people look at me
with a side eye before when it but these predators are hunting humans and it's the same as a hunter who is hunting
for deer or rabbit or a fisherman. You you know, you don't stand in the middle of a field hoping to catch fish. You go
to a lake where the fish are and it's just like with people who hunt people, you go to where the people are. That's
why if back in the '70s and '80s, these maniacs that were looking to abduct teenage girls, they would go to the
mall. And here you have a weird scenario of newspaper boys being plucked off the
streets during their paper routes and it's sadly it's obvious, right? If there's a if there's a man out there
that's looking to abduct a teenage boy, you have a teenage boy that's out there alone in the dark. Vulnerable. Yeah, we
have some witnesses in some of these cases, but in a lot of the cases we don't have and some of them we don't
have any type of witness. And so, it's interesting to kind of compare these cases. Now, right
out the gate we should say a couple of things because I've heard it reported on other podcast and questioned if John
Joubert could be responsible for Johnny Gosch. Now, we know that he would not be
responsible for Eugene Martin because he was already apprehended by that time. Right.
>> And some podcasters have come up with the question and it's a good question. I'm I'm not saying this to tear them
down. I'm saying it so we can explore it here but also move on from this idea. We
talked about this briefly where Robert Ressler said, "No, John Joubert didn't do the Johnny Gosch
case." And in the short of his answer was very simple, that Joubert's victims were found and
located. Johnny Gosch has never been recovered. That makes sense to me, number one. Mark Pettit who who
interviewed [clears throat] Joubert extensively on death row says, "No, he didn't do it." And Mark Pettit
has a different reason. He goes, "I think he would have told me if he killed John Johnny Gosch, that he would have
eventually confessed to it." Which makes sense because he did confess to the crimes that we know that he did. In
fact, he confesses to killing Ricky Stetson in in Maine. Right. >> And they didn't know anything about
that. In fact, they at one time they had a different man locked up for Ricky Stetson's
murder. Now, one thing that that eventually got him off from my understanding that the the the
wrongfully accused man, he was locked up for months and months cuz he failed the
lie detector test. His alibi didn't check out where he said he was at the time, he wasn't there. So, he has no
alibi, he fails the lie detector test. He had some priors, this guy, but ultimately the bite mark on the victim
didn't match. The bite mark is part of John Joubert's signature. We talked about it with Danny Joe Eberle and we
talked about it with Christopher Walden. And in fact, he tried to cover up the bite marks on Christopher Walden by
doing damage with a knife trying to conceal that bite mark. In fact, there was two bite marks on
Christopher Walden. So, Mark Pettit says, "No, John Joubert didn't kill Johnny Gosch, isn't responsible in that
case." Robert Ressler who is the biggest that one of the biggest experts we can talk about here in the
garage says, "No, the crimes were different." But the reason why people have questioned this is because what we
do know it John Joubert is he kills Ricky Stetson and then shortly afterward he enlist in the Air Force.
Now, I believe and Mark Pettit could tell us better, but I believe that John Joubert probably enlisted in the Air
Force one cuz he had he he had nothing really to fall back on. By this point in his life he had already flunked out of
college in his freshman year in Vermont. I believe that it was flunking out of college that was the trigger. You know,
we always talk about their stressors that that take these people that have these violent murderous
homicidal fantasies. But there's a tipping point. There's a there's often times a stressor or a
trigger that sets them over the edge that takes them from fantasy to living their fantasy, acting it out and finding
a victim. And I think that it was him flunking out of college and moving back in with mom in Maine that led to being
the stressor, the trigger of killing Ricky Stetson. So, he kills Ricky Stetson. The way that that goes down is
Ricky Stetson was out jogging and it this is you know, I hate the expression wrong place at the wrong time. Oh, he
was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. But it's true though. It's such the
truth. It it with a lot of these victims, especially when you're talking about a serial offender,
that it's remember we talk about the the three abilities, desirability, vulnerability and
availability. And a lot of times the vulnerability and availability comes down to wrong place at the wrong time.
John Joubert wasn't looking for Ricky Stetson. He was looking for a Ricky Stetson. He was looking for a victim and
it happened to be this kid who was out jogging and John Joubert's out riding his bike. But the accessibility, right?
And the vulnerability trumps the desirability. Exactly. >> This victim might not
match their perfect victim type, but hey, they're there. It's an opportunity. But a couple things that you said, one
talking about true crime podcast, one true crime podcast should collaborate more, but we also should talk more [ __ ]
about each other. Just for fun. You know, like a East Coast, West Coast rivalry. In the next couple weeks I'll
determine which podcast I want to talk [ __ ] to and I'll start talking [ __ ] to
them publicly. It'll be fun. But also, you're talking about this interviewing a killer,
which would be I think extremely fascinating if I was ever afforded that opportunity. And I
don't want to get off on a crazy tangent, but is there somebody that you have in your mind that if you had the
opportunity to talk to in prison that you would talk to? I I think I've said this before here, right? That I I don't
pay attention. I wrote a uh a rather lengthy letter to Edmund Kemper and I got a reply. It wasn't the reply
that I wanted. I got a phone call from another inmate. He gave my information. You want to talk about a guy that plays
games? He loves to play games. He gave all my information that I sent to him so he would reply to me
to another inmate for his own amusement. And then I had to deal with this other inmate that I had no desire to talk to
calling me for weeks upon weeks. He would tell me about Edmund Kemper and his interactions with Ed and those were
interesting, but other than that I didn't want to hear from this other guy. So, really he
he must have been annoyed by my letter and he found a way to pay me back tenfold on the annoyance by having this
other inmate call me. Well, it helps if you type the letter and you don't write it in crayon. I wanted to play a game
with him and the game I wanted to play is and I thought he might he would have some very good insights to this
were the Zodiac killings. That was my letter to him. I was like, "Hey, let's work on this together. Let's work on the
the unsolved Zodiac thing." But back to back to our Well, you I guess you're going to tell us who you would want to
talk to. I I don't have anybody off the top of my head. I'm I mean, I think BTK would be fascinating, but he's probably
not going to to admit to crimes that I think he's responsible for. I I think that would be a fascinating angle of a
conversation of the these crimes seem similar to yours and and is there a reason why he's not
taking credit for them or is it simply that he didn't do it? The the problem with all these individuals is we know
that they lie. And so then, what do we choose to believe? Now, there's several people like out of in the true
crime space. I mean, Ressler would have been a fascinating conversation. And I've heard
John Douglas conversations with you and those have always fascinated me. Those were like a a honor and a privilege to
edit even though John Douglas is hard to edit. But I I would love to talk to Jason Baldwin or Damien Echols just
because that case there's there's just so much more information that even though that case
has a lot of information out there. You have spoke with Jason Baldwin just not in a venue that was We drank heavily
together. Yeah. Yeah, so probably not much about the case. I've talked to Terry Hobbs. Um
He almost came on the show. The invite is still out there, Terry, if you are listening. But back to back to our case
here, and this is something that other podcasters have pondered. You have this scenario where John Joubert he kills
Ricky Stetson in Portland, Maine. Okay, and this is 1982. So, Ricky Stetson is 11 years old at the
time, and he fits very much that desirability portion of the three abilities, too. If you look at all three
of his victims, they're all on the smaller side. Right. And so, he fits that smaller build of victim that he's
looking for, and we've already talked about how small John Joubert is. And not just was up to the point of his
execution, he was even smaller when he was apprehended. He put on weight while he was on death row.
But he was a smaller man, and I think that that played into the type of victim he was looking for. I
think he was looking for smaller individuals that were But he also wanted a teenager.
He wanted that 12-year-old, 13-year-old type victim. You look at his three victims, 11, 12, 13 years old. Right.
And but he wanted a smaller victim. Why? Because he was smaller, and that played
into his ability to control the victim, his need to control Well, hold on, let's just say the other
obvious. With a small victim, it's easier to control, so easier to kill or to live out whatever fantasy that you're
trying to live out. But also, it's the aftermath. Now you have a smaller victim to dispose of. Yeah. And we know that in
one of the cases he disposed of the victim, and the other case he walked the victim to where they were eventually
found. So, on August 22nd, 1982, John Joubert kills 11-year-old Ricky Stetson in Portland, Maine. On September 5th,
Johnny Gosch disappears off the streets of West Des Moines, Iowa. And if you were to make the quickest route, driving
route from Portland, Maine out to Bellevue, Nebraska, Omaha, Nebraska where we know John Joubert ends up
eventually, because we know that he killed Danny Joe Eberle the following year, September 18th
1983. He abducts the boy on his paper route. Johnny Gosch disappears on his paper route 1 year prior. You That route
would take you right through Des Moines, Iowa. And so, the question has always been
with some folks, did he stop along the way, or did he or was he in Des Moines, Iowa
for any period of time and abducted and killed Johnny Gosch? It's interesting to
ponder. The problem with that equation is he didn't go straight from Portland, Maine to Omaha, Nebraska.
He was actually stationed in two different locations before he ends up in Omaha, Nebraska. So
the best that I can pin John Joubert down at the time of Johnny Gosch's abduction, he was actually in San
Antonio, Texas. And he was completing his training for his Air Force training, and then he ends
up in Biloxi, Mississippi, both before he is in Omaha, Nebraska. Yeah, so one, you have to put the guy in the area for
him to be able to commit the crime. But I think the other thing that should be noted here is if he's not responsible,
that just is a indication that there's more and more creeps. Just scare the [ __ ] out of everybody. Johnny Gosch,
while he is the same age as Joubert's victims, he's quite a bit bigger. I mean, actually, at
the time of his disappearance, he's larger than John Joubert. He's an inch or two taller than John Joubert, and
would have weighed about the a little less than Joubert at the time, but I think that even if he were, which we
know that he wasn't even if he were to have been in Des Moines, Iowa by chance on September 5th, 1982, I
think he would have looked for a smaller victim. I think that the size of Johnny
Gosch would have made him just keep driving. And we know that Johnny Gosch was not the only
newspaper boy out that morning. There's a lot of stuff that takes place in the Johnny Gosch case, and people that are
familiar with the case they know this. There's a lot that went on with that case over the decades in
it's it's a case that refuses to go quiet, and a big part of that is Johnny Gosch's mother, Noreen Gosch. We know
the last place that we can tie him to is the corner of 42nd and Marquart Avenue.
One thing that we should talk about here, Captain, is there's [snorts] been a lot of speculation as to what happened
to Johnny. And there's been talk of, well, he's he's not dead, he's been sold into child
sex rings. And we have Noreen Gosch, who says that Johnny visited her many years after
he was abducted. He He came and spoke with her one night in the middle of the night, and he was an adult, and he was
there with another man who who seemed to be keeping an eye on Johnny and controlling
the situation. He was living under a different name. I Look, I don't know if that really
happened. We know that we know that Noreen Noreen and John Gosch Sr., Johnny's dad, they eventually separate.
John Gosch moves to, I believe, Arizona. He says, look, I question if that really
happened or not. I I'm not going to sit here and and drag Noreen through the mud. She says it
happened. I don't know. It doesn't seem likely to me. I I Look, the These parents go through a
lot. This is enough to break anybody. Well, you wonder, is it It wasn't a dream that just felt so real?
But also, I My argument to other people would be like, show me where she's lied before. Show me Show me her as a liar.
Show me her as somebody that hasn't gone gone above and beyond to try to help other missing
children's families. And just the whole conversation, she's She's advanced the conversation of what should we do when a
child goes missing. And so, my argument is if you can't point to her as a liar, why should I not believe her? And then
you've also in the Johnny Gosch case, and even if the story was made up from Noreen
but it pushes the narrative or gets people to keep talking about the case, hey, she's a parent. There's nothing
that you won't do. But there's been other people in the Johnny Gosch case that have come
forward and said, I helped abduct Johnny. >> Well, that's what I want to get into
right here. So, this is from a 1992 I pulled all the information from information that was coming out in 1992.
Okay, so If I sound a little pissed off, I'm I'm a little pissed off. Well >> Not at you. Just in in general. I think
these cases, they're frustrating, and I think sometimes when people are trying to put
out information or try to give information, I don't know. I think the the narrative of these cases and how
people have fudged them over time. And not just And not just in this case, but in in true crime as a whole.
The more we look into the cases, the more I realize the initial narratives really matter,
because they stick. Yeah, but I I Again, this child sex ring and and all of this
extra stuff, all this other stuff was not part of the original narrative. >> Right, right. Um And and to circle back
to something, too, like I get it if if Noreen makes up the story to keep her son's story alive
I I can sympathize with that. The problem with that, though, is it's just frankly it's just wrong. I mean, if And
if you were if you were to be caught in a lie of that magnitude, then you're not
helping your son's case. You just aren't. So, I mean, I it it would seem a bit of cutting off your nose despite
your face situation. But let's go to to something that we know absolutely 100% did take
place in the Johnny Gosch case. Speaking of original narrative, let's go back to the beginning here, right? On
the morning of September 5th, 1982, Johnny Gosch left his home around 6:00 a.m. to deliver the Sunday Register.
Something that he did most Sundays. Now, keep in mind, most of these days, if not all, the way that the original
narrative is this is the first day that he was going to go out there and do it by himself. And if that is true,
speaking of truth, if that is true, I think that plays into the facts of what probably happened that day, of of who
might be responsible. Now, and keep that in mind as we go through this portion of
the story. So, around 7:45, someone calls to ask why their paper hadn't been delivered.
Noreen and John, they rush out. They're looking through the neighborhood, trying to find their son.
This is a nice neighborhood. The search didn't lead them to Johnny, obviously. It led them to something worse. They
find his wagon still filled with newspapers sitting near the beginning of his route
as if the route had barely started before it was abruptly interrupted, and they report their son missing around
8:30 that morning. Now, detectives would learn that Johnny had last been seen talking to a man in a blue car around
that 6:00 a.m. mark. This man's identity has never been confirmed. The blue car became a detail that hung
over this case. It sounded like a lead, but really it's just a bigger it's just part of a bigger
mystery. And the first days after Johnny vanished, police were reluctant to say that he had
been kidnapped even though there's no trace of him. And we can sit here today. I I feel we know
the kid's missing, right? And but he's often referred to as a missing kid. I don't know why we're not saying
abducted kid. It's clear to me this kid was abducted. Now, 2 weeks into this investigation,
according to Noreen, the case was put on the back burner, as she states it. She was very vocal in '92
because she's saying, "Look, we've uncovered the biggest break in this case. It's
not a suspect, not a confession, well, of sorts, right? But a person who had or claims to have involvement with
Johnny Gosch's abduction. This all ties into some of the sex ring implications, and also with a circle of pedophiles, as
well as child pornography, child sex abuse material, things of of that nature. What we get
here, Captain, is an attorney in Omaha, Nebraska very weird right back there in Oma-
Omaha, Nebraska. All these things are just they're just tied together in my mind
permanently. So, an attorney from Omaha, Nebraska contacted Mr. Gosch, and he tells Mr. Gosch
that he has a client sitting in prison who claims to have been involved in the abduction
of their son, Johnny Gosch. What we have to decide here, Captain, is is this story true
or is it false? Is it just another part of this big, strange mystery that's become a mystery wrapped in a riddle?
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>> [music] [music] >> All right, we are back. Tall cans [music] in the air. Power to the people
in the back. Much love to everybody that's on Patreon and Apple podcast subscriptions. Cheers to [music] you,
Colonel. Cheers to you, Captain. Tall cans in the air, everybody. So, what we're talking about here is Paul
Bonacci. Paul Bonacci. At this So, in the at the time he's 24 years old, he's sitting in
in prison in Omaha, Nebraska, and he tells his attorney that he was involved in the abduction of
Johnny Gosch. Johnny's father hires a private investigator to first meet with this Paul Bonacci
and the attorney, and then he goes and meets with him as well. And both the private investigator and
and Mr. Gosch walk away from those meetings with the same conclusion, that they believe that this
Paul individual is telling the truth. And that is what Noreen is saying, "Look, this is the biggest break. We
took this information to the police department investigating our son's abduction, and they they don't want to
do anything with this information." Now, the they're the way that this story works is that
he says that he had been being abused by a child sex ring, and that he claims that
he was part of abducting Johnny Gosch. Look, if you have a kid in the car, it would be easier to entice another kid to
get in the vehicle is the general idea here, or send Paul out to talk with a possible victim and lure them
back to the abductor. His story he claims that there there's a couple problems with Bonacci's story, okay? And
I know that the parents, Johnny's parents, feel like he's telling the truth. >> Well, part of it part of it is that they
want to believe somebody with new information. That's part of it. And so, you have to look at this information
with a clear head. And it's going to be impossible for anybody that has had a child abducted, and they don't know
where their child is, to come at a lot of this information with a clear head. Well, speaking of clear head, I'm
allowing my speculation to get in the way of telling of laying this story out. So,
Noreen meets with she eventually meets with Paul Bonacci as well. This would be just before
Thanksgiving 1991, okay? She said that he told her things that he could only have known
from speaking with Johnny. Right. >> And Bonacci's story is expansive and horrifying if it's real. He claims that
Johnny had been sold into a pedophile sold to a pedophile in Colorado, and said that he traveled, quote, on the
road with Johnny Gosch and other kids for about 7 years, and that the last time he saw Johnny was in Colorado in
1989. And he said that eventually Johnny was later shipped to a country in the area
of the Netherlands where this type of activity is legal, and that Johnny had been renamed Mark. He had black hair,
and he stood 6' 4". Johnny was a big kid, so the 6' 4" thing makes sense to me. Some of what he's saying makes sense
to me. The problem that I have with Bonacci's story is this. One, at this time, he
is in prison. We know that. What's he in prison for? Sexually assaulting three boys. Oh, but that
shows that part of his story is true. The other part of his story that I don't like is that he says that So,
the reason why Mr. Gosch and the private investigator walk away from their meetings with Paul Bonacci think that
he's telling the truth is that they they basically gave him a photo lineup without telling him it was a photo
lineup, right? They gave him the description of the man. The description we have of the person that was talking
to Johnny Gosch, and they said that he picked up the picture, said that this is the man that
abducted Johnny Gosch, and and named that person, the mystery man. He named him. They took
that information to police, and the police weren't so interested. They didn't arrest the guy. They I think
Noreen claims that they didn't interview him. The police say that they did interview him multiple times,
but the police also say that they don't believe Paul Bennewitz. And that that's going to be a problem
for this for arresting the guy. They can't just go arrest the guy because Paul Bennewitz
says this is Johnny Gosch's abductor. Right. The other part of the story that I don't like is Bennewitz says that he
was in a motel the night before Johnny Gosch was abducted. And he says that that man
who he named came to the motel, gave him a picture of Johnny Gosch and said, "This is the boy that you're going to
take tomorrow." Okay. Let's examine that part of it. I'm not saying that all parts of Paul Bennewitz
story are completely false, but this would seem false to me because the original the narrative, back to the
idea of original narrative, has always been that Johnny went on that paper out for the first
time alone that morning. So, if you were targeting that his Paul story would implicate that that Johnny Gosch was
targeted. And if he was targeting Johnny Gosch, you're not going to do it on his
paper route when he's not a when he's being accompanied by his father. So, that part of the story
I don't know, just doesn't ring true to me. Well, and he knows about certain birthmarks and, you know, the fact that
Johnny would have a stammer when he get nervous. But, a lot of this stuff you could learn
through I found all of that in the newspapers. Right. I I found that in the newspapers because all that was
well reported. I mean, obviously it would be. They're looking for the boy. But, this is strange to me because
Paul's not coming forward or Bennewitz is not coming forward and trying to go, "Hey, I'm I'm awesome. I'm a hero." You
know, uh he's telling you what he is. "I'm a degenerate, a horrible [snorts] individual, and I
and when I was younger, I helped abduct Johnny Gosch." I'd also wonder if he helped abduct other individuals. But,
so to me, it's it's like when when somebody confesses to a crime and then the next time they
confess, they put they implicate themselves more and they make themselves look worse, right?
I tend to believe the the story where it makes them look worse. So, again, if he
was trying to tell this story or try to sell it as if he was >> make him look worse though? I mean, how
many times does somebody end up on trial for murder and at their at their sentencing, once
they're found to be guilty, at sentencing, all of a sudden, they're telling stories of, "Oh, I was abused
and neglected as a child and all this stuff happened to me and this is why I am the way I am. I'm a victim,
too." And that to me is what his story is is more of, "Oh, I was victimized as a child and that's why I've done the
stuff that I am now sitting in prison for." Yeah, but it could be both, you see.
>> that, too, can't [clears throat] you wouldn't you believe for a moment that he's trying to use this information to
leverage him into a better situation? "Hey, this kid you've been looking for for 10 years, I've been sitting on
information." It could just be his lack of intelligence. The information that he's given is not going to get the
answers needed to help him out in any possible way. He can sit there and tell you what happened, but if
you're not able to find Johnny because of this information, I don't know how much it helps him. But,
that doesn't negate the fact that he might not understand that. So, then you just wonder,
is he trying to tell the truth? And the truth still makes him a a [ __ ] that participated in this stuff, whether it's
willingly or non-willing. I mean, that's a whole other argument. Or is he just a complete bag of horse
[ __ ] and he's just telling this story to possibly get something out of it. That
You know, some of these people, they're they're so dumb that they think, "Well, I can just make up nonsense and feed
them information and maybe I'll get a lighter sentence." Not understanding that if you don't give
them enough where we get some results, that this does nothing for you. So, he could just he could
>> hurt to try. It doesn't hurt to try. The problem with his story is this for me.
It whether it's real or not, I believe it to be false, completely false. But, the the problem with his story is this.
Either it's completely a lie or it's the truth and the truth is so strange and fantastical that nobody will
believe it. Well, and the thing, too, is he he brought law enforcement to a location that he said they were holding
children. He said before they get to the location where they're holding those children, they go they go to that
location and find a basically like a secret door that leads you to this place that has all these names written
and carved into it. And you go, "Okay. So, maybe the the Johnny Gosch part isn't correct,
but other parts of his story are correct. And I think that's hard for law enforcement to deal with. I think
it's hard for society to deal with that there's this there's this crazy, sick, demented [ __ ] going on constantly.
And sometimes it's it sounds it sounds insane. And I think some of the people that are
doing this stuff know that. You know, in the mid-90s, they were talking about Bohemian Grove,
which was a owl sanctuary where world leaders would meet to have conferences. And they had a outdoor
amphitheater. And during some of these meetings, they would have a play. And the play would be a reenactment
sacrifice of a child, of a baby. And that sounds insane because if I'm at a party and you turn to me
and you give me a nice cold beer. We cheers, talk, hands in the air, and you say, "Hey, get ready cuz in 5
minutes, they're going to have a play where we we reenact the sacrifice of a child." I'm
going, "No, thanks. I'm getting the hell out of here." And it sounds crazy. And if you tell
people the story, you could tell 100 people the story and they all think it's crazy.
But, then when you can show them video evidence of it, then then people don't know what to do. They don't know what to
say. Every time we talk about anything about human trafficking or child trafficking, I get an email from
somebody that says it doesn't exist. And I think that's part of them not wanting
it to exist. And just because you want something not to exist, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And so, I don't know if
Paul's story is connected to Gosch, but it is connected to other individuals. And
and I think it Look, both can be happening at the same time. These individuals that do sick [ __ ]
they're looking for reasons why. And if they were physically abused, mentally abused, or sexually abused as a
child, this is them wrestling with the justification. And is it chicken or the egg? And so, I think this guy's a piece
of [ __ ] How he got there, I'm not for sure. But, that is part of the story and it's
also should be part of like the disclaimer. When these individuals are abused, they can become the abuser. And
the and it's a sick, sad world. True, but a couple of names carved into a wall doesn't mean
that his story's true. I mean, again, you said it, he's not able to prove any of these things.
And that is where his story for me stops. Until any of that can be proven, his is
just a story. And it's just one story. It's it's one story that made it to the spotlight with the Johnny Gosch case.
But, I can assure you this that and everybody out there listening, that this is not the only story that made its way
to police or to Noreen Gosch or anybody else regarding Johnny Gosch's what happened to him. Well, but hold on. I I
do want to point out he talked about being branded. And there was other individuals that came out
saying that they were branded as well. That's something that if you are faking, brand yourself sometime and tell me what
that feels like, right? And so, when that stuff comes out to me, I'm like, again,
the 100% of the story doesn't have to be true, but even if 5% of it's true, this
is a sick world. These are sick individuals. These you know, you might not have to run down
100% of the story, but you have to run down the 5% of the story because this is happening all the time.
>> Well, let's get out of the weeds here and go back to Des Moines, Iowa and examine
this because what I want to truly examine here is are these still outstanding cases connected?
Right? We have Johnny Gosch, he's never been found. We got Eugene Martin 2 years
later. So, Eugene Martin is last seen between 5:30 and 6:00 a.m. on August 12th, 1984
in his hometown of Des Moines, Iowa. He was preparing to start delivering his morning newspaper route
at that time. And he normally delivered the papers with his older stepbrother, but his stepbrother was not with him on
this day. Witnesses saw Eugene talking to a man between 5:00 and 5:15 a.m. at Southwest
12th Street and Highview Drive. The man is described as clean-cut, and he appeared to be in his 30s. He has never
been identified. You know, we talked about the vehicles in question in the Johnny Gosch case. They didn't call
those the drivers of those vehicles suspects, but you do have the detectives telling the papers
in Johnny Gosch's case like because the papers kept kind of poking at police like, "Well, are these
suspects? Are these suspects?" And they're they're like They want to call them suspects.
But they they refuse to do so, but they but they tell the newspaper, "Look, our concern is we're not calling them
suspects, but our concern is here's all this time we've described these vehicles
over and over again, and nobody with these vehicles has ever come forward. No one has ever come forward. So, that's
where their suspicion lies if you read between the lines there. The similarities in the two cases are
fascinating with Eugene Martin and Johnny Gosch both on a Sunday morning Yes. >> both out delivering newspapers, and
according to the original narrative, both delivering it alone, solo, for the first time.
Now, when you dig deeper, one thing that's great about covering cold cases from the state of Iowa is
Iowa has a fantastic cold case presence online. iowacoldcases.org. It's a It's a great tool for us when
we're doing our research. They cover just about every Iowa cold case that you can think of. I mean, it's it's
extensive. With Eugene Martin, less is known about his story than Johnny Gosch's. And I wanted to really dig
through the Eugene Martin stuff because I have to reconcile are these connected.
There's so many similarities that it says that they would be. The difficulty thing here The difficult part of this is
the person or persons responsible, did they wait 2 years before they pulled another kid off the streets? That's
difficult to say. So, I found one person who posted a great comment about Eugene's case and gave
much more information because he lived there. He grew up with the disappearance of Eugene Martin.
And so, Mike K posted, this is from almost 6 years ago. And I'm going to read his post cuz it's it's detailed and
it's filled with information. He says, "I clearly remember when Gene disappeared. I was 15 at the time. Gene
was 2 years younger than I. He lived with his mother on the east side during the school year and visited his dad
during the summer, so I didn't know him, but this happened in my south side neighborhood and it hit me pretty hard.
As someone who grew up about a mile from where Gene's paper bundles were dropped
and about a quarter of a mile of a mile from where his bag was found, who also spent a few weeks in Iowa August beating
the bushes and all over the south side of Des Moines with the organized search crews, I'd like to point some things out
to the internet sleuths here. First, from where his paper bundles were dropped, the city limits are
approximately 1 mile straight south and also about a mile and a quarter west on on a state highway that ran straight to
Interstate 35. The map today doesn't represent the area as it was because the airport bought out my entire
neighborhood to expand and rerouted the highway a bit to the south. But if you look at the intersection of Southwest
14th and Army Post Road on the current map, then track a straight line west to I-35
through the airport, that is how the highway ran. Near the end of the last building shown
on the airport on Google Maps today is where the city limit sign used to be. And if memory serves me correctly,
over 36 years later, Gene's bag was found on the side of the road not too far past that sign. And he says that the
the bag was found by a person who he's calling RM, and we'll get to Well, sorry. The bag, as we know, was found by
his route manager who saw it because it was on his path from where he was to Gene's bundle drop.
Okay. Now, Mike K goes on to say, "You can never miss those bright yellow bags lying on the ground anywhere.
I didn't know Gene because he was 2 years younger than me, but this was my neighborhood. The biggest reason that
there is more information about the investigation out in the public view about Johnny Gosch rather than Gene is
because Noreen could not stay away from microphones and often times said things on air that compromised the police
investigation. Don Martin, Eugene Martin's dad, didn't do this. I can tell you that
in the weeks after Gene's disappearance, there wasn't a field, barn, ditch, culvert, property, creek bed, riverbank,
railroad trestle, or inside of a 7-mile radius that wasn't walked and checked by our group." So, Mike is
saying he was part of the organized searches for Eugene Martin. And that's a great description of He's
saying in a 7-mile radius, we checked everything. Often times, the they were accompanied by Gene's family
on the searches. And part of Mike's post, his comment post here, is in defense of the Martin family because
there were people that were posting on iowacoldcases.org that they were suspicious of
Eugene's father. And he's saying there's no reason to do that. And we also talked
about in when we covered Eugene's case in chapter 4, we talked about the the detective that worked the Eugene Martin
case, and he would go over to Eugene Martin's father's home every Friday after work, and they would sit
and talk about the case. Every Friday for years. That was Detective Rowling. Yeah, something you probably wanted to
do if you had something to do with the case. I think it's just bad speculation on the
internet that that has led to that. So, his post goes on and says, "No property owner to my knowledge told us, 'No, you
can't look here.' That's just the way we were back then. I also remember that I also remember that neighborhood was
literally crawling with police canvassing, checking, looking, etc. for at least a week. They were never denied
access anywhere they wanted to look because us south siders were upset and actually wanted to help. Nobody in
Gene's family hurt him or buried him in the basement under his own house." That was some of the speculation in the post
in my prior post. "Those things were extensively checked," he says. "Detective Rowling followed every lead
and idea that came his way. You can take that to the bank. I will say that in the
interest of keeping investigation details under wraps to keep the cranks from wasting his time, he wouldn't or
couldn't let people know what was or wasn't found. That's just standard investigative procedure." He goes on to
say, "I see names called out here that I remember hearing back then, so I can only assume they were thoroughly
investigated as well. This is interesting because this whole pedophile ring hits a lot closer to home
in Des Moines, Iowa, than it does with some of Paul Bonacci's accusations and other stories that we've
heard. Mike K says, "Yes, The Register, which was the newspaper that both of these boys were delivering, The Register
had a few pedophiles working in the delivery department at the time, but I recall every single one of them was
checked thoroughly as well as the route manager and the distribution manager and
anyone else with The Register that might have had slight passing knowledge. Des Moines Police Department didn't want
to miss a trick, and I don't recall hearing of anyone stonewalling them. What's interesting about this statement
here with the pedophiles at The Register is one, it makes sense they would be out
there at the same time that these boys were. And two, the boys wouldn't have any problem talking to these guys. They
essentially work with them. They're associates. These are people that they've seen before. They're not
strangers. And what did Don Martin tell us about Eugene Martin? He says, "It had to have been somebody that he
trusted or that he knew that took my son." And he says, was too shy. He wouldn't talk to a stranger."
And that's what the father has always believed. >> Well, let let me go a step further with
that because if this is somebody that you were technically working with or working for,
then Eugene would have felt a obligation to talk to them. You see what I'm saying? So, they don't
have to be somebody that's familiar or or friendly towards him. It's simply I'm being paid to do a job.
So if I'm talking to my manager or somebody delivering the papers, that's somebody, no matter if you're shy
or not, you have to talk to. Yeah, and there were individuals that worked for the register that that were in the
distribution part of that newspaper that did face charges years later. This idea though would make a lot of
sense here to me. Now he this poster is saying that to his knowledge those individuals were
checked and he believes extensively. But what I'm I'm not saying that it was those individuals in particular, I'm
just pointing out the idea that that would make some sense to me that these are people that we know would be out
there, number one. And again, it's back to the idea of humans hunting humans. Where do you go?
You if you know that there are your victim type is out there alone on these mornings,
you go cruising and it doesn't have to be a targeted Johnny Gosch like Paul Bonacci says. It could be any of those
paper boys. It could be any of them that are that fit those abilities, the vulnerability,
the availability. I don't think that it's happenstance that two paper boys go missing on a Sunday two years apart
from the same area delivering the same newspaper. It but it goes back to what you said
earlier, Captain. It's either the same individual or one crime inspired the other crime.
Without having any more information, the Eugene Martin case, the Johnny Gosch case,
and Mark Allen, all three of them roughly three kids, the same area, roughly six years in time.
Are they all connected? It's difficult to say. There's just not any There's just not a lot of information, not
enough to to say that they're connected and when you cross-reference the statements of
individuals who say that they saw Eugene Martin talking to someone and individuals that say that they saw
Johnny Gosch talking to someone, I don't know that those descriptions completely match up.
But back to the idea that it if it were some kind of ring or persons working together, that would make some sense as
well. The The thing with the Gosch case, the Martin case, and the Allen case, unfortunately,
they to me have similarities to the Jacob Wetterling case. Why did that case remain unsolved for so
many years? It's simple. There were witnesses in the Wetterling case. But it went unsolved because
unfortunately the killer had the great idea to bury the body. And the difference between the cases in
Des Moines, Iowa and the cases that took place at the same time period right down the road in
Omaha, Nebraska were that the bodies were found and that provided a crime scene, it provided physical evidence.
And in the John Joubert case, you had the champion. You know, we talk about the face of evil. We're looking
for this guy. This is the face of evil. Look for him. Find him. They had a description of
the suspect in the Eberle case and the Walden case. But what you had was you had the
the champion of justice. You had the adversary. You had the good versus evil. You had the side of good that stood up
and called the suspect a coward and said, "Why don't you pick on someone your own size?" And that is ultimately
what led to John Joubert getting apprehended. Identifying him as the killer because he
went out that day when he when he attacked the preschool teacher, he went out that
day looking to pick on someone his own size. He went out there to to show the police You know, you think I'm a coward?
I will go out and pick on someone my own size. But she spotted him and she said, "You
know, I think he looks like the guy you've been looking for in these child cases."
Now when you look at Johnny Gosch, Eugene Martin, Mark Allen, there's it's easy to argue and say that
they're all connected. At the same time, I try to stay water and a good example of that is this.
We know John Joubert, we know about his crimes in Omaha, Nebraska, but one of Omaha's most infamous cold cases
is that of another dead little boy, abducted and murdered. This took place back in March of 1986. John Joubert was
apprehended in 1984. So this case is of Richard Ricky Chadek who left a friend's house only to never
be seen alive again. His body was found eight days later. He was your typical 11-year-old boy. He
would have fit Joubert's ideal victim. This was a smaller 11-year-old boy. He was into GI Joes,
Legos, all that stuff. He wanted to be an astronaut. But on March 23rd, 1986, those dreams of becoming an
astronaut came to an abrupt end. He disappeared while riding his bike near his home. His bike was found in a
bank parking lot. And then seven days later his body was found. One strange part of this is when you
compare when he went missing March 23rd, 1986 and then his body is found March 31st.
During that time period, Mark Allen disappears March 29th, 1986 in Des Moines, Iowa. But the reason why I bring
up this cold case here of Ricky Chadek, this case is still unsolved. We know John Joubert didn't do it because he was
apprehended in 1984. If John Joubert was never caught for the murder of Danny Joe
Eberle and Christopher Walden, I think we would be sitting here 30, 40 years later and going this case is so similar.
It's got to be connected. It's got to be part of the series. But we know 100% that it's not. So I here I am, Captain,
sitting in the garage with you and all I am doing is delivering information that
that just creates more questions and no answers. >> Yeah, but isn't part of this like
maybe consciously or subconsciously we we want them to be connected because we don't want to face the reality that
there's more monsters out there than there's more monsters out there. Yes, but for me, it's a bit of a selfish
errand, right? It's It's It's comparing I wanted to look at these cases and compare them together in
hopes that it would lead me to some answers. And clearly it did not. It It's I'm taught time and time again by myself
to stay water. You got to stay water in these cases. Now I I do sit here too and
I really worry that we're never going to get any answers in Johnny Gosch's case.
I worry that we're not going to get answers in Eugene Martin's case. Um Are they connected?
It's It's very difficult to say, but what we do know all these years later is that in a matter of just
And sorry, I think I said six years earlier, but really it's just four years. Johnny Gosch goes missing 1982.
Des Moines, Iowa. Danny Joe Eberle abducted in Nebraska 1983 in September. Christopher Walden December of 1983 in
Nebraska. Eugene Martin 1984 Des Moines, Iowa. Mark Allen March of 1986 Des Moines, Iowa and Ricky
Chadek March of 1986 in Omaha, Nebraska. Well, in a lot of these cases I thought would have
more answers, especially with the true crime genre becoming more popular and some of these
things becoming re-examined by so many individuals, you hope that there's more information that came out uh on these
cases, but we're we're 10 years in and in some of these cases there has been little to no movement. Police continue
to work these cases, especially the Ricky Chadek case. There's been a lot of work on that in the last
>> [clears throat] >> One of these days my throat will be back to normal. Don't worry, I'll karate chop
it. >> Police continue to work these cases, especially the Ricky Chadek case. There's been a lot of activity, a lot of
work that's gone into Ricky's case in the past 10, 15 years. One thing that police have always said
in Ricky's case is the individual that had him in his possession either was a good
communicator or gained Ricky's trust somehow. There's some There's something some indicator of that
for police to come to that conclusion. Ricky's body was discovered on Easter Sunday, March 31st. He was found in a
field northwest of Omaha strangled. It was determined that he was kept alive for several days after his kidnapping.
His body was found down an embankment near 168th and Ida Street. His hair, clothes, and body were
all clean. Detectives say that he was kept alive, cared for, and even fed for several days. They believe maybe
even as much as seven days, and they're basing part of that off of how clean he was and that there was food
found in his digestive tract. Detectives found physical evidence at the scene, hair follicles. They have
submitted this information, these this evidence for testing, but unfortunately, it returned only a partial DNA profile,
not enough to enter into the national DNA database. A suspect has never been arrested in Ricky Chaddock's death.
Police are still looking for any leads in that case. If you know anything about Ricky's murder or have information, call
the Douglas County Sheriff's tipline at 402-444-6000. If you have any information in the
disappearance of Johnny Gosch, Eugene Martin, or Mark Allen, please contact the Des Moines Police Department at
515-237-1430. And there are a lot of people that have been critical of the Des Moines Police Department's work
or maybe lack thereof in the Johnny Gosch case. So, if you do not feel comfortable contacting the Des Moines
Police Department, look, I I want to point out something. I saw nothing but great work out of them in
the Eugene Martin case. But if you don't feel con- confident contacting the Des Moines
Police Department regarding those still unsolved cases, contact the National Center for Missing and Exploited
Children at 1-800-THE-LOST. >> [music] [music] >> Want to thank everybody for joining us
here in the garage each and every week for everything true crime. Check out truecrimegarage.com.
While you're there, sign up on the mailing list, and until next week, be good, be [music] kind, and don't litter.
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Missing Paperboys /// Chapter 6 /// The Lost Boys

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

In the early eighties middle America experienced tragedies that no parent could imagine. Newspaper boys were disappearing. They would step out into the dark of the early morning hours to deliver the daily news to their neighborhoods and some of them did not return. It started in Iowa and then moved to Nebraska. Kids were plucked off the street just a few steps into their routes and some have vanished forever. Johnny Gosch went missing from Des Moines, Iowa in September of 1982. In August of 1984, 13 year old Eugene Martin disappeared during his early morning Des Moines Register paper route. After Eugene vanished the Anderson Erickson Dairy company began printing black and white photos and bios on the sides of Milk Cartons distributed across the state of Iowa. In March of 1986 Marc Allen became the third boy to vanish from the streets of Des Moines.

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Brief Summary

The episode examines the unsolved disappearances of paperboys Johnny Gosch, Eugene Martin, and Mark Allen, and explores potential connections to a child trafficking ring.

Key points

The Disappearance of Johnny Gosch. On September 5th, 1982, 12-year-old Johnny Gosch vanished while delivering newspapers.
The Mystery of the Missing Boys. Johnny Gosch, Eugene Martin, and Mark Allen all went missing within five years in Des Moines.
John Joubert's Chilling Confession. While on death row, John Joubert admits to having a need to kill.
Noreen's Claims. Noreen Gosch insists Johnny visited her years after his abduction, raising questions about his fate.
The Original Narrative. The initial story of Johnny's abduction is crucial, yet often distorted over time.
The Mysterious Blue Car. Johnny was last seen talking to a man in a blue car, a detail that haunts the case.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

These claims remain highly suspect and controversial.

Discussing the credibility of Paul Bonacci's claims.

6:56WatchApr 22, 2026

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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